Re: The Long And Winding Road

1

Funny, I didn't see a category for poor, huddled masses yearning to breath free.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
2

Exactamundo.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
3

I can assure you that that cartoon doesn't actually cover all the pitfalls, but thank you for it anyway.


Posted by: Chris | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 8:46 PM
horizontal rule
4

Hey, how is Cala doing? I remember she excused herself for awhile to do something, but I can't remember what. In any case, I hope she's good.

I just made calls for Obama, put the kids to bed, and am listening to W-lfs-n's recent difficult listening jazz mix. His mixes are actually fun to listen to when there isn't other ungodly cacophony in your life.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
5

I'm also a little drunk. Its been a long day. I'm going to drink a glass of water, maybe two, and go to bed.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
6

Fuckin' Pirates.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
7

12-to-28 years and I could join in the bitchin' about the Presidential elections!


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 9:29 PM
horizontal rule
8

Too easy if you ask me.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 10:02 PM
horizontal rule
9

As if there isn't skilled labor that doesn't require a college degree.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
10

The "professional athlete" category is covered, ben.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 10:59 PM
horizontal rule
11

10: ben longs for an Indian man servant. Who are we to deny him the H-1B visa of his dreams?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 11:02 PM
horizontal rule
12

Kinder statt Inder!


Posted by: Tiny Hermaphrodite | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 11:06 PM
horizontal rule
13

The H-1B visa of my dreams belongs to Aishwarya Rai.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-25-08 11:06 PM
horizontal rule
14

The H-1B visa of my dreams belongs to Aishwarya Rai.

Hott Bollywood stars? [YAWN] Been there, done that.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 3:12 AM
horizontal rule
15

A bisexual friend, about to move to Massachusetts from Cambridge (the original Cambridge, you USian parochials) noted that if she were to meet and marry the love of her life when she was in the US on an 18-month student visa:

If the love of her life turned out to be a man, her student visa would be promptly cancelled by her marriage, but she would have a spouse's right to reside in the US, and after 3 years legal residence could apply for a green card.

If the love of her life turned out to be a woman, her student visa would be promptly cancelled by her marriage, but because the US federal government does not recognize same-sex marriage except for purposes of eviction, she would not have a spouse's right to reside in the US, and would in fact be promptly evicted as an illegal immigrant, because her marriage would be taken to be an intent to stay in the US beyond the legal period of her student visa.

(A legal marriage between same-sex partners in the US is recognized in the UK as a civil partnership, so her American wife would be legally able to join her in the UK.)

Even though all of this was strictly hypothetical, it still struck her as unfair...


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 5:15 AM
horizontal rule
16

1- It's the box in the bottom left corner. The one with the boot in the guy's ass.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:57 AM
horizontal rule
17

ha, one of the first threads i commented
so recalled myself in the midst of ogged fever


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:50 AM
horizontal rule
18

Why would we want to restrict the migration of unskilled labor into the US? The more the merrier, I say. Let's get to a billion, and show the Chinese how to race to the bottom for real. Everyone in the world has the right to become a US citizen, don't they?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
19

Let's get to a billion, and show the Chinese how to race to the bottom for real. Everyone in the world has the right to become a US citizen, don't they?

I'm not sure whether you're joking, HamLov, because it is the longstanding editorial position of the WSJ that there should be a five-word Constitutional amendment that reads "There shall be open borders."


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
20

I had no idea Hamilton Lovecraft was the same person as T.L. Leech. This is almost as surprising as the Mary Catherine=JBS and Lunar Rockette=Brock Landers revelations.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
21

Jesurgislac - that's not in fact true on a student visa. You can enter w/ "dual intent" on one of those, and getting married to a US citizen doesn't cancel it.


Posted by: matt (not the famous one) | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
22

21: Oh well, so this website got it completely wrong; and this one; and Wikipedia gets it wrong too: they all say you can't enter the US with an F1-student visa if you have "dual intent", because it's a non-immigrant visa only.

Well, the other two look kind of semi-official, so you should probably write them a formal letter telling them they're promoting wrong information, but you can edit Wikipedia yourself. Go for it. Don't forget even Wikipedia needs cites...


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:23 AM
horizontal rule
23

Or we could consider: whether the visa is revoked or granted, and whether one will be successful in proving the lack of immigrant intent to use it, are two different matters. Having a spouse in the U.S. creates a strong presumption of immigrant intent, but not an overwhelming or insurmountable one. It's like any other non-immigrant, non-dual intent visa in that regard; if one's spouse is in the U.S. and one is going to visit, it's generally recommended that one have proof of intent to return.

"Intent" is also something that is tied to the visit, not one's overall life plans. shiv crossed the border for a visit while we were filing the friggin' fiance' visa. Obviously, he had stated intent in the future -- but he entered as a tourist because his intent *on that visit* was to visit and return.

In any case, the visa is not revoked, and ICE doesn't move fast enough for the person to be deported in any reasonable time frame even if it were. One is also able to file for permanent residency immediately, not three years down the line; we sent off shiv's packet eleven days after we were married.

The worry is that getting married would create a presumption of immigrant intent that would not be able to be overcome, and in the same-sex marriage case, the real problem is that since there's no legal path, the person would be stuck if her visa isn't renewed.

If you think that's just semantics, it's really not. Being denied entry, being allowed to withdraw one's petition for entry, and being deported, and being out of status are *completely* different things.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:56 AM
horizontal rule
24

Jesurgislac, I'm a lawyer who works on immigration. If you'd read the 2nd link you gave more carefully you'd see that "dual intent" is in fact fine on an F-1 but that sometimes people fuck it up and think it's not. That's a big problem for people it happens to, but it doesn't mean that it's not a mistake. I'm afraid you're just wrong about the law. Some border patrol people get the law wrong, too, and that's a big deal, but it doesn't mean they're not getting the law wrong.


Posted by: matt (not the famous one) | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
25

"I'm afraid you're just wrong about the law. "

I'm afraid you'll have to take that up with the sources which I looked up, not with me, Matt: as I noted, you can edit Wikipedia yourself, for the rest, you'll just have to write a letter - and by the way, the second source that you assert says comfortingly that it's OK to get married on a student visa, I find says discomfortingly "Given these gray areas, F-1s student should avoid travel if possible or, where travel is necessary, should proceed with caution, until a change of status to H-1B takes effect."


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
26

Jesurgislac- you're also misunderstanding what's said in the linked form. That's not surprising- immigration law is hard. There are two issues here: first, can you get married and change your status on a student visa? Secondly, if you are on a student visa, intend to get married, leave, and come back, for the purpose of getting married, might you have trouble returning to the US? (Similar things apply for the H-1, so we don't need to go over them again.) If, like you, you don't understand immigration law you might not see the difference. But, here's the difference. Seeking an entry to the US (or any country- other countries have just as fuck up systems) is always different. But, if you're in the US on _any_ visa, you can seek to adjust your status and it doesn't affect that visa at all. So, in the US on a student visa, want to get married, get married, no problem at all. Same for getting an H-1. (Note that this is not the case if you entered on the visa waiver program. You can't adjust status on that.) But, if you're outside coming in, you have to say what your purpose is. On an F-1 your purpose is supposed to be studying. So, if you say, "I'm coming to work" or "I'm coming to get married" the border agent might refuse you. (Only might, mind you.) But if you just say, truthfully, "I'm coming to study" you're fine. Now, sometimes people fuck up and get their student visa canceled without knowing it and then can't get in. Why? Not because they had dual intent, but because they no longer have a valid student visa! Finally, please note that the section you quote in the end doesn't at all say what your first post says, but in fact supports my understanding of the law. So, no, I don't want to send them a letter. They are giving prudent advice so people don't get themselves in trouble, but that doesn't fit what you said at all at first. That was just wrong. You don't understand the law here and don't understand what the site you link to says. I'm sorry about that, but it's true. As for Wikipedia, I don't care about it.


Posted by: matt (not the famous one) | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
27

What complicates things is that it is perfectly legal to go from an F-1 to an H1-B. Which is a work visa. Students do it all the time. They meet people and get married, too.

It's okay to have the intent, while on an F-1, to work really hard and secure an H1-B or similar from an employer when you graduate so you can stay in the U.S. What makes it a little bit fuzzy is that it's not permitted to use the F-1 to settle permanently in the U.S., and if you don't secure an H1-B, you'd have to leave. What makes it a judgment call for the border guard is assessing whether you'll leave if the H1-B doesn't happen. Which is why if you're near the end of the degree program and actively looking for jobs, you should probably stay in the U.S. until your status is sorted out.

Like I said, "intent" is weird, and tied to the visit and visa.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
28

Note that this is not the case if you entered on the visa waiver program. You can't adjust status on that.)

You can if you get married, but you'll have to show that it was spontaneous (usually showing you had ties back home that were abruptly severed); just file the I-130 along with the adjustment package.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
29

Matt, actually, there are FOUR issues here, and the two I'm most interested in which are based on the point I was making in my initial comment, you just ignore.

Here are the two you're ignoring:

Third, can you get married to someone of the same sex and change your status on a student visa? Fourth, if you are on a student visa, intend to get married to someone of the same sex, leave, and come back, for the purpose of getting married to someone of the same sex, might you have trouble returning to the US?

Now, if you care to re-read my initial comment, you'll see that while I wasn't up on all the niceties of immigration law, I was aware that you can get married to someone of the other sex on a student visa and change your status. You think "that was just wrong"? Okay.

What I was saying, dear lawyer, was that the student friend who hypothesising that she might marry a man or a woman, would find that her marriage to an American woman would prove she had changed her intent to stay in the US, while at the same time not giving her any claim to remain in the US as a marriage to an American man would do. You think "that was just wrong"? Okay, but you're not actually convincing me you're thought about the same-gendered aspects of it...


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 1:55 AM
horizontal rule
30

What I was saying, dear lawyer, was that the student friend who hypothesising that she might marry a man or a woman, would find that her marriage to an American woman would prove she had changed her intent to stay in the US, while at the same time not giving her any claim to remain in the US as a marriage to an American man would do. You think "that was just wrong"? Okay, but you're not actually convincing me you're thought about the same-gendered aspects of it...

Somewhat related, we watched the debate with our same-sex neighbors who are getting married in California next month.

He almost had tears in his eyes when he described how his very conservative boss and wife were throwing him and his partner a big party in celebration of the wedding.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 5:47 AM
horizontal rule
31

Ok, so maybe BR and I got a little teary-eyed too as he was telling us about it.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 5:49 AM
horizontal rule
32

What I was saying, dear lawyer, was that the student friend who hypothesising that she might marry a man or a woman, would find that her marriage to an American woman would prove she had changed her intent to stay in the US, while at the same time not giving her any claim to remain in the US as a marriage to an American man would do.

Not the dear lawyer, but again, there's nothing about getting married that revokes or changes her status. If she stays in the country while studying, no problems at all. If she leaves and returns and they see the visa (which will not be revoked based on a marriage) and they say 'what's your purpose?' responding with "I'm coming here to study" will get her across the border. There is no mechanism that reports her marriage to the border guards, just like there was nothing that reported that shiv and I were married to the border guards in Canada when I visited last summer.

There's also nothing saying that even if they knew about marriage that would be grounds to bar her. I've traveled to Canada as a tourist since being engaged and married, and the most I've received was a little bit of hassle where they wanted to see I had a return ticket when I explained I was visiting my husband and in-laws (he'd traveled there ahead of me.)

If your friend had met the love of her life and they'd gotten married (perhaps so her spouse could come to the UK) that would have changed *nothing* in all likelihood, just like it would with a hetero couple. And that's why not understanding immigration law is important here, not just a nitpick; there's a difference between 'creates a presumption of immigrant intent if they know about it, that can be overcome fairly easily' and 'revoked and promptly deported.'

It is absolutely appalling that the federal government doesn't recognize same-sex marriages for the purposes of immigration; appalling enough that there's no need to invent reasons that it's worse than it is.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
33

Cala!

Yes, the immigration system sucks, but how awesome you were successfully baited back!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
34

my theory for successful international marriages that could work out well is that it's that if they will choose to live in some other third country, that way everything, hardships and joy, is like shared kinda balanced


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
35

My parents tried to do that in religion. She was raised Catholic, he was raised Methodist, so they went to an Episcopal church for a while after they got married. Of course, they quit after the priest stole Mom's sewing machine and they realized they were pretty much atheists anyway.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
36

33: Fucking Becks, eh?

34: Ha. I can see that being plausible from one perspective, on the other hand, having two people, instead of one, be completely disconnected from everything that is familiar (and unemployed) sounds like a recipe for having two insane people trying to make a marriage succeed.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
37

On the immigration tip: if you marry a man from southeast asia, it's best to double-check if he has any felony conventions before he knocks you up and then goes to visit family in Bangkok, lest you end up with a fairly complicated set of choices about what part of the world to live in.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
38

i mean maybe the new environment for both partners would make them feel more like united before any hardships and realize that they are really a family now, if everything is heavily one-sided the immigrating partner would feel uneasy and stressed all the time, i doubt that the marriage will work then
well, if nothing matters more then they are for each other, then maybe it works of course


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
39

They quit after the priest stole Mom's sewing machine....

That's the weirdest clerical scandal ever. I'm sure that your parents' story is just the tip of the iceberg, too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
40

37: Ow.

38: My experience has been that having one person relatively less stressed makes everything easier to handle. (N.B. the less stressed person is not always the non-immigrant.) There's so many little details that are made easier by having one person already familiar with it: getting a bank account, a credit card, a driver's license, etc. A shared sense of hardship could make them feel more united, but I'm cynically seeing double the confusion, double the newness, and double the immigration fees.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:24 AM
horizontal rule
41

the less stressed person is not always the non-immigrant
sure it could be, depends on one's temperament
the outside stress is kinda a manageble thing wherever, but if one feels stressed inside the relationship it fails imo
well, that's my opinion and why i can not imagine myself in this situation
i know pretty many of my friends, my sisters' friends, my own sister, who are married to foreigners, i see usually that they live stress-free materially, they adapt quickly and feel comfortable within the culture accepted them, but always feel homesick and can't say they are happy like a 100%
it's strange to try to communicate with their children speaking other languages and i usually like to scold them for not teaching our beautiful language to their kids if they allow thier kids to forget, i ask them don't you feel you deprive them of something dear?
well, this kind of stress within relationship i meant
so if these feelings are also not exclusive for one partner only, then more understanding and less frictions maybe, just hypothetically


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:51 AM
horizontal rule
42

their


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
43

ha, 43!
hopefully nothing unlucky happens today, now it became like ominous cipher


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
44

my theory for successful international marriages that could work out well is that it's that if they will choose to live in some other third country, that way everything, hardships and joy, is like shared kinda balanced

I think this is excellent advice -- advice that I would very much like to pass along to UNG and his bride-to-be...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
45

You'd rather have UNG in Borneo than Germany?

We've lived in both countries, and I'm a lot less comfortable there than she is here, so there's that. The US is a pretty big country, and it's easy enough to find oneself in a different region, where all the benefits of 'together against the world' can be had, without all the 'now how do you do this?' stuff.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
46

In a perfect world, I'd prefer to have UNG in Guantanamo. Barring that, Borneo is as good as anywhere. If I had their best interests at heart, I might say Germany -- where he could feel superior and in control.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
47

Jesurgislac, since I have in fact published a law review article on same-sex marriage and immigration you can be sure that I've thought about the issue. That doesn't change the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. (Cala gets the points right above, too.)


Posted by: Matt (not the famous one) | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 2:28 PM
horizontal rule
48

47 - That's nice, Matt, but would have been more effective had you summarised your article in 21, 24, or 26, rather than just repeatedly telling me that the sources I was looking up got it wrong. Ever noticed how on the Internet an unspecific appeal that "I'm the expert, I'm right, you're wrong!" doesn't actually sell all that well, whereas detailed explanations do?


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-28-08 5:00 AM
horizontal rule
49

That's unfair, Jes. He gave detailed explanations of why you were misreading the immigration information, and how it actually worked. He didn't start out by saying 'and so you know I'm not saying you're wrong because I hate gay people, I actually published an article on same-sex marriage', but surely that shouldn't need to be said.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-08 7:23 AM
horizontal rule
50

That's a straw man, Cala. But thanks for playing.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 09-30-08 6:43 AM
horizontal rule