Okay, so if you want an adequate replacement, what is it you want the candidate word to convey that "gay" as an insult conveys? And can that desired effect be separated from the homophobia?
(In the video clip, I would think "lame" might be an adequate substitute. But then that's just insulting to a different demographic.)
Rereading the original post - the reason you don't see men in Jazzercise type classes is because all those women in tight fitting clothing bending over, stretching, and so forth might lead to popping a boner which would be difficult to conceal given the circumstances.
I'm impressed that "this ad is gay" isn't the first comment on that YouTube video.
5: Actually, it is! "this p.s.a. is so gay". #3 is "being gay is a sin".
XKCD continues to be right.
4: off by more than a decade. Some guys just retain their virility better than others, I guess. Or mature slower.
togolosh,
Oh my gosh - did you think the point of an athletic supporter was to support the testicles? My goodness, that's so sweet. Ah, the youth of today, re-learning the lessons of the past one at a time.
I mean how do you think all we manly men prevented the woodies in the huddle with all those cute butts around us?
In the video clip, I would think "lame" might be an adequate substitute. But then that's just insulting to a different demographic.
Being lame is a disability, not a demographic. Were I in fact missing a leg, I wouldn't find it insulting to note the reality that hopping around on one leg is lamer than having two. At least until the new bionic super-prosthesis was developed, at which point I guess I'd no longer be lame.
And the cup, to prevent getting racked in baseball? Not after puberty. Why do you think the basketball uniforms got so baggy? Cause the players stopped wearing supporters and they were getting too aroused by the cute buns.
Shoot, from a marketing standpoint the NBA should be selling the sex appeal not hiding it, but they have made a marketing decision that teh gay would sell worse than teh baggy shorts.
Jock straps are gay. I'm sure there are many web sites, with photos, devoted to this truth.
10: But the point, oh bipedal boy, is that it is not about what you imagine you would feel. Or are you seriously saying we should bring back 'dumb' meaning unable to speak and gimp and spas and all those other technically correct descriptives?
12: Jock straps are gay. I'm sure there are many web sites, with photos, devoted to this truth.
Oh yes, I'm sure that you are sure.
Note to self: Wear a cup to next Jazzercize class.
Note to self: Wear a cup to next Jazzercize class.
Dude, you don't want to introduce any potential projectiles in that environment.
"Spaz" describes some people just so perfectly.
Also, this thread is totally fruity.
"Ponce"; meaning, literally, a pimp, but carrying an implication of unmanliness. Adjective form "poncy".
"That's so 16-y.o. boy with a cheesy mustache."
That's so awesome.
I was not aware that that is the literal meaning of "ponce".
I thought it meant something like "fag".
22: In usage, it does (presumably because of the near-homophony with "poof") but the meaning is definite - etymologically, "pensionnaire", French for someone who lives without working. Apparently the OED has the sense of "homosexual" as early as 1932 (cited to Auden!), but the main sense was "pimp" until really quite recently.
I PINE FOR DAYS OF YORE WHEN MEN WERE MEN AND GAYS WERE GAYS AND EEK DON'T TOUCH ME I'M OFF TO SWIM!
I PINE FOR DAYS OF YORE WHEN MEN WERE MEN AND GAYS WERE GAYS AND THE TWAIN MET SHAMEFULLY BUT LUSTFULLY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
23: and yet "pensioner" and "ponce" not really the same things at all! (Well, I guess they could be.)
I am struggling to discern whether 25 is Ben's proposed modification on behalf of Opinionated Ogged or rather is Ben speaking on his own behalf.
The only one I'm interested in meeting shamefully and lustfully behind closed doors is you, Di.
Being lame is a disability, not a demographic.
this is a weird distinction. What does it mean?
23: If you're going by the OED, dsquared, the OED doesn't mention "pensionnaire" at all - it says "origin uncertain," with the most plausible origin being from French "Alphonse."
I'm going to start referring to the pimps in my neighborhood as "Alphonse."
With you there is no shame, apo.
23: and yet "pensioner" and "ponce" not really the same things at all!
I think the British stereotype of pimping relies less heavily on violent thuggishness than the American, and more on the 'living off money you didn't earn yourself' aspect of the whole thing, which is where being a pensioner comes into it. An American pimp is out there cutting people, or whatever; they're bad people, but not stereotypically lazy more than criminals generally.
So, a British pimp is thought of as unmanly because they're not working, while an American pimp is putting in the effort being violent, and so remains more butch, despite the ostrich feather-plumed hats and such.
34: I thought the core of the US pimp stereotype is that the pimp has control over women and uses it to make money. You can see why people find this manly and enviable.
This is a solved problem: "ghey" and "gay" are pronounced as differently as "merry" and "marry", right?
YOU KNOW IT'S HARD OUT HERE FOR A PERSON OF MY PROFESSION!!!!
34: Well, I was thinking more of the fact that when British folks say "pensioner," I think old guy on the Costa Brava, and when they say "ponce," I think of a fellow rather too light in his Prada mules.
Couldn't we just replace "that's so gay" with "that's so white"? I'd be okay with it.
The traditional, family-values pimp pimped on his mother and sisters.
Mighty white of you, apo.
I'm white where it counts, baby.
That would be the Census Bureau database, of course.
Semi serious question: If it was ok for the usage of gay to morph from happy to homosexual man, why is it evil for the usage to morph into a meaning of stupid. Does a word, once it becomes associated with people, take on such an identity that it can never be changed again? I thought that was one of the reasons that "black" was deprecated as a term for race, due to other well established meanings that then unduly influenced perceptions of race.
Couldn't we just replace "that's so gay" with "that's so whiteSWPL"? I'd be okay with it.
44: It wouldn't be a problem (I don't think) if the connection with 'gay' meaning 'homosexual' were really dead, but I don't think it is -- things that are called 'gay' in the 'stupid' sense still have a connotation of effeminacy. Like, I think 'gyp' is pretty harmless at this point -- I don't say it, but I don't look funny at people who do, because I think mostly they're honestly not thinking of, and aren't even aware of, an underlying stereotype of thieving Roma. Same with welshing on a bet; I'm part Welsh, although a ways back, and I don't think most people who use it are thinking about the well-known fact that the short, dark, dirty, people found living to the west of England are notorious for not paying up on their obligations; at least in the US (I don't know about the UK), the association with the slur is so dead that there's no harm in it.
On the other hand, "Boy, he really jewed you down," would make my jaw drop, even from someone who could make a convincing case that he was just using a convenient word for "haggled tenaciously", and didn't mean anything about actual Jews by it -- the stereotype is still live enough that the association is harmful. I'd put "gay" in the same box.
I think homosexuals should vote and decide to either be gay or queer. They can use one of those words to describe themselves, and the other should be released back into the language for use as a pejorative, free of homophobic overtones.
I, myself, am standing here with a large bundle of sticks I've bound together for use as firewood, and am absolutely flummoxed about how to properly refer to them.
James MacDonald at Making Light mentioned the other day that the crew of the US naval vessel "Ponce", named after a city in Puerto Rico, have sometimes had problems on shore leave in the UK, wearing their hats with their ship name into pubs...
So it is the active stereotype that is the sticking point. That makes sense. I'm sure that there are other idioms that were very offensive to someone a long time ago that have lost the offensive part, if not the meaning.
On the other hand, "Boy, he really jewed you down," would make my jaw drop,
I remember hearing this as a kid and always thinking it was "chewed," which kind of makes no sense of course. It was a bit of a shock to learn what the real saying was -- and then to mentally try to place from whom I'd heard it all those years!
Currently acceptable substitutes:
"That's mighty whitemouse of you."
"I'd never dream of welshingw-lfs-ning on a bet."
"That is so totally gay gheyogged."
I think homosexuals should vote and decide to either be gay or queer.
Ah, but you see, "queer" is used in addition to "gay" for the specific purpose of including non-homosexual sexual and gender-related minorities: bisexuals, transsexuals, etc. So, sorry, but we get to keep both words.
I vote that if our goal is to use a term that will offend the fewest people we just use "ogged." It would only offend one person and he's not here anyway and his strong desire to make fun of effeminate men can go fuck itself in its super-manly ear.
Oh, the sweet sweet pwnage!
Sorry, Robust.
53: Also, "rear" has two of the letter "r".
US naval vessel "Ponce"
Oh, please. As any fule kno, swabbies are homos. Just look at the Village People. 2nd biggest hit? "In the Navy". Nuff sed.
47: Queer having, though, a different freight of meanings associated with it within the community, if you will. "Gay" is generally a pretty straightforward attribution of sexual orientation. Queer implies not only a radicalness of politics and sexual preferences (i.e. beyond which gender you prefer, but how you like to do it), but is closely related to a whole bunch of deconstructed gender norm ideologies and so on, and hence queer theory etc. There are gay Republicans, but I'd wager not queer Republicans, at least not in public.
Pwned on preview, but what the hell.
"That is so totally gay gheyogged."
oggpwned by a breeder? Totally not my day.
Sexual references to Ogged's tufty Middle Eastern ear are over the line, Robusto. Normal queers all the way back to the veldt have been disgusted, not aroused, by tufty Middle Eastern ears.
Hey, maybe y'all can help me with a question I could not answer about 28 years ago.
The sister of my then girlfriend asked me this: when one says "that sucks," meaning 'that is bad,' specifically what is it that the 'that' is sucking? Cause, as she said, sucking is usually a good thing, no?
I'm still stumped on that one.
The bad thing. The bad thing sucks.
Sucking is only "usually" a good thing if you think that there's only one thing which "suck" might possibly mean (and if you are prurient, not that there is anything wrong with that!) and everything else must mean something pretty closely analogous to that.
specifically what is it that the 'that' is sucking
Did Unfogged have a BJ thread, or was that only on Bitch Phd and Twisty?
Patriachical and hetereonormative is our language.
Hey perv, I'm pretty sure she must have been referring to a babe suckling at its momma's breast, so you leave my Mom out of it. I'm sure I don't know otherwise.
But really, huh? Like in simple English for the dummy.
In Mark Twain it was eggs that were sucked. However, Twain was often forced to clean up his language, and we can assume that it was something else that was being sucked in the mining camps of California.
Some kind of enormous metaphorical tick or mosquito. A Weltmosquito.
But TLL, most people who use the term 'that sucked' are into oral sex, no? And someone not into it wouldn't want to refer to it, would such a fictional person never existing in this world?
But TLL, most people who use the term 'that sucked' are into oral sex, no?
So they MUST be talking about it!!!
Oh, yeah, "your Gramma sucks eggs." I remember that.
Oh, so this started as basically a 'yo momma' reference?
Oh.
It doesn't make much sense without the 'yo momma' part. I think my job is to set everyone straight on that.
But sucking eggs means something else
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/42/messages/770.html
"Pardon me my good man. I hesitate to interrupt your ghetto slang but I believe you have made a common mistake. Stating "You suck" is a perfectly fine pejorative but when you state "that sucks" it loses all meaning. I hope you will refrain in the future. Carry on."
And someone not into it wouldn't want to refer to it
Read the Bitch PhD thread on BJs. Very enlightening in that regard.
72: TLL
Yeah, that does make sense. I'm gonna have to go with my theory that "that sucks" came from "you suck," but trying to insult a situation doesn't work very well.
Now let's get to work on "this is sucky." See this is one reason I tended towards science and math. They make more sense. People, not so much.
I thought it was Mexico, sucking jobs, with the aid of the suctioning power of NAFTA.
Fifty years ago it was a perversion (or so I'm told). Those crazy people of the past!
Since this is the frivolous Friday thread, also known as the "fiddling while Rome burns" thread, anyone else hear what is arguably the world's oldest dirty joke?
Adam to Eve: "Stand back! We don't know how big this thing is gonna get!!"
It's the weltmosquito.
It can also be the way depression or difficulty seems to suck at the spirit, making everything seem weighty and heavy.
Tripp takes this kind of pre-pubescent delight in the *naughtiness* of sexual references. Reminds me of sixth grade when all the sophisticates found ways to heavily emphasize the verb "come" when used in ordinary speech.
In Twain it was "Anyone who would do that would suck eggs", and it was an insult. It's hard to work Granny into that.
What did Nero play on his fiddle when he fiddled while Rome burned?
There ain't no fighter pilots in the Navy,
Oh, there ain't no fighter pilots in the Navy!!
They float around in little boats
Making love to sheeps an' goats!
Oh, there ain't no fighter pilots in the Navy!
The last time this came up I suggested "candyass."
He played a tune to charm the milk from a maid's breast, though baby she had none.
PGD,
I assure you, I like seeing a football to the groin as much as the next person, but these puerile jokes do nothing for me. I asked for academic reasons, that is all.
Now are you saying that when people say "this sucks" they are referring to melancholy? In this day and age? Perhaps a person here or there, but I doubt that is what most people think of.
Tripp- not definative
http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/mifsckbvrynstsfyng.shtml
Cala,
Candy ass is good, really good. Is it from the military? I think they've solved many of these problems of needing just the right word years ago. Plus candy ass doesn't refer to any actual existing set of people. As far as I know.
87 - I actually use candy-ass regularly in conversation. But there most definitely is a hyphen in there. A punctuation penis penetrating "ass" if you will.
Speaking of origins of derogatory words, on Wednesday night I overheard a conversation about how since the yiddish word schvartze just means the color black, it's not offensive to use it to refer to people. I restrained myself from responding, because I didn't know the person saying it, but now regret my restraint.
90: TLL
Most excellent. I swear all the answers are already on the internet, you just have to know where to look. Thanks! Now I need to try to get in touch with my ex-girlfriend's sister and answer her question.
According to the Kinsey report
ev'ry average man you know
much prefers to play his favorite sport
when the temperature is low
but when the thermometer goes way up
and the weather is sizzling hot
Mister Gob for his squab,
a Marine for his queen
a G.I. for his cutie-pie is not
Cause it's too too too darn hot
It's too darn hot
It's too darn hot
Just look at the Village People.
I've always heard that Felipe (the Indian) was the only original Village Person who was actually gay. The rest of them just had characteristically bad taste in outfits.
Friday YouTube hilarity: John McCain in Steamboat Willie.
I saw the Cowboy at the premier party for a high-budget gay porno a year or so ago.
I saw the Cowboy at the premier party for a high-budget gay porno a year or so ago.
Bave,
That might be show business though. If you are a 'type' ya gotta go with it.
For example I've just snagged a couple gigs which required a guy who looks like he could have a heart attack. You have a look, you go with it. It doesn't mean I'm actually
Having jumped ahead since comment 50 or so, what's wrong with "fey"? As a substitute for gay in the sense apparently called for. It has an affectionate tone; is that wrong?
99 - yes, it's wrong. We hates the candy-assed. We hates them.
things that are called 'gay' in the 'stupid' sense still have a connotation of effeminacy.
Really? The girls in the Ad Council ad are using it in the common pejorative sense and it doesn't seem to connote effeminacy.
My cousin's name is Fay. Not that one, the other one. Her sister.
That might be show business though. If you are a 'type' ya gotta go with it.
Oh, sure. There were a number of non-gay dudes there that night, including the guy whose date I was.
The Village People played a fund raiser for a AIDS charity I entered data for in the early 90s. (I got in free.) It was clear that they knew who their core audience was, and wanted to maintain a good image with that audience, even if they are not gay themselves.
Why do "we" need to find a replacement for an insulting use of the word "gay," any more than we need to find, say, a substitute racial epithet now that the n-word is out of style?
Ogged initiated the question. And he felt the need to find a new insult because he is in tune with the true beating heart of social conservatism.
106: Because they call it "making fun" for a reason.
I also endorse "candyass."
I WILL NOT RUN IF NOMINATED, AND IF ELECTED I WILL NOT SERVE.
110 Ya gotta hava hyphen. Otherwise it sounds like you're saying "canned yass" and nobody here will so much as look at anything but organic artisanal yass.
But worrying about whether candyass is hyphenated is so ogged.
I thought it was Mexico, sucking jobs, with the aid of the suctioning power of NAFTA.
Oddly, I made reference to "the giant sucking sound" earlier today.
When I was a girl, we also said "that's so faggotized" with the same meaning as "that's so gay."
When I was a girl, I said, "How queer!" to describe things that were not homosexual at all, but strange, until my mother made me stop. I think I was reading too many older British novels.
You are so delightfully weird, AWB. I never tire of you. In earnest, I say.
116: Acceptable substitute:
"How queerpassing strange!"
Oddly, I made reference to "the giant sucking sound" earlier today.
I did so last night. Follower.
119: Yeah, well I *made* a giant sucking sound.
121: Nice job outing us, dumbass.
113: But worrying about whether candyass is hyphenated is so ogged.
Well, thank god someone said this! Because that guy used to give me shit for hyphenating-when-unnecessary, and I was trying to say something serious, dammit.
In other words, I don't think I'm able to make "ogged" the new "gay."
In other words, I don't think I'm able to make "ogged" the new "gay."
I didn't think you were able. That's why I entrusted the task to others.
Heterosexuality is totally gay.
I hear you punk it out for free.
Happy National Coming Out Day, you crazy queers!
129: AWB, partying like the pre-1973 APA!
When I was a girl, I said, "How queer!" to describe things that were not homosexual at all, but strange, until my mother made me stop.
There was a children's series of mystery stories, with a character who tapped her braces when she was thinking, called "Something queer is going on."
I do not understand her. I could not tell what she would be at yesterday. What is her character?--Is she solemn?--Is she queer? Is she prudish? Why did she draw back and look so grave at me? I could hardly get her to speak. I never was so long in company with a girl in my life--trying to entertain her--and succeed so ill! Never met with a girl who looked so grave on me! I must try to get the better of this. Her looks say, 'I will not like you, I am determined not to like you,' and I say, she shall.
LB, the word in kindling.
I once had a T shirt that said, in the nicest light blue script over the breast UCLA sucks and then on the back, blockish letters in a color I now know to be Muted Cardinal, but Stanford swallows.
I am now working on a pitch to MTV Europe for a new series of "Ponce my Ride".
116: I occasionally think "how queer" to mean "how peculiar", but mostly keep myself from saying so aloud.
I occasionally think "how black" to mean "how dark in color".
||
Atrios and Josh Micah Marshal are suggesting that the Rove people now managing McCain's campaign have done him more harm than good. It may be that he won't lose any worse than he would have, but he seems certain to come out of this with his reputation and his self-esteem both destroyed.
JMM seems to be asking whether this is a Rove-Bush vendetta against McCain. My own theory is that the Republicans want the Democrats to be stuck with cleaning up their messes.
I don't remember a Republican campaign in a long time where the surrogate missed the message so often. It was also Rove and his people who forced Palin on McCain, and her problems were evident from the beginning. I don't see how a Rove candidate who Rove wanted to win could have messed up the "suspending the campaign" trick as badly as he did, or could have fumbled the bailout question as badly as he did.
On top of that, the campaign seems intended to delegitamize Obama's Presidency and leave the Republican voters in a state of violent rage, and that's something I think that Rove would do.
|>
Woops. This is actually on topic on the above thread. Sorry guys! Continue to be non-gay.
re: 134
I'd watch that. With car advice from a Max Headroom style disembodied CGI zombie Quentin Crisp...