This sounds like the set-up for a Disney movie, except that it would end with you marrying a jolly lumberjack with ten rambunctious children who needed a mother.
What was that John Belushi movie where he's playing Mike Royko falling in love with a wildlife biologist? Like that.
SORRY I VOTED FOR SARAH BARRACUDA
I'm going to spend the next two years trying to figure out something to do besides canvass and phone. I only put in about six hours all put together, but each hour was preceded by hours of dread.
Only some lumberjacks dress in women's clothing.
I have mental and emotional room for about one attentive, personally engaged conversation a day. I just don't want to be warmly involved with every goddamn person I interact with; it sucks the life out of me.
It is nice to know that other people feel that way (though, this being unfogged, about half the people here will probably say the same thing).
The mere thought of it horrifies me but I am honest-to-gods going to try to make myself do real volunteering in 2012. I did do election-day door-knocking in 2004 but it was just GOTV reminding of Democrats to go vote, not trying to persuade people. It's the face-to-face persuading that I think would leave me a wreck.
My time (not a huge amount) of doing this over the past several elections has convinced me that if I had any kind of sales job or other talk to/persuade the random public gig that I'd be an alcoholic within a month.
Teaching is, for me, like standing in front of twenty-five people for two hours, three times a day, whom I've sworn to love. I cannot then be asked to also be pleasant and engaged with strangers and shopkeepers.
I said elsewhere that I'd rather go to the dentist than canvass. This isn't quite true, hour-per-hour, but going to the dentist doesn't bother me much and I have an enormous comparative advantage in that. If I could make my living as a dental proxy and have a tooth pulled every week for someone else, I'd do it.
I said elsewhere that I'd rather go to the dentist than canvass.
I'd choose being beaten with a stick over knocking on doors. But I'm pretty hermit-like in real life.
8 Being an alcoholic isn't all that bad.
I'm with you. After a few times I was able to canvass fairly well. I was no longer terrified when someone answered the door and relieved when no one did. In fact, after I hiked up one quarter mile driveway, I caught myself thinking "Man, there better be someone home after this hike."
But even after I learned to do it, and was ok doing it in the moment, it drained the hell out of me. when the three hour shift was over, I was basically useless. And I didn't even have people flirting with me.
I totally agree about door-to-door canvassing. I hate phone banking, too.
Making up the little highlighted maps used to send canvassers out was pretty fun, though. (That was the procedure for Kerry in Allentown, PA, anyway, I don't know if they did it the same way this year. Maybe it's all computerized now.)
||
Man, the bandwagoners are swarming. Tom Friedman today. And the all have helpful advice, if only to explain that Obama is in a good place to smack the Negros down the way they deserve.
Obama isn't punk any more. He sold out.
|>
I'm pretty extroverted in general. Knocking on doors actually sounds more appealing than making phone calls. The phone calls seem like the worst job ever to me.
Heebie is volunteering to do the door knocking. Someone be sure to remind her in four years.
Phone banking is much worse than canvassing. With canvassing, you get body language feedback, and occasionally, it is positive--yes, I do feel like talking politics with you! And when you get negative body language feedback, you can simply stop the conversation sooner. All this provides emotional support that is missing over the phone.
I loathe canvassing, and I'm lousy at it. For one thing, I can't stand people trying to persuade me of things, and I project that feeling onto whomever opens the door. More important, unkind angry people really, really bother me, and they're out there in force; one unpleasant interaction is enough to send me into a funk for the rest of the day.
But I'm not in a swing state. If Texas is in the game in four years, I'll be the door-knockingest member of Unfogged, I promise. Or I'll go on a well-timed hiatus. One of the two, I swear.
While I was walking down the sidewalk doing GOTV election day, a woman pulled over in her car next to me, rolled down her window and said "Help! I can't find my poling place!"
Helping her was a great moment, like I got to vote twice.
Back on the topic of the original post, I agree with LB that it's really disconcerting, when you've built up a lot of defenses for just getting through the day that involve not smiling, not looking people in the eye, etc., that when you do, occasionally, treat strangers like human beings, people assume you're trying to have sex with them. (I'm guessing this disproportionately affects women.) This occurred to me yesterday when I realized that, because of the election, I haven't actively tried to have sex with anyone in the past year. So when I just walked out of my house and down the street and back yesterday, I got catcalled the whole way. I was wearing the shirt I'd slept in and an oversized pair of pants with sneakers, but I was sort of acknowledging humanity in a different way. It was unpleasant and stressful.
though, this being unfogged the internet, about half the people here will probably say the same thing.
Fixed.
I have mental and emotional room for about one attentive, personally engaged conversation a day. I just don't want to be warmly involved with every goddamn person I interact with;
Word.
On the other hand, learning how to *fake* attentiveness and personal engagement? Is an extremely valuable skill for a shy introvert. So congratulations.
Faking being extroverted/sociable makes parties hellishly exhausting, but I find this actually an improvement on lonely and boring, and the kind of parties which you are absolutely required to attend (workplace, etc) it works much better to show up promptly, be visible, have at least one cheerful, friendly, appreciative conversation with a still-sober senior manager...
...and then you can leave early and inconspicuously and the odds are that no one will be really sure just when you left, but they'll know you were there.
I'm sure that someone in a swing state will give a free place to stay to a willing canvasser, Heebie. And someone else will teach your arithmetic classes for you.
I just had two JW missionaries and was polite to the poor bastards. (As I've mentioned, the JWs I've known have been very kindly people.)
My arithmetic classes are very unique and I'm irreplaceable.
I have mental and emotional room for about one attentive, personally engaged conversation a day. I just don't want to be warmly involved with every goddamn person I interact with
Man, that stings. I was thinking that your comments here were mostly directed toward me, in that special sort of way.
OT, based on the people I'm surrounded by in this cafe: How the fuck did C.S. Lewis get to become thought of in large chunks of America as some kind of major thinker?
I don't think that your original interpretation of the multiplication table would be accepted outside Texas.
because of the election, I haven't actively tried to have sex with anyone in the past year.
What a relief that it's over, then.
Gonerill: Along with Chesterton, CSL is the official intellectual for bright Christians who have doubts. This has been true for at least 50 years.
Because of the election, I haven't actively tried to have sex with anyone in the past year.
Right decision, wrong reason. But a step in the right direction.
|| Los Angeles Meetup, take 1: let's meet at Masa in Echo Park at 8:00 pm. Order a few pizzas deep and thin alike, sex Motumbo, Monday-morning quarterback Prop 8. Adelante! I'll try to snag the couches.
in some MSNBC article i read about laconic extroverts, that exactly fits me, coz i'm not asocial, i'm just not very talkative, if people talk to me i'd talk, if not i wouldn't start a conversation
The only volunteering I did this election cycle was on election day; I spent the entire day, 15 hours, handing out lit at a polling place to remind people to vote for the Democrat for state Senate. Maybe it's because the contacts with most voters were so brief, but I actually found it easy and energizing. (Man did my feet hurt the next day, though.)
I had been told I might be knocking doors in the middle of the day and was relieved when that didn't happen, but I think my two years as a Mormon missionary taught me how to have pretty intense interactions with strangers all day and not take it to heart too much. Or, maybe I'm just wrong when I think of myself as an LB-style introvert.
but I think my two years as a Mormon missionary taught me how to have pretty intense interactions ...
And what dog sounds mean it's time to leave quickish-like, I suspect.
29: Noooo! Not a relief! A CURSE. A VILE CURSE.
No on 8 had so much money come in at the end that they hired up phone banks to send people to the polls and sent all their volunteers to stand 100 feet away from polling places.
That's mostly ineffective, but so is all canvassing until viewed in the aggregate. I had a couple of persuades -- one woman wearing a Toby Keith T-shirt angrily said, "I don't want them teaching it in the schools!" and when I explained that they weren't going to, she said, "Oh, okay, I'll vote against it. They shouldn't take away anyone's rights."
I also explained to one woman that NO was how you voted if you're OK with gay marriage. And I gave No on 8 stickers to a ten-year old girl circling the rec center on her bike. She plastered one on her chest, pounded it on, and yelled, "I'm the future!"
That's awesome, Wrongshore. Democracy is all right!
You have summed up, in this post, exactly why I hate dating, online dating in particular.
Because it's easier to send an email than to approach a stranger, lots* of guys send me emails. But I imbue each one with such significance, as much as a stranger approaching me in the dark, that I sweat and fuss and try to make virtual eye-contact with each one. If I can't make that effort--because I spent the day at my retail job, for example, and I've used up all my daily allottment of smiling at strangers--I simply ignore the email.
I feel like I have only a few extroversion credits for the week, and sometimes they're gone by Monday. This makes me a horrible candidate for dating at all, and if I weren't occassionally lonely and/or horny, I would not inflict myself on the poor men of okcupid.
*"Lots" makes it sound like more than it is. In fact it averages out to about one a day, but this is still overwhelming to me.
NO was how you voted if you're OK with gay marriage.
I wondered if that might confuse people. Say yes to say no, say no to say yes.
She plastered one on her chest, pounded it on, and yelled, "I'm the future!"
Sometimes you just have to outlive the assholes. Sad but true.
38: I suspect that no on 8 really didn't understand what it was up against until too late. I can imagine a parallel universe where they had fewer resources, but trounced the yes crowd.
Man, that stings. I was thinking that your comments here were mostly directed toward me, in that special sort of way.
But they are! So long as you're several hundred miles or more away from me, and I don't have to actually talk to you in person ever.
40: When I was online dating, I made a point of posting pictures of me that made me look sort of ugly and fat. This had several positive consequences:
1. I got fewer emails and less social stress.
2. The ones who answered were actually interested in what I said.
3. Everyone who met me was pleasantly surprised.
4. I got laid a lot.
43: I wondered if that was what happened -- a "Come on, this is California! It can't possibly pass." reaction from the people opposing 8.
So long as you're several hundred miles or more away from me, and I don't have to actually talk to you in person ever.
Now I'm feeling bad.
One of my least favorite situations happened all the time in grad school and at research conferences of mathematicians, but definitely less so at teaching conferences: you have a table of 7-8 people eating a meal together, and they cannot sustain a goddamn conversation. Someone says something, and two people respond, and then everyone lapses into silence again. It's like the dinner table has enough people to trigger the introverts into staying quiet. It makes the meal so painful.
No, no. That was just for Goneril specifically. You, I'm happy to drink with whenever I can get out for an evening.
48: Hee. That happened at one of my field conferences until the very elderly British gentleman to my left and I realized we were both Baptists and we started bonding intensely, which made the silence of the rest of the table even more awkward. Gah.
gah, 48 can be so true if you aren't wary. The only defense is to identify a small group of people who can be relied on to blow off the usual dinners and go have fun instead.
I made a point of posting pictures of me that made me look sort of ugly and fat.
But I am sort of ugly and fat! That filter is already in place.
In my case it just means that the men who email me assume I'm desperate and would go out with anyone, even those who can't spell or who want to explain to me their intense relationship with god.
52: I don't think you're required to email people back who don't spellcheck. Unfortunately, one is not allowed to apply this rule to student emails.
one unpleasant interaction is enough to send me into a funk for the rest of the day.
The guy who insisted to me that Kerry would take away his guns still haunts me. Just a generic idiot yinzer (in the city), but very confident in his stupid, stupid belief about JFK's priorities.
55. "No no, Kerry isn't going to take away your gun. He's gong to take away your penis.
And give it to a Black man."
55: Did you tell him that Obama was running this time?
I suspect that no on 8 really didn't understand what it was up against until too late. I can imagine a parallel universe where they had fewer resources, but trounced the yes crowd.
From a distance, this was very much my impression. No polled very well early, got (semi-) complacent, and didn't have a good strategy for coming back in the final weeks.
Instead of donating $$, Google should have threatened to give wrong answers to anyone who voted Yes.
I have mental and emotional room for about one attentive, personally engaged conversation a day. I just don't want to be warmly involved with every goddamn person I interact with.
Wait, had I done canvassing I would have gotten to have attentive, personally engaged conversations?! You have persuaded me that I really need to do the canvassing next time. There must be a local election coming up that I could canvass for! Good Lord, I've taken to buying my breakfast every weekday morning just because the crew at Potbelly is so warm and interactive. Then I get to work and spend 8 hours yearning for someone to talk to...
48: At the lab where I worked there was a lab like that. Six people had lunch together almost every day and no one ever said a word.
A Finnish secretary happened to have lunch with them one day and said "I thought I was back in Finland". (True story. )
Potbelly has the best breakfast sandwich in the world. And such nice staff in Chicago!
Then I get to work and spend 8 hours yearning for someone to talk to...
Hey! What about all of us?
Also, the nice young man this morning explained to me how the oatmeal in the oatmeal chocolate chip cookie would counteract the cholesterol in the sausage, egg, and cheese. The most important meal of the day!
Hmmm, now I'm hungry. I try not to eat eggs two days in a row, though.
60: Do I want to know why? For comparison, most Unfoggers who meet me seem mildly disappointed.
63: I'm here, aren't I? I've been considering getting the voice recognition software, just so I could really talk to you guys!!
64: Those cookies are ridiculously yummy. Why isn't there Potbelly in NYC? And Waffle House, while we're at it? There aren't many chains I welcome freely to our shores, but the lack of those two make it impossible to say that we truly have everything we need here.
66: Wha????? I was not disappointed. Do I count for nothing? Do I?
I dunno if this is true but I have heard that extroverts get energy from other people and introverts get energy from being alone.
I know your description of feeling 'drained' is exactly how I feel after shopping for a half hour or so.
Your description of how some men respond to friendliness is exactly why I try to project friendliness first but then wait for a response from women. It is kinda like the convention of waiting for women to offer to shake hands and then responding to that.
Yeah, maybe this is chivalry, or old-fashioned, but as long as some men seem to think hitting on everyone is OK and I don't want to be like them and yet love connecting with women it is what works for me.
A Finnish secretary happened to have lunch with them one day and said "I thought I was back in Finland"
A Finnish(-American) guy of my acquaintance went back to the old country and was hanging out one evening with assorted uncles and cousins. He's pretty friendly and was eagerly engaging them in conversation until one of the uncles finally said, Look. Are you going to talk or are you going to drink?
No, no. That was just for Goneril specifically. You, I'm happy to drink with whenever I can get out for an evening.
This really isn't turning out the way it's supposed to.
69: Shh! I'm trying to lower expectations!
70: I think I get energy from connecting with other people, but it's anxious energy, and it irritates my sense of self. Like, I think I present as a really high-strung extrovert, chatty and energetic, but then I need a lot of time alone to calm down.
64:
I'm pretty sure dietary cholesterol isn't really a problem, is it? I'm not sure. For some reason my German/Polack blood has good cholesterol yet has high BP and tends to gain fat. I'm a mesomorph who gains fat.
So what do I know?
71:
Oh yeah. I totally bombed doing a dinner theatre comedy with a mostly Norwegian audience one night. At least I thought I did, until after the show a nice older woman came up to complement me. She said something like "You were so funny I could hardly keep from laughing!"
So some people are different and you can't always tell what they like.
73.1: Oh, er, right. What I meant was, as engagingand witty as AWB may seem on the internet, she was surprisingly somber and withdrawn in person. Starved, starved though I was for human contact, I found myself yearning to return to the solitude of my office and nervously checking my watch trying to decide how soon I could excuse myself without appearing tactlessly rude.
But I am sort of ugly and fat!
Some of us have actually been in a room with you, Ms. Pants-on-Fire.
62, 64: I also love how Potbelly's only charges 60% of the lunch cost for their PB&J sandwich if you order it for breakfast. Plus, they'll make a bacon and peanut butter sandwich when I feel like it. And chocolate malts for my afternoon snack! Geez, go Potbelly's. Now I'm hungry.
As for canvassing, I quite enjoyed it. But apparently I'm more social than I thought. Covering three or four turfs per day, Saturday and Sunday, wasn't really a big problem. It was a bit unpleasant leaving my city bubble of liberality and high education / few conspiracy theories, but I consoled myself with the realization that "If these are the people who we're convincing to vote for the black man, something must be going right." Over all though, people are pretty nice. I really did find the lower middle class white neighborhoods the least pleasant to canvass by far, though. They seemed to be the people who were the most pissed off that I dared to knock on their doors, even if they were already supporters. And they seemed to greet the idea of early voting as akin to caffeine-free Mountain Dew, just some pale imitation that has no place in this world.
Oh, and I forgot to say that telling a woman you don't know how cute she is is so totally wrong and stupid.
AWB, if I met you I think if you came across as a really high-strung extrovert, chatty and energetic, I'd mostly listen and non-verbally respond to that. What would happen then? If you ran out of steam I'd ask an open-ended question but if you were done I'd probably say some things myself. That is my style. I love hearing people's stories and usually I find that although I can be talkative I end up doing most of the listening, which I like to do.
I guess one of the reasons I can't imagine myself canvassing, either by phone or door-to-door, is that I don't answer the door unless I'm expecting someone, and I don't answer the phone unless I recognize the number. I'm really private about my home, which I got from my mother. She won't let anyone in the house unless she's had a few hours to plan for it.
In fact, right now I'm trying to decide whether to clean up the joint before I go out in case my post-election libido causes me to try to seduce the guy I've been hanging out with. Another part of me says, don't clean the house, because then you'll have an excuse to preserve this friendship from the ongoing disaster-laden tragedy that is your sex life. Sigh.
don't
extroverts get energy from other people and introverts get energy from being alone.
in my 'theory', except mean and not mean, people subdivide also into actors and spectators
two actors'd make a very loud couple i guess, when two spectators on the contarary a very quiet one, but if they observe things like outwardly and in the same interest field it would be also pretty harmonious duo
and there are f.e spectators of spectators, it's like watching ants maybe
don't clean the house
Is that what you call it?
and there are f.e spectators of spectators, it's like watching ants maybe
I think of Unfogged as a tropical fishtank, sometimes.
What would happen then?
That's how a lot of my interactions with men go. Most of the time, it's fine, because I can fill a conversation, but sometimes, when it goes on for multiple times spent with someone, it results in a really weird intimacy gap. My friend knows everything about what I think and about my life, and I know pretty much nothing about him.
One of the reasons I'm tempted to preserve this friendship I've got going now as a friendship is that he's just as over-sharing as I am. The first day we met, we talked about what we were working on in therapy and the things we like doing in sex, anxieties about the meaning of our work, etc., and we both commented on the pure glee we felt at meeting someone who also compulsively fills conversation with intimate detail. It's neat. I'd hate to ruin that by making things weird between us. (Things are already sort of weird, but not in a literally physical way.)
don't clean the house, because then you'll have an excuse to preserve this friendship from the ongoing disaster-laden tragedy that is your sex life
Don't clean the house. If you do decide to seduce him and bring him back to a messy place, you will have the great and abiding joy of knowing he will never expect you to clean for him. Indeed, perhaps he will associate the warm glow of first sex with the slightly cluttered condition of your apartment and forever after find the mess a turn on.
*CAveat: Taking advice from me regarding either sex or housekeeping is generally ill-advised.
I am on the phone or interacting with people all day. Sales is like that. When I get home, my wife and kids want to chat, find out how the day was, have adult conversation or personal time and all I want is some peace and quiet. Enough is enough.
I enjoy canvassing and phone banking when I have a reservoir of energy to do it well. It does require a much more chipper and bubbly personality than I naturally project.
It's really disconcerting, when you've built up a lot of defenses for just getting through the day that involve not smiling, not looking people in the eye, etc., that when you do, occasionally, treat strangers like human beings, people assume you're trying to have sex with them.
So true. My default public persona is somewhere between bland and closed-off, and I can always tell when I'm tired or relaxed enough to be careless, because I suddenly start getting really personal looks and comments. It's always jarring.
It makes me feel a renewed sympathy for library patrons who come up to the desk and shamefacedly confide that another patron is looking at them, and they know there really isn't anything that I can do about that, but perhaps...?
Bah. Makes you even more appreciative of the opportunities to interact with other human beings in non-creepy ways, though, as well as the thoughtful folks who have a decent level of awareness in looking out for others who are getting creepy levels of attention. I was impressed that the Obama campaign had a category on the neighborhood walking list that let you say "I am not comfortable contacting this person."
forgot the password to the word file, alas
otherwise would elaborate on my that spectating theory a bit
i liked LB's haircut btw, as flickr is like a part of the antwatching routine
Oh, and I forgot to say that telling a woman you don't know how cute she is is so totally wrong and stupid.
And telling a woman you do know how cute she is is even worse.
One of the reasons I'm tempted to preserve this friendship I've got going now as a friendship is that he's just as over-sharing as I am. The first day we met, we talked about what we were working on in therapy and the things we like doing in sex, anxieties about the meaning of our work, etc., and we both commented on the pure glee we felt at meeting someone who also compulsively fills conversation with intimate detail. It's neat. I'd hate to ruin that by making things weird between us.
Oh, get a roomsitcom.
Ooh, thanks for reminding me that picture was going up. Kai really is a charming, charming baby.
I think of myself as a cheerful, chatty person (too talkative, if anything), and I get energised by conversations and social interactions. But apparently I can often come across as standoffish in person. I think my default affect when abstracted in thought is a bit chilly. And I pretty much never get men chatting me up.
60: Do I want to know why? For comparison, most Unfoggers who meet me seem mildly disappointed.
I can't quite put my finger on it - just the idea that you've set up a pleasant surprise for these (near-)blind dates. "AWB has secretly replaced the dumpy-looking AWB in Brad's imagination with the quite presentable AWB of reality; let's watch!"
I think I present as a really high-strung extrovert, chatty and energetic, but then I need a lot of time alone to calm down.
This may be me, or at least the me of the past. Maybe not high-strung*, but certainly the other things, yet I was also renowned for going to parties to read the hosts' book collections (I know this last thing is commonly attested here).
* I once road-tripped to Notre Dame to go to a dance with a girl from HS, and was acting quite wild. A fellow dancer said later, "Boy, JRoth was hammered," only to learn that I was a teetotaller. "What!? No one is that much fun sober!" Note that this was kind of m-fun, and I'm not (much) like that anymore.
Kai really is a charming, charming baby.
Tell me about it. I came home in a foul, failed-feeling mood last night, and he was standing on AB's lap on the couch. He heard my voice, looked around to find me, and then buckled his knees in glee and beamed at me.
Something something family something home.
It seems to be Potbelly's corporate policy to interact with customers in the friend/acquaintance conversational mode rather than in customer service robot mode. 59 is exactly my experience as well.
94: Well, at least in my experience, there's something really disappointing when you meet someone who has posted a ten-year-old picture of themselves at exactly the right angle, or lied about their height and weight. Often, the person who shows up is attractive enough. I'm not terribly shallow about such things, and have happily dated short, balding, stout, older guys. But the dissonance says to me, "This is not someone who thinks women are shallow and that he has to get his foot in the door by lying," and that's a huge turn-off. When I've met someone who is slightly better-looking than his picture, I think, "This is not someone who expects me to like him for his looks alone," which is hot.
who has posted a ten-year-old picture of themselves
I don't understand this, at all. I can see people posting goofy or flattering pictures of themselves to get past the immediate ignore stage. But showing up for a date or whatever thinking maybe he/she won't notice I don't look anything like that? How can that not be starting off on the wrong foot?
How can that not be starting off on the wrong foot?
I'm thinking the reasoning is that starting off on the wrong foot is better than not getting a foot in the door at all. The blind-datee will likely stick it out for at least part of a date and with any luck will be so pleasantly surprised by the surprisingly impressive charm and with that s/he will quickly forget the disappointment. Alternatively, the person posting the 10-year-old photo still genuinely believes that image is accurate. It's hard accepting that you don't look as great as you used to.
But I'm not in a swing state. If Texas is in the game in four years, I'll be the door-knockingest member of Unfogged, I promise.
No need to wait. We've got a governor's race in 2 years. In any case, most of the blockwalking and phonebanking in Texas was for state and local races.
I'm thinking the reasoning is that starting off on the wrong foot is better than not getting a foot in the door at all.
Yeah, this makes sense to me as a look-at-my-profile sort of move, but you'd think somewhere along the negotiating a date conversation you'd have the chance to say `that's an old picture' or whatever.
I agree you could hope they'll get over the disappointment, but it seem kind of crazy. If you've talked/emailed with someone for a bit and seem to be connecting, are you really doing yourself any favors by having their first impression be that you've tried to pull one over on them?
99: I don't know what they're thinking. That's really the only thing that's made me totally reject someone on the first date. It's not that he's stupid, but that he said he was a PhD student and then admitted he never graduated college. Or that he said he was 5'10" and is clearly 5'4". Or his picture shows him fifty pounds lighter with brown, full hair and he's clearly not that in person. It's not that the person himself is unacceptable, but that he thinks he's unacceptable, and is expecting the force of his incredible personality to overcome the dissonance.
With one guy, it almost did, because he'd misrepresented his work and intelligence as far less than it was, even as he misrepresented his looks as far more, but I really couldn't get over that dissonance after three dates. It became increasingly clear that, although he was actually pretty interesting and awesome, he felt he had to buy my attention by offering me nice dinners and opening-night tickets to plays. I just wanted to hang out with him without all the obvious self-loathing, and tried to make that clear. But then another invitation would arise, and it was basically like being treated as if I was a prostitute. Under those circumstances, I just couldn't bring myself to sleep with him.
It's not that he's stupid, but that he said he was a PhD student and then admitted he never graduated college.
Not an impossible state of affairs.
One guy just had a picture of a small part of his face, but claimed the celebrity he resembled most was Daniel Day-Lewis. I had no idea what to expect, not knowing if that was some kind of self-deprecating joke. But then he showed up, and lo, he looked a helluva lot like a shorter, less wiry DDL. Reader, I slept with him.
AWB: I saw your profile and would like to meet. I am awkwardly tall and thin with somewhat odd facial hair. People who know me say I'm most notable for my honesty.
Texas update for the out-of-staters: We took back 3 seats in the Texas house -- you know, the Texas house that gerrymandered congressional districts per Tom Delay's instructions and flipped the U.S. House to the R's. The Republicans are down to a one-vote majority with one race still pending (25-vote difference, provisional and overseas ballots still to be counted). Two of the key races were won by fewer than 1,000 votes and another seat was held by 100, which makes it abundantly clear that all the voter reg and campaigning made the difference. Of course I wish that the margins had been bigger, but it's nice to have the hard proof.
Some heavily Latino counties went huge for Obama despite dire predictions from the Hillary folks during the primary. El Paso county, 80% Latino, 66%-33% for Obama; Hidalgo, 90% Latino, 70%-30%; Maverick(!), 95% Latino, 80%-20%; Starr, 97% Latino, 85%-15%. (I know y'all could care less about names of the particular counties; I'm just documenting them for the record.)
106: "You can fool some of the people all of the time..."
109: Fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again
108, 109: Giants still walk the earth, my friends:
"I think you may have noticed that Sen. Obama's supporters are saying some pretty nasty things about Western Pennsylvania lately."
"And you know, I couldn't agree with them more."
The Newseum has a really cool collection of front pages from Wednesday. A few of my favorite headlines:
(One of these things is not like the others.)
And then there are these:
Guess a change hasn't come quite everywhere yet.
you'd think somewhere along the negotiating a date conversation you'd have the chance to say `that's an old picture' or whatever
I had one guy tell me right off the bat that his online photo wasn't of him at all. He sent me his photo by email, which was of course less attractive than the one posted on his profile, although still plenty cute enough. I could not bring myself to go out with him, though, and kept thinking "who is this person you appropriated to represent yourself online? and what else are you hiding?" Too sketchy from the get-go.
114: Did you ever ask him for the other guy's number?
AWB: I saw your profile and would like to meet. I am awkwardly tall and thin with somewhat odd facial hair. The celebrity I most resemble is Daniel Day Lewis.
An old picture and a picture of someone else entirely strike me as qualitatively different. The former is beyond all bounds.
I wonder if there's much Cyrano-style internet dating; dumb guys having clever friends write their emails?
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In his first press conference, Obama disses Nancy Reagan.
And what former presidents is he consulting? He said he is "obviously" consulting former President Clinton and that he has spoken to "all of them that are living" adding, " I didn't want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing about, you know, doing any seances."Next up, Rahm Emanuel eats her liver.
A few more (they're kind of addictive):
The Newark Star-Ledger: "Obama Reaches the Mountaintop"
The Northern Virginian Daily (actually from Strasburg, on the border with W. Va., not the fake Virginia of the D.C. suburbs): "Dream Realized"
Interesting to see which ones went for the explicit civil rights references; lots of them use "historic."
I like the triple entendre of "Race is history" of the Beaumont (Tx.) Enterprise. (The race is historic, it's over, and race as a social construction is no more. I'm pretty sure the editor of the Enterprise didn't consider that last interpretation.)
The Forum (Fargo, N.D.) is the only one I've seen that actually mentions that he's black: "Obama 1st Black U.S. President." Apparently you have to spell it out for people who've never seen a black person IRL.
120 is a dig on Hillary via Nancy. It was Hillary who used to visualize conversations with Eleanor Roosevelt. Seems petty!
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Just imagine the worst, nastiest, most Rovian things a Republican could possibly do. That's what Coleman and the RNC are going to do in the Minnesota recount. Everything is going in a routine way, and they're already protesting.
Minnesota has a tradition of clean politics, but that's mostly because of a gentleman's agreement. As a result, Minnesotans are not terribly wary. Coleman has already convinced the state that Franken is just as creepy as he is.
"They're no better than we are" is the basic Republican ethical principle.
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I wonder if there's much Cyrano-style internet dating; dumb guys having clever friends write their emails?
From my brief (and utterly ineffective*) flirtation with eHarmony, I would have to say a great many would do well to consider it.
*It would appear that the highly scientific algorithm concluded that I would be especially compatible with un-/underemployed guys who are unfamiliar with basic punctuation or grammar. Reminded me of those career affinity tests they gave in (high? grammar?) school which tended to suggested I should become a bus driver or a carpenter. Both may well be right, but not going to happen.
"They're no better than we are" is the basic Republican ethical principle.
For the most part true. Not on policy, obviously, but in getting elected? Very few saints out there.
utterly ineffective*) flirtation with eHarmony
See, you were supposed to be flirting with the other customers, not the service itself. That's your problem right there.
48: Hell yeah. I hate hate hate tedious conference dinners trying to make conversation with socially inept academics. Yes I know it is difficult for all of us, but I gave you a nice easy opening, now just give me a goddamn reply and let's see if we can string this thing out till it's time to turn in. I'm certainly not the most extroverted person in the world, but having the ability to sustain a conversation is a skill everyone should have.
On second thought, scratch that. I do not want to read another of JE's screeds on Rovian hog bait. Republicans are always evil, and can only get elected by lying to the voters, who never agree with the policies being advocated or don't know what's good for them. I am in my happy place.
Reminded me of those career affinity tests they gave in (high? grammar?) school which tended to suggested I should become a bus driver or a carpenter. Both may well be right, but not going to happen.
it would allow for a great deal more conversation at work, though.
AWB,
Your stories remind me of how much I hated the blind date thing.
The whole expectation-mystery-illusion part at the start seems like it messes things up terribly. A long time before eHarmony there was 'computer dating' which near as I can tell is about the same thing - describe yourself completely and what you want and somehow this makes a match possible. Our campus and our Frat did this for awhile and I really didn't like it. It was only useful as an introduction tool and for me seeing someone in person and starting a conversation worked much better than an arranged meeting. Maybe I'm out of touch with the new way but the whole facebook thing seems like a bad idea to me.
125: For the most part true. Not on policy, obviously, but in getting elected? Very few saints out there.
Republicans, such as yourself, have convinced the media and the voters that it's for the most part true. Republicans, such as yourself, realize that they can't win honestly and have to cheat in various ways, for example by keeping people from voting. Republicans, such as yourself, need to believe that every single illegal, unconstitutional, incompetent, venal, insulting, destructive thing that the Bush administration did can be matched by something equally bad that the Clinton administration did.
That's their (and your) only possible defense. Because the Bush-Rove administration and the Gingrich-Delay Congress have been otherwise indefensible.
Minnesota has a long tradition of clean politics and Coleman is going to do his best end it. And for you, that's OK. Wonderful, really, because your party will gain. For me, it's not.
As you know, I don't value your presence here. Why should I?
it would allow for a great deal more conversation at work, though.
Good point. Although becoming a psychotherapist would be even better from that perspective. Plus, I'd get to hear people's crazy stories!
Every so often I find myself wondering if "John Emerson" isn't really a pseudonym adopted by my dad. You really do sound alot like him.
127:
W. Breeze,
I hear ya. I'm an extrovert programmer, meaning I am a completely odd duck. Amongst programmers in social situations I feel like I am carrying a huge burden. Amongst outsiders I pretty much keep quiet about how I make a living and talk about everything but work.
I think I'm the opposite of TLL. I sit alone all day and can't wait to get around people. Just this week I took a couple vacation days to do acting gigs. Not for the pay, which is not much, but the enjoyment of human interaction.
133: As far as I know I'm not your dad, but there's a couple ex-flings who I quickly touch with.
RepublicansRovians are always evil, and can only get elected by lying to the voters,
Fixed that for you TLL.
But more seriously, TLL, it's hard to argue that it wasn't the Republicans that lead the race to the bottom in electoral tactics. To their shame, many Dems enthusiastically gave chase. It could have been a more principled landscape today, had only a few more people dug their heels in and shamed the mudslingers ages ago.
As far as I know I'm not your dad, but there's a couple ex-flings who I quickly touch with.
It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure it would have taken more than a quick touch.
Note that the Coleman dirty tricksters showed up accusing the Democrats were doing what they were going to do. That's the famous Rove-TLL inocculation strategy. Right before you hit below the belt, accuse the other guy of hitting below the belt.
This story was first reported as a bipartisan problem. There's no evidence so far that it was.
It could have been a more principled landscape today, had only a few more people dug their heels in and shamed the mudslingers ages ago.
Didn't a lot of people try this, and lose elections in the process?
Boss Tweed was not a Republican.
I am as embarrassed as any American at the current state of affairs, and cries of 'twas ever thus aren't germane. Blame Rove, blame Lee Atwater, blame Nixon, but LBJ was no peach in that regard.
Television has changed the game, but not that much.
Sorry, Emerson your attempts are cyberbullying will not make me go away and commit sepuku. I will cry my sad, lonely tears and fight another day.
140: Surely. I'm sure there was a tipping point. A moment when a bi-partisan push to condemn it would have stuck.
Some say warmongering and paranoia are strategies in representative politics used mostly by Republicans, but they must have forgotten about Cato the Elder.
Next time try to bring something less than a century old to the table, TLL. I suppose I'll be hearing about Jimmy Hoffa next, or the stolen 1960 Presidential election. Or the odious Martin Van Buren.
You're a crook from a crooked party. You should be helping your own people clean up their mess instead of sniping at Democrats.
Actually, now that your crooked game has stopped working, I'm confident that you'll become very scrupulous about integrity and civility. The same way that Rove and the rest of your team will.
I am not a crook. Wait, where have I heard that before?
122: You really think so? I'm prepared to take Obama's remark at face value.
147: I dunno, but I thought of Hillary and Eleanor Roosevelt the instant I heard it. Could be an accident, or could be a mild jibe that he didn't think anyone would pick up.
Although becoming a psychotherapist would be even better from that perspective. Plus, I'd get to hear people's crazy stories!
I too harbor a secret desire to be a therapist, for that reason. But it's hard to tell if it would be like overhearing peoples' juicy private gossip (love!), or being stuck next to an overly talkative type on a long airplane flight (hate...).
(Yes, I have been in therapy and know how totally inappropriate the desire to eavesdrop on gossip is as a motivation for becoming a therapist).
But it's hard to tell if it would be like overhearing peoples' juicy private gossip (love!), or being stuck next to an overly talkative type on a long airplane flight (hate...).
Presumably a mix of both. In my experience, there are some times when I can tell that my shrink is utterly engaged and moved by what I am saying, and there are other times when, no matter how engaged she seems, I'm thinking that she can't help but to be thinking, "I can't believe he's bringing this up again."
I dunno, but I thought of Hillary and Eleanor Roosevelt the instant I heard it. Could be an accident, or could be a mild jibe that he didn't think anyone would pick up.
But I think Nancy Reagan actually had seances, or a favorite psychic or something. I don't think you have to look for hidden meaning in that remark. You young people just don't remember that far back.
Nancy had the astrologer -- she used to schedule Ronnie's appointments based on whether the charts were favorable.
It was definitely Hillary who had the seance (or: that was definitely the story -- I think that was a right-wing smear actually). But I'm not sure Obama knew this, he might have been talking off the cuff and mixed up the astrologers and the seance in his head. I wonder if he had "oh, shit" moment in the middle of talking when he realized it was Hillary.
Right- but since she's not quite dead, and it was so long ago it doesn't work as a joke. Subtlety, thy name is Barak.
Nancy, not Hillary. Being not quite dead, I mean.
153: As I remember it, it was true, but not psychic -- it was some kind of focusing exercise, having imaginary conversations with ER in sort of a WWERD? kind of way.
Looks like Nancy consulted Jean Dixon too, and a number of other psychics.
156. That's the way I remember it. Not equivalent at all.
Who had more power as First Lady, Nancy or Hillary? Different kinds of power, also.
156: right, that's what I meant, it was some kind of new age imagining thing.
If you want uproarious conference dinners, I recommend becoming a cognitive linguist.
Nancy was more powerful because Bill Clinton's brain was still functioning.
I walked into a hotel bar full of nephrologists recently and my overwhelming thought was, "You people just spent eight hours at a conference together. Why on earth do you want to go to a loud, ugly place and socialize more?"
Obviously I am not cut out for nephrology.
Emerson, you haven't done any trollblogging lately. Are you, unlike McManus, afraid to troll our shiny new liberal masters?
Haven't caught up yet, but the report is, no, no sex. He had plans after we got a few beers together. The problem with both of us being oversharers is that we end up having meta-conversations about how each of us has problems getting laid, and not actually getting laid. Sigh.
One thing I prefer about internet dating is that you both know why you're there. IRL relationships dance around what's going on forEVER.
Hmm...apparently I'm a lot less introverted than I used to be/think of myself as. Not sure whether that's just from getting older or from getting older while married to someone very different from me. Practicing law might be in there somewhere too--it's a very good way of disabusing yourself of any notion that others have a better handle on what's going on than you do..
We are not going to have sex later. He claims to be shy. I am so sick of guys claiming to be shy! Arg!
There is another party close by that I could go to, but the idea of picking someone else up right now kind of sucks. I cleaned my apartment and everything.
Shouldn't New Yorkers be having Obama sex right now to make up for all that terror sex from seven years ago?
I AM TRYING, GODDAMN IT. I put forth my best effort, only to hear suggestions that a woman with my sexual confidence and intelligence is somewhat intimidating. Gah.
168: Shy? Once you're talking about your sex lives, shy doesn't make any sense. Not wanting to is perfectly respectable, but someone who's complaining of shyness under the circumstances is being weird. Avoid. (At least as a potential sex partner.)
I walked into a hotel bar full of nephrologists recently and my overwhelming thought was, "You people just spent eight hours at a conference together. Why on earth do you want to go to a loud, ugly place and socialize more?"
Because that four-day conference is the only time they see each other all year?
I walked into a hotel bar full of nephrologists recently and my overwhelming thought was, "You people just spent eight hours at a conference together. Why on earth do you want to go to a loud, ugly place and socialize more?"
Because that's the fun part of the socializing! The conference part, after all, is all presenting and being anxious about presenting, and making chitchat about the presentations, and drinking mediocre coffee. (Unless it's the MLA, in which case the conference part is all about interviews and horrid people preening at one another.) The evening part is drinking and gossiping and indulging in a ridiculous orgy of inside jokes like a person with moderately controlled Tourette's getting somewhere where he can divest himself of a day's worth of built-up tics.
Avoid. (At least as a potential sex partner.)
OK, but what if there's a happy medium between guys who totally don't give a shit about me and guys who are passive-aggressive in relationships with me, and they consider themselves shy? He said he's never slept with a woman who challenged him intellectually, and would like to try, but doesn't know how, which puts me in the weird position of not knowing whether he wants advice (I am his adviser, technically speaking) or for me to come onto him. So I tried both, clumsily, and got the response that he really wants to see me again, in the future. I told him he's very attractive, and he waved it off as being "too Dr. Phil."
Nud and I like our colleagues!
What's the point of going to conferences if you don't like the conference dinners? I try to skip as much of the conference as I can, aside from the dinners. That's where all the fun happens.
He said he's never slept with a woman who challenged him intellectually, and would like to try, but doesn't know how
...
He wants to have a hot sexual encounter with one of your less intelligent friends, AWV. See if you can do the same for him as well.
He is annoying. He's really annoying, and hot, and annoying. It never annoyed me really before tonight though. The instant I hear that "but I'm shy" line, I'm sort of out of there.
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LA meetup is definitely on for Masa in Echo Park at 8 pm. Look for us on the couches. Having deep-dish Obama sex. And a nice Zin.
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174: Eh, I shouldn't try to give advice, I never knew what I was doing and haven't dated since I was 24. But he sounds either innately maddening or like he's fucking with you, and not in the fun way.
177: See, this kind of line would leave me spitting with anger on behalf of his prior girlfriends, who he was apparently having sex with while considering kind of dumb.
179 makes no sense, I was supposed to be telling you to find one of his less intelligent friends too.
anwjpi2309
Obviously, I will pull back at this point to the "we are friends" position. I like him too well to drop the relationship entirely, but, as usual, the instant my libido gets expressed, it goes sour.
La la la, soon all the comments in this thread will be by me. I'm trying to write something dull, in case it's not obvious.
Whoops, I meant to put that last in the childbirth thread, where I've made the last eighteen or so comments.
183: It was in the context of a conversation about whether we'd dated people smarter or dumber than us, and I don't think either of us meant it in a nasty way. I mentioned having dated a guy who was freaked out that I used words he didn't know, and he said that had never happened to him. Etc.
In the end, I think my girlfriend was right that men are really good at treating me like a dude-friend, and it's kind of stimulating, until it becomes stimulating enough to create something akin to homosexual panic.
I broke up (if 'didn't see again after two dates and some messing around' counts as breaking up) with a guy in college largely because he didn't know the word 'trollop', and when he looked it up, didn't seem to understand the definition ("Slattern? I looked that up too, and it means a bad housekeeper?") Also because he had really bad acne on his back.
Ah, freshman year.
172, 173: Conferences for me are generally about absorbing interesting tidbits of information, presentations (which are easy and fun), and making connections with far-flung colleagues in the hallways.*
By the end of eight or nine hours of that, I am absolutely exhausted and stuffed with information, and not up for being gracious and pleasant for another three hours.
Plus, although practical gossip is useful but tedious, hurtful gossip is offensive. I operate on the same principle as online: DFTT.
*Free fruit to any commenter who acts now.
The adviser thing is a spanner in the works. I know I'd be very wary of involvement with someone who had any sort of influence over my future, even the very mild sort of peer counselor sort of thing this advising seems to be. Sometime down the line you may well be approached by a faculty member for a down-low appraisal of this guy and having him clumsily misinterpret friendly oversharing as an invite to the bonedance, especially with dimly understood expectations about future relationship prospects, might be more than he's willing to risk.
Alternatively, could be that he's happy enough with things as they are.
AlterAlternatively, could be that there's other women on his list ahead of you.
AlterAlterAlterrnatively, he could be as utterly clueless at picking up signs of interest as I am, which is something I tend to associate with the physical sciences more than lit, but could be that there are lit nerds with stunted social antennae.
Masturbation is under appreciated, in my opinion.
It really doesn't bother me at all to date someone not as vocab-knowledgeable as me, just as it doesn't bother me to date someone who knows shit I don't know, but some guys are kind of psycho about it, especially if it's sex stuff, which is, I think, what's going on here. He's been in a few LTRs and hasn't done much screwing around, and while I don't think he thinks I'm a slut, it does make him worry that he hasn't had much variety of experience.
the highly scientific algorithm
Ha. I think I've mentioned this before, but eHarmony suggested a guy for me who said in his profile that he didn't like to read books, and didn't understand why other people would. And this was in the teeny sliver of information they let you see about someone before you pay the site any money!
while I don't think he thinks I'm a slut, it does make him worry that he hasn't had much variety of experience
Ugh. Sounds like a sexual encounter with him would require dancing through a minefield of insecurities.
Blume, a hot overintellectual lady like you needs a real man. Haven't you read "Lady Chatterly's Lover" or "Wuthering Heights"?
He said he's never slept with a woman who challenged him intellectually, and would like to try, but doesn't know how
What a complete tool.
191: I don't think the adviser thing matters much, as we don't do any recommendations based on our student-advisees. It's a little gauche to screw around in the department, but it's done. He's said that he has bad antennae, which makes me think that's part of it, but he seems to be attracted to me. We were both at a talk earlier this evening at which he whispered that he was bored and rested his elbow in the crook of my hip, titillatingly, for the next hour and a half.
What I presume is going on here is that he's interested, but has no experience with dating someone socially and academically more advanced than himself, and doesn't know how to act on it. Plus, most of the times we've gone out, he's had tickets to shows or people in town he has to meet at a particular time, so we haven't had the chance to talk for long.
Whatever. If he wants to do something about it, that's cool; I feel like I've made my intentions known, as has he. But it just takes so much more time than screwing around with asshole strangers does.
194: Yeah, that too, but I guess I was banking on the fact that he was actively trying to deal with those insecurities in therapy. Maybe he's just not ripe yet. He's a year younger than me, and with far less life-experience, but there is potential there.
197: I've now gone back and read 188 and am willing to soften slightly, but only slightly, on this judgement.
Plus, although practical gossip is useful but tedious, hurtful gossip is offensive.
In my experience, these are not the only available kinds of gossip in the world.
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Holy crap! When I was ten, I went to summer camp and had this roommate from hell. She ripped up some books, ate my care package candy, divided the room in half, and was generally really unhappy to be at camp.
She just facebooked me and apologized! I am reeling. Of course I don't harbor any hard feelings, but what a wild random reconnection.
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202: Fair enough, and of course we work in very different fields, so it would be natural to have different experiences. E.g., I've never had a job that depended on my ability to deliver a presentation, and I probably never will.
What I presume is going on here is that he's interested, but has no experience with dating someone socially and academically more advanced than himself, and doesn't know how to act on it.
Something to bear (heh) in mind is that for pro-feminist men dating (and relationships in general) has layers of power issues that we don't have role models for dealing with, where the expectations (society's, our partner's and our own) are very ill defined. Manhood as we are brought up to understand it is very much about power and hierarchy, but that's changing. Things are fluid right now, changing swiftly and unpredictably - whether or not to open a door for a woman is a dissertation-level topic, let alone whether it's emasculating to date someone your nominal senior. Dunno if that's relevant here, but its been on my mind a bit lately, so I thought I'd mention it.
Likewise, there's oversharing and there's oversharing. I think every time I've almost instantly fallen into an intimate-details form of mutual sharing with someone, it's been clear from the outset that it was going to be friendship only. But there's a sort of sharing I can't put a name to (something that avoids hand-wringing, maybe?) that can go otherwise.
205 is largely what I'm guessing is going on. I guess that he either sees me as a potential transitional relationship or someone who will teach him how to develop potential transitional relationships.
206 originally to 202 and preceding.
206: I know what you mean. I would assume the former, that it's a friendship-scenario obviously because of the over-sharing, but I know what that feels like. This is more like two people saying, "I have a tendency to overshare! Did you notice? I overshare as a way of developing intimacy!" and not knowing where to go from there. It's probably safer if we both decide it's about friendship, but OTOH, wouldn't it be nice to date someone who is also compulsively honest?
203: At my mom's funeral I met a woman my friends and I had been beastly to 50 years earlier when she was about 7 and we were about 10, and whom I hadn't seen since. She was quite friendly. I didn't get a chance to apologize.
OT: Has anyone ever booked tickets on Bolt Bus? The site was agonizingly slow, froze when I tried print a confirmation, and hasn't sent me an e-mail confirmation. Argh!
205: Manhood as we are brought up to understand it is very much about power and hierarchy, but that's changing. Things are fluid right now, changing swiftly and unpredictably - whether or not to open a door for a woman is a dissertation-level topic, let alone whether it's emasculating to date someone your nominal senior.
Weirdly, I'd have thought this applied 15 or 20 years ago, but that it wasn't still much of a live issue any more.
211: You're not coming to NYC, are you? The NJ Transit is pretty cheap and convenient!
Yeah, I generally like NJT, but in this instance it's a pain to get the R7 to Trenton and transfer, plus if I have the free wireless on the bus I can stay in better touch with the office. I have to do this during the workday.
209: OTOH, wouldn't it be nice to date someone who is also compulsively honest?
Impossible to say: could be a disaster, could be great. I might be overly honest at times, and have had great relationships with people who are the same, but the compulsive honesty or oversharing doesn't apply for me; only you can say.
I will say that the only time I was in a long relationship with someone who was very, very similar to me, we wound up after 5 years hating in each other just what we hated in ourselves. I wouldn't generalize from that, though.
203, 210: I've half-heartedly looked a couple of times for an e-mail address for a high school classmate to whom I owe an apology, with the thought of doing something like that.
My immediate thought on reading 203 was: Huh, I wonder if this is a 12-step thing.
wouldn't it be nice to date someone who is also compulsively honest?
I dunno. There's stuff going on in my head that a partner just doesn't need to know. I'd assume that's true of any potential partners, too.
Hmmm. I am wary of the oversharing thing, associating it mostly with men who are rushing the instant intimacy thing. Well, and also with me when feeling all needy and desperate for the instant intimacy thing.
Manhood as we are brought up to understand it is very much about power and hierarchy, but that's changing. Things are fluid right now, changing swiftly and unpredictably - whether or not to open a door for a woman is a dissertation-level topic, let alone whether it's emasculating to date someone your nominal senior.
I agree with parsimon on this. Do whatever the hell you want, if the person gets offended they weren't for you anyway. Actually, everyone opens doors for everyone these days, has been my observation.
Also, if a woman lets you pay you're more likely to get some (if that's what you want). At least, that holds true for the kind of women I date.
Actually, last part of 222 came off a bit odd -- my point was, if someone lets you do the whole old-school chivalric thing of paying for them, they're pretty sure they'll be seeing you a lot more so they can just pay for you sometime in the future.
"I'm shy" is generally a lame attempt to act cutesy, IME. It sounds vulnerable without actually being vulnerable. It's as close as men are allowed to come to fluttering their eyelids.
if a woman lets you pay you're more likely to get some
Well, if I had no intention of ever seeing the guy again, I probably would not let him pay for me, whereas if I like him I'd be more likely to play it by ear. So in that sense I'd follow the pattern.
222.1: Yeah, I was thinking that: everyone opens doors for everyone (that is, it doesn't sort much by gender). But I'm sure that differs by area and such.
222.2: Also, if a woman lets you pay you're more likely to get some
I've been wondering about this. I know we've talked about income disparities here before. My experience has been that if one party wants to treat (perhaps because he -- or she -- is more financially comfortable at the moment), that's fine. It tends to confuse me that people place more significance on this than I do. Generally, between friends, the favor is returned in one way or another, whether it's just delivering homemade muffins or helping with the gardening or whatever.
Several people over time here have talked about being 'treated' to a meal or something as making them feel eventually like a prostitute: my radar just isn't tuned to this. I had a guy break off dating with me because I wanted to eat out, he couldn't afford it, I (humorously! no big deal! it's only 25 bucks!) insisted on paying, and he later told me how very uncomfortable he was with that.
"I'm shy" is generally a lame attempt to act cutesy,
What does it mean if he says, "I'm cutesy"?
222: I let him pay for me this week, and he let me pay this week. This seems to reflect the ever-shifting power dynamic in our erotic discourse.
227: He's a bodhisattva, someone who is delaying his own personal nirvana to help the world achieve enlightenment.
225 is exactly what I was talking about.
My experience has been that if one party wants to treat (perhaps because he -- or she -- is more financially comfortable at the moment), that's fine.
I always insist on paying if there's a big financial gap and it's an expensive place.
He's a bodhisattva, someone who is delaying his own personal nirvana to help the world achieve enlightenment.
So then the girl has to say, "Bodhisattva, won't you take me by the hand?"
226.last is part of what I was getting at in 205
You do better with men if you don't chop their balls off. Unfortunately "chop their balls off" has meanings that vary widely with individual and context.
I'll say it again: Masturbation is under appreciated.
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"Hey Delilah" seems to have inspired a number of Sarah Palin-related songs from both sides.
(I may have been multiply pwned during the last month in which I barely read Unfogged.)
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232.1: You mean I chopped his balls off by paying for his dinner!? (Truthfully, he said that he was uncomfortable with what felt like some pre-established "dating" behavior; I said that I didn't adhere to "dating" behavior either; we were mutually confused. There were other problems, anyway. But I still think this is a matter of grace: accept a gift, why don't you?)
234: I'm totally comfortable with chicks paying, parsimon. Just sayin'.
235: That's a relief. Everybody should just chill the fuck out about this stuff.
234: Some guys balls are more tenuously attached than others. Just sayin.
['That's why God gave us Duct Tape']
I just came home from a non-date with a friend that I'd like to date too. But not really. But sort of. He's really adorable, and makes good borscht. But he's 14 years my junior, and technically my underling (heh) at the pet store. He constantly makes those "if you knew what you were missing" and "if only you didn't reject me for being so young" jokes, when in fact he's never made a move, because he's intimidated. Flirts outrageously, no follow through. And of course I couldn't reciprocate anyway, if he did, because I'm his boss. Ew. On principle, just ew.
But I enjoy the pseudo-dates anyway. Good soup is hard to find.
Good soup is hard to find.
ain't that the truth.
238: c'mon, go for it. Strike a blow for gender equality!
Wrenae and I live in parallel universes.
Good soup isn't found but invented (erfunden).
238: Damn. 14 years? Probably doomed, you know, but still. My sober serious self says nah, stick with the soup and pseudo-dates, that's the smart thing.
If dimensions are the undulating donuts that PBS has given me to believe, I live in the Krispy Kreme dimension. Yours must be the bagel universe?
242: Maybe I should have said, "It's hard for me to find the people willing to invent and then serve me good soup." That'd be a more accurate statement.
Don't you people understand anything? Men are disposable! They are meant to be used until they can no longer serve their purpose! Why do you think men live for so much shorter lifespans?
The torus: the natural sign for deliciousness.
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Walt: I so totally am going to come back at 'cha on the whole, uh, nature of mathematics thing. Lakatos just arrived in the mail today.
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247: Walt, you must try to control your hysteria.
Just so you know, I'm in favor of sex with the socially inept.
250: So am I, having been one of the socially underdeveloped at one point in my life. It's one of the more pleasant ways to overcome some of those tendencies.
238, 243: For what it's worth, the second woman I ever slept with was 14 years older than me: 40 to my 26. That turned out to have certain advantages, as it meant she had both the confidence and the experience to ask what I wanted from her when I wasn't making the moves she might have expected while dating (see .1 above). That led directly to us getting it on together. That relationship also helped me get over my hangups about dating older women, which expanded my dating pool significantly. So I'd say the age difference shouldn't be a show-stopper, though it may limit the long-term potential of the relationship.
The boss-employee thing is a bigger issue, since you might have to deal with possible sexual harassment complications should things turn out badly (or possibly even if they turn out well). Still, you aren't both going to be working in those positions forever, are you? I would think if you were interested you could carefully lay the ground for a possible future relationship if the professional situation changes.
But he's 14 years my junior, and technically my underling (heh) at the pet store.
there's a really cute independent movie to be made here. I imagine it as sort of twee in a hipsterish way.
251: I don't know why anyone would turn to you for sex advice, Mr. Erectile Dysfunction guy.
Good soup isn't found but invented (erfunden).
ben speaks truth
SEX WITH OLDER WOMEN!
sort of twee in a hipsterish way
My hips are anything but twee, I assure you. They also don't fit into little, petty places.
AWB,
You situation is so complicated that I can't relate very well. I can't relate to the guy's ambivalence, and I can see how frustrating that must be to deal with.
It is kinda like the 'undecided voters' the media pursued so strongly. Fairly soon I was like "These people are simply indecisive to the point of being nearly non-functional and why the F should I care about their stupid opinions anymore?"
But if the guy is hott to you then I guess you have to make a judgment call about how much up with which you will put.
My wife tells me I miss a lot of nuance when it comes to human interaction, which usually means I miss 'slights' that some people are sending my way but it sure does make things simpler for me, and I guess I'm glad that I'm a simple person in that way. I know what I want and I'm pretty good at getting it, which means telling when to be active and when to wait, and if it doesn't work out no hard feelings.
I doubt this helps you at all. Not to be creepy but I wish I could see and hear you in person because I think I'd have a lot better idea of what is going on, but I know that sounds creepy and I hope you know I mean it as a friend.
257: Well, the non-movement can be fun for a while. But then it stops being fun, and you've both worked your way into a corner. I am really good at either making stuff happen sexually on the first day I meet someone or never. If it doesn't happen immediately, it doesn't happen. It's a me problem, but possibly also the problem of the kinds of guys I tend to spend my time with.
Hmmm, to this 'old fashioned' guy the first date or never seems kinda extreme. If things were going well I'd usually try for a kiss on the first date and leave it at that. The kiss could be a 'real one,' if that worked out, but that was it. Then we'd both get a chance to cool off a bit and think about things. Then if things went farther the next time I'd know it wasn't just a spontaneous one-time thing.
Not that there isn't a place for a one-time thing. I dunno though. Like I said, I was old-fashioned, and also never dated after age 25, so things could be different when one is older. I just saying how I was, I'm not saying I was right.
FWIW I probably dated about 30 people from age 17 to 24 before I got married, with me being deeply in love with three of them but it didn't work out.
Anyway that is what seemed to work for me. Luckily, and this will sound incredibly pompous, I knew few people smarter than me so being intimidated by an intelligent woman was never anything I ever though of.
260: I don't do it on purpose; I promise. It just never works out any other way. And no, I don't sleep with everyone on the first date, but if I ever will sleep with them, there's usually a pretty unambiguous encounter the first time.
262: Yes, exactly. I don't have enough experiences with this to make a datapoint, but I can say this is true of me as well.
A friend of mine seemed to think that was normal, when I mentioned it, feeling a little ashamed that I'd all but slept with the half-Greek torture-apologist Republican on our first date. (I didn't know about the second two-thirds of that description yet, in my defense.) "You usually know pretty quickly, I think," she said. Same with my ex, by the end of our first encounter at the video store, there was absolutely no doubt we'd be sleeping together, even if the where and when had yet to be worked out.
But in both cases, the guy in question clearly applied himself to that end, with a lot of casual touching, compliments, eye contact, minor innuendo, etc., all clearly exchanged prior to seduction. If there are barriers in place to that initial mating dance, either because of his indecision or intimidation or position or whatever, I don't know if it ever really works afterward.
And anyway, with the Russian, I think his flirting is more an act of counting coup than anything else. At least that's how it seems when I'm sober.
And the "counting coup" is an idea I got from you, AWB, and have appropriated because it's so apt. I don't have students, but I have subordinates of the same approximate age.
"Counting coup" -- is seducing people just in order to add to one's count, I surmise.
265: Not exactly. The way I understood and remember it, counting coup would happen when there's a power/position differential, and the younger/less powerful of the two wants to flirt to prove that he/she could sleep with the other, not that he/she actually will. Actually having sex would shift the power yet again, or mess with some other internal reasoning/code, so it's only flirting, not sex. To count coup was to touch, not to kill. To prove that you could, but not to do, out of a sense of honor or practicality or whatever.
My mother, who's been a bartender for more than 40 years now, encounters this often. She puts it this way: "I'm the head bitch in charge here, so they all have to come up and sniff me." There might be something a little more primal about having a key to the liquor in a room full of drunks.
One of the bars I occasionally go to around here has a cute, jolly, 70-year-old bartender. You're not old around here until you're 80.
266: I see. And presumably 'proving' that you could, but declining to do so, levels the power imbalance. In someone's mind. Gotcha.
253: Well, PGD, if you only want to take advice from certified sex gods, you are welcome to consult Burt Reynolds or whoever you wish. But I suspect he's gone through life with a few advantages that the rest of us may not have, so his experience might not be quite so applicable to the rest of us. For myself, back in my single days I found it quite annoying to be given advice from those who had found love easily and assumed that their experience was equally true for everyone else.
The keynote speaker at the singles conference where I met the woman in 251.2 was a prime example. In his talk, he divided the single universe between those who had always been single (who he called "single by choice") and those who were divorced or widowed, who were "single by death" - either the relationship or the person. When I challenged him on his terminology after the talk, he claimed that there were women out there who were desperate to get married, and because I hadn't found and married one of those women, I had obviously chosen to be single. As if there wasn't any difference between the desire to marry the right person and the desire to marry just anyone. As if that supposed choice wasn't equally available to the divorced and widowed. Because he had chosen to marry his college sweetheart, he assumed that that was a choice available to everyone, while his subsequent divorce, it seemed, was something that "just happened." Apparently his divorce papers just filed themselves without any human intervention. Twit.
Me, I'm just trying to live my life as best I can, and share snippets of my experience with those who might find them useful. I don't claim to have all the answers. I don't even know if the path I've chosen thus far leads to a happy ending or not, because I haven't gone far enough down it to be able to see the ending. You're welcome to read parts of my life as a cautionary tale if you wish, a "don't let this happen to you." There are certainly things I wish I had done differently, and lessons I wish I had learned earlier in life. If sharing my experience helps others evaluate their choices differently, or learn those lessons more quickly, then I think that's a good thing.