Re: Meanwhile, in alternate reality land...

1

What the hell is Conservapedia? I'm totally baffled by this. Is Wikipedia considered untrustworthy because... liberals are allowed to edit entries too?

But I see that the first Conservapedia Commandment is: "Everything you post must be true and verifiable." So that's good.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:38 AM
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But Apo's right, this is a great article.

In the years 2000 through 2004, before becoming a United States Senator and being in the public spotlight, Obama gave 1% of his earnings to charity even though he made $250,000 per year. Since becoming a national figure, that amount has jumped to 6%.[59]. Obama's small donations are consistent with atheism and were perhaps influenced by his nonbelieving mother.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:41 AM
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The outright lies are just lies, but I think this piece of truthiness may be my favorite: On the campaign trail Obama has been reading "The Post-American World" by Fareed Zakaria, which is written from a Muslim point-of-view

I can't imagine why anyone thinks the "Obama is a Muslim" people are fueled by racism.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:41 AM
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Are these people actually dangerous to anyone other than themselves?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:48 AM
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"Many observers have criticized Obama's campaign for its incivility. For instance, John McCain's wife Cindy noted that Obama is running 'the dirtiest campaign in American history.' [...] Another feature of the Obama campaign is the unruly audience. CNN reported in October of 2008, that people are calling John McCain a terrorist at these events."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:50 AM
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Are these people actually dangerous to anyone other than themselves?

That's an Atrios question. Yes.

The ones on the internet probably aren't the same ones who pick up the gun, however.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:52 AM
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"Conservapedia: because Wikipedia's not the right kind of wrong."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:56 AM
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The ones on the internet probably aren't the same ones who pick up the gun, however.

They are, however, vital to creating the environment that nurtures the ones who will eventually pick up guns.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:59 AM
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Goddamn it feels good to see the crazies dragged into the light.

The local weekly had a piece last week covering the Republican "victory" party in Raleigh on Tuesday night. It includes gems such as, "This is the end of democracy in America," and an attendee accosting a reporter to ask, "Who'd you vote for? Look me in the eyes, and I can tell you... You're a young person, and that scares me."

I am perfectly happy for the freakazoid Republican base to be The Story for the next eight years, as long as we don't let them influence any actual policy.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:01 AM
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Kos: 34% of the voters think that it's bad to have both Congress and the White House in Democratic hands. That's pretty close to the crazified Republican 27%.

The media meme is completely fake. Nobody except pundits and Republicans wants divided government. That was just a goal-line stand for the Democrat-haters.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:11 AM
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I particularly like,
He has no clear personal achievement that cannot be explained as the likely result of affirmative action.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:15 AM
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10

The media meme is completely fake. Nobody except pundits and Republicans wants divided government. That was just a goal-line stand for the Democrat-haters.

Democrats want divided government when there is a Republican President.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:21 AM
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I am perfectly happy for the freakazoid Republican base to be The Story for the next eight years, as long as we don't let them influence any actual policy.

The problem with this is that there's a widespread "split the difference" impulse, especially among the sort of weenie liberals that populate the Democratic party and the non-Fox mainstream media. The right knows this on some level and so they encourage the wackiest people to speak up because it drags the whole discourse their way, allowing the merely bad ideas to look quite sensible in light of the batshit crazy and outright evil ones.

There are two approaches to dealing with this: Either promote countervailing insanity or attack the split the difference impulse. I strongly prefer the latter.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:25 AM
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13: i.e., moving the Overton window.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:28 AM
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13: I would much rather see the "countervailing insanity" approach. If the air is full of pundits calling for $10 trillion in slavery reparations, suddenly affirmative action will be seen as the reasonable, centrist approach. If one side of the argument is "stay in Iraq forever" then let the other side be "surrender Texas to the Mexicans", and the rational centre will coalesce around "withdraw from Iraq".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:34 AM
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13: While I think there's some truth to that, it's not the whole story. One result of the civil rights movement is that it juxtaposed polite black people with crazed white people, which had the effect of making racism less acceptable, not moreso.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:36 AM
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From their Sarah Palin entry:

"She participated in a debate with the Democratic VP candidate Joe Biden on October 2, 2008, ending up being declared the winner by most credible news sources that are not influenced by liberal bias."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:36 AM
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15: But we might compromise by staying in Iraq forever and surrendering Texas to the Mexicans.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:38 AM
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I've always felt that if Congress had countervailing craziness, we would have a Democrat representative who would routinely read into the Congressional Record lists of the first people up against the wall when the revolution comes.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:43 AM
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Anyway, it won't be long. Everybody knows that the first item on the agenda of the Left is passage of the Countervailing Craziness Doctrine to restore fairness to radio.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:44 AM
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Obama also revealed his deep Marxist/Leninist roots in the design of the poster for his 'visit' to Berlin in July 2008. The clear parallels between the poster design and Lenin's earlier poster was obviously a deliberate yet hidden hint to his European, socialistic audience as to his political roots and beliefs.

I'm intrigued by "'visit'". Did he in fact not really go there? Was it all on a soundstage somewhere?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:47 AM
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18: Legalize all immigration forever, then draft the new citizens for the war with Iran!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:48 AM
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I've never heard a Democrat, except a fake media Democrat, promote the "divided government" meme. Democrats want as many Democrats in all branches as possible. (Well, maybe some neolibs and the right wing of the DLC wanted divided government, but that's the Democrat-hating wing of the Democratic Party).

The "divided government" meme is a.) the same old stupid Broderism, b.) a last-ditch way of encouraging ticket-splitting when the Republican Presidential candidate is losing, and c.) a way of diverting attention from the fact that, given unimpeded control of the government for the greater part of six years, the Republicans fucked things up worse than anyone could ever have imagined. (See, it's an institutional problem! The Republicans are not at fault! The Democrats failed to stop them from ruining everything! Fucking Democrats! Stop me before I kill again!)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:51 AM
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I thought that Obama was Hitler, not Lenin.

Did anyone ever see Hitler and Lenin in the same room together? Has anyone ever chacked to make sure that the Lenin mummy is really Lenin?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:53 AM
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22: Occupy the entire Middle East, extract all their oil, and then hand it out, a barrel at a time, to poor black single mothers in American inner cities!
Appoint Bill Ayers as Imperial American Proconsul of Mesopotamia!
COMITY!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:59 AM
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then let the other side be "surrender Texas to the Mexicans"

Hey, you were supposed to make the lefty position crazy.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:14 AM
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26: Surrender South Dakota to Equatorial Guinea, then.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:16 AM
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Now we're talking! We really owed them anyway.

Or you could go for the ol' "Eliminate the U.S. government, handing over all executive and legislative powers for our country to the U.N." trope that right-wing crazies seem to think we believe. Not only will it make "fewer wars" a sensible compromise, it'll also make "less federalism" a centrist policy.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:21 AM
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27: No, North Dakota - that's the one with the Minuteman IIs.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:26 AM
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29: But South Dakota has the Corn Palace.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:32 AM
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Nice that they admit he was born in Honolulu.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:36 AM
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32

Robust,

Goddamn it feels good to see the crazies dragged into the light.

Well, I guess, but my wife is working on a committee to gather public input and advice on how our local school system will cut $10 million.

A couple nights ago she was working a table with another women at the HS cafeteria, the same night an orchestra concert was taking place.

A guy came up and asked what they were doing. He was there to see the concert, his daughter played violin in the orchestra, but he started a rant about the need to eliminate most everything - the arts, social workers, psychiatrists, guidance counselors, and social studies. He got kinda whacko and looked at them and said "I know what you are thinking. You support those kinds of things, don't you? I know who you voted for."

He got abrasive and personal and my wife and the other women got kind of frightened. I really wish I had been there, because I would love to stand nose to nose with an idiot like that. The thing is I'm pretty sure if I was there he'd have kept his mouth shut, the effing coward. I wish they had gotten his name.

I'm a pretty big guy and I'll stand up to anyone. You better hope the first swing takes me down cause otherwise you'll be real sorry. Take one swing and you are down and the cops are called.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:40 AM
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Appoint Bill Ayers as Imperial American Proconsul of Mesopotamia!

No, right now the Department of Education needs Comrade Ayers. How else will we raise the next generation of liberal communists if Ayers isn't writing the textbooks?


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:42 AM
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34

I'm a pretty big guy and I'll stand up to anyone. You better hope the first swing takes me down cause otherwise you'll be real sorry. Take one swing and you are down and the cops are called.

I hope this is a joke.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:46 AM
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The "public opinion" that the media discusses is created entirely within media discourse, with absolutely no reference to actual public opinion (insofar as that can be reliably determined).


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 10:57 AM
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33: You mean the Department of Re-education, right?


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:02 AM
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31 - Conservapedia is now officially less wingnutty than Camille Paglia.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:09 AM
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I liked this sentence about how the state of Hawaii has declared his birth certificate to be valid: "If states are no longer regarded as a valid authority on citizenship of those born within them then no one is eligible for President because no one can prove that they are natural born citizens." Presumably this is a rare voice of reason that will soon be edited out.

I do think it's interesting that both candidates this time around were born abroad.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:15 AM
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38: Yeah, what are the odds that two long-running programs to install a mind-controlled zombie into the White House would come to fruition the exact same year?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:17 AM
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4:1


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:19 AM
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Make that three.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:35 AM
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"Americans want divided government" is an old idea from the era around 1968-1992, when Democrats had controlled the House of Representatives since forever, but Republicans usually won presidential elections. The real reason for it was simple: the Democrats still had a conservative, white-supremacist southern wing on the national level, and their supporters tended to vote for Republican presidents. Now that that's essentially gone, the adage doesn't really apply. But when the Republicans won big in 1994 over continued economic discontent that had already gotten in a Democratic president, people spuriously fit it into the "divided government" frame.


Posted by: Matt McIrvin | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 11:35 AM
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Has anyone ever chacked to make sure that the Lenin mummy is really Lenin?

When I was in Moscow in late '94 and early '95, I mentioned this in passing to my host-mother. She was someone who had hated Communism, was very liberal by the standards of that time and that place, but when I mentioned that there are people who think that Lenin's corpse, which I'd gone to see that morning, might not be real, she got very stony and very sober and said, quietly, "That is him. It is not fake." I was scared to ask anything about politics for the rest of the trip.

All this is to say that Obama is clearly neither Hitler nor Lenin, he's post-cosmetic-surgery Castro. He faked illness and rumors of his own death so that he could take us over from within.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 12:09 PM
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The conservapedia entry on same-sex marriage is a real hoot.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 12:12 PM
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So what happens when Obama is not sworn in on a Koran? Do they just deny it and insist it was secretly a Koran? At what point are they accountable when what they say doesn't match reality?

Why does Dick Morris still get on TV.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 12:39 PM
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Wingnut: There are VERY REAL CONCERNS that it was a Koran bound in a Bible cover!

Putz: Interesting link.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:09 PM
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At what point are they accountable when what they say doesn't match reality?

Pretty much never, if by "they" you mean "the internet nutbars who write political fan-fic and call it truth"; only very rarely if "they" are people with some degree of genuine political influence. At this point a significant fraction of the "conservative" electorate is practically indistinguishable from LaRouchites, Truthers, or hardcore UFOers.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:24 PM
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45
At what point are they accountable when what they say doesn't match reality?

I imagine it would vary from state to state. In Indiana, for example, the answer is probably "never." Rep. Dan Burton has pushed for the death penalty for drug dealers even though his son was arrested while allegedly in possession of eight pounds of marijuana (never spent any time in jail, though), and he shot a pumpkin trying to prove that Clinton murdered Vince Foster. Last week he was elected to his sixth or seventh term with 68 percent of the vote.

I think Conservapedia is an accurate representation of how the average Republican thinks these days. I know there are some sane people who still identify with the Republican Party and don't appreciate being lumped in with the nuts and I feel a little sorry for them, but it's not like anyone's forcing them to stay in the party.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:32 PM
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FWIW I'm trying to settle things down a bit over at Apo's Obama the Anti-Christ thread, although it would be cool to get to 3000 comments. There is one nutcase who I doubt will ever run out of steam, but I think most people are seeing him for what he is.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:39 PM
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I hope this is a joke.

Why is that?


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:41 PM
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49: Isn't that thread more than three years old now? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it came back to life yet again, but still.

Just so you know, you can relax. I wouldn't worry about anyone mistakenly getting the idea that someone commenting in that thread is sane.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:47 PM
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Cyrus,

I comment in that thread . . . and I haven't been accused of being crazed in, I dunno, six months or so.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:49 PM
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52: Don't worry, I said "mistakenly getting the idea." Since you brought it up, though, six months? Try three hours. That's the impression I got, at least; ajay can correct me if I'm wrong.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 1:59 PM
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Yeah, I'm waiting for clarification from ajay too. I think there is a misunderstanding at work here.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:06 PM
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46: Obama does not need a Qur'an. It's obvious that during his indoctrination at a madrassa he memorized it (that is what they do there), and he will be reciting it in his head during the ceremony.


Posted by: Yuri Guri | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:17 PM
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Isn't that thread more than three years old now?

Posted August 2004.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:23 PM
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55: Obama can transform a normal Bible into a Koran with a touch. (Only the King James Version, being God's Own Words, is immune.)


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:33 PM
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Tripp has a stamp on his hand that says "SANE". That's good enough for me.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:39 PM
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The book will have the accidents of a Bible but the substance of a Koran.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:42 PM
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56: Honest to the gods, I have got $1 that says that (barring disk failure, archive explosion, the cessation of blogging in the People's Republic of Mohammedstan, etc.) in February of 2017 there will be people in that thread arguing about whether the thousand year reign of the Anti-Christ is eight years old, hasn't started or is make-believe. I love that thread so much.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 2:47 PM
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Tripp's "SANE" stamp is on his forehead, and it's nested in a mandal of his own design.

Another Norm Coleman allegation turns out to be completely baseless.

But the American wingnutosphere completely believes the story, and a year from now they'll still believe it.

The first Coleman allegation was so unjustifiable that even Powerline didn't buy it. Powerline!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 3:01 PM
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Thanks Walt, but actually they are tattoos. Since I am left-handed it starts with my left pinky and says S A N E and the thumb has a question mark '?'.

So I think the question is still open at this time.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 3:09 PM
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Tripp, I can help you remove that ambiguity and be sane forever, with one quick stroke of a knife.


Posted by: Your hypnotic talking dog | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 3:15 PM
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Fido,

Thanks, but how much fun would that be, being completely sane?


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 3:30 PM
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54: in retrospect I shouldn't have posted that - it's perfectly obvious that Tripp wasn't being serious. ("You better hope the first swing takes me down cause otherwise you'll be real sorry" - heh. Is the passage original or is it a quote? It's very good either way.)

I have obviously been pwned by whatever Internet law it is that says that any parody, however broad, will still be taken as serious by at least one person. Boy, do I feel stupid.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 4:48 PM
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32 wasn't serious? It doesn't seem to be a quote from anything.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 4:50 PM
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I think the last paragraph wasn't serious. The "You see this fist? They used to call this fist THE HAMMER" paragraph. The rest seems OK, and I'm sure is true, but on rereading it there is a real shift in style and tone into the last paragraph which should have tipped me off.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 4:58 PM
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I use the "You see this fist? They call this fist apo's cock" line all the time. Scares the bejesus out of them.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 6:05 PM
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"You see this fist? They used to call this fist THE HAMMER"

"Now they call it THE PAPERWEIGHT."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 6:07 PM
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Arresting reminder on the front page of Conservapedia.

Remember, it's more dangerous to have a Bible in a public school these days than it is to have a student get her throat cut in front of her classmates.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 7:34 PM
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48: I think Conservapedia is an accurate representation of how the average Republican thinks these days.

Surely, sir, you go too far.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 7:40 PM
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Only the intellectuals among them, I'd guess.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 7:52 PM
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The "debate" pages are, um, informative. Currently active "scientific" debates include:

Does Darwinian natural selection suggest that bigotry is a necessary self-defense mechanism?
Does Darwinian natural selection suggest that homosexuality is bad for the survival of a species?
Is Darwinian natural selection compatible with Marxism?
Is the theory of macroevolution true?
Is Giving Birth the Bible Way Better?
Should Creationism/Intelligent design be taught as a scientific alternative to evolution in public schools?
God, Earth and Global Warming
Is the evidence in favor of evolution convincing?
Is Relativity in direct conflict with the Genesis account?
Why are God's works always questioned?
Is homosexuality a mental illness?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 7:59 PM
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Is Giving Birth the Bible Way Better?

Giving birth to the Bible is way better than giving birth to the Koran.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:11 PM
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Is Giving Birth the Bible Way Better?

Do they mean, like, in a manger?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:19 PM
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Here's a great debate topic: How can we protect Conservapedia by distinguishing real conservative encyclopedia articles from satires written by liberals?

I know I sure as fuck can't tell the difference between conservative positions and liberal satire. Interesting to see that conservatives have a hard time with this as well.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 8:20 PM
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76: Closely related to: "How can we protect Salon by distinguishing real Camille Paglia articles from satires written by liberals?"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-12-08 9:18 PM
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Is Darwinian natural selection compatible with Marxism?

Are cats compatible with quantum electrodynamics?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 11-13-08 9:29 AM
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Holf the time yes, half the time no.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-13-08 9:32 AM
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Strictly speaking that's only true until you open the box.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 11-13-08 9:53 AM
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Giving birth to the Bible is way better than giving birth to the Koran.

I'd dispute that. The Koran is a lot smaller.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-13-08 10:57 AM
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We will have a leader who sees the value of thinking things through instead of scaring up a MOB of cowards and psychos....AKA: Tripp, Jimmy Neutron, Capsaicin, Viva La Canadian Bacon, and of course the ever famous APOSTROPHER.

How's that for censorship asshole!


Posted by: Termi8ter | Link to this comment | 11-16-08 11:38 AM
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