Re: Hello, Noumen

1

I have a hard time getting worked up at all about this since I naturally distrust ministers of any stripe. However, I have chosen to see this as the most gay-friendly administration in American history telling the evangelicals that, hey, you're about to lose on this issue every single time for the next four years and probably for good thereafter, but if it makes you feel any better, we'll let you say a prayer before we get started.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 8:38 PM
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"I have chosen to see this as the most gay-friendly administration in American history telling the evangelicals that, hey, you're about to lose on this issue every single time for the next four years and probably for good thereafter, but if it makes you feel any better, we'll let you say a prayer before we get started."

You tell yourself whatever you have to. I have chosen to believe that you can't fight America's Pastor. But whatever. We'll see. Obama has a choice on this issue: He can either be LIncoln-esque or Clinton-esque. Here's to hoping he chooses wisely.


Posted by: ed | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 8:55 PM
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I have chosen to see this as Obama's gentle way of reminding us that he sucks.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 9:15 PM
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I have chosen not to see this.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 9:20 PM
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4: You're quite the phenom, ben.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 9:23 PM
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However, I have chosen to see this as the most gay-friendly administration in American history

There's no history of the future worth the telling, and since this administration hasn't actually happened yet, whatever it is or does is still in the future tense. I'd say the odds are very good it turns out to be more gay-friendly than previous administrations. But that's just a prediction. And since all we have to predict the future are past precedents and present indicators, I think those who care about gay rights are quite right to get worked up about this, and to make some noise. Coming after the passage of Prop 8 (in California?! wow.), the choice of Warren seems tone-deaf at the very least, and if I were a gay person I'm sure I'd see it as an insult. Also, and not unrelatedly, Pastor Rick is a misogynist creep.

It won't do to say that all clerics are homophobic misogynists and therefore it doesn't really matter which one you choose. This religion stuff really does matter in America, really does send some powerful signals which are then acted upon in real time in the public sphere ... Warren is quite actively, even aggressively, homophobic and misogynistic, and there are all kinds of alternatives who are basically inoffensive, whose homophobia and misogyny are much more latent than positively active, and yes, it really does matter whether it's just vestigial or whether it's part and parcel of a future-oriented programme. Warren is a bad choice, and it's not unreasonable to see this choice as a bad omen, where gay rights are concerned.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 9:41 PM
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I have chosen the left passageway.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 11:28 PM
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You are in a maze of twisted political opponents, all alike.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 11:29 PM
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Obama is a philosophically closer to Warren than he is to you folks. You have been had. Stevens will never make 2017, and Obama's justice will overturn or severely limit Lawrence. Roe & Choice are toast. But, but, Obama's black, and so cool!

Would President Clinton have had Warren deliver the invocation?

Probably, since Bush didn't really much care, be worse on social issues than the last eight years.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 11:33 PM
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Obama went to the Warren event, and is having Warren deliver the most important religious speech of Obama's entire life, because he really really likes Warren.

It's that simple.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 11:36 PM
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>attack orc?


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 12-28-08 11:45 PM
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At first I thought 'noumen' was being used in the sense of 'noumenon', but in the absence of any comment pointing out that 'noumen' is not the vocative of 'noumenon', I'm having doubts. Perhaps it's 'noumen' as in 能?, or Noh mask. I would enthusiastically support a compromise requiring Warren to wear a Noh mask when he delivers the invocation. This one would be good.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:13 AM
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Obama is a philosophically closer to Warren than he is to you folks....he really really likes Warren.

Interesting to think about the kind of guy who could be philosophically close to and really really like both Rick Warren and Jeremiah Wright. I prefer the hypothesis that Obama is a politician who tries to ally with whoever he thinks can help him at the time.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:22 AM
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in the absence of any comment pointing out that 'noumen' is not the vocative of 'noumenon'

Sometimes a crappy philosophy joke qua Seinfeld reference is just a crappy philosophy joke qua Seinfeld reference.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:34 AM
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And I might be using "qua" there incorrectly just to boil ben's blood mutton stew.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:37 AM
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It won't do to say that all clerics are homophobic misogynists and therefore it doesn't really matter which one you choose.

Well now, that isn't at all what I said. I said I naturally distrust ministers and so don't assign much import to which one gives a prayer at this or that public event. In my fantasy world, we'd stop having prayers at government events altogether, but I don't see my fantasy world coming any time soon so for now, I'll let the religious people fight among themselves about that one.

I'm reflexively happy to see Obama catch flak for it, because I'm like that, but there's just no convincing me that who gives one of two prayers at the inaugural means anything in concrete terms.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:44 AM
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And 9 is not your best work, bob.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:48 AM
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13:What do we know about Wright's positions on gay rights, abortion, and feminism? Since there is some slim connection to the Chicago Nation of Islam, I might make a guess that on many issues Wtight and Warren could be in near agreement.

In any case, although I would despise any politician that thought Rick Warren was important to his agenda, since I can't imagine the marginal portions of a supportable agenda that would benefit from Rick Warren's support...I actually think the Obama who was Wright's parishioner for so many years was the phony, and we are starting to see, to whatever degree there is such a thing, the real Obama.

Looks like Ronald Reagan.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:54 AM
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SPIEGEL: Can you be a good Christian and be pro-choice?

Wright: Both. You can be a good Christian and be pro-life. You can be a good Christian and be pro-choice.

SPIEGEL: You mean it's a purely political question and faith has nothing to say about it?

Wright: First of all, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. Neither one of us can get pregnant. But what a woman decides about her body and her God is her business. Women who are pro-life can be just a good a Christian as a woman who is pro-choice and vice versa. It gets to be a problem when I decide one position should be the law for everybody.

Washingtong Blade
"Absolutely not," said Rick Garcia, political director of Equality Illinois, the Chicago-based state gay rights group.

"Trinity has been among the strongest supporters of LGBT rights," Garcia said. "I have the highest regard and admiration for Rev. Wright."

Gay Chicago resident Ronald Wadley, a member of Trinity United Church of Christ, said Wright enthusiastically backed suggestions by gay church members to create a gay and lesbian singles ministry as part of the church's existing ministry to heterosexual singles.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:00 AM
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Bob's trolling aside, what it looks like from my straight secular perspective is that Obama took a preacher from the right and a preacher from the left (Joseph Lowery) and gave one the opening and the other the closing in a purely ceremonial function. Warren's creepy and reactionary, but he's a right-wing preacher. You can't find one that isn't.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:05 AM
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Fuck it. Obama and Rahm and their Blue Dog buddies and Chicago School Economists and realist imperialists are gonna do their thing, and the Obama supporters will think the sun shines from his ass for the next fifty years.

It's over. He has the power.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:06 AM
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19:Well, sheet, no wonder Obama dumped Wright when he no longer needed him.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:07 AM
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he sun shines from his ass for the next fifty years

Obama recently had his incandescent ass replaced with a compact fluorescent ass. It's part of greening the economy.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:56 AM
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I think those who care about gay rights are quite right to get worked up about this, and to make some noise.

This position is not incompatible with the belief that the Warren matter is inconsequential.

Obama's position on gay rights has been clear (if somewhat unsatisfactory). He hasn't wavered a bit in his publicly stated opinion. Obama's position on gay rights is much more likely to be enacted by Obama than Warren's.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 2:26 AM
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Since there is some slim connection to the Chicago Nation of Islam
Bob's got the Whitey tape! You know, some people will pay you good money for that.
He has the power.
Well now, I don't think I've heard even Obama supporters compare him to He-Man.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 7:18 AM
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>attack orc?

Nothing happens.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 7:42 AM
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There are two preachers preaching, you know. Is Obama zombie-like going to realize all of Preacher #2's ideals as well? Because, fuck, that's awesome!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 8:12 AM
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20: Ah, semi-pwnd by apo.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 8:15 AM
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Interesting to think about the kind of guy who could be philosophically close to and really really like both Rick Warren and Jeremiah Wright.

JEREMIAH WRIGHT WAS FOOLED!


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 8:44 AM
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27: And the order is nicely symbolic -- invocation by a preacher who reflects the past, benediction by a preacher who reflects the future?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 8:45 AM
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I thought Obama had publicly disowned Reverend Wright and stopped going to his church?

I see no reason to praise Obama for things he hasn't actually done yet. I'll fling bouquets if he repeals the Global Gag Rule and DOMA and DADT. But I see no reason not to fling rotten fruit for his picking an evil misogynistic homophoic bigot to deliver the invocation.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:25 AM
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||

No more masturbating to Samuel Huntington.

|>


Posted by: Marichiweu | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:30 AM
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I think what the Warren thing means is that Obama's administration is going to be purpose-driven -- nothing more, nothing less.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:30 AM
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the sun shines from his ass for the next fifty years

Obama recently had his incandescent ass replaced with a compact fluorescent ass. It's part of greening the economy.

actually, the prototype for the first man-made star was in Obama's ass. It runs on his natural gases, making it green, and, as a by-product, he no longer farts and his shit don't stink.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:39 AM
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14. I thought it was funny


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:40 AM
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Rick Warren is astonishingly untelegenic for a television evangelist/media personality.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 11:25 AM
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32: Dammit! I've really got to check Unfogged before I get started.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 11:52 AM
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Rick Warren is astonishingly untelegenic for a television evangelist/media personality.

Hell with it, then. No more masturbating to him, either.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:07 PM
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There's a funny article somewhere where someone takes a pseudo-algebraic formula Huntington used to pseudo-scientifically explain social disorder and applie routine algebraic transformations of it, getting entirely ridiculous results like (the square root of upward mobility) / (1 - social inequality) = (1/ social discontent)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:12 PM
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I don't want to brag or anything, but I wrote down a Taylor expansion of the Declaration of Independence about The Origin and found a very pleasing result in the limit that Men approaches Mankind.

Unfortunately, there is no room here in the margin.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:26 PM
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36: He looks increasingly like Jerry Falwell as he gets older and jowlier.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 12:46 PM
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He looks like the sort of mid-level executive that I get stuck sitting next to on airplanes. The vandyke and the big belly tenting up a Tommy Bahama shirt are particular markers.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 1:09 PM
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You know, it's a shame Tommy Bahama has become the signifier it has, because they're really wonderful fabrics, and a good chunk of the clothing straddles the nice/casual line well.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 2:29 PM
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Uh-oh. What does Tommy Bahama signify? I've been buying them for the cloth-- what rode along with the fashion?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 4:15 PM
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You have misogynistic homophobic Christian with a beard cooties.

Sorry.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 5:35 PM
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And Obama likes you.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 6:40 PM
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My uncle weirdly insisted on getting my sisters and I Tommy Bahama pullover sweaters last Christmas. They were cotton, pretty decent quality, but utterly unremarkable; I tried to return mine and discovered one, that it was unreturnable, and two, that a basic black cotton pullover with a half-length zipper cost over $80. My parents, who were with my uncle when he bought the damn things, said that he had them all picked out ahead of time, like some damn Tommy Bahama idée fixe. I had never heard of them before then.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 7:06 PM
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Somewhat apropos: John Stewart does a great takedown of Mike Huckabee about gay marriage in the Dec. 9th show. (Look, some of us don't have cable and get a little behind in our viewing.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 8:22 PM
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I predict that in two weeks Kraab will posting about how Thomas Freidman's wife has lost her billions.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 12-29-08 9:19 PM
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I'm posting from my brand new computer. It automatically filters out all pictures and videos of Rick Warren.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-30-08 9:53 AM
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