It took years to get them fully house-broken. Then they were properly house-broken for a few years until they got to be about six or seven, and then they became senile and lived for another good ten years having accidents in the house.
You should have sent them to live on one of them old dog farms, where a dog can run free, without a care in the world, until the end of his days.
I don't think Btock Lamerf has been seen around here since the thread in which he was disillusioned as to the existence of old dog farms.
Not very different from why I prefer cats. Though I still feel guilty about my attitude towards our dogs, and the sadness of their existence.
Sorry I can't share any stupid dog tricks, for my dogs have the dog-equivalents of Einstein's brains, Clinton's charm, and Obama's courtesy. They have neither BO or bad breath ever, and can roll in a recently dead armadillo and not smell. They can swim in mud and be miraculously clean in one hour.
They don't bark at falling leaves or even the postperson. They will let toddlers pull their ears. They frighten, but won't attack, pit bulls. They stop fights between other dogs by getting between, and protect smal dogs. They never throw up. They anticipate my commands, and sit spontaneously when not walking. They accept without restlessness or protest any vetinary attentions. They have been requested to be on three calenders this year. They hunt and fight cooperatively (if attacked, the female moves behind any dog being aggressive toward the male).
They play a decent Sicilian, cook a fine Szcechuan, and are the best lays I've ever had.
We had a very stupid cat once too. (He lives with a friend of mine now.) He didn't have great eyesight, and his other senses may have been dodgy too - he would walk into a room and then a few minutes later notice that there was already someone in there and jump a mile. Sweet-natured though.
I like both. We can't have cats; C is too allergic. We did have some for a while, and the superficial allergic reactions (itchy eyes, sneezing, etc) went, but his asthma got much much worse, and we rehomed them.
I like the low-maintenance feature of cats, and that you can do a lot more with a dog, most dogs being cleverer than most cats.
I love both dogs and cats but Rah is more of a cat person and I have no time to give a dog the attention and exercise it would need so we're a cats-only household. I grew up with both, though, and love to visit friends of ours who have dogs.
Regardless, 4 wins the thread no matter how long it goes.
I like the low-maintenance feature of cats
Absolutely. I also like that cats do what they want, not what you want. Dogs are authoritarian followers. Fuck 'em.
Terriers, particularly, are morons even for dogs; you shouldn't judge all dogs by them. But I'm lazy, which makes the self-maintaining aspect of cats attractive.
Re: the original post, however, a good friend of mine in high school had an exceptionally stupid Welsh Corgi that would lick a particular spot in the carpet, rotating around it counter-clockwise, for hours. He also did a lot of running head-first into the sliding glass door. They would just sit and watch him and shake their heads. Sweet as molasses and about as quick.
Why do people tend to conflate intelligence and obedience in dogs? The dogs I had growing up seemed pretty intelligent -- they clearly understood a lot of words (e.g. could find any of a large number of toys by name) -- but they weren't obedient at all. It seemed pretty clear that they just didn't care what you wanted them to do (sometimes they would do it, but only after a considerable delay, to make it clear it was their choice and not yours). The lack of obedience didn't seem to reflect stupidity.
Other people's dogs can be a problem for me, such as last night, when someone's un-leashed dog ran across the street and was menacing us (growling, ears back) as we tried to walk down the sidewalk to dinner. Owner was across the street, called it a couple of times, didn't much seem to care much about actually controlling it.
This doesn't happen with cats.
I grew up with cocker spaniels, and you'd have a hard time convincing me a more stupid breed of dog exists anywhere on God's green earth.
I like cats and dogs almost equally; I've got a cat because they're small and somewhat quiet and I generally just find them adorable and occasionally I do need to leave for a day or two and leave her here without anyone else.
But, my cat is not low-maintenance in the least - I don't have to spend an hour walking her every day, but I do have to spend an hour playing fetch and other various games she's made up. She needs her morning pet routine and snuggles at night and she reserves the right to co-opt anything I might be reading and turn it into a pillow. I've tried denying her these things. Then I live with a yowling terror (because, yes, I've allowed her to train me rather than the other way around). Some of the dogs I've cared for were much less work.
Dogs and cats are like people: people you invite to come live in your house for the rest of their lives with only a passing understanding of their personalities, which in turn may change almost entirely over the course of their time living with you. They are as much or more individuals as they are types of creatures. If it doesn't work out, you are responsible for either murdering them or convincing someone else to let them come and live with them. Also, they are nothing like people. Well, a little.
I grew up with both cats and dogs, though generally only one or two of each at a time, and enjoy them both. As an apartment dweller, I'm currently consigned to catdom. I know there are dogs who are fine living in an apartment, but I wouldn't be fine living with them. Our cat would prefer to live in a house, or at least someplace where he got to run up and down stairs, but he also refuses to help raise funds for a down payment, so there it is.
He also did a lot of running head-first into the sliding glass door.
My late, lamented doggie would slide open the doors with his snout.
I've had both over the years. Now, given an apartment and two flights of stairs, it's cats.
http://picasaweb.google.com/biohazard1941/Cats?feat=directlink#5313494029899797346
http://picasaweb.google.com/biohazard1941/Cats?feat=directlink#5313494318115468498
We used to have a collie/labrador cross when I was a kid: she was friendly (if greedy) and very protective of her humans, but she used to chase sheep and beat up smaller dogs. (We kept her on the leash in sheep country, but we had a problem with small dogs.)
She wasn't stupid, either, and she was well house-trained. Her one really awful flaw was she would eat the cat's crap from the litter box, which gave her horrible dog breath even more horror.
I like both, but other people's stupid, smelly, drooly dog can leave me doubtful.
I like cats pretty much universally, but a big, well-behaved, intelligent dog can really be quite amazing. On the other hand, small yappy bitey dogs just ought to be drop-kicked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PBue3miIl8&fmt=18
I don't like cats, and for others of my bent, here's youtube of my son and his friend avoiding schoolwork.
7 -- I had a Chuckchi dog, who was definitely not an authoritarian follower. I had a Pikuni before, who was devoted to me, and yet plenty capable of independent will. (More devoted after she ran off to join a pack for a couple weeks -- not as exciting as it seemed on paper.)
Does anyone have experience with this type of dog? If may be small and yappy, but my great aunt had one and I was the only person other than her that he liked. I think I am destined to have one.
Aside from that dog, my only experience has been with large dogs, and I just could not get used to them wet tongues and noses.
It took years to get them fully house-broken.
You've been told about babies, right?
If anyone knows how to get my cat to stop trying to open the front door by snapping back the metal threshold, please let me know. We let him hang out in the courtyard with us once or twice, and now there's no keeping him down on the sofa after he's seen Paree.
There is a very debilitating and painful genetic disease called MPS-IIIB that affects humans, emus, and Schips. When considering the purchase of a Schipperke, you should request proof of MPS testing for both the sire and the dam.
Humans, emus, and schipperkes, eh? Sounds like a natural kind to me. Our quaint taxonomical notions may have to be upended.
I'd like a pig for a pet, except maybe I couldn't eat them then, and pigs are so yummy.
They're also high maintanence, and I don't really want any pets period.
25: A high school friend would routinely feed chicken to his mom's pet bird. He was a bit demented (the friend, that is; the bird seemed fine with it).
Was the pet bird a chicken?
28: Nope. But the pet bird sure did like chickens. The cooked kind, I mean.
Chickens eat one another when possible.
Just don't breed with emus. It's a genetic, non-contagious disease.
21: A friend of mine is in love with the breed. They seem like wee dogs with a bit of swagger. My friend's was named Zeus and Zeus used to enjoy humping my doggie, who was easily 10x his size. This earned my pup the nickname Ganymede.
I wonder whether there is some deep difference between dog people and cat people. Because I am one of those intense dog-lovers, cat-tolerators, I believed this.
I guess the basis for my theory was that dogs have souls and cats are soulless robots. So I was thinking that it says something about a person that they can love a soulless robot.
But this theory has been challenged far too many times for me to continue holding it. I mated with a cat- lover, dog tolerator and we gave birth to a cat-lover, dog-fearer. (Although my dog managed to win my mate over and now he will accept having a dog, if our lives ever became dog-friendly. We have a kind of adopted/shared cat at the moment.)
Then, my professional nemesis turned out to be a huge dog lover with several incredibly charming dogs. This person is actively trying to damage my career. And yet this person loves dogs and damn, those are some incredibly compelling dogs he's got.
I worked on the theory some more and decided that perhaps it is not a moral issue. Maybe it is something more like: It says something about a person if they are willing to have a pet that can theoretically kill them or if they prefer a pet that can only kill small and helpless creatures. It's a kind of will-to-power thing and people with the will-to-power are capable of both good and evil.
I'm still working out the anomalies.
It says something about a person if they are willing to have a pet that can theoretically kill them or if they prefer a pet that can only kill small and helpless creatures.
I like this categorization. Perhaps people like myself and Paris Hilton who only want dogs that are less than two feet tall are actually cat people and should stick to cats.
21: "Males are decidedly masculine without coarseness. Bitches are decidedly feminine without overrefinement."
Sounds like the Republican Party's ideal dogs. You sure you want one?
"Any deviation from the ideal described in the standard should be penalized to the extent of the deviation. Faults common to all breeds are as undesirable in the Schipperke as in any other breed, even though such faults may not be specifically mentioned in the standard."
Vietnamese pot-bellied pigs are going feral in South Dakota. Pigs are extremely viable in nature. Maybe beef cattle are, but not dairy. Mutt dogs are, but I doubt that most special breeds are. I'm not sure house cats are viable outside cities. Industrial turkeys aren't, that's for sure. Chickens must not be, because I've never heard of a feral chicken.
7: I also like that cats do what they want, not what you want
Well, you know, until they become senile and pee all over the place.
And if anyone has ever been in doubt about McManus, I refer you to 4, and won't take any lip about it.
Continuing 34, people who have pythons or chimpanzees in the house would be grouped with dog people. And this cat is actually a dog.
Pigs are not that hard to litter train, but if you blow it there's no second chance. They'll pick a spot where they like to shit, and stick to that no matter what.
They genereally have a Rain Man-style need for regular routines and habits.
33: While stipulating that my cats are not soulless robots, I know perfectly well that while they will not kill me, if I die and they are trapped in the house with me, they will eat my dead face.
That's fine with me: I'll be dead, I won't know.
It's a bit tough on whoever finds my corpse and hysterical cats, though.
I shall try not to die in the same house as my cats.
Pigs are also more prone to bossing you around than either cats or dogs.
It says something about a person if they are willing to have a pet that can theoretically kill them or if they prefer a pet that can only kill small and helpless creatures.
Hey, now. Cats can do more damage then many of those small dogs...
The Schipperke is also known as the "Tazmanian black devil" and "little black devil," often because they can be stubborn, mischievous, and headstrong.
Because they are naturally curious and high-energy dogs, when Schipperkes are bored, they often damage property and wreak havoc. Schipperkes are very smart, and sometimes debate listening to owners and doing whatever benefits them the most. This requires a stubborn and patient owner to housebreak.
The more attention you give them, they more rewarding they are. They will behave wonderfully when quality time is spent with them.
My guess is that this Wiki article had more than one author.
My small, yappy and sometimes bitey, dog often smells bad (or used to) because I gave him swimming lessons by throwing him in the creek. Therefore his nickname, even when clean, is Stinky. Stinky is probably too aggressive, and this seems to be a particular issue of his litter. Since his sister is also somewhat aggressive. She is not very trainable, unlike him, because she was born deaf, and the people who got her first, treated her terribly. So she grew eating out of garbage cans and otherwise being kicked and ignored. This means she tends to eat anything not nailed down, like bird seed. And paper wrappers that used to contain food and the like. It sucks because she is a terribly sweet dog (except when in yappy attack mode).
On the other hand, kitty is very nice cat, an excellent mouser, even if he is a complete coward. The feral I got stuck with is something of a raving asshole, on the other hand, and I have the many scratch marks to prove it.
max
['I have never really understood the whole cats versus dogs thing.']
For the record, I vastly prefer cats to dogs, and it is the partner who has always had dogs. I obviously like dogs ok fine.
I had one cat of my own, on my own, the only pet that was mine, for nine years. He died, horribly. I won't have another.
Having your cat(s) die sucks. Having your dog(s) die sucks too.
Having your X die sucks, for almost all values of X.
Why am I not surprised that Apo knows the information conveyed in 31?
Re. Emerson's doubts about the viability of feral cats, there was for a while a population of gerald in the Antarctic, near an abandoned research station, the descendants of a pregnant pet. They had to be destroyed bc they were too much of a threat to baby penguins or skuas or something, but if feral cats can survive in Antarctica they can pretty much make it anywhere.
I love both dogs and cats when they belong to other people, but I can't see myself living with a dog, generally for OFE's reasons in 7. (Mother allergic, so nothing north of mice as a kid.)
ANTARCTICA'S GENOCIDE AGAINST MY POPULATION IS WAY UNCOOL
Dogs can be okay, but it's such a crapshoot finding one that doesn't drool or yap or bark at everything or eat feces or dig in the bathroom trash or worst of all just smell like dog all the time
Plus I'm not really into carrying little plastic bags of poo with me on my walks.
It's nice that B. has put it all on the line like this.
I do see cats patrolling my neighborhood as old as zero. They have regular routes and make visible paths in the snow.
It may be that cats outside cities just can't outcompete coyotes, actual wild cats, feral dogs, weasels, etc. I don't hear about any rural feral cats, though.
being eaten by ptbellied pigs would be the ultimate nightmare punishment, for only the worst miscreants. "You honor, my client is willing to plead guilty in return for an honorable death by full sized hog.
I don't hear about any rural feral cats, though.
Barn cats?
Apparently common in Australia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cats
Dog culture is just, like, a thing. If you're a dog owner who takes it seriously, with the walks and the trips to the park, and the training sessions, it's kind of nice; people speak a language, dog-owner language. Ideally, dog and owner/handler speak a (private) language as well.
But it is a project, it seems to me.
They've also apparently grown huge.
http://www.wherelightmeetsdark.com/index.php?module=wiki&page=EngelGippslandBigCat
(Icky dead cat picture.)
Feral hogs are really entirely independent of humans, except that they eat crops. Yay feral hogs! But feral cats seem more like rats, parasitical or mutual with humans.
People have said that parrots are as smart as dogs, and can learn to recognize many words and respond to them.
||
Do these sociopaths at AIG who are taking bonuses right now have names? And addresses?
I'd like to see them go in front of the American people (the majority shareholder in their company) and explain why, knowing what we know now, they still deserve million dollar bonuses.
|>
Australia has seemed very weakly resistant to introduced mammals (rabbits, dingoes) and the feral cat seems to be another example. I think that feral cats have done a lot of damage in Hawaii and on other Pacific islands too. No competition and no predators, I think.
People have said that parrots are as smart as dogs, and can learn to recognize many words and respond to them.
Relies on a strange (or at least, strangely unitary) definition of "smart". Parrots probably have better language abilities than dogs, for some definition of language abilities, but in terms of understanding what humans want at any given point, I think dogs are pretty much unmatched. In terms of gaze following and joint attention ( at least when dealing with humans), for instance, I don't think even the smartest chimps hold a candle to dogs. That might just be because they don't give a shit, of course.
and explain why, knowing what we know now, they still deserve million dollar bonuses.
Because they signed a contract, and that's what the contract said, and the company isn't technically bankrupt?
Actually I'd be kind of excited if Congress passed a special one-time exemption to contract law covering bonuses to AIG financial executives. Doubt it'll happen, though, and it probably would face constitutional challenges even if it did.
64 rats on pac islands, right? Ate the birds eggs
Maybe. We don't actually know what the contracts may specify.
61: damn, that thing is more than three feet long exclusive of the tail! I see excellent horror movie possibilities here.
66: I didn't say "legally entitled to." I said "deserve."
70: eh, testing their ability to sit under hot lights and construct self-serving explanations does very little for me.
70: Barney Frank seems to be looking for ways to invalidate at least some contracts, which might help solve for both "deserve" and "are legally entitled to". For instance, if it can be proven there was fraud involved somewhere, or some other breach of contract. Don't know how likely that is, of course...
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How stupid is it that when I saw a link to Larry Tribe's book "Invisible Constitution" I thought "whoah, how awesome would it be if the cover was a cat dressed up in judge's robes?"
Pretty stupid, I'm thinking.
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feral cats have done a lot of damage in Hawaii and on other Pacific islands too
Cats inflict huge damages on native bird populations particularly on islands and shores. For example, there is a study showing that on one of the Hawaiian islands that has feral cats, the fledging survival rates of seabirds is 13%. On one without, it's 83%. There are other factors, of course, but that seems to indicate just how much of a problem they can be. (Data taken from here).They are lethal predators, even if we don't necessarily have that view of them. (Also, apparently, cats will "go postal" in ways that other predators rarely do).
(Also, apparently, cats will "go postal" in ways that other predators rarely do)
Fed up with the drudgery of daily life in the feral cat colony, they'll return to the colony and mow down the other feral cats with a machine gun?
mow down the other feral cats
I first read this as "meow down the other feral cats". Aw, it's so cute, this slaughter!
Yes. Even in ecologies like the British Isles, where local wildlife evolved to deal with feline predators (the British wildcat looks something like a giant tabby someone hit with a brick) pet cats are lethal to local prey and unfair competition to local predators. I bell both my cats. No one else in the neighbourhood bothers, though, so we don't have any songbirds.
My younger cat kills mice. I've seen him eye foxes in a very macho way, but I really hope he doesn't try anything.
I'm still trying to parse the use of the word "Yes" in 77. So they do mow down other cats with a machine gun?
No. They use a meowgun, like all the other cats.
I stole the phrase go postal from the article, but essentially, they will occasionally kill far more birds than they need to - as in, hundreds more.
I like the idea of a meowgun way more, though.
I've seen him eye foxes in a very macho way, but I really hope he doesn't try anything.
He'd have to be crazy. I've occasionally fussed in human neurotic style about my cats being outdoors with foxes around, but seriously, the cats are not stupid.
MY LIFE WITH THE THRILL KILL CATS
Related vaguely to the discussion: best cat name ever? Chairman Meow.
Eye foxes are smaller than the regular kind, obviously, or they couldn't get in the corner of your eye like that.
best cat name ever?
Bucket.
That said, part of me really wants to name our next cat Handsome Edition.
best cat name ever? Chairman Meow.
Been done again and again. "Battlecat," FTW.
Servility is not intelligence, as someone pointed out above. Parrot owners who have worked on the theory that parrots are more than just mimics have been
I heard of a cat named "Rebobinar". That's a good one.
Nemo, our current cat, recently killed a rat quite neatly, which I think was both rather impressive of him--he's not that large of a cat--and surely a not appropriate contribution to the local ecosystem.
You can't judge cat names, silly. Current cat who has two puncture wounds in his cheek, to which I apply a hot compress nightly, name: Blackheart (yeah, right, like that was ever going to work), real name: Boy. You say this brightly: "Boy! BoyBoy!"
No! A not inappropriate, I meant to say! What an embarrassment.
Mongooses were introduced to Hawaii to deal with the rat problem in cane fields. Problem was, rats are nocturnal and mongooses are diurnal, so as I heard from a Hawaiian, they only meet at dusk. Meanwhile, the mongooses took up the rats' practice of snarfing up native birds' eggs.
best cat name ever? Chairman Meow.
Wrong! It's Blackie Onassis.
I've got a left arm full of scars that says Battlecat is the best name evar. Wanna knife fight over it?
87: "have been amazed at their comprehension and responsiveness."
94: Well, it's true, I'll see you Battlecat and raise you Fang.
In terms of understanding what humans want at any given point, I think dogs are pretty much unmatched. In terms of gaze following and joint attention ( at least when dealing with humans), for instance, I don't think even the smartest chimps hold a candle to dogs.
I have been told of a guy who had trained his dogs to do blow jobs too, byt that doesn't make them intelligent.
I knew someone who named their cat Cthulhu. I used to think that was the best name for a cat until all humor was drained out of H. P. Lovecraft references by the Internet.
Okay, Emerson, I understand you're trolling me. Social cognition is servility, social security is dead, Obama is a failure, philosophers are a cabal and economists should be fed to hogs. I get it. It's boring, but I get it.
You're failing to figure out what I want. But then, I'm boring you and failing to entertain you. What to do? What to do?
Might there be forms of intelligence ofter than figuring out what humans want?
Might there be forms of intelligence ofter than figuring out what humans want?
No fucking shit, dude. Now you're a dime-store Socrates? Seriously yes, okay, what I meant was that because birds don't give blowjobs that it's impossible to define intelligence. You nailed that one perfectly.
Bitch, bitch, bitch...
OK, parsi, my left arm and Fang vs. yours and Battlecat. The first to call it quits loses.
All animals, even the lowest, must have understanding, that is to say, knowledge of the law of causality, although they may have it in very dif erent degrees of keenness and clearness. At any rate they must always have as much as is necessary for intuitive perception with their senses; for sensation without understanding would be not merely a useless, but even a cruel, gift of nature. No one who himself has any intelligence will doubt its existence in the higher animals....Schopenhauer
because birds don't give blowjobs that it's impossible to define intelligence
Yet another strike against The Bell Curve.
See, if I hadn't realized that talking about your own pet's adorableness is even more boring for people who do not really know you or your pet than talking about how wonderful your children are to that same set of people,* I would have filled this thread with all the reasons my cat is in fact better than your cat, dog, bird, alligator, sister, and/or honor roll student.
*I love hearing stories about other people's children, whether or not I know them or not. But I've been led to understand that this is not universal.
A bird would have to be brilliant to give a blowjob. The sharp beak and small tongue present insuperable problems.
Ah wretch, said they, the bird to slay, that gave the sleaze a blow.
104: Hey, babe, Fang retired a few years ago, I was sad to hear. I was at an opening of my ex-roommate's homemade instruments and such, and Fang was his cat, so of course I asked after him. Alas, sad faces.
Fang was one helluva cat, I tell you what, though. He was a little stupid for getting into cat fights outdoors, so we had to tend his abscessed wounds all freakin' time, but okay, it was Fang, you know? He didn't take no shit from no one, no how.
It says something about a person if they are willing to have a pet that can theoretically kill them or if they prefer a pet that can only kill small and helpless creatures.
I like this too. My dog might be able to kill me if he really tried and I didn't fight back, but he could certainly do me more harm than a cat. But I've never had much of an urge to get a big dog.
(And hey, he's a terrier, and he's no moron! Just wilfully disobedient.)
Bagging dog shit isn't too bad (another pro of a small dog) - definitely better than changing toddler nappies. Much better though of course to have a pet that mainly shits in other people's gardens. (Joke, joke, joke, people. Just in case.)
107 - tell your stories - people can skip them if they want. I like pet stories. My old cat lives with my parents, and when she goes out she uses the door knocker (which is rather low down and shaped like a fox) to knock at the door so they let her back in. This week they removed the knocker for a couple of days to repaint the front door. She went out, and after a while reappeared at the back door. When my parents next went out, they found scratches in the fresh paint where she'd scrabbled about a bit looking for the missing knocker.
Much better though of course to have a pet that mainly shits in other people's gardens
You could toilet train your kids to do it...
It says something about a person if they are willing to have a pet that can theoretically kill them or if they prefer a pet that can only kill small and helpless creatures.
I dunno - every time my somewhat insane [and possibly too-early-motherless] cat Kiri sits on my chest and "nurses" on my throat, kneading and purring all the while, I am reminded that a hearty bite into the pulsing artery on my neck would not lead to a life of blissful [albeit dietarily-challenged] undeaditude, but spurting fountains of haemoglobin and a probably bleed-out.
Izzy, OTOH, should she ever decide she doesn't like us, is far more likely to plot an assassination, what with being about the smartest cat I've ever had.
The only dog I've ever lived with long-term was a) too low to the ground to be much of a threat and b) thick as a plank.
113 - they're rubbish at jumping over walls though. I thought they'd be cute, but they're terrible pets.
(Also, I am bored of the youngest being so little. She can't read or tell the time - so incompetent! I think I am past my parenting peak.)
All this is making me think of the late Waffles. (No link because the very sad story of Waffles is apparently in the Lost Archives of The Poor Man.)
Aw, poor Waffles. He was a good cat.
Noodles the Pirate is also a good cat, and is hilarious to watch leaping into the air after a toy on three legs.
You guys really don't want to be visited with actual pictures of cats, right? so cut it out.
And yeah, this business about how cats can't do you any damage: try a cat waking you up in the morning by extending her claws onto your eyelid. A couple of times I've unthinkingly smacked her in the face. Shit, sorry! But don't do that!
Have another kid or two, Asilon. You'll get your groove back. Mu mom said it doesn't get any worse after four. Why she stopped at seven I have no idea.
but in terms of understanding what humans their pack leaders want at any given point, I think dogs are pretty much unmatched.
Fixed that for you.
120: well, no, that's not really clear. And in point of fact, it's not that clear how much they really are experiencing joint attention. But domesticated dogs are specifically good at following gestures in a gaze in a way that no (okay, few) other non-human animals are.
OK, you go on anthropomorphising animals which diverged evolutionarily from human 90 million years ago. No skin off my nose.
That... I'm not... technical definition... okay, whatever.
Smacking cats that try to wake you up with claws in the face is how they learn.
Incidentally, with 124 and previous I've sort of wandered into an ongoing debate (about how much social cognition is really evident in domesticated dogs, and whether that's particularly unique, and so on) that I'm not fully up on. But anyhow I'm representing one take on the data.
re: 122
Tweety's pointing to new research that's been done on domesticated dogs; which we've selected, via artificial selection, for traits that make them able to interact with us in a way that wild dogs and wolves cannot. There's no anthropomorphising involved.
Yeah, probably. No time to think about it. Gone.
Aw, dumb pet stories. Makes me miss Panda.
We had several cats while I was a kid, but Panda (named for his coloration, but when he grew up it became a good description of his size too) tended to follow me around and stuff, so he was sort of my cat.
Now, most cats like having their bellies rubbed and all cats like sitting on high places, right? But Panda, the poor guy, had to learn the hard way that those two hobbies don't mix. Whenever I saw him sitting on the edge of a bed or the top of the stairs, I could go up to him and make cutesy noises and kind of pet him on his side to encourage him to roll over, and if I did it right, he'd roll right off the bed or down the stairs. Meow-thumpthumpthump. As he got older he finally learned, but for a couple years it was the funniest thing.
NO IT WASN'T!!!!!!1!1!!!
Cyrus, I had a stoopid cat who used to do exactly the same thing (didn't even need her tummy rubbed:she'd just get the idea it would be fun to roll over on to her back, and she'd roll r-i-i-i-g-ht off the chair... or the bed...or the wall...).
I used to think this was just her being particularly dumb (the other cat I had then was the smartest cat I've ever met, so) but then I visited the farm where she was born, and encountered a whole clutter of cats all of whom did the roll, roll, roll r-i-i-i-g-ht off.... so I figured it was genetic. The result of being so inbred every cat in the pounce is its own second cousin and great-grandparent, too.
Of course this was Devonshire. There's not a lot else but inbreeding to do in Devonshire. (I can say this as I am ancestrally Devonshire myself, on my father's side, and also my second cousin and my great-grandfather, too...)
Just be careful when you're lying on chairs, Jesurgislac.
132: Huh, I never knew about that. It seems unlikely to be inbreeding, though, because most of our cats were related and Panda, unlike at least one other, was actually not inbred, but AFAIK he was the only one who did this. However, he was partially Manx, so maybe that mutation threw off his balance. (Although, again, he had more of a tail than some other cats.)
whole clutter of cats
every cat in the pounce
I never thought of using either of these as a collective noun for housecats, but I guess there's no better option, is there? "Pack" implies canids, "pride" implies lions...
The standard collective nouns for cats are "pounce" or "clowder". Kittens get their own: "kindle".
4 is wondeful, but I was puzzled by "They play a decent Sicilian" -- are you saying they are ok chess players or that they do a passable impression of a mafioso? Or both?
4 is wondeful, but I was puzzled by "They play a decent Sicilian" -- are you saying they are ok chess players or that they do a passable impression of a mafioso? Or both?
I'm with Parsi. Fang is the most awesome name for a cat. Even better when it's short for Cardinal Fang. Now that was a cat who would attack humans--he would go for the back of the calf. He brought a few of us down, too, if only out of surprise (and/or pain if shorts were being worn).
We had a leather work glove that was the the only way once could play safelky with him, although the instinctual "back claws are for gutting" issue still caused a lot of deep wrist scratches. Little bastard. Man, I miss him.
135: GOD BLESS THE KITTEN THAT'S GOT ITS OWN!!!!
Why does English have so many different collective nouns for animals, anyway? I saw a list somewhere with something like 40 entries on it: a bevy of pigeons (I think), a murder of crows, a clutch of something-or-other...
What purpose do they serve? What additional information is conveyed, since most of them are so obscure that they need to be placed in the context of their animal? "Pack," "flock" and "school" for land, air and water animals respectively should be good enough. (Why three different words when one would do? Partly because there's no reason to simplify things that much; this isn't Newspeak or anything. And partly because it might be useful to distinguish which environment the animals are in. Is a cassowary flightless? I don't know, but if so, I'd say they travel in packs. If not, flocks. Even if that is contrary to current usage, it's still not confusing to have only three words rather than 40.)
140:Why does English have so many different collective nouns for animals, anyway?
Why not?
I just put a poll up on my blog to see who votes for clowder, clutter, nuisance, glaring, or pounce. (All of which I find listed as collective nouns for house cats, though there's a case to be made that cats shouldn't have a collective noun at all as they are all individuals no matter how many you have.) Dout and destruction are the collective nouns for wildcats; kindle, kendle, and litter are all collective nouns for kittens.
141 combined with 142 suggests an English kitten-hunting tradition, which is pretty much what I'd expect from a people who make such a fuss over slaughtering cute little foxes.
135. Kittens get their own kindle? Is there anything appropriate for them to read on it?
142
Why not?
Because it's confusing? Although according to MM's link, being confusing is the whole point of it, to make the lexicon of heraldry inaccessible to peasants. Today, however, we're more democratic. Whoever uses "clowder," "clutter," "glaring" or "pounce" to describe housecats must hate democracy. However, I have to admit that "nuisance" is acceptable.
Sometimes languages seem to just go crazy developing unnecessary words. Japanese and Chinese both have dozens (hundreds?) of "counters" which you need to know to count most things, and divide objects into incredibly arbitrary categories.
141. And when you've decided what to call a bunch of them, you have to know what to do with then when they're cooked.
divide objects into incredibly arbitrary categories
Those that belong to the emperor, those that are fabulous, those that are drawn with a fine camelhair brush, those that have just broken the water pitcher, ....
And now I'm hearing the list linked in 148 as lyrics to the Broken Social Scene song "Anthems for a Seventeen-Year Old Girl".
I bell both my cats. No one else in the neighbourhood bothers, though, so we don't have any songbirds.
Ah. Aspect of my neighborhood explained. Always just ascribed it to urbanity, but there's actually a decent amount of nature in the area. As well as a decent number of (semi-)feral cats.
If we could get the cats to do something about the squirrels, that would be awesome.
BTW, it's not hard to find dogs that lack the traditional negative dog characteristics. In particular, I've had good luck with husky-looking* mutts - smart, not esp. barky**, not at all licky or drooly, not manic eaters. Dignified, as long as you ignore the inherent canine attitude towards pee.
* Huskie? Anyway, pointy snout, prick ears, curly tail. Also, you know, gorgeous.
** The one that was mostly Siberian husky barked like twice in 4 years. My current one barks at other dogs sometimes, but that's about it.
best cat name ever? Chairman Meow.
I told you the story about my friend the curator of an architecture center? Was very impressed that an acquaintance had named her cat Moshe Safdie, only to learn that it was, in fact, Mr. Softy.
lthough the instinctual "back claws are for gutting" issue still caused a lot of deep wrist scratches.
I knew a cat once (name of pudgeman, much deserved) who cause 20+ stitches this way to a guy who, to be entirely fair, sort of deserved it.
Wow, I've just recalled that my parents had my childhood cat declawed because once when I was carrying her (to the car? to go to the vet?) she gouged my little girl neck very badly, blood all over the place, couldn't detach the kitty easily from the neck, etc.
Good times! I always thought it was cruel to declaw the cat in any case, but I understand my parents' position, and Fluffy was not an outdoor cat anyway.
Seems to me that declawing has a similar significance among (certain) cat owners as neutering does among (certain) dog owners. Obvs., outdoor cats need claws, but that's just shifting things one level.
I'll tell you the story again of the starving half-grown kitten we took in once ("Fric"). It came to believe that I was its mother. It suckled on my beard. One time I threw it off my lap about twenty times in two or three minutes, a little farther each time (but not hard enough to hurt him.) On the night of a full moon I woke to find him sitting on my chest and gazing intently at my face. True fact. He was steaing my soul.
He also maditated on the bathtub drain a lot. Every morning the tub was full of pawprints. I finally cured him of sleeping on my bed by filling the tub half full (not deep enough todrown him) and throwing him in every time I found him on my bed at night. (He did not sleep quietly at my feet, more often on my head.)
He also maditated
OM, GODDAMMIT!
One of my now-deceased felines brought me the first ruby-crowned kinglet I ever saw. I didn't add it to my life list, because that would have been cheating.
159: You need a "birds I have seen dead" list.
156: I've never been much of a dog owner, so I'm not sure of the significance of neutering a dog. People don't do that routinely? That is, one has one's cats spayed/neutered as a matter of routine.
As for the declawing, whenever I was challenged to say why I objected (in retrospect, having been too young at the time to have an opinion) -- question being "Well, why not?" -- I found myself floundering into some kind of "Well, state of nature, don't strip the cat of its thing which makes it what it is, um."
Sidebar about the spaying/neutering: my grandmother insisted on calling Fluffy, who had been spayed as a matter of routine, "it" rather than "her." Drove me bananas.
141 combined with 142 suggests an English kitten-hunting tradition, which is pretty much what I'd expect from a people who make such a fuss over slaughtering cute little foxes.
Much of Western Europe had a tradition of hunting, killing, torturing and otherwise abusing cats in the 17th and 18th centuries (and possibly earlier). Robert Darnton's excellent The Great Cat Massacre is very informative on this, unsurprisingly.
My friends and I co-owned a dog named Hannibal Barker. After we got him neutered we used to tease him by calling him "Annabelle".
The first time my city-cat-turned-country-cat caught a mouse, he brought it to us. In bed, at three AM. Alive. My then husband woke up to find the cat on his chest, mouse dangling from its mouth. Poor cat didn't know what to do with this thing he had caught. We told him he was a good, good cat, tossed the mouse out the door and resigned ourselves to our future, which included many gifts of live mice. [Our house was a converted barn with all too many places for a mouse to get in. Fortunately, they were country mice, not city mice on crack. The chipmunks had the sense to stay in the attic, where they clustered near the chimney in winter and played skittles all night long.]
During my three years here I've been hoping to see or hear one of my favorite birds, the western meadowlark, which used to be quite common and has a distinctive, lovely song. I haven't heard it once, and the only one I've seen was dead. A wildlife-photographer friend here says that manyof the songbird populations has plummeted.
Anti-environmentalist sneer about Chicken Littles predicting impending disasters that never happen, but the devastation of the songbirds has already happened, as has the devastation of the frogs. The real problem is that anti-environmentalists just don't think that wild natural species have any value at all and should not be the object of public policy. Many of them don't even care about salmon runs, which have actual economic value. They just tot up the dollars and decide that on the balance, letting the salmon runs disappear is the economically most rational choice.
164: Growing up, our cats used to routinely gift us with mice, rats, snakes, crayfish, baby possums, birds, etc. After seeing one of the momcats bring a wounded mouse to one of her half-grown kittens to teach him how to hunt, I wondered if they were trying to do the same thing for us, since they had never seen us stalk and catch anything.
as has the devastation of the frogs
Man, I'm going to listen for/to and appreciate the frog chorus out back this summer. The stream back there is pretty pathetic, but the frogs still sing their song.
I like 167! Sometimes people seem to think cats are stupid or something, but they know something's wrong when they see it.
Eh, though, cats bringing wounded bunnies rabbits into the house is a drag. Rabbits scream a lot, terrible. More than once I've rescued a rabbit who's just in shock, brought it outside, fairly far away, to find what I think is the same damn bunny brought back by the cat 45 minutes later. Dammit!
Italicized "bunnies" in 169 should be a strikeout. I don't see from i versus s.
167
After seeing one of the momcats bring a wounded mouse to one of her half-grown kittens to teach him how to hunt
All together now: AWWWWWWW.
All together now
BitchPhD has an exemption.
My roommate's cat brought a half-dead monster cockroach onto my bed one evening. My screaming and flailing about were apparently enough of a negative reinforcement to keep her from doing it again.
YOU TWOLEG MOTHERFUCKERS ARE SUCH WUSSY LITTLE INGRATES!!!!1!!!!
154: In exactly this fashion, I got a nice red stripe across my wrist Saturday morning from a sweet kitty named Yellow Dog.
||
Thank goodness: Geithner is going to try to block the AIG bonuses; and Andrew Cuomo says he will subpoena the names of executive bonus recipients.
|>
167: When I lived in Chicago a stray can dropped a litter of kittens in our garage. I would go out and give them milk and such. One day I cam back and the momcat and all the kittens were gathered around a dead bird, blood dripping from their little fangs, just like a pride of mini-Lions. Eventrually we found homes for the kittens, but the mom remained feral.
176: NPR seems to be discussing nothing but this. It still doesn't sound to me as though it can be blocked. The popular will butts heads directly against contract law! Interesting.
The popular will butts heads directly against contract law!
Go will!
For a period of time we had one of those smartest-evah/dumbest-evah cat pairs. Dumb incompetent cat would from time-to-time have a go at the pigeons that congregated at our neighbors when we lived in Orange County (who kept doves outside in a cage). He could not kill, only wound, and it is amazing how well pigeons fly even when grievously wounded and bleeding copiously; one in particular smearing blood all across several interior walls and various pieces of furniture while I did the sitcom thing trying to catch it/herd it out.
*Who eventually proved too dumb to live; his one danger avoidance algorithm was run fast towards the house, even when the thing you are afraid of is a car and you are on the other side of the road—although he amazingly survived two residences with iffy cat/traffic setups, he came to grief at a third.
I think that the popular will, if there is one, will be able to find enough leverage one way or another to convince the Shearers of AIG to "voluntarily" relinquish their bonuses. My guess is that there was an enormous amount of self-dealing involved in these contracts.
I've seen a cat catch a dove half its size. At our birdfeeder. I do not necessarily like outside cats.
159: I think I would have trouble not getting mad at the cat it if it brought me as lovely and cute a bird as ruby-crowned kinglet, who I can watch all day. A starling, on the other hand, would be fine by me.
162: Robert Darnton's excellent The Great Cat Massacre is very informative on this, unsurprisingly.
Ooh, good book. Very entertaining, to the point that I've considered gifting family members with it, which I have learned to never do with history books.
167: I wondered if they were trying to do the same thing for us, since they had never seen us stalk and catch anything.
I definitely think this is what is going on, given the way my cat brings me all of her toys, even the ones that I don't play with with her. She does it when I'm sleeping - clearly, I'm bored, I'm just lying there, I must want something to play with, right?
Currently, my pride and joy is standing on the top of the printer, pressing buttons ever so delicately as though she's sure that any second now she's going to get paper to come out of the thing. Instead, the damn thing is just squawking.
Is our will the popular one, or is there another, more widely-liked lawyer working on this issue?
Currently, my pride and joy is standing on the top of the printer, pressing buttons ever so delicately as though she's sure that any second now she's going to get paper to come out of the thing.
My three year old does more or less the same thing.
185: your three year old human, or your three year old cat?
My three year old does more or less the same thing.
Does she/he then try to eat the paper? That's the next step for the cat. Followed by triumphantly lazing upon it, after eating has failed.
Our will is a specific will, not the general will, I think.
156: I've never been much of a dog owner, so I'm not sure of the significance of neutering a dog. People don't do that routinely? That is, one has one's cats spayed/neutered as a matter of routine.
You see male dog owners who don't want to neuter their dogs. Freud may have been wrong about everything else, but he sure nailed this.
The only defense (and it's a weak one) is that, while, per Norquist, neutering can settle an overaggressive dog, it can also make them fat and lazy.
My dog is too much of a spaz to be a good mouser, but he did succeed at running to ground one that had ended up in the bottom of his empty dogfood bin, and which I brought down to the park with him. I tipped the bin over in the middle of the basketball court, and Jasper caught it before it reached the sideline. He still doesn't know quite what to do next - he sort of tests it with his bared teeth, but doesn't chomp it down.
183: I wish someone in my family would gift me one of de la Vaissière's books on the Sogdians, or one of Benjamin's books on the Yuezhi. It's the thought that counts, not the money, but these books cost $80-$130 a pop. You do get free shipping, though.
I have a three year old human, so he doesn't try to eat the paper or laze triumphantly upon it. Instead he pulls the paper out before the printer is even done with it and then hands it to me, saying "Here! I'm helping you!"
This "bonus" thing is idiotic. Now the leftmost extreme of opinion is that AIG should receive $100,000,000,000 to do with what they want, but not give 0.1% of it to certain people. A lot of people actually think based on puellile instinct that they should actually not receive $100,000,000,000 at all.
I'm very tempted by the idea that we should let another major financial institution fail, just to let them know we mean business. Think of it as a socialist version of the Ladeen Doctrine.
"Every ten years or so, we need to pick up some crappy investment bank and throw it against the wall, just to show the financial markets that we mean business."
Our will is a specific will, not the general will, I think.
That's right: I don't think he has a military background.
192: They shouldn't have. The buyouts should have left everyone at AIG high and dry, staff and stockholders.
176
Andrew Cuomo says he will subpoena the names of executive bonus recipients.
Very interesting. At first, I wonder if they're being subpoenaed on suspicion of anything actually illegal rather than as just a populist witchhunt. But that only lasts for a second, and then I remember that we have so far to go before we're erring on the side of unkindness to the upper class that it's not even funny.
192: Be fair, now. More leftward views than that are floating around, including the view that AIG should have been bought out or nationalized by fiat. To me, one of those options sounds more intelligent than the direction we seem to be going, which might not be saying much. However, taking it as a fait accompli that we are giving AIG $100 billion with almost no accountability, I don't think it's unreasonable to require that the money not go to executive bonuses.
Populist witchhunts are good things. We need more of them. Democrats are such docile bodies.
192, "leftmost" s/b "populistmost"
Obama and Austin Goolsbee are acting all populist about this. It sounds totally phony.
193: because it worked so well with Lehman, you mean?
Shoulda let them fail, but guaranteed some portion of their creditors. Skip the bonus-getting middlemen.
My concern is that AIG does not turn into something akin to the "don't ask don't tell" of the Obama administration, derailing other initiative. I'm not inclined to think that AIG is central to truly getting the economy going (I may be wrong), but it certainly has become Grievance Central for the many, and therefore probably needs to be dismantled.
"can be cancelled more or less at will"
203: I am not sure that the "cross-default" aspects of this are being represented correctly, but if it is even close to what is described, this is one hell of a bit of greenmail engineering.
Populist witchhunts are good things. We need more of them.
At this point in American history, yes. They could only help.
Rob is right. The financiers are just looting the Treasury now. If necessary, Congress can amend bankruptcy law so that the government can, at its discretion, step in to operate bankrupt firms to avoid the negative consequences.
205: Per updates at TPM, it does look like the risk of "cross-default" is being overstated by some, but apparently it is part of what AIG is arguing.
My fondest hope right now is that this is the straw that breaks the anti-nationalization camel's back. Basically, this is exactly the sort of result you should expect from refusing to actually take over these companies, instead of the bogus propping up they've been doing.
Almost no one in finance, government, the media, or the political class has any wish for consequences, and every argument against doing so will be taken at face value, and contrarywise for the arguments for consequences.
208:Okay here is what I have been thinking about the bonuses, employees, and "cross-default" story.
Some guy at AIG FP sold Societe General a bag of magic beans, with a money back guarantee in writing with his name attached. Now that AIG guy quits, and SG has to count on the new management buying back that bag of beans a couple years down the road? Even written contracts are not totally enforceable, especially if New Management can get old management accused of fraud.
If I understand derivatives and bankruptcy, Societe General can say:"Right Now. No bankruptcy, no fraud trials, no nothing pay up right now."
Since nobody understood what that bag of beans was worth, if anything, the personal relationship (fiduciary responsibility?) was written into the loan agreement and a change of management, perhaps without a new agreement, might be consider a default. I sure would ask for my money of AIG FP quit en masse.
Or to put it another way, yeah, it was a massive fraud & Ponzi scheme involving trillions, but everyone, I mean everyone was involved and knew what was happening, and made sure they protected each other.
So I believe Liddy. Actually, since the bonuses have already been paid, Obama has known this stuff for months, and Geithner was working yo a way to slip it, and the other extortion payoffs to come, past without notice.
It's always been:"Pay us trillions or we will blow up the world." It has always been a credible threat.
The Democratic Party has never done anything good in its history if it wasn't pressured by outside groups and third party groups. Much of the Democratic establishment disliked FDR, but he was able to point to the barbarians at the gate and shut their filthy Democratic mouths for awhile. FDR's accomplishment was severely limited by his need to keep the cracker Democrats happy, and it wasn't just about segregation -- they were conservative about lots of stuff.
But the extra-party and third-party groups are weak, scattered, and mostly focused on things like animal rights and gonad politics (Nader's term). Because you see, we all have our issues, and for some people the collapse of the world economy is a big issue, and for others, vegetarian is an issue. There's no hierarchy -- it's personal taste and a la carte.
There's no one asking for what's needed, and the malefactors of great wealth are impregnable.
In a bankruptcy filing, the derivative contracts are first in line, but I don't think there's any way they could avoid the bankruptcy courts. Normally, you are supposed to have collateral set aside for your derivative contracts, but I doubt that even now AIG has enough collateral to cover all of their contracts.
I've never heard of a feral chicken
There are feral chickens on the island of Kauai.
Pigs are not that hard to litter train, but if you blow it there's no second chance. They'll pick a spot where they like to shit, and stick to that no matter what.
One of my relatives-by-marriage adopted a Vietnamese pot-bellied pig that had grown too large for the frat house where it had been raised. The pig had been trained to use the toilet in the frat house, so after it was re-homed to an outdoor pen, it invariably backed up to the water trough to shit. The new owners had to install a second water trough for it to drink out of.
Bob, the bag of beans that AIG FP sold SG was the likelihood of AIG's (as a whole) future solvency, which it turned out was closely tied to the bag of beans that SG and others sold AIG FP. It's pretty clear that both parties were complicit . A change of management has little to do with anything as far as these contracts are concerned (indeed, the idea that a simple change of management at a counterparty could void a CDS contract would probably cause more damage than AIG defaulting).
Is there a difference between a credit default swap and me taking out an insurance policy on Tina Turner's legs?
Tina Turner, with good reason, has insured her legs for millions of dollars. She makes regular payments to a company, and if her legs are disfigured, she gets a one time payout. Apparently, I could have done that, too. I could have agreed to make payments to AIG and in the event that Tina Turner's legs are disfigured, they would pay me a big one time payout.
How is this an investment (designed to get capitol to business who use it to provide goods and services) and not simply gambling (agreeing to make payments in the event of random future occurrences.)
I suppose this has been covered before, but the whole thing just strikes me as fucking criminal.
The difference is that the insurance policy is regulated.
Ooo, this morning, while walking back to my room from the shower, I saw one of my roommate's cats with a mouse. It was apparently alive but not moving, and the cat was sitting right in front of it and watching it. A week ago I probably would have dealt with it right away, but after all the comments here about how cats are hunters and wake humans up with dead animals and stuff, I figured the cat wasn't bothering the humans so I left him undisturbed.
However, when I went back that way 10 minutes later, neither of them had moved. Cat still sitting there staring, mouse still frozen. I couldn't leave it there all day, so I picked the mouse up by the tail and dropped him outside. He was still by the door when I left the house, but moving a little bit and not visibly injured.
Apparently the cat didn't even know what to do with it. Useless. Not coincidentally, their food dish was full.
220: Cats need movement to trigger the pounce response. I've seen something similar with a border collie who was a little too good at giving sheep "the eye", i.e. staring at them intently while in a pounce stance in such a way that the sheep freezes. Normally once the dog has gotten the errant sheep to stop, s/he then herds it back to where it's supposed to be, but for some dogs, if the sheep stays frozen, the dog can't really move on to the next step, so they're both stuck there.
I've also seen footage of a cheetah who chased a mother somekindofsmalldeer and didn't catch her but her only several hours-old fawn was left standing there. Cheetahs aren't actually good at killing something that isn't already winded from the chase (they clamp down on its throat and basically smother it), so it just sort of stood there looking at the fawn. The fawn would periodically start to try to lope away at which point the cheetah would reach out its paw and sweep the fawn of its legs. Then they'd both just resume sitting there since the cheetah wasn't receiving the right stimuli to dispatch the fawn.
221.2: Wow, cats really are evil. We're acclimated to the idea of housecats killing small animals for sport rather than food, and killing them slowly rather than quickly. But you say that even in the wild where they are hunting for food, cheetahs kill by getting their prey's heart rate up and then choking them? That's cold. What, are they too fastidious to get blood on their fur coats?
"How is this an investment (designed to get capitol to business who use it to provide goods and services) and not simply gambling (agreeing to make payments in the event of random future occurrences.)"
Well, it is simply gambling (to the extent that the CDS weren't hedges). But if you ask me that's not very different to a huge range of financial activity, from currency swaps to commodity futures to short selling (naked or otherwise). The idea that financial markets are primarily about channeling capital to the most productive productive investments is laughably naive. That's the social benefit, sure. But it's not what 90%+ of the activity is about.
Even Tina Turner is gambling by taking out insurance on herself. She's not allocating capital to those who will use it wisely, at least.
225: Is that an acronym for "read, the flaming Mongolian"?
Racist.
manul is a Mongolian word fyi, means the one who guards
i hate that people read my words as if i'm angry when in fact i usually write all in cold blood or even like jokingly
228: Calm down, read, there's no need to shout.
"Rub the furry manul"
The manul is native to Mongolia, actually.
i shouted jokingly and people don't understand
Why is a small cat named the one who guards?
i don't know, maybe perhaps it's very difficult to come close to them, very guarded like behaviour
i remember horror stories about manuls that they start eating their victims from their anus-rectum
have no idea whether it's true, or perhaps it was irvis(irbis), which is also a Mongolian word though attributed to Russian
232: Seriously, read, you need to get ahold of yourself. You're going to pop a vein in your forehead.
okay, i whispered it calmly and people don't understand
Stop taunting, Motch. She's explaining the felids of the steppe.
Now here's one that prefers the desert-like regions in Tibet.
It's not too late to buy the Manulomania calendar for only $17.74.
i'd love to explain more, but don't know much about them, better to refer to wikipedia perhaps
and have to go
239: Don't you think it would be better to spend even just 15 minutes talking to ned about steppes felids? Otherwise what happens might be on your conscience because of your selfish desire to go.
There are feral chickens on the island of Kauai.
IIRC chickens were a warm-weather bird.
221.2 - IIRC, Cheetah kill by asphyxiation by biting shut the windpipe. Leopards do it by clamping down over the mouth and nose, also leading to asphyxiation. Lions break the neck. If you are going to be killed by a big cat, go with the lion.
Big cats, lions especially, have something akin to cultural preferences for prey - the preference is passed down from mother to child and is robust over many generations. The man eating lions of Tsavo were anomalous in their preference for humans, but that's not surprising given that the rail line was being run along an ancient slave trading route, so it's quite likely that those lions had been eating people for many generations.
Best Beloved, let me tell you how the lions of Tsavo became man-eaters. In the high and far-off times the King of Lions had issued a ruling forbidding his people to eat humans, at the cost of being made into swipple rugs. The Lion of Tsavo was caught devouring a slave and was about to be made into rug when a tiny rock lizard scurried up to him and breathed these words into his ear: "Slaves aren't people, per the Most Ancient Law." The Lion of Tsavo, arguing pro se, said this to the King of Lions, and lo, the King of Lions set him free. But an evil reptile counselor of the next Lion King convinced him that the precedent was a limited one and applied only to Tsavo, and so it remains to this day."
243: I assumed a lion economist in Tsavo worked the math that demonstrated the profitably and that was that. "Externalities! Schmanalities!", he roared.
245: But the counselor of the Tsavo lions, Sally Kotimy, succeeded in getting the Tsavo precedent broadened so that all humans were fair game. For aren't humans all slaves who only sleep eight hours a day at the most?
I would sleep a lot longer, given the opportunity. Don't snack on me!
re: 223
Cheetahs are really small relative to their prey. They aren't going to be able to go with the sort of method that the lion or tiger favours.
Incidentally, did everyone see that thing about the pride of lions that's taken to hunting elephants?
Seriously? That sounds terribly implausible. Elephants are really, really, really big compared to a lion. It sounds like a pack of terriers taking to hunting cows.
248: I've seen it. Drought I think has thinned out the lions' food supply, so they've had to adapt and take on more challenging prey like elephants. They gang up on one and get the job done.
re: 248
Yeah, they've developed a technique for it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article658614.ece
The science blog where I came across it was pointing out that our views on lions has been badly coloured by the fact that it's the Serengeti lions that get filmed a lot. But lions live in lots of other habitats and function differently in those habitats.
The Chobe lions have apparently gotten into the habit of taking down elephants at night.
Wow. I wouldn't have thought it was possible.
Yeah, but when you think of it, they act cooperatively, each individual lion is pretty heavily 'armed' and they are working at night when, as cats, they have huge performance advantages over elephants.
I think that footage appears in an episode of Planet Earth.
re: 253
Yes, that Time article I linked is about the filming of an episode of Planet Earth.
253: It does.
Or so the linked article would have you believe.
I've heard about orcas attacking and killing blue whales, which would represent a similar size differential.
252: The moral of the story is: don't let your cats get too hungry, and be careful walking around your house at night.
The manul clearly evolved to gang up on woolly mammoths.
260 Home field advantage would likely be decisive.
262: neutral turf. Brackish bayou, say.
neutral turf
Dropped from a plane.
I discovered what the wild manuls guard, giving them their name. Rock crevices.
266: I'm very relieved to know that someone is guarding the rock crevices. What a relief!
266: fantastic video. Looks like a Superman housecat.
You know who hunts elephants? Pygmies. Fact. Drive in one sharp stick in the right place, get out of the way, and wait. Sneaking up to drive in the stick at close range is the whole job.
They then trade most of the meat to tall agriculturalists nearby.
264
262: neutral turf. Brackish bayou, say.
No such thing as naturally-occuring neutral turf. Water shallow enough for a lion to walk in is way too shallow for an orca to swim in.
Artificial neutral turf, though... make the water comfortably deep for the orca, and give the lion a scuba system, and weights just sufficient to let it walk on the ground but not hamper its movement...
In that case, the orca wins. The lion can't bite with a scuba mask on.
270: You'd have to similarly handicap the orca to really make it neutral. And the lion would still have its claws. I think this contest would be closer than you think.
Clearly, the physical contest can't be made fair, so you should have them debate.
272: I say a rap battle would be the best means of deciding.
I'm the O to the R to the C to the A
Land-dwelling mammals best get out my way
Lion thinks he's gonna step to me? No can do!
Mangy-maned motherfucker feel the wrath of Shamu.
Unfogged haters claim the concept is silly
But Mufasa's gettin' punked by Big Free Willy.
Perhaps the lion and the orca woud just become friends and maybe have sex.
Lions hate to here "Are you in yet?", though.
Although I think you should have worked the phrase "big pussy" in there somewhere.
275: "Daaayum!!!!!" s/b "Kick it, Vanilla Ice!"
Ahem.
It's Shamu vs Leo you can place your bets
Put your money on the cat cause that fish is all wet
Ain't gonna end up like Jonah, in the belly of a whale
Got my pride on my side, not about to fail
Now Willy may be free but he's gonna pay
Like a cranberry, he'll be turned to ocean spray
He's just an orca, I'm the real killer
I'm wild but I keep a steady hand on the tiller
I'm the top of the food chain he's
An endangered species
When I get through with his ass
He'll be less full of feces
Gonna rock his sea world
Blow a hole in his dome
With his tail between his flippers
Gonna send him back home
Where he'll blubber like a seal
Cause it's easy to see
I'm the king of the jungle
He's the chicken of the sea
If there was a problem yo I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it
I'm impressed. That white boy could totally pass for a rapping street lion.
The brackish swamp could be neutral territory for, say, a barracuda and a jaguarundi.
This thread is useless without audio.
Orca! Orca! Swam from Majorca!
Itty bitty kitty taste like mu shu pork-a.
Lion be lyin' 'bout the threat he pose
Cuz Leo be breathin' through a rubber hose
When he face me, land-based punk can't take me.
Says he'll be fightin' me to the death
But we'll see how long that pussy can hold his breath
At tremendous depths, when his lungs compress.
So step to me and I'll swallow your pride
Little bitch-ass lion's whole family inside
This orca belly, make my ambergris smelly,
So tell me, puddy tat, are you ready for this jelly?
Now dorsal fins in the air!
And wave 'em like you just don't care!
Um, can I see you in my office when you get a free moment?
Orcapostropher may have no boss, but he does have a superior. To wit:
You can call me Ishmael
But this won't be no fiction
I'll send your ass to the bottom
And maintain perfect diction
You sure ain't my friend but
I'll make you my chum
Spread you out upon the waters
And eat every last crumb
Start a feeding frenzy
Like a consultant from McKinsey
I'll manage your ass
But keep it cool like Fonzy
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
But you won't have no happy days
Like Bubba Blue
I'll prepare you
In a thousand ways
Don't need a harpoon
Greenpeace ain't gonna save you
Turn your ass into mukluks
And a boatload of lox you
Can nurse your two black eyes
And limp back to your pod
But I'll just haul you back for more
With my reel and rod
I'll chop off your fins
I'll slaughter your friends
I'll f&#k you up so bad
You'll have the bends
I don't need echolocation
To beat a cetacean
I'll put butter on you
Crack you open
like a crustacean
I'll turn you into sushi
And hang up your pelt
When I get through with you
you'll wish that I was back on the veldt
I see the whites of your eyes
Cause you're scared and surprised
Like a fish out of water
You can see your demise
So say your prayers
Better write your will quick
Cause for you it's The End, just like Moby, dick.
I do have to admit that the ambergris/are you ready for this jelly bit is pretty damn genius. Punk.
286: I... I... umm... OH YEAH!? YOUR MAMA WEARS A FLEA COLLAR!
288: Don't feel bad. I'm a native of Africa.
See, that's why I hate rap and punk. I was thinking of lovely Joni Mitchell songs about a tender love affair between two ferocious carnivores, a song showing how love conquers all and can erase the conventional difference between so-called "species" (Life is One!), but these two sociopathic motherfuckers have just given me loudmouth street crap.
290: We're not going to pull our pants up either, old man. Or get off your lawn.
Allow me, little brother:
See, Lion, you're no sealion.
Best run back to the land
Or your ass we'll be fryin'.
Like an episode of Planet Earth
you'll end up as our dinner.
You're way out of your element,
there'll only be one winner.
So keep your fur dry.
You made a nice try.
On land you stand for courage
but at sea you'll only cry.
Hakuna matata
won't cut it in the water,
the Circle of Life
means you'll only make us fatter.
So swallow your pride
or we'll swallow it for you,
Wave bye bye to the waves
or your ass will be fish food.
You won't wake up like you did
after Marlin and Jim
shot your ass with a dart
as you sat on a limb.
You'll be with other marlins
in the locker of Jones,
I think Davy's his name
He'll take care of your bones
So run while you can,
depart from the water
return to your old place
like Welcome Back, Kotter
Or else you'll be finished
Even the elephants won't remember
Who that cat in the trunks was
Who thought he could swim here.
Emerson is the very parent The Fresh Prince lamented.
He does just not understand, doesn't he?
Mark my words, kids, you motherfuckers are going to come to a bad end, and I'll just be laughing.
Best surf 'n turf rap battle ever.
Inuit rap. Just imagine they're singing about polar bears and narwhals, essear.
I don't need echolocation
To beat a cetacean
Oh my god. So awesome.
Orca! Orca! Swam from Majorca!
Itty bitty kitty taste like mu shu pork-a.
I also totally love this.
A killer whale finds love -- but only after he has learned not eat everything he sees.
A lion saves his life by submitting to the advances of a vicious sexual predator -- and gives thanks to the Lion God for the savagest carnivore's successful completion of Step One of Twelve Step Predator Rehab Program.
I'm sorry, but I just have to get these out of my head or I won't be able to sleep tonight. Gift or curse, it's so hard to tell!
You'd like me in your belly but
You'll likely end up belly up
I'll hunt you down like Ahab but
As you sink down I will stay up
I'll stun and subdue you
with my style so ill
Break out all your teeth
so you can only eat krill
With no teeth left you'll have to live just like a baleen
I'll throw you up against the wall like Michael Ledeen
And assuming I can find it I will bloody your nose
With my hindpaw I'll stomp on your vestigial toes
Wave my harpoon and shout out "Thar she blows!"
Sure whaling is illegal, but that's how I roll
I was born free and living free is what I do
I don't like your blowhole so I'll rip you one new
I'll be on you like a barnacle
You're no killer, you're comical
Those squeaks and squeals aren't musical
And so here's what I'll do to you
I'll beach you
let the birds pick your bones clean
But first I'll take your flippers
for my pinball machine
Then I'll beat you
get the replay and the high score
Then I'll leave you
let your carcass rot on the shore
Cause you're gonna have to pay
for all of your sins
I'll smoke your whole family
and put 'em in tins
With a voice stronger than the waves that crash on the shore
You'd better paddle back when the lion roars.
I love this rap superstar battle of the species.
I love it! I keep trying to single out a line for especial praise, but I keep finding one above or one below that's just as awesome. Vestigial toes/ Thar she blows! is perhaps among my favorites, though.
I am kinda proud of the vestigial toes line.
Sometimes it seems that the Unfoggetariat group mind inappropriately husbands its talent.
No offense to present company, of course.
308: You're right. The Unfoggedetariat group mind should be paying me for my work.
See what I mean?
PS. The hott sexxor. Via LGM.
303: Dude. I am not worthy. But I'll take it like a man so you can set up the knockout punch.
One two one two, is this thing on?
Hard to tell with all this jibber jabber blabber
From a rapper says he'll give my blubber trouble
On the double if I don't up and scatter
In a burst of bubbles but that sucker
Can't be backin' all the ducats
That his mouth be writin' checks for any more
So I'm ignorin' all the roarin' and rhyme-whorin'
'Cause it's boring, leaves me snoring
And what's more on the Serengeti I'll be ready
Bustin' beats like Ferlinghetti or Freddy Kreuger with a Luger
Better call on Doogie Howser, DVM to fix this flabby tabby
Cause this battle's gotten stabby and I'm Aslan-slayin'
From way back in the day.
And your DJ's a hyena. B/tch.
305: I love this rap superstar battle of the species.
So do I. My "Worst too" was merely intended to highlight that every rap superstar battle of the species is its own unique snowflake.
I GOT OVER THIRTY-SIX THOUSAND GODDAMNED DICKS.
BOYEEE.
I imagine that, after 312, Apo spit the mic out of his mouth and roared.
Then, being a male lion, he took a nap.
This is sublime. And is making me feel inordinately shitty about the incredibly long time it's taking me to write six scenes from a spec Chuck.
315: Cracka please. Apo's a stinkin' orca, not a noble lion.
317: whoops! Fur suit faux pas over here!
I thought I'd made this comment earlier, but apparently I did not. This rap battle reminds me very much of the Hiphopopotamus vs. Rhymenoceros.
314:
Yeah, you may have thirty thousand dicks
But your accounting's like AIG
It's all full of tricks
So you have thirty thousand alleles
It don't make no difference
When you're one of my meals
I swim through the dirt
Transform decay into earth
Two testes, two seminal vesicles
Millions of sperm trump thirty k testicles
Twisting, and twining,
I've fucked five times
While your mate's still finding
A dick from your cilia
So small she can't feeliya
You think you can rhyme
But I ain't got the time
For a fungus apologist
Now you tell me:
Who's the mic-ologist?
Late to the game, but couldn't help myself.
This thread is ten times better than the second season of Flight of the Conchords.
Here's a little ditty I like to call "Crank Dat Unfogged":
It's been a long time, I shouldn't have left you
without a good rhyme about the fall of that whale dude.
This dispute that we're having is no ordinary battle,
like wolves chasing cattle, or babies teething rattles,
or a little bitch pointing out a grammar "mistake"
or a Brahmin fratboy up against a Minnesota crank.
No this is far more serious
and though the competition's fierce
it's clear now who the winner is
it ain't the one with freaking fins
So with that little prelude done, now let me begin
I won't pause endlessly, I'll go right in
I'm not too shy to comment, I'm a stalker not a lurker
Don't ask if I can haz it I just take the damn cheezburger
Determined like a lawyer with a squamate mouth smell
and unlike Zack I don't need any saving by the bell
Don't ask for whom it tolls, whale, it's your death knell
Cause the result of your lyrical output? FAIL!
You'll try to slip away, escape from the fray
But this just ain't your day, your swimming is in vain
And you won't post about it later 'cause you'll only be a was
There will be nothing left of you, the reason is because
My lyrical powers are SuperKoranic
I'll remove part of your kidney and your stomach while I'm at it
you'll get no gift certificate, French Laundry? You're not fit for it
Instead I'll hang you on the line, and you will fold as I opine:
My lyrics are much finer than the ass of a professor
who teaches math to college offspring of the white oppressor.
They're so authoritative they'll make kids get off of your lawn.
And fatter than the world's second largest pecan
Like a hand-stretched penis, they're well crafted and artisanal
You're clearly outgunned by the talent in my arsenal.
They're purer than teofilo, before he fell, a while ago
They'll hit you like the calabat, you'll disappear like Weiner, Matt
Or Magic Johnson, or that guy called Tim by some
You'll be dissed worse than ogged over at Kevin Drum's
Praise be unto him, ogged that is
Too bad that he's no longer in the blogging biz
But let's get back on topic, to the matter at hand:
your destruction, it's delightful, perfectly goddamned.
I'd even call it m-fun, like couches off a building
I have a plan! To do something! It's give your ass a whupping
Like pdf23ds you'd best be paranoid
I'm coming down to get you and this loss you can't avoid
Even if you invoke the analogy ban
L/on:laws::failure:your plan
Like a baby turtle on the beach trying to dodge a seagull
You can try to run but there still won't be a sequel
I'll chase you past the edge of the American west
You say that you're a mammal? There's no hair on your chest.
I'm [Juggernaut Firm], more than the gayatollah
You're twisted and selfish, so stay out of Mongolia
Or the backseat of a car on a sunny day
That won't get you a medal, unless Di has her way
No matter what soup biscuit says, your mileage won't vary
I'll crush you like that fat man in front of the trolley
My words will stun you, strike you like a blunt instrument
like fellatios the blows I land on you will be infinite
You can try to reach and grasp for some low hanging fruit
But nothing will save you, all defenses are moot
You're clearly so new at this you need a fruit basket
When it's all over they'll throw flowers on your casket
So admit that you're defeated, you have no choice
Like that dog at RCA you hear your master's voice.
And in case you didn't hear me I'll repeat it again
Like "Billie Jean" spinning in the flophouse den.
If you still don't get it I'll say "Great, start 'em young"
Your innocence is touching but your learning ain't done.
If that doesn't work, I'll shout out "RTFA!"
I don't have time or patience to explain it all today.
This isn't Standpipe's blog, and the only joke here
is your lyrics, they're much lamer than James B. Shearer
They're slack like a physician of Canadian provenance
Your name and "rap" together cause cognitive dissonance
If you think you can beat me, then you're crazier than McManus is
My style will grow upon you, like fungus in your sinuses.
So give it up, admit defeat, there's nothing you can barter
Your rhymes are weaker than a piece by Ms. Meagan McArdle
If you'd like to surrender, it must be unconditional
biscuits are not wanted, they don't get the approval seal.
If you try to joke my reaction will be humorless
Just like Dr. Bitch, and all those scary feminists.
And if you try to front you'll look like dsquared's favorite noun
It's finally time to end this 'cause you're done, f*&k you clown!
L/on
[If you didn't get a shout out, it's only cause time's maxed out]
That's why they call him king of the beats.
Yeah, yeah, always trying to sneak in late to get the last word.
"Artisanal" doesn't rhyme with "Arsenal".
Rhyming "McManus is" with "sinuses" is a stroke of genius. Damn, where's Drymala when you need him?
332: Crap. I forgot about Drymala. He wasn't even one of the many many people on the "to add" list that didn't get added.
I also have very good graffiti skillz, in case anyone is interested in inviting me into their gang.
Oh, man.
like fellatios the blows I land on you will be infinite
FTW.
I also have very good graffiti skillz
If you can do something brilliant with the graffitoed "PUKE" on the brick wall near my bookshop, I'd be grateful. I'm tired of looking at it.
339: Why would I want to cover up my own work?
340: Because someone asked you to put pretty flowering vines all around it instead! You know, maybe I should just do this myself.
Oh I know you didn't just say that you're planning to deface my art.
I'm gonna decorate it, that's all. I don't why this didn't occur to me before, although the authorities would probably not approve, as they'd rather erase it altogether. (It's not art, by the way; it's just block-lettered, all caps.)
Do you know whose wall it is? Hiring a local graffiti artist to paint something pretty usually seems to get respected, at least in my neighborhood. If you could contact the building owner and ask if you could have a mural put up, that might solve it.
Oh I know you didn't just call my art "not art".
i promise to consult always urban dictionary before opening my mouth, but that incident was totally worth it
to be mentioned in the great poem! i'm very very flattered, thanks
Hiring a local graffiti artist
Fine. Outsource your damn project to somebody local. Your loss.
I also have very good graffiti skillz
This is true.
in case anyone is interested in inviting me into their gang
347: Kinda like how LL Cool J was so flattered when Kool Moe Dee made references to him?
344: Yeah, I'm thinking twice about this. It's on the back side of a garage; there are adjoining buildings rented to businesses (first floor), apartments on the upper floors - it's in the back of these, where people park. There's a building holding weekly AA meetings across from it, and the meetees hang out during coffee/smoke breaks right there next to the graffiti.
I suspect they'd all prefer that it be simply erased. It's been there for a year. Maybe I should call the local neighborhood association and see if they have a budget for that.
351: Ladies Love Cool Socks In It?
Also, 346 gets it right.
351: Ladies Love Cool Socks In It?
Indeed.
Why is unfogged at its best only in verse?
PS: MC M/lls, meet a lyrical mastermind.
356: We've met. Like in person and everything. And she is indeed a lyrical mastermind.
But that said, at the end of the day, the magic eight ball doesn't lie. It just goes to show. Literally.
It's hard to argue with that kind of evidence. But, in your opinion as a poet of a certain stature, can you tell me if she's hot?
359: Sorry, but I am sworn to secrecy.
I can reveal that her rosy toes are definitely all that.