Re: DC Meet-Up? A Planning Thread

1

I too will be in DC on April 3.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 8:31 PM
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I won't!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:00 PM
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I will actually be in DC for some or all of May (to be determined), but am certain of being around for April. April 3 is fine with me.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:20 PM
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2: Not to despair, Sifu; Mutombo's Houston Rockets are on a West Coast swing that week.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:25 PM
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I'll be moving there on the 25th of March. So I'll be around after that.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:26 PM
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4: yes, but with the drought, and the budget... is this the time to try and sex Mutombo?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:27 PM
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I'm on a West Coast swing that week too. Does 4 mean I should look for opportunities to sex Mutombo?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:27 PM
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Oh, right, drought. Oh well. Some other time.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:29 PM
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I'd love to be in on this, but my constraints are a bit divaish. I will leave DC, not to return (foreseeably),* on April 9th. I'll also be out of town the Friday through Sunday before that, possibly back Sunday afternoon.

*Going to India on a 3-month internship preceding grad school.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:33 PM
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8: well, maybe it would be just the kind of counter-cyclical stimulus we need. Sex Mutombo... for Keynes!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:34 PM
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To be clearer, the 3rd is one of the nights I'm out of town - though people only visiting should of course get priority.

PGD, since I imagine you'll be reading this thread: check your email, please.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:36 PM
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counter-cyclical stimulus

That's my move!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 9:53 PM
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Minivet and I seem to be leading equivalent but opposite lives.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:00 PM
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Count me in. April 3 is fine, or 4.

Looking up thread it occurs to me that it might be a good idea to invite some of the gals.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:03 PM
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We should have a West Coast meetup when Emerson returns to Portland. Sifu could come up, and he and John could have a get-acquainted session, maybe with a Q&A.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:18 PM
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I've met Emerson. We got along fine, as far as I know. We bonded over not wanting to talk to McMegan. Then I went and talked to her.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:20 PM
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Also Portland's really far away, and I don't want to answer questions. And Mutombo will be here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:20 PM
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Well, hell, for a second there I thought Jesus might be in DC, in which case I was going to declare that I was in, for sure.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:24 PM
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Aw, you're sweet. You can come out to Portland anytime, you know, pars.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:25 PM
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I do not dislike Sifu at all, based on our face-to-face, but there's a great gulf between us on everything political and a bunch of other things too, I think.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:31 PM
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but there's a great gulf between us on everything political and a bunch of other things too, I think

I do not think this is as true as Emerson thinks, which may be paradoxical, come to think of it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:33 PM
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It's a giant gulf of crotchetiness.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:35 PM
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19: I'll keep that in mind.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:35 PM
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We bonded over not wanting to talk to McMegan. Then I went and talked to her.

I like to think that I had a hand in this.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:38 PM
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22 to 1.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 10:45 PM
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I'm in for April 3rd too.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:00 PM
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I should note that at present I'm only planning on being in DC for a few hours on April 3, but I could certainly extend that a bit.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:06 PM
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I am very interested but I am traveling right now with limited Internet! Hard to weigh in! No calendar!


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:16 PM
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I'm counting on the more actually-familiar-with-DC types to suggest locations. Unless, of course, everyone wants to drive two hours in a southwesterly direction.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:17 PM
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Meetup at will's in Richmond!

BTW, April 3rd is supposed to be just about the peak for the cherry blossoms in DC. The festival runs from 28 March through 12 April.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:23 PM
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I'll volunteer my place near the Capitol if people want to have it in a private place, and there are, say 10-12 or fewer attendees. (And the Flophouse people for some reason don't step forward).

If people came in on Tuesday-Thursday before there could be an Unfogged lobby day at the capitol. I could see that being pretty funny.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:26 PM
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Subsidies for cock-jokes and German puns! Stimulus!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-15-09 11:35 PM
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33

Montreal. August.

Or have it in the UK! The tea is better.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:48 AM
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I'd be up for Montreal in August. I'm jealous. Anyone still in Boston interested in getting together sometime?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:41 AM
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i'm in! shouldn't be a problem to find a suitable bar to hold us all.


Posted by: catherine | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:48 AM
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I'm in. And this time I won't need to rent a hotel room - sorry, Pause Endlessly!

In fact, I'm in Arlington and someone is welcome to crash on my couch if they need to. Fair warning, though: I live in a house with three other guys, and we live down to the stereotype. And more seriously, we have cats.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:04 AM
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We will be out of town April 3 through 12.

April 25th works best for us.

Or, we can have in in Richmond April 18th. I'll let you touch my monkeys.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:13 AM
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I would be game for a Portland meetup in the fall. We could drink Jesus wine.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:15 AM
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Or have it in the UK! The tea is better.

Yes, this.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:23 AM
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40

Rah and I will either get to DC on Thursday or Friday, depending on whether we decide to spend Thursday night in Richmond to see some friends. Friday afternoon we're booked up but we should be free Friday evening for a bar or a party or something unless Rah identifies a performance he wants to see on Friday night.

And yes, that is supposed to be peak weekend for the cherry blossoms, which is part of why we're going to be there: Saturday we're going to the Japanese street festival in addition to doing other touristy stuff.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:28 AM
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depending on whether we decide to spend Thursday night in Richmond to see some friends.

Is it us??? You are visiting us? Sweet.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:39 AM
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B-b-but I'm leaving D.C. on the 3rd. (I arrive March 24.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:57 AM
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We can do it on March 28th.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:11 AM
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43: Hey, watch it bub!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:13 AM
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45

I was going to invite her to Richmond to help me plant some seeds.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:15 AM
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46

I endorse any use of the appellation "bub". And its female equivalent, "toots".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:17 AM
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45: My advice is to just spill them on the ground.

46: Actually, I was using "bub" as a verb in that sentence.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:21 AM
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The 2nd or sometime in the weekend starting Friday the 27th would accommodate both Sir Kraab and myself, then.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:26 AM
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41: It isn't you! But we love you anyway.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:30 AM
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49:

We have recently been informed that we are failing my kids by not giving them gay godparents. Apparently, gay couples are bombarded with godparent requests by liberal straight parents. Is this true? Is it too late for my kids (17 and 13)?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:46 AM
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Crap! It's the Smapbot of Sorrow!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:55 AM
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50: We've never been asked to be anyone's godparents, but the concept of godparents is pretty uncommon in the South, at least in my experience. No one did that where I grew up and I had to ask what they were when I saw them pop up in fairy tales as a kid.

Also, neither of us are really eager to join the line of succession for parenthood so I doubt anyone would ask us anyway. I mean, I"m fine with other people's kids, I just don't want to inherit any of them or have any of my own.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:06 AM
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On the 27th I'm going to see the Kodo Drummers at Constitution Hall, but other than that I can meet anybody anywhere.

And for shows to see, I will now plug the play my girlfriend is in, Ion, at the Shakespeare Theatre. I'd link to reviews, but press night was just last night and I don't think there are any yet.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:18 AM
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the concept of godparents is pretty uncommon in the South

My experience as well. However, Roberta and I are on the hook for raising one more child if our friends P&M both die. Which is like being godparents, but with the promise that we *won't* raise their daughter Christian.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:22 AM
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And for shows to see, I will now plug the play my fact that I have a girlfriend is in, Ion, at the Shakespeare Theatre.

(fedward, I don't even remember if you're one of the people who's lamented the sad state of the dating pool, but I thought I'd better mock you just in case.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:27 AM
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53: Awesome! I just emailed Rah the link to make sure he'd see it, as he's in charge of choosing any performances we might see.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:29 AM
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the concept of godparents is pretty uncommon in the South

Isn't this just because Catholics are pretty uncommon in the South? At least it's my impression that most non-Anglican Protestant churches don't have godparents.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:30 AM
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I thought 100% of Catholics and 0% of other people had godparents. Like confirmation.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:32 AM
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not giving them gay godparents

Fairy godparents, will. Though your confusion is understandable.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:33 AM
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0% of other people had godparents

Apparently not.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:35 AM
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50
Apparently, gay couples are bombarded with godparent requests by liberal straight parents.

Argh, I hope you're exagerrating or oversimplifying for comic effect. I mean, I'm sure some such people exist, but if it's actually enough for a bombardment, that makes SWPL look like... I don't know, NWA or something.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:36 AM
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that makes SWPL look like... I don't know, NWA or something.

SWPL's first album, Straight Outta Crate and Barrel, was pretty tight.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:40 AM
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I grew up in the South and have godparents, but we're carpetbaggers; our family religiosity is quite low, actually, with Congregationalist/Unitarian and Jewish heritage mixed, so I imagine it was just a tradition.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:48 AM
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Best tracks:
Call Tha Police
If it Ain't KitchenAid


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:49 AM
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64: you left out "Express Yourself".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:51 AM
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66

65: Don't you mean "American Express Yourself"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:53 AM
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Eh, that works, I just thought it was nice that it could sound somewhat SWPL with no change at all. (Plz redirect this comment to Standpipe's other blog.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:57 AM
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68

so wait, what date are we looking at here?


Posted by: catherine | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:59 AM
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67: I hear you. But just leaving it as it is doesn't allow me to, um, express myself.

But I'm not particularly pleased with 66.

Other contenders:
"Espresso Yourself"
"Express Yourself, Just Not 2 Loudly"
"Repress Yourself"
"Invest Your Wealth"

Not that I'm like, obsessing over this or anything. Oh no.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:02 AM
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Geez, catherine, we're trying to work here. Stop bothering us with on-topic stuff.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:03 AM
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71

I grew up in the South and have godparents, but we're carpetbaggers; our family religiosity is quite low, actually, with Congregationalist/Unitarian and Jewish heritage mixed, so I imagine it was just a tradition.

We have the same exact pedigree. Except I don't have godparents.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:09 AM
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Except I don't have godparents.

That you know of.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:10 AM
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71: Poor heebie. It must have been tough to grow up a godorphan.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:11 AM
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It must have been tough to grow up a godorphan.

We call ourselves Unitarians.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:12 AM
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"Godpapa was a rolling stone . . . ."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:12 AM
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Except I don't have godparents.

Or so the Unitarians would have you believe.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:13 AM
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65: Don't you mean "American Express Yourself"?

Express Your Breastmilk

Sexist.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:13 AM
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That you know of.

True godplayas have godspring all over the place that they don't pay godsupport for, or even know they exist, unless they get hauled to Jerry Springer Church for a Godpaternity test.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:14 AM
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I had godparents when I was a child, but then one day I came home and they were gone. Apparently they had been sent to live on a nice farm with lots of fresh air and room to run around.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:14 AM
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80

There's a nice symmetry that M/tch pwned me in 75 while I was pwning him in 74.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:15 AM
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81

godorphan

Oooh, so close to being a googlorphan.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:16 AM
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82

Are you suggesting that our friends are lying to us in order to become my kids godparents? Drats.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:17 AM
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83

82: Such covert recruitment of children is, of course, the cornerstone of The Gay Agenda™.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:19 AM
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84

"Impress Yourself"
"Supress Your Veldt"


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:20 AM
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85

so wait, what date are we looking at here?

It seems April 3rd has the votes right now. I'm getting a hazy number on headcount, though.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:24 AM
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55 - Yes, but only in past tense. The difficulty of dating outranks the weather as a safe conversational topic in DC (if you bring up the weather, you risk exposing your carpetbagger status because the current weather never compares with the weather that happened before you moved here).


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:25 AM
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83: Next after that on the list is becoming godparents to box turtles.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:26 AM
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Given the many votes for April 3, I assume something earlier with me and Sir Kraab would be in addition to, not instead of. Anyone else interested in such?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:26 AM
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Nice Catholic girl that I am, I do have godparents (my oldest brother and one of my cousins). CA the Anglican does, too. But it seems that here in NYC there are a whole lot of folks with godchildren/godparents who are Jewish or Unitarian or no-name Protestant.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:27 AM
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PS to Fedward: Hooray for Euripides in all of his forms!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:28 AM
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85: April 3 works for me.

88: I'm flexible enough to accommodate an earlier shindig as well.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:32 AM
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Woo! March meetup! Any night except April 1 will work for me. Do we need to schedule around the NCAA tournament? I don't care about it, but others might.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:41 AM
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M/tch, are you saying that my kids are box turtles??!?!?


I am interested in an earlier meet up.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:42 AM
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(I'll grant you that April 1 is not, strictly speaking, in March.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:42 AM
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95

I don't care about it

Communist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:43 AM
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You know, some of us live in DC, and could even be consulted about planning this.

I think April might be bad for the Flophouse but we could always rent out a bar.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:45 AM
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71: OK, I was wrong: my pedigree is not heebie-geebie-compliant. My Christian side of the family is not Congregational/Unitarian but actually Episcopalian, so it makes more sense that they'd do godparents if that's also a Catholic thing. (Though I know I have some ancestors who switched from Cong to Unitarian in the 18th century.)

(I'm a Viet Congregationalist!)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:57 AM
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98

Minivet Don't Surf!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:04 AM
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96: What, a front page post isn't enough for you? You want a monogrammed invitation?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:04 AM
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100

Don't forget "Straight outta Crate and Barrel (extended Stand mixer)"


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:05 AM
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101

Their next album, "Fear of a Gap Planet", wasn't too bad either.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:07 AM
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102

101 reminds me of another famous artist from the swp hop genre: Old Navy Bastard.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:12 AM
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103

Ah yes, I remember the hit video for their unexpected crossover cover of "Bananaphone."


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:19 AM
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104

103: Wasn't that by Banana Republic Enemy?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:20 AM
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Stand Mix-a-Lot's "Baby's Got Track (Lighting)" always gets the party started.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:21 AM
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99: "monogrammed" s/b "engraved"


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:23 AM
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I want a stereogrammed invitation.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:24 AM
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108

I would got to Portland.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:25 AM
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109

Chico's comin' (hide your heart girl)


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:25 AM
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104: No, you're thinking of "MMMGap."


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:26 AM
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108: w-lfs-n needs to be sicced on nosflow.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:27 AM
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112

I want a stereogrammed invitation.

You have to lick the stamp to get that effect.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:28 AM
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113

I knew I made a mistake there.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:29 AM
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114

113: Um, nice catch?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:33 AM
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115

I always liked that early all female group, Salt And Pepper.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:34 AM
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96: I was figuring this event would be more of a slapdash, in-a-bar type of thing, below the level of full-on flophousery. But bar suggestions and your attendance would be great.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:36 AM
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115: Full name was actually "Artisinal Sea Salt and Cracked Black Tellicherry Pepper".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:40 AM
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118

"Artisanal", wasn't it?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:41 AM
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119

Later on there was that rhythmless blues group "Three Anthonys!" that had a couple of hits.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:45 AM
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118: You're one to talk.

But they intentionally misspelled it to appear more "avenue".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:46 AM
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I've made mistakes. I admit that. And I'm not going glibly to suggest that they're all in my past, that I'm through with that part of my life—no. I'm all too aware that I could start making mistakes again, simple as anything. I've already corrected a few in typing this very comment. But I have changed, and one of the ways I've changed is that I'm now more sensitive to the mistakes I make—and concomitant with that sensitivity is another, not to be cleft from it, regarding the mistakes of others. These aren't really even different sensitivities, except insofar as the road up is different from the road down. Part and parcel of my reform of myself is my critique of others. So there's justice in your reproach, "you're one to talk". And yet and the end of the day, the sentence can as justly be read literally: I am one to talk, precisely because of my mistake-riddled history.

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to blather on. I apologize for the intrusion.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:51 AM
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116: Who lives in the Flophouse these days? I think Becks does, but she's only commented once in this thread, and briefly. I ask because if she's the only one speaking up at the moment, we really shouldn't plan on doing something there, now should we.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:52 AM
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And yet and the end of the day

I am unfamiliar with this phrase, good nosflow. What means?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:54 AM
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I ask because if she's the only one speaking up at the moment, we really shouldn't plan on doing something there, now should we.

Actually, we should.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:54 AM
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125

It means I didn't get enough sleep.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:01 PM
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126

Armhamsher lives there.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:02 PM
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127

People totally ignoring the possibility in 31 is making me feel very unpopular.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:03 PM
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I noticed, pgd. But I won't be there.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:05 PM
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126: If you call that "living".

127: It's because you're selfish and twisted, PGD.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:05 PM
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128: And being noticed by nosflow hardly counts in disproving unpopularity.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:06 PM
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126: Ah, right. Duh.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:07 PM
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Your animus towards me seems to have been acting up lately, M/tch. Is Sir K. out of town?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:08 PM
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Apostropher's stereogrammed invitation (NSFW, BSIYCSTT)


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:10 PM
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133 was me, as was 32, PGD. Not ignored, after all.


Posted by: Turgid Jacoabian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:11 PM
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Bypassing the traditional party power structures in Washington, I've taken this party straight to the people. Having second thoughts about the wisdom of this move, I now worry for the safety of my as-yet unsmashed arms.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:11 PM
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132: You are mistaken, nosflow. W-lfs-n is the only person at Unfogged I bear any animus towards. I find you delightful and am only teasing you because you are a noob. I'm afraid it's a necessary ritual before you are offered a fruit basket.

You do want to earn your fruit basket, don't you?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:15 PM
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Desperately. I'll do anything.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:17 PM
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137: Excellent! I want you to kill ben w-lfs-n.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:19 PM
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This will be worse than Catnarok.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:28 PM
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W-lfs-n has had one of those controversial new identity transplants recently. You wouldn't recognize him. He won't talk to you any more unless you're a hott chick who wants him bad.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:30 PM
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who wants him bad.

But w-lfs-n doesn't come any other way.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:33 PM
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According to people who would know, w-lfs-n comes every which way.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:34 PM
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Like a yard sprinkler.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:35 PM
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The link in 133 actually is a stereogram, just in case you saw the url and declined. It's very schematic, which makes it less--and more--horrifying.


Posted by: Turgid Jacoabian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:37 PM
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I would got to Portland.

Give me enough notice and I can arrange for distillery tours. Incidentally, Steve McCarthy (the Clear Creek guy) is posting at the NYT's alcohol blog (the one where teetotalers show up all the time to complain about people writing about alcohol), and his latest is mostly about his Doug fir eau de vie.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:38 PM
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96, 127: Oy, what makes these D.C. people such whiners?

You know, some of us live in DC, and could even be consulted about planning this.

As do catherine, fedward, PGD, togolosh, eb, Minivet and I'm probably forgetting someone. So quit your caterwauling and suggest a plan.

People totally ignoring the possibility in 31 is making me feel very unpopular.

Will you be serving something with a bechamel sauce? Will you be wearing a smoking jacket and/or a peignoir? You can hardly expect us to make a decision without complete information.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:40 PM
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his latest is mostly about his Doug fir eau de vie.

I'd love to have a bottle of this, in case anyone wasn't sure what to buy for me.

Have you had it, McQueen? Or anyone else here? How is it?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:44 PM
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At Soma Chocolatier in Toronto, we had a Douglas Fir truffle. It could best be described as tasting the way a Christmas tree smells. I'm sure an eau de vie would have similar effect.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:49 PM
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That sounds - and I in no way wish to impugn the sensibilities of anyone who might enjoy it - completely fucking nasty.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:50 PM
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tasting the way a Christmas tree smells

Hmm. That's how I describe gin.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:51 PM
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Like a yard sprinkler.

Of all the mental images to now have stuck in my head...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:52 PM
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146.last: I suspect, but don't know, that PGD's place is well-appointed. He's a wine snob, you know. I bet you could get him to wear a smoking jacket as well as a peignoir! But I won't be there, so I'm one to talk.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:53 PM
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149: Since you come from a foreign culture, I'm going to assume that by "completely fucking nasty" you merely mean "we have a simple disagreement in tastes".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:53 PM
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It's delish, fresh and pleasantly bitter. I tasted some of his first batch long ago—he mentions in the post that he spent some 15 years figuring out how to make it—and it was frighteningly neon-green and Pine-Solish. The current version is a testament to perseverance.

On preview, no eau for McManlyPants.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:55 PM
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151: Better a mental image stuck *in* your head than-- Oh, never mind.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:56 PM
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On preview, no eau for McManlyPants.

Menos burros, mas helotes.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:57 PM
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I recently bought a small bottle of Clear Creek's Calvadosalike and it's really really great.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 12:59 PM
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How about Tunnicliff's Tavern near Eastern Market?


Posted by: Frostbite | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:10 PM
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127 - I'll gladly PAAAAAR-TAY! at your pad, PGD. Can I wear my hat indoors?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:11 PM
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159: You can wear your hat.

Only your hat though.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:13 PM
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160: I believe the correct phrasing is, "You can leave your hat on."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:14 PM
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And if W-lfs-n is coming, you'll *definitely* want to leave your hat on.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:22 PM
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162: Umbrellas are also recommended.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:24 PM
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154: I have had a bunch of the Reisetbauer eaux de vie (carrot, rowanberry, etc.) but I have never had Douglas fir. Hmm.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:31 PM
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Unless otherwise noted, I assume people are talking about the April 3 meet-up.

Who's in for the earlier meet-up besides me, Minivet, and togolosh? Which night is best for y'all?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:39 PM
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I went to school with Steve McCarthy the booze guy. He was very distinctly non-Reedy-ish and made no apologies for that.

Retsina tasted like it was brewed from 2x4s. The old fashioned wooden kind, not the newfangled metal kind. (Anyone know the history of metal studs, or the kind of metal? They look sort of galvanized from a distance but I've never wored with them.)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:42 PM
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Kraab is ignoring me.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:42 PM
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Retsina tasted like it was brewed from 2x4s.

I had retsina explained to me once as follows: "See, the Greeks put pine tar in their wine so the Turks wouldn't drink it. Then the Turks left, but the Greeks decided they liked it that way and kept doing it."

I have no idea if this is historically accurate.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:44 PM
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163: Oh good. Now I have a dumb song stuck in my head right along with that mental image.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:46 PM
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168: They figured that if they kept doing it, no one would ever conquer them again.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:48 PM
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166.1: And now he's a trustee. Go figure.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:49 PM
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169: "It's Raining ben!"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:50 PM
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Can I wear my hat indoors?

no, I don't think so, at least if you're a man. Let's think about the possible range of hats here. Baseball cap? Please. Fedora? Probably an unfortunate fashion choice in the first place. Stocking cap? No one else can relax if you're trying to look like a mugger. Giant Ignatius Reilly-type hat with ear flaps? Leads to disturbing speculation about your personal grooming habits. Lincolnesque top hat? May accidentally break an overhead bulb. It's hard for me to think of a really acceptable hat.

But if you're a woman there would be a greater range of cute and therefore acceptable hats.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:51 PM
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167: You know what they say: where there's a will, there's a "go away".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:51 PM
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It's hard for me to think of a really acceptable hat.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:52 PM
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The ladies should all wear those ancient hats with the lace and artifical flowers.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:53 PM
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165: As for a time and place, I'm super-duper flexible as long as it's not going to interfere with regular work hours. I'm not exactly a social butterfly, so choosing a place is probably better left to someone who has actually been to a social establishment in the last two years.

In a pinch, I suggest Zed's Ethiopian Restaurant, but that's because it's pretty much the only place I have direct experience with that's likely to fit the bill. Plus, you get to eat with your hands. Also there are bars within walking distance if that seems like a good idea.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:54 PM
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174 was mean and in no way expresses my true feelings for will.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:54 PM
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It's hard for me to think of a really acceptable hat.

For nosflow, perhaps a jimmy hat.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:55 PM
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That hat is superogatory, apo.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:58 PM
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173: You're breaking my heart, PGD. Fortunately my hat is not one of the ones explicitly deprecated, so I hold out a sliver of hope.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:58 PM
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172: Heh. No, that "Umbrella" song. "It's Raining Ben," however, is a welcome replacement.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:58 PM
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Musically.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:59 PM
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121: I am delighted to hear the story of your error-policing ways. Does this mean I can expect to see more of my spelling corrected, or less?


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 1:59 PM
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167: I thought you were kidding, will. You're really coming up from Richmond?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:00 PM
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If I cannot convince you guys to come to Richmond, we might drive up.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:01 PM
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I am similarly flexible to togolosh wrt a time and place, except that I don't get off work until 6, and the place should be Metro-accessible. I am also unhelpful on places.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:01 PM
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184: It's w-lfs-n you have to worry about, not nosflow. And I'm confident that nosflow will soon earn his fruit basket by ridding us of that meddlesome w-lfs-n.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:02 PM
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That hat is superogatory, apo.

Or supererogatory, even.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:02 PM
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I guess this is generational. There's a whole range of knit hats to be worn indoors as part of one's clothing. I don't get it-- but this guy is an example, generation no excuse. For extra fun, requiring either one of these hats OR an ironed shirt for menfolk, and one of suitably paired fashion antonyms for the women as well should help put all at ease.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:04 PM
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this guy is an example

That guy is not invited.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:05 PM
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173, 181: PGD, togolosh has recently admitted to being a perpetual wearer-of-his-hat. I'm not finding the thread, but it sounded like a kind of squashed on your head kind of hat (which reminded me of my dad's old golf hat, actually).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:07 PM
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166: they are frequently galvanized steel. At least the ones I've dealt with sure seemd to be.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:08 PM
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What's the consensus on Smokey Bear hats?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:09 PM
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194: Only you . . .


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:12 PM
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I am probably up for a PDX meetup in June, July, Sept., or Oct., maybe in Aug. Hopefully outside, but in a place where we can drink (not most parks, alas).


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:13 PM
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teofilo, you would look just fine in a Smokey the Bear hat.

I am one of those people who thinks all hats must be removed indoors excepting some very special circumstances. Rah is of the opinion that it's time to let that rule go. When I see men wearing hats inside, though, I want not just to tell them to do otherwise; I want to walk up and bat the hats off their heads with my hand.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:15 PM
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Galvanized would be toxic if brewed into wine. You only need so much zinc.

Seeing my first galvanized 2x4 triggered one of my first realizations that the world had passed me by, around 1990-1995 I think. They're just wrong.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:16 PM
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Retsina is a great solution to mediocre white wine, by the way, much better than "sangria" which is Welch's fruit medley+plonk unless prepared by a trusted friend. Retsina can be disgusting, but IME is pretty good in restaurants run by actual Greeks.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:16 PM
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Retsina probably kills parasites too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:17 PM
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Concrete proposal; feel free to amend or counter: Friday, March 27th. Drinks @ 7 @ 'smasher's favorite (still?) bar which may or may not be called The Tavern and which is on U St., possibly between 9th & 10th. Very close to the U St. metro in any case. Sustenance available at the bar or at Zed's. (I can't get good Ethiopian in Austin, so I'm always game.)

PGD, I don't know if you were offering for April 3rd or (and) the earlier date.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:17 PM
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teofilo, you would look just fine in a Smokey the Bear hat.

Good to hear.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:19 PM
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I want to walk up and bat the hats off their heads with my hand

See, that never occurs to me (despite not being a wearer of hats), but I *do* have that urge any time I see somebody yammering into a cell phone pressed to the side of their head.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:19 PM
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203: But apo, that's where they're supposed to press it! That is where their ear and mouth are, after all.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:20 PM
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197: I want to walk up and bat the hats off their heads with my hand.

Dude, I think togolosh is coming to the DC meetup, so you're going to have to work this one out. He's from South Africa or something, I think, if that helps.



Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:21 PM
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When I see men wearing hats inside, though, I want not just to tell them to do otherwise; I want to walk up and bat the hats off their heads with my hand.

Call him Ishmael.

it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off

Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:21 PM
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205: Racist.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:21 PM
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204: I have an idea for an alternate pressing place.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:23 PM
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Ditto to 177.1. Actually, I could recommend some places to meet up - yay me for getting out now and then - but I'm more familiar with Arlington than with DC itself, so it doesn't sound like what we're looking for. I haven't followed the link in 177.2, but the description of the place sounds good.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:24 PM
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There hasn't been a whole thread at Unfogged dedicated to taking hats off indoors for at least a month. So we're probably overdue.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:25 PM
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We've discussed retsina before. To sum up: there is delicious retsina, just as there is delicious feta. Both take some trouble to find.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:29 PM
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209 cross-posted with 201. 201 sounds good to me. But my schedule is open, so don't let me overrule anyone who will only be in town for a limited time. I'm not familiar with either Zed's or The Tavern, which is a plus.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:36 PM
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I second 201, pending confirmation of the bar, which I can't find offhand. Zed's seems to be in Georgetown? But Dukem is nearby and seems to be spoken highly of.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:38 PM
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187: Metro access kills the Zed's idea, since it's in Georgetown and those assholes don't have a Metro stop. Dupont Circle does have a metro stop, and is close to many establishments suitable for meeting up. I don't know any of them, but there are people reading this who do.

Work related interruptions have let the thread evolve, so I'll endorse 201. I don't know the place, but Google tells me there's a Solly's U st Tavern at 11th and U - is that it?

192: Correct(ish). Truth be told, the hat is 5% fashion statement (specifically "fuck you, fashionistas!") and 95% security blanket.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:39 PM
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214.last: 95% security blanket

Yep. Which makes me smile.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:45 PM
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"fuck you, fashionistas!"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:46 PM
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216: It's the only proper attire for a sausage party.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:48 PM
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I'm not sure about the opera, though.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:48 PM
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216: This hat makes me feel secure, okay, so shut up.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:49 PM
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I presume the tavern is actually The Saloon. There's good Ethernopian food basically across the street from it, either at Dukem or down the street at Etete, to name but two.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:50 PM
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If I cannot convince you guys to come to Richmond, we might drive up.

Woot! (I'd love to come to Richmond sometime, but I can't swing it on this trip.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:53 PM
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Is McCarth working on the galvanized retsina? You describe him as a very determined man.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:54 PM
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Metro access kills the Zed's idea, since it's in Georgetown and those assholes don't have a Metro stop.

I was thinking of a place on U St. (the biggish one on the corner of U and 12th? 13th? Zed's sounded familiar, but clearly that's not the name.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:55 PM
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As for the date, if it's the 27th I wouldn't be able to join until 10pm or later due to the aforementioned concert (men in diapers hitting very large drums with big sticks), but as that's my 'hood I could also plan to get there late and then stumble home when they kick us out. I have no time constraints on other dates.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:56 PM
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The Saloon sounds like the bar SK is talking about. She's mentioning it for the meetup when I'm not going to be around, as I understand it, but it would work for the one I may or may not be around for as well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 2:58 PM
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Yeah, Dukem.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:01 PM
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166: re, studs

I've whored with both kinds. Ironically, the metal ones are lighter and thus easier to get upright than the woodies.


Posted by: Hortense | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:05 PM
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I think there's a typo in 227, but I don't care. It would still be funny if not.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:15 PM
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Is LB around?

max
['Need eyes to check me.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:15 PM
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You rang?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:31 PM
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Yes, ma'am! Could I get you to read a small section of a loan contract (operating under NY law) and tell me if it says what I think it says?

max
['Public interest here.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:39 PM
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Also, metal studs are generally 100% post-consumer recycled material, plus the light weight means lower shipping resources. Plus, obvs., straighter than the wood studs available for the foreseeable future. Varying gauges to accommodate varying uses.

In short, pretty much better for all interior wall purposes (exterior walls you need to worry about thermal bridging; OK if you have a hefty insulating sheathing). That said, I've never workedwhored with them personally.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:40 PM
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Oy. Um, I am not your attorney and anything I say is not legal advice. And for all you know, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a basset hound.

OTOH, if you emailed me at my hotmail address (linked from my name), I'd probably answer it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:41 PM
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Metal studs are wrong no matter how effing good they are. Let's not get all consequentialist about fundamental principles.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:50 PM
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Shorter JE: Kill the trees!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:52 PM
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232: They're just not very satisfying to screw in(to). And while splinters are no fun, every time I've gotten a cut from one of those metal members, it was a big tear and took forever to heal.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:54 PM
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Oy. Um, I am not your attorney and anything I say is not legal advice. And for all you know, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a basset hound.

Yes, I know that. I wouldn't ask that kind of question or for that kind of favor and wouldn't except in direst emergency. Doing so would be rude. I am actually asking for your basset hound services anyways.

max
['Mail sent!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 3:58 PM
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MAx, my legal advice is even freer than LB's and I won't quibble about all that legalistic shit she's always worrying her pretty head with.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:08 PM
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234: Stud framed buildings are wrong on fundamental principles, regardless of material. Seriously, houses* today are made of spit. No BS, the design lifetime of some houses being built today is 30 years. They don't fall down in year 31, but there's a nasty knee in maintenance costs right around then. Brick buildings, OTOH, have endured for millennia.

[*] Yes, "houses" not "homes" - a home is a place you've lived in for some time, placed your personal stamp on both physically and emotionally. Anyone trying to sell a "home" is a huckster.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:08 PM
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I think I mostly disagree with 239, though by no means vehemently, but I'd be interested in hearing JRoth's opinion on the matter.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:14 PM
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Brick buildings shake apart in earthquakes.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:16 PM
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242

Stud framed buildings are wrong on fundamental principles, regardless of material.

I'm not completely sure what's implied by the phrase "Stud framed buildings" but the building I live in was built using balloon framing , which appears to be a flavor of stud framing, and it is over ninety years old and completely solid.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:20 PM
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||
My defense is tomorrow. I think I'm going to shower the audience in vomit, like a sprinkler.

||
I think Abodhi Nihilistrator would be a good handle
|>

|>


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:22 PM
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every time I've gotten a cut from one of those metal members, it was a big tear and took forever to heal.

Good point. Even though I've never framed with them, I've handled them enough to get one of these cuts (I can't even recall - or imagine - the circumstance, but I remember the slice in the ham of my hand).

I get 239, but I don't actually agree (although I live in a house with solid brick exterior walls). There are wood frame houses in this country that are hundreds of years old. Hell, New England + NY probably contain half a million or more frame houses that are approaching 150+ years old. It has a lot more to do with the components - twisty studs with an EFIS exterior and 3/8" gyp board interior don't make for a long-lived house. But a well-built frame house will last indefinitely (wood only gets stronger with age, as anyone who's pulled nails from decades-old wood can tell you).

That said, 241 is true but silly. Most of the world isn't subject to earthquakes with enough regularity to make this a significant concern. It takes extra effort to make a frame structure earthquake-resistant as well.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:25 PM
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243's formatting is too advanced for me to comprehend. Hitting pause more than once doesn't have much of an effect, but the block quote changes its meaning?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:27 PM
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Just interjecting within my interjection.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:31 PM
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true but silly

Hmmph. You say insignificant structural concern, I say deepseated childhood phobia, po-tay-to, po-tah-to.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:36 PM
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238:Can I get freebies from other Unfoggedetarians?

From philosophasters:I am reading Schopenhauer.
Am I the Will?

And from literateurs:Who is right, and the "good guy" in Watchmen?

Thank you in advance.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:36 PM
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242 - I just dislike stick houses. No objective assessment intended. The gripe about the crap design life of some contemporary houses is legit, though. My first house was a timber framed place built in 1888 and its still going strong. The houses I see going up (or used to, back in the days when people still built houses instead of living under bridges) will be lucky to last half that without major investment. Which is fine, I suppose, but there's something about semi-disposable houses that just sits wrong with me.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:38 PM
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Who is right, and the "good guy" in Watchmen?

Reading Watchmen: ur doing it wrong.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:38 PM
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My defense is tomorrow. I think I'm going to shower the audience in vomit, like a sprinkler.

You'll do great! The best defense is a good offense, so be sure to ask your committee members lots of hard questions.

What field are you in?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:43 PM
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Building shoddy, semi-disposable houses is a long American tradition. It doesn't have any particular connection to stud framing or any other construction technique, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:44 PM
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Fake physics.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:44 PM
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Astrology?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:45 PM
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The gripe about the crap design life of some contemporary houses is legit

Absolutely. The most maddening thing about the housing market of the past X years is that there was no longer any such thing as a well-built house: it was all just a question of square footage and cost of finishes. But they were all* built with the same crap materials and methods. Shacks of 100 years ago were at least built with better wood (because they were still busily destroying old/ancient growth forests). It was breathtaking to see people paying $750k for houses built with studs I wouldn't use for basement shelving.

* Or close enough


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:46 PM
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Applied.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:46 PM
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Isn't all astrology applied?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:47 PM
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Building shoddy, semi-disposable houses is a long American tradition.

It'll be interesting to see how long the current generation survives unmaintained. Ordinary houses of 100 years ago are often still sound after 20+ years of malign neglect following on 20+ years of benign neglect. I have trouble believing that McMansions will do as well, but studs + 12d nails are surprisingly resilient....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:49 PM
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If a charlatan writes a horoscope and noone reads it, is there a fraud?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:49 PM
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I suppose theoretical astrology would be astronomy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:51 PM
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You feel completely prepared for tomorrow's big step -- even if you hadn't really seen it coming! You may need to help a friend or loved one come to terms with it, but that's what you're best at!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:51 PM
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Isn't all astrology applied?

Not at all. I read my horoscope, but I never do anything with it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:53 PM
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New thread! May I suggest something along the lines of this, via EotAW, who are clearly trying to muscle in on our turf.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:54 PM
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I liked the retsina I had in greece.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:56 PM
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Good luck, Turgid Jacobian. You'll be awesome. My defense was surprisingly fun. And vomit-less. (But then again, I suspect that since we defend the project proposal, as opposed to the actual project, that things were quite different. And I'm weird, because I even liked my comprehensive exams).


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:56 PM
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Why do we need a new thread? This one seems to be doing fine. It hasn't even come close to adequately addressing the original topic, nor does it seem likely to.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:57 PM
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Yeah, I doubt I'll actually vomit. Externally.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:57 PM
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This thread has made me laugh audibly several times. Which I needed.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:57 PM
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In an earlier thread I was about to point out that if the Romans build aqueducts that lasted 2,000 years, they were obviously not managing their material and labor resources at all wisely. I'm sure that they could have got the job done for a few centuries at a tenth the cost, by which time Rome would probably be gone anyway.

In fact, this sort of uneconomic use of resources, the fetish for "permanence" and large chunks of rock, is probably exactly why Rome fell. Ironically, if their aqueducts had been more shoddily built, Rome might have survived.

De Roma

Qui Romam in media quaeris novus advena Roma,
Et Romae in Roma nil reperis media,
Aspice murorum moles, praeruptaque saxa,
Obrutaque horrenti vasta theatra situ:
Haec sunt Roma. Viden velut ipsa cadavera, tantae
Urbis adhuc spirent imperiosa minas.
Vicit ut haec mundum, nixa est se vincere; vicit,
A se non victum ne quid in orbe foret.
Nunc victa in Roma Roma illa invicta sepulta est,
Atque eadem victrix victaque Roma fuit.
Albula Romani restat nunc nominis index,
Quinetiam rapidis fertur in aequor aquis.
Disce hinc, quid possit fortuna; immota labascunt,
Et quae perpetuo sunt agitata manent.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 4:57 PM
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263: And now I think that the name Douche-hat is even more appropriate. Asshole.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:00 PM
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238: MAx, my legal advice is even freer than LB's and I won't quibble about all that legalistic shit she's always worrying her pretty head with.

Dude. Lemme try again. Concerned citizen A (that's me) was asking Concerned Citizen B (the one with the legal expertise in New York financial law) about a public contract entered into by a government-owned entity using government money (making it public business) and a private corporation in which I have absolutely no personal financial or fiduciary interest whatsoever, or any other kind of interest except that of a private citizen (journalist?) concerned with the conduct of government business. I think the equivalent would be if I posted a section of the constitution (or a public law) and asked, 'Does that say what I think it says?'

Again, I would ask for the other kinds that I should pay for for free, unless I was just desperate, in which case the question would be something like, 'Know any good lawyers in XXX?' But I probably couldn't ask such a question from jail.

max
['Damn. Now I feel bad.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:05 PM
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Oh, it's a wonderful, beautiful thread. It's just that I'm a believer in the two-thread approach. Also, apparently he won't do anything for love.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:05 PM
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271: My opinion is that fraud was involved and that you should go medieval on their ass.

Next?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:07 PM
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I missed that that anecdote meshed so beautifully with Douthat's nickname. "I'll do anything for love, but I won't have sex with a chunky girl who's on the pill".

I'm losing it. Senility. Damn.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:09 PM
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273: but not on their ox or their manservant or their manservant.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:09 PM
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Is that the servant's servant, John, or did you mean maidservant.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:18 PM
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Just don't fuck with the servants or the oxen. I'm too senile to specify further.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:23 PM
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Fair enough.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:25 PM
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268 was not a reply to 263, and the link in 263 produced one of the audible laughs. Let a million threads bloom! Pacing is for suckers!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:25 PM
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I live in DC too! I like Solly's.


Posted by: Cecily | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:25 PM
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Let a million threads bloom! Pacing is for suckers!

If only there were someone here with posting privileges.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:29 PM
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...and something to say.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:30 PM
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I considered posting the link in 263, but having already derailed this thread with hat wearing and the inferiority of stud framing* I decided against it.

[*] stud framing really ought to be a mode of explication intended to emphasize the manliness of the protagonist. "I totally could have banged a Reese Witherspoon look-alike, but she wanted me to take off my hat, so I made up some shit about whiskey-dick and being gay" for example.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:30 PM
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[*] stud framing really ought to be a mode of explication intended to emphasize the manliness of the protagonist.

So what you're saying is "Don't Think of an Elephant"?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:33 PM
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If you don't like the top hat, you don't get the goods; that's my rule.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:33 PM
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I think Unfogged should officially issue a call for Douthat to be fired.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:34 PM
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We don't want to intrude on DeLong's territory.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:35 PM
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Because the Washington Post has given me ample recent opportunity to learn that while writing angry letters and insisting that people get fired is not very productive, it is kind of fun.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:35 PM
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287: He's falling down on the job on this one, though. And the comment thread about Douthat on his blog is kind of... unsavory.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:37 PM
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289
And the comment thread about Douthat on his blog is kind of... unsavory.

How so? OK, I suppose calling Douthat gay is demeaning to gays, and assuming that any straight guy would have had sex in that situation reinforces patriarchal stereotypes, but those are both pretty small potatoes as unsavoriness in comment threads goes. Unless DeLong's threads are unusually well-mannered; I wouldn't know. And one commenter says basically that if the girl was ugly then his rudeness to her doesn't matter, but that commenter gets called out for it later. All things considered, the thread seems more civil than most about subjects like that.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 5:56 PM
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Is the claim that "osculating" means "kissing" a big prank played by generations of Latin teachers?

Not off-topic, if you are genuinely committed to keeping up with the internet.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:23 PM
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Douthat's won't-belong-to-a-club-that'll-have-me reaction is utterly unremarkable. It's his rudeness and shaming that are atrocious.

Plenty of men learn their desire for the attention of flirting before they comprehend their desire for sex, and find themselves backing away from a fire they've lit. Lord knows I used to do it that way.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:25 PM
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Good grief. Douthat actually acquitted himself fairly well on Bill Moyers' show several months ago, a young conservative you might not have to hate. I don't envy DeLong's apparently self-appointed role as guardian of the gates of public opinion.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:26 PM
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What's up with Standpipe? Never writes, never calls, and then it turns out s/he's all giving it up for free over at that copycat blog. Slut.

Plus, "chunkier Reese Witherspoon"? Stay classy, Ross Douchebag.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:31 PM
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291: It doesn't?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:31 PM
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Read it again, Wrongshore. The critical moment where he definitively loses interest is when the woman tells him she's on the Pill. I'm guessing that you've never found that a particular turn-off.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:33 PM
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296: not responsive to 291. And the oed seems to think osculate is to kiss or salute with the lips. So.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:37 PM
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Wikipedia says, "Often it means 'to kiss', sometimes used in a 'tongue-in-cheek' fashion." So, like, French.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:38 PM
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And the oed seems to think osculate is to kiss or salute with the lips.

Well that puts the phrase "nos morituri te salutamus" in a new light.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:41 PM
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An osculating circle to a curve at a point is one that is tangent to the curve with the same radius of curvature.

Laydeez.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:44 PM
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Nos morituri te osculamur.

The Latin textbook we used in my first year contained the dialogue "da mihi osculum!".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:47 PM
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292: It is an awful thing that I will not pretend to find incomprehensible. But no, I haven't done that particular move.

You are young. You find yourself going through motions that you think are expected of you. You're not sure what awaits you. You're not sure how quickly sexual desire should play out, and you feel somewhat protected by the barriers that stand in the way of getting what you want.

You have a vague sense that the two of you are both equally in the dark, which will permit you to enact a masculine role of aggressor without actually hurting anyone. Then she speaks out of turn--basically steps on your line--and now you have to grow up very quickly, or not. Douthat does not.



Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:55 PM
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You people are so gullible. If you learned some skepticism in Latin class, AIG never would have happened.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 6:56 PM
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Hey nosflow --

da mi basia mille, deinde centum,
dein mille altera, dein secunda centum,
deinde usque altera mille, deinde centum.

. . . but don't tell W-lfs-n.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:08 PM
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It's important to keep in mind that what we're reading in Douthat's excerpt is his version of the story from the perspective of a few years later, written for a book with a very definite purpose in how it presents his experiences at Harvard.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:17 PM
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My greatest regret in life is that I missed multiple opportunities to have sex with a woman who could, conceivably, be called a chunkier Reese Witherspoon (she was even on the pill). And Catholicism even played into my poor decisionmaking! But I didn't do any fucking shaming about it, and have the decency to feel stupid about it years later.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:18 PM
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Her version:

"He was holding something in his hand which could only be compared to a dead geoduck and looking at me with eyes full of terror. Whether it was from drunkenness or from the politeness and consideration which had been instilled in the ladies in my family for centuries I do not know, but I decided that the kindest thing to do was to go ahead with it. But no good deed goes unpunished, as I found out years later...."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:18 PM
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I commend your use of "geoduck."


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:21 PM
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305: I don't think that makes it any better, do you?

I think DeLong has shown himself to be a real mensch in the Douthat situation.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:21 PM
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I don't think that makes it any better, do you?

No, I think it makes it worse.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:21 PM
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Thank God my youthful, insufficiently distant autobiographical novel was not accepted by any of its professional readers.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:22 PM
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I think Wrongshore's likely right about how the actual encounter went at the time, but then, given the opportunity to think about it for a few years and write it up for publication Douthat chose to focus above all else on his disdain for the girl. The choice to showcase her high opinion of him with the "Harvard man" quote at the same time strikes me as particularly cruel.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:24 PM
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Although I bet that if it had a Conservative-at-Harvard angle my novel could've launched a protected-minority media career!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:24 PM
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302
You have a vague sense that the two of you are both equally in the dark, which will permit you to enact a masculine role of aggressor without actually hurting anyone. Then she speaks out of turn--basically steps on your line--and now you have to grow up very quickly, or not. Douthat does not.

You left out the next part: then Douthat goes on to write about it as a self-serving, myopic morality play, maybe with enough detail to identify the girl in question.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:28 PM
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You are young. You find yourself going through motions that you think are expected of you.

Oh man, I did this. I was going steady with G. in 6th or 7th grade, and then we went to a party where these older girls bullied us into kissing for them. And I was so grossed out and mortified that I ran away and hid behind a car until the party was over, and I didn't talk to the poor guy again until we managed somehow to break it off, maybe through a third party? It totally served me right when years later he turned up as a friend of a friend, drop-dead gorgeous and reputed to be modeling.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:29 PM
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a Conservative-at-Harvard angle

Hmm. Are there any "liberal-at-Liberty" romans à clef?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:31 PM
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No, they all get expelled for making eye babies


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:33 PM
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Pwned by 312...


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:37 PM
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312 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:37 PM
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I've already been pwned by 312, but I don't care.

If you find yourself turned off because someone tells you they use birth control, you are mentally ill, and need either professional medical help, or PGDtopia the help of your friends and family.

If you then write it up in an autobiography, and don't write it up in such a way to communicate that in retrospect you realize you were a bastard, tnen you are a bastard now. And if you can't tell the story in such a way that you run the risk of humiliating the woman all over again, this time publicly, then you better take that story to your motherfucking grave.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:41 PM
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I had a depressing experience much like Douthat's and somewhat the same age, but I came to rather different conclusions about it and didn't try to use the story to break into the bigtime winger agitprop biz, or any other biz. Years later (this is true) I saw the lady's photo in the National Geographic, where she had migrated to become a fisherwoman with her own boat. (The story of Reed's influence on the Alaskan fishing industry remains to be written.)

Even at the time I realized that the problem was with me or with the moment, and I never have said much if anything about it to anyone. It would have been like telling the world about an unfortunate youthful episode of drunken incontinence, not that I've ever had such a thing.

Douthat's mix of self-contempt, disdain for the woman, and pious meanness is really extremely creepy.

(All this seems like a weenie version of the several street preachers I've heard who began their spiels by explaining that They'd Been There, which they proved by listing all the various drugs and perversions they'd been involved with.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:47 PM
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320: Let's not medicalize. I think that "creep" is the right term.

What terrified Douthat was his own lack of desire, as if his original sin had failed him.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:50 PM
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I'm late coming to this. Do I have to read the entire thread to figure out if you all settled on dates? If one is planned, can there be a front-page post about it? I am in the mood to visit DC. As I am a procrastinating grad student riding out the recession, I can plan my visit around UnfoggeDCon. NY'ers better take that bus down. I'm talkin' to YOU, AWB.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:57 PM
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320: I strongly agree with "if you then write it up, you are a bastard," but I understand how he could experience it that way. Desire is frightening, and it's frightening to find that someone's desire greatly outflanks your own.

Comity prevails that the greater crime was in writing it up hurtfully or at all, with no mature perspective.

I'm taking pains to empathize with Douthat in the situation because the "he must be gay to have bailed on sex" theme is rampant in the DeLong comments.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:58 PM
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as if his original sin had failed him.

is even better than geoduck.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 7:59 PM
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It's the contemptuous piety that's so maddening.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:03 PM
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304—I ask you, how many will be enough?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:05 PM
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As I am a procrastinating grad student riding out the recession, I can plan my visit around UnfoggeDCon.

Such a large-scale thing does not seem to be in the offing, though.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:07 PM
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There's a genre of conservative writing where the narrator decides to experience what I guess is supposed to be a slice of the liberal modern life, which is then held in first-person contempt: "I went to an anti-war protest and was shocked to find people with puppets as props"; "I took a class in women's studies and was shocked to find feminism taken seriously"; and so on. This is in the same vein but much more personal and distasteful.

I suppose the idea is to show that if you can't actually stand athwart history and yell stop and expect things to stop, you can at least show yourself able to face all the temptations of the world we live in and remain yourself unchanged, with your values reaffirmed. Distant contempt just doesn't have the same impact.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:07 PM
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I would actually prefer a smaller-scale meetup, but I'll go to whatever. I'm up for a late March meet-up too.

Oh, and if people are making suggestions for things to do, the WPA art exhibit at the American Art Museum is really pretty amazing (to my untrained eye, at least).


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:10 PM
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Has somebody linked to his column on how asian students totally don't suck up to him? That one was a winner.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:14 PM
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I actually appreciate Wrongshore's efforts to be empathetic here, and I think we can generally comprehend being in at least an analogous situation. But both the details (the last straw being The Pill) and the telling (every bit of it) reflect so badly on Douthat that I find him beyond empathy. He's not telling a story about (his) human frailty - he's telling a story about how a nasty fat slut almost tricked him into giving up his manly essence.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:16 PM
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Whom among us has not been young and uncertain with a masticating vixen in our arms? You feel psyched and daunted, shaky and like God is double daring you. You either do or you don't, but if you didn't, wouldn't you come up with some kind of rationale? I think this is how God makes Republicans.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:19 PM
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334

I think that most guys, except Apo, have found the Old Adam letting them down now and then, and the early episodes of this are disturbing. But different guys deal with it differently.

It's not necessarily mpotence, either, just lack of enthusiasm and failure to project excitement. "She can tell I'm not having as much fun as guys are supposed to have".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:22 PM
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334: Apo told me that it wasn't unusual, and that it happened to him all the time. *Lip quivers.*


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:24 PM
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Have we split into two groups yet?

March 28th in DC?
April 3 in DC?

You people should be going to Boston the weekend of April 3 to see the Rage Bunny show. Support mcmc!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:26 PM
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I'm late coming to this. Do I have to read the entire thread to figure out if you all settled on dates?

No. You can rest assured that we have not. We've now moved on to discussing Ross Douthat's libido.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:40 PM
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Desire is frightening, and it's frightening to find that someone's desire greatly outflanks your own.

No question.

I'm taking pains to empathize with Douthat in the situation because the "he must be gay to have bailed on sex" theme is rampant in the DeLong comments.

Good lord. Talk about missing the point. This is why I don't read comments outside of Greater Unfogged.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:43 PM
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334: Sure, fair enough, I'll admit it not even presidentially. But even giving him the most charitable interpretation imaginable of the event he describes, blaming the girl for it and writing about it?


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:47 PM
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Good lord. Talk about missing the point. This is why I don't read comments outside of Greater Unfogged.

As I said somewhere above, the comment thread there is unsavory. In places it sort of degenerated into Fark-esque "Reese Witherspoon? I'd hit that!" comments.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 8:47 PM
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323: Hee. I doubt I will be able to make it, as I'll have spent the weekend of 3/27 in Richmond at a conference. OH HAI! Anyone want to hang out in VA weekend after next? I have srs bzniss to do, but may be available for a little non-field-specific fun one night.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:00 PM
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What?!?!? A weekend in Richmond? Call us.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:03 PM
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309: DeLong isn't far left of center, but he seems to have more curiosity than any ten other economists put together. Even his syllabi look more like history than econ syllabi. Dialogue with his readers, including those who disagree, seems important to him.

He's been looking for an honest, intelligent conservative to dialogue with for years, and for the last six months I've been explaining to him that he is an honest, intelligent conservative.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:06 PM
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And DeLong Jr. is a Reedy. Hope that works.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:08 PM
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Have we split into two groups yet?

March 28th in DC?
April 3 in DC?

Looks that way, if it's not overly complicated. Looks like Sir Kraab has a proposal for 3/28 of semi-concreteness at 201 awaiting some confirmation. I'm re-reading the thread trying to figure out a tentative headcount for 4/3.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:12 PM
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I almost forgot to mention that I might be able to make a Portland meetup in the fall. I'm almost certainly going to head through on my way further north, but I don't know if I'll be able to stop by on that trip.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:13 PM
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Looks like Sir Kraab has a proposal for 3/28 of semi-concreteness at 201 awaiting some confirmation.

And I have a similar (if not identical) proposal for 4/3 at 225, although I'm still not sure if I'll actually be able to attend.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:18 PM
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And DeLong Jr. is a Reedy

Ah, I was wondering where s'he'd end up. Seems like a good choice, based on my extremely limited knowledge.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:18 PM
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All right, for 4/3, I have

teo?
eb
Turgid Jacobian
Charley Carp
PGD
Becks?
catherine?
Cyrus
Rah?
Robust?
togolosh
'smasher?
Frostbite?
fedward?
eekbeat
me!

With possible venues (now including teo's 225!) including The Saloon, PGD's (if it's a group of 10-12 or fewer), or some other bar, rented out, which I'm assuming catherine or 'Smasher might be able to help with.

Clarifications and additions solicited.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:25 PM
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Since AWB is in Richmond, we might have a splinter group here now.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:29 PM
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First, the 201 proposal was for 3/27, not 3/28, though I can do either.

Second, re: location, I just spoke with some knowledgeable locals, and they said although The Saloon is a fine place, it's quite crowded on Friday nights, and exacerbated by a policy of not letting people exist in the area unless they have seats.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:45 PM
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FYI: The Mont Pelerin Society has pushed in front of the Trilateral Commission, Opus Dei, the Knights of Malta, the Grover Norquist Daisy Chain, The Family (behind the National Prayer Breakfast), et. al. on the list of actually-existing actually-conspiratorial villain groups.

The MP Society is 70 years old, but the wreckage you will be seeing (or are already seeing, if you're an Icelander) is their work. They really have ruled the world for 50 years.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:46 PM
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Every goddamn place is crowded on Friday nights, children. And the whole east coast is crowded all the time, but more so in winter.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:48 PM
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We cannot do 3/27 so we will stay in Richmond. Darn it. I was hoping minvet would teach me tamil.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:48 PM
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I can attest that the Saloon is particularly bad, though, because they really do require people to sit at tables. And they don't have very many tables. If you can get a table, though, it's pretty nice.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:50 PM
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You were going to learn Tamil in 3/27? Was minivet going to download into your head, Matrix-style?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:51 PM
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351: Ooh, thanks for that clarification. I'm pretty much hoping to punt that event in Sir Kraab's general direction and hoping she doesn't resent me for it. She's just got such a go-getter attitude.

(Deal, Sir Kraab? I can front-page any updates you need posted.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:52 PM
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But it won't be winter anymore by the time the meetup happens!


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 9:57 PM
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I'm uncomfortable with the EOTW thread about Douthat as well. The first half of the comments are mostly "Hurr durr, he couldn't get it up, LOL", and "I use my psychological powers to diagnose his boorishness as arising from an attempt to rationalize his failure to get it up".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:25 PM
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Turgid Jacobian comes with Bonsaisue (Mrs.TJ), and Soren (progeny ~1yr, don't worry about cursing, he's been hanging around graduate students since his birth)


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:29 PM
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360: Noted, thanks. I look forward to cursing in front of your child.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:43 PM
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359: Eh? The first half of the comments there seem to me to be mostly complaints about his prose and random in-jokes, with just a little mockery of his inability to get it up.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 10:54 PM
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Sure thing.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:19 PM
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Deal, Sir Kraab?

Deal.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:37 PM
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We cannot do 3/27 so we will stay in Richmond.

I'm flexible if Saturday or Sunday would work, but now that you know AWB's going to be in Richmond . . . .


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:42 PM
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although The Saloon is a fine place, it's quite crowded on Friday nights

Yeah, I'm realizing that my visits to The Saloon have been on school nights.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:43 PM
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And the whole east coast is crowded all the time, but more so in winter.

At least east coast crowds are made of people rather than carp.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:45 PM
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Off the top of my head I can think of a couple bars that do room rentals based merely on a guaranteed minimum collective bar tab (friends have used DC9 and Larry's Lounge), but I honestly can't remember if that minimum tab is higher on a weekend. And I had forgotten the Saloon's "no standing" policy, which I think rules it right out for a big group on a weekend.

From personal experience I can say we could take over the booths at Playbill easily, but it's awkwardly positioned between Metro stops, which might make it harder to get to/from than people want. Tunnicliff's (mentioned upthread) has turned into a big actor hangout due to the late night food menu and has a big room in the back, making the size of the group less of an issue (in fact, many members of the cast and crew of Ion were headed there when we left the official opening night cast party tonight). It's also close to Metro.

My first bar visit in DC -- before I even thought of moving here -- was the Hawk and Dove (near Eastern Market, also the stop for Tunny's) so that's usually on my list for out-of-towners. But I'm also perfectly happy to leave all the heavy lifting to Catherine, since she's got the press connections. I'm just a guy who likes a good cocktail now and then.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:47 PM
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271: My opinion is that fraud was involved and that you should go medieval on their ass.

Did not realize other thread had long discussion about AIG, which started about 2 minutes after I staggered off to bed. Oops. Sorry. Roughly: was asking LB question (unrelated to executive bonuses) about bailout contract. She concurred with my reading, so I explained entire tale to her. Otherwise gave up for day, and she may or may not have something to say about it. However: brief summary version of what I said is (if I am correct) that AIG has wired itself to the (analogy alert!) nuclear weapon it constructed, and has the weapon on deadman trigger. Making it actually dangerous to even consider going after actual contract mods. The weapon may not detonate if triggered, but it might work. Have strong suspicion that Obama does not quite understand the legal problem, because almost no one else seems to either. Except Geithner and FReserve.

Might be wrong tho, in several ways.

p.s. to PoMo: who said AIG:FPD London stopped writing CDS contracts? They have strong incentives to continue issuing them. Even if (possibly especially if) they will individually blow up. I didn't say they have done so, but have not found legal requirement that they stop.

max
['Tired, going to bed.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:49 PM
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The east coast smells.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:52 PM
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368: As far as I'm concerned, the Hawk & Dove is for people who work in Washington (i.e., Hill staffers in rep ties), not people who live in the District.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:53 PM
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370: So does the stuff flowing out of your nose.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:54 PM
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Wait, it smells? Why wasn't I told?! Dang it, it better not be "paper mill".


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-16-09 11:56 PM
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Maybe we could just send hitmen after the principals and their heirs, and the Congressmen and media people who enabled them.

All the reasonable stuff about how the bad guys have rigged the system so that they can't lose doesn't make me more moderate or reasonable at all. Entirely the opposite, as you all might expect. But Americans, Democrats, liberals, and the Unfoggetariat are docile bodies, and I'm too fucking old to lead anything.

Nothing personal, of course.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:01 AM
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371: The only time I've seen the rep tie crowd at the Hawk is on a Saturday afternoon during college football season. They're really loud, but my Dallas-native friend and I needed neutral ground to watch the Oklahoma-Texas game (as Brent Mushmouthberger likes to remind everybody, the Rrrrred Rrrrriver Rrrrrrivalry).


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:10 AM
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fedward,

your photos and blog are interesting. I remember the space shuttle in a slightly different way. I was in kindergarten, and crushed when I got up to watch it and saw the 'splosion.

I think that you should have brought egg-containers to the inauguration to sit upon.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:09 AM
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i think if we get the early enough and there's not a terrible comedy act/live band/musician, the upstairs at solly's (on 11th and U St. NW off the U street green line metro station) would suffice. same with the terribly, awesomely divey townhouse tavern on 17th and R. for something nicer, we could try the upstairs at bourbon in adams morgan. i'd recommend against renting a room, i don't think it's necessary. all of my suggestions though are dependent on us getting there relatively early on a friday night to take over the space, cause no matter where we go it's probably going to get pretty crowded. 'smasher might have more suggestions.


Posted by: catherine | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:02 AM
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I assume Catherine is talking about the 3rd, but the suggestions are helpful for the 27th/28th (I'm punting to Sir Kraab too re: date). Is there anyone in the earlier meetup who could snag a table early?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:14 AM
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Brickskellar or whatever it was seemed to have a pretty good space at UDC2, but it might be woefully inconvenient or something and their Manhattan was not memorable. (It was wicked convenient for us, as we were staying around the corner, but this time we're staying closer to the WH/Mall area.)

I'm going to go ahead and commit us for Friday night, 3 April, as Rah may or may not have time/energy to weigh in anytime soon; he's sick and we're having mysterious cat sickness issues as well, so we are The House of No Good Sleep. If he wants us to see a performance of something it'll just have to be Saturday night.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:30 AM
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I was hoping minvet would teach me tamil.

I'll teach you Tamil, will. When I am done with you, you'll be able to count to ten, ask to be given some more food, and say the words for arm, fart, and belly.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:40 AM
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Thanks Blume!

Will you be teaching me how to say "Holy smokes! That is hot! Please pass the yogurt."?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:57 AM
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381: that's phrased "Give me more belly, seven fart! Arm!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:58 AM
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I am not sure that Blume has been a good influence on Sifu.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 8:03 AM
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383:How does one say "cherchez la femme" in Tamil?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 8:06 AM
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will, my dear, would you please respond to 365 at your convenience? (I'm being pushy because I'm trying to made plans with a bunch other D.C. friends.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 8:07 AM
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Stanley, I'm in for 4/3


Posted by: Frostbite | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 8:51 AM
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Argh. I could actually switch my flight to April 4th (and it's Southwest, who wouldn't charge me) so I could see everyone and meet the unmet, but if the flight were delayed, I'd miss my brother's 50th birthday party. Cruel, cruel Fate.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 9:14 AM
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374: Maybe we could just send hitmen after the principals and their heirs, and the Congressmen and media people who enabled them.

Dude. If I thought it would work, I'd go for it.

All the reasonable stuff about how the bad guys have rigged the system so that they can't lose doesn't make me more moderate or reasonable at all.

It makes me really angry, and when I get angry I start determinedly looking for avenues to victory.

Entirely the opposite, as you all might expect. But Americans, Democrats, liberals, and the Unfoggetariat are docile bodies, and I'm too fucking old to lead anything.

'Let George do it.'

Nothing personal, of course.

Wasn't taking it that way. I dislike sitting here taking it as much and maybe even more than you do.

Anyways, LB think I have the correct reading, but that it isn't important. Roughly, what I was on about is, is that neither the government nor the Federal Reserve owns any part of AIG except the 2% they took in November. That other 79.9% is not owned by anybody but AIG, but the Fed is holding them as collateral. Much more importantly (in my view), the government doesn't vote those equities.

(long pause) AIG management, by contract, votes those equities. So AIG is essentially operating (legally) as a private partnership company where the partners manage the company. As a consequence, the bailout contract made it easier (much easier in my opinion) for the company to decide to default, because the government can't act fast enough to prevent the board from voting to default. Thus they hold the potential danger of default over the head of Treasury and the Fed. The only control the government exercises is via a few small provisions about dividends and the like, unless AIG defaults, which is what the government is actually trying to avoid.

Neat, huh? So USG/T/FedR has no standing to interfere in AIG operations. People (journalists) keep assuming that AIG is owned by the government and therefore the government can simply control AIG if they wish, but they can't. The contract FRBNY signed prevents that from occurring. Hell, it effectively prevents owners of common stock from acting. I'm not sure if even Obama quite grasps this, but I betcha Geithner does.

Anyways, sorry to intrude on party planning.

max
['Boobytraps! Whee!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 9:53 AM
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386: Thanks! I have Frostbite, Rah, and Robust moved to "yep!". I defer to catherine, et. al. on the venue and the advice to arrive early. What time was everyone thinking anyhow, for 4/3? Is 8pm early enough to take over?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:05 AM
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So am I correct in reading 388 to mean that Geithner his own self created this situation (as he WAS the FRBNY at the time)?

He has seemed problematic for awhile, but it's looking increasingly like he's actually the villain of the piece (I recognize that he's being set up this way; doesn't mean he isn't).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:05 AM
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390: Yes. I guarantee you that AIG went back to him (in September) and said they would blow up the world if he didn't accept the form of bailout contract they wanted AND that they also made representations to him that he would be taken care of afterwards if he needed a job or something.

I can flip you what I sent LB if you want. Email under name.

max
['Do dah.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:09 AM
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Huh. I remember knowing that the government's equity interest in AIG would be non-voting back last fall -- there was a lot of loose talk about how incredibly damaging it would be for the government to actually run anything, rather than just hand out money. Let me go try to find a cite.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:19 AM
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re: 392

Yes, in the UK it's been similar. The government owns a lot of the various banks but doesn't exercise full control. I'm vague on the exact details, though, and wiki doesn't really enlighten me as to the exact level of control the government can exercise over the various banks and through which methods.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:25 AM
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Here's the NYT explaining the terms back last September:

Under the plan, the Fed will make a two-year loan to A.I.G. of up to $85 billion and, in return, will receive warrants that can be converted into common stock giving the government nearly 80 percent ownership of the insurer, if the existing shareholders approve.

The government only gets voting stock if the loan isn't paid back.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:33 AM
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Okay, so: I will be in Montreal probably between the 3rd and the 19th of August, but extremely busy between 6th and 10th August. Anyone for a Montrealer breakfast some time?

But I still advocate for a UK UnfoggeDCon, over afternoon tea.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:34 AM
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re: 395

I would be up for the UK one. I might agitate for the beer replacing tea option. Getting pissed is a great British tradition.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:36 AM
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Come to think of it, NY's been short on the meetups lately. Anyone else interested in a no-special-reason bar night sometime soon, or are their any out-of-towners likely to be here in the near future to provide an excuse?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 10:44 AM
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395: Surely, you mean UnfoggedKon.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 11:29 AM
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Here's the NYT explaining the terms back last September:

Yes. I read the exact same story. And then afterwards lots of people (Krugman, for one) said that AIG was effectively nationalized. There ain't no nationalization about it.

Under the plan, the Fed will make a two-year loan to A.I.G. of up to $85 billion and, in return, will receive warrants that can be converted into common stock giving the government nearly 80 percent ownership of the insurer, if the existing shareholders approve.

The NYT Today:

The tangle over bonuses highlighted a broader confusion over who actually controls the insurance conglomerate. The Treasury and the Federal Reserve have both pumped vast amounts of money into the company, but the two agencies have never made it clear which of them is in charge.
Both agencies have insisted that neither of them "owns" A.I.G., or controls its management decisions, even though the federal government owns almost 80 percent of the company. As a result, the Treasury and Fed officials have repeatedly resisted forcing the company to disclose more about how A.I.G. was spending taxpayer money.
It was only on Sunday, after Democratic lawmakers had criticized the Fed and Treasury for weeks for being too protective of the company, that A.I.G. released the names of the companies that it had repaid with money it received from the government.

The WSJ says the same:

At issue are retention bonuses for employees of AIG's financial-products division, whose credit default swaps brought AIG to the brink of collapse. The government controls AIG through an 80% equity stake and as a major lender and doesn't have legal authority to freeze payments on its own.

So the NYT insists that the government owns 80% of AIG when, in fact, they do not. The WSJ says the government controls 80% of AIG. The government doesn't own or control anything. They should own an 80% stake, but they don't. They should have written the contract to allow the government to exercise voting control, but they did not. They should have written a provision preventing AIG from going into default without government permission, but they did not (that I have seen). People keep talking and acting as though what should have been done was what was done. What was done was almost exactly the opposite of what should have been done.

The government only gets voting stock if the loan isn't paid back.

Even better, if AIG can make enough money, they can buy themselves out from under. So they need to sell some CDS insurance to make the cash to pay off the loan. (If the CDS insurance fails, well, that's what bailouts and defaults are for.) Oh, and before the bailout, going into default would've required a board meeting, which would've required rounding up enough shareholders via public announcement, with no guarantees that the vote would go the way management would want. Now management can call a board meeting involving just the CEO and one other person, and have a majority of voting shares present and ready to vote.

Also, it appears that the government could only force out the original CEO. Not the current one. It's a pretty nifty deal for AIG. I want the guy who negotiated the contract on my team, because he is a mean, evil fucker who will kill and eat the other lawyer in court.

max
['Literally.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 11:36 AM
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Sir Kraab:

I'd come up Saturday night if people were meeting. BR is thinking that she is a maybe since we are running a 10k that morning.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 11:44 AM
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The greatest election ever: 1936, Minnesota's Eighth Congressional District (which later on was Bob Dylan's district). The moderate Democratic candidate was a Communist, and he defeated both the extremist Democrat and the incumbent Republican to become the district's representative in Congress.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:05 PM
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Will you be teaching me how to say "Holy smokes! That is hot! Please pass the yogurt."?

Oh, I forgot! I know how to say "That is hot!" too.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:06 PM
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Can you teach me how to say "How come Tamil porn is so very, very, very soft? I cannot get off on a man's hand lightly brushing a woman's shoulder, and that's Tamil XXXX."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:13 PM
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399

... Oh, and before the bailout, going into default would've required a board meeting, ...

If they don't have enough money to pay they are going to default board meeting or no board meeting.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:18 PM
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Blume:

I would also like to lean how to say, "Does your daughter like my son?"

A law school roommate's grandma only spoke Tamil. It seemed so melodic and totally impossible to understand or learn.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:25 PM
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Anybody have PGD's email address? Send it to me at mypseud at geemail, if you would. Thanks.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:37 PM
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Anyone else interested in a no-special-reason bar night sometime soon

Predictably, I think this is a great idea.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:39 PM
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405
I would also like to lean how to say, "Does your daughter like my son?"

A law school roommate's grandma only spoke Tamil. It seemed so melodic and totally impossible to understand or learn.

That would be a very strange question to ask the grandmother of your roommate.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 12:51 PM
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Tamil culture has extraordinarily complex courting rituals.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:03 PM
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Tamil culture has extraordinarily complex courting rituals.

And a brush on the arm is their equivalent of having sex. If a man has wrongly brushed he arm, a Tamil woman cannot marry and must work forever at a call center troubleshooting booby-trapped Microsoft releases.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:07 PM
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And a brush on the arm is their equivalent of having sex.

Tamils have over 36,000 different kinds of arm brushes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:09 PM
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388: Shit. If that's the case, the people at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York are retarded, and I wonder whether Geithner was the right choice for Treasury secretary.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:12 PM
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412 to 411.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 1:23 PM
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At this point I wouldn't mind seeing an orca and a lion fighting over Geithner's body.

Ooh! I know: throw Summers into the lion's cage and Geithner into the orca's tank.

To make it fair, Summers gets to wear a diver's suit and Geithner is strapped into a Land Rover.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 2:05 PM
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Hmm. I asked a finance-journalist friend about 388/399, and he didn't agree:


I think you're thinking of the warrants that AIG issued the Treasury on Nov. 25, 2008. The deal has been changed since; on March 4, AIG issued 100,000 shares of Series C Preferred Stock to the trust. These are voting shares, and "The holders of the Series C Preferred Stock have approximately 77.9 percent of the aggregate voting power of AIG's common stock." See their 8-K, issued March 5, and the 10-K of March 2 (section "Controlling Shareholder").


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 3:30 PM
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The government only gets voting stock if the loan isn't paid back.

This doesn't seem to follow from what's written here. There are restrictions on the government's exercise of the warrants?

max, you got a link to the relevant document? Or can you send something to my e-mail? Or offer some other illumination?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 3:33 PM
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Nathan-pwned.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 3:36 PM
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416: I could easily be confused or out-of-date; I haven't successfully kept on top of this one at all. (I haven't gotten to the point of sitting it out, but I'm not keeping up in detail either.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 3:37 PM
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Pardon moi. My apologies. Also, don't get mad at me, unfogged comment box.
Hmm. I asked a finance-journalist friend about 388/399, and he didn't agree:

They never do. Not until about six months later.

I think you're thinking of the warrants that AIG issued the Treasury on Nov. 25, 2008.

No.

The deal has been changed since; on March 4, AIG issued 100,000 shares of Series C Preferred Stock to the trust. These are voting shares, and "The holders of the Series C Preferred Stock have approximately 77.9 percent of the aggregate voting power of AIG's common stock." See their 8-K, issued March 5, and the 10-K of March 2 (section "Controlling Shareholder").

This is the 8-K filing for the original deal of 09/22/08.

Summary:

On September 22, 2008, American International Group, Inc. ("AIG") entered into an $85 billion revolving credit facility (the "Credit Facility") and a Guarantee and Pledge Agreement (the "Pledge Agreement") with the Federal Reserve Bank of New York ("NY Fed"). The Credit Facility has a two year term and bears interest at 3-month LIBOR plus 8.5%. The Credit Facility provides for an initial gross commitment fee of 2% of the total Credit Facility on the closing date. AIG will also pay a commitment fee on undrawn amounts at the rate of 8.5% per annum. Interest and the commitment fees are generally payable through an increase in the outstanding balance under the Credit Facility. Borrowings under the Credit Facility are conditioned on the NY Fed being reasonably satisfied with, among other things, AIG's corporate governance.
AIG is required to repay the Credit Facility from, among other things, the proceeds of certain asset sales and issuances of debt or equity securities. These mandatory repayments permanently reduce the amount available to be borrowed under the Credit Facility. The Credit Facility contains customary affirmative and negative covenants, including a requirement to maintain a minimum amount of liquidity and a requirement to use reasonable efforts to cause the composition of the Board of Directors of AIG to be satisfactory to the trust described below within 10 days after the establishment of the trust.
Under the agreement, AIG will issue a new series of perpetual, non-redeemable Convertible Participating Serial Preferred Stock (the "Preferred Stock") to a trust that will hold the Preferred Stock for the benefit of the United States Treasury. The Preferred Stock will, from issuance (i) be entitled to participate in any dividends paid on the common stock, with the payments attributable to the Preferred Stock being approximately, but not in excess of, 79.9% of the aggregate dividends paid on AIG's common stock, treating the Preferred Stock as if converted, and (ii) vote with AIG's common stock on all matters submitted to AIG's shareholders, and will hold approximately, but not in excess of, 79.9% of the aggregate voting power of the common stock, treating the Preferred Stock as if converted. The Preferred Stock will remain outstanding even if the Credit Facility is repaid in full or otherwise terminates.

Exhibit D from the Credit Agreement (around page ~1 billion):

Summary of Terms of Preferred Stock and Related Issues
Issuer - American International Group, Inc. ("AIG").
Purchaser - AIG Credit Facility Trust, a new trust established for the benefit of the United States Treasury ("Trust").
Securities - 100,000 shares of Convertible Participating Serial Preferred Stock ("Preferred Stock").
Voting rights - The Preferred Stock will vote with the common stock on all matters submitted to AIG's stockholders, and will be entitled to an aggregate number of votes equal to (i) the Initial Number of Shares (as defined below), as adjusted pursuant to the anti-dilution provisions, minus (ii) the votes, if any, attributable to shares of common stock previously issued on any partial conversion of the Preferred Stock; provided that the number of votes attributable to the Preferred Stock shall not exceed 79.9% of the aggregate number of votes of the Preferred Stock and the shares of common stock then outstanding.
Dividends - The Preferred Stock will be entitled to participate in any dividends paid on the common stock, and shall receive (i) the dividends attributable to the Initial Number of Shares, as adjusted pursuant to the anti-dilution provisions, minus (ii) the dividends, if any, paid with respect to shares of common stock previously issued on any partial conversion of the Preferred Stock; provided that the dividends attributable to the Preferred Stock shall not exceed 79.9% of the aggregate amount of dividends paid on the Preferred Stock and the shares of common stock then outstanding.
Conversion - Immediately after the stockholder vote, the Preferred Stock will be convertible into a number of shares of common stock (the "Initial Number of Shares") equal to 79.9% of that number plus the sum of the common stock then outstanding and the maximum number of shares then reserved for issuance with respect to AIG's Equity Units.
Anti-Dilution Provisions - The Preferred Stock will have customary anti-dilution provisions.
Equity issues - So long as the Trust's equity ownership, determined as the sum of its ownership of common stock and the number of shares of common stock underlying the Preferred Stock, shall equal or exceed 50% of the Initial Number of Shares (as adjusted pursuant to the anti-dilution provisions), AIG shall not issue any capital stock, or any or securities or instruments convertible or exchangeable into, or exercisable for, capital stock, without the written consent of the Trust other than (i)(x) issues of capital stock to satisfy any security or instrument existing on September 16, 2008 that is exercisable for, convertible into or exchangeable for common stock or (y) in respect of equity compensation awards issued in the ordinary course of business under AIG's Amended and Restated 2007 Stock Incentive Plan and (ii) subsequent to written notice from the Trust that AIG's corporate governance arrangements are satisfactory to the trustees (x) in respect of equity compensation awards issued under any equity compensation plan (including any material amendments thereto) approved by shareholders after September 16, 2008 in accordance with the shareholder approval requirements of the NYSE Listed Company Manual, (y) in respect of any tax-qualified plan approved in the ordinary course of business by the Board of Directors of AIG that meets the requirements of Sections 401(a) or 423 of the Internal Revenue Code or (z) in any one year, up to 0.5% of the outstanding shares of common stock pursuant to any other employee benefit plan, employment contract or similar arrangement that is approved by the Compensation and Management Resources Committee of the Board of Directors of AIG.

The Guarantee and Pledge Agreement, page 26 says:

Section 9. Right to Vote Securities. (a) Unless an Event of Default shall have occurred and be continuing, each Pledgor will have the right, from time to time, to vote and to give consents, ratifications and waivers with respect to any Pledged Security owned by it and the Financial Asset underlying any Pledged Security Entitlement owned by it, and the Secured Party will, upon receiving a written request from such Pledgor, deliver to such Pledgor or as specified in such request such proxies, powers of attorney, consents, ratifications and waivers in respect of any such Pledged Security that is registered in the name of the Secured Party or its nominee or any such Pledged Securities Entitlement as to which the Secured Party or its nominee is the Entitlement Holder, in each case as shall be specified in such request and be in form and substance satisfactory to the Secured Party. Unless an Event of Default shall have occurred and be continuing, the Secured Party will have no right to take any action which the owner of a Pledged Partnership Interest or Pledged LLC Interest is entitled to take with respect thereto, except the right to receive payments and other distributions to the extent provided herein.
(b) If an Event of Default shall have occurred and be continuing, the Secured Party will have the exclusive right to the extent permitted by law (and, in the case of a Pledged Partnership Interest or Pledged LLC Interest, by the relevant partnership agreement, limited liability company agreement, operating agreement or other governing document) to vote, to give consents, ratifications and waivers and to take any other action with respect to the Collateral, with the same force and effect as if the Secured Party were the absolute and sole owner thereof, and each Pledgor will take all such action as the Secured Party may reasonably request from time to time to give effect to such right; provided that the Secured Party will not have the right to vote, to give consents, ratifications or waivers or to take any other action with respect to the Equity Interest in any Regulated Subsidiary, in each case to the extent that such action would require any notice to, filing with or the taking of any other action by a Governmental Authority, unless such notice, filing or action shall have been made, granted or approved.

So, AIG pledged the all the subsidiaries and all the properties of the company as collateral (that is, a transaction lien was placed on the properties). That collateral is held in a trust run by the FRBNY. The trust is run for the benefit of the Treasury, but FRB runs it, and AIG owns the property, unless they default. Further, AIG created the Preferred, gave it the power to vote as equivalent of 79.9% of the company (the number doesn't matter, it's 79.9% no matter what) and placed it in trust, and then was and is required to turn around and grant the effective voting proxy for those shares back to AIG. Those shares either vote the same way as the winner in a vote conducted amoung the owners of the common stock, or AIG management votes it as 80% of shares. I think it's the latter but I'm not sure. (If AIG management controls, for voting purposes, 80% 50% of the common equities, either becuse someone gave management the proxies, or they just like the way management's butts smell, there's no effective difference.)

The 03/04/2009 8-K filing is here and it says:

Item 3.02. Unregistered Sales of Equity Securities. On March 4, 2009, American International Group, Inc. (AIG) issued and sold to the AIG Credit Facility Trust (the Trust), a trust established for the sole benefit of the United States Treasury, 100,000 shares of AIG's Series C Perpetual, Convertible, Participating Preferred Stock, par value $5.00 per share and an initial liquidation preference of $5.00 per share (the Series C Preferred Stock), for an aggregate purchase price of $500,000 (the Transaction), with an understanding that additional and independently sufficient consideration was also furnished to AIG by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (the FRBNY) in the form of its lending commitment (the Credit Facility) under the Credit Agreement, dated as of September 22, 2008, between AIG and the FRBNY. The issuance and sale of the Series C Preferred Stock was exempt from registration under the Securities Act of 1933 pursuant to Section 4(2) of the Securities Act of 1933.
Item 3.03. Material Modification to Rights of Security Holders. The holders of the Series C Preferred Stock have preferential liquidation rights over the holders of AIG's common stock, par value $2.50 per share, and, to the extent permitted by law, vote with AIG's common stock on all matters submitted to AIG's shareholders. The holders of the Series C Preferred Stock have approximately 77.9 percent of the aggregate voting power of AIG's common stock and are entitled to approximately 77.9 percent of all dividends paid on AIG's common stock, in each case treating the Series C Preferred Stock as if converted. The Series C Preferred Stock will remain outstanding even if the Credit Facility is repaid in full or otherwise terminates. The Series C Perpetual, Convertible, Participating Preferred Stock Purchase Agreement, dated as of March 1, 2009 (the Purchase Agreement), between AIG and the Trust restricts AIG's ability to issue or grant capital stock without the consent of the Trust, with certain limited exclusions. The applicable terms and preferences attached to the Series C Preferred Stock and the restrictions imposed by the Purchase Agreement are more fully described in AIG's Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2008 (the Annual Report). The form of Certificate of Designations of the Series C Preferred Stock and the Purchase Agreement are incorporated into this Current Report on Form 8-K by reference to Exhibits 3.I.F and 10.91, respectively, of the Annual Report.

Whether they issued new preferred or not, it all goes into the same pile, which is controlled by the Trust, and all of that stock is governed under section 9 of the Pledge Agreement above. The dilution from 79.9% to 77.9% is from the November bailout, which was supposed to give the Treasury 2% of all stock. The advertised it as USG ownership going from 79.9% to 81.9% but what appears to have actually happened was that that 2% got shifted out of the Trust and directly into the control of the Treasury.

The 03/04 8-K did not cough up the contract though. That was the 03/11/2009 8-K here with the actual contract here.

I'm not going to quote because that fucker is even more obtuse and opaque than the original credit agreement. However, while it appears that they're issuing new preferred, it also appears that this contract doesn't alter section 9 of the 9/22 contract. Except possibly section 6.2 on page 6. Fuck. Nearly inpenetrable:

6.2. Shareholder Vote.
(a) The Trust shall have the right, in its sole discretion, by giving a notice in accordance with Section 8.3, to cause the Board of Directors, without regard to any subsequent determination made by the Board of Directors concerning the Special Meeting Shareholder Proposals, to call, give notice of and hold a special meeting of the holders of the Company's capital stock or, if so elected by the Trust in the notice from the Trust, direct that the Special Meeting Shareholder Proposals be considered at the next annual meeting of the holders of the Company's capital stock following such notice from the Trust, as applicable (provided, that the notice for a special meeting or annual meeting described in this clause (a) shall not be given until at least 60 days after the Company's 2009 Annual Meeting of Shareholders), with the holders of the Common Stock voting as a separate class in the case of the Common Stock Amendment Proposal and, if applicable, the holders of the Company's Serial Preferred Stock voting as a separate class in the case of the Serial Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal and, if applicable, the holders of the Series C Preferred Stock voting as a separate class in the case of the Series C Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal, to vote on, among other things, (i) the Common Stock Amendment Proposal, (ii) Serial Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal and (iii) the Series C Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal; provided, that a vote on the Serial Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal and the Series C Preferred Stock Amendment Proposal will only be effective if the Common Stock Amendment Proposal is not approved by the holders of the Common Stock. The Board of Directors shall recommend to the Company's shareholders that they vote in favor of the Special Meeting Shareholder Proposals. In the event that the approval of all or any portion of the Special Meeting Shareholder Proposals is not obtained at such special shareholders' meeting, the Trust shall have the right to direct the Company to include a proposal to approve (and the Board of Directors shall recommend approval of) all or such portion of the Special Meeting Shareholder Proposals as the Trust may designate at the next annual meeting of its shareholders and at each subsequent annual meeting of its shareholders until such approval is obtained.

It appears that the Trust can force a vote (presumably for a buyout proposal), but it doesn't appear that the contract alterations allows the Trust to vote the equities. The AIG board has 45 days (from 3/11/09) to approve this agreement, and I don't think they have yet.
Meanwhile, Barney Frank says:
The U.S. government apparently added "covenants" to its deal with AIG to cede some of its rights as the majority owner of the company, Frank said, adding in plain English: "It's time to act as the owner." Frank declined to elaborate further on the nature of the limits that were set "restraining [the government's] influence" over AIG, but he said he'd be taking the issue up further with the Obama administration later today.

max
['So. Groovy excitment.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 7:44 PM
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I realize the Douthat horse up and died a while back, but IOZ had a good bit that somehow the brain trust here never lit upon.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03-17-09 8:29 PM
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I hereby decree that the earlier D.C. meet-up will be on Saturday, March 28th, since it means will can be there and fedward can be there before the rest of us are so drunk we won't be able to recall what he looks like.

Solly's or Saint-Ex might work. Or isn't there a new-ish 80-gazillion beer place somewhere, maybe at Gallery Place?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-19-09 6:39 PM
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You thinking of R.F.D.?


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-19-09 7:05 PM
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I direct all potential attendees back to the main post for updates of these upcoming and exciting events.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-20-09 12:08 AM
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421: Comity! Since it's Saturday rather than Friday, I can try to come early and snag a table. What time are we thinking of for agglomeration - 6? 7?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-21-09 6:13 AM
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So where is 3.1? 3.2 is Solly's?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-21-09 6:40 AM
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Given the choice between R.F.D. and Saint Ex, I'd probably pick Saint Ex. I used to love R.F.D. and defend it when people talked about the horrible service they got there, but then I got the same horrible service a few times in a row. Plus I hear that they've painted over the quotations in the bathrooms ("You're not drunk if you can lie on the ground without holding on" - Dean Martin, I think). Plus R.F.D. has the same problem as Brickskeller in that the menu claims a very large number of beers but on any given night they're out of most of them.

R.F.D. has the distinct advantage of being half a block from the Metro, though. Anybody else have an opinion?


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-21-09 9:07 AM
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RFD and Brickskeller are owned or run by the same group. I vote for St-Ex as well.

I can make it to the 3/28 thing on time, but I'll be late for the 4/3 shindig.


Posted by: Frostbite | Link to this comment | 03-23-09 6:02 PM
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The groundswell for Saint-Ex is good enough for me for 3/28. I checked some reviews for RFD, and crappy service does seem to be the reigning theme.

What time are we thinking of for agglomeration - 6? 7?

I'm completely flexible on time.

Cafe St-Ex
www.saint-ex.com
1847 14th St NW (corner of 14th & T)

Attendees AFAIK:

fedward
eb
Minivet
Frostbite
togolosh
will
CharleyCarp?
possibly PGD
Sir Kraab


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-23-09 6:17 PM
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I'm in.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03-23-09 6:38 PM
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Cool.

If folks who are planning to come on the 28th want my cell number to avoid any wacky sitcom mix-ups, e-mail me at mypseud at gee mail.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-23-09 6:58 PM
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Having learned of a long-time friend's death tonight, I suspect I will in fact be drinking quite heavily and thus be even more colorful than might otherwise be normal for me.

Sir Kraab: you'll have email from my pseud at that same email service once I'm sober enough to remember to send it. Or you could just email me instead in case I forget on account of tonight's sorrow-drowning.


Posted by: fedward | Link to this comment | 03-24-09 10:16 PM
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sorry fedward :(


Posted by: Cecily | Link to this comment | 03-24-09 10:24 PM
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So sorry, fedward.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-25-09 7:19 AM
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It is on the 28th now after all? I didnt realize that. hmmmm I'll need to see what I can do.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03-25-09 7:35 AM
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434: Yeah, I posted it in a couple of places, but sorry to missed you.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-25-09 8:12 AM
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