One of the best things about intelligent rappers is when they talk about politics. It's always some totally idiosyncratic set of opinions.
And now we know which one, teo.
Jesus was totally punk, Stanley. He would be totally down with three chords and bleeding ears.
Jesus was totally punk, Stanley. He would be totally down with three chords and bleeding ears.
Or so the megachurches would have you believe.
He got hisself crucified, Stanley, which is so much more awesome than magic-marker 'X's on the backs of one's hands. Of course the overlap between punk and straight-edge isn't perfect, but it is close enough.
7: I was funnin'. The Jesus-as-a-subversive-revolutionary-figure thing I'm familiar with. Where that position connects to the politics of current conservative Christians, I don't so much get.
Oh. Well. Fuck those guys with a cross.
Jesus was not straight edge, for sure. He brought wine to parties. (Although a friend of mine who was raised teetotaling fundamentalist tells me that he was taught that Jesus busted out grape juice at Cena.)
Well, his incredibly poor rapping may up the awkwardness angle. Can't really say I know of a better conservative rapper, but he's at about the same level as the early 90s PSA "rappers" who hadn't quite figured out the hippity-hop that all the kids seemed to like, but how hard can it really be to talk along with a beat?
Speaking of political rap, I've been listening to Liquid Swords a lot lately, and have absolutely loved the line in "4th Chamber" that comes at 4:04 in this clip:
"Camouflage chameleon / Ninjas scalin' your buildin' / No time to grab the gun / They already got your wife and children / A hit was sent / From the President / To raid your residence / Because you had secret evidence / and documents / On how they raped the continents"
I just learned that verse was by The RZA. Huh, never knew the guy had any MCing chops.
Certainly not! I meant the overlap between punk and straight edge.
Jesus knew better than to abjure either wine or whores.
||
Where Are The Liberal Economists?
I left academia for a variety of reasons, but one of them was the fact that more people read my shitty blog in about the first 3 weeks than would ever read any of my academic papers. And a related reason was that I thought the culture of the profession, at least in this country, worked against outspoken liberals. In my experience (this is anecdote, not survey), the majority of economists I knew were Democrats, if not especially liberal ones, but still they were generally more comfortable with economist public intellectuals who were right wing cranks than they were with left wing public intellectuals. Paul Krugman is shrill and whatnot.
Anyway, the point is... The Left needs more "respectable" economists who are willing to put themselves out there in public discourse space. You know, blogging, op-ed pieces, radio, teevee, etc. I was asked recently to list them and I didn't come up with many. Stand up and be heard!
|>
11: I always loved that water to wine was the first miracle -- priorities!
but he's at about the same level as the early 90s PSA "rappers" who hadn't quite figured out the hippity-hop that all the kids seemed to like, but how hard can it really be to talk along with a beat?
You mean like this incredibly awkward attempt to sell MS DOS upgrades throught he medium of rap?
There are still British comedians making jokes about all that "hippityhop" the kids seem to like even though at this stage the music's older than they are.
Although a friend of mine who was raised teetotaling fundamentalist tells me that he was taught that Jesus busted out grape juice at Cena.
This belief seemed to be widespread among my Baptist-raised grade school classmates. Even at that age, I was able to sow doubts about the plausibility of unrefrigerated grape juice remaining unfermented in the heat of the Holy Land.
The delicious irony was that the same preachers who ordinarily scoffed at non-literal interpretations of the Holy Scripture would unselfconciously offer up hair-splitting explanations about how New Testament Greek didn't differentiate between wine and grape juice, so one couldn't really say...
As far as I know, fundamentalists only reject non-literalism intended to harmonize the Bible with modernity and science. All of the Armageddonist readings are fearsomely unliteral. All the prophecies of the birth of Christ are. The list goes on.
There are still British comedians making jokes about all that "hippityhop" the kids seem to like even though at this stage the music's older than they are.
Really? Who? Because you are just as likely to see comedians making in-jokes about the Wutang Clan, ime.
[Or are you thinking of comedians who seem permanently stuck in about 1985 -- the Harry Enfields, et al.]
Putting aside that that I am only first hearing about about these guys via the NY Times, I do find this story of the three Hackney brothers and their early 1970s band "Death" quite interesting. Some might dismiss it as just yet another "three black teenaged brothers in Detroit switch from R&B to rock after hearing an Alice Cooper show, develop a hard-driven proto-punk sound, release a few records under a self-defeating name, don't really get anywhere with it, move to Burlington, Vermont, do gospel rock and then reggae, and then get re-discovered long via chance and collectors of obscure records" story, but they'd be wrong. Worth a read and a listen.
"Death" is a self-defeating name? Isn't it a genre?
In any case, the interview dude trying to bob his head along around minute 1:50? That part's pretty great.
I suspect Max Blumenthal was attempting to convey mockery given his body of work at CPACs past and present. I highly doubt that he was simply swept up in the moment.
21: Now. Not then. Read the article.
Michigan is the place in the US where the whitest white people (Finns, Dutch, Yoopers) are most likely to come into contact with really very black black people. (The South dosn't count because the encounter is so heavily coded after four centuries). A lot of the music coming out of there is pretty intense. These guys are sort of the reflex of Iggy Pop.
19 - Really? Who? was my reaction too.
Though I have reached the age where I am now enjoying making silly comments about "what the kids on the street like" just to see my girls cringe.
12 - I was listening to Liquid Swords yesterday! GZA really is genius.
21 - Is Death really a self-defeating name? Crime and Fear were only a couple years later. (Maybe it's just that they were a smidge early. Or maybe Rock City only liked normal names like "the Motor City Five" and "Frost" and "Up" and some group of weenies called "the Psychedelic Stooges".)
Is this the new swp hop thread? Because if so, I want to, um, what is it they say, oh yeah, send some props out to Abercrom B and L.L. Bean J.
26.2 Yeah, maybe it wasn't deadly, but I do think it was a just a bit prematurely in-your-face for the route they were attempting—radio in Detroit.
'Everyone serves the good grape juice first, and then the inferior grape juice after the guests have become drunk uh, sleepy. But you have kept the good grape juice until now.'
While I'm thinking of it, here's a video of Fear's performance on Saturday Night Live (which Belushi apparently strong-armed the show into).
26: Rock City
I've not watched any, but my kids seem to find Detroit Metal City hilarious.
"Really? Who?"
Well, Stewart Lee did a skit about "the rap singers these days" on BBC 2 just last night. Although, to be fair, it was very much a super-extended riff in the vein of "silly comments about 'what the kids on the street like' just to see my girls cringe". It also led into a pretty funny discussion of Asher D's "book".
The South dosn't count because the encounter is so heavily coded after four centuries
I'm not sure how to interpret this statement. After four centuries living in close contact, whitey white culture down here is pretty heavily influenced by / mixed with black culture, and a lot of things people consider "black" around the rest of the country are just generically southern.
For instance, in the South, whites eat watermelon and fried chicken. It's weird, but you get used to it after awhile.
Slacktivist made the definitive statement on the Cana beverage issue here (a few scrolls down).
[B]ecause what's a wedding feast without at least 30 gallons of nonalcoholic grape juice?
34: "Now Muscle Shoals has got the Swampers / And they've been known to pick a song or two." == "Southerners are naturally rhythmic"?
(Although a friend of mine who was raised teetotaling fundamentalist tells me that he was taught that Jesus busted out grape juice at Cena.)
This is widely attested.
Remember, folks, evolution can't be true, because a literal reading of the Bible says it happened otherwise. We can't stray from the literal words of the Bible, you know.
In case you weren't sure the conservative rapper was lame, the contrast with the link in in 12 cinches it.
I'm not sure how to interpret this statement.
As I read it, the point is that, in Michigan, it is/was interaction between two mutually unintelligible cultures, as opposed to the South, where it is as you describe - close cousin cultures that don't always get along (to say the least).
I always wonder about that biggest verse of the big: John 3:16. Really, you have to be born again? Literally? Have you?
I heard recently the following recently: The difference between northern racism and southern racism is that in the north, white people say 'I don't care what you do, just don't do it around me' and in the south, white people care very much about policing what black people do, but the races aren't squicked out by intermingling constantly.
The person before me had lost the pithy phrasing, so don't blame me for that.
The pithy phrasing was in this NYT article about Dick Gregory:
"Down South they don't care how close I am as long as I don't get too big, and up North they don't care how big I am as long as I don't get too close."
Oooh yes, that is much pithier.
as long as I don't get too big
The version I always heard used "uppity".
Really, you have to be born again?
The born again part isn't John 3:16. It's John 3:3.
If I had to rank the pith, I would put 'big' slightly ahead of 'uppity' and then the long version in 42 would trail a distant third.
"recently the following recently" is kind of catchy, though.
Damn, I guess I ought to learn the chapter and verse before I go spouting it. Thanks for setting me upon the path of righteousness, Apo.
As I walk through the valley where I harvest my grain, I take a look at my wife and realize she's very plain.
All that Sunday School had to be good for something eventually.
Also, Nicodemus already asked your question:
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
re: 47
No! Uppity is much snappier than 'big'.
I was listening to Liquid Swords yesterday! GZA really is genius.
This is my running music about one out of three times. The title track can pick my dead body up off the floor and make it go on for another three minutes.
No! Uppity is much snappier than 'big'.
I think that in this case, 'big' is being used with a very particular meaning, and 'uppity' makes it explicit, and hence less pithy.
54: Because you're scared of black men? Racist.
Damn, even Jesus answered my objection? I lamely point out that he seems pretty metaphorical about it.
Sheesh. I guess I'd better leave the casuistry to the Jesuits.
55: The version I know of the aphorism is "high," rather than "big" or "uppity."
58: Yes, but how do we interpret being "spiritually born again" literally? Does it involve traveling out a spiritual vagina? Are there spiritual breech births?
Hmm. Is it pithier for racism to operate based on drug use or perceived arrogance? I have to say perceived arrogance, and thus rank the versions:
1. big
2. uppity
3. high
4. rambling version from 42
Dick Gregory may have stolen that phrase from you, LB, but I think he improved it.
62: Well, it was very confusing when LB said that up north they don't care how high she gets, as long as she doesn't get too close. At least with Dick Gregory it makes sense.
42,43,55,59: Am going to dangerously generalize here, but my experiences in the late 70s/early 80s of moving Ohio->Houston->Pittsburgh->Houston->Pittsburgh->Houston with some significant time also spent in Chapel Hill NC during that period brought home to me the general aptness of the aphorism. And to invite more trouble, I find Pittsburgh and environs tends to have the honkiest honkies this side of Duluth.
Does it involve traveling out a spiritual vagina?
There are spiritual C-sections.
64 is much less pithy than any earlier versions of the aphorism.
Today's Mad Lib:
Ain't no honky like a P'burgh honky cause a P'burgh honky don't _______.
how do we interpret being "spiritually born again" literally?
And how are eye babies classified?
Speaking of being too high, I encountered someone over the weekend who declined to do mushrooms because, she said, "They're really animals." Has anyone else ever heard someone say this or do you suppose it's just random nuttiness from a stoned vegan?
(Also: Sacha Baron Cohen punks Ron Paul.)
ben's momma's so honky, she aint that honky.
71: Tell her that if she really objects to hurting any fungi, she better hope she never gets athlete's foot or thrush. Dry those toes well!
KR in 17: In fact, my friend who told me about the "grape juice" was from your fair homestate, where his father was both preacher and mayor of some teeny town.
It appears to be somewhat common. That's really, really stupid.
Judging from the links on that page, what's common is vegans explaining to non-vegans that of course they eat mushrooms.
'Everyone serves the good grape juice first, and then the inferior grape juice after the guests have become drunk uh, sleepy. But you have kept the good grape juice until now.'
The Bible is rife with useful tips on how to throw a good party.
33.: What I should have said is that Southern whites have been around blacks for so long that they aren't really white any more. But Yoopers and people from Grand Rapids, are some of the the whitest people in the world...... and then they move to Detroit.
"Mushrooms are technically animals (they are a fungus)"
Thanks, answers.yahoo.com. Where do people learn this idea? Even Linnaeus thought fungi were plants. Haeckel grouped them with protozoans, algae and bacteria. Animals? WTF?
And who is that explanation for? "Oh yeah, I know fungi are animals, but I had no idea mushrooms were fungi. I'll stop eating them posthaste."
75: It makes a certain amount of sense to me (not in that it's correct, but I can follow the reasoning). Someone took a bio class that at some point split living things into 'things that photosynthesize and things that don't', and our vegan hero decided that meant that things that don't photosynthesize are 'really' animals.
I'M A REAL ANIMAL!!!!
LAYDEEEEZ!!!!!!!!!
'Kipedia say: "Even though traditionally included in many botany curricula and textbooks, fungi are now thought to be more closely related to animals than to plants and are placed with the animals in the monophyletic group of opisthokonts." Still stupid if you read the rest of the article; they're a separate kingdom with some features of plants and some of animals.
81: WELL, I'M AN ANIMAL WHERE IT COUNTS, ANYWAY!!!!
Hm. I wasn't aware that this was even a question among vegans. Apparently, Jains won't do mushrooms, either.
83: I was recently reminded that strict Jains also don't do root vegetables, and have complicated rules about seeds as well.
Speaking of honkies in Pittsburgh, I just finished watching the prog rock docu you linked the other day, JP. Now where's that damn prog rock Pandora station of yours?
42 pounds of edible fungus. 50 unfbucks for the first to identify the reference.
Oy; children's book, I think with a donut machine, and they named the town Edible Fungus. But I can't get the name.
81, etc.: It's pretty clear to me that, once you're at the kingdom level, "shares some characteristics of" can't be made to do the work that mushroom avoiders would have it do. Bacteria are a fuckload more animalian than mushrooms (by any popular sense).
Manuls, OTOH, strike me Jesus, did I come close to some really pathetic pwnage.
Phew.
Jains, vegans, and Death-eaters do not eat manuls because they are opisthokonts.
91: Think classical. Uncle Telemachus is one character.
Manuls
Not to be confused with the Manimal.
94: I couldn't take it and googled; Homer Price. I should have remembered -- I liked it as a kid, and Newt just brought it home from school a couple of months ago, causing me to see the cover and yelp "Edible Fungus!" much to his dismay and confusion.
Luke 5:37-39:
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.The KJV says 'bottles'; other translations, of course, say 'wineskins,' the point being that old skins would burst because of the fermentation. And we know that fundamentalists believe in fermentation; they wouldn't fear it so much if they didn't. To argue that the NT doesn't explicitly refer to wine takes great powers of denial.
three black teenaged brothers...move to Burlington, Vermont
And double the state's African-American population.
Abercrom B and L.L. Bean J
J and the Crew, yo.
84: The jain are panpsychists who ultimately believe that all karma is bad karma. There really isn't a way to translate their dietary rules to a Western science-based system concerned mostly with harm to individuals.
96: There is a lesser known sequel, Centerburg Tales (Edible Fungus renamed to Centerburg at some point).
"Forty two pounds of edible fungus
in the wilderness a growin'
saved the settlers from starvation
helped the founding of this nation
forty two pounds of edible fungus
in the wilderness a growin'"
J and the Crew, yo.
Nope: 2 J Crew.
Hit Single: Me So Honky
Money quote:
Moreover, while humans and most species are divided into only two sexes, mushrooms contain over 36,000 sexes.
101: I don't believe it either. That's got to be some kind of wiki problem, or maybe auto-fill from the Dow 36000 book.
COURSE I GOT SOUL, BABY!!!!!
"I chose Schizophyllum commune as the fungus of the month-- since it is known to have more than 28,000 distinct sexes. [...] It's a very successful wood decay fungus that causes a white rot. Interestingly, this fungus has also been known to cause a human mycosis in just a few cases involving immunoincompetent people, especially children. In one case, the fungus had grown through the soft palate of a child's mouth and was actually forming fruiting bodies (mushrooms) in her sinuses."
re: 103
I can't even make sense of what sense the word 'sex' is being used that leads to there being 36,000 of them.
In one case, the fungus had grown through the soft palate of a child's mouth and was actually forming fruiting bodies (mushrooms) in her sinuses."
Eeeewwww!!!!
The link in 81 is making me really happy. Time to start looking for opportunities to say, scornfully, "I'm sorry, I don't eat opisthokonts".
So, essear, would you like some nice opisthokonts for lunch?
106: Sexist.
Me? I don't even see sexes.
I'm trying to work out the morality of eating Chromalveolates.
105: How do we know that Apo didn't write that page? The webpage style is about what you'd expect from him. Also, he's confusing sex and gender, and making no allowance for S. commune individuals of one ggender trapped in the body of a different gender.
84: I think rastafarians avoid root vegetables, as well -- anything where harvesting the veggie=killing the plant.
112: It's cruel and wrong. You should stop it immediately.
114: So I guess potatoes are okay then. That's good.
How do we know that Apo didn't write that page?
I have neither the patience nor the funding to get a PhD.
117: You've got a PhD where it counts, apo.
Or so I've been told.
117: "patience" s/b "attention span"
I think Vegans should avoid harming bacteria, for consistency.
121: Be sure and tell all the vegans you meet that, Sifu. For their own good.
Like there are any vegans left who will speak to me.
123: But I'm asking you to speak to them.
Can't get close enough. Known by my gait.
In one case, the fungus had grown through the soft palate of a child's mouth and was actually forming fruiting bodies (mushrooms) in her sinuses.
This would, literally, drive AB insane. Or to suicide.
129: I'm sure a 15 or 20 minute phonecall from a non-twisted, non-selfish friend would fix things right up.
the fungus had grown through the soft palate of a child's mouth
That's what happens when you leave a kid in a humid car.
131: Parents should have bought mirrors.
132: They did, but they were steamed up.
133: They should have bought those "Shave in the Shower!" kind that are steam free, but they didn't. What monsters!
When a kid gets moldy it's really hard to do much about it except get a new kid.
I plan on packing my baby in silicon dessicating bags and moth balls before we get in the car. To be safe.
136: With my immigrant upbringing I've always been taught to just cut out the moldy parts and the rest will still be good.
Chanced upon this --http://rebelfrequencies.blogspot.com/2009/03/tiocfaidh-ar-la-motherfuckers.html -- which seemed relevant to the long-forgotten original topic of this post.
Not only further proof that Hip-Hop engulfed the globe long ago, but that its natural instinct is toward freedom and equality, no matter who picks up on it.
I bet Btock would just eat the baby, mold and all. Cause, you know, it's just like blue cheese.
The greatest election ever: 1936, Minnesota's Eighth Congressional District (which later on was Bob Dylan's district). The moderate Democratic candidate was a Communist, and he defeated both the extremist Democrat and the incumbent Republican to become the district's representative in Congress.
I bet Btock would just eat the baby, mold and all.
Unless he's a vegan, in which case he'd have to spit out the mushrooms.
I don't know what you awful people are talking about, the baby went to nice farm where it can run through the pastures chasing rabbits and birdies.
My freshman year contained about 36,000 sexes, but that's neither here nor there.
The first vegan I met very efficiently ran through the amendments she needed made to a spinach salad, which the waiter and kitchen were perfectly happy to oblige. A friend, who had also never encountered such practices - this was 1992 and we were hicks - asked her why she lived by such restrictions and she explained that it was largely due to the cruelty of industrialized agriculture. We both agreed that this seemed reasonable enough, and neither of us were of a mind to give her shit about it anyway, but the friend of mine - who had grown up in a rural environment, herself, and counted fresh non-vegan foods amongst her greatest pleasures - asked, "So, if you, like, bought a cow of your own, and you were nice to it, would you eventually eat it?"
"Oh, yes," our new vegan friend said, not just with honest enthusiasm but with active relish. She had a big smile when she said it.
143: This doesn't sound like the vegans I've known.
Some of them might admit that they would eat milk products from a cow they took care of, but I couldn't imagine them relishing the possibility of killing and eating an animal under any circumstance.
Fungi may have 36,000 sexes, but how many fellatio do they have? Hmm?
I am going to have nightmares about mushrooms in my mouth. Oh God, that's disgusting.
||
So remember during the Repub. Nat'l Convention when I mentioned the 5-year-old kid who had been at the scene of two police raids?
He was run over by a school bus a couple of weeks ago. It sounds like he'll live, thankfully, but it's still so awful.
||>
146: "Many fungi, like Schizophyllum, don't even have differentiated sex organs! Wherever they touch they can exchange nuclei."
You know how an orange changes color overnight and gets so mushy that you can stick a finger through it without resistance? That rarely happens to people.
Incidentally, John Raper is my academic great grandfather-- I got my Ph.D. from Tom Leonard at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (he's now at Clark University), who got his Ph.D. from Stanley Dick at Indiana University, who got his Ph.D. from John Raper at Harvard.
The only paper in Pubmed by Dick and Raper is "Origin of expressed mutations in Schizophyllum commune." (1961, Nature 189:81-82)
Read all about the incident mentioned in #108 here.
Seriously, Ned, got any pictures of grievously wounded kittens for us?
I am going to have nightmares about mushrooms in my mouth.
No, silly, in your sinus cavity. Eventually they could grow out your nose, I guess.
And then you do an air hankie over a plate of arborio and, voilà, risotto con funghi.
Okay, that was gross.
the other day i was eating a cup noodle, very hot with chili and got some like cough run b/c of the chili
bits of noodles stuck up my nose and i tried to get them out every possible way and couldn't
had to go like that until the evening, when my nose produced enough mucus to slip the noodle bit out
i thought that's how sinusitis begin
When inserting noodles in your nose, make sure you choose pasta with a flared base.
but I couldn't imagine them relishing the possibility of killing and eating an animal under any circumstance
Does my anecdata, which might possibly reflect sarcasm on that long-ago acquaintance's part, outweigh your failure of imagination? I'm afraid it's a mystery for the ages.
ohlifobol's gonna kick your ass, Lobo.
If that is your real name.
153: You know, if my name was Raper, I'd change it. No offense to the proud Raper family and all that, but fuck screw to hell with them, there's no reason one of them couldn't have changed it before I came along.
155, 156: Actually, the linked article isn't that bad. Especially since there are no pictures. (There were thumbnails but they didn't look like much of anything, and I didn't enlarge them to see.) If it weren't for apo explaining upthread that "fruiting bodies" = mushrooms, the whole thing doesn't seem any worse than any other discussion of a disease.
161: I'm sorry, Robust, did I misunderstand? Was the vegan in your story being sarcastic?
Also, I didn't mean to suggest that your story was not true. I didn't say that I couldn't imagine any vegan saying that -- just the vegans I have known.
Also, are you actually irritated, or am I misreading you again?
My apologies, peep. I'm irritable today for reasons having nothing to do with you or Unfogged or the internet in general. That said, I wasn't irritated with you, just amused by what I misread as a declaration that no vegan would ever say yes to that question. She certainly seemed sincere, but honestly I've no idea whether she meant it. She never bought a cow and ate it, anyway.
And I am quite sincere in my apology to you; it's been a long week already and it's only Tuesday.
143, 144: There are vegans who will eat roadkill. Well, or at least defend it as ethically sound for eatings.
Especially naturally aged roadkill.
I only eat roadkill that's been individually-pressed by a foot-powered transport.
Bikekill, IOW.
171: Or trikekill? Or does the child labor aspect ruin it for you?
which might possibly reflect sarcasm confusion about the meaning of "vegan" on that long-ago acquaintance's part,
There are plenty of pure vegetarians who aren't vegans, after all.
173: They lack the mens rea to be vegans.
I think.
176: Yes, all that circling shows a little too much intention.
They lack the mens rea to be vegans.
Some vultures have balls.
167,168: Thanks, Robust, and no apology necessary.
You know, I think this blog has gotten more hilarious since Ogged's ceaseless feminist-baiting stopped. Back to the old days of whimsy.
There are plenty of pure vegetarians who aren't vegans, after all.
Yes, there are, but she also had them remove the cheese, the dairy-based dressing and the eggs.
Anybody else want to tell the story for me? I've got nothing but time.
At any rate, she did explain to us that "vegan" meant no animal products whatsoever, not just no meat, and then she tucked into a big bowl of spinach and red onion. They did give her extra spinach to make up for all the stuff she had them not include in her "salad," which I thought was pretty keen of them.
Yes, there are, but she also had them remove the cheese, the dairy-based dressing and the eggs.
right, pure vegetarian. not the same thing, since veganism isn't a diet.
it doesn't matter though. all these terms have become pretty useless, if they ever weren't.
I've never heard of "pure vegetarian" as distinct from "vegan" before -- what's the distinction?
I've never heard of this distinction before either.
I'm guessing from context that A.P.'s "pure vegetarian" is what most people use "vegan" for -- someone who in practice eats no animal products -- and that "vegan" means, or once meant, someone who's a member of some more specific cultural movement requiring a "pure vegetarian" diet, but I've never heard of the history A.P. seems to be referring to by making the distinction.
That was my impression as well from the context.
So a "pure vegetarian" might wear leather shoes, for instance, whereas a vegan would not?
186: I've never heard of "pure vegetarian" as distinct from "vegan" before -- what's the distinction?
"I eat purer".
the "pure" prefix probably only has currency in certain circles.
the term veganism was created by people who were frustrated with the dilution of the the term vegetarian, for much the reasons arising here.
At any rate, veganism is a choice of lifestyle that goes well beyond diet. If you profess it you are properly professing at least a serious effort to live your life to the exclusion of all animal products. This means not eating them directly (meat), or there products (milk, honey) sure --- but also no leather goods, no products using glues or gelatins with animal sources, etc. It effectively cuts you off from the majority of modern consumer and industrial production. Which also means a large number of people who self-identify as "vegan" are full of it, but life was ever thus.
So in some circles that follow this stuff, vegetarianism is a constraint of diet, veganism is a constraint of lifestyle, and the awkward term "pure vegetarian" is used to disassociate from the huge number of people who say "vegetarian" but mean something like "I don't eat red meat"
JUST TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO BE TO BE ABLE TO EAT THIS DELICIOUS TRIKEKILL
Seems to me that the vegans are free-riding on the labor of the spiders.
Aren't we all, JRoth?
As far as all this goes, I suppose I view vegans the same way I view Jains or old order Mennonites; looks a bit dotty from the outside but these are people making a serious effort to live by a code of practice that it's hard to find much objectionable with. All the power to them to go off and quietly do their thing and leave me to mine.
The real practical difference is that at the time and place I live at least, you rarely find someone who is confusing themselves about whether or not they are an old order Mennonite, and just showing up one day in a horse drawn cart. Likewise aggressively evangelizing Jain principles or whatnot.
Is this the new swp hop thread? Because if so, I want to, um, what is it they say, oh yeah, send some props out to Abercrom B and L.L. Bean J.
Also...
Emenay
Dr. ATE
Puff Daddy's Cuban Cigars
Public Subsidy
Figgaz wit Aptitude (featuring EZ-A)
...Not to forget...
X-Settah
I.V.Leeg
7 Sistahz
Leg A.C.
Prestigious N-Turn
3-L Supreme Clerk
Phat C.V.
Starting C.O.M.P., featuring 6-Figga Package and Leest Benz
the awkward term "pure vegetarian" is used to disassociate from the huge number of people who say "vegetarian" but mean something like "I don't eat red meat"
Is it used in your experience to mean "I don't eat animal products" or "I don't eat animal, and actually, yes, that includes fish"?
193: If you were truly opinionated, you'd tell US who you are to eat that delicious trikekill.
171: I only eat roadkill that's been individually-pressed by a foot-powered transport.
On cobblestones.
It annoys me when vegans advocate their diet on health grounds. First, the strictest vegan diet is unhealthy (lack of B12). Second, even if a vegan got enough B12 somehow, vegan diets have to be very carefully planned in order to get all other necessary nutrients, and they aren't always. Third, vegans don't usually seem to be anywhere near as strict about other health practices as they are about veganism. And last, as a group vegans don't seem to be more healthy than average.
So I think of it as a kind of self-purification, ritual group practice, or asceticism, which isn't exactly awful, but isn't a health practice. And then, special diets tend to be so schismogenetic that they end up defining unique individuals rather than Amish-like groups.
To my knowledge, the ideally healthy diet for someone wanting to be in the health sweepstakes includes only rather small amounts of animal products of any kind. But it isn't vegan.
First, the strictest vegan diet is unhealthy (lack of B12)
I agree with your general point, but the above is somewhat misleading and often repeated. No animal can produce B12, nor can any plant, it is created only by bacteriological action on the surface of plants.
As a result, we living in "the West" typically have a problem getting enough dietary B12, but it's not because meat is the natural source, it's because we typically wash our vegetables too much (to oversimplify). So this has nothing to do with vegan diets exactly, so much as vegan diets as practiced in the western grocery store tradition. We don't need much B12 though, so it's easy to get from meats if the animals have fed on less processed food. Particularly if we eat a lot of meats and meat products, they don't even have to be getting a sufficient supply. That, and supplements/fortification.
Your latter point I would rework as the *easiest* healthy diet is a very broadly based one including small amounts of animal products. The more constrained your diet is, the more you have to work at it. On the flip side though, many (most?) of us in practice eat a fairly constrained diet.
199: By high heels. There used to be a website for that.
My vegetarianish dietary restrictions allow fish, but not gelatin.
I only eat gelatinous foods. Kosher marshallows, bacon fat, marrow, tendon, tapioca balls, lime Jell-o, this terrific Agar recipe I have. It's a good life, really.
Fish gelatin works for me. I just bought a lot of Agar at the Thai grocery, so if you have a terrific recipe, please pass it on. But I doubt you, Beefo Meaty. I doubt you.
Wow, just like mom used to make it.
tapioca balls
I first read this with a comma that isn't there.
207: I knew someone who described himself as a dietary lipophobe, and while it was just a bit pretentious, I sympathized.
No animal can produce B12, nor can any plant, it is created only by bacteriological action on the surface of plants.
As I recall, the primary source for B12 for ruminants is fermentation in the gut.
212:
Andy Stitzer: You know how when you suck on a guy's balls... they feel like... gelatin.
David: What?
Liquid Swords one of my all time favorite albums. Probably the majority of song lyrics I can recite from memory is the first two thirds of Liquid Swords.
i am slightly older than stewart lee but he increasingly reminds me of my grandad (since he chunked up he looks like him; and his riffs are beginning to sound like him, funny but a bit too bombastic in his convictions even when you agree with him and very convinced indeed of his own high intelligence)
