Re: I'll buy some indulgences for you.

1

We once spent a very nice afternoon with my wife's former college roommate and her new husband, who are extremely religious, and on the way out the door they asked us earnestly, "What can we pray for you?" I still think it's kind of weird, but I suppose it's sort of a politer version of "you're in my prayers" because it doesn't necessarily make presumptions about the content of said prayers.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:15 AM
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Some people make lists of people to pray for and the specific things each person on the list needs help with. There were a few at my parent's church, including a lady with a two page daily prayer list. Each day she'd go down the list to remind the omnipotent creator what his priorities ought to be.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:26 AM
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I don't think the point is to remind the Creator of what his priorities are, but to remind the Creator that the you know/accept that He is running things.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:30 AM
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My version of "you're in my prayers" is "I'm sending all my spare good mojo your way."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:32 AM
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I cannot imagine saying "You're in my prayers" if I'm not religious. But I've never lived in a religious milieu, even when I was personally religious*. Regardless, the idea of saying that when you don't pray strikes me as nuts. Among other things, surely, at some point, it will come out that you're irreligious/don't pray/whatever. How awkward would it be to say, "You're in my prayers," and then have the other person say, "I thought you didn't believe in God"? "Oh, I don't, but I pray anyway." Doesn't work, I don't think.

Also - and I probably don't need to say this - being told that someone will pray for me or that I'm in their prayers is always a conversation-stopper for me. "Uh, thanks?" "Put in a good word for the Pirates while you're at it"?

* It was really weird when I moved from Miami to NJ, where most of my classmates were Catholic, and sneezes got a hearty round of "Bless you!"s. Maybe even "God bless you." I don't think any of them were particularly religious (maybe L/ane V/gnola attended Our Lady of Hurting the New Kid), but it was the culture. I go with Gesundheit, which would never make anyone of any religion feel uncomfortable.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:33 AM
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4: The best part of this formulation is that it has a good converse - "I'm sending all my spare bad mojo your way" - whereas most people are uncomfortable saying, "I'll be praying for God to punish you."

Not uncomfortable meaning it, mind you. Just saying it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:36 AM
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My grandma lets me know every once in a while that she prays for me regularly. It makes me a little sad because I know that means she worries about me a bit. She means it kindly, to let me know she's thinking about me, pulling for me. She has thirty other grandchildren and nineteen great-grandchildren, so her list of people to prayer for is probably pretty long. I doubt, however, that she really thinks God is going to intervene because she prays: it's more a way of meditating on her hopes and attachments.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:36 AM
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sneezes got a hearty round of "Bless you!"s. Maybe even "God bless you."

That's an etiquette thing, I think. You get it in NYC all the time from all sorts of people.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:38 AM
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I don't think the point is to remind the Creator of what his priorities are, but to remind the Creator that the youourselves that we're supposed to know/accept that He is running things.

Depends who's doing the praying, of course.

Basically, what 7 said.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:40 AM
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In French, people will say "à tes souhaits" (for your wishes) after you sneeze. If you sneeze a second time, they might say "à tes amours" (for your loves); there's no third sneeze protocol.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:40 AM
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I'm shocked at the number of people who think it's affirmatively rude not to say something (whether "bless you", "gesundheit", or whatever else) following a sneeze. It's not something I was raised doing, and it just never crossed my mind. But I've been trying to pick up the habit, because people get really offended.

Also, 5 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:42 AM
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10: I usually sneeze in set of 3.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:42 AM
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8: What, in Miami they don't have etiquette?

I actually don't recall what happened in Miami, just that it was strikingly different in NJ. I suspect that, in Miami, you'd get a few mumbled "Bless you"s, with (virtually) no "God"s and no choral effect.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:44 AM
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I'm tempted to get judgmental at heebie's mom (me, judgmental? There's a shock.) although I'm not exactly sure if I'm judgmental about her misrepresenting her intentions to religious people in a way that implies total disregard for the importance of something they take seriously, or for not showing the secularist flag. I mean, if people were going to come after her for admitting she didn't pray, that'd be an excuse for covering it up, but is that a real worry?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:45 AM
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If someone can give me the French for, "Enough with the goddam sneezes already," I have a funny joke to make.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:45 AM
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"We're thinking of you" seems to do the trick for me, but I could see saying "you're in my prayers" if I were in a place where saying something in place of that would be taken askance. Like "bless you" after sneezes, or "good morning" even if the weather is crap.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:47 AM
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I sneeze in threes as well. I don't actually know if this is reliable, but a Spanish language podcast informed me that the Mexican etiquette is "Salud!" (health) for the first sneeze, "Dinero!" (money) for the second, and "Amor!" (love) for the third.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:47 AM
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Oh wait, I think that "salut" is the first one, so the French have protocols for three sneezes, but not four.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:49 AM
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10: there's no third sneeze protocol.

Run screaming out of the room yelling "swine flu!" (grippe de porcs?)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:49 AM
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11.1: That's nuts.

9.1 is pretty good.

I'm trying to recall my mindset when I was a very earnest prayer in HS and early college. I was definitely never transactional (once I got old enough to stop praying for the Mets, that is), but I was so fucking earnest about it that I was probably completely self conscious about praying "the right way." I dunno. I was very devout, but I never felt any kind of personal transcendent contact or whatever (I did have a certain reverence for nature that I assumed, when I stopped going to Church, would transform itself into some other form of devotion, but didn't at all - once I gave up on Christianity, it was straight to pure atheism).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:51 AM
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"good morning" even if the weather is crap.

You know, it's possible to have a good morning even when the weather is crap.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:52 AM
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there's no third sneeze protocol.

"Okay, enough already. Why don't you go blow your nose or something?"

I have the habit of saying "bless you". Strangers almost invariably say "thank you", sometimes with a tone of genuine appreciation. Fun fact: some form of "bless you" has been used for 2000 years; Pliny mentions it.

On preview, JRoth-pwned.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:54 AM
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I'm sort of coming at this from the opposite angle. I did pray for Hawaiian Punch and Heebie, but I didn't mention it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:54 AM
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I think I've mentioned this before, but: I always sneeze in twos, and my wife always sneezes in singles. Always. Except, both times when she's been pregnant with my kid, she's sneezed in twos as well. Throughout the whole pregnancy, until the delivery--then boom, back to single sneezes again. With our second child, her double sneezes were actually our first hint that she was pregnant.

(She's never been pregnant by anyone else, so it's possible that it's not my kids that are doing this to her, but instead just some weird feature of her body being pregnant. But it would be interesting to have a triple-sneezer impregnate her sometime, just to see what would happen.)


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:58 AM
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"I'm not exactly sure if I'm judgmental about her misrepresenting her intentions to religious people in a way that implies total disregard for the importance of something they take seriously, or for not showing the secularist flag"

Can't it be both? I mean, isn't it pretty disrespectful to lie about something that the other person puts great weight on? And, conversely, I find it pretty rude when people say they will pray for me or are praying for me (which thankfully doesn't happen much in the UK, but it does online). It betrays a degree of presumption, and when they know I'm an atheist, an air of moral superiority.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:59 AM
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24: Alright, where does your wife live.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:59 AM
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I find it pretty rude when people say they will pray for me or are praying for me

Huh. I tend to find it sweet and charming, myself. I'd think it sort of rude if they were suggesting *I* pray about something, but not enough to be bothered by it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:04 AM
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25: Huh. I don't, actually find it offensive to be prayed for -- from the perspective of the person doing it, they're going me a good turn, from my perspective, it's meaningless except as good wishes. And if I'm wrong, and there's some point to it, all the better.

It's like that story about some famous physicist with a horseshoe nailed up over the door of his study. A friend said "You can't possibly believe in that," and his response was "Of course not, but I understand that it works whether you believe in it or not."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:06 AM
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Doing me a good turn, not going.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:06 AM
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At the playground with my sister and the kids, we ran into a sweet Egyptian couple. He was very gregarious, but after a while I started talking with the wife, who asked me straightaway if the boys were mine. "Nope, I don't have kids." She instantly told me she would pray for me. It was presumptuous, but she was charming, so I was charmed. Besides, by luck, she was on the right track. I figured that was an angle I hadn't tried yet and if she was volunteering, I'd get her working on it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:06 AM
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It's not something I get worked up about, but like I say, the presumption rankles.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:09 AM
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Yeah, it's a common reaction, common enough that I respect it, just one that doesn't click for me. Like that Mormon 'baptizing dead people who don't know about it, didn't consent, and certainly wouldn't convert if they were alive' thing: plenty of reasonable people seem to find that a serious affront. Me, it seems ridiculous but harmless -- what should anyone care about random people saying they baptized you?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:13 AM
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I tend to treat "you're in my prayers" as synonymous with "you're in my thoughts". (What, after all, is prayer?) The situations in which it's used are generally not situations conducive to discussions of the nature of prayer (or of secularism or faith or rudeness &c.).


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:13 AM
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My grandma lets me know every once in a while that she prays for me regularly.

My mom used to do this, and even once told me that her Sunday school class was praying for me. I've tried to take it as charitably as possible, but I'm pretty sure that the things they're praying for God to change in my life are things that suit me just fine.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:14 AM
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35

Giving condolences is when I wish I actually did pray, because "I'm thinking of you" just sounds lame to me. The transactional prayer would give me more comfort that I could do something to help.

And I say "Bless you" without batting an eye.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:15 AM
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36

I find it much easier to think of blessings without an actor. 'I've been truly blessed' doesn't really need a blessor in my head.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:18 AM
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37

I am generally OK with it, but back in the day the sports fan Christian Ed director at my church (an otherwise very sweet lady) pushed the limit. "I was praying so hard for you", she'd enthuse after a swim meet. Good, I'd think ungraciously think, because the swimmers from C. Estes Kefauver High School were the Devil!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:19 AM
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34: I've tried to take it as charitably as possible, but I'm pretty sure that the things they're praying for God to change in my life are things that suit me just fine.

Ooo. Yeah, prayer with an implication of "praying for you to stop sinning" or the like would be annoying.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:20 AM
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but I'm pretty sure that the things they're praying for God to change in my life are things that suit me just fine.

If He hasn't done it yet, it seems very unlikely that God would strike down Sifu just because of their prayers.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:21 AM
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40

I would feel like a great big fat lying liar if I said that I was praying for someone. Saying "bless you" after a sneeze, however, is nearly as deracinated for me as "goodbye" (descended, as you all no doubt know, from "God be with you").


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:23 AM
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41

it seems very unlikely that God would strike down Sifu

Yeah, I'd figure they're going to need to call in the killer robots.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:24 AM
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Wow. Until I read 40, I'd never realized that
"adios" was surely a shortened "vaya con dios". I feel like an idiot.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:26 AM
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35: And yet condolences are when I'm most annoyed at the sentiment. "Annoyance" isn't quite the right word, but I felt very keenly when my mom died that she wasn't "looking down" or any crap like that, and so it was irritating to hear that kind of sentiment. They may as well have been telling me that maybe she was just asleep*. I understand the sentiment, obvs., but I just didn't want to hear it. Tell me a funny story from her life, not some fantasy tale from your head.

* I realize that on some level this is precisely correct, but I mean literally: "I'm sorry your mom died, but they're wrong about these things sometimes - keep up your hopes!"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:26 AM
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For sneezing, if I say anything, I'd say "boodt zdarov!", which is what they say in Russia, meaning "be healthy!" I like that it's an imperative.

Sometimes, when I'm in a tight situation, I've said to people (usually via writing), things like, "if you know any prayers, this might be a good time for them." I like that, because it has a flavor of asking people to perform magical rituals. It's never seemed to help me, though.

What I don't like is when I give some change to a homeless person and they say, "God bless you". They almost all do it so I suspect it's something you learn in begging classes. (There almost are sure things- lots of information sharing.) I always want to (but never do) say "let's leave him out of it since he didn't have anything to do with it."


Posted by: Matt (not the famous one) | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:28 AM
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42: I never thought about it until I saw some movie - possibly "Magnificent Seven" - in which the Mexican characters were clearly saying " a dios."

Of course, this was decades ago. If I hadn't figured it out til now, I'd feel like a real idiot.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:28 AM
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44: "He doesn't seem too attentive to your requests anyway."

It's possible that that was horrible and degenerate.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:30 AM
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47

Hilariously enough, I think Sifu's presence has quelled the worry about me a bit. Godless WASP seems to be fine. There was real consternation over the godless brown dude of years past.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:30 AM
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I grew up saying gesundheit to sneezes, but I think that I hear "bless you" most often even among pretty firmly secular people.

I could rarely say that someone was in my prayers and would feel self-conscious doing it. I even feel kind of funny when a priest at my church might say it to me, a situation where it would be totally appropriate. I might say it to someone else I know through church "thoguhts and prayers" but not otherwise.

Past the age of about 4 I never saw this as transactional and a lot of praying is about meditation--certainly monks who chant do this-and listening. And I love the words of formal prayers. I've always liked the ones that involve praying for a discerning heart.

One of my absolute favorite prayers from the Prayers of the People is, "Pray for our enemies and those who wish us harm." You sort of hope that when you pray for your personal enemies over a long period of time, they won't be your enemy even if you're theirs. (Obviously learning to let go doesn't require religion, but it's a useful tool for a lot of people.)


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:31 AM
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49

I feel like an idiot.

Don't! Those things are textbook examples of semantic bleaching.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:34 AM
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The southern German "Grüß Gott" as a greeting is short for a sentence meaning "May god bless you." Grüßen now means more like 'greet' than 'bless' though, so it sounds like everyone is saying, "Greet God". I always want to say, okay, if I run into him.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:34 AM
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48: "I've always liked the ones that involve praying for a discerning heart."

Me too, ever since I figured out that knowing more wasn't actually any help at all for some decisions.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:40 AM
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51 is Moby Hick. Oops.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:42 AM
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I almost never utter any of these phrases, but as a Christian who attends a somewhat typical southern church, I can offer some perspective.

"You're in my prayers" does not mean the same thing as "I will pray for you".

As someone mentioned upthread, "you're in my prayers" is synonymous with "you're in my thoughts". It doesn't even have the slightest religious ring to my hallowed ears. In fact, I generally read it to mean the opposite, because a True Believer ® would say "I will pray for you".

"I will pray for you" has several different meanings. Anyone who has ever been offended by it was probably right to be, because it often means "I'm praying that you'll turn from your iniquity and repent and accept Jesus", so.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:42 AM
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Godless WASP seems to be fine. There was real consternation over the godless brown dude of years past.

Sifu, please get a really, really dark tan just before the wedding.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:42 AM
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Kierkegaard has some good prayers.

So may You give to the intellect, wisdom to comprehend that one thing; to the heart, sincerity to receive this understanding; to the will, purity that wills only one thing. In prosperity may You grant perseverance to will one thing; amid distractions, collectedness to will one thing; in suffering, patience to will one thing. You that gives both the beginning and the completion, may You early, at the dawn of the day, give to the young the resolution to will one thing. As the day wanes, may You give to the old a renewed remembrance of their first resolution, that the first may be like the last, the last like the first, in possession of a life that has willed only one thing. Alas, but this has indeed not come to pass. Something has come in between. The separation of sin lies in between. Each day, and day after day something is being placed in between: delay, blockage, interruption, delusion, corruption. So in this time of repentance may You give the courage once again to will one thing.

"Gesundheit" has always seemed a little odd to me, as though I should follow it with "Oh gosh, was I speaking German again?"


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:43 AM
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53 - pwnfest


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:45 AM
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Until I read 40, I'd never realized that
"adios" was surely a shortened "vaya con dios".

That's okay. I didn't realize it till I read 42, despite knowing both phrases.

It does make you think, as we've discussed here before, about the wisdom of taking similar phrases in other languages literally ("inshallah", etc.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:49 AM
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One of my sisters used to say "gizzenheit" when she was small. Very cute.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:50 AM
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Good, I'd think ungraciously think, because the swimmers from C. Estes Kefauver High School were the Devil!

Like Dukies!


Posted by: Roy W. | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:50 AM
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Wasn't sure whether to post this marginally on topic local item in this thread or the DADT one, but I'll do it here given this:

When he broke the news [being thrown out of Grove City College in his last semester because he is a gay porn star on weekends], his mother started "praying and fasting."
(Grove City College promotes itself as "Authentically Christian")
Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:54 AM
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I think for 56 we should all work together and create a pwnfestschrift.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:57 AM
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:"Gesundheit" has always seemed a little odd to me, as though I should follow it with "Oh gosh, was I speaking German again?"

Eh. I heard it all the time growing up, didn't know it was German, didn't know what it meant, just knew that it was what people said when you sneezed if they didn't say "bless you." The fact that most people imagine it to read something like "kazoomtite" also adds to its non-exoticism (it's not like pronouncing some phrase with a good French accent, which is very plainly Foreign).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:57 AM
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49: I was just making fun of Brock.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:58 AM
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when I give some change to a homeless person and they say, "God bless you"

I don't give change, but will sometimes buy soup or a sandwich after asking if they're hungry and would they like some food. I am basically an atheist, and when I do this, I say "God bless you" though I never say this in other circumstances.

I live in a basically secular social world. I think the world would be a better place if nonsectarian religious sentiment would be more widespread, even if I don't have any myself. Hypocrisy?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:02 AM
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There's always the funny moment in a first-year German language class when someone sneezes. Everyone sort of pauses and looks at each other, and then someone will proudly proclaim, Gesundheit! and everyone laughs.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:03 AM
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57: Once upon a time, we had several comenters who could speak to the presence or absence of religious overtones in phrases like "inshallah." Maybe Lebanc will stop by. I'm curious.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:09 AM
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I've made exactly one foreign language joke in my life. We were taking turns reading Ortega y Gasset and he was going on about 'el hombre de carne y hueso'. When it was my turn, I read 'el hombre de carne y queso'. Everybody laughed except the teacher, who was either a fan or a sympathic woman who didn't want to mock her students if they made a mistake.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:09 AM
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54: I'm just inviting as many gay and/or obviously weird looking friends as I can.

On the subject of the post, I just say "May the Dark Lord Satan have some mercy on your pitiful soul!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:17 AM
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I say "Goddamit" without necessarily meaning all of the religious implications.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:17 AM
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69: You really don't want God to stop up the river?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:24 AM
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the Mexican etiquette is "Salud!" (health) for the first sneeze, "Dinero!" (money) for the second, and "Amor!" (love) for the third.

I've heard this from a Venezuelan. I think the most common thing is to say either Salud or Jesús and also Jesús María, which word reference forums suggest can be part of another three-sneeze combo: Sneeze one: Jesús!, Sneeze two: María!, and Sneeze three: José!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:26 AM
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69: Surely that must usually startle whoever the sneezer is?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:27 AM
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71: That's cute. I think I'll start naming my sneezes too.

Of course, this now reminds of Ren & Stimpy cartoon.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:28 AM
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72: serves 'em right.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:29 AM
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Regarding sneezes, I'm a single-sneezer, except when I walk out into sunlight, in which case I usually sneeze twice. My brother and father are the same, and I occasionally meet other sunlight sneezers, and I remember once reading a little article about it in some science magazine where they had shown that it was indeed a genetic trait.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:31 AM
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I can't believe I've never mentioned this here before, but some years ago I started saying "slalom!" when people wanted to clink glasses, just to see if anybody would call me on it. Generally people don't. Whether this is because they quietly decide my sense of humor is moronic or because they think I'm from a different, more Nordic celebratory tradition I do not know.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:32 AM
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as many gay and/or obviously weird looking friends as I can

You're having an Unfogged meet-up at your wedding? You're a brave one.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:35 AM
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76: People around these parts often bring the glass back down after clinking to sort of tap the table before drinking. I've never gotten a good explanation for that one other than a vague "It's for good luck."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:35 AM
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76: Nordic peoples shout the names of snuff products when the clink glasses. I've always found that strange.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:36 AM
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shout the names of snuff products

FACES OF DEATH! Bottoms up!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:37 AM
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79: like, "FACES OF DEATH!" (drink)?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:37 AM
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Wow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:38 AM
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80, 81: Can I jinx both of you?

I was referring to 'between the check and gum' snuff products like Skoal.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:39 AM
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Dammit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:39 AM
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REDMAN! (drink)

Redman: Hey guys, what's up?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:41 AM
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80/81 are terrifying/wonderful.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:48 AM
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86: Indeed. And it's hard to believe that was just a coincidence. One is forced to ask the question "qui bono?"


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:51 AM
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Perhaps they're both making money through product placement now???


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:53 AM
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We've both noted before that we seem to be the same person. Except he just gets accused of being a frat boy, while I walk the walk.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:54 AM
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I can't decide if this is on topic or not, but it does say "blessing". Also, whoa.

She says her son now feels sick to his stomach when he thinks about the fact that they slept together. "And that's good because that's normal. I finally got to a place where I'm like his mother, kind of. Not really, but kind of. And that's a good thing. That's a blessing."


Posted by: Cecily | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:55 AM
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I was actually a little embarrassed I didn't know the names of any better snuff films than Faces of Death.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:58 AM
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90: Yow.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:59 AM
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91: Twilight Zone: The Movie


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:00 AM
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93: if only they hadn't cut the best scene!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:01 AM
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The Zapruder film.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:01 AM
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90: whoa.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:02 AM
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83: I was referring to 'between the check and gum' snuff products like Skoal
Why didn't you just say "snus" then?


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:03 AM
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90: Holy crap!


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:05 AM
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I'm with Heebie on the weird offensiveness of the implied transactional nature of praying "for" someone. (Would it be less uncomfortable if people said "about," I wonder.)

But I totally get her mom's pov too. The problem is, someone is having a terrible time, and you wish there was something you could do for them. Mostly you can't do anything but wish them well. But "I wish you well" can sound off-note, and things like "good vibes" or "sending you my mojo" or whatever sound flippant. (Unless someone is newagey and really believes in vibes or whatever, in which case it comes across as intended, I think.) So, how to convey your fervent good wishes when "good wishes" is the kind of thing that usually means "congratulations"?

Because of this, I will sometimes say "I'll say a prayer (or "light a candle") for you," but only to people who are more or less as Catholic as I am and, I think, know that that doesn't literally mean "I will kneel down and say now-I-lay-me-down-to-sleep-I-pray-the-lord-Heebie-to-keep before bed tonight," but know that lighting a candle or praying is basically a way of wishing someone well in a situation where you are helpless to do anything but wish.

To everyone else I will say things like "I'll keep you in my thoughts" or just "I"m so sorry."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:05 AM
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Following up to 94, I am disturbed to discover that "the best scene" appears to actually exist on the internet (dunno how much it shows; I turned it off).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:05 AM
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I'm sending bad mojo to you RIGHT NOW, B.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:08 AM
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90 - Bodies are really powerful. It is pretty intimidating how much they run things and how hard it is to fight them.

(By which I mean that their bodies caught scent of the other and sent signals about being close that their selves then had to put in a context. Rough.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:10 AM
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97: Because we always called it snuff. I thought snus was a sub-set of snuff.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:13 AM
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But also (I refuse to deal with the link in 90, I think), I think it's a bit silly to feel like saying "I'll pray for you" is a lie if one doesn't. It's no more a lie than saying "fine" if someone asks how you are and you're feeling crabby or unwell: it's a conventional thing to say. Or can be. Obviously audience and context matter here.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:14 AM
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I thought "snus" was a word introduced in this country by tobacco companies two or three years ago in a rebranding effort.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:14 AM
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Even given 102, with which I don't think anyone would argue, what weird about 90 is that I'm not sure why it would be common for their bodies to give this signal. "Genetic closeness" shouldn't, biologically, be the sort of thing that gets your gears runnings, I wouldn't think. So what exactly *is* it that creates the pull?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:15 AM
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101: I'm deeply . . . insulted.



Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:16 AM
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"Genetic closeness" shouldn't, biologically, be the sort of thing that gets your gears runnings, I wouldn't think.

I don't get the 'on the veldt' rationale for it, but I know I've read that married couples tend to resemble each other in a whole lot of weirdly detailed ways -- like, more than can be reasonably explained by social ethnic sorting. If there is some tendency to be attracted to people who resemble you, an unidentified relative would be a problem.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:18 AM
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Okay, actually I am going to deal with the link in 90. I don't see why this strikes people as weird *at all*.

what exactly *is* it that creates the pull?

Clearly, it's a feeling of deep love that one wants to express physically. Surely any parent knows what this is like, even if one doesn't want to admit it because OMG TABOO. I think the usual acceptable parental expression of it is "I'll eat you up, I love you so."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:19 AM
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Surely any parent knows what this is like

Except Brock.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:20 AM
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I don't see why this strikes people as weird *at all*.

Okay then, how about this story?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:22 AM
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My ignorant guess is that genetic closeness does get gears going, maternal or paternal or sibling attachments. So these grown-ups meet, their bodies rev up for a stranger and then it all gets scrambled.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:22 AM
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"Genetic closeness" shouldn't, biologically, be the sort of thing that gets your gears runnings,

Assortative mating.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:22 AM
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I don't see why this strikes people as weird *at all*.

Incest taboo? I can see an argument that it's not surprising that it happens sometimes, and I'm liberal enough to go through an argument that it's not necessarily *wrong*. But it's definitely weird.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:22 AM
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I thought "snus" was a word introduced in this country by tobacco companies two or three years ago in a rebranding effort

It is a different preparation method for snuff. Specifically it is steam cured and not fermented. Interestingly it seems to have none of the cancer links that other snuff and tobacco products have.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:22 AM
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I only looked at the URL of the story in 111, but there's nothing wrong with a boy having a sex god moth.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:23 AM
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111: oh, well, they don't mean "godmother" in the religious sense.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:24 AM
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110: We all know Brock is weird.

114: I can see why it strikes people as something one ought not talk about, or as shocking. But weird seems to me to mean bizarre, puzzling, perplexing: something one can't empathize with. People have sexual responses to all sorts of strong feelings, and surely the feeling of meeting a lost child or parent is about as strong as one can get.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:25 AM
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Link in 111: weird, no. Predatory and fucked up, yes.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:27 AM
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Doesn't the incest taboo tend to only form strongly with people you grow up around? I swear there's research on this.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:27 AM
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I think 120 is right.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:28 AM
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"Genetic closeness" shouldn't, biologically, be the sort of thing that gets your gears runnings, I wouldn't think.

Why not? Your genes "want" to reproduce themselves.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:28 AM
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120, 121: I know this sounds crazy, but read the article.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:28 AM
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Yeah, I think so. Incest taboo isn't formed by blood as much as is being reared together as small children. Still.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:29 AM
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It's the Westermarck effect, and it's mentioned in the article.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:31 AM
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Or, what rfts said in 113. The wiki article is decent on the subject:

Assortative Mating


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:31 AM
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123: what, like, all the way to the end?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:31 AM
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I know a guy who had a sexual relationship off and on with his sister from about age 16 to 22. They had boyfriends and girlfriends and all the usual stuff, but still slept together on the QT every so often. It lead to a great deal of stress on both of them and eventually they told their parents. That has to have been a fun conversation. AFAIK they've done counseling individually, together, and with their parents and things are more or less worked out now.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:32 AM
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Incest taboo isn't formed by blood as much as is being reared together as small children

or having to raise someone up from a child, or having to deal with someone raising you.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:32 AM
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124/25: Yes -- and they mention research in the article that children raised communally on kibbutzes and the like rarely get with each other either.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:33 AM
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Meh, I think that the genetic aspect of this thing is a red herring, except inasmuch as it's a synechdoche for "parent/child (or sibling) relationship." That is, I don't think there's some veldt explanation at all; it's just that here is someone who you have been longing to meet most (all) of your (their) life.

I'm sure that genetic similarities of manner, taste, or temperament can help make the meeting feel uncannily like a "meeting of souls" type thing, which can surely fan the flames of "this is intense, man." But I don't see why the recognition/love/desire feeling has to have some evo psych explanation attached to it; regular psych seems to explain it perfectly well.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:34 AM
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We've both noted before that we seem to be the same person.

So, how was the sex?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:34 AM
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do ut des, laydeez.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:35 AM
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I think that the genetic aspect of this thing is a red herring

I'm willing to give it some credence, at an uninformed "there's probably pheromones" level.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:37 AM
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131: Assortative mating is robustly supported by scientific evidence, and it would be crazy to think that it didn't also operate in humans.

Just asking, but you still haven't read the article?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:39 AM
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113/126: right. Positive assortive mating is, evolutionarily, a bit of a problem.

I don't find it "bizarre" as in "unsympathetic" at all. I'm just wondering what's driving the attraction. I aware that the incest taboo wouldn't come into play (b/c I read the whole article, although I knew that anyway)--at least on a personal level, obviously the social taboo is still there and quite strong. As for 109--a feeling of deep love? Sure, I feel deep love for my kids, but I know them, and am raising them. I don't think I'd feel the same deep love if neither of those things was true.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:41 AM
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I don't think I'd feel the same deep love if neither of those things was true.

But you'd still have been raised with a sense of a parent-child relationship as one where deep love was normal and appropriate, and dropping a stranger into that role is going to do something emotionally complicated to you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:43 AM
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here is someone who you have been longing to meet most (all) of your (their) life

I guess if that were the case, maybe. Is that the typical case? It would be interesting to know if the effect was observed significantly less often in people who met a lost relative they hadn't previously known existed.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:44 AM
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I don't think I'd feel the same deep love

But there's the possibility that you would have a sense that here is someone who is Like You, and Interesting, and Should Be Connected and Wow, That's Eerie that we both like relish so much.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:50 AM
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here is someone who is Like You

I guess that's where I'm losing the chain of reasoning. Other than genetically, is this likely to be true?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:52 AM
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There are the stories of separated identical twins who have freaky coincidences their whole lives.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:55 AM
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137 is interesting. It implies we'd see this same effect even in unrelated persons who were told they were long-lost close relatives. I wonder whether that's true.

We could really do a lot of interesting social science if it weren't for those pesky ethics boards.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:55 AM
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Other than genetically

That's a great big other than.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:56 AM
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Brock, the article itself mentions that genetic sexual attraction is present in people who meet relatives they never knew they had, including lost siblings.

The test for the converse hypothesis, that people raised together but not genetic relatives will develop the incest taboo comes with the Kibbutz data.

The research was all been done decades ago, and it is all well established.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:58 AM
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141: Also decades of scientific studies of twins covering traits as diverse as blood pressure and homosexuality.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:00 AM
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144: rob, I'm wondering about GSA developing in people who were only told they were related.

I guess the testing problem would be differentiating it from plain old sexual attraction.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:02 AM
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Perhaps on-topic, I have an update from the Venezuelan about what comes after the fourth sneeze: Sexo! But you don't actually say it; you just give a knowing eybrow-raise/smirk.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:03 AM
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I know this sounds crazy, but read the article.

Sorry, that's taboo among my people.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:07 AM
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146: You're right, that is a prediction of the hypothesis that is not equivalent to either test I proposed. I was trying to lump that in with the kibbutz test, but you really can't.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:07 AM
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146: I'd bet the physical resemblance between close relatives is a real factor.

To reveal an embarrassing level of narcissism, I think my daughter is an awfully appealling child -- I can sit and just enjoy watching her do stuff partially just because I just like looking at her standing there being all strong and pretty. Given that reaction, I get brought up short when anyone else meets her for the first time, because they nine times out of ten have the same reaction -- look at her, at me, at her, and comment on how freakishly strong the resemblance is. The words "Mini-me" get used. And then I get weird about my revealed vanity.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:09 AM
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150: I know I've read that research suggests that parents of multiple children tend to favor the children who most closely resemble the parent.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:12 AM
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150: On the plus side, at least you know she's yours.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:13 AM
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Given how rare the ability to recognize oneself is in the animal kingdom -- and how closely tied it is to the ability to feel empathy -- I don't know that there should be a negative moral value attached to it, nor that "vanity" is necessarily the right word.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:14 AM
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Still, this area is good place for on-the-veldt explanations. In general, too much inbreeding and too much outbreeding are maladaptive. Inbreeding brings out maladaptive traits, while outbreeding dilutes the genes which are seeking competitive dominance. In such a situation, you would expect opposing mechanisms to evolve, one inhibiting inbreeding and one inhibiting outbreeding. It turns out that the anti-inbreeding mechanism is environmental--it involves who was interacting during early childhood. The anti-outbreeding mechanism is more directly genetic. We seek mates that have traits that indicate the have genes close to ours (and no one is closer than Mom.)

This is almost a case where we can derive a moral conclusion from empirical premises. We have an incest taboo, and we wonder whether it covers hard cases like adoptive siblings or genetic siblings raised apart. Well, it turns out that our instinctive repugnance to incest comes from the social trait of being raised together, rather than the genetic trait. So I'm tempted to say that the moral wrong of incest comes from social roles, not genetics. This doesn't actually work, but it is tempting


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:15 AM
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152: On the negative side, other than from circumstantial and testimonial evidence, Buck doesn't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:17 AM
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I know I've read that research suggests that parents of multiple children tend to favor the children who most closely resemble the parent.

This is hard to tease out from other factors, though. For example, when a white father shows disfavor towards the black children his white wife has had, it could just be that he's a racist.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:30 AM
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155: Oh, I think Buck knows she's yours.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:34 AM
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M/tch, I read the article before commenting. Okay?

I feel deep love for my kids, but I know them, and am raising them. I don't think I'd feel the same deep love if neither of those things was true.

Really? Imagine that you placed a kid for adoption, or that your wife ran off immediately after the last kid was born and you had only seen it briefly. If it managed to track you down twenty years from now, you don't think you'd feel deep love and emotion about that?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:42 AM
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Newt, I should say, is also very appealing. But doesn't resemble me nearly as strongly. He looks something like Buck as a kid, but it's hard to see facial resemblances, whether or not they're there, between a bald guy with a giant bushy moustache and beard and glasses, and a kid with head hair, no facial hair, and no glasses. It comes down to nose and cheekbones as the only part of both faces that's visible.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:43 AM
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LB, stop being so uptight and let Newt grow a beard already.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:07 PM
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Bearded Newt


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:10 PM
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Not reading the comment thread, sorry, but I did just want to note that a) I'm not Christian b) I do pray, quite a lot and c) I will say "thoughts and prayers" unless I know someone is explicitly an atheist (most of my friends) in which case I leave prayers out in talking to them--though I don't leave them out of my prayers. I then usually say, "sending you good vibes" if it's not too serious. I don't like the word mojo that much.


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:11 PM
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150: AB & I both admire our children for being beautiful by not resembling either of us. A lot of people say that Iris resembles me, but we don't see it much, and she has AB's chin, nose, and colors, so it's a bit hard to credit.

I suppose you could argue that we each like how she resembles ourselves, but I think it's more that she's a new, attractive creation.

I was cute as hell as a little kid, but Iris looks nothing like I did then.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:12 PM
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though I don't leave them out of my prayers

Hey! Stop that!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:14 PM
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So I'm tempted to say that the moral wrong of incest comes from social roles, not genetics. This doesn't actually work, but it is tempting

It might. The incest taboo is universal but what counts as incest varies a little bit. (Cousins on one side are permissible, the others aren't.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:15 PM
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If it managed to track you down twenty years from now, you don't think you'd feel deep love and emotion about that?

Depends. Did I name this child "Sue"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:18 PM
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The incest taboo is universal

this is controversial


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:18 PM
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or at least, it's only universal in a pretty loose sense.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:20 PM
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167: Sign your name, motherfucker.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:21 PM
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168: Just like your mama!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:21 PM
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Seriously, M/tch.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:22 PM
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Now, now, there's no need for name calling.


Posted by: Oedipus | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:22 PM
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whups


Posted by: motherfucking remember personal info | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:22 PM
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171 to ?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:27 PM
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what counts as incest varies a little bit. (Cousins on one side are permissible, the others aren't.)

I seem to recall that if you stick to one side, this removes the risk of inbreeding. Now, if there turned out to be societies where both sets of cousins were kosher, then you could talk about social roles.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:33 PM
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I don't like when people say "bless you", or anything else for that matter, in response to my sneezing. It's one of those things I'd prefer that people just pretend not to notice, like public farts.

I suspect this is because I suffered greatly from seasonal allergies as a child, and was very self-conscious about it.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:34 PM
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167,8: I thought it was fairly easy to show that the incest taboo was universal, but exact family structures are not. For instance, avuncular societies don't recognize paternity, so they focus that part of the incest taboo to the mother and mother's brothers.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:34 PM
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175: Is there such a thing as fruit that hangs too low?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:35 PM
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Now, if there turned out to be societies where both sets of cousins were kosher, then you could talk about social roles.

Western Europe and the US until sometime early in the 20th century. Read 19th century English fiction -- people marry their cousins right and left.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:39 PM
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I suspect this is because I suffered greatly from seasonal allergies masturbated a lot as a child


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:40 PM
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176: Oh, the worst thing is when you have a cold or something and just keep on sneezing, and someone conscientiously blessing you each time. It's not that it happens much, but it has happened to me and driven me insane.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:40 PM
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181: In that situation I usually say "look, clearly the blessing stuff isn't working. Let's try something else."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:42 PM
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while outbreeding dilutes the genes which are seeking competitive dominance

Is this true? The only contexts in which I have seen clear arguments suggesting an optimal level of outbreeding involve unusual sex-specific effects (imprinting or haplodiploid social insects).


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:42 PM
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183: Genes are selfish. They're not into that hippie love everyone crap.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 12:44 PM
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183

Is this true? The only contexts in which I have seen clear arguments suggesting an optimal level of outbreeding involve unusual sex-specific effects (imprinting or haplodiploid social insects).

I don't think it is true as stated. Outbreeding is maladaptive when it is associated with reduced fertility (as in being attracted to sheep).


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:03 PM
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as in being attracted to sheep

Stop oppressing me, Shearer.


Posted by: maladaptive apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:05 PM
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185: You're overlooking the fact that practicing with sheep can lead to superior mating performance once it's time for procreation.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:09 PM
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Outbreeding depression

It looks like my explanation for outbreeding depression was incorrect. Fifteen years ago, when I was TAing for D/avid H/ull, I heard him say that gene dilution was the explanation for outbreeding depression. Something seemed wrong about it then, but I wasn't able to formulate the objection. It may be that I simply didn't understand what he was talking about.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:10 PM
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177: I was thinking I'd like to move to an avuncular society until it dawned on me that you were probably using a very literal definition of avuncular.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:11 PM
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Inbreeding depression, outbreeding depression.

pffft. Sexor them all, the the genes sort them out.


Posted by: Arnaud-Amaury | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:16 PM
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I can't find a good page describing what I meant by "avuncular society." The pages for "avunculate society" that come up quickly all describe societies where there is a strong important bond between mother's brothers and sister's sons. I was thinking of the rare cases where this relationship displaces paternatity as in the Na/Mosou.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:24 PM
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outbreeding depression

interesting case study. Looks like this happens when allopatric speciation is interrupted. Complicated in organisms that self, where the distinction between population variation and speciation is not sharp.

At the risk of stating the obvious, does not apply to human populations.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:28 PM
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191: I looked-up avuncular and I saw that in origin it was from 'materal uncle', not just a any uncle.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:30 PM
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Please put an 'n' in 'materal'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:30 PM
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PANIIMH


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:43 PM
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Outbreeding is maladaptive when it is associated with reduced fertility (as in being attracted to sheep).

mouseover.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:46 PM
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PANII ... laydeeez


Posted by: n | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:48 PM
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"Blimey" -- which I use a lot, being as where I live and all -- is a nicely deracinated auto-prayer: "May God blind me!"*

*(to wit: "... if I saw the like in all my born days" or similar Cockney wonder: the longer but these days rarer version is "Cor Blimey!")


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 1:52 PM
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||

Woohoo! I just realized I miscalculated a deadline on something I needed to file next week, and it's five days later than I thought it was. Sweet!

|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:02 PM
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Nobody really means me when they say my name anymore.


Posted by: Kobe | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:04 PM
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199: Your prayers were answered!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:05 PM
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199: That never works for me in that direction. Yesterday I woke up and realized that I needed to finish and FedEx an abstract that very day rather than the week later I originally believed. Sigh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:12 PM
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185: If a man is never attracted to a willing sheep his brain and body is not working as intended.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:14 PM
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203: Besides, did you see what that ewe was wearing?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:28 PM
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No, because Shearer got there first.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:30 PM
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And then she was wearing nothing at all?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:32 PM
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...but you shear just *one* sheep.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:35 PM
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199

Woohoo! I just realized I miscalculated a deadline on something I needed to file next week, and it's five days later than I thought it was. Sweet!

Why do lawyers always wait for the last minute? Isn't that kind of reckless? Aren't the penalties rather draconian?

In fairness I always wait until April 15 to file my taxes but missing by a day or two isn't serious.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:36 PM
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206 is perhaps the most explicit-making of all the explicit-making comments that have ever made anything explicit.

I think I should start a joke ruining blog. It'll be just like standpipe's, but evil, with a moustache.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:37 PM
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Why do lawyers always wait for the last minute?

Original sin. Honestly, there's no excuse - I think I'm probably a little worse than most lawyers, but there empirically appears to be a connection between the kind of person who decides to be a litigator, and the kind of person who pushes deadlines.

Aren't the penalties rather draconian?

Less than you'd think; deadlines are usually renegotiable. I can't think of when I've literally missed a deadline, but I've seen it done by other people, and it's usually not fatal -- you can almost always get forgiven by the court if it's not a pattern. (To any junior litigators out there taking this too much to heart -- for some reason, missing deadlines for filing notices of appeal is fatal. Don't fuck with that one.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:40 PM
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210

Less than you'd think ...

Well except for that guy in Texas.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:48 PM
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Everything's more draconian in Texas....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:50 PM
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for some reason, missing deadlines for filing notices of appeal is fatal.

In federal court, because it's considered jurisdictional, at least in the circuits that have ruled on the question (which I think is most of them). I was involved in a case in which the side seeking to appeal filed by the deadline the district court told it to file by (there were some complicating factors), but the court got it indisputably wrong, and they were out of luck. Crazy.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:52 PM
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Speaking of deadlines, I just got a call from a guy I do some drafting work for, wondering where the hell the drawings I said he'd have Thursday are. I had a reasonable, but infuriating, excuse: my computer has been fucking crashing. The program is freezing, but I know it's because my computer sucks. What's bullshit is that this isn't some massive 3D model. I don't know what the problem is, but it keeps hanging up. I thought I'd have the first drawings done by noon, and it's still not done.

Obviously, I've been here as well, but a big chunk of that has been waiting to see whether the pinwheeling would resolve itself or I'd have to force quit.

Argh. Sorry for the humorless rant.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 2:54 PM
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My school is a big chorus-of-bless-yous when someone sneezes place. I always think it's funny/awkward when someone has a coughing spell during class, because there's nothing to say, but it feels like there should be.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:02 PM
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215: Greeks say something after you cough, and it's different from the thing they say after you sneeze. I could never remember whether I was supposed to say "yitzis" or "afkeristou" when a sneeze or cough occured somewhere near me.

NB: The above Greek spellings are almost certainly incorrect.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:07 PM
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216: after a sneeze Greeks say "yeia sou" or "yeia sas" (familiar/polite), which means "your health". I never picked up on saying something after a cough, but maybe I was just oblivious. ("Afkeristou" I'm guessing is supposed to be "efcharisto", which means "thank you". No idea about "yitzis".


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:11 PM
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213: I think I've cited that case, or at least a similar one. I'm really, really jumpy about notices of appeal for that reason -- it seems so disturbing that pretty much all other defaults can be cured by saying "Whoops, my bad," and that one is completely unfixable by any means.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:14 PM
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217: Oh wait, I was misremembering. After a cough you say "Christos" (i.e. Christ). Again, not sure about the spelling.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:16 PM
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179 etc - I'm sure you can marry your cousins here. I don't think you're supposed to if the two sets of parents are two sets of siblings (yeah, don't make the stupid joke, you're not my 8 year old son), because that would make you more like brother and sister.

I know I've read that research suggests that parents of multiple children tend to favor the children who most closely resemble the parent.

Oh, we have a friend who does this REALLY obviously. Must be really annoying for the others.

I don't know which of mine looks most like me. Although I do think that the one I find hardest to deal with is the one who looks least like me.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:23 PM
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Yeah, with my two it's very obvious which is the one with the stronger resemblance. It probably does affect my parenting on some level, although I'm not sure if it turns into my favoring her, or being more annoyed by her because her faults are things I'm used to beating myself up about. Newt, on the other hand, while imperfect, has a tendency to do delightful things that I would never have expected a kid (or, really, any relative of mine) to do, like clean up something because he's noticed it's untidy.

Like everything else, who you can marry is all state-by-state here, but I'm sure there are some states where you can marry first cousins.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:32 PM
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Hawaii looks incredibly like Jammies does in some newborn pictures of him that his mom sent us. And has one expression that looks exactly like a face he makes.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:33 PM
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221: but I'm sure there are some states where you can marry first cousins.

Looks like on the order of half the states have unrestricted first cousin marriage.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:35 PM
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214: OK, done at last. Off to a very nice dinner out with AB (no kids!). Y'all can read about it a week from next Thursday.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:48 PM
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218: yeah, the case I'm talking about got affirmed by the Supreme Court (which tightened things up even further in the process), so good chance it's the same one.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 3:50 PM
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I don't know which of mine looks most like me. Although I do think that the one I find hardest to deal with is the one who looks least like me.

Neither of my adopted-from-Korea kids looks the slightest bit like me. The one I find hardest to deal with is the one that acts the most like me. Hmmm.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 4:10 PM
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225

Bowles v. Russell .


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 4:17 PM
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224: Never been there. I'll have to try it someday, but we're sort of Big Burrito fans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 4:53 PM
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227: that's the one. I sort of expected Congress to fix this (as I think the judges below hoped they would), it's a ridiculous outcome, but they've shown no interest as far as I know.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 5:26 PM
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Waiting to the last minute is dumb. I never do it unless I have to accommodate other people, or if the other side has a hard date for response (in which case I'll be damned if I'm going to give them extra time).

I have a case right now where the poor lawyer on the other side keeps filing motions to postpone this, that, or the other thing, only to wait too long to file, and so my response isn't due until after the event he's seeking to postpone. I don't rush a response in there either.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 5:37 PM
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I have to show up to my court date on Monday morning only in order to ask for it to be postponed (again) b/c I *still* haven't managed to get someone to track down the fuckers I'm trying to get my money from. NOT MY FAULT.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 5:52 PM
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if the other side has a hard date for response (in which case I'll be damned if I'm going to give them extra time).

I had imagined that this was often, maybe even usually, a factor, putting everyone in the habit of taking absolutely all allowed time to do everything. (Most of what I know of any of that sort of thing comes at anecdotal secondhand from whatever my mother happens to mention about the rhythms of her life as a Work/er's Comp/ensation judge, which no doubt skews my impressions of the law substantially.)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 5:55 PM
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||

Charley, there's someone named Charli C/arpenter posting at LGM now, and I was like: huh? Charley is writing here (there) now, but spelling his name weirdly? But no, it is not you, unless you're pretending to be a girl woman. Which you might have reasons for doing, I imagine, but.

|>


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:04 PM
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233: I saw that too, and at first thought it was CC posting under a sassy new pseud. Charley and Charli should have their own blog.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:16 PM
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Sassy! And wouldn't that altered pseud be awesome? Also, I hope 233 wasn't an indiscretion error with respect to Charley.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:20 PM
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Oh, there's getting stuff done early, which is always an excellent goal, and actually giving it to the other side early, which I've very rarely seen done. I mean, if there really were no time-pressure issues I suppose you might, but usually there are.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:21 PM
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236

Oh, there's getting stuff done early, which is always an excellent goal, and actually giving it to the other side early, which I've very rarely seen done. I mean, if there really were no time-pressure issues I suppose you might, but usually there are.

So giving it to the other side quicker doesn't force them to reply quicker?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:27 PM
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Depends on what 'it' is, but in the sort of context where it makes sense to talk about getting stuff to the other side 'early' or not, there's generally a set schedule of dates when everything's due -- you can renegotiate, but the schedule's there and doesn't automatically change just because you served your document early.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:35 PM
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A curiosity: some may remember that I fussed recently about the legal bills I've been incurring on behalf of my mother's estate. So, I yelled at the paralegal (gently, yet firmly? and tersely? via email) last night for failing to get something to me in a timely manner -- a 2 week delay, in fact -- and now I grimace a bit: she felt the need to phone me immediately upon receipt of my email this morning in order to a) apologize repeatedly and bring me up to speed on various matters, and b) be a bit defensive about the fact that no, of course she would not be billing me/us for the overnight mail costs to send the stuff to me, like, now.

Hrm. It dawned on me at some point that if her firm loses our business, she might be considered to blame, which is surely the worst thing a paralegal can do. So certainly she must have felt the need to fall all over herself apologizing.

I seem to be finding it difficult to be a client while at the same time sympathizing with the paralegal.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:40 PM
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Don't worry about the paralegal. Small law firms and solo practitioners are notorious squeaky-wheel greasers; if you back off from sounding dissatisfied, there's a pretty good chance they'll stop taking care of you. And as long as you're not calling the lawyer demanding that she be fired (which would be rotten, and you shouldn't, but you weren't planning to), it's really unlikely that her job is in jeopardy over being unresponsive to you (unless she's a consistent screwup and you're the last straw, in which case you can't blame yourself).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:47 PM
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You all sound like very good lawyers. Does somebody want to represent me in my suit against KDKA news. I say it was defamatory for them to broadcast that video. They say that if I want to be anonymous at the furry convention, I should get costume that covers my face.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 6:51 PM
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GDitto 240. And you all do my heart good discussing the jurisdictional implications of timely filing a notice of appeal. Used to be in my state that filing too early was as bad as filing too late. Appeals are minefields; appellate counsel is your friend.

I don't mind giving the other side more time by filing early -- I just can't remember when I last had time to get anything done early. (Likely right before I started commenting here.)


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:02 PM
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So, how was the sex lunch?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:07 PM
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240: Yeah. I actually don't know how small-law-firm these people are; suppose I could look that up. We inherited them, to tell you the truth, after my mom's sole-practitioner retired. I've actually been pretty surprised by the delay in this case, as she's been spot on otherwise. It's tax season, right?

I just don't like being a squeaky-wheel greaser. It's stressing me out. It's amazing how much I've been avoiding it all; I do not want to be having an adversarial relationship with my lawyer.

Well, sorry for the hand-wringing. Fussing, that's all.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:11 PM
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240: if you back off from sounding dissatisfied, there's a pretty good chance they'll stop taking care of you

Oh, and sorry to keep at it, but in fact it's the contrary, in a way: they're taking too much care of me. We don't need this much care. An email today would have sufficed, for example; I didn't need a half-hour phone call. And no, we didn't need a list of suggested real estate appraisers for the properties, which resulted in a half-hour charge, when actually we just went with someone we happened to know of.

Yep, okay, done now.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:24 PM
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I just don't like being a squeaky-wheel greaser. It's stressing me out.

Yeah, I hate situations where complaining is supposed to be the default way things get done. Super stressful. Good luck with everything, p.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:43 PM
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131: That is, I don't think there's some veldt explanation at all

Agreed. The veldt explanation may say that there's some small marginal advantage to one sort of reproductive pattern over another.

However, on the social side, it's likely that if there's serious unhappiness about who is fucking whom then there'll be a 48% increased probability of schism and civil war in which 82% of the reproductive age population is exterminated (to make up some numbers).

People need cooperative groups to survive and reproduce. Behaviors that strengthen the group are likely to be far, far more important and completely swamp whatever genetic effect there may be.

It's also important to remember that not everything that's genetic is universal (think blue eyes).

Nor is everything that's universal, genetic. Think language. There's a universal genetic potential for language, but without the proper social environment an individual will never have a language. The wild (feral) children - those raised in closets - show this.


Posted by: Michael H Schneider | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:47 PM
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246: Thanks. And I will stop complaining! Here. Appreciate people's patience.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 7:48 PM
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OK, back. It was delicious. And filling - they're very conscientious about the fact that they're giving you 7 courses, so it's not too much, but I had a late lunch before I knew that we'd be going out. Still a bit distended (and when the courses are small, it's not like you're going to box up - "Could I have this slice of pork tenderloin to go? Thanks.").

Also, yay Pens, boo Bucs, yay Mets. 'night all.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:04 PM
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when the courses are small, it's not like you're going to box up - "Could I have this slice of pork tenderloin to go? Thanks."

Sez you.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 8:58 PM
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I'm not imaginative or skillful enough to pull off pretending to be female.

Motions, and especially oppositions and replies are usually going to run based on when something was filed. Merits briefs more likely to run on a schedule. Even then you don't have to use all the time: I have a summary judgment argument in a couple of weeks, and the deadline for motions won't be for another week after that. If I don't win on the theories I have now, I can try new grounds later.


Posted by: CharliCarp | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:03 PM
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You folks should definitely trade up.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:13 PM
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243 -- not until next week. Lots of time to overthink it. You should probably keep me him in your prayers.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:13 PM
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252: One of twelve kids, and related to circus performers. Including this one.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:28 PM
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You're gonna have to seriously up your game, Charley.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 9:29 PM
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Seriously.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:24 PM
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Up!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:25 PM
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247: But any two children will inevitably develop language. 247. last could as easily read:
There's a universal genetic potential for language sex, but without the proper social environment an individual will never have a language sex.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:30 PM
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Seriously up yourself
And be a drag


Posted by: Bob Marley | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 10:47 PM
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People need cooperative groups to survive and reproduce. Behaviors that strengthen the group are likely to be far, far more important and completely swamp whatever genetic effect there may be.

But behaviors also have a genetic component.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:21 PM
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For example the Westermarck effect may be something akin to imprinting or the language instinct, where the genetic potential's there and with the right conditions (i.e. growing up with someone, or raising someone, or being raised by someone) it manifests.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:22 PM
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or the language instinct

In some ways a fraught example.

But yeah, there's no genetic component to the fact that we engage in group-strengthening behaviors? Really? Come on now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:33 PM
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262: I agree, you brahmin motherfucker!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:44 PM
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But then maybe that's just my genes!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:44 PM
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264: TCTGAAA is the best frat around, man.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:53 PM
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265: Huh?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:55 PM
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Look, I could have called it GATTACA, but I hate that movie. I could have called it TAG or CAT or ALGAGALAGLALAG but I thought it would be too inexplicable. I did my fucking best over here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 8-09 11:59 PM
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267: Got it. My bad (genes).


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 12:06 AM
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I personally find it amusing to read Mr. Tweety's comments in the voice of Charles Emerson Winchester III.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 12:32 AM
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Look here, foolishmortal, if we're stuck on this island with no butler, I'm just going to have to have some help with my daily rectal massage.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 12:37 AM
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I myself prefer the voice of Donald Duck.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 12:59 AM
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Fascinatingly, my real voice oscillates widly between those two poles.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 1:03 AM
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Also, sometimes I confuse Charles Winchester and Thurston Howell.

Also, Korea is an island.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 1:04 AM
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Korea isn't an island, you silly tweety bird. Also, it has no roads at all.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 1:24 AM
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I'm not a bird.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 1:27 AM
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I'm not a plane.


Posted by: Unpronounceable Awl | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 4:10 AM
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174: M/tch, 171 was badly phrased. I was just concurring with you that the person who said something rather controversial, namely that the universality of the incest taboo is controversial should damn well sign his/her name.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 5:53 AM
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But behaviors also have a genetic component.

Yes, certainly. e.g. a group whose members only have one arm is rather unlikely to develop a social symbol such as applause. But it's a long leap from saying 'there's a genetic component' to saying such things as 'because there's a small but measurable genetic advantage to certain breeding patterns, cross cousin marriage with exogomy is mandated by nature'. (I'm exaggerating, again)

... where the genetic potential's there and with the right conditions (i.e. growing up with someone, or raising someone, or being raised by someone) it manifests.

Right, but which is more likely:

1. a genetic predisposition to not finding people one grows up with sexually attractive; or

2. a genetic predisposition to paying attention to social rules and cues of all sorts, and to the symbols which mediate social interactions (including sex as an interaction with symbolic importance, and including language)?

There's a universal genetic potential for language sex, but without the proper social environment an individual will never have a language sex.

It's not just sex, it's the complex set of rules around sex - when, with whom, etc.


Posted by: Michael H Schneider | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 6:04 AM
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There's a complex set of rules? That explains 90% of the embarrassing situations I've experienced in my life.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 7:41 AM
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280

I didn't realize until this second that you can use Google Maps to peer inside North Korea. I'm looking at you right now, Mr. Kim.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 7:47 AM
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280: You're worried that he's going to die soon so you're, um, "stocking up" now?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05- 9-09 8:23 AM
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282

What other occasion do you get to sing _Greensleeves_ with your family??


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-10-09 10:31 PM
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re:snuff: cannibal holocaust seems like an interesting story, but i get queasy watching anything much more violent than hamburger production. I hate horror movies; 'meet the parents' was more than enough tension for me.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-10-09 11:26 PM
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