Re: Plus my pipes leak all over the place now.

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Yeah, the two years or so after conception of a kid are a very, very biologically gendered time; you are completely a mammal for that period, and your body isn't completely your own.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:30 AM
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Jammies transcends his gender as a parent - I mean this in terms of cheap clichés about fathers doing less work -

This is reckless. As soon as you give him credit for doing something right, he's bound to start backsliding.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:30 AM
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I know I'm doing the state-the-obvious dance here

none of this is obvious on Unfogged. Admitting anything veldt-related has real significance is verboten.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:33 AM
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you are completely a mammal for that period

Thing is, though, we're completely mammals from conception until death, and all mammals show sex-based behavioral differences, including outside of the basic reproductive/rearing functions.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:34 AM
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Oh, I had assumed the incontinence was just during the period of hospitalization. Sorry heebs.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:34 AM
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5: She may mean her boobs.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:35 AM
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I do mean my boobs! The downstairs isn't a problem anymore, as long as I, um, evacuate completely before going jogging.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:37 AM
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I think the team that wins will be whoever has the most points at the end of the game

Canonically, John Madden (as much as I try to hate Frank Caliendo, he gets Madden right).


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:37 AM
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Eg., I learned at yesterday's "Gender in the Workplace" that male humans like to solve problems but female humans just want to talk about feelings and empathize. This is because women, like vaginas, want to wrap their minds around things and take everything in as fully as possible while men, like dicks, just want to drive straight to the point.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:38 AM
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9 is awesome.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:39 AM
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because women, like vaginas

Men like them too!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:40 AM
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while men, like dicks,

Men like them too!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:40 AM
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12: They are our very best friends, it's true.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:42 AM
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9: Barf. I got that speech once at the Baths while Dave and I were discussing my ex's irrational obsession with acquiring tools for things he doesn't do. "You see," says a voice out of the steam, "men are logical whereas women are emotional, and that's why you and your ex didn't see eye to eye about things!" WTF is logical about buying grappling hooks when you're a Brooklynite who is afraid of heights?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:43 AM
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our very best friends

My nursing pillow is technically called "My Breast Friend", and I think it's extremely hilarious to only refer to it by it's proper name, as in, "Hey Jammies, while you're up, can you grab My Breast Friend from the living room? I think Hawaii wants to nurse."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:44 AM
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9 is sort of sexy.

Sex differences are ubiquitous, but very subtle and woven into personality and cultural differences that are much more important. They're like an inflection. And the differences that do exist rarely align all that well with the stereotypes.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:45 AM
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All we like sheep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:46 AM
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"You see," says a voice out of the steam, "men are logical whereas women are emotional, and that's why you and your ex didn't see eye to eye about things!"

like, for example, this stereotype is complete garbage. Men are forever projecting their own emotionality onto women.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:47 AM
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Men are forever projecting their own emotionality onto women.

I spent the other evening telling Jammies that he must be really tired by now, and I should watch Hawaii while he went to bed. He kept saying, "I'm fine. I stay up this late all the time on weekdays," until finally it dawned on me that I was completely exhausted and wanted to go to sleep, and was just projecting.

It's a really weird sensation to catch yourself projecting. The other situation that I do it a lot is when I start obsessing that a group of people is annoyed with me. Nine times out of ten, that means I'm finding them annoying, and I just need to step back and not try to ingratiate myself with this group.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:51 AM
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All we like sheep.

The discussion of New Zealand is in the other thread.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:51 AM
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like, for example, this stereotype is complete garbage. Men are forever projecting their own emotionality onto women.

A-fucking-men!!!

The canonical example being this classic:

FEMALE: Hey, we need to address this issue about the thing.
MALE: Why are you so emotional about this thing?
FEMALE: Emotional? Huh? No, the end of the quarter is coming up and we need some answer on the issue before then.
MALE: Okay, calm down. We'll talk about the thing. There's no need to get upset.
FEMALE: Seriously, not upset. Now, about the thing --
MALE: Look, I don't think it's going to be productive to discuss this if you are going to be so emotional about it. Maybe we should do this another time.
FEMALE: ??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:52 AM
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14: I got a variation of that speech when a woman I know explained to me that her 2-year-old daughter really loved to vacuum and to clean and to take care of everyone, whereas her drooling, pre-verbal 3-month-old son was very into engineering and problem solving.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:56 AM
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Hawaiian Punch always bursts into tears when anything goes wrong. A boy baby would be much more rational. You're just hungry, little girl! Calm down!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:57 AM
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(Of course, venting my annoyance about the seminar thing is not dispelling the myth of emotionality. I just want you guys to understand and empathize. Because, on the veldt, I had babies tethered to my boobs all the time and couldn't get up to do anything productive so I had to sit around empathizing and soliciting empathy all day.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:57 AM
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23: Actually, if she were a boy, the underlying sexual differentiation would express itself by producing what might appear to be exactly the same tears, but for completely different reasons. She is helplessly sad when hungry; he, on the other hand, would be dominant and angry.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:00 AM
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23, 25: And we would hug and comfort her and would tell him to walk it off.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:01 AM
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My little two year-old son is in the middle of a hilarious oedipal phase at the moment. He is constantly vigilant against against any sign of affectionate physical contact between myself and Mrs Gonerill and, if any is observed, he descends on us like a tiny, poorly-coordinated, ululating ninja and attempts to kill me.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:04 AM
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Yeah, it's true, and this is why maternity leave and other-parent leave ought to be two separate concepts for at least the first year after birth. (I see LB says two years, and as I haven't done it, I'll take her word for it...)

After that one can just split it down the middle or transfer it as necessary, but for the first year, it's definitely the birth mother who needs the paid time off work....


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:06 AM
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I actually sort of like trying to come up with vaguely accurate stereotypes (which is difficult to do in the case of sex differences in personality not directly linked to mating strategies, because the sexes are not very different personalitywise). But anyway, if I *had* to come up with a stereotype about emotionality vs. practicality in men and women, it would if anything be the reverse -- men are more emotional than women, and testosterone has a more intense mood impact than estrogen. At least in our culture, women do seem to be more emotionally expressive than men (cry more often, complain or celebrate more often...I think this is pretty clearly cultural though), but I think the underlying emotional freakout factor is stronger in men. It's possible that's because we're not as free to express stuff, though.

Sex differences are weird because straight people are so emotionally invested in the opposite sex that we almost can't help but project a ton of shit on them...everything we can't deal with about our own romantic frustrations or desires is going to end up entangled with our feelings about the opposite sex.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:06 AM
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They are our very best friends, it's true.

More like being Siamese twin to the village idiot.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:07 AM
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Sex differences are weird because straight people are so emotionally invested in the opposite sex that we almost can't help but project a ton of shit on them...everything we can't deal with about our own romantic frustrations or desires is going to end up entangled with our feelings about the opposite sex.

Oh, on this I learned that men only share emotional intimacy when they are getting or trying to get laid. Women are just emotionally intimate willy nilly with everyone they meet.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:10 AM
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22: some minor kitchen reorganization left us with a small hole in the kitchen floor that leads directly to the basement. One of my children discovered that this hole would be the perfect place to store the broom, upside down. This is where we keep the broom now. Both of my kids love to use the broom, and if I every try to sweep something up they grab the broom and insist on doing it for me (then start fighting over who gets to use it, and eventually start hitting each other with it). If it weren't for the Roomba, no actual dirt would ever leave the floor.


Posted by: Molly | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:10 AM
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women do seem to be more emotionally expressive than men (cry more often, complain or celebrate more often...I think this is pretty clearly cultural though), but I think the underlying emotional freakout factor is stronger in men.

Somewhere in his diaries Alan Bennett says something like, "Well, one must take it like a man. Which means that one must take it like a woman -- i.e. without complaint."


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:10 AM
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30 is awesome.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:11 AM
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He is constantly vigilant against against any sign of affectionate physical contact between myself and Mrs Gonerill and, if any is observed, he descends on us like a tiny, poorly-coordinated, ululating ninja and attempts to kill me.

And here I thought she learned TKD for the exercise. Instead, she wisely planned ahead for self-defense.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:13 AM
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28: I was counting pregnancy as part of the whole 'your body isn't your own' experience. First year of the kid's life is plenty, I'd think in general, for maternity leave.

29: I actually sort of like trying to come up with vaguely accurate stereotypes

You and everyone else.

Part of the hostility to all the 'on the veldt' nonsense that's been mocked above is that, while apo's 4 isn't much overstated (there are some mammals where behavioral differences outside of reproductive behavior aren't significantly marked), in humans any biological differences in behavior are clearly swamped by culture. That's not a claim they don't exist, but that it's hopeless trying to separate them out from culturally created differences.

Like, I'd buy your "Men are more emotional" thing, but I can also come up with a dozen cultural just so stories for it. Doesn't mean I'm right, but I can't imagine how you'd successfully pick the forces apart.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:13 AM
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28
maternity leave and other-parent leave ought to be two separate concepts for at least the first year after birth. (I see LB says two years, and as I haven't done it, I'll take her word for it...)

Are you referring to the first comment? LB says "two years or so after conception". That's about 15 months after birth, at least in humans.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:14 AM
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how you'd successfully pick the forces apart

Large Hard-on Collider?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:16 AM
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19 is great. You're a standup comedian's mother already!

"She would always say 'I'm cold. Put on a jacket.'"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:16 AM
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Instead, she wisely planned ahead for self-defense.

Yeah, except it's me the little bugger is trying to do in.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:17 AM
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40: This clearly requires more displays of affection until the tiny ninja gives up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:18 AM
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40: This clearly shows that she has cultivated her floodlike qi such that he picks the weaker target.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:22 AM
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I'll comment on this as soon as I finish breastfeeding Kai.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:22 AM
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OK, done.

What I really wanted from Iris was a tomboy, but she's the girliest girly-girl who ever put on 3 princess gowns*, a tu-tu, and a cape in order to play with her Polly Pockets. Meanwhile, Kai, at 10 months, can literally throw a ball farther than Iris can at age 5. Sometimes I just need to sit down and breath deeply.

[OTOH, Iris loves her workbench that AB found at Goodwill, and kept bugging me to take her to Home Depot to buy tools. And Kai, of course, cries all the time, just like a girl]

* thanks, Grandpa's girlfriend. You fuck.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:33 AM
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She is helplessly sad when hungry; he, on the other hand, would be dominant and angry.

It amazes me how angry-seeming both of my babies have been. Strong-willed; I recall one of Iris' day care teachers, when she was like 1, saying, "Iris really knows what she wants. Still true.

Not that this isn't typical small child behavior, but it's still striking.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:35 AM
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"Such findings, along with work that shows family life to be a drain on testosterone levels, prompted Rutgers University sex researcher Helen Fisher to advise this month that males in the "captivity situation"-her term for married with kids-"go on the Internet and look at porn" as a kind of hormone-replacement therapy. "[Porn] drives up dopamine levels, which drives up your testosterone," she tells NEWSWEEK, while kissing your wife or hugging your kids drives it down.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:36 AM
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Meanwhile, Kai, at 10 months, can literally throw a ball farther than Iris can at age 5.

I hate to attribute misuse of the word literally to someone whose writing I generally respect, but if this is true, that's not normal "boys are like this, girls are like that"; one of your children is very unusual. Did you actually mean that literally?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:37 AM
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46: That charge on the credit card. Newsweek says I need to.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:40 AM
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45: One of the most disturbing things about parenting was having unusually verbally precocious children. Knowing what a 2 year old is thinking, expressed in clear, complete sentences, is unsettling. Sally, at somewhere around that age, told a little girl who had thwarted her somehow in the sandbox that she was going to cut her up and eat the pieces.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:40 AM
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To have a biological child (on the veldt), women have to totally warp their selves.

Except that, on the veldt, nobody had a self to be warped, or not in the sense that we now mean by "self."


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:41 AM
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49, I wonder if I said things like that. My parents mostly tell me about the instances when two-year-old me said things like "I think I'll have a wee nap", or asked a waitress if they had hard-boiled eggs.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:44 AM
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What I really wanted from Iris was a tomboy, but she's the girliest girly-girl who ever put on 3 princess gowns

Don't give up hope, JRoth! Rory was soooo princessy at 5, and I mourned a little inside, not knowing at all what to do with girly. But now she turns her nose up in scorn at anything she deems too girly.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:44 AM
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29:men are more emotional than women, and testosterone has a more intense mood impact than estrogen.

Yeah. I've seen more men do far more self- and other-destructive idiotic things under the influence of strong emotion. The smashing fist into wall and then having to go to the the ER schtick is one good example. Some men will actually do that.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:48 AM
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Did you actually mean that literally?

Might be literal. I've witnessed the same in roughly the same ages (5 and 1). I think the difference was that the girl in question was trying to throw a ball somewhere particular (with poor technique), and the boy was just trying to throw it far (with excellent technique). He always loved to throw things though, and could get impressive distance from a high chair. At some point he figured out that a straight arm approach could really fly --- but direction was pretty much random over 180 degrees or so.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:48 AM
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unusually verbally precocious children

Over the past month, Cassidy seems to have cracked the language code and watching the new words accumulate is like a snowball rolling down a hill. Such a weird experience, and it somehow doesn't get any less amazing with subsequent children.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:49 AM
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Some 1-year-olds can throw farther than some major league baseball players.


Posted by: Lookouty McLanding | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:50 AM
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Some men will actually do that.

Some men will even do it twice.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:51 AM
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57: I kinda wish I hadn't read that. I may cringe for the remainder of the day.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:52 AM
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48. Paying for porn when you can get it for free is bad internet behavior


Posted by: Porny | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:53 AM
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59: I'm very picky about how I raise my testoterone level.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:55 AM
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When I was about 7 and my sister was 3 a kid we were playing with threatened to kill me because I pissed him off somehow. I responded "You'll go to prison" and my sister backed me up with "And you'll have to clean up the mess."


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:55 AM
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44, 52: So many small children go through a phase of wanting to dress up in the fanciest clothes available to them, and have all the glitz and glitter they are allowed to pile on. Boys are usually rapidly discouraged away from this while girls get to enjoy it for as long as they can until the social cognition kicks in that being girly is definitely inferior to being a tomboy.

Which, while I went through the exact same set of stages myself (and being a tomboy is way more comfortable) is kind of sad, when you subject it to feminist analysis: maybe if we lived in a non-patriarchal society I'd still enjoy swanning about in a fancy dress, glitter, glitz, and a tinsel tiara. Which I haven't since I was five and can hardly believe I did, except there is photographic evidence...


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 10:59 AM
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"And you'll have to clean up the mess."

This is what I tell Rory when she's doing something that I believe could lead to the cracking open of her head. "Do what you want, kid, but I'm not cleaning up the blood if you fall."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:00 AM
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55: It's funny, neither of mine seemed to add words in any identifiable way. Sally babbled in a very languagey sounding way, and then it gradually became clear that she wasn't babbling, she was talking. No isolated words -- babbled "sentences" segued smoothly into English sentences. Newt, I remember a couple of isolated words (one great coinage -- 'lala' was lollipop, leading to 'meat lala' for drumstick), but he went babble to sentences pretty fast too.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:00 AM
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61: Actually in the UK the police have recommended cleaning firms for the mess, but it would be spooky if your sister knew that at age 3.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:00 AM
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I may cringe for the remainder of the day.

It's still cringeworthy when I remember it, nearly 20 years on... and the sound was something else.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:03 AM
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Except that, on the veldt, nobody had a self to be warped, or not in the sense that we now mean by "self."

I think the whole modern self-improvement type self, something to be developed privately and separately from the demands of society and nature, would have been seen as a ridiculous indulgence of wealthy aristocrats up until pretty recently.

And of course aristocrats had wet nurses.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:03 AM
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47: Literally literally.

Iris' best throw is probably better than Kai's. But if you had them throw 5 times in a row, Kai's distance would unquestionably be greater - he's drawn to balls, picks them up, and makes a throwing motion. Iris often sends balls backwards. I always blamed myself, but Kai has shown me that it's a matter of nature, not nurture.

I will admit that it would be easier to get Iris to throw a ball 5 times in a row without mouthing it or banging it against the floor. Because girls are more verbal.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:04 AM
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I hate to attribute misuse of the word literally to someone whose writing I generally respect

is cute, btw.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:05 AM
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I responded "You'll go to prison"

Where does this come from? It must be a powerful concept for the young child; it's not something we've ever really talked about, but it comes readily to their minds. The other day, for instance, I told Maura she had to take a time out, and she angrily responded, I don't want a time out! I want you to go to jail!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:05 AM
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I remember loving ball games from a very early age. Loved to throw them against the wall and catch them over and over again.

Also loved pretending sticks were weapons, from very early.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:08 AM
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70: But doesn't mass media shape a typical (even fairly young) childs view of the larger world more than their parents efforts can? There's a gazillion ways in which they can get the cops/robbers/jail message, I'd think.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:08 AM
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Loved to throw them against the wall and catch them over and over again.

I see. And how did that make you feel?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:11 AM
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I once was babysitting my youngest sister, who responded to a reasonable request from me to stop doing something destructive with a withering glare and "it's a free country." She couldn't have been more than three.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:14 AM
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Which, while I went through the exact same set of stages myself (and being a tomboy is way more comfortable) is kind of sad, when you subject it to feminist analysis: maybe if we lived in a non-patriarchal society I'd still enjoy swanning about in a fancy dress, glitter, glitz, and a tinsel tiara.

Yeah, I've had this discussion/thought process. I don't mind the dressup per se; it's the associated narratives. Iris plays all sorts of imaginative games, and is often the hero, but she doesn't reject out of hand stories of passive females and heroic males, and it drives me nuts.

Athene, at least, is a pretty good role model (and we haven't had to address the parthenos part; one book glossed her as "too busy" to marry, which does fine for now).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:16 AM
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Loved to throw them against the wall and catch them over and over again.

PGD is Steve McQueen!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:21 AM
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but she doesn't reject out of hand stories of passive females and heroic males

It really is hard to find narratives which cast girls as the hero without being some sort of marginalize Liftetime chickflick drivel. Stories about boys are for everyone; stories about girls are for girls.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:21 AM
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68: Iris' best throw is probably better than Kai's. But if you had them throw 5 times in a row, Kai's distance would unquestionably be greater - he's drawn to balls, picks them up, and makes a throwing motion. Iris often sends balls backwards. I always blamed myself, but Kai has shown me that it's a matter of nature, not nurture.

This really doesn't sound to me like good evidence of nature rather than nurture.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:23 AM
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64: My mom always described how I refused to talk forever, pointing and grunting for what I wanted. But when I started, it was with full sentences (which she always compared to William F Buckley's). Similarly, my parents never knew I could read until I asked a question about an article (on the space program, naturally) in the Times.

We thought Kai had his first word - "meh-meh" - for food, but it seems to be a general "gimme" concept. Still a word, of course, but not especially advanced. He loves bananas, and will sometimes almost-mimic that word ("meh-meh-meh").

I don't recall much about Iris developing language except one time (6 months or younger, IIRC) in her exer-saucer she was uncannily mimicking the cadence of adult conversation. I was busy baking, but it was so clear that I stopped what I was doing to look.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:24 AM
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Athene, at least, is a pretty good role model (and we haven't had to address the parthenos part; one book glossed her as "too busy" to marry, which does fine for now).

Plus Athene will occasionally spill black blood onto the ground, something that one really shouldn't do in a dress.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:28 AM
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This really doesn't sound to me like good evidence of nature rather than nurture.

I was kind of kidding, but I said it because, when I would bemoan Iris' poor throwing, I would always say, "I blame myself for not modeling throwing to her more." But I haven't modeled it to Kai any more than I did to Iris.

It was not within my power to make Iris a good thrower at 10 months, nor did I cause Kai to succeed. Nature.

By contrast Iris' predilection for Victorian turns of phrase can be laid pretty clearly at nurture's feet.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:29 AM
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This really doesn't sound to me like good evidence of nature rather than nurture.

Let alone evidence that the difference derives specifically from sex.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:30 AM
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80: Back then, Athene got a new dress only once a year. But now, we have washing-machines, with programs to take even the blackest of blood out of a nice dress.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:32 AM
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72: But they're six, and, uh, I don't even have a teevee*. I can't think of any of their books that would reinforce the message.

*This should probably be accorded acronym-level status. IDEHATV.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:33 AM
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doesn't sound to me like good evidence of nature rather than nurture

My younger brother, while slightly less athletic overall than me, had a much cleaner, more natural throwing and batting motion from as far back as I can recall. I was a better runner and kicker. No gender-typing at work there; some people are just naturally better at certain activities than others.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:37 AM
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while slightly less athletic overall than me

...as a kid. He's probably got the upper hand now.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:38 AM
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But they're six, and, uh, I don't even have a teevee*

They have friends and school, right? Even without at TV, six is way to old to imagine they aren't well and truly exposed. I was told by a 4 1/2 year old in great detail about an upcoming movie character even though his parents a) had no TV b) had no related books or other tie-ins and c) tried hard to (passively) discourage his interest. He hadn't even got to school age, but neighborhood friends and playschool were enough.

Unless you live in an isolated Amish village, or a northern outpost (pop 11) or whatever, the mass market has a good go at them. If you try really really hard, you can almost manage to have it not be an overwhelming majority of what your kids take in, I suspect.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:38 AM
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in her exer-saucer she was uncannily mimicking the cadence of adult conversation

This is one of my favorite baby-babble activities. They babble, I respond enthusiastically, "Is that so?" They babble some more, I respond as if we're having an intelligent conversation. Great fun for all.

Come to think of it, this works well with senior partners, too.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:41 AM
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Let alone evidence that the difference derives specifically from sex.,

Oh good lord, no! I didn't mean to hint that it did. I only told the stories as an example of confounded gender-equality expectations.

For context, I should note that my sister, mother, and wife all would have qualified as tomboys for at least some parts of their lives. I don't know where Iris got it from (presumably day care, but still...).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:44 AM
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some people are just naturally better at certain activities than others.

This. I'm actually quite good at throwing, whether it's a football, baseball, or a soccer throw-in (I was called upon to do almost every one during my brief soccer career). I still have very good accuracy and can throw fairly far for a woman who's not particularly fit.

I have basically no other significant athletic ability beyond the ability to throw. And it sure as hell wasn't "modeled" for me by anyone--my dad can't throw for shit.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:46 AM
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Followup to 90: Although I did play baseball and then softball from grades 2-9, so that may have something to do with it. But even in that, I was never any good at any part of it but throwing. Horrible batter, poor-to-mediocre fielder, and mediocre runner.

This mean that in 6th grade girls softball I got to be pitcher despite the fact that I wasn't really any good as a player, before the other girls learned how to throw. Very funny.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:49 AM
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Except that, on the veldt, nobody had a self to be warped, or not in the sense that we now mean by "self."

I think the whole modern self-improvement type self, something to be developed privately and separately from the demands of society and nature, would have been seen as a ridiculous indulgence of wealthy aristocrats up until pretty recently.

It's like you people hadn't even heard of the Reformation.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:53 AM
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87: Oh, for sure. But at this point, I'm still pretty aware of what pop-culture stuff they're exposed to (their conception of Star Wars, which they've never seen, is particularly entertaining), and it's not difficult yet—yet!—to keep it from being a majority of what they take in.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:53 AM
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I'm still pretty aware of what pop-culture stuff they're exposed to

What are their email addresses? I have some links I want to send to them.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:54 AM
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I got to be pitcher despite the fact that I wasn't really any good as a player, at any other position.

Being a good pitcher is being a good player. No matter how much you would have sucked in centerfield, at shortstop, as a hitter...

Women tend to self-deprecate.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 11:56 AM
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||

Hey, SCMT shows up at Henley's place to mock Krauthammer's injury!

|>


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:07 PM
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95: m. needs to study up on David Wells.

93: AB & I are pretty anxious about Iris entering public school next year, from a pop culture POV. We realize our approach to media is totally SWPL, but Jesus, pop culture for kids is shit these days.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:10 PM
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I have some links I want to send to them.

"You know when you fart in the bathtub and it makes you giggle? Just wait til you see what some girls can do in the tub."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:18 PM
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pop culture for kids is shit these days

Did you have a better period in mind?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:20 PM
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IDEHATV.

Integrated development environment haz all-terrain vehicle?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:20 PM
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99: I would say that the 70s, with 2 hours of Warner Bros. cartoons on Saturday morning, pre-Elmo Sesame St., Electric Company, Free To Be You and Me, and old movies and reruns of I Love Lucy in the afternoons, had a lot less pernicious, kids-should-be-consumers, gender role-reinforcing stuff than, say, Disney TV.

I realize that the best of kids TV right now is very good. But it's Hannah Montana and High School Musical on every sparkly purple backpack I see, not whatever clever Nick show you all are about to tell me about.

I might add that I'm exceptionally displeased that Disney is working on Tinkerbell the Bitchy Fairy as the transitional object to get girls from Princesses to Hannah.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:30 PM
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99: Back when I was growing-up, we didn't need pop culture. We had a little something called Atari.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:30 PM
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I Love Lucy in the afternoons, had a lot less pernicious [. . .] gender role-reinforcing stuff

This is a joke, right?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:33 PM
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83 is very funny.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:33 PM
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101: I am pleased to say that Rory watches almost no Disney channel -- with the exception of an occasional episode of Phineas and Ferb. Instead we just watch House together. And let me tell you, *that* has been some educational programming lately!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:36 PM
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I'm very partial to the Backyardigans. I don't like to watch it, but at least the Wonder Pets gives evidence that stoners can get jobs in the entertainment industry.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:46 PM
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Pop culture isn't great, but having grown-up in a household where almost no pop culture kids' stuff was permitted on the grounds that it was stupid, secular humanism, demonic, or anti-religious, I think it can be taken too far. Especially because my cohort in graduate school seems to have done just fine despite have been permitted to watch the Smurfs or G.I. Joe, etc. It's not the worst thing in the world to be pop culturally illiterate and socially awkward, but having watched Hannah Montana won't be incompatible with getting into Harvard.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:46 PM
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We seem to have settled on the Food Network as the main source of TV that the kids are interested in and I don't find too disturbing. It does have gender role stuff, but doesn't seem too pernicious generally.

Man, though, who knew there was such an appetite for competitive cake decorating shows? Given that they're not about the cake as food -- it's all fondant and food coloring -- it's really competitive impromptu sculpture with weak materials, which seems like a really odd genre of entertainment.

Come to think of it, the Art Channel, with the same sort of bizarre sports/game show aspect as Food Network, would be a hoot.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:47 PM
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(and they watch Saturday morning cartoons ad lib. Most of them suck, but I haven't got the energy to pick and choose what I approve of.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:48 PM
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This is a joke, right?

I know, I caught that as I was writing it. But the stuff that was being produced for kids was very consciously working to counter that. For the vast majority of what's being produced for kids now, that is no longer true (Dora is the obvious counterexample, except that the little girls I know all think that Diego is the cool one, not merely a sidekick).

IOW, the new stuff for kids was better on gender, the old stuff for kids was less commercial, and the old shows and movies (which we watched because there was no Nick or Disney TV) wasn't marketing to kids at all. Which, to my mind, adds up to less pernicious overall.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:55 PM
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My boy is into Diego and Dora about equal, but he's really sweet on Diego's sister and she's really just a bit player.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 12:58 PM
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It's not the worst thing in the world to be pop culturally illiterate and socially awkward

When I got to college and met kids like this (like the woman who'd never had McDonald's), I thought it was ridiculous. But then, I was a sexist, consumerist little conservative, so of course I would.

Pop culture is made neither for nor by people who share my values; I don't want my kids in a bubble, but I don't see any reason that I should just lie down for it.

BTW, I'm not actually this uptight IRL. But raising a girl in this culture makes me feel militant (raising a boy may do so also, but it's easier for me to imagine being sanguine about dinosaur or space obsession; I'd probably struggle with more militaristic themes).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:00 PM
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111: I do love that about kids - Hephaistos and Thetis play an outsize role in our storytelling mostly because of an illustration in one book showing baby Hephaistos falling down from Olympos (after which he was caught by Thetis).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:05 PM
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Man, though, who knew there was such an appetite for competitive cake decorating shows?

I didn't, but my local supermarket has a poster advertising an appearance by some Food Network cake-decorator. I tell you what, the stack of chocolate fondant-covered cakes with Arts Nouveau cutout is pretty sexy.

Funny, til this moment I never connected the local Midwives' Center's annual cake decorating contest with a larger cultural phenomenon. This year there was a very unfortunate structural failure in one of the amateur entries.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:08 PM
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"This year there was a very unfortunate structural failure in one of the amateur entries."

That's what she said.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:10 PM
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Sorry.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:11 PM
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95: Well, I wasn't in the MLB, so I didn't get to just pitch. Plus, I wasn't a particularly good pitcher, either, I was just more competent than all the other girls because none of them had ever been given a chance to pitch before.

Believe me, I'm not one for humility or unnecessary self-deprecation. I really wasn't good--I wanted to play in high school, but I couldn't get onto the team once there was a barrier known as "tryouts."


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:11 PM
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Well, I wasn't in the MLB American League, so I didn't get to just pitch.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:21 PM
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I recall one of Iris' day care teachers, when she was like 1, saying, "Iris really knows what she wants.

As a parent, I find it amazing how many ways people can soften the sentiment, "Your child is a horrible little shit."


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:23 PM
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119: Oh, absolutely.

We have gotten a bit of that from her current teacher, but the main complaint is the slowness with which she eats. But, speaking of inborn traits, she's been like this since birth - AB describes how one nursing would bleed into the next. She was stunned the first time Kai sucked vigorously for 5-10 minutes, then popped off, all done and ready to move on.

Yesterday morning, Iris spent the entire 15 minute walk to school nibbling her way through one (large) strawberry. She gets this from her grandmother (although she has nothing like my MIL's appetite; there are days when, literally, Kai consumes more food than Iris does).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:27 PM
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120: The amount eaten usually drops-off pretty quickly at some point int he second year. At least that's the way it's been with us. Our son at more at 20 months than he does a year later. He's still chunky, so the doc said to switch him to skim milk.

This is literally the penultimate thing I will have to say about children's eating habits in the thread.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:30 PM
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He also gets more crap on the floor when he eats now that when he first got good with a spoon. Don't know why, but I think he's just taunting us.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:31 PM
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122: This is what a dog is for; under-chair cleanup.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:46 PM
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I don't recall much about Iris developing language except one time (6 months or younger, IIRC) in her exer-saucer she was uncannily mimicking the cadence of adult conversation.

My son was a late speaker, but inclined toward echolalia when he was tiny. He was an uncanny imitator.

Long before he had any words of his own, he used to say, very clearly "[Mom's name]?, Yeah?" This usually happened when he was mildly troubled and wanted to see his mother. This went on for months before I figured out what he was doing.

I was changing his diaper one day and he began doing this. Then he started crying, so I figured I'd get his mother. I called out: "[Mom's name]?" and she responded, "Yeah?"

Likewise, he had a beautiful singing voice that was entirely imitation-based. Once he started talking for real, he no longer sang well.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:48 PM
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124: Sally was a similar mimic.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:50 PM
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125: I've noticed Noah, when frustrated, will mutter under his breath, "The fucking!"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:53 PM
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57: I need to lose some weight so thanks for the appetite suppressor, Soup. I missed that thread on its first go-around or managed to repress it. Gah!


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:55 PM
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their conception of Star Wars, which they've never seen, is particularly entertaining


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 1:59 PM
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pop culture kids' stuff

Total Drama Island and 6teen: discuss. I love them and so does my 8-year old. Telenovelas, basically wholesome, sarcastic presentation of standard sitcommy/reality tv stereotypes.

I grew up latchkey or urban roaming after school, this beats I dream of Jeanie and Hogan's Heroes hands down. Definitely better than figuring out which drunks are mean and how to shoplift snacks and comics.

IMO the real poison is the commercials. Since my kids other TV choices are documentaries, where the commercials are geriatrically oriented, I figure he's getting a sort of lesson there too.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:13 PM
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126: Rory used to mutter, "What the..."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:14 PM
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121: But Iris never ate very much. I remember being stunned to see her best friend eat an entire apple at age ~2, at a time when Iris (10 weeks older) had never eaten more than 1/3 apple at a sitting. What's astonishing about all this is that she's 90 percentile for height and 60 percentile for weight, and she's high energy. But she had basically no baby fat, and right now would probably sink in a pool.

The other day she barely touched her lunch, then didn't quite finish the remnants when they were served to her as dinner. It took her 24 hours to consume 3 strawberries, 3 slices of mortadella, and some walnuts. Probably a couple crackers in there.

I really don't know how this works. She certainly has days where she eats more normally, but still less than I see in her peers.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:16 PM
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131: Rory was like this too and my poor pediatrician probably got very, very tired of having to reassure me that children don't generally starve themselves to death. "But seriously, she never eats!" "Seriously, she's fine."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:31 PM
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Given the amount of swearing that goes on around here, it's a miracle that Iris hasn't picked it up. The other day AB overheard Iris and a friend sharing the "worst word:" fack. Sounded out very carefully.

I don't know how she could have gotten this, nor whether she was somehow protecting herself by not quite using the real bad word. But she seemed to think she wasn't being monitored, and really seemed to think that "fack" is the worst word of them all.

So I sent her to D^2's blog.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:31 PM
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Total Drama Island and 6teen

My kids love those shows. 6teen makes me hate canada.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:46 PM
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I had the opposite thought, which was: God, this huge physical difference is such a trivial difference.

Except for the boobs, everything was the same. In fact, he seemt to always know why she cried and I often misinterpreted her cries--except the hunger cry.

But maybe I had this thought in the second month. It was pretty intense at first. With pumps, formula, etc. I was actually kind of free in some amazing ways. (Oh, yeah, we did formula sometimes...but rarely. It was like the summer backup if keeping the milk on ice was not possible.)

I bagged enough juice to go to a conference--as did one of my friends, when she had her baby. He never went anywhere without her for at least the first 18 mos. So take that, veldt.


Posted by: ozma | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 2:55 PM
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Pop culture is made neither for nor by people who share my values; I don't want my kids in a bubble, but I don't see any reason that I should just lie down for it.

You shouldn't, but by any reasonable standard, you're not. You have a kindergartner who is obsessed by mythology. That is incredibly awesome, and will outweigh sparkly princess dresses encountered at school.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:02 PM
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I really don't know how this works.

My theory, based on observation, is that young children must be able to pull nutrients from the air.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:07 PM
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Breaking my rule from above. Our son seems to eat more the more expensive the food. We did Mother's Day at Eleven and he at like an adult.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:13 PM
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'ate like an adult'. Ooops. By the way, I meant 'like an adult' in terms of volume consumed, not table manners or anything.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:17 PM
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My theory, based on observation, is that young children must be able to pull nutrients from the air.

My ex-MIL held the belief that children need only sunlight for nutrition now and that's why "kids these days" are so fat. No, she was not allowed to be alone with Rory.

Also, I just looked up from my desk to see a man in the office across the street changing his clothes. Um, hello there!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:29 PM
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Was it hott?


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:36 PM
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Sadly, no.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:38 PM
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"The brain is just a series of (biological) tubes."

[ducks]


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 3:43 PM
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The brain is just a series of biological ducks?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:03 PM
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135: I had this reaction too. As I said in the first comment, bearing and nursing children felt like a huge, biological change from pre-maternal me -- as if my body had been taken over by this reproductive project. I didn't find myself reacting to it as a difference between me and Buck, though; I was stunned by the difference between old me and new me, not between me the mother and him the father.

That might have been because I was leaning on him very heavily for baby-competence, though. I'm the youngest in my generation of cousins, so never interacted with babies I was related to, and I only babysat for older kids. Buck, on the other hand, had wallowed in babies throughout his teens and early twenties. So we'd split tasks at first by me nursing, and then I'd hand her off and watch him to figure out how taking care of a baby worked.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:04 PM
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OT: Why is Matt Yglesias's blog talking to me every time I go there? And how can I make it stop?


Posted by: inaccessible island rail | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:13 PM
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A few posts down the page, there's an embedded video with autoplay set to on. AFAIK, you can't make it stop until that post rolls off the bottom of the page.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:18 PM
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147: Scroll down to the 'What is a Renewable Electricity Standard?' post. Stop the embedded audiofile. You can also disable your flash player.


Posted by: Tiny Hermaphrodite | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:19 PM
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Or you can just not get new speakers after your toddler yanks the wire out and breaks the cord.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:20 PM
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audio file s/b video


Posted by: Tiny Hermaphrodite | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:21 PM
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148: Thanks.


Posted by: inaccessible island rail | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:22 PM
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Right, you can manually stop it. But it's going to start talking every time you hit or reload the page unless Yggles goes in and edits the post.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:23 PM
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Man, that was a close one. I felt all scared and helpless! I was like "what's Yglesias saying today, that bastard," and as if it had read my mind his blog was attacking me, verbally, with energy policy. No amount of apologies or promises to read Heads In The Sand would make it stop.


Posted by: inaccessible island rail | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:29 PM
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Yglesias has a talking blog now? That's just funny. Well, heck, EOTW won't fix their comment threads for IE users, either.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:37 PM
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I need to lose some weight so thanks for the appetite suppressor, Soup.

Any time. This is a full service commetariat, after all.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 4:58 PM
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And how can I make it stop?

If you are running Firefox, you can snag a copy Flashblock, which d/ls the file, inserts a placeholder and then prevent flash from running the embed until you push the placeholder button. Very useful - FF is noticably less crashy, and while initial pageloads are still at the same rate, the page starts running sooner, plus, no random goddamn noise.

max
['On the veldt, all we had was ASCII, and we liked it by God. Built character.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:14 PM
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Thanks for this post. It's really, really hard to get people who haven't had kids to understand the way that having kids makes you fundamentally realize some shit, and there's something enormously gratifying about listening to other people go through that process.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:18 PM
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'On the veldt, all we had was ASCII, and we liked it by God. Built character.'

Pshaw. There was EBCDIC, too. Who could need more than 8 bits for a character map?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:24 PM
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Pshaw. There was EBCDIC, too.

Oh, {singsong} there was EBCDIC, says Mr. Cosmopolitan Elitist.

Who could need more than 8 bits for a character map?

These kids these days, always with the nybbling and byting you to death.

max
['It's like they never quit breastfeeding!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:39 PM
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Pshaw. There was EBCDIC, too.

I can remember building a BCD to 7 segment decoder using stone knives and bear skins, and it was uphill both ways.


Posted by: Michael H Schneider | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:42 PM
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Um. I remember ASCII. Whenever you all employ fancy characters and accents around here, I'm like, uh, what's the ASCII code for that?

I have never asked, though! Suspecting, as I do, that you are not using ASCII codes to make your Greek characters or your paragraph symbols.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:43 PM
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161: you don't have to, but you can use the ASCII character codes. If you enter &#123, where 123 is whatever ASCII code you want, the character associated with that code will show up.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 5:46 PM
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162: I assumed the ASCII codes would still work, though I don't remember many of them, and don't have a ASCII character map around any more. I mostly used to use it for the paragraph symbol when writing about the Philosophical Investigations.

What do you guys use instead? Out of curiosity, because it is after all time for me to stop being so out of the loop. Is it html, or is it just a virtual keyboard on the computer? Or what.

Sorry to be so dreadfully naive and earnest.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:06 PM
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What do you guys use instead?

HTML entities


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:12 PM
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Better list.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:14 PM
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IMO the real poison is the commercials.

FWIW, my 12-yo gets his share of pop culture but not a lot of commercials (TV is only connected to VCR and DVD player, so any commercials he gets are at others' houses), and I think that's helped somewhat. But I also think that some mix of parental influence, peer influence, and individual kid nature matters a lot more than what they're exposed to on TV.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:31 PM
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164, 165: Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:48 PM
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Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:52 PM
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Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:56 PM
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OT: We will be at Wolf Trap on Sat night if any DCers are around.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 6:58 PM
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I suspect nobody except me and a person or two in Pittsburgh care, but there's one hell of a hockey game on right now.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:26 PM
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Right now I'm getting the crummy Apple Symbols snowman. I prefer the one with the fez.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:28 PM
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171: I don't get Versus but have been following Pens-'Canes on the Web. Good game, good series.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:29 PM
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171: Defense worthy of the NHL All-Star game, though (i.e. almost none).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:30 PM
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Crap.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:45 PM
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Pretty good.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 7:47 PM
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108. Come to think of it, the Art Channel, with the same sort of bizarre sports/game show aspect as Food Network, would be a hoot.

Apparently there is a competitive art reality show in the works. Ed Winkleman is rather skeptical---and his commenters are almost unanimously appalled.

I don't think it would necessarily be so awful, though; Top Chef and that competitive fashion reality show with the dude from FIT aren't nearly as worthless as the dating or family-swapping shows.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 8:10 PM
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I think Will times his visits so I'll be out of town.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 8:11 PM
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I second B in 157.

Before I did the pregnancy/breastfeeding thing, I had a somewhat abstract, and perhaps (yeah, ya' think?) overly intellectualized, critique of radical individualism and modern, affluent western notions of autonomy. But. For a brief period, at least, I did experience the material realities of motherhood (pregnancy, but especially breastfeeding) as a profound, and at times somewhat disturbing, challenge to my, well, modern, affluent western notion of autonomy. To my (historically and culturally contingent, of course) sense of self, basically.

I think it's important to figure out a way of talking about this that doesn't concede too much to a norm that is basically, if unintentionally, masculinist and anti-maternal. So: talk of "getting your body back" or of "getting back to normal" makes me very uneasy indeed, because it seems to define significant life-changing events experienced only by, though not necessarily by and certainly not by all, women as aberrations from the norm, as weaknesses, or distortions, or failures to adhere to something silly and stupid in the first place.

I think American women need to look that "equality-versus-difference" dilemma in the eye, and dare to demand gender parity, even if that gender parity is based on an acknowledgment of gender difference in a certain, but important, area (in childbearing and breastfeeding, say). Which is how women in Canada and Europe achieved paid maternity leave, after all.

But it's not easy to do this on the internets, of course. And I suspect it was not easy for heebie to write this post, so: again, what B said in 157.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-21-09 9:55 PM
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163: I assumed the ASCII codes would still work, though I don't remember many of them, and don't have a ASCII character map around any more.

You mean like this?
▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█

What NickS said, but also Code Page 437 and the box drawing characters, for handy reference.

NB: special chars can be inserted, for example, this way Ψ (Ψ). However, Unicode characters are usually listed with their hexadecimal codes, so to display those, you would need to enter the hex code like this (for example): ▚ ▛▜▞ which would appear as ▚▛▜▞. If you enter ▙ as &2599; you get &2599;. If you enter it as &#2599 you get ਧ which is a different character. If you have the decimal equivalent though (in this case, 9625) you can enter it as ▙ which gives you &9625;.

None of that is really useful, but occasionally produces the quality entertainment, which is an unalloyed good.

max
['As far as I'm concerned.']


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-22-09 7:21 AM
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SPBBTH. Typical. Hit post instead of preview.

If you have the decimal equivalent though (in this case, 9625) you can enter it as ▙ which gives you ▙.

Or italicized! as ▙.

Also, characters may not render correctly in all browsers. U Hace Beent Warn-ed.

max
['FiXX0red.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-22-09 7:26 AM
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I am really looking forward to reading this thread later when I have more time. Just today I was wondering what I'd do differently with the information I have now about having a kid; first thing I thought was I would try to commit to either the attachment model (breastfeeding on demand, carrying everywhere etc.) or the politically appealing 50/50 division of labour one. I'd probably end up picking the first. Our partnership is still healing from my fury that the two do not go together, and we have completely different narratives of how the whole thing played out; my partner still believes he did 50% except for a few times, so we can't even really discuss those two years. It's hard to have that big a hot potato sitting around. I'm trying to let the whole thing go, and I think he's going to be a lot happier when I do. One thing for sure though, I love the one I've got, but I'm not having more kids.


Posted by: Penny | Link to this comment | 05-22-09 2:48 PM
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180: You are the planet-killer from the Star Trek original series episode "The Doomsday Machine," and I claim my five dollars.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-23-09 10:29 AM
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I think Will times his visits so I'll be out of town.

Says the Richmond-visiting Becks.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-23-09 10:40 AM
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