Re: Shut up about MJ already

1

I love this quote:

It is called the moonwalk cause it looks like you are running forward but you are not you are running backwards.

as I try to verify the moonwalk origins.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:01 AM
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1: I think the idea is that you're like the ocean in fact all of us are like the ocean and we're being pulled by the moon and so the moonwalk is really a reenactment of the tidal forces at work in all of us and indeed the entire universe.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:07 AM
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Actually, I'm pretty damn sure the origin is mimes.

As I recently mentioned, I not long ago rewatched Wild Style. There are some great scenes of kids competing at popping and locking and the like, and it's pretty obvious that there's a heavy mime influence at work.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:09 AM
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For a moment I was expecting the link to go here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:10 AM
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Yeah, Marcel Marceau apparently did call the move "Walking Against The Wind", but I can't verify if there was another, bouncier dance called "The Moonwalk". Seems plausible.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:11 AM
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Holy shit that video is amazing. Carl Weathers, Mayim Bialik and Brigitte Nielsen, together again for the very first time.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:13 AM
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5: I have seen mimes do a walk that sort of mimics what walking on the moon looks like. It's hard to imagine working it into a dance routine though. It looks pretty goofy and it's slow.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:13 AM
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7: MJ coulda done it, man.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:15 AM
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6: It really is, isn't it! For anyone on the fence about watching it, believe me that those three are just the tip of the iceberg.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:16 AM
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8: No doubt.

And if only he'd pioneered a dance called "Trapped in an Invisible Box".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:17 AM
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Mayim Bialik was a fan favorite as the star of the '90s sitcom, "Blossom." Now she is all grown up, the mother of two sons and holds a Ph.D in neuroscience from UCLA.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:37 AM
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When I'm Dictator for Life I will cage all mimes in invisible boxes. They will struggle and plead for help in vain.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:37 AM
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I like to mime that I'm surrounded by mimes.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:38 AM
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Damn, did Debbie Gibson look different before the nose job.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:44 AM
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Speaking of Wild Style, no more masturbating to Iz the Wiz.

Unrelated, no more masturbating to Man!festo Games either.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:51 AM
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11: I am oddly glad to know this.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:57 AM
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11: It is always nice to hear about a child star who turns out ok.

I've been wondering how much of the tragedy of Michael Jackson would have occurred if it would have been acceptable for him to at some point announce to the public "I'm gay."

Neil Patrick Harris seems like a level headed former child star, and I'm certain his ability to be matter-of-fact about his sexuality helped.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:02 AM
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I can't really search YouTube here at work, but later maybe I can find some footage of early 80s Bronx kids popping and locking so you can see what I'm talking about in 3. They often had cute little outfits too.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:04 AM
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Was he gay? I don't think I ever heard gossip about his being involved with a grown man (although I could miss almost anything, I'm not very attentive about gossip). He certainly had some kind of weird thing going on with little boys, whether actual pedophilia or something short of that, but I wouldn't think that would be any sort of a substitution for being straightforwardly gay.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:05 AM
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Whatever happened to Webster?


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:07 AM
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Where are all the uncannily childlike black adults of yesteryear?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:09 AM
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'Tis a ponderable for the ages. Or Google search.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:10 AM
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Gary Coleman became a character in Avenue Q; I don't know from the kid who played Webster.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:10 AM
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whether actual pedophilia or something short of that

Having spent a little too much time the other day reading the thread at Pandagon, this makes me cringe. But then I remember that this is Unfogged, and a reasonable claim like this isn't likely to invoke vehement accusations of "rape apologist" here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:11 AM
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Was he gay?

I doubt he was that easily categorizable.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:13 AM
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Nothing about that man adult person was categorizable.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:15 AM
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M/tch has a job?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:15 AM
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No, there is no direct evidence that he was gay. For that matter, he was cleared of all charges of child molestation.

My thought was that any issues he might have had with boys, both as a part of his public image and his private life, could be more easily dispelled if he could have had an open, healthy relationship with a grown man.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:15 AM
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To put it another way: He was not easily catagorizable, but if he had another category open to him, it might have made life easier.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:17 AM
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I don't think there was much chance of him having an open, healthy relationship with a grown anything. Check out this article, written 25 years ago.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:18 AM
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A brief search of the intertubes provided no interesting nuggets about Webster.

Is Bubbles still alive?


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:19 AM
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27: It's the damnedest thing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:20 AM
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To me, the likeliest story is that he sought to create the childhood he was deprived of. That included a childlike unbound sense of physicality -- an infantile-sexual, polymorphously perverse zone where he could get comfort and physical pleasure from snuggling and rolling around with the childhood friends he never knew, and not feel used as a performance object. That required elaborate performances and that requirement was probably driving him battier the whole time. Meanwhile it was impossible to securely enlist any other child in this re-creation of lost pre-sexual freedom, and so he ended up violating lots of adult boundaries and probably a few kids' as well.

This is one man's interpretation. I don't think MJ was trying to fuck kids, but I bet he was rolling around with them in ways that only a very few could be comfortable with.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:26 AM
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26 to 27
28 to 27
29 to 27
Not 30, though.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:26 AM
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Is Bubbles still alive?

Yes, he even had his life story published in the Baltimore Sun.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:28 AM
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I'd buy 33.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:30 AM
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19
Was he gay?

This article says he was. Via Andrew Sullivan, FWIW.

The link in 30 seems right. Which is odd considering its age, but then I guess the weird stuff had started by then, hadn't it. If you're under 30, Michael Jackson has been a creepy punchline for as long as you can remember.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:35 AM
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if he could have had an open, healthy relationship with a grown man anyone

We have no reason (that I know of) to think he was gay, nor any reason to think that he was as fucked up as he was because he couldn't be open about his sexuality identity, whatever it was. It seems far more likely to me that his being fucked up by family and fame interfered with any adult relationships. Being teh seekrit gay doesn't usually make people get noses that look like scary knives.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:36 AM
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Or what Wrongshore said with all his fancy words.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:37 AM
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Gay words, Kraab. Please.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:42 AM
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Anyone see the snippet of his father's random press conference on Rachel Maddow? His kid hasn't even been buried yet Papa Jackson was touting his new record label. A dad like that would fuck anyone up.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:45 AM
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33 may be correct, but for me there's no getting past the fact that he almost certainly did go over the line of sexual contact with children. When the whole thing blew up there were simply too many independent sources claiming the exact same behavior (rubbing his crotch against boys) for me to conclude that they were all making it up. Case by case I doubt there was anything that could stand up in court, certainly not with the level of legal representation you can get with hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. As a private citizen, OTOH, fuck reasonable doubt, and fuck that child molester.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:45 AM
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I know little and care less about Jackson's private inclinations. But I saw somewhere that his father is trying to get custody of his kids, and if it's true I think that should be resisted to the Supreme Court if necessary.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:45 AM
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The article in 37 consists almost entirely of facts I had never heard before.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:46 AM
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Yay Molly the Artist! You know, I had the closest thing she's having to a wedding reception for her recent quasi-elopement in the Flophouse backyard.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:51 AM
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Living in this world (which I realize he worked hard to help create) would drive anyone stark raving mad.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:51 AM
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Every time I see MJ dance, I think of Jackie Chan saying that none of his physical abilities are worth what he went through as a child in the Peking Opera.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:10 AM
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Re the vid:
1) No screen time for any actual Liberian girls. This was before the civil war, so I'm guessing that in 1989 it simply meant "some kinda African." African-Americans get to represent Africanness through dance/costuming, but they're just filler for the more important celebrity cut-aways.

2) Man it must have been sad to be John Travolta back then. It's good that he got another chance to be a mediocre lead actor rather than having to endlessly and arbitrarily recreate his role in Grease.

Corollary: Man, it must suck to be Olivia Newton-John.
(OTOH, it is, I suppose, possible that she has an entirely pleasant life outside of imdb-land.)


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:22 AM
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47: To be pedantic, he attended a Peking Opera School, but he was never "in the Peking Opera".

Also, it's terribly selfish of Jackie to draw such a conclusion. Whatever they did to him, I think it was totally worth it.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:24 AM
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I always thought Olivia Newton-John looked perpetually middle aged.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:25 AM
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It's true. Jackie wasn't really thinking of us, was he?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:25 AM
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it is, I suppose, possible that she has an entirely pleasant life outside of imdb-land

These days, I hope so. But she spent most of the 90s surviving breast cancer, which is why she went of the radar so completely.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:35 AM
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52: Huh. I'm a little surprised I missed that, although it's possible that I knew it 15 years ago.

17.last: Neil Patrick Harris is gay? I don't think so. I knew a couple dudes who picked him up hitchhiking once, and he wouldn't shut up about trying to get some p******g. I suppose he could have been overcompensating, but you're saying that he's openly gay. Something doesn't add up.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:52 AM
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That picture in the "Molly the Artist" link in the post—I was there.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:53 AM
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Have I mentioned in the last 5 minutes how goddamn sick I am of everybody getting cancer?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:53 AM
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55 to 52.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:54 AM
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Maybe by "matter of fact about his sexuality" rob just meant "matter of fact about his sexuality" and not "matter of fact about his homosexuality".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:54 AM
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Neil Patrick Harris is gay? I don't think so. I knew a couple dudes who picked him up hitchhiking once, and he wouldn't shut up about trying to get some p******g.

Were your friends named Harold and Kumar?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:55 AM
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Yeah, NPH is kinda out.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:57 AM
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I think NPH has to pretend to be gay to get ahead in Hollywood.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:59 AM
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58: I'm not sure I've ever seen apo cross-post from Standpipe's blog before.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:01 AM
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60: Too bad Tom Cruise didn't stick with that instead of falling in with L. Ron.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:06 AM
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NPH did star in a musical.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:12 AM
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Oh noes, does that mean that Zac Efron can't be mine?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:18 AM
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Hollywood (movie industry) *is* such a weirdly semi-closeted place. Who is the most prominent leading man (or woman, but seems more restrictive on the male side) who is absolutely out gay to the broader public?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:33 AM
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Rock Hudson?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:36 AM
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Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:39 AM
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66: Rught. It's turns out that it's ok to be a gay leading man after you're dead.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:40 AM
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I think NPH has to pretend to be gay to get ahead in Hollywood.

It seems like moving there from Hawaii would be a better first step.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:43 AM
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Mayim Bialik was a fan favorite as the star of the '90s sitcom, "Blossom." Now she is all grown up, the mother of two sons and holds a Ph.D in neuroscience from UCLA.

Huh, this is one of those bits of information I just assumed everyone knew. Assumption check: you know about Winnie from "The Wonder Years", right rob?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:45 AM
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68: "Things To Do In Hollywood When You're Dead (And Gay)"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:45 AM
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you know about Winnie from "The Wonder Years", right rob?

Oh god.

What?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:46 AM
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What ever happened to Winnie from The Wonder Years?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:46 AM
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you know about Winnie from "The Wonder Years", right rob?

She's the one with a low Erdos number, right?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:46 AM
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Who is the most prominent leading man (or woman, but seems more restrictive on the male side) who is absolutely out gay to the broader public?

Ian McKellen?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:48 AM
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Yes! (More.) She and Natalie Portman both, though Portman's is higher.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:48 AM
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Who is the most prominent leading man (or woman, but seems more restrictive on the male side) who is absolutely out gay to the broader public?

Heather Materazzo?
Portia De Rossi?
Ellen De Generes?

Are there any famous lesbians who aren't Italian?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:50 AM
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Mayim Bialik and her brother went to my math/science magnet high school.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:52 AM
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77: Michelle Rodriguez (bats for both sides - does that count?)
Anne Heche used to be famous.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:56 AM
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77: Lily Tomlin. Not sure when she really came out, or whether her sexuality is generally known by the public at large.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:56 AM
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Oh my God! I just looked at a Wikipedia list of out gay actors, and saw "Chad Allen." I was completely confused, because isn't that Hilary Swank's husband? All this time I thought that Hilary Swank was married to Shannen Doherty's brother from Our House, but it's really Becca's HIV-positive boyfriend from Life Goes On!


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:58 AM
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77:Who is the most prominent leading man (or woman, but seems more restrictive on the male side) who is absolutely out gay to the broader public?


Ian McKellan. Doesn't get more prominent than LOTR and Z-Men an DaVinci Code
I think he is a lead, or second lead. Did you need a romantic lead?


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 11:59 AM
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LT's sexuality has been on record before the theatre-going public since "The Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe" was first staged in the 80s. I'd be surprised if she hadn't gotten people up to speed before that, though.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:00 PM
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Winnie from "The Wonder Years"

I now know who I'm casting as heebie for the movie.

P.S. Portia De Rossi isn't Italian.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:02 PM
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Wiki:

When asked by Latina Magazine in April 2008 about the constant questions and speculation surrounding her sexuality, Rodriguez responded, "I don't answer those questions. I just keep it to myself and it's nobody's business. If I wanna fuck a girl, a boy, a dog--that's my business."[21]

Ogged's kind of woman.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:02 PM
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Mayim Bialik was on What Not To Wear and was delightfully well-adjusted. She politely refused the more wackadoodled-out advice of the hysterical and catty hosts, but accepted what she liked. She also managed not to get caught up in the Sexy Mom Imperative that they kept returning to.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:03 PM
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pwd 75

Looking at Wiki. I woulda sworn Downey was gay.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:06 PM
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NPH is the only out male actor I can think of who plays men who fuck women. Not surprising that he plays an hysterically promiscuous man (on How I Met Your Mother, which is charming).


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:06 PM
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82
Z-Men

You're dead to me, bob. Dead!


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:07 PM
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88: Leslie Cheung, RIP.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:08 PM
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Lily Tomlin. Not sure when she really came out, or whether her sexuality is generally known by the public at large.

One vote for "not known." And I like her a fair bit (she's not romantically involved with the woman who co-writes her stuff, is she?).

P.S. Portia De Rossi isn't Italian.

And Ellen isn't really a "leading lady." A star, maybe, but never what the term indicates (Just as Seinfeld is no "leading man").


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:09 PM
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she's not romantically involved with the woman who co-writes her stuff, is she?

I believe she was, and they had split by the time she restaged Search a few years ago.

Quick, to the internet!


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:10 PM
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89:Just an obvious misskey.

C'mon with the "Winnie from Wonder Years"

Danica McKellar is an outrageously great name.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:11 PM
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As a lesbian, Tomlin never had a "formal" coming out in the media, although her relationship with Wagner has been documented from its earliest days.

That's from a 2006 piece, and they are listed as still together.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:12 PM
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84: My god, that pic looks like it could be from the Wonder Years. For some reason I thought I'd seen a picture of her a few years back and she had aged terribly*. Now I wonder whom I was thinking of.

* Like, all the cuteness had been babyfat, and her adult appearance was plain with weird bone structure, or something. Really no idea whom I had in mind. Fred Savage, maybe.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:12 PM
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88: McKellen played Richard III...


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:12 PM
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There's nothing wrong with wearing army boots and peasant skirts together!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:13 PM
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97: I AGREE!


Posted by: OPINIONATED MOTHER COURAGE | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:13 PM
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91: According to Wikipedia, she's been out for a while.

Tomlin met her life partner Jane Wagner in 1971. After watching an after school special written by Wagner, Tomlin invited her to Los Angeles to collaborate on a comedy album. Although Tomlin officially declared her homosexuality to the press in 2001, her sexual orientation has not really been a secret; in interviews she would often refer to Jane Wagner as her partner. As Tomlin herself stated in 2008, in an interview for Just Out magazine:

" Everybody in the industry was certainly aware of my sexuality and of Jane... In interviews I always reference Jane and talk about Jane, but they don't always write about it.[8] "

Tomlin has been involved in a number of feminist and gay friendly film productions, and on her 1975 album Modern Scream she poked-fun at straight actors who make a point of distancing themselves from their homosexual characters...


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:14 PM
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Just as Seinfeld is no "leading man"

Clearly you were underwhelmed by "Bee Movie".


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:16 PM
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94: Huh. Of course, I never even knew she wrote with someone until fairly recently.

I think he is a lead, or second lead. Did you need a romantic lead?

Since I weighed in on this in 91.last, I just want to say that, AFAIAC, "leading X" indicates either a lead TV actor in a romantic role or a lead actor in (reasonably) big budget movies. Even a goof like Bill Murray became a quasi-leading man once he got big enough in movies, whereas a lead actor (like Ellen or Seinfeld) in a comedy doesn't have that kind of star power/aura about them. IMO.

That said, is McKellan too old? He plays pretty vigorous, from what I can tell (sim. with Capt. Picard - not exactly a Clooney, but not "On Golden Pond" Fonda, either).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:21 PM
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100: No, I have posters of the CG character; but I thought the voice work was weak.

Fuck, I have work to do, people.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:22 PM
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she would often refer to Jane Wagner as her partner

See, that's the problem with that term. They write together professionally. Of course they're partners!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:24 PM
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A possible candidate is Rupert Everett, though I guess that's more like "would be if he were in anything anymore."

Chad Allen has been out for a long time. I'm sure he's not the person to whom Swank is married.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:35 PM
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How out is Jodie Foster? She hasn't been in much lately, but counts as a fairly big star.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:41 PM
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104:Rupert Everett is in the kind of things I watch, and he does play straight, sorta, and romantic heterosexuals, sorta.

"Sorta" meaning one of the recent movies I have seen him in was Wilde's An Ideal Husband. Rupert ends up with Minnie Driver. Rupert also played Charles II in Stage Beauty and was affectionate, flirtatious and sexy toward Neil Gwyn.
He played bi- in B Monkey and the relationship with Argento was wonderful.

Rupert's wonderful.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:43 PM
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104: Hillary Swank was married to Chad Lowe. They're divorced now.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:45 PM
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104: Hillary Swank was married to Chad Lowe. They're divorced now.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:45 PM
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104: Hillary Swank was married to Chad Lowe. They're divorced now.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:48 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:49 PM
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104: Hillary Swank was married to Chad Lowe. They're divorced now.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:50 PM
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108, 109, 111

Sorry about that.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:51 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:51 PM
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Separate Lies was also quite good, as most anything with Emily Watson, Tom Wilkonson, and Everett might be expected to be. Everett played Watson's lover.

Comfort of Strangers 1990 Everett played Richardson's husband.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:54 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:54 PM
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101: AFAIAC, "leading X" indicates either a lead TV actor in a romantic role or a lead actor in (reasonably) big budget movies.

Yeah, that was why I phrased my query that way, (see black quarterback question from the '70s on through Rush Limbaugh).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 12:58 PM
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98 is hilarious.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:00 PM
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Rupert Everett and Ian McKellan don't count. Everyone knows British men are all secretly gay.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:04 PM
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115: M'kay. Thanks for sharing.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:11 PM
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118: No, some of them are out.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:14 PM
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I suppose Steven Fry isn't a leading man.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:15 PM
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Nor is Stephen Fry.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:15 PM
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Speaking of Stephen Fry, has anyone here watched any of his sort-of quiz show "QI"? It's pretty good.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:19 PM
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110: Seriously? I wonder if Rue McClanahan will dish at all when she comes to open the NC Gay & Lesbian Film Festival this summer...too much to hope for, I suppose.

80 ff: When I saw The Search in its original Broadway engagement (still the only B-way show I've seen, & I can't think of one I'd trade for it), the playbill interview with Tomlin & Wagner mentioned off-handedly that they were interviewed at their home. Tomlin wasn't "officially" out AFAICT, largely I think because no one asked, but clearly she had no interest in subterfuge. Also, she was always so strongly associated with playing strong, colorful characters that the easy magazine narrative was how ordinary & unassuming she was herself. I suspect there's a cool Queer Studies paper ready to be written comparing her career arc & persona to those of Ellen deGeneres.


Posted by: Rah | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:24 PM
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Nathan Lane?


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:24 PM
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121-3: Stephen Fry (last I knew) claimed to be emphatically & happily celibate, though his persona is queer-identified (wait, does that mean anything?).


Posted by: Rah | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:27 PM
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Stephen Fry (last I knew) claimed to be emphatically & happily celibate

He was just trying to let you down easy, Rah. He's classy like that.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:30 PM
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126: I think I knew that, but I could have sworn that he was celibate in that he wasn't having sex with men, rather than in that he wasn't having sex with women, if you see what I mean -- I'm remembering a funny story about his coming out to Emma Thompson.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:32 PM
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128 neatly expresses what I was trying to say. I've got a couple of hilarious essays by Fry on the subject, somewhere.


Posted by: Rah | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:34 PM
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I'm remembering a funny story about his coming out to Emma Thompson.

Isn't there a scene like that in Peter's Friends?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:34 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:39 PM
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Celibate or not, Fry's either gay or engaged in an elaborate ruse. (Remember, it's the attraction, not the action.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:42 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:43 PM
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132
(Remember, it's the attraction, not the action.)

Pithy.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:43 PM
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Stephen Fry

So good. I just watched his comedy master class sketch this weekend. The oddest thing about his humor to me is its gentleness-- he often doesn't have a victim.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:44 PM
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132 is highly unnecessary in light of 128.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:44 PM
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134: I know! I just made it up my own self.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 1:44 PM
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NO MORE MASTURBATING TO NORM COLEMAN'S SENATE CAMPAIGN OR REPUBLICAN FILIBUSTERS!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:12 PM
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NO MORE MASTURBATING TO NORM COLEMAN'S SENATE CAMPAIGN OR REPUBLICAN FILIBUSTERS!

Much like Michael Jackson, they were a hollowed-out limping zombie of their former selves anyway.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:14 PM
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138
NO MORE MASTURBATING TO ... REPUBLICAN FILIBUSTERS!

Assumes facts not in evidence.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:17 PM
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Blanche Lincoln, call your office.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:23 PM
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Assumes facts not in evidence.

It's going to have to be bipartisan now.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:36 PM
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Shamhat

Stoli greyhound here-- two ingredients, every bar has them, can be made drunk, no headache. minimally doctored good gin is OK too.

How are things, shamhat? Better, I hope.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:39 PM
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142: OK, fair enough, but they'll still be Republican filibusters in spirit.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:39 PM
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There seems to be some confusion about whether this is the cocktail thread. Republican filibusters in spirit are OK here, but if you're going to add grapefruit juice to spirits you'll have to go to the other one.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:43 PM
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I think we do need to come up with a cocktail named the Michael Jackson. Or at least the moonwalk.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:45 PM
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We saved some low hanging fruit for you in the HP thread, apo, but it's pretty stale by now.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:48 PM
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Stephen Fry has (I think) declared himself gay pretty explicitly in his (semi?-)autobiography, Moab is my washpot.
Tangentially, his 'language' sketch with Hugh Laurie is one of the greatest morsels of comedy I have ever witnessed.


Posted by: Unpronounceable Awl | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:55 PM
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his 'language' sketch with Hugh Laurie

Please explain where to be found.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:57 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHv7NGWb0k


Posted by: Unpronounceable Awl | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 2:58 PM
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148: Yet again, Wikipedia is informative.

When asked when he first acknowledged his sexuality, Fry quipped: "I suppose it all began when I came out of the womb. I looked back up at my mother and thought to myself, 'That's the last time I'm going up one of those.'"


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:00 PM
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Thanks! I figured it was probably from "A Bit of F&L" but haven't seen that particular sketch yet.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:00 PM
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79: Anne Heche used to be famous gay.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:06 PM
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146: Shot of black rum, shot of white rum, some Pepsi, add ice and drink up.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:06 PM
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I know I've read that Stephen Fry has had a boyfriend in recent years, since the famed celibacy remarks. As to current status, dunno.

And christ, yes, can't bloody turn the tv without QI appearing.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:07 PM
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Can't bloody type a coherent and correctly-tagged sentence either.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:07 PM
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154: I think it needs a cherry so it sort of looks like a kid's drink. And perhaps a shot of 151 on top, to be set aflame?

155: Hmmm. It's very hard to find over here. You should send us some of your excess QI capacity.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:15 PM
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146: Pepsi-Cola, Bartles & James Strawberry Lemonade, and Seconal.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:15 PM
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||
Eminem.

Along with Marilyn Manson and Britney Spears, Eminem was part of a wave of musicians who briefly turned mainstream pop into something shocking. The three of them complement each other so well it reads like a marketing plan (which it was). Manson was a religious grotesque: his best-selling album is titled Antichrist Superstar. Britney was a sexual grotesque. Eminem, more complex than Britney or Manson, put on a far bigger freak-show. He turned himself into a cartoon version of the whole pop culture[.]

The rest of it has some perceptive criticism on both his reception and his skills.

|>


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:16 PM
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157.2 Are we not torrenting enough of it?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:17 PM
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Fry and Laurie used to be able to call themselves 'ass bandits,' but the phrase was hijacked.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:18 PM
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157: I think we need to patent it or something.


Posted by: tonks | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:23 PM
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157.1: I was working on something involving twelve year old scotch and twelve year olds, but it just wouldn't quite click.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:28 PM
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White wine in a Pepsi can, shouldn't it be?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:31 PM
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We saved some low hanging fruit for you in the HP thread, apo

Yeah, I saw it, but I was busy comforting my kids.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:32 PM
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Kaluha and Coke, with a shot of Irish Cream on the side. You pour in the Irish Cream and watch the black drink slowly become white.


Posted by: robert halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:37 PM
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146: I don't think Jesus Juice can be anything other than Grape Kool-Aid and Everclear.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:39 PM
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167: C'mon, I'm sure the wine he makes isn't that bad.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 3:41 PM
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11: A very special "Blossom"!

33: this sounds very reasonable and very sad.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 4:27 PM
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Was I saying nice things about NYC cops earlier? Nevermind!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 5:38 PM
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It's very hard to find over here.

QI clips show up regularly over at videosift. Not full episodes, but it's something.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 5:50 PM
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a: QI is relentlessly full of jokes about stephen fry's very well-known gayness
b: the moonwalk was first performed on film if not invented by bill bailey
c: the following michael jackson lyric is from 1991: "i am the damned, i am the dead, i am the agony inside a dying head" (nor is this an un-typical MJ lyric): never has a major popstar spent more time "trying to tell us something" absolutely directly and plainly and clearly, and not been heard by anyone listening


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 5:52 PM
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||

Didn't remember Blossom, never watched it, so I looked up Bialik at Wiki, read an interview, and spent two hours reading about Niddah and Mikvah

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:02 PM
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WHOA!


Posted by: OPINIONATED JOEY RUSSO | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:04 PM
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Ian McKellen, Derek Jacobi, Leslie Cheung, Rupert Everett, Nigel Hawthorne, in effect can't be categorized as "leading men" even when they star in big-budget films because they are known to be gay.

Tom Cruise can be categorized as a "leading man", because he's in the closet. Oops, did I say that out loud?


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:05 PM
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I was just re-reading Hawthorne's obituary on the BBC website, and of course since he died in 2001, the BBC had no way to mention in their ultra-respectable British kind of way that he was survived by his partner Trevor Bentham. One of the many gifts that civil partnership brought to the UK was the ability of obituary writers politely to acknowledge that there was a widowed survivor... and I'd got so used to it it was strange to read the BBC's obit and see not a mention of a man the writer certainly knew existed.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:09 PM
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175.1: God, I'm afraid there's something too right about this, much as I'd like to deny it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:17 PM
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175.1: I don't think this necessarily takes away from your point, but Leslie Cheung was certainly a leading man in HK and China, both before and after coming out of the closet.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:26 PM
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175: Tom Cruise can be categorized as a "leading man", because he's in the closet.

Is Tom Cruise really in the closet? I mean, he seems to out about this whole Scientology thing.

max
['Loud and proud.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:27 PM
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Did Alan Bates ever come out as bisexual while he was alive?


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:29 PM
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Plus, Derek Jacobi?!? How can he not be a leading man? Gah. (I didn't know he was gay, but that's not relevant.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:38 PM
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I don't think Jacobi was ever the leading man in anything; he was the star in stuff.

max
['I mean, we are talking 'Hollywood leading men' right?']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:47 PM
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182: Very good point. That's really it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 6:50 PM
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170: Plus they kicked people of color out of the Pride parade:
http://www.alp.org/node/364


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:01 PM
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To be fair, even straight men wanted to sleep with Leslie Cheung, which makes him something of an exception.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:09 PM
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182:Well, what do we, or you, or Max mean by "leading man." Henry Fonda in Grapes of Wrath, Mr Roberts Twelve Angry Men?

There are "romantic leads" and then there are names that finance and open movies. I think McKellan may be at the point where he helps finance and open movies now.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:11 PM
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I think Travolta is the biggest "very open secret" gay leading man in Hollywood, but the fact that he's never come out tells you a lot.


Posted by: robert halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:16 PM
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I looked up Bates at Wiki, and he did hide his bisexuality. I was trying to understand why, beyond personal reasons or history. Bates did very often play gays or bis onscreen, in Butley or as Guy Burgess. He really wanted to do Sunday Bloody Sunday. Women in Love.

I wondered if he felt a need to keep a macho image to get parts that Jacobi and Courtenay couldn't get. But I don't understand macho, seeing as an aggressive independence that Everett and a lot of gays have in spades. Hell, I see Quentin Crisp as macho.

John Hurt = not macho = not gay.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:22 PM
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187: 182:Well, what do we, or you, or Max mean by "leading man."

I am thinking yes, a romantic lead (Rudolf Valentino?) or an action hero, or a Western hero, but generally, a hero. I don't really remember Jacobi playing a standard-hero type lead. He wasn't that kind of lead in I, Claudius, for instance. Helen Mirren (semi-random example) was playing that kind of lead (albeit the female kind) when she was in Prime Suspect.

Jacobi seems to have played the second lead and whatnot in a bunch of stuff, since that's where the good roles are.

max
['I could be wrong.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:27 PM
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Hegemonic Maxculinity

Proponents point to characteristics such as aggressiveness, strength, drive, ambition, and self-reliance, which they argue are encouraged in males but discouraged in females in contemporary American society, as evidence of the existence of hegemonic masculinity.

189:"Hero" = "alpha male?" (In order to extend it past "action hero") So maybe the Fonda roles above are all alpha males.

Whatever. This is getting complicated.

Watched Another Country again a little while back. Styles of Adolescent Masculinity.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:38 PM
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Whatever. This is getting complicated.

It is. I'll go with the alpha male thing for so-called leading men, as opposed to star actors. Max is right that the latter often go for second lead roles.

I was trying to put Meryl Streep in this context (leading lady? star?) but found myself bumping up against something troublesome there.* She's clearly one of the outstanding actors of our time. What about Emma Thompson? Not quite the same, but similar.

* Streep is marvelous and interesting, and/but Jon Stewart for some reason felt the need to tell her several times in an interview on his show a while ago that she was hot. Although she was wearing black leather pants, I think. Which was fine. I have a soft spot for her.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:50 PM
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Gary Coleman became a character in Avenue Q

Coleman moved to Utah and is a huge pain in the ass. Thankfully, not in my jurisdiction.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28437385/

Officers have been called to assist or intervene with Coleman 21 times since he moved to Utah in fall 2005, according to police reports

Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 7:55 PM
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Is Bubbles still alive?

Living in Florida since 2005.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:02 PM
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You know, I never wondered this before, but did anybody ever think to ask if the reason MJ had such weird problems with his nose and his genitals was that bubbles tore them off?

Food for thought.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:06 PM
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Hell, I see Quentin Crisp as macho.

I can definitely imagine bob channeling Quentin:

To know all is not to forgive all. It is to despise everybody.

Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:30 PM
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||

I burned my thumb and index finger about 90 minutes ago. I can't figure out what to do besides ice it. I put some neosporin on it, but it still hurts like hell seconds after I take it away from the cold.

Thoughts? Cause I'd like to go to bed.

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:37 PM
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Drink!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:41 PM
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Sealed bag of frozen peas.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:42 PM
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198: That doesn't sound drinkable.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:46 PM
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I'm not sure there's much you can do. It's going to throb and hurt until tomorrow, perhaps. Maybe try to go to bed with a cold, wet washcloth wrapped around it? Or a little icepack of some sort? Some combination thereof: washcloth with bagged ice wrapped in it, and a towel around that.

On preview: yeah! to bed with a bag of frozen peas! Like that!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:50 PM
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196: It's going to hurt like a motherfucker for a while. Try to fall asleep with it on ice and hope you don't wake up.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:50 PM
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201: Er, hope you don't wake up til tomorrow morning or so.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:52 PM
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197 is correct. Or alternately, opiates.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 8:52 PM
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Opiates not always easy to come by. Topical numbing agent like benzocaine might already be at hand in sunburn cream or vagisil.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:00 PM
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Opiates not always easy to come by.

Well yeah, no thanks to you!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:05 PM
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Ice is good for preventing swelling and numbing the nerves, but when you take it away the nerves are going to scream that much harder ("Ah! Why haven't you been telling us about this?") Fingers are chock full of nerves and particularly nasty.

My time tested method is to very slowly ween myself off of the ice,,gradually increasing the ammount of time the burned areas stay off of them. Sadly this requires consciousness. The peas are a good thought, but may not be cold enough for very long. I'd suggest ice in a ziplock.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 9:10 PM
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Don't go to sleep with lots of ice on the hand, you don't want frostbite.

Ice it up, take whatever painkillers you have handy, and elevate it to keep the blood pressure and other fluids in that area down 'cause swelling will make it hurt more.

Then think of England or whatever else floats your boat.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 06-30-09 10:21 PM
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We started with "moonwalking". Here's youtube thing that Dave Penny posted to Shakin' All Over -


... I had to respond to the Moon Walk post; neither Jackson nor Rockin' Ronald invented the Moon Walk. This well compiled collage shows a variety of dance acts from the 1920s to the 1950s performing something similar, but to me the standouts are Bill Bailey (brother of singer Pearl) and the estimable Cab Calloway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxZcLWAmdco&feature=player_embedded


Posted by: dave heasman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-09 6:31 AM
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