Re: Willpower is for making people feel bad.

1

If your proposition was true, I'm fairly certain I'd get punched several times a week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 2:56 PM
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How good you are at devising strategies to resist temptation is willpower in a trivial sort of way, especially if "just don't give in to temptation" is an effective strategy for you.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 2:56 PM
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Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained

T


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 2:57 PM
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In the short term, willpower does seem to be a limited resource that gets used up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opinion/02aamodt.html?_r=1

It makes sense to conserve your willpower by avoiding temptations.

On the other hand, you can develop good habits if you want to. People have stopped smoking and the like.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 2:59 PM
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Ogged had some unconventional ideas on this issue as well -- something involving a greek word.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 2:59 PM
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If your proposition was true, I'm fairly certain I'd get punched several times a week.

It's only sheer willpower that keeps you from prostrating yourself chin out and begging for it?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:02 PM
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especially if "just don't give in to temptation" is an effective strategy for you.

Is it, for anybody, if they really crave the thing?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:08 PM
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This makes me think of those studies with the kids and the marshmallows, where the kids who are able to wait get to have two marshmallows and then go on to a life of success while the kids who eat the marshmallow right away become pathetic failures. Or something.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:11 PM
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I can stop sweets for Lent without too much trouble (after the first week). And I'm a guy who just finished a whole box of "Dots" after a big lunch.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:11 PM
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8: The kids who eat the marshmellow, pin the blame on the lab assistant, and get two more marshmellows are the ones who really go far.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:13 PM
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I submit that restraining myself from doing something is very different from forcing myself to do something.

The former is easy for me, the latter nigh impossible. I would have passed the marshmallow test, but I probably fall into the pathetic failure category.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:14 PM
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11 is very interesting. I find forcing myself to do something much easier than restraining myself. I can jump off the high dive, I just can't help pushing Parenthetical off, too.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:15 PM
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Ogged had some unconventional ideas on this issue as well -- something involving a greek word.

No, it was Greek style, and his unconventional ideas were plagiarized from Oscar Wilde.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:16 PM
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12: Wait. The water-wings are still in the car.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:17 PM
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Now I know who I need to take sky diving. I sort of want to do it, but I'm pretty sure the only way I'd get out of the plane is if I was a) strapped to someone else or b) pushed.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:17 PM
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11 is very true for me.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:19 PM
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Forcing myself to do stuff is definitely a youngest-kid strategy that I developed to keep up, so I wouldn't be left out. "WHATEVER'S GOING ON, I WANT IN."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:19 PM
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Witness how well I restrain myself from commenting on the internet! Err, um. I mean, how hard it is to force myself to work!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:20 PM
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When energy is high, I am heebie; when energy is low, I am parenthetical. At the moment, I'm in a tired/lazy phase, so even though I might be tempted to smoke, the fact that this would require going to the store to purchase cigarettes is enough to keep me smoke-free. Which I think mostly means laziness is a more powerful temptation to me than anything else I can think of.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:20 PM
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11, 16: Well, yes, you're here. (As are the rest of us.)


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:20 PM
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17: I have some of this as well when it comes to athletic pursuits, which is why I like hiking with a partner. I suppose it is the intersection of competitiveness and will power. (Though I trend towards not being very competitive in arenas where I know I'm sub-par.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:23 PM
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In finally contemplating finding a job, I think I'm setting my sights extremely low, because after so many years surrounded by cynical and bored grad students, I find it hard to imagine that I could actually do something interesting OR significant and get paid for it.

Also as far as self-motivation, I am pretty competitive but also acutely bothered by power differentials when they appear in any relationship (as you may remember from certain dating threads), so if I'm, say, running alongside someone I'm spending the whole time saying "Oh, he's going faster. Well, that's not fair, he has [unfair advantage X]." or "Oh, I'm going faster. Well, that's not fair, I have [unfair advantage Y]."


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:36 PM
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23

Lady Willpower,
It's now or
never...


Posted by: Gary Puckett | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:39 PM
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I submit that restraining myself from doing something is very different from forcing myself to do something.

Me too, very much so. Shocking, I know.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:43 PM
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The former is easy for me, the latter nigh impossible.

Oh, and this part too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:43 PM
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26

5: akrasia


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:47 PM
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27

Everything is habit and character. If you're a lucky person who develops the right habits easily, you think you have willpower.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:48 PM
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As I get older and know myself better, I've nearly abandoned the idea of willpower for self-improvement. I've never made it work. Instead, I try to arrange the situation into one of the things that works for me or I give up on whatever idea I had.

Instead of willpower, I've been trying to figure out the rules for making me do things.

I do things in classes.
I do things for external approval.
I do things for fear of losing my job.
I do things out of habit.

There are probably others, but now I don't even try to pretend to myself that I'll workout by myself. I never will. I'll go to group workout every time but never stretch at home. Might as well know that and find myself some classes.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:50 PM
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29

My former therapist was likewise convinced that there is no such thing as laziness.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:50 PM
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I think a very interesting technological development will be when we start using deep brain stimulation of the reward centers to start to conquer akrasia, giving us real willpower. DBS (of the reward centers) is already used for the treatment of OCD, and trails are underway for its treatment in depression (for treatment-resistent cases, of course).


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:54 PM
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trials


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 3:55 PM
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28 describes a really smart solution. It tends to be one of the few things that works for me.

A recent experience of mine confirms Heebie's original hypothesis. I've fallen out of the habit of reading for fun, in favor of wasting time with the internet, which quite disturbs me. A book here and there, yes, but nothing like I did throughout childhood and into grad school. So recently I decided that I would start a new habit - 50 pages a day (best to start slow). Turns out when you're making yourself do something you really do like, but you've gotten out of practice with, willpower is easy! (Plus, picking a McPhee book for the trial run helps.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 4:01 PM
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Man does at all times only what he wills, and yet he does this necessarily. But this is because he already is what he wills.


Posted by: Arthur Schopenhauer | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 4:08 PM
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But if we turn our glance from our own needy and embarrassed condition to those who have
overcome the world, in whom the will, having attained to perfect self-knowledge, found itself again in all, and then freely denied itself, and who then merely wait to see the last trace of it vanish with the body which it animates ; then, instead of the restless striving and effort, instead of the constant transition from wish to fruition, and from joy to sorrow, instead of the never-satisfied and never-dying hope which constitutes the life of the man who wills, we shall see that peace which is above all reason, that perfect calm of the spirit, that deep rest, that inviolable confidence and serenity, the mere reflection of which in the countenance, as Raphael and Correggio have represented it, is an entire and certain gospel ; only knowledge remains, the will lias vanished.
...
Rather do we freely acknowledge that what remains after the entire abolition of will is for all those who are still full of will certainly nothing ; but, conversely, to those in whom the will has turned and has denied itself, this our world, which is so real, with all its suns and milky-ways is nothing.


Posted by: Arthur Schopenhauer | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 4:27 PM
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35

Stop trying to make fetch happen!


Posted by: Regina George | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 4:58 PM
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36

I submit that restraining myself from doing something is very different from forcing myself to do something.

For example, I've ably restrained myself from commenting here with measurable quality and significant quantity these past few days, but have I started the several hours' worth of work that is my only current contract job? No, I have not.


Posted by: K-sky | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:15 PM
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From the wiki link in 4, a possible problem with "Ego Depletion":

They report on four studies where the positive mood stimulus was a surprise gift or short clips of stand-up comedy by Robin Williams


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:19 PM
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37: Yeah, neither of those links impressed me very much. Both of them read like an ideology in search of a justification.

(no offense to lemmy; this is just a comment on the researchers)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:22 PM
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The marshmallow study was the first that sprang to mind for me, too. One of the implications of that study is that willpower (at least for very young children) is precisely the ability to think up and execute avoidance strategies.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:30 PM
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||
Tangentially related to willpower, I suppose...

I'm contemplating joining my company's soccer team, but a) I haven't played since I was a little kid and b) I haven't played any kind of sport in about 15 years. I'm in decent shape at this point, but does anyone have any soccer-specific exercises and/or stretches to recommend? I don't really want to be the weekend warrior who shreds his Achilles 10 minutes into his first game.
|>


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:39 PM
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I pulled both my quads the first time I went to kick the ball far, when I hadn't played outdoor in a few years. Stretch those.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:43 PM
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See, that never would have even occurred to me. Anything else?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:47 PM
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I also always stretch my groin muscles before starting, because it's easy to pull when you do that awkward flailing move where you wildly throw your foot in mid-air towards a bouncing ball. I don't bother to stretch anything else.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:52 PM
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44

Kick with your laces! Head down toe down! Pass with your instep!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:53 PM
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Knee over the ball! Watch the other player's hips to see where they're going! Half the game is being able to charge someone like a madman.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:54 PM
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46

Okay now you're all set to coach eight year olds.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:54 PM
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47

Winning isn't fun if you don't do it as a good sport.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:55 PM
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48

Losing gives you a chance to grow.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:55 PM
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I joined a soccer league with no preparation. My main problem was I wasn't able to change directions while running without turning my ankles and falling down in what looked like extreme pain but was really just clumsiness combined with the ability to fall effectively, learned from judo.

However...I don't know how what could have prevented that from happening.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:55 PM
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Continuing that thought, I suppose if I had been running in the objective universe rather than in the purgatory of the treadmill, that would not have been a problem.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 5:58 PM
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51

Losing gives you a chance to grow.

Trolling won't make ogged come back, you know.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 6:00 PM
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One of the things I regretted most about Ogged leaving was my never having determined what his case against the very existence of akrasia was (I do not recall the formulation as I first heard of it). I realize it's a complicated question, and I may have googled in a desultory manner at some point in an attempt to discern what he meant, but I never did follow up.

In fact, I may have misunderstood his position altogether.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 7:18 PM
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You could email him and ask. He still responds to ogged at unfogged.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 7:26 PM
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54

Well, I don't remember what ogged's argument was, but my own argument against akrasia (which I don't really defend much anymore) is that desires/intentions are not determined by what we consciously think they are, but instead what our actions evince. Our conscious intentions are just epiphenomena. Like that Schopenhauer quote up there.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 7:28 PM
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This makes me miss Ogged.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 7:55 PM
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53: I could. It's on the list. Everybody has things going on, however.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 8:06 PM
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I do all of those things, heebie, but I find my game severely lacking because I cannot, for the life of me, manage to send a long ball. I toe poke it or slice it every time. Any tips for that?


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 8:38 PM
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Tips that don't involve hours of practice, of course, because my willpower is already otherwise spoken for.


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 8:39 PM
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My willpower pwns joo.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 8:42 PM
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57: What do you mean by 'slice it'? Like catch the edge and send it spinning to the side?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:01 PM
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Here's a relevant TED talk about extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation. His speaking style is kind of annoying, but I found it interesting.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:14 PM
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57: What do you mean by 'slice it'? Like catch the edge and send it spinning to the side?

Yeah, you generally hit it with the outside of your boot rather than the laces. You can do this intentionally for bend or unintentionally for "lulz."


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:21 PM
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Here's a perfect illustration of how true 11 is for me:

The graduate student organization in my program organizes social events on Thursday nights (we don't have classes on Friday). These are usually at various local bars. I missed the one last week, so I was determined to this week. The one tonight was at a bar that's a little far away, and in an area most of us first-years are unfamiliar with, but I fully intended to go, was looking forward to it all day, and even scoped out the area and found the bar this afternoon. But then when it came time to go, I just... didn't. I don't know why. It's like I came to the moment of truth and flinched. And now I'm all upset and confused and frustrated.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:21 PM
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64

Is it too late to go there now? If not, you totally should.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:24 PM
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63: You could still go maybe.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:24 PM
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66

I do all of those things, heebie, but I find my game severely lacking because I cannot, for the life of me, manage to send a long ball. I toe poke it or slice it every time. Any tips for that?

Here's my advice: This is the slightly-cheating half-assed way to learn to kick far, but I think that over time it bleeds into doing it the right way anyway. You want to learn to chip the ball - you're still striking it with your laces, but kind of get your toe under the ball, and it's okay to lean back a little, and you can get a pretty arc, although the ball is slow and lofty and airborne. I think that's a good halfway motion. Then you can gradually tip yourself forward, and get your toe pointed more down, and get more of that firing bang thing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:25 PM
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67

It's like I was pwned, but I was actually piling on with encouragement.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:25 PM
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68

I probably could still go, but I don't know how long these things tend to last (the only one I went to ended kind of early, but I don't know how typical that is) and the place really is kind of far. It would really suck to walk all the way there only to find that they were gone and have to walk right back.

Also I'm all mopey now and probably no fun.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:28 PM
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It's like I came to the moment of truth and flinched.

You saw the eternal Footman hold your coat, and snicker?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:28 PM
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You could try drinking alone?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:29 PM
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And anyway, whatever it was that kept me from going earlier is still keeping me from going.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:29 PM
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You could try drinking alone?

That's the plan!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:29 PM
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Unfortunately there was only one beer in the fridge, but it'll have to do.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:30 PM
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73: You were warned that roommate who liked the same kind of beer was going to be an issue.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:31 PM
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Do you have any cooking wine or rubbing alcohol?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:31 PM
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76

Ooh, or an air duster?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:32 PM
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66 gets it right, but the most crucial thing is to have the toes pointed down. Which means your body should basically be above the ball. Otherwise hitting it with the laces will produce either a popup or the equivalent of a toe poke. This took me a really long time to figure out because it seems unnatural and doesn't allow the option of vailing out and doing something else with the ball besides kicking it 100 miles.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:32 PM
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You were warned that roommate who liked the same kind of beer was going to be an issue.

So true. I never learn.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:33 PM
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When I started grad school, I went to several of the department social events for new students, but a couple of assholes turned me off the whole idea, and subsequently I only spent time with a much smaller group of people. In retrospect, this was a bad idea, and I missed out on getting to know some good people.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:33 PM
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One beer hardly qualifies as drinking, teo. Perhaps there's a bar nearby where already-drunk people might entertain you and even buy you some beer.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:35 PM
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I'm afraid this is way past my bedtime and I must retire. It always gets fun around here when I have to poop out.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:35 PM
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79: Yeah, I'm trying to force myself to go to these things. For a while my roommate and I were going together, and that was good motivation, but now that classes have started our schedules are very different and we don't see each other much. I haven't seen her at all today, come to think of it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:36 PM
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Perhaps there's a bar nearby where already-drunk people might entertain you and even buy you some beer.

Perhaps. Not that there's any chance I'm going to find out; if I wasn't able to get myself to the bar with the people I sort of know, no way am I going to get myself to a bar full of strangers.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:37 PM
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82: Going to those kinds of things is how I met my wife (though she wasn't my wife until well after I met her).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:38 PM
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85

Good night, heebie.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:38 PM
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84: Yeah, and now you've got a kid. Seriously, teo, I think you may have made the right decision. I mean, are you really ready for children?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:40 PM
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no way am I going to get myself to a bar full of strangers

Dude. Cliff Claven and Norm Peterson had to start somewhere.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:40 PM
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88

Good point, Stanley. Celibacy it is.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:41 PM
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89

Emerson would be proud.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:42 PM
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90

86: A toddler is a pretty good reason to not go to a bar without sounding all angsty about it. Thus the circle is complete.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:42 PM
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I dunno, avoiding sounding angsty doesn't sound like a very good reason to have a kid.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:44 PM
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90: Are you kidding? A toddler is plenty good reason to go to a bar, period.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:45 PM
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92: Very few bars let toddlers in, at least after 9:00 or so.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:46 PM
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94

Can I get the hot toddler plate? With extra jalapeƱos, please?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:47 PM
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95

I'm just going to let you two fight this one out.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 9:48 PM
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If it makes you feel any better, teo, I had been procrastinating making coconut macaroons all week, and now I'm half-way through the process and fairly sure they're a disaster.

I'm not exactly sure how that's supposed to comfort you, now that I'm thinking about it. Misery loves company?


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:00 PM
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Very few bars let toddlers in

It's a measure of something -- I'm not quite sure what -- that when I came across the phrase "old toddlers" recently, I was first struck by the usefulness of the distinction,* and only secondly by the ridiculousness of it.

*The contrast being young toddlers, of course.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:01 PM
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I'm not exactly sure how that's supposed to comfort you, now that I'm thinking about it. Misery loves company?

You could send me some macaroons. That would comfort me.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:04 PM
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99

Just sayin'.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:05 PM
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100

Kobe!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:06 PM
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101

Comfort him with macaroons, for he is sick of bars.

Hm, not sure that works.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:06 PM
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No, it works. It works just fine.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:07 PM
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103

But they're a disaster! Maybe if I get them right next time.

I reiterate the call for an Unfogged baked goods exchange.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:09 PM
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104

My wife made snickerdoodles today. I'd have preferred chocolate chip, but I'm not the toddler.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:12 PM
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I'm going to bed, but anyone who feels the need for some righteousness might want to read the Keith Olberman sermon on callling the president a liar. Far as I can tell, he's about 98% accurate in his claims, which is pretty good for a TV editorial.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:14 PM
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106

Just keep telling yourself that, Mobe.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:14 PM
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107

I'm not the toddler.

Yet.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:16 PM
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108

But then when it came time to go, I just... didn't. I don't know why.

There was an event like that here scheduled before classes and orientation began. I didn't go because there are few places worse for me to meet people than bars. However, I might go to something in the future. I've determined that what I really have a problem with is arriving alone, or arriving with people who disappear when you get there. Also, the fact that I rarely enjoy those kinds of events, anyway. It seems like I'm always on the edge of conversations, especially if it's loud. No, I'm not going to yell to introduce myself, I'm just going to wonder why I showed up.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:18 PM
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I've determined that what I really have a problem with is arriving alone

This is my problem exactly.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:21 PM
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110

Well, part of it anyway.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:21 PM
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I knew eb would understand.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:22 PM
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108, 109: Hm, that sometimes bothers me, but for the most part I don't have too many troubles making myself go out to things where there's some actual reason to get together, even if most everyone is going to be a stranger. But then again, I actually like socializing (though I do find that with strangers it can be really draining), despite the hold inertia occasionally has on me.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:24 PM
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Solution follows. Send embossed invitations to the cute girls in your classes, requesting that they do you the favour of being your escort to the various functions that make up the social season in your department. Plenty of them no doubt have the arriving-alone problem as well.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:24 PM
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I reiterate the call for an Unfogged baked goods exchange.

Anytime you and Megan and Belle want to do something like that local, I volunteer to help dispose of the evidence.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:25 PM
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Do I really have to emboss the invitations?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:25 PM
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On the other hand, when people meet for coffee, or chat after class, or are in study groups or quasi study groups, I used to be unsure about showing up, but that usually works out fine. Unfortunately, it seems like coffee/lunch is often seen as either professional or completely casual, so it's something you do with someone you already know as a friend or someone you don't know at all. People seem to become friends at bar/party types of events, then meet for coffee or whatever, arranged hastily on the fly. If you don't show up for the bars, it might take a while to be a part of the casual whatever gatherings, because yours is not a name included by default. Again, just from my experience. I went to a lot more movies and casual whatever things with grad school friends after we'd studied together for exams than before, and I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the extra time outside of formal classes that hadn't been there before, though we'd know each other for quite some time.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:27 PM
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Absolutely. Embossing is critical in winning girls' attention.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:28 PM
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I actually like socializing

So do I, oddly enough. But that's different than meeting people, or at least there's more than one type of socializing.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:29 PM
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114: Good idea.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:29 PM
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YOU'RE NOT THE EMBOSS OF ME


Posted by: OPINIONATED RECIPIENT OF TEO'S INVITATION | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:29 PM
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Embossing it is!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:30 PM
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Anyone else think the OPINIONATED X thing may have jumped the shark?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:31 PM
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No.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:35 PM
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Yes.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:35 PM
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Maybe.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:38 PM
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NO.


Posted by: OPINIONATED OPINIONATED | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:46 PM
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Argh. I think this may be one of the few things I've ever made that I just have to throw out. (I stupidly, stupidly thought I could make up for not having sweetened coconut but adding in extra sugar. I basically just made a hard candy coating for my macaroons, which is absolutely disgusting.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:49 PM
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By the way, do you check your comment email, ()? I sent you something history-related. (I mentioned this in another thread, but I don't know if you saw it.)


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:55 PM
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eb, funny you should mention that. I just noticed it and you should have a reply. (And yeah, I missed it in the other thread.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:57 PM
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Yeah, go to the social things. I think one of the big reasons that even someone as socially inept as I was able to move to a new city without too much crushing loneliness (that came later) was that I forced myself to accept every social opportunity offered during the beginning phases of grad school. (I was also just more mature than at the beginning of college, and the much smaller entering cohort made it much harder to simply disappear.)

And hey, just now I am forcing myself to go to a bar with a
douchey name (thesis: The ____ Room, for any value of ____, is always a douchey name for a bar) where I won't know many people. Better than sitting at home. I can always leave.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 10:58 PM
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And who knows, you might meet Moby Hick's wife there.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:02 PM
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The Douche Room might be a cool name for a bar, if the clientele were self-aware.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:04 PM
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But they'd probably say it's pronounced Douché.

The Fouché Room would be a whole different kind of bar.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:08 PM
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The Douche Room sounds like the name of one of the rooms at a 70s-era sex club.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:39 PM
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Otto is probably right, but a friend used to be a bartender at The Orbit Room in SF, and I adored the drinks she'd make. But I never showed up late at night, when it was probably in primo douche mode.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:46 PM
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(Ok, so, I lied, she was a friend of a friend, and upon googling I'm coming to realize that she's probably the most famous former-history major bartender in all of San Francisco.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:51 PM
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Friend of a friend, sounds like an urban legend.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:55 PM
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114 - Pie Contest is this Sunday evening and all are welcome. Email me for the address and time.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:59 PM
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I say that not to be skeptical or in any way serious, but because you commented elsewhere about breaking up your talking to yourself. Which I've now followed up by talking to myself.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-09 11:59 PM
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137: I was just using shorthand really; if she had been a real friend I wouldn't be so darn surprised at things the internet is telling me now. Apparently, for one brief moment, I was actually cool by association in the world of cocktails. This will never happen again, I am quite sure.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:01 AM
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139: Why thank you.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:02 AM
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A friend of mine used to dance at a strip joint called the Boom-Boom Room, which is almost douchey enough to transcend douchiness, but perhaps not quite.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:12 AM
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I have seen the Boom-Boom Room! It always makes me snicker.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:13 AM
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Are you thinking of the San Francisco blues club, the Portland strip joint or the Laguna Beach gay bar?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:18 AM
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The first. So not YOUR Boom-Boom Room. (I had no idea what was inside, obviously.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:24 AM
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The Room in question was the Orbit Room. Not as douchey as anticipated. I'd say it was a good Pimm's Cup, but what would be the point? That was my first Pimm's Cup, and thus my opinion on this matter is worth nothing. NOTHING!

Note, however, that my assertion was about the douchiness of the name, and not the location. A cool location can have a douchey name. The relationship between the signifier and signified is arbitrary, you know.

Wish that taqueria were still open.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:47 AM
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Note further that the name of the establishment in question actually seems to be "Orbit Room Cafe". Don't know how I feel about the elision of the definite article, but I'd say the addition of the word Cafe reduces total aggregate douchiness.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 12:57 AM
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not YOUR Boom-Boom Room. (I had no idea what was inside, obviously.)

Is this like a boom-boom diaper?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:15 AM
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"Willpower" is just a fake-out for pretending that everyone finds the item/activity equally attractive or fetching.

Back to the original post, I guess instead of Schopenhauer I could have gone with Nietzsche and maybe the Genealogy, and the strategy of separating Will from Self or action from value as a means of social control.

Read a little about Davidson last night. The problems philos have with akrasia is that they insist that reason can help us do stuff we really don't want to do. The New Priests.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:50 AM
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Thanks for the chip tips, heebie.


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:54 AM
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So not YOUR Boom-Boom Room.

I am entertained by the thought that the strip joint is Jesus' Boom Boom Room.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 9:21 AM
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This is an interesting question to me; I've been thinking a lot about will lately, both in the context of particular inconsistent people around me, and more generally. It's probably an obvious idea, but will seems like a solution to the problem of self that Hume raised. But I don't see how to define will-- consistent action against short-term interests, maybe? Rigorously training athletes, Raoul Wallenberg, the Montgolfier brothers, Mendel or McClintock--- all of these seem manifestations of something, but a good description seems pretty hard to come by.

It feels a little sophomoric to think about this, too old for fundamental discussions. I couldn't manage Schopenhauer-- is there a best translation, or a good source for exegesis? theree are hundreds of hits on Google books--
this looks interesting, but pretty specialized.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 9:26 AM
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The Orbit Room is fantastic, as long as you don't want your drink in any particular hurry. It's also a good place to go drink by yourself, and not in any noticeable way douchey. It can get a bit of the Castro overflow, but that's hardly the end of the world.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 1:19 PM
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146
The relationship between the signifier and signified is arbitrary, you know.

Standards around here are slipping. A year ago there's no way all the pedants around here would have let this statement rest. You all suck.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 1:22 PM
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Update: It turns out my roommate went to the thing last night, and it was very fun and went very late. Oh well. Live and learn.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 1:27 PM
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Next week, teo, next week.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 1:28 PM
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Yeah, next week.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 1:29 PM
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155: Teo, kind of wanting to go to things and then not going and feeling bad but also a little bit relieved is something with which I have a lot of experience! Why, just this week I went to a surprise party for someone of whom I am quite fond, a party with lots of strangers but also a reasonable number of people I know and like. I planned to stay and talk but when I got there I found I could only shout "surprise" wildly with the throng, hand off my present and leave. I felt really bad about it for a couple of days because I had kind of wanted to stay but had essentially been too nervous and felt too much like an outsider.

Things I think about:

1. I feel like I can't tell whether people want to talk to me or not, so I tend to leave rather than risk talking to them when they wish I wouldn't.
2. I tend to feel that my friends would probably rather talk to other people at the party than to me, so I usually skulk rather than talk--that is, I figure my friends don't mind talking to me when there's no better options but at a party there are.

These are both bad ideas.

Things that help a little:

1. Really internalizing that you've got a lot of opportunities to meet people in life. When I feel that one evening is really low-stakes, I'm much more likely to go.
2. Being really, truly comfortable spending an evening alone. When I worked in Shanghai I had no friends at all for the first four months. This really got me down, but I got in the habit of taking a bike ride when I felt lonely. Eventually I had a whole evening and weekend bike ride routine that I really enjoyed. I actually always had happy evening plans, so I felt that I could accept or reject invitations (which eventually came) without any desperation.

Maybe also accepting that certain events are going to be really difficult for you and letting yourself off the hook a bit? I've found that since I've accepted that rooms full of semi-strangers are scary and that rooms full of activists are worse, I can often talk myself through at least some of my anxieties.

Also, bring food to events. People will talk to you. Especially if you make cakes. If you grow famous for your cakes (as I have--although this is testimony to the local lack of cake skillz rather than to my special snowflake-ness) you may find yourself getting asked about for your baking.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:15 PM
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Those are good points, Frowner, and I've actually already adopted a few of them (which is why, despite my moping last night, this isn't actually that big a deal for me anymore). The "being truly comfortable spending an evening alone" part has been key.

I don't think bringing food really works for me given my own anxieties, though. Among the worst kinds of events for me are those where I'm expected to bring something.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:27 PM
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159: You could be the bucket of chicken guy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:29 PM
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That would require acquiring a bucket of chicken, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:34 PM
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Half-empty Tub of Onion Dip and Generic Chips guy?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:35 PM
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My graduate school days were years ago, so I don't think anybody would notice the copying.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:37 PM
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As another anti-social party hater, something else that helps a bit is rescuing people who look more miserable than you do. If you see someone else nervously lurking by the pretzels and unable to break into anyone's conversation, you know that at least you're not spoiling their evening or wasting their time, they were already hating life.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:44 PM
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I think I've mostly gotten over my problems with what to do at the events. Where I still have trouble is with getting myself to go to them in the first place.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:46 PM
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Well teo, once you've invested in the bucket of chicken, that should provide some incentive.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:50 PM
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If you grow famous for your cakes... you may find yourself getting asked about for your baking.

This one doesn't usually get me more than 5 minutes of "Oh, look, did you see the cake Di brought?" "Wow, great cake." "Um thanks."

.... long awkward silence...

"So, um, I'm going to go get a drink... "


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:50 PM
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166: True enough, especially since I don't even like chicken.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:52 PM
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I had kind of wanted to stay but had essentially been too nervous and felt too much like an outsider

I've had this even in groups of my direct, personal friends. One-on-one, I do just fine. They all get together, suddenly they are all sharing stories about remodeling their basements and being home all day with the kids and I start thinking they all have a lot more in common with one another than I have with any of them.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 2:55 PM
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167: The cake is an in, though. And then you tell them about the recipe and then everyone talks about cakes. That's how I met my vegan potluck cohort.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:02 PM
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That's how I met my vegan potluck cohort.

The bucket of chicken strategy is probably deprecated in your cohort, huh?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:04 PM
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I may need to learn to bake vegan cakes then.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:05 PM
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Highly recommend root beer floats as a party bring-along. No one remembers the last time they had one; everyone is startled and pleased to have a chance to have one; easy as pie to bring and make.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:12 PM
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everyone is startled and pleased to have a chance to have one

STOP OPPRESSING ME.


Posted by: OPINIONATED LACTOSE-INTOLERANT | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:17 PM
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I have no party to go to tonight, but now I really want a root beer float! I can't remember the last time I had one!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:18 PM
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Suffer quietly, dear.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:18 PM
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everyone is startled

Root-beer float lovers are Republicans!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:19 PM
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Oops! Sorry, Di. I meant to be oppressing the lactose-intolerant.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:21 PM
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No worries, Megan. I was startled at first, but the figured it right out.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 3:54 PM
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Hmm. Yeah, the bucket of food helps, and a Dr. Pepper float never hurt anyone, but seriously, where are the recommendations for tequila?

Tequila cures introversion most excellently. Of course, it has other side effects.

max
['But none of those involve being shy.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 4:09 PM
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Did it ever occur to you, max, that the consequences of tequila are why some of us are awkward about these social events? "Nice to see you again... Um, sorry about your shoes."

My biggest hang up is socializing in a professional setting -- where I find overindulgence a risky crutch. Smoking, however, was great. All the socially awkward people wandered outside for a cigarette and ound each other.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 4:42 PM
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In my long ago experience, second-hand tequila was a significant mortality factor for nearby furniture. For several interpretations of "second-hand tequila".

Preview sucks sometimes.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 4:44 PM
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181: Did it ever occur to you, max, that the consequences of tequila are why some of us are awkward about these social events?

1) More tequila.
2) That's what the phrase 'I HATE YOU PEOPLE' was invented for!

All the socially awkward people wandered outside for a cigarette and ound each other.

I dunno about socially awkward - more like cool.

max
['Of cours,e you could substitute purple punch.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 4:49 PM
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Oh how I miss that aspect of cigarettes. There are 350-400 employees at my company, but I met and got to know *all* of the smokers.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:21 PM
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We used to have a low rail bridge out the door where we smoked. So, if a truck hit the bridge, at least I looked like a smoker, not a gawker.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:32 PM
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184: I sometimes hang out with them even though I don't smoke. More interesting that sitting at my desk inside.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:36 PM
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I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that and remain a non-smoker very long.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:50 PM
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Yeah, probably only an option for someone who knows they aren't going to start.

Blanket generalization: Smokers are more interesting people than non-smokers.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:55 PM
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Well, they seem to be more sociable people anyhow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:56 PM
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Yes, but ex-smokers are generally nervous and cranky.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:56 PM
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190: Curable by giving them a cigarette


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:57 PM
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Can I bum a smoke, JP?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:58 PM
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191: Yes, and only slightly ameliorated by nicotine replacement.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 5:59 PM
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I don't think it is a coincidence that the nicest office I ever had was in a converted tobacco warehouse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:01 PM
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I've found it really isn't about the nicotine for me. The patches, gum, and lozenges are all kinda unpleasant. I just like the feeling of smoking. If I had the free time, lack of responsibilities, and budget to smoke pot all day long, that would probably work just as well. Alas, none of the three.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:02 PM
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195: Yeah. Nicotine is addictive, but it's the habit part I miss the most, the feel of the cigarette in my hand, lifting it to my lips, smoke filling my lungs, slowly exhaling...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:19 PM
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192: Can I bum a smoke, JP?

Sure. Get one from the nearest smoker and have them bill me. God damn the pusher man.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:23 PM
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196: Cigarettes, the other way to die a little.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:24 PM
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Get one from the nearest smoker

Nobody here but the wife and kids, I'm afraid. I have a box of cigars--pretty nice ones, even--but it just isn't the same.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:27 PM
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the feel of the cigarette in my hand

"The thing that has been missing from your hand," yes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:28 PM
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Maybe you could just palpate a cigarette every so often?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:31 PM
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I LIKE SMOKING! I LIKE NICOTINE! WHEE! I ALREADY SAID THIS!

Anyways. This whole 'it's better for you' is bullshit. You ain't gettin' no health care anyways!

max
['Who needs willpower, dammit?']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:32 PM
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201: That's like the equivalent of "We could just lie here and hold each other."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:33 PM
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Fuck willpower! Give in to the dark side! Only 39.95$ all this week!


Posted by: Emperor Palpitate | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:34 PM
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203: Wait--are you saying that's not the same as sex?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:36 PM
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After I just lie there and hold a woman, I like to palpate a cigarette.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:37 PM
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Damn, Otto stole my joke. Thank god I hit preview.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:37 PM
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Then I drink a Diet Coke and eat a Boca Burger.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:38 PM
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205: I -- I don't really remember. I quit that nasty habit, too.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:38 PM
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208: No slandering the Diet Coke, which is my one and true addiction.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:39 PM
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207: I'm so sorry, (). Please don't call the cops on me--they never make anything together. Let's settle this like the good anarchist collective we are, OK?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:40 PM
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"together" s/b "better"

Thesis: Making corrections to jokes robs them of funny to an even greater extent than explaining them does.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:41 PM
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211: It's ok. You phrased it better. (Mine was, "You mean, there's more to it than that?")


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:41 PM
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Fuck it. I'm going to go smoke a cigar.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:46 PM
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||

I just won a case!

|>


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:48 PM
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215: Hurrah!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:49 PM
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Woo! Hook 'em Di!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:50 PM
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215: They didn't have a chance. Congratulations.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 6:51 PM
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205, 207: Dear diary, I never thought I'd find the perfect guy/gal, but then tonight ...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:00 PM
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Congrats, Di.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:06 PM
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A case of what?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:07 PM
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A Case of You, of course.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:08 PM
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I think she meant that she won the nominative case. Objective case is next on her list, then dative.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:10 PM
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Objective case? What language are we talking about here?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:11 PM
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[Consults Wikipedia.]

Another way to make a joke less funny: flubbing a linguistics reference.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:18 PM
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224: The language of love, teo.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:19 PM
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Hot Randian love, that is.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:20 PM
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228

Ah, okay. I know that language.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:21 PM
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228: You're supposed to order in a breathless, husky voice?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:25 PM
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A case of cigarettes. If I'm going to fall off the wagon, I'm going all out.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:25 PM
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Now is no time for half-measures.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:33 PM
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(Wanders back in) Smoke 'em if you got 'em and love the one you're with, even if you're by yourself.

And congrats, Di, that's cool!

max
['Leading people down the path of sin and iniquity? Who, me? NEVER!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 7:55 PM
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232: Hmm. I don't got 'em and I'm with my kid, so your ordinarily sage counsel has fallen short this evening. Alas. But I'm sure I'll catch you on that path another time.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-11-09 8:03 PM
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I love how this all started with Willpower, and ended up as discussion of people's former smoking habits and how they all really want a cigarette, but through the least expected and most circuitous connection.


Posted by: briefly visible | Link to this comment | 09-12-09 6:43 PM
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briefly visible is banned!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-12-09 6:54 PM
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(not really. Just trying to make you feel like part of the gang.)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-12-09 8:14 PM
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Just briefly banned? The last time I checked here my comment didn't show up for me, and I actually thought that might be the case.


Posted by: briefly visible | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 6:54 PM
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Briefly visible is banned for thinking it might have been banned! Everyone knows no one gets banned around here except that one guy. And Charlie. And that other guy a while back.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:01 PM
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We've kind of fallen out of practice with the "is banned!" thing, haven't we?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:04 PM
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Kind of like the fruit baskets, come to think of it. This place used to be so much more welcoming.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:05 PM
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The fruitbasket got link rot. And was foul to begin with, which is probably why it rotted.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:06 PM
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I tried to replace it with a kinder, gentler fruit basket link, but it didn't really catch on.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:06 PM
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The foulness was sort of key. Who wants a kind, gentle fruit basket? Next thing we'd have animated smiley faces in the comments, and then Ogged would return from his long sleep to smite us all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:10 PM
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243: No, good god. There have to remain some standards. Analogy ban. No emoticons. Uh, also well-formed sentences. But now we're in dangerous territory. I'm not even going to talk about earnestness. And self-righteousness is strictly for advanced users.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:17 PM
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201: That's like the equivalent of "We could just lie here and hold each other."

I've suggested that before. Performance anxiety increases exponentially with respect to the amount of time one has known a woman before kissing her for the first time.


Posted by: James K. Polk | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:22 PM
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I can't believe b.v. fell for that whole "you're not really banned" trick.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 7:34 PM
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Performance anxiety increases exponentially with respect to the amount of time one has known a woman before kissing her for the first time.

Makes sense.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:10 PM
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Performance anxiety increases exponentially with respect to the amount of time one has known a woman before kissing her for the first time.

There is, IMHO, a shelf-life on romantic tension. You let it sit too long, you'd better just move on.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:17 PM
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That makes sense too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:18 PM
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The same goes for butter.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:18 PM
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Love is like butter. Rich and tempting, often bad for your heart, eventually goes rancid if you don't keep it chill.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:23 PM
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238: And that other guy a while back.

And ME!

248: You let it sit too long, you'd better just move on.

You people with your impatience. No wonder you have no willpower.

max
['And no wonder they advertise viagra incessantly.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:24 PM
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Butter can be an effective grease in sticky romantic situations.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-13-09 8:26 PM
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