Re: More vatic wisdom

1

This is the second time today that a non-religious Jewish man has talked to me about "Jewish-looking" women. Orthodox Jewish people don't seem to make these judgments. Are orthodox Jews in America more diverse? I can only tell they're Jewish by dress/hair.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 6:52 PM
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Like, of course I think I know what you're talking about as an American stereotype, but it's not useful for describing orthodox women/men.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 6:57 PM
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Orthodox Jewish people don't seem to make these judgments.

Ain't got the Tallis, get out of the Palace. Looks are irrelevant.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 6:58 PM
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I have no idea what 3 means.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 6:58 PM
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1: Orthodox men are not going to be talking about women and their looks with you.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:00 PM
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1: I think the only thing that's going on is that being stereotypically "Jewish looking" is a far from overwhelmingly common appearance among any subgroup of Jews, whether secular, Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox. I doubt it's less common among Orthodox Jews than among anyone else, but probably not more common either.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:00 PM
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Are orthodox Jews in America more diverse?

No, they're just more recognizable by their dress and hair.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:00 PM
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The other conversation I had was when I said I always get asked on holidays if I'm Jewish, and a (non-religious) Jewish friend scoffed that anyone could make such a mistake, since I'm so so not-Jewish-looking. But orthodox Jews seem to think it's not so ridiculous to be a blonde, Germanic-looking Jewish woman.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:02 PM
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Hey, speaking of Jew-related concerns, doesn't this almond/chocolate/orange torte look good? I think I'm going to bring it to a seder, unless reading the recipe again reveals flour I missed the first time through.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:05 PM
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Orthodox Jews live in a very different world from the one most of the rest of us live in.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:08 PM
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Relevant: which character on Glee, the stereotypically Jewish-looking Rachel or the Asian Tina is played by the actress Jenna Ushkowitz?

The answer is exactly what you might think, if you considered that I'm asking the question at all!

(Also character Tina's last name is "Cohen-Chang". But anyway. Relevant!)


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:12 PM
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Does "Jewish looking" here refer to something more specific than looking like any Mediterranean ethnic group? (along the coast from say, Italy to Israel/Palestine.)

They are, to be fair, some really hott ethnic groups, both on the male and female sides.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:14 PM
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Dark, curly hair, big nose, and possibly (but not necessarily) olive-ish skin tone are the main defining characteristics of the look if it's the one I'm thinking of.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:16 PM
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"Big" is oversimplified on the nose -- there are classes of big nose that don't look Jewish at all. I think 'aquiline' works a little better to get the look across.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:19 PM
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So they could be Greek or Lebanese or whatever.

Yeah, that shit is hot. Especially the eyebrows.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:20 PM
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Also, the "stereotypically Jewish-looking" Rachel has (in real life) a Sicilian mother. She's also more or less "stereotypically Italian looking" -- it's complicated!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:21 PM
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14: Yeah, "aquiline" is a better term for the nose.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:25 PM
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There is a sort of college-aged woman that gives off "hangs out at Hillel" vibes to me. I can't quite describe the look, apart from "looks like I probably dated her in college."

Also, I think stereotypically Orthodox Jewish-looking men and women look very different from stereotypically non-Orthodox Jewish-looking men and women.


Posted by: emdash | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:25 PM
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I think stereotypically Orthodox Jewish-looking men and women look very different from stereotypically non-Orthodox Jewish-looking men and women.

For one thing, they're typically wearing more clothing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:27 PM
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There's sort of a full milkmaid's cheeks and round nose that I think of as being very Jewish looking.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:29 PM
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19: I was just going to say that.

And the covered hair thing kills off the 'big curly hair' part of the stereotype as well for Orthodox women.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:29 PM
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My dad's highly aquiline nose has the feature that when he eats spicy food, a clear drop of cloudy water will suspend from the tip for a long time, then drop off, and then the next droplet will form and dangle precariously for minutes.

Of course I grew up assuming this was what a post-nasal drip is. I got into a vehement argument with someone over this. I was so sure I was right.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:34 PM
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I think a lot of what's going on with Orthodox v. non-Orthodox is that with Orthodox people, you have a clear and unambiguous sign that they are Jewish in the way they dress that makes anything about their physical features irrelevant. I see a lot of Orthodox Jews these days, and many (perhaps most) are not people I would automatically think of as probably being Jewish if I had seen them without the garb. They don't "look Jewish," that is, but of course they are. If a non-Orthodox Jewish person looked that way, no one would necessarily know they were Jewish just by looking at them. And there are of course many, many such people, who are Jewish but don't "look it." It's just that no one knows that they're Jewish without getting to know them better, so the physical stereotype remains.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:35 PM
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Like, of course I think I know what you're talking about as an American stereotype, but it's not useful for describing orthodox women/men.

So who says I was trying to describe Orthodox women/men in terms of their looks? Note the disjunction.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:45 PM
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Is this post in reference to something in particular? Or is neb just making an announcement?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 7:56 PM
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Uh, "vatic wisdom", hello?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:02 PM
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Yeah, I just wondered if something had spurred the utterance of the vatic wisdom.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:10 PM
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Nothing spurs me to utter vatic wisdom like sexy jewesses.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:11 PM
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And the good news was enjoyed by all.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:12 PM
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I didn't realize there was a distinctive garb for (non-Hasidic) Orthodox Jews.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:14 PM
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And the good news was enjoyed by all.

There isn't actually any good news. (Except this good news.)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:15 PM
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32

There is if you give your heart to Jesus, neb.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:17 PM
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33

You didn't follow the link in 31, did you, apo?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:19 PM
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I did, but still. It's right on the cover, yo.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:21 PM
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Apo is freaking embarrassing me, man. I grew up on a (paperback version of) that good news bible, and those words still do resonate, but I thought I'd be slipping it in under the radar.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:28 PM
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There is a sort of college-aged woman that gives off "hangs out at Hillel" vibes to me. I can't quite describe the look, apart from "looks like I probably dated her in college."

Mediterranean-looking, plus non-flowing skirt?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:35 PM
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37

You didn't follow the link either, did you, parsimon?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:36 PM
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White Bear, did I offend thereby? I don't even know if I mean "you don't look it" or "you don't set off my 'dar." I was telling Someone We Both Know recently that, long story elided, I knew of Jewdar, which I don't think gets called that, long before I knew of gaydar. In fact when I explained gaydar to my mother, I explained it in terms of that one time she couldn't tell me how she knew the guy was one of us; she just knew. Anyway much as I like my fellow deracinators and deracinatrices, it is no slight that I wouldn't take you for one of us.

I am still getting my bearings here. I don't know if this is a stupid conversation to be having in the public space of the commentariat. Sheepish apologies if such are due.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:40 PM
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Moshe was shocked when he heard the news
He couldn't believe he and Jesus were both Jews
"How can we be the same
When this longhair's got a Mexican name?"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:41 PM
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37: I did. I'm not sure what light Freud sheds, since I don't know what the question or problem is.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:46 PM
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I can't believe you people. Ogged got the joke. Everything you need to get the joke is in the comment. God.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:49 PM
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I'm probably not the person to explain this best, but I think some of the above would be clarified by distinctions such as "modern Orthodox" (fewer sartorial signifiers) and then Orthodox vs. Hasidic of course. For instance, re 30, it's my impression that non-Hasidic, Orthodox juives (so much more elegant a distinction in French somehow. Jewess sounds like a profession) still wear a, whatstit, sheidl? Sheitl? The wig that usually makes a person look like Shirley Feeney. You'd think someone would design less dowdy ones for the discerning juive, but...


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:49 PM
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Mister Smearcase, I'm sure you're doing terribly at figuring out what's expected of you, but I love your pseud. I have a cat named Sullivan.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:55 PM
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I want to record an album, or write a book, called Jewess in Furs. True fact. At least, I think something called that should exist. Please let me know if the use of "jewess" weirds you guys out. Hitherto I've only used it with my hebrethren.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 8:58 PM
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k-sky thanks for the latter and as to the former, well...I realized a very long time ago that you can't learn, say, Russian without that period where you say "I would like to smoke a newspaper" and everyone turns purple, so I decided just to throw myself in here and see if I eventually get it or not. If it comes to it, I am relatively good at retreating in silent humiliation.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:04 PM
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And we're pretty good at stewing in loud humiliation. So either way rocks.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:05 PM
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"Joe Louis and the Low Jewess: A Historical Romance"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:08 PM
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Knock. Knock.

Who's there?

Joe.

Joe who?

Joe Jewess.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:14 PM
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Russian without that period where you say "I would like to smoke a newspaper" and everyone turns purple

That's a dank newspaper.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:25 PM
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41: Sorry. The most obvious thing that occurs to me about Jewish people with regard to their families is that there may be pressure to date, or marry, only another Jewish person.

Please let me know if the use of "jewess" weirds you guys out.

It weirds me out. But I'm not sure why anybody being weirded out would be relevant. I have a funny relationship to Jewishness anyway, since I may or may not be Jewish -- it's plausible -- but don't know, because I'm adopted. Identity tied to bloodlines is a foreign language. I don't speak that language. If you speak it, that's fine.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:25 PM
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I want to record an album, or write a book, called Jewess in Furs.

Homonymically, Juice in Furze is perhaps overspecifically targeted to those few fool gardeners given to watering their potted evergreens with OJ.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:27 PM
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The most obvious thing that occurs to me about Jewish people with regard to their families is that there may be pressure to date, or marry, only another Jewish person.

This is hardly unique to Jews, right?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:32 PM
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53

Uh, forget I said anything, okay?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:33 PM
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54

OK. Jesus Christ. I can't believe I have to explain this shit. See, L. had said this, right? I quoted it: "As if your Jewish friends are in any position to tell you how you really feel about your family.". Because, you know, how you feel about your family, it's like, private, right? Other people can't just know shit like that even if they are Jewishyour friends.

Are you with me so far? Is that clear? We're about to take a step—laterally. Pay attention! This often happens when purported humor is about. Someone says something and you sort of, you have to look sideways to see how it relates to what's come before. Indische Mathematiker: "Sieh dies an!" Ok, so then I say "haven't you heard the good news" thereby alluding to, you know, the Good News, and link to Freud.

Freud was a Jew! And here's the other thing about Freud—he knows what you think about your family, maybe even better than you do. No secrets from Freud! He's like Santa Claus, or J e s u s that way.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:35 PM
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55

54 is both necessary and sufficient, humor-wise. What? Shut up. Shut up!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:36 PM
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I got it, neb. Really I did. But... I didn't think it was all that funny. I'm sorry.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:37 PM
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Sometimes a picture of Freud is not just a picture of Freud.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:37 PM
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write a book, called Jewess in Furs Wasn't Herr Leopold of Leopolis famed for his philosemitism?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:39 PM
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I don't mind if you didn't think it was funny (principally because ogged, devotional acts to whom all my attempts at humor are, did), as long as you at least understood it.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:39 PM
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Ogged is supporting you in email?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:40 PM
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61

The Lur supports him in email.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:41 PM
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His memory lives on in my memory.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:42 PM
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Somehow, pelagianism wasn't in the associations in 54. neb must have recently undergone a plagiostomi.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:42 PM
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62: He truly was the master at subtly trolling his own blog.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:46 PM
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Oh, right. Scrolling down or keeping track of which thread I'm reading is beyond my capacity. I'm sort of Btock-style at the moment.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:52 PM
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54: Yes, I got that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 9:56 PM
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67

I hate you.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 10:05 PM
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68

Actually, I rather like recycled Freud jokes.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 10:08 PM
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Apologies. I don't want to fight. I hadn't quite seen that you were playing on the "good news" thing as well, since I tend to think of that as a very embarrassingly local reference, apparently wrongly. I somewhat hope that "I hate you" is a joke, but if not, peace anyway.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 10:12 PM
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67: it's "I hate you all", neb. Don't be non-canonical now!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-10 10:16 PM
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Hahaha, Sifu told a joke. Everyone laugh at Sifu's joke! It's funny, 'cause it's true!


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 3:53 AM
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||

Hopeful signs that DADT will be strangled by stealth before being legislatively repealed, as predicted here by yours truly.

The new policy doesn't go quite as far as I would have hoped to making DADT a de facto dead letter, but it does send a strong message, and puts the dismissal decision in the hands of senior officers who are more sensitive to political influence from their civilian bosses. As a practical matter, I would also expect it to materially improve the well-being of closeted service members as well as giving them hope of waiting out the clock until a statutory fix arrives.

[/whirly eyes]

|>


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 4:37 AM
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And to compensate for the self-indulgent pat on my own back in 72, I hereby acknowledge that owe Steve Benen a retraction if not an apology for this.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 4:53 AM
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Mr. Smearcase! I went to bed early, so I missed your comment. But no! I wasn't offended! I was asking an honest question, which is if the population we tend to think of as assimilated Jews in the US might actually have emerged from a really small and narrow origin. From of the OJs I know, there's really no way to define "Jewish-looking" outside of clothes. Blonde, dark-haired, curly to straight hair, pale-white to dark brown skin, all kinds of facial features and eye colors. It seems obvious that "Jewish-looking" is a very silly stereotype with respect to OJs. Nobody ever confuses me for an RJ.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 6:03 AM
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Also, 5 is so, so so not true.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 6:05 AM
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The wig that usually makes a person look like Shirley Feeney.

It's out of fashion for young marrieds, who usually wear cool headscarves tied in a cute hippie way. Young singles, of course, need no such thing.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 6:29 AM
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From of the OJs I know, there's really no way to define "Jewish-looking" outside of clothes. Blonde, dark-haired, curly to straight hair, pale-white to dark brown skin, all kinds of facial features and eye colors.

I really think this may reflect only the most recent few decades, where it's become unprecedentedly common to marry a non-Jew and get them to convert.

For example, I'd defend that there is a clear, identifiable phenotypic difference between people of Russian and Polish Jewish ancestry, and people of Russian and Polish nonJewish ancestry.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 7:15 AM
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78

with respect to OJs

I keep reading this as Orange Jewess.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 7:22 AM
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77.last: And this would be consistent* with the genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population had both paternal and maternal genetic markers that distinguished them from surrounding populations.

*Of course it is not essential that there be any visible phenotypic expression of any of the genetic differences.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 7:33 AM
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For some reason I tend to trigger Jewdar among secular Jews on first meeting. The observant see right through me.

77.2: This happened with two friends of mine, a barely-observant Jew and a red haired freckle faced fellow who might as well be the type specimen for Irish-American. I think the core issue was planning for kids and wanting a concrete and robust social structure more than religious enthusiasm that inspired the conversion, but it's been a long time, and memory is a lying bitch, so...


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 7:44 AM
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78
Now I sort of want an Orange Julius only I'm never sure they exist anymore. Well, no, I googled once and the nearest was in maybe New Jersey.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:22 AM
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I just saw a recipe linked somewhere. There was some ungodly amount of sugar in it -- like, half a cup in a serving.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:26 AM
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Here. You know, a decent bar would have all those ingredients -- you could go order one and throw a shot of something in it to make it a drink. And then face the inevitable consequences.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:31 AM
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84: I used to make something like that for breakfast in high school, with vanilla and all. Loved it. Fresh OJ means less sugar, too. The thought makes my aged sensitive tummy hurt though.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:34 AM
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It's rare enough to find a bar that will make even a Brandy Alexander. I mean, I've heard. Um.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:45 AM
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To the OP: I've often felt the same way about the relative attractiveness of Jewish women vs. Gentile women. I've always ascribed it to the fact that, growing up around here, you get kinda tired of blond, nordic types. Of course, around here, a surprisingly large number of blond, nordic types are Jews. And, per the actress mentioned, a lot of Asian women you meet in certain UMC circles are Korean adoptees, some of them having been adopted into Jewish families.

But that's all a circumlocution around the fact that the combination of dark hair, prominent nose and more-or-less olive complexion has always struck me as very arresting.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:47 AM
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Yeah, I am pretty certain there is still an Orange Julius in the Monmouth Mall in Eatontown, NJ. (It's next to an exit on the Highway 35 side, just past the Macy's.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:50 AM
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86: Yeah, as much as it is tempting to get the fuck out of the meat-grinder that is the NYC dating scene, at least being blonde is a rarity here. In the midwest, I never really stood a chance at being attractive, as girls who look like me are a dime a dozen.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:51 AM
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the combination of dark hair, prominent nose and more-or-less olive complexion has always struck me as very arresting.

Gee, Natilo, you're kinda cute yourself.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GERALDO RIVERA | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:53 AM
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Somewhere, there's a place where pink-faced with mousy hair looks appealingly exotic. I suppose I looked exotic in Samoa, but in a "Good lord, what's wrong with your face" kind of way, rather than anything attractive.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:54 AM
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91: Exactly! I've been thinking about places I would move to around the world, and one of the things I have to figure in is whether I will be considered reasonably fuckable in these places. I would love to move to China, for instance, but am informed that white US chicks might as well have their vaginas removed upon entering the country. France? I'm too fat to get laid. LA? That job rejected me anyway, but I didn't count my sexual chances there very highly. A couple of jobs in England are promising, and British people seem to find me reasonably un-repulsive.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 8:59 AM
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Dammit, numbershift!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:00 AM
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A NZ friend of mine who looked kind of like you (I haven't seen her since the Peace Corps -- but about your build, and the same sort of giant cloud of curly hair, although red rather than blond) taught English in Japan, and was apparently considered appealing by the locals. Unfortunately, it wasn't mutual -- she languished after the male expats rather than dating Japanese guys, and the male expats dated local women.

So you can't win.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:04 AM
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In all probability the male expats were there specifically to date the local women.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:06 AM
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male expats dated local women

Yes, I've heard this about expats in China as well. The locals find white women ugly/slutty, while white men are treated like Brad Pitt clones. What is to be done?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:09 AM
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I do relate to the OP, because I've got baggage around my mother and grandmother's dogged passion for assimilation.

I'm embarrassed about this because I secretly fear that my discomfort merely amounts to "I don't want to be white! That's so boring and mainstream!" The discomfort is real, but I'm very embarrassed about it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:10 AM
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91: Where are they really into geeky white guys? Peruvian prostitutes seem to like me.

P.S. I can't believe this thread can approach Kobe without a mention of Lisa Edelstein.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:11 AM
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97: I was reading something by J@mes St. J@/mes (90s club kid, friend of Michael whatsisname who killed Angel whatsisname) and he was talking about Lisa E., NYU student and "The Queen of Downtown." Dr. Cuddy? Who knew?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:16 AM
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France?

Has a large population of both Brits and French speakers from the Maghreb and Lebanon who do not buy into French ideals of fussy beauty. I can't tell you what the guys are into, but I like Lebanese food and music a lot more after having been there for a while.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:18 AM
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99: True (kobe). Lebanese dudes seem to like me.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:19 AM
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A couple of jobs in England are promising, and British people seem to find me reasonably un-repulsive.

I've only ever seen pictures of you in mid-party, but I don't think a lack of interest in you would be the problem here so much as a lack of interest by you in the available talent. Sorry to hear about the LA job.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:22 AM
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Also, British people are slutty enough* that, really, you'd get laid as much as you like anyway.

* and I say that in the least pejorative way possible


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:23 AM
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Crossed-over with OFE, but that too...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:24 AM
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Also, both Beijing and shanghai are so polluted that your snot will be black 4 days out of 5.

Also also, Chinese run pretty earnest IME. Finding a place that values recreational irony is probably a consideration. What about south america, or Europe east of Germany?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:25 AM
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In all probability the male expats were there specifically to date the local women.

Now, now. I did date the local women (well, a couple of them), but it wasn't the reason for my being there.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:27 AM
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104: Eastern Europe is definitely a possibility. South America would be ideal, as I speak very nice Argentinian Spanish.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:28 AM
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I did date the local women (well, a couple of them)

An important qualifier, lest we mistakenly believe you dated every woman in Japan.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:29 AM
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re: 104

I don't know how you feel, but my experience of the Czech R. is that the local men aren't that interested in women other than the local women.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:35 AM
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Everyone's talking about the defining characteristics being curly hair, Levantine nose, etc, all of which is true but leaves out half the story: the key part of the Jewish girl look is the body: a bit short, with, ah, more than ample bosoms and bottoms and thighs.If you can't grab two handfuls and roll around on it, it ain't what we're talking about. Dark curly hair and that nose on a tall thin girl would just be Italian or something.


Posted by: Abraham Lincoln | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:39 AM
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97.last to 109.last.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:45 AM
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109: A friend with those characteristics described herself as "built for comfort, not for speed."


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:51 AM
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Is she after the men?

AWB is clever, her competitive advantage will not be a noisy bar but friends-of-friends who talk to her for a while I guess. I haven't met her in person, no idea if there's some property of affect that will work against her.

Also, I have a pretty tenous understanding of cultural norms in the US where I live full-time, much less a place that I really just visit and where I see youth culture through the eyes of my cousins and a few others. As for France, I have a better understanding of which subpopulations of women tend to go for guys like me, and basically none for AWBs likely target audience.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:52 AM
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I secretly fear that my discomfort merely amounts to "I don't want to be white! That's so boring and mainstream!" The discomfort is real, but I'm very embarrassed about it.

Time to discover a Cherokee princess among your ancestors.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:56 AM
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friends-of-friends who talk to her for a while

Yeah, those people never, ever, ever get around to sleeping with me. I don't look it, but I'm only built for speed.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:56 AM
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I guess what I'm trying to say is: zaftig.


Posted by: Abraham Lincoln | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 9:56 AM
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Zaftig is a word so shameful that only presidents can say it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:03 AM
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I didn't have an exact stereotype of what Jewish women look like, but 109 describes a Jewish girlfriend I once had exactly.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:03 AM
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Zaftig is great, but the one Jewish woman I went out with, who I thought was quite attractive, is anything but zaftig.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:03 AM
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114. One thing in your favour in Britain then is that British me under 70 never, repeat never, object to being asked.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:03 AM
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Bit of a Freudian slip there, eh guvnor?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:05 AM
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Time to discover a Cherokee princess among your ancestors.

See, I was hoping my particular discomfort was not this lame.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:05 AM
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I guess what I'm trying to say is: zaftig hawt!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:05 AM
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119: I've noticed! American men often seem to feel terribly insulted (emasculated?) if a woman comes onto them, even if it's a woman they like. I've never had that reaction from a British guy.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:07 AM
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I never objected in the least, Natilo. If I had I'd likely never have copped off with the missus.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:07 AM
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re: 123

See every 'UK versus US dating habits' thread, ever.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:07 AM
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Seminole princess?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:08 AM
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Semolina pilchard?


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:08 AM
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Because it is more location specific for you and not quite so mainstream as a Cherokee princess.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:09 AM
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I thought you were making a JAP joke, sort of.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:09 AM
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The Anglophone facility of irony, ime, is wholly without rival. I suppose the Argentinians are among the most irony-adept of the Iberian peoples, but South American humor tends to run towards the puerile.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:09 AM
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I've never seen "Iberian" used that way. Is it common?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:11 AM
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American men often seem to feel terribly insulted (emasculated?) if a woman comes onto them

NOT THIS ONE.

Though in all honesty, I've been utterly oblivious to it on several occasions in the past. Much to my extreme chagrin when it was explained too late.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:11 AM
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I know 131 is sincere, because AWB is a nice person, but it makes me laugh to read it dripping with sarcasm.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:13 AM
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One can't be emasculated by what one doesn't notice.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:13 AM
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134: If they didn't notice, they wouldn't suddenly stop speaking to me.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:14 AM
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Oh no. I wasn't making a JAP joke. I was going off old conversations about claiming Cherokee ancestry. Which I remember in particular, because I'm among the sinners.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:15 AM
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I meant Apostropher's dilemma. I believe that men are acting very peculiar to you in the ways you describe.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:16 AM
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138

Jammies did not realize I was flirting with him when I got him to stay behind after all the other guests, alone, after my birthday party, and we were on my couch with my legs in his lap. In fact, I had been flirting with him for months. I just kissed him finally, and that worked.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:17 AM
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Oh no. I wasn't making a JAP joke. I was going off old conversations about claiming Cherokee ancestry. Which I remember in particular, because I'm among the sinners.

Oh. Make a JAP joke about me! Then I can hold it up as withering proof that goyim consider me other.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:18 AM
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139: you're such a JAP you think bread is a sandwich!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:20 AM
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It's quite common not to realise that someone you fancy is coming on to you. I assume it's because people subconsciously can't believe their luck. If you don't fancy the other person it's usually painfully obvious.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:20 AM
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123: American men often seem to feel terribly insulted (emasculated?) if a woman comes onto them

American men overall have tenuously attached genitals. It's quite strange to me, but anxious masculinity is much more in your face here than anywhere else I've ever lived. It's not the same as machismo (which is obnoxious in its' own right), but something altogether darker and more pathetic. In the UK the manliest of manly men will dress up in women's clothing just for laughs. In the US it's rare enough that Giulliani is mocked for it even by leftists.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:24 AM
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If you don't fancy the other person it's usually painfully obvious.

I am not sure this is true. HG's story in 138 is how I've lost more friends than I care to recall, and they were all people who flirted outrageously with me--followed me around, laughed at my jokes, practically eye-batted at me. A lot of people act that way around me, and turn out to be disgusted and appalled if I make a move. It would be a lot easier if people who find me unattractive would act like I was unattractive.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:24 AM
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144

Confident masculinity.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:24 AM
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I laugh at ugly people's jokes all the time.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:25 AM
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146

Sounds like you need some new friends, AWB.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:26 AM
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147

Oh sure, but do you pat their thighs during conversation? Whisper seductively in their ears? Make salacious comments and smile?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:26 AM
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146: Well, this is easy, since they will never talk to me again. I have to make new friends pretty much all the time.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:27 AM
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Maximo is not afraid.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:28 AM
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I mean, this is crazy. If you like somebody, you're friends with them, why would you stop liking them because of a minor sexual misunderstanding? Unless maybe you're 15.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:29 AM
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150: It's NYC. Everyone is replaceable. Even close relationships basically mean nothing. I sometimes tire of my OH friends' tendency to treat each other like shit all the time and then say, "But we're friends for EVER!" But NYC is so the opposite that I'm not sure it's better.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:32 AM
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I think knowing when people find me attractive is my spidey-sense. Stories like 138 are nearly incomprehensible. The only times I've been wrong is when someone has been sending all the flirty signals but aren't actively flirting, exactly as per AWB's situation.* But I don't really recall any situations where someone has been actively sending signals my way, and I've missed them.

* some people seem to interact with almost everyone in a very sexualised/flirtatious manner. That's just their 'schtick', and I've been led astray by that once or twice in misinterpreting someone, say, doing exactly the sorts of things in 147 [and a lot more blatant than that, for that matter].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:32 AM
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152 is me, too. I pick up on even pretty subtle things. It sucks when it's just a show for other people or a habit, but I do notice.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:34 AM
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151: I know I've said this before, but this is not my experience of people who live in NYC, and as far as I know it is not their experience with their friends.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:35 AM
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151, 154: It isn't my experience at all either.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:52 AM
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151 I'm trying to unabbreviate OH friends and can't even come up with a confusing orange beverage this time. Oh, maybe state abbreviation. All caught up, I think.

That aside, I know what you're talking about...I had these friends in college who would do something rotten to one another and then say "I love you, [Name of wronged party]!" and everyone would laugh except [Wronged party] was usually laughing less heartily/convincingly. I've made a point since then of having friends who are good to one another as much as possible.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:53 AM
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There are people in NYC?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:53 AM
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I've made a point since then of having friends who are good to one another as much as possible.

This was a lesson I learned belatedly, but well.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:53 AM
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Oh. Makwho?
Orabngee a JAP joke about me!

Knock, Knock
Who's there?
Heebie
Orange you glad I didn't say JAP.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:54 AM
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OK, sorry. Everyone is I am replaceable. Somewhere in these conversations, I keep wanting to say that my therapist seems to think I'm really cool! But then, she's European.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:55 AM
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I think knowing when people find me attractive is my spidey-sense.

I would say that I'm remarkably oblivious in this regard, but come to think I can't think of when I've later found out that there were signals going on that I missed. Possibly I'm very perceptive and it just doesn't come up often.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:55 AM
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It sucks when it's just a show for other people or a habit

It does suck, or rather, is puzzling enough, if you manage to pick up on the fact that it's a habit, that there's not much for it but to come out and ask the person: Are you flirting with me? That is, do you mean it?

I've been known to become impatient with habitual flirters, since you wind up having to drag it out of them whether they actually mean anything in what they're doing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:59 AM
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121

Q: What do assimilated JAPs who discover a Cherokee princess in their ancestry make for dinner?

That probably didn't help. I don't think your regret over past assimilation is what you're afraid it is, though. I mean it could be in part a desire to be less white, with the baggage that comes with. And it could also be about terribly real things we lost in that generation like an entire language with a very vivid culture attached. Maybe your family is like mine in that grandparental generation used Yiddish just to keep the occasional secret from parental, but of course this was pretext for Americanizing the kids. And thus was lost something not at all trivial.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:59 AM
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I can't think of when I've later found out that there were signals going on that I missed

I would think that most of the time you wouldn't find out.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:00 AM
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(Honey, I Americanized the Kids, starring Rick Moranis, whose name was something else in The Old Country.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:01 AM
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You know, I hadn't put it together until just this minute, but maybe this thread is why I've had that goddamn song from An American Tail stuck in my head all morning.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:02 AM
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to come out and ask the person: Are you flirting with me? That is, do you mean it?

The preferred method is to appoint a trusted friend to send the would-be flirter a carefully-folded note that states

DO YOU LIKE [insert name here]

CHECK ONE

YES

NO


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:03 AM
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167: Silly grown-ups don't like answering straightforward questions. Any random member of the unfoggetariat would return a 25-page brick, exclaiming that they'd had to edit out a great deal.

Oh, but for best results, the note should read:

DO YOU LIKE LIKE [insert name here], you know, like, LIKE LIKE?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:10 AM
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I've never seen "Iberian" used that way. Is it common?

I suppose not in English, no. But I use it when talking about culture rather than countries or things. I mean, what else would you call it? Hispanic? Bleh.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:11 AM
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that goddamn song from An American Tail

"There are no cats in America" or the "Somewhere out there" one? Both are equal opportunity offenders for earworms for me.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:12 AM
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||
Finally some action on Wall Street corruption from DOJ
|>


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:14 AM
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"Somewhere out there"

Yep. I have no memory of the other one, for which I assume I should be thankful.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:21 AM
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172: It's a cute song, really. Kind of a "streets are paved with gold" type of thing for the emigrating mice, except the fantasy, as the title suggests, is that there are no cats in America. Total earworm, though. Do. Not. Listen.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:25 AM
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I mean, what else would you call it?

Mexican.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:32 AM
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Paved with cheese, Stanley. The streets are paved with cheese.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:40 AM
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OP , 77 and 79 led me to review some of the genetic findings on the origins of Jewish groups, and the Ashkenazi in particular. I knew the latter had a lot of genetically distinct features but to my eye their "look"* does not have all of the Levantine elements mentioned at various places in the thread. (How many stereotypes can I jam into one sentence? None more, none more stereotypes). Apparently there is better evidence (particularly on the paternal side) for a predominantly middle eastern origin than I had thought. Although, About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism.

*My mother-in-law insisted (and I think comforted herself) that I must be at least part Jewish because I had some of the look. If I had been blonde she would have plotzed.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:47 AM
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175: I didn't want to overload poor Sifu with too many elements of the actual song, neb. It's dangerous.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:47 AM
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Khazars!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:00 PM
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Haplogroups are extremely coarse, there will be huge variation to the eye within a haplogroup. Lapps and Basques are much more distant from Europeans in this sense than are Syrians or non-Kurdish Turks. Looks really are only skin deep.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:02 PM
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The Levantine gall bladder is very distinctive looking.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:05 PM
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143 Appalled or just not interested? Some people, male and female, are flirty and touchy feely with everyone. I find it slightly annoying since I'm a bit touch-phobic with non-lovers but, whatever.

On the OP, my dad looks very stereotypically Jewish and found it to be quite useful back when he was living in Poland as someone who was racially Jewish but didn't have much in the way of a Jewish identity. It allowed him to not bring it up without feeling like he was trying to hide it and thus catering to the racists. The stereotypical look may be far from universal, but it's certainly quite common. I don't know if it is really all that different from other 'Mediterranean' types, but back in the day it was quite distinctive for the societies where Ashkenazi Jews lived. On the other hand, my mom was saying that he got recognized by Turks in Istanbul (sitting in a restaurant, friendly locals come up and out of nowhere start mentioning specifically Jewish dishes and talking about local Jewish culture). But that might just have been a looks plus language deduction.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:06 PM
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178: Khazars!

At some point (Wikipedia says late 8th or 9th century) the ruling class (and possibly a lot more) of the Khazars converted to Judaism. There was some early "racial theory" work that purported to show that the main ancestors of the Ashkenazi were Khazars. The "results" have been used and abused by anti-Zionists etc. to this day, but apparently there is genetic evidence of some ancestry. An interesting historical thread with or without actual physical ancestry.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:40 PM
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At some point (Wikipedia says late 8th or 9th century) the ruling class (and possibly a lot more) of the Khazars converted to Judaism.

I know. And they fought with swords in Michael Chabon books.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:44 PM
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168: Except for the ones who would ask what p-value you wanted the answer significance tested at.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 12:55 PM
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183: Awesome Michael Chabon books.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 1:01 PM
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183: Oops, did not realize your enthusiasm was rooted in such specifics. Sigh, there was a time when I was up to date on the promising young writer, Michael Chabon.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 1:16 PM
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182 - I'd love to know where the abuse leaves off and the history picks up. I had thought there was a lot of truth to that for a while, and then my cursory attempt at research indicated that it was mostly used by anti-Semites to disprove connections to the Holy Land. (I realize we're juggling anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist here, but deploying racial theories against Jewish claims to Israel seems to satisfy the Venn diagram overlap.)

Also Dictionary of the Khazars is a cool book that takes as its premise that the ruler of the Khazars asked reps of each of the major monotheisms to make a case for their religion, and that each one claims to have won the day.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 3:31 PM
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Dictionary of the Khazars is a very cool book in style and conceit, but I read it as a coded apologia for extreme Serbian nationalism. Maybe I was seeing more in it than there was.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 3:40 PM
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My familiarity with it wanes after the first 25 or so (very lyrical) pages.

People also say that about Kusturica's Underground but that one I'll stick up for.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 3:46 PM
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188: hmm, I think I didn't know anything about Serbian nationalism when I read it, although I did so, ironically at the house of a Serbian/South Carolinian friend. It was inthe 80s, back when Serbian nationalism seemed quaint. Kind of like the Geneva conventions do now.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 10:21 PM
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I came across a straight-up historical mention of the Khazars-- Harun-al Rashid's eastern commanders in Khorasan had to cope with them, basically choosing to fight against Khazars or Byzantines. The only primary source mentioned was Masudi, I don't know whether he's more like Herodotus or Thucidides.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-26-10 11:07 PM
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191: There is no controversy on the historical existence of the Khazars and their importance in the Black Sea/Caucasus area at the time--in fact there appears to be period of time that historians call the Pax Khazarica. They ultimately seem to have been put out of business by the expanding Novgorod Rus in the late 10th century. The extent of the Jewish conversion is more sketchy, and the extent of their ancestry to the Ashkenazi that is really, really sketchy and which has been abused for political ends. Why it would even matter so much politically is of course a tragically effed up situation which of course continues to this day.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-27-10 8:50 AM
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