Re: A National Day of Slayer, on the other hand...

1

I can never understand this mindset. If you want to pray for your country, nothing's stopping you! Just don't ask the government to sponsor it.

And I really hate arguments like this:
"Their whole case is premised upon the idea that just because they claim to be offended by it, they should be able to challenge the National Day of Prayer statute and have it struck down," he says. "We disagree with that. The First Amendment simply doesn't provide any of us with a right not to be offended."

No, but the first amendment does provide all of us with a right not to have the government endorse religion. It's only because the Supremes are extremely hypocritical on this front that obvious violations like this and the insertion of "under God" into the Pledge have been allowed to stand. The logic of the jurisprudence is clear - it's just been ignored almost whenever it conflicts with "tradition".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:38 AM
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That quote is fucked-up, yes; though since it comes from a Supreme Court-involved lawyer, I suspect it's explicitly designed for the debate about who has standing to sue (which has a very convoluted jurisprudence).


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:41 AM
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Huh. I see I mixed up "from Wisconsin" and "in Wisconsin" in the post. Fixed. In Wisconsin.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:42 AM
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What Ginger said. My little freshmen always want to argue they should have the right to pray in school. Go ahead! I tell them. What's stopping you? Come on, I say -- start praying right now, I'll give you a minute. Rats, you can have three minutes. Five! How long do you need?

They stare at me like stunned deer. I've never once had any of them take me up on it.

Though I did get preached against at the local fundie church one time.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:43 AM
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I was thinking that the day before the "National Day of Prayer" should be designated as the "National Day of Questioning and Doubt", in which everyone is encouraged to spend time giving deep consideration to the possibility that maybe God simply doesn't exist. Those that made it through, faith intact, can go ahead and pray. The rest of us could go for pizza.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:57 AM
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I doubt pizza.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:59 AM
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Pray for us sinners in Wisconsin dot com.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 8:59 AM
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1: "The First Amendment simply doesn't provide any of us with a right not to be offended."

Somehow I do not believe that the person saying this believes it.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:04 AM
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6: Apizzism? Or is that found only in New Haven?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:05 AM
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I also doubt New Haven.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:06 AM
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heebie is totes strictly Old Haven in Wisconsin.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:07 AM
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Ask me about how I found five dollars--in Wisconsin!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:19 AM
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Separation of church and state is the one issue that trumps all others for me. Funny* that the modern president who was hands down the best on that issue was an evangelical from Georgia.

*Actually it makes perfect sense if you're familiar with Baptist history (before the current set of wackholes took control), and every day I love Jimmy Carter a little more than I did the day before.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:24 AM
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14

A Wisconsin atheist carried my luggage.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:33 AM
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For me a national day of questioning and doubt would be just like any other day. I suppose something similar is true for a lot of these "day of prayer" types. Yet they don't think a national day of prayer is superfluous.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:47 AM
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Oh, man. We should start a rumor that the National Day of Prayer is Obama's seekrit plot to get socialized prayer. I bet some heads would just explode from the confused reaction.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:51 AM
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16 is fantastic. To the facebook status bars!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:57 AM
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13: I say Yes! to Jimmy Carter.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:59 AM
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We should start a rumor that the National Day of Prayer is Obama's seekrit plot to get socialized prayer.

Obama: "Why not have a National Day of Prayer every day? In fact, once a day isn't enough. I say we do it five times per day! With a special one at the end of the workweek. And wouldn't it be even better if we marked the occasion by everyone facing the same direction?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 9:59 AM
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seekrit plot to get socialized prayer

I was a single-prayer advocate, but I can go along with Obama's plan for an individual mandate to pray at a private church, as long as the churches can't discriminate against congregants with a preexisting perdition.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:03 AM
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||
IT'S HOLE!

Woke up this morning and checked my email to find out that, while I was out sick yesterday, a 10 foot diameter hole opened up in the floor at work. Unbelievable.
||>


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:05 AM
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If we're playing policy Mad Libs, can we do cap and trade with prayer, heretofore "spiritual emissions"? I'm pretty sure a few church complexes I've seen off the side of I-35 near Dallas could get me all of Manhattan as an area I don't have to pray in.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:44 AM
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23

s/b "hereafter"


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:45 AM
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24

21 -- Sounds like somebody should be praying a bit more.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:08 AM
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Or, maybe, praying less. It really depends on whether you're praying to God or to Satan.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:10 AM
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Jimmy Carter is wonderful.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:39 AM
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27

It's only because the Supremes are extremely hypocritical on this front that obvious violations like this and the insertion of "under God" into the Pledge have been allowed to stand. The logic of the jurisprudence is clear - it's just been ignored almost whenever it conflicts with "tradition".

There's a legitimate principle lurking in there somewhere sometimes, which is that whichever litigant is trying to pick a fight over religion should lose. Quasi-religious stuff is so thoroughly intertwined with the culture that it's an asshole move to, for example, file suit against the State of New York to get rid of the long-ignored Ten Commandments plaques that LB mentioned a while back. It's also an asshole move for fundies to run around slapping up Ten Commandments plaques where they don't already exist. But it's not easy to build a jurisprudence around "the biggest asshole loses".


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:57 AM
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28

24: I guess. The landlord came by, but he refused to cock it.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:59 AM
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28: You have to pray harder for cock.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:02 PM
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it's not easy to build a jurisprudence around "the biggest asshole loses"

Now there's a tort reform proposal I could get behind.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:02 PM
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I agree with 27.

The problem is that something like a national day of prayer is fine as long as it's a meaningless ecumenical empty gesture. As soon as it becomes aggressively targeted as a vehicle for the culture war, however, all of a sudden you have something that does look like an endorsement of a particular religion.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:05 PM
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That said, I'm not super sympathetic to the freedom from religion folks, either, who are glomming onto this issue in order to fight a fun culture war battle.

The best way to deal with the national day of prayer is to realize that it doesn't make a lick of difference to anyone about anything.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:07 PM
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I guess I'm concerned that Obama is busy praying to Jesus when really he needs to spend more time focusing on jobs. Jobs!

Also, he should have fixed that oil leak by now.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:10 PM
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34

Job? That's old testament claptrap.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:13 PM
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33: The National Day of Prayer is Obama's Terry Schiavo.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:13 PM
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To the roster of "--in Wisconsin", "...laydeez", and "--in bed" (advanced: "down there") we may now add "& Trading Company", to make any concept instantly steampunk.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:37 PM
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27 and 31 are pretty much right, although my sympathies go with the 'freedom from' side of the argument, even when they're being culture war assholes a bit.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:40 PM
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You just fucked with the wrong Mexican & Trading Company down there in Wisconsin … laydeez.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:49 PM
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16: Brilliant!

The evil socialist Obama is using the "National Day of Prayer" as a pretext for a government-sponsored takeover of religion! Tell your Tea Party friends! He must be stopped!


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:55 PM
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MY SUPERKORANIC DAY OF PRAYER WILL FINISH YOU ALL!


Posted by: Ayatollah Abu Obama | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:57 PM
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41

I hear they're gonna have Heaven Panels to decide who goes to heaven.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 12:59 PM
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42

Jeremiah Wright will be appointed Archbishop of Washington. Perks of the position include the use of a black helicopter.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:01 PM
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It's only because the Supremes are extremely hypocritical on this front that obvious violations like this and the insertion of "under God" into the Pledge have been allowed to stand.

Be the change you wish to see in the world: cross out "In God We Trust" on your money. (I do it on my dollars, except for very roughly 10 percent of my bills that get spent before I get to a desk with a marker.)

31
The problem is that something like a national day of prayer is fine as long as it's a meaningless ecumenical empty gesture. As soon as it becomes aggressively targeted as a vehicle for the culture war, however, all of a sudden you have something that does look like an endorsement of a particular religion.

Ah, but it's not an empty gesture; it's strongly anti-Deist. Discrimination! (Too bad Deism is basically a dead movement these days.)

More seriously, it doesn't have to be endorsement of a particular religion to be endorsement of religion in general. I'd say that right there is contrary to the spirit of the First Amendment, but I know the Supreme Court disagrees with me.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:12 PM
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43.1: New York State courtrooms mostly have a big sign saying "In God We Trust" (wet rust dingo). The other day I was in an unfamiliar courtroom that instead had "What is not reason is not law" (I think from Blackstone's Commentaries). Surprisingly pleasing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:18 PM
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I used to be a Christian but ever since Obama socialized religion, I'm outraged by Chappaquiddick the National Cathedral.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:28 PM
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44: Always bugs me.

More encouragingly, when I was on a grand jury, I asked the warden (after hearing people get sworn in so-help-them-god for weeks) if a person being sworn in could say "oh hey not so much with the god" and be given an alternate statement for swearing in, and he told me they could, that it's right there on the sheet.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:34 PM
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The word for the Godless swearing is 'affirming', if anyone else wants to ask for it when in a legal situation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:36 PM
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48

"God affirm it" just doesn't have the same ring somehow.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 1:55 PM
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Job? That's old testament claptrap.

Not to Howard Dean, it isn't.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:01 PM
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47 -- Not just for the godless.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:07 PM
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Right, like the Quakers aren't godless.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:08 PM
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There's a funny rule in the CPLR (NYS civil procedure rules) that in circumstances where a sworn affidavit would normally be required, Quakers, Orthodox Jews, and various professionals including dentists and chiropractors can affirm instead.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:10 PM
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not to tell the truth, ever

There's something flawed about this...


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:10 PM
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NO THERE ISN'T.


Posted by: OPINIONATED CRETAN | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 2:14 PM
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45: Ob National Cathedral trivia: It has a Darth Vader gargoyle way up high.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 3:28 PM
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42: Why it gotta be a BLACK helicopter?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 4:59 PM
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Fine, fine, give him the gay helicopter, then.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 5:23 PM
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It TWIRLZ!!!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 5:28 PM
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I have my doubts about the Wisconsin Idea.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:55 PM
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Dude. It's totally fucking in Wisconsin. What could go wrong?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 10:57 PM
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What happens in Wisconsin apparently happens everywhere else as well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:00 PM
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An aphorism for our time.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:10 PM
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They've been saying it forever, in the state whose capital is Madison.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:11 PM
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There has always been Wisconsin, you see.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:12 PM
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In Wisconsin? Well, there you go.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:12 PM
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Shit, you stepped on my joke in Wisconsin.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:13 PM
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Everywhere you step, part of your foot comes down in Wisconsin.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:15 PM
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Even tragic fires are more intense--in Wisconsin.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:20 PM
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They say that I won't last too long in
Wisconsin
I'll catch a Greyhound bus for home they say
But they're dead wrong, I know they are
'Cause I can play this here guitar
And I won't quit till I'm star
In Wisconsin


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:24 PM
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I'll take this thread all the way to Wisconsin if I have to. Or maybe this is a sign I should go to sleep.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 5-10 11:25 PM
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Be the change you wish to see in the world: cross out "In God We Trust" on your money.

It doesn't say "In God We Trust" on my money. It says "ELIZABETH II DG REG FD".


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 2:45 AM
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71: Mine says "Charles Darwin 1809-1882" with a rather nice picture of a finch.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 4:55 AM
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Illinois wears Wisconsin like a big, lopsided head.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 5:21 AM
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Also: "The division of labour in pin manufacturing (and the great increase in the quantity of work that results)"


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 6:07 AM
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True that. But the money quote, so to speak, is "London, for the Governor and Company of the Bank of England". That makes it money.

By the way, aren't the new obverse designs on the coinage silly?


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 6:22 AM
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74: ah, that's on the £20. Clearly Ginger is a man of means.

75: yes, they are indeed. Hideous.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 6:39 AM
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By the way, aren't the new obverse designs on the coinage silly

The heraldry stuff? I think it's great. If you lay out all your coins on the table it looks cool.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 6:44 AM
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I'm with G.Y., I quite like the new coins.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 7:14 AM
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75.2, 77: Except those would be the reverse sides. Betty is on the obverse


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 7:43 AM
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Are these the alleged offending/pleasing pieces of tender?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05- 6-10 10:01 AM
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