Re: Or maybe my black teachers were just really strict.

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It's not just you, or else there would not be an entire legion of (British) Black comedians making a career about telling how strict their mothers were, or imitating Nigerian parking inspectors. Class does have a lot to do with it, in that sort of "we're poor but respectable", lacecurtain Irish way where you're frightened to death to be thought of to be one of them.

On the clash between explicit rules and more hidden codes of behaviour, you know where you see a lot of that? Internal (local) party politics. On the one hand you have the people who know how to do all that veldt monkey stuff, know how to work around the rules to get things done and on the other hand you have the people who think that if only their resultion will be adopted by the congress they will finally get to set the party straight. The latter were very good at knowing the rules and how to use them, but never smart enough to actually be able to use them to get what they want, rather than just alienate people.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:22 PM
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So, British black comedians = blacks in America ( = Heebie's black teachers = black flight attendants)? Black is black is black?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:45 PM
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My first grade teacher was black and not particularly strict -- I remember her being really great in fact, having this presence that said "we are going to have fun and joke around and yet you will do everything that matters correctly." Fun in a way that makes you want to please and so are relatively good.

But I still have the general stereotype that Heebie has. I guess from other parents and authority figures and even the way black friends of mine respected minor rules.

I think it's a sign of my snobbishness or worse that my immediate reaction to that mindset is "that isn't effective." It sort of misses the point and puts the blame on the wrong shoulders.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:47 PM
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Black is black is black is black!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:47 PM
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This is not a stereotype that I share, at all, nor does it match up at all w/my experience of black teachers or coaches growing up -- authority figures pretty much had a range of strictness regardles of race. I guess I always thought in the background that the Asian parents were stricter with their own kids (not with me!), but that's about it. So I just would never have had that assumption about the flight attendants.

I do get the notion that relatively excluded people feel that they need to pay more attention to the rules than relatively privileged people, but I must say I find the OP deeply weird.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:59 PM
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Huh. I'm pretty sure I never had a black teacher. Like, ever, including undergrad and grad school. With the exception of a committee member, who is not from my department so I never had any classes with him.

The elementary/high part of that is because of Montana being Montana. The rest of it is a little more disconcerting to me.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 1:59 PM
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I had a black kindergarten teacher who I barely remember. I'm racking my brain trying to come up with other examples of black teachers, because I can't imagine that I didn't have any others, but I'm drawing a blank.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:11 PM
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I also never had a black teacher or prof, K->PhD. I'm not sure I can think of any black teachers at all in my K-12 public schools (in the Pacific NW), there were no black faculty in my major departments in college or grad school, and I've never had a black colleague in my department as a postdoc or faculty member. Amazing and appalling.


Posted by: astronomer | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:27 PM
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Kindergarten, Second, and Sixth grade teachers were black. Plus a bunch of single-subject teachers (Math, English, Religion) in junior and high school. Plus my little league and soccer coaches as a kid were black. And this is mostly in LA, which has about a 9% black population (somewhat higher when I was a kid).

I don't think I took a class with a black professor in college or in law school.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:31 PM
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There are statistics backing Heebie's stereotypes up. This page mentions the data on higher rates of corporal punishment in blacks. I bet there were related statistics in the TAL show.

Whenever I let my kids badger me into something I think "I'm not being a marshmallow. I'm being a role model for reasonability and compromise!"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:35 PM
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This is awful. I think I've managed to recall all the teachers I ever had, and after kindergarten the only other black example was a postdoc from Ethiopia who taught a class in grad school that I took/graded. He was the most lenient guy ever, but that doesn't have say anything about American culture.

I'm not even sure that any of the semi-regular substitute teachers at any school I went to were black. Wow. They eliminated segregation pretty well at the student level, but not for teachers, I guess.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:35 PM
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I've had several black disciplinarians, but they were in a different city, and cost just a little more by the hour.

More seriously, I think this post is about the perception among the ruling class that the subaltern is savage and cruel.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:36 PM
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My 4th grade teacher was black, and mega strict, but not in an oppressive way. Day to day mischief would get a mild rebuke. Outright rebellion or deliberate disruption of the class during a lesson would get you a nuclear warhead in the face. Or I'm guessing it would; no one actually attempted anything like that with her that I can remember. I don't imagine that the overprivileged kid wheedling stuff mentioned above would have gone down well, either.


Posted by: JH | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 2:41 PM
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I wonder what various black people think about this.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:16 PM
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I've never had a black teacher.

But I don't see the "lower class homes having more obedient children" either. Lots of little shits around here.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:20 PM
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(Sorry if that sounds unpleasant. I am very tired and grumpy as I can hear my nuisance neighbours starting up again. I often wonder what their parents were/are like.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:22 PM
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I wonder what various black people think about this.

Do we have a bat signal equivalent for DS?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:24 PM
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Jeez, Blume, I was trying for indirection.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:30 PM
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Couple black profs in college, but no black teachers. I don't remember the profs being disciplinarians, unless you mean one of them liking to go on about his love of Sade, and I don't mean the singer.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:33 PM
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Until an actual black person comes by to enlighten us on their mysterious ways, I can remember reading several years ago one of those NYT "how rich people be livin these days" columns, about the fraught relationship between rich, black Manhattanites and the black help they hire (or don't) around the house. If I remember correctly, black maids would often refuse point-blank to work in a black household for fear that the lady of the house would be a total hardass and make her life miserable.


Posted by: JH | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:35 PM
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You are all swipple, 14.


Posted by: VARIOUS OPINIONATED BLACK PEOPLE | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:40 PM
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I bet DS loves being called on for absolution.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:41 PM
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That's why nobody's calling him. He really doesn't need to see this shit. It's embarrassing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:44 PM
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Discussion of race in America is like fraught.

(I looked it up. "fraught with fraught" even works, kinda)


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:50 PM
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Nah, I bet he loves it. Oh, I just said that. He probably also loves being the token:

- canadian
- rivethead
- metalhead
- prize-winning poet
- gay man

all of which I at one point thought he was.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:56 PM
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You can't be the token gay man unless you are the only gay man around.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 3:59 PM
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I too thought he was gay for a while. I think. I forget. Maybe he is. Definitely a metalhead. I think. I'm unsure what a rivethead is, but you can't know that much about literary theory and be a rivethead (whatever it is), so I nix that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:00 PM
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I thought I was the token metalhead. Apparently, I've failed even to acheive that status. I'm going to cry myself to sleep with a Sepultura album.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:03 PM
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The two schools I went to in the US before moving to Europe were mostly white and all except one student white respectively. That girl, an eight year old, couldn't ride the bus because some of the kids had been egged on by their parents to harass her. Late seventies, UMC Boston suburb. The first one, in a generic middle class suburb, had a bunch of black students, but I believe they were all bussed in from Boston. My school in Geneva was majority white, but there was a large and diverse minority of non-white students. Diverse in terms of nationality that is; like the white students they spanned the full range of class from UMC to very wealthy.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:06 PM
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28: ttaM, too, I think.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:14 PM
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I was into metal as a teenager, yeah. I played in 'glam' (ish) style bands, but listened to everything from punk to thrash metal, to really cheesy poodle-haired glam stuff. I still like bits of metal and hard rock, but it's a tiny percentage of my music listening these days.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:16 PM
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I still like bits of metal and hard rock, but it's a tiny percentage of my music listening these days

That's basically true for me, too, but I picked this stupid pseud and am stuck with it.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:20 PM
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Anyway, I too had no black teachers, despite the fact that I grew up a military brat surrounded by a wide range of races and nationalities on base. Our next-door neighbors were from Ireland, across the street neighbors Filipino, best friend in 4th grade was black, which fact I barely registered -- but there were no black teachers.

I hypothesize that younger people here may have been more likely to have had black teachers.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:23 PM
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Didn't ttaM post a picture of himself once all glammed out? In makeup and big hair? Or did I make that up?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:34 PM
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I too thought he was gay for a while. I think. I forget. Maybe he is. Definitely a metalhead. I think. I'm unsure what a rivethead is, but you can't know that much about literary theory and be a rivethead (whatever it is), so I nix that.

He isn't gay, and I have no idea why you would think that no one could be a rivethead and know about literary theory when you don't know what a rivethead is.

For the record: rivethead : industrial music :: metalhead : heavy metal music.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:49 PM
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Rivethead confused me as well since in my neck of the woods it was more liable to be used as in the title of this book.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:56 PM
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I have no idea why you would think that no one could be a rivethead and know about literary theory when you don't know what a rivethead is.

Because I was fooling around.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:57 PM
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I'm pretty sure the ultimate shame, in this forum, would be to be a Parrothead.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:57 PM
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Or maybe a Dittohead.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 4:57 PM
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Hey everybody, I just saw a double rainbow! From my front porch! I yelled to all the neighbors to come look, and most of them came.

It's funny; I was just sitting here in the rocking chair editing, and I thought "Huh, the light's changing....almost like rainbow weather...OH WOW." It materialized just as I was looking at the sky, and then the second one showed up. So amazing.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:01 PM
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Some of the kids I tutor are black, from working-class immigrant families, mostly Caribbean. The mothers are seriously involved and invested in getting their kids a leg up; if the dads are in the picture, I never saw them or talked to them. In some instances---especially for the boys---the obedience these kids have learned is actually a real problem. I have to prod and poke them to respond with enthusiasm rather than diligence, to take a chance in a paragraph rather than line up a perfect topic sentence and transition, to admit some interest or curiosity rather than just sit there stoically. Still, I know that the parents have fought like hell for these kids. My black seventeen year old boy with the memory of a goldfish grew up in Central Brooklyn: there were a lot of worse possible futures available for him, I'm sure.

Count me as another who grew up without having a single black teacher.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:02 PM
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Do goldfish have good or bad memories?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:06 PM
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You could be a fan of Camille Paglia. That would be pretty bad.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:09 PM
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I seem to recall reading lately that the six-second memory thing was a myth, but goldfish don't have much in the way of brain function anyhow.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:10 PM
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WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BOWL? PERHAPS I WILL SWIM OVER THERE.

WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BOWL? PERHAPS I WILL SWIM OVER THERE.

WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BOWL? PERHAPS I WILL SWIM OVER THERE.

WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BOWL? PERHAPS I WILL SWIM OVER THERE.

I AM HUNGRY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GOLDFISH | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:12 PM
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This kid, I swear. I'll spend two hours going over really, really basic Constitutional history, assign him review homework, and then the next week I'll be like "the 3/5ths Compromise, remember?" and he'll be all "Um, excuse me, Miss?* Would you mind going over that again?" It's enough to make me crazy because he is NOT stupid. He's very clever at answering multiple choice questions he knows nothing about, for example; it's fairly obvious that he's gotten along for years with being passive, obedient, polite, and vague.

*He cannot seem to retain my name so calls me "Miss." This next week will make eight or nine times we've had a lesson.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:15 PM
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40 - Did you make a video for YouTube?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:16 PM
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He cannot seem to retain my name so calls me "Miss."

Maybe he's just POLITE. Geez.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:16 PM
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I strongly suspect that some of the teenagers I work with call me "Miss" because they have so deeply internalized the idea that calling an adult, and especially an adult in a teaching role, by anything other than an honorific is grounds for instant and severe punishment.

A lot of American-born kids, mostly black but not all of them, call me "Miss [Witt's First Name]," but many of the foreign-born kids just default to "Miss." And some of them do just have problems with cross-ethnic identification. They genuinely don't dintinguish between a tall white woman with long brown hair, and a medium-height white woman with shoulder-length blonde hair.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:23 PM
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s/b distinguish


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:25 PM
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Miss [Witt's First Name]

See, this I would totally understand, but "uh, Miss, uh..." when I've told him a number of times to call me [Jackmormon] and he has my full name written on the inside flap of his lesson book and with the rest of his memory problems, well it can get a little frustrating. It's really the least of my concerns, though. The kid MUST pass his Regent's exam this go-round.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:31 PM
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51: Aayyyy, poor kid. And poor you. That sounds really stressful (and somewhat puzzling).

On occasion I think memory issues are a result of the majority of the brain's capacity being endlessly preoccupied with some overriding anxiety -- a parent's death, a sibling's illness, some kind of trauma that isn't being attended to.

But that doesn't sound like this situation. My sympathies.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:41 PM
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I can't figure it out, frankly. It's a two-parent home, and his mother seems engaged. He's got okay grades. I haven't ever gotten him to admit to something---anything---that he genuinely LIKES TO DO. If he were into, I dunno, Dungeons and Dragons, I would be able to make all of US History about wizards and elves. (Labor relations? the dwarves take on Valhalla!) Soccer, pokemon, hell, even video games. But he won't admit to doing anything for fun. Ah, well, at the end of the day it'll be his test: I will have tried.

Anyway, he's a very polite young man, and I'm sure that he's no trouble to his teachers, no trouble at all.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:48 PM
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I'll look out for some overwhelming anxiety, though. That's a good suggestion.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:49 PM
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My sister is a teacher and has always spoken of being addressed as Miss [First Name]. Hits my ear funny. I was in my 20s, I think, before I could be persuaded to address my parents' friends, who I had known a long time and liked, as anything other than Mr./Ms. [Last Name.] (Of course this was in the south where many of my friends addressed their parents as ma'am and sir, which still makes me shudder. Formality is one thing...)

I had a few black teachers. I don't remember them as more or less strict than the others.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:57 PM
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i have not heard of this stereotype, though i am familiar with black people being the (mostly) only people i meet who use 'sir' or 'ma''am' as of course; i think i stick this into my 'bad southern influence' dixie-hating rather than a traditional racial stereotype


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 5:58 PM
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i had never any black teachers, but a few black bosses. i don't think of them as strict. the bosses like that were (white) tracy flick types


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:01 PM
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51: The kid MUST pass his Regent's exam this go-round.

Maybe he's cutting down his life for spite.
Has he stolen any cartons of basketballs lately?


Posted by: Ace-K | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:04 PM
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It's not a form of address, but I've never been able to get used to the German habit of talking about people as 'the [first name]'. It just sounds bizarre and awkward to me.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:05 PM
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So, speaking of US history: is there some new right-wing/GlennBeckian meme about how Canada is properly part of the US? My parents tell me they spoke to my wingnut grandmother today and Canada came up in conversation and she went on some rant about how if not for Benedict Arnold that would be American land. I wonder if this was sui generis or if it's part of the latest propaganda, since she mostly just repeats what the TV talking heads say.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:29 PM
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some rant about how if not for Benedict Arnold that would be American land

It's not totally wrong. America has sporadically tried to lay claim to bits if not the whole of Canada forever. Canadians are generally a bit touchy about it, especially as they're the ones who remember the historical record. I don't remember where I saw it but there's a whole set of 19th-c cartoons of a diabolical Uncle Sam knocking on the front door of an honest Canadian cabin.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:40 PM
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Grammar Nazis Masters

Oh yes, I notice now that noen called her 'him'. Well, yes: she is a she. ...JH at CT on Tove Jansson.

Problem:"She" is, like, dead. Is this my problem, because I am so very wrong?

Tove Jansson was female? "Is" female?
She is the author of the book? Not "she was", as if authorship changed
Tove Jansson lives off the coast of Finland? No, lived.

Is there a simple rule for this?

Insert or delete use/meaning quotes as needed


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:41 PM
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Why or how it might have popped up as a right-wing meme I don't know. Canadians getting a bit cranky about their part in the war in Afghanistan, probably.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:42 PM
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Fuck s/b use/mention

Off to TB & MM


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:47 PM
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Blacks and whites are different. So are blacks and blacks.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 6:56 PM
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Huh. I don't think I've *ever* had a black teacher. Not in elementary school, middle school, high school, college, law school and grad school. That is really, truly disconcerting.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 7:28 PM
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66: Have you considered taking adult education classes in something taught by a black person?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 7:33 PM
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Thought I would guess that would involve a very strange conversation with somebody in registration.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 7:35 PM
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I can't even count the number of black teachers I've had. I went to very integrated schools elementary school up through HS. Had a couple of black teachers in undergrad and grad school too, although fewer black classmates there.

After a certain amount of something it gets hard to generalize. Although I definitely remember generalizing about the difference between black and white cultures from a very early age, in my hometown schools the black kids were from the projects and a lot of my white friends were academics' kids. As I understand it a lot of the academic kids in my hometown now go to private schools instead of the public school I went to.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 7:47 PM
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Our fifth grade teacher was the only black teacher on the faculty, and she cultivated a reputation for being the strictest teacher in the school. She scared the shit out of us.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 8:11 PM
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I... really wish unfogged was a little more diverse. This thread is... weird?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:04 PM
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With white teachers, on a multiple choice test if you don't know the answer you should pick 'B'. With black teachers, pick 'C'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:06 PM
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71: But black people love us!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:16 PM
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73: from afar, no doubt. Gah! We should start talking about trends in sci-fi.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:18 PM
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Lando?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:20 PM
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I was talking to a black cab driver the other day and he said....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:27 PM
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Nothing in my life matches the OP; it's been a lot more like the comment thread. I'm probably forgetting someone, but right now I remember one black prof in undergrad, and one in law school. Neither was "strict" in any way one might use that word. Both were impressive men, though, which made a huge difference in the classroom atmosphere. The undergrad prof (meteorology) had done important work in the tropics, and the law prof (criminal law) had, as a young man, worked with MLK. Back when other men were carrying barrel staves as some sort or pre-GlennBeckian torch.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:29 PM
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71: I agree, but first let me share this anecdote: My homeroom teacher in 7th grade was African-American. She was pretty serious, but not really uptight or anything. But her husband was the head of the division of the federal agency where my father worked. That was kinda weird.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:31 PM
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71:I... really wish unfogged was a little more diverse.

I'm here for you, tweety


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:35 PM
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71: There's always apo.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:44 PM
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And mcmanus, apparently.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:46 PM
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How about we just all call each other racist and call it a day.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:47 PM
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Are we qualified?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:49 PM
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Anti-elitist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:50 PM
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Wait. I wanted to accuse you of elitism for assuming we had to be qualified.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:52 PM
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occasionally visiting black person here, I'll help y'all out.

As I grew up: Never heard this rep for black teachers or black bosses, but for sure, black parents generally considered stricter than white parents. Mostly it's about respect, not obedience---you don't talk back, you don't sass, you don't call adults by their first name, etc. (And you watch wide-eyed when white kids pull all that shit, in public no less)

I've seen it in Caribbean and US Black families---my guess would be that even if black is not black is not black (and sometimes it is), racism is still racism, and when people are racist, you don't shame your family in public or private.

I would think Heebie-Geebie would be more likely to pick up that impression hanging out in black kids' homes than from black teachers, but I only ever had one black teacher coming up in California, so...


Posted by: daiyami | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 9:52 PM
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On reflection, all of the black teachers I've had were strikingly handsome men (one in high school, couple law school profs). Given what they looked like, and the fact that they never kept me after for spankings, I'm going to have to go with not nearly strict enough.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 11:48 PM
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Korean teachers were the strict ones.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 11:48 PM
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2: yes, you could read it that way if you want to, you racist.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 1-10 11:50 PM
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Years ago we (a school in London) hosted an exchange with some students from North Carolina.

The local church threw a party for them in the crypt.

Suddenly one the students came running out shouting "Hey, you'll never guess who's buried here - Benedict Arnold!"

It was true - he's buried in St Mary's Church, Battersea, London

The English kids looked non-plussed (they'd never heard of him!) but the Americans couldn't get over the co-incidence!


Posted by: Gerald Simmonds | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:20 AM
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America has sporadically tried to lay claim to bits if not the whole of Canada forever.

Wasn't this what the war of 1812 was about, basically?

I was reading somewhere else recently that many of the founders felt that the US ought to encompass all the Anglo settlements in North America (dunno why - tidiness?), but AFAIK nobody north of what is now Maine showed much enthusiasm for the Continental Congress or the grand statements of Lockeian principle that were coming out of New England and Virginia, let alone the war, so why they more southerly colonists thought they should have a right to coerce them beats me.

There seems to be a general tendency (England, France, Russia, China...) for successful revolutions to devolve into wars of expansion. The American was the second most unrevolutionary revolution I can think of in history, so maybe it's not surprising that they were a bit half hearted about the expansionism too.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:33 AM
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What was the first? William and Mary?


Posted by: mealworm | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:41 AM
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Certainly. Replacing the king with his daughter and his first cousin and changing some but not all of the personnel of government while making no claim to constitutional change is the sort of revolution a thoughtful Tory could get behind. And many did.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:54 AM
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The American was the second most unrevolutionary revolution I can think of in history, so maybe it's not surprising that they were a bit half hearted about the expansionism too.

True, American history is very short of expansion.
They really ran out of steam once they'd got Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma,Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Puerto Rico, the Philippine Islands, the Marianas and Samoa. And they didn't even get all of Samoa.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:12 AM
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94. You know perfectly well that that's an entirely different issue to their proclivity for invading Canada at the beginning of the 19th century.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:24 AM
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Funny, I know the 'black authority figures are strict' stereotype that Heebie's talking about, but it never seemed to have much application to black teachers I had (high school, law school. None in elementary school or undergrad that I can recall) or parents of friends. Although one of Newt's friends in the neighborhood is an interracial kid whose dad's black, and while a lovely guy, he's the kind of hardass with the kid that I associate with this stereotype. (That is, on a white guy I'd think of the contrast between his generally relaxed demeanor and the hardline tone he takes with kids as peculiar, but it doesn't seem all that weird coming from a black guy.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:31 AM
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Strict in the sense of making us keep the baby in our lap, facing forward, during take-off and landing

I'm somewhat confused by this. What else would you do with the baby during take-off and landing?


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:45 AM
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I don't remember where I saw it but there's a whole set of 19th-c cartoons of a diabolical Uncle Sam knocking on the front door of an honest Canadian cabin.

Or a lecherous Uncle Sam (sometimes Brother Jonathan) trying to make an assault on the virtue of a fair maiden known as Canada. But Mother Britain is a careful chaperone!


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:56 AM
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It never occurred to me to think of the US as Canada's creepy uncle.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:30 AM
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From my blinkered perspective, I had only thought of Canada as America's delicate flower of a niece.
C'mere, you, and give us a hug.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:40 AM
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Not unless you close the bathrobe.


Posted by: Opinionated Canada | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:49 AM
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I don't remember where I saw it but there's a whole set of 19th-c cartoons of a diabolical Uncle Sam knocking on the front door of an honest Canadian cabin.

Not Uncle Sam, Brother Jonathan!

I have also had no black teachers, except the 7-foot-tall guy from, I believe, Senegal, who taught French at my prep school.

Also I have only met one African-American in the world of academic scientists (several people who are immigrants from African countries, though).


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:57 AM
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OT:

Apparently, this is now such standard behavior that you can just mention it in the paper. (Read down to the paragraph with "pistol".)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:01 AM
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103: Ah, but who among us has not waved a gun at other drivers while stuck in traffic? Especially when those other drivers are being rude.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:12 AM
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103: "It's unbelievable. Drivers here are very rude, too. Very rude," said Ferrell, who added that during the detour, she brandished a pistol at other drivers who attempted to cut in front of her.

I thought that was worth quoting.

I just wonder if she didn't actually mean that literally.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:16 AM
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I know everybody around this area has a gun. I have a gun. But I've never seen one pulled in traffic and cannot imaging doing so without fearing arrest.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:20 AM
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I also don't carry a gun on my person or in my car, but the law here makes that fairly easy for someone who lives in the state and has no criminal record or history of severe mental illness. Somebody from West Virginia, such as the brandisher in the story, may not have been so legal on that count either.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:24 AM
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This "black authority figures are strict" thing doesn't seem like a live stereotype to me, but I wouldn't know. Vermont is the whitest state in the country. I'm pretty sure the first black teacher I ever had was an English literature teacher my sophomore year who taught a class focused on science fiction, and he wasn't particularly strict.

I imagine the stereotype is only helped by the "blackboard jungle" genre of movies. If the protagonist teacher isn't black, then his/her jaded disillusioned principal and/or another teacher is.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:32 AM
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105: Presumably she the intended meaning was "really hot girl with a hot body" (from urbandictionary). So trying to cause mayhem, but in an entirely less hostile manner.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:38 AM
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Wait, y'all do know that the Quebec Act was one of the grievances in the Declaration, right? And that a US force did invade Canada in 1775 -- and that Arnold led the flanking column on an epic trip through the wilds of Maine?

I don't see how anyone can blame Arnold for the failure to take Quebec, though, as he was one of the more energetic commanders at the siege. Ethan Allen almost took Montreal but then stupidly let himself get captured. Don't buy his furniture!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:38 AM
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I sort of want to send this to my partner but then I fear she'd read my comments. Hmm. I'm not really sure what to say about this, either.

Her students (community college, disproportionately black) often call her Miss FirstName, which she hates. I hate it that the church kids I tutor call me Miss Thorn, because it seems even worse when there's a racial divide and so at least with the older kids I push for just Thorn. The worst is a student of hers who at least once called her Miss Lady Teacher. He's fairly high up in one of the campus black leadership organizations. I don't get it.

To Martin's point, also touched on by Jackmormon and maybe Witt, it's been my experience that there's a lot of friction in terms of stereotypes and identity between recent-ish immigrant blacks especially from the Caribbean and straight-up AA black families. The physical discipline thing is a big issue and there's a lot of talk about how the problem with white people is the won't spank their kids. But, um, I feel kind of weird and inadequate talking about this because it's so complex. I think I'll email my partner the OP with some annotations and see if she has any Authentic Black Insight I can share with the class.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:40 AM
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I blame S. Epatha Merkerson, Yaphet Kotto, and to a lesser extent Lynne Thigpen.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:41 AM
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I don't see how anyone can blame Arnold for the failure to take Quebec,

Well, I certainly don't!


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:44 AM
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I don't see how anyone can blame Arnold for the failure to take Quebec

Can I blame him for trying, then?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:49 AM
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Everybody who is anybody has at least tried to invade Canada.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:50 AM
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Benedict Arnold couldn't take Quebec because he didn't want it enough.


Posted by: Opinionated General Wolfe | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:03 AM
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Can I blame him for trying, then?
Hardly. Have you seen how Quebec has been dressing, lately?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:17 AM
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'm somewhat confused by this. What else would you do with the baby during take-off and landing?

Let her squirm all over the place. Stand up in my lap and look at the people behind us. Crawl over to Jammies' lap. Let her on the ground between my feet. She's allowed to do all these things during the flight itself.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:35 AM
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118: Dude, no. The spirit of a thousand outraged flight attendants points out that a bumpy landing sufficient to send your baby hurtling through space like a projectile isn't a wildly unlikely possibility. Firm grip on that baby during takeoff and landing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:38 AM
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119: You can call me paranoid (because I was when ours was little), but I agree with LB on this.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:40 AM
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I am certainly am familiar with this stereotype, and I hear it expressed from both sides (e.g., black adults expressing horror at white kids doing things in front of their parents that they would have been scolded/belted for as children, etc.). Half the humor in "Weeds" seems built around this.

In my multi-ethnic Catholic upbringing (mixed Haitian/Cuban/Filipino/Irish/Italian parochial schools in South Florida), the dividing line for strictness was less race than which tropes of Catholicism you built your aura of authority around. If you were a big fan of the Virgin and the intercession of the Saints, then you were much less obsessed with procedure and punishment, but more inclined to building up a feeling of unworthiness and silent guilt in your charges anytime they strayed from meek, goody-goody, authority-conforming behavior.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:43 AM
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Probably not all that important to grip the baby during takeoff. If you are in a bumpy takeoff, it means you are all going to die anyways.

During landings its probably a good idea to old on to the baby, but only at the time of actual touch down. Holding on to the kid from the entire, "Seat tables up" message until the time the plane arrives at the gate is unnecessary, and could lead to the type of crying baby that everyone hates on an airplane.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:18 AM
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119, 120: God, you're being so black.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:18 AM
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If you are in a bumpy takeoff, it means you are all going to die anyways.

No. Takeoff, something goes wrong, quick circle to a hard landing is a normal non-catastrophic sequence of events, and one where you'd want to be holding the baby.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:32 AM
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123: Sorry, just channeling my mother.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:35 AM
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Aren't all flight attendants strict? My stereotype of a flight attendant in the US is an (understandably) embittered 48 year old woman who has been through 15 rounds of layoffs, 10 strikes, and 25 years of low-level sexual harrassment, depressing airport hotels, and shitty treatment by angry customers in tiny seats. Frankly, I'm mildly surprised that they aren't punching more people in the face, regardless of what race they are.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:36 AM
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It was worse ten years ago, when the ones in my mother's generation, who remembered when they were glamorous and pampered, were still around. Being a flight attendant in the 60s and 70s was apparently great, and then the 80s hit and everything sucked forever.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:41 AM
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Huh. My stereotype of a flight attendant also involves women in their 30s who like to flirt with businessmen, and gay men in their 30s who like to flirt with businessmen.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:43 AM
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Heh. My friend helped start Virgin America, then left for Air Jazeera. At his going-away party, there were two distinct levels of hotness. Regular Bay Area hotness, for the folks who worked in the office with him. Then smokin' hot ethnic types, whom he had hired as flight attendants. Looked like freakin' Benetton. I commended my friend on his tastes, but he didn't let me keep any of them.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:45 AM
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I'm somewhat confused by this. What else would you do with the baby during take-off and landing?

I'm with the 'hold onto the baby' faction on this, but why does it matter which way she's facing?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:49 AM
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America has sporadically tried to lay claim to bits if not the whole of Canada forever.

I am reading "the battle cry of freedom" and I just got to the part where some of the anti-slavery guys were pissed that Polk went to war with Mexico and settled with Canada rather than the other way around.


Posted by: Lemmy Caution | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:51 AM
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127: Exactly, which is why I fly Southwest whenever I can.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:52 AM
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OT: Is this a bad time to ask whether anyone knows the preferred procedure for getting rid of a snake in your house?

I got home from doing errands a bit ago in time to see the last 8 inches or so of a black snake disappearing under the door of the hallway closet. I froze, of course, fascinated and thinking: grab the tail and drag it out? (No!) Um. Whip the door open and invert a large bowl over the snake, trapping it, so that, well, uh. I guess not. Huh.

So I've stuffed a towel under the door of the closet and there is a snake in the closet now. I've phoned my housemate to inform him of this, and I can't particularly think of what else I might do.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:54 AM
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133: You should just assume your housemate bought the snake to get rid of a mouse. You need to buy a mongoose.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:58 AM
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I suggest being very polite, and no back-talk!


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:59 AM
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Hah! I do know, sortof! When I was visiting my monk friend in the mountains of San Diego, a rattlesnake came out into the garden. Everyone gathered and squealed, but the monks had a long tube prepared for just such an event. One open end, one sealed end. They lay the tube on the ground next to the snake, where it could see the open end. It was grateful for a place to hide from all the people and exposure, and went into it straightaway, dangerous part of the snake first. They picked up the tube, capped it, and would release the snake a bit farther away.

You need a tube, a shy snake, and a crowd of gawking people. Then, Bob's yer uncle.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 10:59 AM
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Clever monk-ies!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:00 AM
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I would just burn the house down, but I'm pretty scared of snakes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:01 AM
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You need a tube, a shy snake, and a crowd of gawking people.

Somebody rang?


Posted by: Signmund Freud | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:01 AM
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Sorry. So excited by tubes and snakes that I forgot how to spell my own name.


Posted by: Sigmund Freud | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:02 AM
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Go to your business directory and look under Snake Charmers.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:02 AM
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We have mongooses but no snakes. And the flight attendants on the airline I fly most often are usually very pleasant, but 126 is my experience of the US majors also (especially UAL).


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:02 AM
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The towel is, at best, a temporary solution. Distract the snake with Amontillado while you get a caulking gun.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:03 AM
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Wait a day. Cautiously open the closet door and realize the snake is gone. Try to forget about the whole thing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:04 AM
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You could probably surround the closet with glue traps, but that would probably require a willingness to stomp on the head of the snake at some point.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:04 AM
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There is this guy in my neighborhood with a large reptile-arium (herparium? Herpes-arium? who knows) in his home with a ton of snakes. One time, apparently, a python got out and emerged, looking hungry, in a small kid's bedroom across the street. If the snake had gotten into my house, I'm pretty sure I would have purchased a gun and started taking some classes at the firing range to prepare for a little old school vigilantism. OK, not really, but I would have been pretty mad.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:05 AM
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You're a little finicky, Halford. You know that, right?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:10 AM
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144: That's my inclination, but you know, that means that at any time, in any place in the house, I might suddenly, like, step on the snake and freak out completely. Three days from now or something. In the bathroom at 3 a.m. No good.

I actually didn't freak, to my surprise. I just tried to think what to do and couldn't come up with anything. Actually grabbing it and rushing outside while holding a thrashing 2-foot-long thing seems out of the question, however.

A towel! How about whipping the door open with a huge towel in hand and scooping it up fumbling and stumbling for the door? I suspect it's going to be something like that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:10 AM
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I just like my wild animals in wild places. Domestic animals in domestic places. No stinging bees in my face, no snakes in my kid's bedroom. Is that too much to ask from civilization? Perhaps so.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:12 AM
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Or, find any close by nine-year-old, and tell him or her you have a snake in your closet. I would have been more than delighted to go get it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:13 AM
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Excepting zoo snakes and rattlesnakes, I have tried to kill every snake I have seen when I was holding anything that could be used as a weapon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:14 AM
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Why, Moby? That sucks.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:15 AM
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152: That's what you are supposed to do. It's like rats. I didn't go looking for them, the way I would have for a rat if I saw a dropping, but when I saw a snake while gardening or working, I've got the shovel right there. They often got away, so I was helping them evolve toward snakes that are better at staying away from me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:20 AM
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Would you still try to kill a snake if you saw it close by? You're killing creatures that have no way to hurt you.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:22 AM
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Anyway, a quick slice with a shovel is certainly more humane than giving it to a nine year old.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:23 AM
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What? Garden snakes do not carry disease and kill rodents that do.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:23 AM
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154: In my own yard, yes. On a trip to a park or something, probably not.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:24 AM
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But why? Would you kill a lizard in your yard? Or a skink?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:24 AM
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Dude, move. My nine year old is kind to animals, so are his friends, at least most of them.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:25 AM
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158: We don't have those.

159: Yes, we were very kind to animals. And we still managed to kill every wild animal we caught and kept.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:28 AM
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You need a tube, a shy snake, and a crowd of gawking people. Then, Bob's yer uncle.

Bobs and Mary Sues have feelings too, ya know, and may not like being used as idioms. Or whatevers.

I have seen like three worrisome snakes in thirty years here in Dallas. When gardening, tiny baby garters may get turned up. I know nothing.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:30 AM
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The poor gopher got eaten by the neighbors cat, so at least the circle of life thing was happening with that one. The frogs had it worse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:31 AM
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I currently room with a professional herpetologist. I'll see if I can get in touch with her, but it might not be before the evening.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:31 AM
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But you haven't explained why you go out of your way to kill something harmless.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:31 AM
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Puh. You guys aren't helping. I have no wish to kill it. It's just a garden snake, I'm sure. I just want to put it outside where it belongs. It didn't even occur to me to try to hurt it in order to get rid of it. Sheesh.

On preview: yay, minivet may be able to help! I guess I could google. The drag of all this is that there's a bunch of stuff on the floor of that closet, and I'm sure the snake is curled up in a far corner behind a mop head and a bunch of other crap, so some kind of manhandling is going to be required, I think. Drag.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:34 AM
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I checked; Pittsburg does have salamanders. Would you slice a salamander in half if you saw it in your yard?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:35 AM
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133: Definitely don't pick a snake up by the tail; that makes it easiest for them to twist around and bite you. The bowl thing seems unlikely to work. It's not going to sit still, so you'll wind up pinching the snake under the edge of the bowl with its head thrashing loose if you're gentle and cutting it in half with a very blunt instrument all over your rug if not. Or crushing its midsection, dooming it to a slow and painful death but not actually killing it for several minutes so you'll have to finish the job some other way anyway.

Anyways, do you know anything about snakes? Did you see enough of this one to recognize the species? Nonvenomous snakes are almost completely harmless to humans. I was bit by one when I was eight or 10 or so. Saw it in the backyard, picked it up too far down its body, it bit me, I dropped it and called my dad. I think he took me to the hospital, but there was no need for any medication other than disinfectant on the bite marks.

Even if it is venomous, they aren't generally aggressive. Depending on the layout if the place you might even be able to herd it outside.

Best advice, I guess, is just call your local animal control whatever. They'll know the chances of it being venomous and how best to get rid of it.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:35 AM
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164: Because not all snakes are harmless and my thinking-brain can't tell which is the harmless kind before my reacting-brain sends my heart into overdrive. I've never been bitten, but the number of times I've been startled while pulling weeds or something is quite high.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:35 AM
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Easy enough to hypnotize 'em, Moby.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:36 AM
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I checked; Pittsburg does have salamanders.

We also have a terminal 'h' that we had to fight with the feds to keep. Anyway, I probably wouldn't kill a salamander.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:37 AM
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132 - They don't wear hot pants any more.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:42 AM
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Looked it up. Pennsylvania has only three species of venomous snake. Two are rattlesnakes (one endangered, so I don't think you'll be lucky enough to see it) and for some reason rattlesnakes are exempted from your snake-killing habits (per 151). That leaves copperheads.

The three venomous species of snakes in Pennsylvania are the northern copperhead, eastern massasauga rattlesnake, and timber rattlesnake. Reports of venomous snakebites in Pennsylvania are rare. Bites usually occur while a person is trying to catch or carelessly handle one of these snakes. All of these species are usually non-aggressive and prefer to avoid confrontation. Thus, they often quietly move away from an approaching human or remain completely still and allow what they perceive as a threat to pass by.

There are 18 species of non-venomous snakes in Pennsylvania. If you are killing snakes on reflex, for startling you, the odds are that you are killing something harmless. Can your reacting-brain be retrained to realize that you aren't actually in any danger?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:44 AM
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168: Weak. In the unlikely event that it's venomous and about to bite, you're almost certainly better stepping away from it.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:44 AM
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You're in no more danger from a garden snake than you are from a salamander.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:45 AM
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Anyways, do you know anything about snakes? Did you see enough of this one to recognize the species?

Nope. I'll google. The thickest portion of midsection I saw disappearing under the door was about 1/2-inch in diameter, so I'm extrapolating to 1.5 to 2 feet in length (a little bigger than I'd expect in a garden snake, but I'm really not sure).

I'd really rather just wrap it up in a huge towel and toss it outside rather than getting animal control into it. Thanks, though, it's a thought.

Do you know how hard it is not to open the closet door to get a look at it? It would probably just sit there being equally bummed out about the situation.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:46 AM
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The cool herp folk have sticks with loops on the end, and can snag snakes and lizards with great accuracy and ease. But even if you could fashion a sick with a loop, you haven't had much time to practice with it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:49 AM
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As said above it probably has burrowed down somewhere and is unlikely to move. I'd probably try to get it wearing some heavy gloves, but I'm probably a little reckless.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:50 AM
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Also, a pillow case is a better idea than a towel.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:51 AM
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The cool herp folk


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:55 AM
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and for some reason rattlesnakes are exempted from your snake-killing habits (per 151)

Because they rattle so I don't go near them by accident. If all snakes did that, I'd be fine with them.

I know I am unlikely to be bitten.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:56 AM
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Snakes are cold blooded and thus quite docile at low temperatures. How good is your air conditioning?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:57 AM
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Fun fact: As people have gotten aggressive about killing rattlesnakes they have become less likely to make noise as you approach.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 11:59 AM
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Ah! Good. Heavy gloves, long sleeves and a pillow case it is. Of course. I'm not thinking well about this. Sad to say that I've more or less immediately jumped to wanting my housemate -- he's very tall! strong! -- to handle the execution, while I provide back up in the form of gathering ideas and prepping.

Googling tells me that there are only two venomous snakes in Maryland, both pit vipers, and there's no way this was anything like that. 1/2-inch in diameter, jet black. Just a little thing (kind of longer than a dinky little guy, though).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:02 PM
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If you know you're unlikely to be bitten, then you're killing harmless animals to prevent a (very)low risk of danger. Why is that acceptable to you? Habit? Because you haven't thought about it for a while?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:04 PM
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184: No need to extend empathy beyond mammals.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:11 PM
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To mostly repeat 167: First, determine snake is non-venomous, then grab the snake just behind its head and carry outside. If gloves and long sleeves lend you confidence, by all means, go ahead and wear them. If you aren't sure it's non-poisonous, animal control.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:13 PM
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I should probably mention that I've never tried to move a wild snake. Also, I've seen some damn big rat snakes. I remember one going after a ground squirrel nest under a porch with three feet of tail visible.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:14 PM
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Apologies in advance if this suggestion was made above and I missed it, but does your city have a general information number (in NYC, 311) where you can check to see if perhaps they have people to deal with such things for you. For free. Not a sure bet, but not impossible and a phone call costs nothing.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:14 PM
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He already has some empathy for salamanders. He's ready for the next step in his enlightenment. Think of monks, lovingly moving rattlesnakes!


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:16 PM
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I'm quite certain the snake is non-venomous: as I said, not a pit viper.

My housemate took it in stride on the phone earlier, and I think we can handle it (with the gloves, long sleeves, pillow case); I'm not sure jumping the gun by calling in professionals is called for, but it's on the back burner if necessary, and thanks for pointing it out.

Hopefully we can avoid involuntary shrieking. I mean, my housemate can; I might not be able to. There might be a bit of swearing, can't say.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:22 PM
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The Maryland "Nuisance Animal Hotline" is 1-877-463-6497, and is suggested by the Maryland Department of Natural Resources as the people to call if you've got a snake that you don't know how to manage appropriately.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:25 PM
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The most important element in this kind of operation is live-blogging. You will also want video.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:26 PM
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188, 191: No DIY spirit? No sense of adventure?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:27 PM
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I don't think Pittsburgh has any gophers.

Huh. My stereotype of a flight attendant also involves women in their 30s who like to flirt with businessmen, and gay men in their 30s who like to flirt with businessmen.

Are you a businessman?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:28 PM
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Aren't snakes supposed to like milk? You could put out a saucer of milk for it.

Although I think my only source for that is The Adventure of the Speckled Band, so it may not apply to non-cobras.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:28 PM
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I think relying on Arthur Conan Doyle for scientific knowledge is not a good idea. Much better to ask a bunch of imaginary internet people!


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:32 PM
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Also I would expect any flight attendant to insist on having the baby in your lap on takeoffs and landings, and maybe at all times.

I saw a bus driver once seem like he was having a heart attack when he noticed that a woman had a stroller with a baby in it in the aisle, which had been there for about 20 minutes. He started shouting about how he never would have moved the bus an inch if he knew the baby was just sitting there ready to fly out of the stroller if he had to slam on the brakes.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:32 PM
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It would be interesting to try one of these instruments.

http://www.worldmusicalinstruments.com/c-24-snake-charmer.aspx

But I suppose you wouldn't want to wait for it to come in the mail, and then you might need a few lessons to learn how to play it.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:33 PM
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No DIY spirit? No sense of adventure?

In this context, not really, no.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:34 PM
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189: That sounds like more trouble that it is worth. There really aren't many snakes around Pittsburgh. My habits come from the days on the plains. My current yard, what with the shade, gives me more problems with slugs than snakes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:34 PM
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My roommate got back to me: put a towel over it, and with its head covered, grab it behind the head. That way, she emphasized, it will be unable to bite, not that it would be dangerous if it did.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:36 PM
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199: Not even vicariously?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:38 PM
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200: Moby had trouble with snakes on a plain?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:40 PM
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Snakes have fun viviparously.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:41 PM
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201: Cool. Sounds like a good combination of controlling any thrashing, protecting from possible bites (even though not venomous), and a kind of leaping on to the situation approach in order to avoid escape. Escape elsewhere in the house would really be the worst thing.

Thanks, Minivet.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:42 PM
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How can enlightenment be trouble?

Besides, going out of your way to get the shovel and decapitate a snake that can't hurt you takes effort. Sitting back as it slithers away, murmuring "Bless you, little brother." is the no-effort alternative.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:44 PM
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Escape elsewhere in the house would really be the worst thing.

Yes, because then you'll be nervous whenever you move anything big enough for the snake to be under. That is how it begins.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:44 PM
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Snakes on the brain!

(You're welcome, hope it works.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:47 PM
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204 is false, isn't it?

Some snakes are ovoviviparous, but that's different.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:50 PM
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It's weird, I distinctly remember finding the "Snakes on a Plane" meme funny when it first came out, before the movie, but now I don't have the foggiest notion why. Why the fuck was that funny? It's not funny, at all. It's like everyone on the internet lost their mind for a few weeks.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:51 PM
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My friend who worked as the nature guy at summer camp when we were in high school used to catch black snakes with his bare hands. Then he got bit while catching a copperhead (not with his bare hands) and had to be airlifted to a hospital.


Posted by: Zebedee | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:52 PM
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murmuring "Bless you, little brother." is the no-effort alternative

I would have to make a real effort to pretend to a sense of fraternity with a snake. Or to a sense of sorority, for that matter.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:53 PM
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I think it depends on the snake. And on if a snake can be described as having fun.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:53 PM
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Do you have a flute, piccolo, or recorder?

Is there any connection to pagan rituals and/or entities?

Have you tried being "calm & assertive", truly believing you are the alpha in the pack, and just assuming the snake will follow you outside after you open the closet? Don't look back in doubt, and loss of confidence will break the dominance.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 12:55 PM
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We do intend to approach this with confidence, bob. There will be no namby-pamby shrieking going on. Just get the job done and move on, that's the ticket.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:00 PM
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214.1: See link in 198. I believe more specialized instruments are required.

214.3: At first I believe you are confusing the snake with a dog (Cesar Millan is the "dog whisperer" not the "snake whisperer"). Then you seem to be confusing the snake with Eurydice...or else maybe Sodom.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:02 PM
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Confident, confident, dry and secure. Raise your hand if you're Sure.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:02 PM
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212: What she said.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:03 PM
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213 to 209, or 212.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:05 PM
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An African-American teacher would totally whup that snake's ass.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:09 PM
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219:There is a secret mystic side of me that believes if you are calm, assertive, and confidant enough the fucking mountains will rise up and follow you.

Crazy like "Grizzly Man."


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:33 PM
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I have a second-hand snake story. The place we went to record our most recent EP was an old farmhouse whose barn had been converted into a swanky studio space. The owner of the studio and farmhouse told us he once saw a large black snake silther under the front porch and then under the house.

He proceeds to use a flashlight peer under the house, which is a dirt crawlspace, only to find something like twenty huge black snakes writhing around, which sends him panicking. He calls Animal Control who tells him, "We don't do snakes; you'll have to call someone private."

Finally, he tracks down this local place which requires like $100 just to come out and take a look, which $100 he's only too happy to hand over.

The lady from the snake-wrangling place shows up and excitedly crawls under the house, while the dude's waiting nervously outside. At some point, she screams. Moments later she emerged, her neck bleeding, with a beaming smile and her hands grasping a seven-foot black snake. "I've never seen one this big!"

Anyway, the advice was to just leave 'em be, as they were basically built-in organic mouse traps.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:34 PM
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Technically, I don't think the snakes would be organic unless the mice were fed organic feed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:39 PM
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Freegan snakes, then?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:45 PM
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214: Don't look back in doubt,

We're talking ophidian, bob, not orphic.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:45 PM
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222: Jeezum Crow! The fruit doesn't hang any lower than that!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:46 PM
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There is a secret mystic side of me that believes if you are calm, assertive, and confidant enough the fucking mountains will rise up and follow you. you will get yourself eaten by a grizzly


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:49 PM
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Anecdatally, my stint at Historically Black College in a lower-class neighborhood mostly involved hearing professors tell students to pull up their pants, not listen to iPods indoors, wear business clothes, watch their language, etc., in ways that just don't happen at Middle Class College where I do most of my teaching, which is very mixed racially. I did think it was a problem, in that part of college is about learning how to behave when people aren't telling you how to behave all the time. It was a really important growth process for me, anyway.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 1:56 PM
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Hey you know that song, Alive? Wouldn't it be funny if something like that happened (minus the second verse)?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:14 PM
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Listening to iPods indoors is bad now? Shit.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:19 PM
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and the dying part.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:19 PM
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just assuming the snake will follow you outside after you open the closet? Don't look back in doubt, and loss of confidence will break the dominance

I do this sometimes to make groups move to the next venue. My sister is even better at it. Part of my hippy-wrangling repertoire.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:19 PM
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||

I just tried to post two comments at Crooked Timber fifty minutes apart, and got a "Slow down, you're posting comments too fast" message on the second. Undeterred, I hit post again and it went through a minute or two later. But can they really object to people posting with a less than fifty minute gap between posts?

|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:23 PM
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233: Maybe they're concerned for your productivity.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:25 PM
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My 2nd grade teacher was black. Her name was Mrs. Battle. Boy, was she strict. Or maybe I just was scared of her name.

Benedict Arnold was embittered by what he felt was unfair treatment by Congress. That does not excuse treason.

I once killed an 8' rattler in my garden. My wife was with the baby when she saw it and screamed. I came running over and hit the snake with a metal rake. Yes, I felt very manly and "on the veldt". No five dollars anywhere to be seen.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:25 PM
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I don't see the "lower class homes having more obedient children" either. Lots of little shits around here.

Really, if the lower orders don't set us a good example, what on earth is the use of them?


Posted by: Oscar Wilde | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:28 PM
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233: Strong work, LB. Way to perservere in the face of institutionalized oppression.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:30 PM
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you will get yourself eaten by a grizzly

There was much hullaballooing about Grizzly Man hereabouts, chiefly by one Strasmangelo Jones, back in the day. I tried to watch it but it was agreed without much debate after no more than 20 minutes that we did not want to watch the rest of it. Turned it off. Sorry.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:33 PM
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233: Perhaps someone else from your office's IP address is also commenting there.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:33 PM
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233: out of the less-durable timber of timely comments no edifying thing was ever made.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:35 PM
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238: Grizzly Man was on basic cable the other day. The listing said it contained "Intense Sexual Situations." I didn't want to see somebody hump a bear, so I didn't watch it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:35 PM
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How American of you, Moby Hick, to be squeamish about sex in all it's natural beauty and yet at ease with the slaughter of innocents.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:40 PM
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I didn't want to see somebody hump a bear

C'mon L.B., allude to your joke, we're all waiting for you.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:42 PM
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huh. I guess it would be pretty unremarkable.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:48 PM
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242: I wouldn't want to watch a snake have sex either, unless I saw that the snake consented to the camera.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:49 PM
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The listing said it contained "Intense Sexual Situations." I didn't want to see somebody hump a bear, so I didn't watch it.

Is that accurate? I went over to the NYT review, since that has more detailed explanations of ratings with the occasional cute jab,* and it just said adult language and vivid description of mauling.

* "The Last Airbender" is rated PG (Parental guidance suggested). It kind of looks like they're fighting.

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:53 PM
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246: If it is accurate, I'm pretty sure it was sex between humans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 2:56 PM
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The dude was camping near grizzlies. Maybe they meant in-tents.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:08 PM
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I apologize to all, but especially to Megan.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:10 PM
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In other animal-related news, I may soon be able to keep goats. I'm not sure why I would do so, but it's nice to have options.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:11 PM
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250: If you love them, set them free.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:14 PM
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Or keep them. Goats probably eat mulberry shrubs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:17 PM
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Since I don't like goat cheese, the one advantage I can think of would be a comedy bit where I train the goat to bleat whenever I say "Man, that really gets my goat." I'd be the life of every party, even more so than I already am.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:21 PM
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Goats are kind of fun to watch. If you have a male and don't cut his nuts off soon enough, he'll try to ram his head into you, your car, your house, etc. You can regard that as a plus or minus.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:25 PM
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Stanley, although Burlesque has made a comeback, Vaudeville is dead.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:26 PM
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He might make it work, if he could train the goat to bleat in a tone of ironic detachment.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:41 PM
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On the OP, there was a long thread on Ta-Nehisi Coates' blog about the corporal punishment / stricter parenting style thing and the attitudes behind it.

Also, does anyone know if AWB's gmail address that links from her name actually works? I emailed her the day she was to arrive in Dublin but haven't heard anything. IIRC tomorrow night is her last one here.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 3:46 PM
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Never mind, she emailed me in the meantime - should have checked that first.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:34 PM
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Vaudeville is dead.

This reminds me of a funny scene in Silent Movie.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:39 PM
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I used to catch garter snakes when I was little, to keep for temporary pets. If you sit very still when you first see one, and then move very very slowly toward it, never making any sudden movements, you can just pick it right up.

Also if you have an hour or so to spare sitting around moving slowly enough to not startle it.

Anyway, the main problem with this activity was that snakes pee all over everything when they are frightened, and apparently being picked up by stealthy children is frightening to snakes.

So, watch out for the snake pee, is all I have to say about it.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:41 PM
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I know. I already figured that whatever's on the floor of the hall closet is going to be snake-peed on. Kind of sad for the dust mop, which is a good dust mop. The rest will survive.

Poor snake! Would that we could understand each other better.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:54 PM
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It's okay, parsimon. I'll just be sure to tell all the others to stay better hidden.


Posted by: Snake in the Closet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 4:58 PM
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Poor snake! Would that we could understand each other better

Oh, you understand him alright. Hey, snake:

Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.


Posted by: OPINIONATED YAWEH | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:02 PM
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262 is about in the ballpark. My housemate just got home and is completely cavalier: "Oh, yeah, I think I may have heard something the other night, maybe in the air duct, I don't know. Anyway, it's not going to come out while we're here."

He says, sweeping away the towel stuffed under the door and peering into the closet. Then says, on second thought, closing the door and casually tucking the towel back, "If that makes you feel better."

So I guess there's just a snake in the closet.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:16 PM
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So Heebie got it right in 144.

260- As a kid, I caught a kingsnake that way. I don't remember any pee-ing, though.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:44 PM
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Glue trap and mallet, same as for mice. Or at least my glue trap boxes claim they work for snakes. And Go Moby!. I've had snake phobia since early childhood, the only good snake is an obviously dead one.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:50 PM
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Booooo!


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:52 PM
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266- Antiherpetist.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:52 PM
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Was it this guy?

If so, your problem looks like less a "bite" problem and more of a "musk" problem.

I still say just burn the house down. You have insurance, right? Problem solved.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:53 PM
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There is agreement that it has to be brought outside. At some point. I'll just watch my feet, or the floor, carefully, shall I? There's a shelf unit in the closet, and it's probably under the shelves, which makes things difficult, and it's absolutely right that there's no need for alarm.

This is all happening because we don't have cats any more, you know. I think there's a mouse in the house as well.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:54 PM
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This is all happening because we don't have cats any more

You may have the causality inverted there.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:56 PM
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I think there's a mouse in the house as well

Not for long, sweetheart.


Posted by: SNAKE IN THE CLOSET | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:57 PM
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I think there's a mouse in the house as well.

Let the snake deal with the mouse. Probably why the snake is there in the first place.

We had a saying back in the day. Rain means grain, grain means mice, mice means snakes. You have been warned.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:58 PM
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pwned by a snake. I guess it was to be expected.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 5:59 PM
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SSSSSSSSSSS. SSSSSSSSSSS. SSSSSSSSS. SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.


Posted by: SNAKE IN THE CLOSET | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:00 PM
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Sssssss


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:03 PM
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273: For heaven's sake, alright, it's true that I saw mouse signs in the closet. I was ignoring it for a little while. So okay. Also the closet is backup pantry storage. There's rice in there.

Holy crap. What have I done?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:04 PM
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Eep!


Posted by: Mouse in the Closet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:06 PM
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276. My favorite part of that movie is the failed experiment who ends up in the circus sideshow. So sad.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:07 PM
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Holy crap. What have I done?

Look, you asked for a "long, black snake," and here I am. Is there a problem?


Posted by: SNAKE IN THE CLOSET | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:15 PM
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277: Don't eat the black rice.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:20 PM
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I saw mouse signs in the closet.

We have mouse shit on top of the acoustical tiles in the basement ceiling. I keep meaning to get them with the shop vac, but something else always seems more interesting.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:22 PM
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you asked for a "long, black snake,"

I did not realize that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:26 PM
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With a shop vac and a pillow case, you could probably catch a small snake and keep your fingers safe. Put the pillow case right before the last part of the hose and tape it so that it doesn't suck through to the fan. It will keep the snake from getting squeezed by the fan after you suck it up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:44 PM
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Baadasssss.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:44 PM
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I used to catch garter snakes when I was little, to keep for temporary pets.

Yes, my parents freaked right out one time to see me running around the river with a snake dangling off me. "But Daddy, I looked and it had round eyes not cat eyes!" Daddy was not impressed with my amateur herpetology and told me not to bother the snakes any more. I think I was about six.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:46 PM
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MH should make infomercials.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:47 PM
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284: That seems extreme. There is, as it happens, a shop vac right out on the porch, but tell me: how much would you want to be sucked up by a shop vac? Sure, you'd survive assuming you didn't get a concussion or something, but jesus christ. I mean, holy moly.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:48 PM
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288: I was just spitballing ideas. Legally, I don't think you can consider me an accessory before the fact.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:51 PM
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I thought I had some support here, but if you look at the description he says he didn't vacuum them up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 6:59 PM
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My housemate just decided, at 9 p.m., to investigate the closet, and I offered, "There's a bunch of stuff in there which we have to pull out," and he sputtered, "Well, there've been mice in here! What do you want to do with all this stuff?"

Well, I don't know! It's 9 o'clock! Pull it out, I'll put it somewhere, the food I don't know! Do you want to clean out the entire closet and dispose of the food right now? I guess we should throw it away or examine it to see, but right now? Do you see the snake?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:00 PM
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Yesterday, for the first time ever, I saw a (small) lizard in the house. Some sort of skink or gecko. Disappeared under the stereo when I tried to catch it.

Coincidence?

I think not. They're making their move. Bloody reptiles.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:09 PM
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Parsimon,
Please don't listen to anyone who tells you should capture that mouse and relocate it to a pasture or something. Yes, that would be humane, I suppose. But at this point: it's you or the vermin!

(That said, it can probably all wait until morning, I think).


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:11 PM
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This is gripping liveblogging. You should figure out a way to profit from it.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:11 PM
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In other animal-related news, I may soon be able to keep goats.

When I saw these folks the other night, they said it was a shame it was getting dark, or they'd take me down the street to see the neighbors' goats. A wee bit surprising, given that we are not in Ruralsville, here.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:14 PM
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I'm sure there's a dodgy Black Snake Moan joke somewhere here that would tie together the whole thread (discipline, race relations, snakes), but I'm not competent to formulate it.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:22 PM
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294: If you'd like to see the snake vacuumed, call 1-900-vac-suck. If you'd like to see the captured with a glue trap call 1-900-glu-trap. If you don't see a humane live capture, call 1-900-IAM-Wimp.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:23 PM
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I very much doubt it's gripping liveblogging. There was no swearing, and it's been decided that it can wait until tomorrow, or, you know, later. Some time. Doing this kind of thing at 9 p.m. when everything is dark and shadowed is ridiculous. The snake is under the shelving unit and isn't coming out any time soon, certainly not after all that banging around.

MC, the mouse is the last thing on anyone's mind! I'll put out humane traps of some sort. Unfortunately I have some other deadline oriented things to do in the next few days which take priority. I was just hoping not to step on a snake in the meanwhile.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:32 PM
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Well, thank God you're back, Parsi: I was beginning to think we were going to have to send in reinforcements.

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't worry too much about a mouse. Or, at least, not when there's a hungry snake on the loose. Not that there's anything to worry about, of course.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:43 PM
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Kobe suggests buying a bunch of frozen mice, feeding them to the snake, and waiting for it to die of salmonella.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:46 PM
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Yeah, you can just head off to bed. I'll stay right here. I promise not to move.


Posted by: Snake in the Closet | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:48 PM
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Confession: I don't understand the Kobe reference; never have.

Anyway, I've had enough for today. It looks like the closet is a total disaster in terms of mouse, and now snake, feeding ground, but I imagine they'll keep to their closet for the night.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:51 PM
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At this point I would recommend against swallowing any flies, Parsimon.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:51 PM
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301: Times are changing. There is no need to stay in the closet if you don't want to.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:51 PM
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Just don't shop at Target.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:52 PM
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302.1: Kobe scored 100 points in a game. At least that is what I've always thought the reference was about.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:54 PM
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IN HIS FUCKING DREAMS!


Posted by: OPINIONATED ZOMBIE WILT CHAMBERLAIN | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:59 PM
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I've just tried (again) to track down the origin of Kobe in the archives, but to no avail. It comes up a lot in 2006 but I haven't found the first one.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 7:59 PM
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Oh.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:01 PM
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309: Good find. There was a lot of general speculation at the time.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:06 PM
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Wikipedia says Kobe never got to 100, so now I don't get it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:10 PM
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Thread linked in 308 & 309 -> 310.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:15 PM
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For a very long time, I have assumed that he must have gotten to 100 or "Kobe" would have been "Wilt." Anyway, 306 was what happens when I try to be informative. The vacuum the snake plan was more accurate.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:17 PM
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300:Wait, frozen mice can give you salmonella? Really?


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:36 PM
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314: I put a link here the other day, but I can't find it easily now. It was in the NYT over the weekend or last week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:43 PM
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315: Possibly the frozen mice merely came close to giving people salmonella, but never quite actually accomplished it. (And although their career is not yet over, they are past their prime.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:47 PM
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||

Ugh, I'm surrounded by Arcade Fire hype like it's 2005. Am I going to have to start hating them again?

|>


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 8:52 PM
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314: Yes, Bob, really. And here's the link.

My question, as always, is: Who the hell keeps a snake for a pet, and dear God, why? Okay, that's two questions, admittedly, but they are closely related. I guess I cannot imagine going to the trouble and expense of supporting an animal companion that cannot look me in the eye.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:00 PM
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People probably have snakes just for an excuse to keep frozen mice in the freezer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:10 PM
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309: Apparently that thread was also the origin of Becks-style, which is one of the in-jokes that died out.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 2-10 9:17 PM
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318: Because their movements are sensual and voluptuous. Eye contact is overrated, and besides, they can smell you!

Also, on the original subject of this thread, I don't believe I've had any black teachers or professors either, all the way through K-12-university. It's rather shocking.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:18 AM
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It might be worth noting, though, that a lot of the talent in science and engineering comes from overseas. There just aren't that many Americans in my field to begin with, let alone African-Americans.

It's still pretty shocking, though.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:34 AM
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314: Damn near everything is contaminated with Salmonella or some other nasty. Sign up for FDA notices via email and never sleep soundly again. I'm kinda amazed about how often one hits my inbox.

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/ContactFDA/StayInformed/GetEmailUpdates/default.htm


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 5:26 AM
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320: Fully supplanted by Btock-style?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 6:32 AM
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320. Arising from the much lamented absense of Becks. (Btock-style was originally defined as a particularly egregious example of Becks-style, but I'm not going to look for it).


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 6:52 AM
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325.last: That works. Becks-style is intentionally self-reported while Btock-style is unintentionally revealed.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 6:58 AM
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302: Catching snakes isn't that hard, as long as you remember to control the head. That's the only dangerous part, so it's not like catching a bear where you have to watch out for claws as well. You need a stick about three feet long, ideally with a fork in the end. Use the stick to pin the snake's head to the floor, then pick it up just behind the head. Drop it in a bag (a pillowcase works well) and it will calm down due to the darkness. Messily is correct about pee, so don't wear a ball gown. Also snakes get really sluggish when they are cold, but I'm not sure if you can take advantage of that unless you want to fill the closet with ice. I was the designated family snake wrangler when I was a teenager so I've dealt with a fair number of them. Never been bitten, but I came really close once with an Egyptian Cobra that scared the living shit out of me. That rear up and spread the hood trick is very effective, and taps into some deep on-the-veldt neural circuitry.

A friend of mine had a small Boa that he left with me and my roommate one spring break. We tried to feed it a mouse but it ignored the mouse and eventually the mouse just ate a piece of the snake's tail. We released the mouse into the wild to spread its ├╝bermaus genes.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 6:59 AM
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Becks-style is the kind of drunken commenting that is maybe a bit more aggressive or self-revealing than usual. Btock-style is blackout commenting, unlikely to be remembered or understood by reader or writer (in the morning). I have done both.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:00 AM
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Most snakes will eat a live mouse if they're hungry, but they'll ignore a dead one, frozen or not, unless you wave it about like the gentleman dining at Crewe. Because they're not programmed to notice things that don't move. The most successful python owner I ever knew was a tech at a biology lab, who had access to an unlimited supply of used rodents and used to push them down the snake's gullet with a stick while her boyfriend held it (the snake) straight.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:10 AM
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Catching snakes isn't that hard, as long as you remember to control the head. That's the only dangerous part, so it's not like catching a bear where you have to watch out for claws as well.

Plus, bears might be a bit heavier.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:10 AM
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Plus, bears might be a bit heavier.

For now. Which is another reason to worry about global warming


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:14 AM
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The most successful python owner I ever knew was a tech at a biology lab...

Then you should get a horse. The most successful horse owner I ever knew was a very wealthy man indeed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:17 AM
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Btock also has freakishly adorable children, now available for viewing in the flickr pool.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:30 AM
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By will alone I move the bear, by will alone I set the bear in motion.

331:Having spent hundreds of thousands on a summer expedition to Outer Slobbovia, your young paleontologist does not come home with the bones of three ordinary raptors and an iguanodon. They always find "the biggest something ever" newer and better and more special. Lucky lucky scientists, every single one.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 7:33 AM
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They always find "the biggest something ever" newer and better and more special.

That isn't what is always found. The rest of it just isn't very likely to get written-up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 8:37 AM
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The rest of it just isn't very likely to get written-up.

To be clear, "written-up" in the popular press, which starts at Scientific American and ScienceBlogs and goes south from there. It'll get written up in a journal of some sort for the benefit of the people's publication count.



Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 8:45 AM
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336: If it gets past the reviewers. In certain fields, it won't.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 8:50 AM
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337. True. The "null results" problem. That's the fault of the reviewers, not the field workers, unless it's a genuinely shoddy piece of work.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 8:51 AM
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Have we really only had 3 posts in the past week?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:32 AM
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I've been toying with a thrilling post on the fact that it's been a year since I started my bike commute, and it's been okay, except that there's one part of my route that I find unworkable after dark, so the commute's no good in the winter.

But I haven't quite been able to inflict it on the rest of you -- the total lack of interest for anyone who doesn't happen to actually be me holds me back.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:40 AM
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Surely many more people are interested in where statutory interpretation meets Wikipedia.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:43 AM
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340: See earlier words of wisdom from bob.

Lead and we will follow; post and we will comment.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:45 AM
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Oooh, I'm now very impressed with Wikimedia's general counsel's smartassery:

"While we appreciate your desire to revise the statute to reflect your expansive vision of it, the fact is that we must work with the actual language of the statute, not the aspirational version" that the F.B.I. had provided.

Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:45 AM
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340: I am interested in what part is unworkable after dark and why. So go!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:51 AM
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341: After this weekend's 14-mile ride* I am both more and less ready to attack that trail. More in that I am factually aware I can ride that distance; less in that I have seen what a sweaty pile of tiredness I am after**. Also if I ever ride it to work it is less likely that I can stop and have a couple of beers and some sort of Slavic schnitzel at the midpoint, or anyway it won't do much for my workday productivity, such as it is. I need to figure out subway strategies for a partial traversal of The Lizard Breath Expressway as it shall now be known. To me.

*actual distance not known but this sounds vaguely right plus really impressive if you're me and get tired driving fourteen miles, so I'm sticking with it.

**Well not seen so much as experienced. I was whipped but not having out-of-body experiences.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:59 AM
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341 s/b 340


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 10:59 AM
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http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.812664,-73.965992&spn=0.000381,0.000846&t=h&z=20Right here. There's about a mile where the Greenway (on the left) is just a couple of feet from oncoming traffic on the West Side Highway, with no visual barrier. This isn't a problem at all during the day, but at night you're getting headlights square in the eyes.

I find I'm almost completely blind for that stretch, and the path is narrow and not perfectly straight -- there's one spot where it splits to go around a tree, and I've had to stop short with my front wheel inches from the tree because I couldn't see it at all. Really bright streetlights would help, as would any kind of opaque barrier -- even a heavy fabric curtain would do it. But as it is, I just can't manage it after dark.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:00 AM
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She rides through a vampire crypt?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:00 AM
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I'm now very impressed with Wikimedia's general counsel's smartassery

None other than Mike Godwin, of the eponymous internet tradition. There's plenty more smartassery in the full letter, down to the valediction ("with all appropriate respect"). Well deserved; what is the FBI thinking? Even if their interpretation of the statute were correct, could it possibly hold up under the First Amendment?


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:02 AM
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345: If you do it a couple of times a week, in two weeks it won't seem bad at all. Ditching into the subway is actually fairly challenging, though -- I had thought of it as a safety net if I just got too tired, but the prospect of finding a spot where I can cross the highway, and then getting up what's going to be a pretty big hill almost any place uptown to get from the river to the A train, and then managing the bike on the subway, has left me never actually attempting it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:04 AM
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349: The same Mike Godwin? I am impressed again.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:04 AM
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None other than Mike Godwin, of the eponymous internet tradition.

Hey, right! I remember that from QI.

I could see them having a legitimate beef (but not a legal case) with Wikipedia having a high-resolution image (though I checked and it's just as detailed on Britannica). The rest is probably just intimidation-as-business-as-usual and legal graspingness.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:05 AM
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Now you just need to triple that 14 miles by next May.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:08 AM
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353: That is so many flavors of not-going-to-happen.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:17 AM
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350: dang, I thought it was the previous problem. That's tougher to solve. Shoot out the approaching headlights?

I mean, you could work on a route that didn't have this problem, like along streets or something.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:20 AM
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Mmm. I keep on thinking I should do some longer rides on weekends, but that doesn't happen either.

Based on past experience, though, I'd figure that if you can do ten miles on a bike, you can do probably do fifty, so long as you're not going particularly fast and you can take breaks. It's an awfully efficient way of getting around.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:20 AM
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347: Ah. I understand completely. I recently drove in the pitch dark for the first time in a long time on a ruralish highway with no streetlights, but whose oncoming traffic both blinded me and prevented my using brights. It sucked.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:23 AM
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355.1: I know someone who claims to manage it with a visor on his helmet, and keeping his gaze fixed on the ground right in front of his front wheel. This doesn't really appeal to me.

A headlamp that literally had the power of car headlights might work, but I don't know that they exist, or are workably installable on a bike.

And the city could fix it with a mile of a heavy fabric barrier on poles. I keep on toying with the idea of calling 311 and suggesting this, but the prospect of explaining the suggestion to someone defeats me a bit. I suppose I could write a letter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:24 AM
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or are workably installable on a bike

Maybe one of these?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:29 AM
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358.3: I'm sure the drivers won't miss their view of the Hudson in the least.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:33 AM
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360: Oh, it's a mile. Maybe a mile and a half. And they should be looking at the road anyway. We could make it a pretty color?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:38 AM
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355.2: You know, I had been dismissing that because getting on and off the Greenway really is a noticeable hassle, as I mentioned to Smearcase above. But looking at the map, come to think, it actually might be doable -- ditch onto Riverside Drive and get back to the Greenway at Fairway.

I should try that sometime between now and daylight savings' end.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:40 AM
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I keep on thinking I should do some longer rides on weekends, but that doesn't happen either.

Since I've been riding a bike to do all my commuting and errands, I find that riding a bike for fun has zero appeal. I'm on my bike plenty, thank you, for real things.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:52 AM
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363: Have you tried putting a baseball card in the spokes?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:53 AM
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my grandmother had a snake (rattler) fall down the chimney into the fireplace (where there was no fire). she said she beat it to death with a poker, apologizing out loud all the while: "so sorry mr. snake, this just isn't a good place for you to be."


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:55 AM
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363: That's sort of it -- while I love my bike, riding for fun seems a bit like joyriding on the A train. But I would like to talk myself into a couple of longer rides, mostly because although I intellectually believe what I said above about if you can do ten, you can do fifty, I'd like to prove it to myself again.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 11:57 AM
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365: My uncle killed a mouse by throwing a salt shaker at it. This did not make grandma happy, apparently, as there were guests who would not have noticed the mouse otherwise and because throwing a salt shaker isn't well mannered. It did give my uncle a big boost in popularity among the younger cousins.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:00 PM
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Based on past experience, though, I'd figure that if you can do ten miles on a bike, you can do probably do fifty, so long as you're not going particularly fast and you can take breaks.

IME two things that can make this statement false are (a) if the fifty miles are consistently uphill or (b) if you don't have a source of food.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:00 PM
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Fair enough. I was working from Peace Corps experience -- I'd ride a couple of miles a day a couple of times a week, and then every month or two do either thirty or fifty visiting friends without any particular problem. But that was on a coastal road without important hills, and with no more than fifteen or so miles between places to buy a snack or get a drink.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:05 PM
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Is it harder to buy a snack in NYC than a Pacific Island?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:07 PM
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In the islands the snacks are defrosted mice or if you're lucky fresh heavily salted mice. But your uncle needs good aim for the latter.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:15 PM
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I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who's bought a Pacific island in NYC, so probably not.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:16 PM
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Take a straight line, leave a straight line. That's my motto.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:17 PM
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I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who's bought a Pacific island in NYC, so probably not.


How about this one


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:22 PM
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every month or two do either thirty or fifty visiting friends

Wow! Fun times in Samoa!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:23 PM
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I sort of wish Brock had been the one to write 314.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:23 PM
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Take a straight line, leave a straight line. That's my motto

Heteronormative?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:24 PM
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This just in: we rode more like 22 miles. Get a load, I am saying, of us. But again, there was a beer and sausage intermission, and that makes anything easier.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:55 PM
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375: Did I ever tell you guys about the time I biked fifty miles to a housewarming party that turned out to have been cancelled? Socializing in Samoa was complicated.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:56 PM
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378: You are, collectively, the men.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 12:57 PM
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OH MY GOD A NEW POST.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 1:01 PM
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374: Hmm, two things about that site: 1. If you're going for a high-end market, do you really want to write your listings in abbreviations? Kinda makes it seem less luxurious. 2. The one house in St. Paul is certainly nice, and I'm guessing it's either on the river, or Summit Ave. or Cathedral Hill. But $900K doesn't buy you much luxury in those locations. It seems like the houses a lot of my UMC friends grew up in -- nice, and well-maintained, and certainly more opulent than anywhere I've ever lived, but hardly "luxurious" in any meaningful sense of the term.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 1:09 PM
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hardly "luxurious" in any meaningful sense of the term.

That's the funny thing about listings. It is often the client's wish to be included in some sort of "exclusive" area, and Realtors are whores. Standards are harder to keep in a recession.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 1:15 PM
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Boy do I ever despise the residential real estate industry right now. Black people with poor table manners, the lot of them.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08- 3-10 4:47 PM
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