Re: My tax dollars at work.

1

Damn straight. That's one developmentally disabled lady who'll never off her husband again.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:29 AM
horizontal rule
2

I'm not a death penalty fan, but come on, she was plenty mentally competent to orchestrate two murders.

For fuck's sake I wish more attention could be found for better injustices. Seems like calls for mercy and justice is reserved for crazy white bitches or equally nonsensical causes like Mumia.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:46 AM
horizontal rule
3

BTW, my ire is not direct at Senor Stanley. It's a blog and you don't get to pick what makes the news. But it sure would be nice if the poor black guys (some of them innocent) also got noticed by celebrities and foreign goverments.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:58 AM
horizontal rule
4

I love how psychological findings morph from nonsense to wisdom and back again depending on how they support a POV or don't.

She's a poor poster child for abolition. There are any number of good reasons to be against the death penalty, preserving her particular life isn't one of them.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:02 AM
horizontal rule
5

Of course she's a poor poster child. That's why she's dead.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:14 AM
horizontal rule
6

4: I'm against the death penalty full stop, so I guess that I do believe that her particular life was worth preserving.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:58 AM
horizontal rule
7

So the shooters got life. That makes sense.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:06 AM
horizontal rule
8

Bostoniangirl is me. Killing this woman in particular doesn't seem like a great argument for the death penalty either, does it?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:22 AM
horizontal rule
9

I think it is a sign of my steadily-increasing age that my views on the death penalty are shifting away from being generally against it, such that now I find myself gravitating more towards an attitude of "Oh, well. Sucks for them."


Posted by: MAE (well over 30, therefore not to be trusted) | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:22 AM
horizontal rule
10

Didn't one of the shooters testify that the now-dead lady was a slow-witted easy-target and that he goaded her into the whole thing?
I join BG in being against the death penalty, full stop. And for the aspiring vengeance demons, doesn't life in prison seem worse, anyway?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:31 AM
horizontal rule
11

I find it difficult to reconcile my opposition to the death penalty with my desire to throw a large part of the ruling class up against the wall.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:39 AM
horizontal rule
12

10

Didn't one of the shooters testify that the now-dead lady was a slow-witted easy-target and that he goaded her into the whole thing?

No.

According to the WP:

But Shallenberger, who dreamed of becoming a mob hit man, later told a former girlfriend in a letter that he had used Lewis because he wanted money to go to New York and become a drug dealer. He committed suicide in prison.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:54 AM
horizontal rule
13

I, too, am against the death penalty, full stop. I don't see this as being inconsistent with the views expressed by gswift and Biohazard.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:57 AM
horizontal rule
14

12: So "testified" is wrong. But "admitted that he planned the killings and used Teresa to get her to give him the insurance money."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:00 AM
horizontal rule
15

Oudemia, I read that too and remember that he'd written a confession but when it came time to sign it he ripped it up and tried to eat it rather than verify that story. I don't remember anymore where I saw this, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:04 AM
horizontal rule
16

15: He wrote a letter to a girlfriend where he lays out the whole thing. That definitely still exists -- I just read it online!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:06 AM
horizontal rule
17

I find I'm upsettingly fencey about the DP. It puts me in questionable company, or near it--I'm still weakly anti-, if I had to vote on it. But, hey, if I fell off the fence into pro-DP territory, it'd make for a satisfying kind of consistency. Pro-abortion (pro choice, obvs, but beyond that, I think abortion is just fine), devoutly pro-assisted-suicide; add in capital punishment and I could just say I'm pro-death. In practice the death penalty is, by lefty conventional wisdom, meted out with horrifying racial bias, and it's maybe something I'm not sure I trust the often highly gefuckt criminal justice system with. In theory, well.....I've forgotten why I got quite so het up about it in my seventh grade position paper.

And then I killed five dollars. I imagine this issue has been well-covered in these pages.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:45 AM
horizontal rule
18

17 expresses my feelings to a T.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:58 AM
horizontal rule
19

To my mind, the question about the death penalty is how many executions after wrongful convictions are acceptable, and how low a rate of execution after wrongful conviction it is possible to achieve. Since the answers to those questions seem pretty self-evidently to be zero and more than zero, respectively, I'm against it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:03 AM
horizontal rule
20

On the death penalty I keep coming back to Adolf Eichmann. That motherfucker sure as hell deserved to hang.

In the US justice system as currently constituted I really can't support the death penalty. Routinely executing innocent people seems to me like a bad thing, as does executing someone while letting a worse offender serve a lesser sentence, but that's what we do.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:11 AM
horizontal rule
21

I'm somewhat sympathetic to 17, because I find that for certain types of crime, my liberal heart does not bleed as profusely as it once did. And every once in a while I'll hear or read of a case (there's one in Chester, CT, e.g.) that really challenges my opposition to the death penalty.

That said, I find it grotesque that the state would execute a borderline mentally retarded person, and I oppose the death penalty for all of the reasons mentioned above (racial disparities, wrongful convictions, and so on).


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:30 AM
horizontal rule
22

19 expresses my feelings to a T.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:30 AM
horizontal rule
23

What fundamentally bothers me about the death penalty in the US is that in practice, we have the death penalty for people convicted of horrendous crimes (most guilty, some innocent), who have lousy lawyers. There are enough reasons not to give someone the death penalty, regardless of the facts of the crime they were convicted of, that actually getting a death sentence most likely means your lawyer screwed up.

At that point, they're all unjust. I'd almost think an across-the-board first-degree-murder-conviction-means-death policy was more equitable. (Oh, I'd oppose that too, as overly harsh. To get to a death penalty I could imagine not being strongly opposed to, it would need to be about as rare as what we have now, but more fairly administered, and I don't think that's practical.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:43 AM
horizontal rule
24

Surely Eichmann deserved much worse, no?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
25

I live in Washington, and a couple of weeks ago, the state killed Cal Coburn Brown, who had raped, tortured, and killed a woman while on parole for similar crimes in Oregon, during some kind of weekend parole-abscondment spree where he also raped and tortured a woman in California.

This caused me to look up some of the other folks my state has killed since the death penalty was reinstated. They include Charles Rodman Campbell, who raped a woman in the 1970s, did six years of a 30-year sentence for that, got out, found the victim, and executed her for testifying against him.

I'm theoretically against the death penalty, but do I think it was wrong for my state to kill these men? No. No I don't. These weren't liquor store holdups gone wrong. There wasn't a questionable eyewitness I.D. They're white guys in a state full of white guys.


Posted by: briefestdelurk | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
26


19: But what if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered? How would you feel about it then?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
27

26 is the heart of the death penalty debate in the US. I fall for it a bit in my thinking about the Eichmanns and the much more common retail evil in 25. The real question in the case of the US is "Is killing the evil men of 25 worth occasionally killing an innocent person?"

Alternatively, reframe in the rhetoric of shouting heads media as "How many innocent people should the US execute in order to execute some of the guilty?" Or even better "Would you be willing to see Kitty Dukakis executed for a crime she didn't commit in order to ensure that Cal Coburn Brown was hanged?"


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
28

we have the death penalty for people convicted of horrendous crimes (most guilty, some innocent), who have lousy lawyers.

I believe no other kind of criminal case gets adjudicated more fairly than a death penalty case. This belief puts me in the weird position of being anti-death penalty, but thinking it's not really a key issue even in the context of important issues in the criminal justice system.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
29


Would you be willing to see Kitty Dukakis executed for a crime she didn't commit in order to ensure that Cal Coburn Brown was hanged?

Make it "executing Barbara Bush for a crime she didn't commit in order to see that Eichmann is hanged" and you've got yourself a deal.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
30

28: That's probably true, but also not incompatible with what I said.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
31

What is the affirmative case for the death penalty? Vengeance and deterrence seem to both justify far more extreme policies than death under anesthesia.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
32

What is the current state of the research on the deterrence value of the death penalty?

My half assed following of the issue says that the consensus went from saying it had no deterrence value to saying that the evidence from different sources is conflicting and gosh predicting crime statistics is hard.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
33

At my old firm, I had a client who was on Virginia's death row. He was executed earlier this year (after I left).

He had truly terrible court-appointed lawyers. He was convicted of two, unrelated murders that happened six months apart. He was tried for both in a single trial -- with no objection from his lawyers. The entire trial lasted two days. That includes jury selection and the sentencing phase. There was literally no physical evidence. His lawyers' argument in mitigation was that there were other people present who he could have killed, but didn't--"he showed mercy."

In Virgina, failure to preserve arguments at the original trial or on direct appeal pretty much dooms your chances on habeas. So we often felt like we were window dressing. Maybe the governor and the 4th circuit sleep better at night knowing he had a big DC law firm representing him. But not when it mattered.


Posted by: tulip | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:15 AM
horizontal rule
34

32: That's my impression as well, but I haven't looked in depth.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
35

What is the current state of the research on the deterrence value of the death penalty?

It certainly deters the executed from committing any further crimes. Beyond that, I doubt it has much effect.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
36

Yeah, I'm remembering no positive evidence at all that there's any deterrent value (and of course general research suggesting that rare, draconian penalties have less effect on behavior than certain, mild penalties would suggest that).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
37

27 is apt.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
38

35: Technically, that sort of argument is called 'incapacitation'. And the numbers of people executed, compared to the murder rate, are low enough that it's not that much of an effect.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
39

Quick googling finds this from Kieran Healy at CT citing research showing that there might be a deterrent effect in states that kill a lot of people, and being unconvinced by it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
40

Yeah, I was separating the incapacitation argument from the deterrence argument--since incapacitation is obtained more cheaply by life without parole.

Fifteen, twenty years ago I remember the main data on deterrence coming from studies comparing death penalty states with non-death penalty states. This data showed more effect. Then like five years ago I started hearing studies that looked for different sorts of 'experiments in nature' and did find an effect. But I don't remember what they were, only that they seemed plausible even though they were politically motivated.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
41

--since incapacitation is obtained more cheaply by life without parole.

I think a big part of the support for the death penalty comes from people who do not believe that the state will enforce life without parole.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
42

I am pretty much in the not morally problematic in a perfect justice system, but pretty problematic in practice.

In my fairy world where the convicted are 100% guilty I would be fine walking them straight from the courtroom to the execution chamber. Much cheaper and less hassle that way. This would obviously be horribly unjust in any real world.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
43

The evidence on the deterrent effect of the death penalty is looking more and more like the evidence for global warning: Most of the most recent studies find an effect, and most people who are ideologically opposed to finding the effect find the studies unconvincing.

Since I remain firmly oposed to the death penalty on purely moral grounds, the studies are irrelevant to me.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
44

incapacitation is obtained more cheaply by life without parole

...and solitary confinement, thank you very much.


Posted by: The rest of the gigantic prison population | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:37 AM
horizontal rule
45

43: Do these studies control for the amount of publicity given to criminal penalties?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
46


Have there been any studies into the apparent correlation between being called by your first and middle name and being convicted of capital murder? Because it sure seems like the Ricky Rays and Carla Fayes of this country are disproportionately likely to find themselves on death row.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:45 AM
horizontal rule
47

33 is terrible.

I'm against the death penalty, but I don't have much of a problem making a mass murder exception for Eichmann (or Hitler, Goebbels, Pol Pot, or Amin). At some point, there comes the question of where you draw the line -- how many murders is "mass", how much direct control, does it matter if most of their victims were starved (Stalin, Kim Jong Il) instead of executed outright? Is there a difference between waging a "recognized" war and deliberate genocide? Is Nixon a mass murderer because of the number of civilians killed in Vietname? Etc.

Still, I'd have no problem throwing the switch for Eichmann.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
48

I find it hard to imagine anyone being deterred from a crime by the death penalty and not a life sentence, but I suppose there might be some psychological element like finality that makes a difference.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
49


Still, I'd have no problem throwing the switch for Eichmann.

There were severe procedural irregularities involved in his apprehension, you know.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
50

I'd have no problem throwing the switch for Eichmann.

I'd have no problem throwing the switch for Kissinger.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:51 AM
horizontal rule
51

What if the switch was really, really heavy and covered with cow snot?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
52

I'd get apo to help me.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
53

And wear gloves.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
54

Cow snot always has bits of whatever the cow has been eating mixed in with it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:55 AM
horizontal rule
55

where the convicted are 100% guilty I would be fine walking them straight from the courtroom to the execution chamber. Much cheaper and less hassle that way. This would obviously be horribly unjust in any real world.

There's no actual reason why you have to wait around for years or decades between conviction and execution. In Britain, when murderers were hanged, it generally happened a couple of weeks after the trial. You got convicted, your appeal was turned down, and off you went. Speed was viewed as humane. (See the rather good film "Pierrepoint").


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
56

What happened to the Unfogged of yore, where we would just feed people to pigs. It was a simpler time, none of these newfangled switches.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:57 AM
horizontal rule
57

54: To sort of tie things together here, I've always been taught, "To err is human; to eat grass and then sneeze it out, bovine."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
58

On the death penalty I keep coming back to Adolf Eichmann. That motherfucker sure as hell deserved to hang.

Yep, and all the people he helped to kill deserved to live. What are you going to do about that?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
59

no actual reason why you have to wait around for years

This is a pretty good reason.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
60

57: Unless you are willing to teach cows to eat with a fork, that seems like a cruel taunt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
61

Yep, and all the people he helped to kill deserved to live.
Probably not all: what if one of them had grown up to be the next Hitler?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
62

46: A statistically improbable number of mass murderers have the middle name "Wayne." This effect is probably declining for those born after 1980 or so. Apparently if your parents name you for a draftdodging fake soldier and fake cowboy, you may grow up with issues.

The larger middle name effect, sadly, is simply a result of the mass media convention of including the middle name in any story about a criminal to reduce the risk of libel suits.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
63

61: he'd deserve to live too.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
64

58: A classic, but classic for a reason.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
65

62.2: I had no idea there was an explanation for that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
66

33 is horrifying.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
67

In Britain, when murderers were hanged, it generally happened a couple of weeks after the trial. You got convicted, your appeal was turned down, and off you went. Speed was viewed as humane.

One of the most admirable features of the English criminal law is said to be its dispatch. You are tried as soon as possible after your arrest, the trial takes three or four days at most, and after conviction (unless, of course, you appeal), you are executed within three weeks.

[The convicted prisoner] refused to appeal. . . .
Harriet, in consequence, was left to form the opinion that three weeks was quite the worst period of waiting in the world. A prisoner should be executed the morning after his conviction, as after a court-martial, so that one could get all the misery over in a lump and have done with it. Or the business should be left to drag on for months and years, as in America, till one was so weary of it as to have exhausted all emotion.

Dorthy Sayers, Busman's Honeymoon (1937)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
68

I saw a Dateline (or similar) about a woman who was charged with capital murder (plead to a lesser charge) for killing her newborn. I think her IQ was in the 40s. A lawyer working on an appeal for one of her co-defendants (her husband and sister, both also mentally retarded, were charged along with her) discovered not only that she had not given birth, but that she could not possibly have ever been pregnant -- she'd had her tubes tied years earlier (and subsequent testing showed the ligation still fully in effect). The prison doctor who "confirmed" the pregnancy had done so only with a doppler (no point in spending money on pregnancy tests, and no blood test was ever performed) and the state fought the case tooth and nail. The husband and sister are now out of jail (I think only because they agreed to plead to something just to end it). The woman is *still in jail* because she now insists she totally killed that (could not possibly have existed) kid for sure.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
69

In John Wayne-related news, I learned just last night that the next Coen Brothers flick is a remake of True Grit, starring among other people Jeff Bridges and Matt Damon. Which sounded...odd.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
70

This thread is bringing me down. Who's going to New York Comic-Con to play Nerd Stigmata (x points for fedora, Venom T-shirt, Betty Page hair, homemade stormtrooper, black duster, Juggalo paraphernalia, etc.)?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:21 AM
horizontal rule
71

62.last

I had hypothesized that something like that might be at work -- not fear of libel suits per se, but just a general cautiousness about confused identity in the case of notorious criminals. But if that's the case, why don't we hear about "Charles Milles Manson" or "John Warnock Hinckley"?

I'm sticking by my theory that if you have a one-syllable middle name that combines assonantly or consonantly with your first name, you're pretty much fated to suffer death by lethal injection.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:24 AM
horizontal rule
72

This is bad news for Tommy Lee Jones, Jamie Lee Curtis and Tim Brooke-Taylor.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:28 AM
horizontal rule
73

And do we really need to hear John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt's entire name every single time?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:28 AM
horizontal rule
74

71: And it's often nickname + middle name + surname. Like Charlie Claude Starkweather or the aforementioned Ricky Ray Rector.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
75

The people do love to shout it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
76

I'm for it if it takes out Billy Ray Cyrus.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
77

Hey, that's my pseud too!


Posted by: John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
78

||
Bike lane flamebait. (Video)
|>


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:38 AM
horizontal rule
79

I've never seen him live, but I've heard Stevie Ray Vaughan can really kill it.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:40 AM
horizontal rule
80

You people are misunderstanding the Wayne effect. The name "John Wayne" itself has a mystical effect. People with the middle name "Wayne" are more likely to be killers because they have half the name. But if you get the whole name, then you are bound for infamy. See John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Bobbitt, and John Wayne.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
81

32: I know an ex-cop, politically centrist, who's studying the death penalty, and he said flatly there's no basis for believing deterrence exists.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:55 AM
horizontal rule
82

Oh, ____ Wayne _____.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
83

Ok, I've set leechblock and stayfocusd to the nuclear option on all my browsers. I will not be on unfogged, facebook, or twitter again during business hours. Unless I am. Ok, bye y'all.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
84

I am against the death penalty.

This particular case demonstrates the randomness of it. She was barely competent. Unfortunately, courts view it as an on/off switch.

In many other jurisdictions in Virginia, she would have had a chance of getting less than life.

A quick comparison of who gets life and who gets death demonstrates that really bad factors determine who dies.

I am going to try to mostly stay out of this discussion as my firm does a fair number of death penalty cases.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
85

my firm does a fair number of death penalty cases

I had heard that divorce law had become a lot more unfavorable to the husband in recent decades, but I had no idea the pendulum had swung so far.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
86

33:

In my humble opinion, the death penalty bar in Virginia is now mostly outstanding. We should expect nothing less than all outstanding however with something so important as the death penalty.

Criminal defense for the indigent is severely handicapped by funding. The lawyers are mostly excellent and hard-working, but they need experts and investigators. Once again, I highly recommend www.theagitator.com as someone who is a fabulous advocate for keeping an eye on the police.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
87

I miss rob helpy-chalk.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
88

See John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Bobbitt, and John Wayne.

The actor Marion Mitchell Morrison should not be confused with the roles he played, almost all of whom killed someone during the film or as part of the backstory. In more than one film the characters portrayed would have been good candidates for the death penalty.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
89

87: I can't believe you drove him away like that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
90

From the original post:

The Commonwealth of Virginia shuffled someone off tonight.

I originally read this to indicate that the state had sent someone to Buffalo. But I guess that would be cruel and unusual.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
91

90: It's the Buffalo buffalo that really get to you.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:26 AM
horizontal rule
92

and it's maybe something I'm not sure I trust the often highly gefuckt criminal justice system with.

You're convinced it's often highly gefuckt, yet you're still not sure that you should distrust it to decide who gets killed?

Ok, I've set leechblock and stayfocusd to the nuclear option on all my browsers.

Leechist.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
93

I'm theoretically against the death penalty, but do I think it was wrong for my state to kill these men? No. No I don't. These weren't liquor store holdups gone wrong. There wasn't a questionable eyewitness I.D. They're white guys in a state full of white guys.

a) Racist.

b) I don't actually think this is precisely what you're doing, but so often the frame for death penalty discussions seems to be "either we kill them or we just turn them loose on society again."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
94

"either we kill them or we just turn them loose on society again."
I sometimes wonder how our approach towards criminals should change as we become better at diagnosing and treating various antisocial personality disorders. If only we ha someone on Unfogged who teaches biomedical ethics.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:54 AM
horizontal rule
95

90.last: After Noodles (Robert DeNiro) comes back from his "exile" in Buffalo in Once Upon a Time in America:

Fat Moe: What have you been doing all these years?
Noodles: Been going to bed early...

But Thorn has a view.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
96

I sometimes wonder how our approach towards criminals should change as we become better at diagnosing and treating various antisocial personality disorders.

I was unaware we'd gotten any better a treating them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:01 AM
horizontal rule
97

"at treating them"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:01 AM
horizontal rule
98

I'm pretty sure I've offered my review of Buffalo before, but my twenty-four hours there taught me that

-Buffaloans (?) are very friendly and hospitable;

-They are also generally surprised you're in Buffalo and not sure why you'd do such a thing as go there, even if you are scheduled to play a rock show;

-There's a bar there that, on Mondays, gives you free chicken if you order a drink; like, a lot of chicken; no, like, seriously, unlimited chicken;

-That same bar also shows pr0n from the '70s on the TVs but, again, only on Mondays;

-Many people want to be sure you know not to cross into Canada "if you've got any priors".


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:04 AM
horizontal rule
99

Many people want to be sure you know not to cross into Canada "if you've got any priors".

Is that because you can't get in or can't get back out?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:07 AM
horizontal rule
100

If your priors might result in capital punishment here in the States, it might be a good idea to cross into Canada.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
101

I like Buffalo in part because of the family members who live there, but it also boasts both a lively arts scene and the depressing urban decay I love because I don't have to live there.

In other contrarian opinions, I don't know how people get addicted to stuff like hydrocodone. I feel wretched and fuzzy, though it's helping with the pain. Today I can't just fall asleep the way I could previous days, which is boring.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
102

One interesting thing, that I've heard from people who do a lot of death penalty work (but don't have a study to cite or anything), is that gruesome crimes of the sort that often lead to the DP also have disproportionately high volumes of mistakes made by the cops, investigators, and prosecution. In instances of really serious crimes, everyone gets emotional, there is intense psychological pressure for a conviction, and people do what they ordinarily do in psychologically intense situations -- they fuck up. Thus, it's often not really the case that the worst crimes get the best investigation.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty because I think even horrible people should be given the chance to consciously atone for their crimes before death (i.e., I would absolutely extend the prohibition on the death penalty to Eichmann). Other than that, I don't really see much of a reason to be against it as a general matter, although that obviously doesn't extend to supporting the DP in any individual case.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
103

not to cross into Canada "if you've got any priors"

PLEEEEAASE DON'T THROW ME IN THAT PRIOR PATCH!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:12 AM
horizontal rule
104

I don't know how people get addicted to stuff like hydrocodone

Famous last words?

But seriously, hope you feel better soon.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:12 AM
horizontal rule
105

What I like about Buffalo is the P22 type foundry.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
106

103: You're one of the last people I'd expect to have a clergy fetish.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
107

105: Sure, if you're into that type thing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
108

I don't know how people get addicted to stuff like hydrocodone

I've got a Rx for Vicodin that I haven't filled. Apparently, root canals hurt and the fact that mine hasn't started to hurt yet doesn't mean it won't.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
109

Well, yeah, obviously people get addicted by finding it more pleasant than I do. And it's much, much more pleasant than the horrible morphine was in my last surgerey. I'm just not great with drugs. Also apparently not great with stopping bleeding, but I think another few days of rest should have me back to full strength.

It's veery frustrating how blurry everything is, which makes my typing bad and my thought process not s o great either.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
110

109: Did we mention that Sunny Wigs aced her audition and is now a regular cast member?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
111

96: There is some evidence that juveniles diagnosed with conduct disorder (psychopaths in the making) can be helped, but I was mostly thinking of hypothetical future developments.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:21 AM
horizontal rule
112
Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
113

108: Root canals themselves don't generally hurt. All of the nerves are dead and cleaned out in the procedure. Usually the problems come from the reason why you're having a root canal - like an abscess calling attention to the fact that one of your teeth has died. Those fucking hurt. (As anyone who remembers my whining from February can attest to.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:25 AM
horizontal rule
114

111: General Amnesty will be a Major Feature of the synchronicity.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:25 AM
horizontal rule
115

Sweet, those library books will be mine forever.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:26 AM
horizontal rule
116

113: My tooth hadn't died, so maybe I'll be good.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:27 AM
horizontal rule
117

115: But of course you won't need them anymore.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
118

I have leftover Vicodin from having wisdom teeth removed, and it's leftover (I never touched it) for a similar reason - the thing that hurt and made me get them yanked was so much worse than the yanking that there wasn't really much pain to deal with anymore. Opiates for the week *before* I got it, though, might have been smart.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
119

||
Right now your tax dollars are also at work stealing the personal papers and computers of half-a-dozen longtime peace & labor union activists.

http://tc.indymedia.org/

Stupid Fibbies and their illegal fishing expeditions.

||>

The question for me, about the death penalty, is not "Did Adolf Eichmann deserve to die for his crimes?" But rather "Do I trust the government to adequately determine the answer to that question and implement its decision fairly?" And the answer to that is pretty much always going to be "No."

I mean, look at Saddam Hussein. Pretty bad guy, totally not sorry he's dead, but his execution was the result of a kangaroo court that was designed to elide a lot of the political questions that his prosecution brought up, and to shield other guilty parties from justice.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
120

110: I saw that! Glad I could make the introduction!

Eggplant, In my experience (reading profiles of kids in foster care and eligible for adoption) Conduct Disorder is not being applied in consistent enough ways to make helpful generalizations about how kids with the diagnosis fare.

As I've said before, I'm a pacifict and my opposition to the death penalty is closely related to that. In a few weeks, though, I'll be in the courtroom while our former foster son Rowan testifies against one of his abusers (his former adoptive father) in what the investigating detective said was the worst abuse case she'd ever dealt with. I know how I've responded emotionally to the people who've hurt me, but I'm curious to know what my response will be to someone who's hurt someone I do think of as my child.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
121

113: My tooth hadn't died, so maybe I'll be good.

Did you go to an Ethodontist?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:30 AM
horizontal rule
122

Conduct Disorder

I love those old Puritan names.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
123

I don't know how people get addicted to stuff like hydrocodone

I understand all of those words individually, but when you put them together in that order, it's like you're talking some crazy moon-man language. Enough Vicodin is like a bus pass to Happyfloatingland.

Also, my one root canal wasn't even a tiny bit painful, aside from the pain of holding my mouth wide open for the length of time it took to finish it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:34 AM
horizontal rule
124

People like me. Simple as that.


Posted by: Vic Odin | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:35 AM
horizontal rule
125

123: Vicodin makes me woozy and ill, too, but CA would pretty much take it for fun. (Valium is a HappyFloatingLand service provider for me. I bought an enormous box of it when I was somewhere it was OTC and it probably went away faster than it ought.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
126

118 was my exact experience with my wisdom teeth as well. (I, like Moby, skipped the dentist for 10 years. With much worse results.)

And Moby, if you're not yet experiencing pain and didn't have much before, it's my highly unqualified opinion that you probably won't.

I'd say something about the death penalty but everything I would say has been said already. (Against. I can see how in a perfect world it might be just but we simply don't live in that world, etc.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
127

So everybody feel free to mail me all the neglected Vicodin you've got lying around the house. I run an abandoned pharmaceutical rescue shelter.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
128

121: That's the most obscure pun I've seen in a long while.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
129

The author of 122 deserves recognition and praise, and the subject of 122 has been added to the cast for a trial run.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
130

124: Me too.


Posted by: Sally Forth^h^h^h^hields | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:39 AM
horizontal rule
131

pain of holding my mouth wide open for the length of time it took to finish

You just need more practice, Apo. I'm sure there's some willing volunteers.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:41 AM
horizontal rule
132

Vicodin makes me woozy and ill, too,

I think a fair number of people are somewhat to severely allergic (or something like that) to opiates. My brother, for example, can't undergo standard anaesthesia without ending up horribly gut-wrenchingly ill for several days.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:43 AM
horizontal rule
133

131: I was waiting for someone to make that joke. Well done, Paren!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:45 AM
horizontal rule
134

Vic Odin sounds like the name of a 50s TV wrestler. Saturday Night Special: Vic Odin vs. Gorgeous George.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:52 AM
horizontal rule
135

108: I've had several root canals done recently, none hurt at all after the injected 'caine wore off. I've filled all the Vikes Rx just to have them around in case one of these threads gets too depressing.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:52 AM
horizontal rule
136

I can see how in a perfect world it might be just but we simply don't live in that world, etc

People keep on saying this.

Why would we need or want the death penalty in a perfect world?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:52 AM
horizontal rule
137

Afer my wife and I had our exciting kidney donation/transplant surgeries we were home together in bed for a few weeks with a whole lot of vicodin (just like a honeymoon! Except for the gaping wounds in our bellies!). We tried getting high together, an experience we had somehow missed back in the 80s. I found the vicodin high rather unexciting and gave her my supply, which she enjoyed over several more weeks. I figured it was the least I could do, considering that after all she had just given me a kidney.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:55 AM
horizontal rule
138

86: FWIW, the people I know in capital mitigation --that's social workers, not attorneys--are really smart and hard-working. (It pays way more than most other things you can do as a social worker.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:55 AM
horizontal rule
139

Why would we need or want the death penalty in a perfect world

There's bound to be some heretics, and voting them off the island isn't as much fun.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:55 AM
horizontal rule
140

The question for me, about the death penalty, is ... "Do I trust the government to adequately determine the answer to that question and implement its decision fairly?" And the answer to that is pretty much always going to be "No."

That says it for me. Got there because of the recent DNA reversals, OJ, Watergate, ad nauseam.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:56 AM
horizontal rule
141

Why would we need or want the death penalty in a perfect world?

The perfect world has just the right amount of marmolated stink bugs, and when they reproduce beyond that number, we send in the Stomping Moby.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:57 AM
horizontal rule
142

137: Seems like a kidney would be worth a whole lot more than a few weeks' worth of Vicodin. Your wife isn't much of a bargain hunter, is she?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:58 AM
horizontal rule
143

133: Someone had to do it.

136: When I say that (don't know about others), I don't mean a truly perfect world, just one where you could actually be assured of knowing whether someone was truly guilty, etc. But even then I'm pretty hesitant to say the death penalty is the right answer.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:59 AM
horizontal rule
144

141: The news said stink bugs had no natural enemies. The obvious solution is a naturalized enemy, but I think maybe we should figure birds or spiders will fill that role. I can't do it alone.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:00 PM
horizontal rule
145

The obvious solution is a naturalized enemy

Or a supernatural enemy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
146

Wow, everyone's talking about stink bugs. Someone just brought up stink bugs IRL. I'm told there's some kind of bird that likes to eat them. Maybe Moby should give lock some of those birds in his house. I can't imagine a downside.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
147

I'm told there's some kind of bird that likes to eat them.

Maybe the stinkbird.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:05 PM
horizontal rule
148

146: Yeah, it really is becoming a thing. Penn State stink bug site traffic over the last week. Full article including PA map and state breakdown of visitors--I think we're stink bug central. We have all of our drapes off the windows and books and other items moved away form the south wall of the house. They do make a satisfying little "thunk" when you vacuum them up.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:14 PM
horizontal rule
149

142: Not hardly. But I also gave her dibs on which side of the bed, so she could see the tv much better during the recovery period.

OK, and a trip to Petit St Vincent, and a few baubles. But overall she definitely got the worse deal.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:14 PM
horizontal rule
150

Unimaginative, you've written this up in a really charming way. In a perfect world where Modern Love wasn't wretched, you'd be a shoo-in!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:18 PM
horizontal rule
151

150: "I thought I was just getting a kidney, but what I really got was love."

(That's just to start things off. I'm sure the fogged polloged can come up with better.)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:21 PM
horizontal rule
152

|| Aw. Chicago is renaming the Lakeview post office after Steve Goodman. |>


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:22 PM
horizontal rule
153

CA would die if I gave him a kidney. That wouldn't be very nice of me. But if anyone here is B-, nous consulter.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
154

They do make a satisfying little "thunk" when you vacuum them up.

So who will be the first to revive the "Sure Fire Stink Bug Killer"? scam


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:30 PM
horizontal rule
155

Does he have renal disease, or are you just collecting?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:31 PM
horizontal rule
156

155: No, I was asking for bids.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:32 PM
horizontal rule
157

156: Let's just go to Candy Mountain instead.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:38 PM
horizontal rule
158

Having an octogenarian in jail for a crime committed 40-60 years earlier is stupid. I'm not just anti-DP, but also anti-LWP.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:39 PM
horizontal rule
159

Few people know that you can grow a whole kidney from a simple kidney bean. This is why all the Obamacare opponents are concerned about "bean counters". Facts.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
160

157: I should have included a link.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
161

CA would die if I gave him a kidney.

Then you could mail me his Vicodin!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
162

151: I met a guy who has a much better Modern Love story. He received a kidney trnasplant from his wife when he was in his twenties. A few decades later they divorced and he remarried. Then when her kidney started to fail, as typically occurs after about twenty years, he received his second kidney transplant from his second wife.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:04 PM
horizontal rule
163

162: Let's hear it for serial monogamy!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:06 PM
horizontal rule
164

162: The title of the ML could be "Organ? Free, man."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:06 PM
horizontal rule
165

By the way, can the comedy writing team here come up with a good one liner for me to use when someone asks if anyone needs a bathroom break? "I'll check with my wife, it's her kidney" is all I've got.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:08 PM
horizontal rule
166

165: "No, soap radio".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:08 PM
horizontal rule
167

162, 163: Then 20 years later his third wife wakes up in a bathtub full of ice with "Welcome to the world of Modern Love" spelled out in urine on the bathroom rug.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
168

157, 160: Damn you, M/tch -- my niece showed my kids that, and now they drift around all day murmuring in weird blissed-out voices "We're on a bridge, Charlie!" "It's beautiful and magical!" I am overcome by waves of annoyance.

162: That's so romantic. Has he got number three lined up yet?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
169

when her kidney started to fail, as typically occurs

I hope you guys made enough donor kids to take care of this.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
170

162: "I could tell our marriage was falling apart, and I couldn't help wondering if my kidney would soon do the same, or if it was only my heart that was breaking."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
171

168: I don't know why you're damning me, LB. I have no control over your niece.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
172

Yet.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
173

165: Bare the scar and say, "Break this, motherfucker!"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
174

171: You reminded me of it. I thought I was safe at work.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:17 PM
horizontal rule
175

165: I don't know about the bathroom break joke, but there's a "urine side me now" joke to be made.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:17 PM
horizontal rule
176

174: You know who else thought he was safe? Charlie, that's who. Just sayin'.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:18 PM
horizontal rule
177

165: Are you in IP law perchance?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:23 PM
horizontal rule
178

|| Am I being unreasonable to be annoyed at this generally favorable review over the facile way in which he treats Taliban cooks, medics, and other schmoes? |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:26 PM
horizontal rule
179

174 to 165.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:30 PM
horizontal rule
180

a good one liner for me to use when someone asks if anyone needs a bathroom break?

Less in a funny-haha and more in a funny-odd direction, you could say, "I'll pass," and then hand the interlocutor a kidney stone*.

*requires ready supply of kidney stones.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:37 PM
horizontal rule
181

169: Apparently it's bad form to inquire about blood type when the adoption agency finally gets back to you. Who knew?


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 1:46 PM
horizontal rule
182

I thought I was safe at work.

Woo hoo, LB is NSFW! Do you work at the no pants law firm or something?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:01 PM
horizontal rule
183

no pants law firm

Many firms are dedicated to helping their clients skirt the law.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:04 PM
horizontal rule
184

183: And many are dedicated to suing the pants off you.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:06 PM
horizontal rule
185

I find I'm upsettingly fencey about the DP. It puts me in questionable company, or near it--I'm still weakly anti-, if I had to vote on it. But, hey, if I fell off the fence into pro-DP territory, it'd make for a satisfying kind of consistency.

Ogged, on the other hand, seemed pretty clear that DP was crossing a line that made someone undateable.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:12 PM
horizontal rule
186

The idea that the death penalty is necessary and/or justified by the existence of truly depraved monsters (Eichmann, Manson, etc.) seems to be really missing the point. (No one here is saying that as far as I can see, but I assume a lot of the support for it comes from people who do think that way. It's more optimistic than assuming that they all genuinely want a medieval law code.) The idea that justice is served by killing someone needs far more support, the role of government is so often explicitly not meting out justice that black swan events seem like a particularly bad place to expect it, and as for execution in the name of public safety, the excluded middle between "kill them" and "let them go" is so huge that I can't believe the people ignoring it are doing so by accident.

67: Sure, you can always come up with a logic under which the present system is the worst of all possible worlds when it's objectively pretty bad. The floor is always bloodiest in your own crime scene, or something.

94
I sometimes wonder how our approach towards criminals should change as we become better at diagnosing and treating various antisocial personality disorders.

Too lazy to track down the link, but I'm pretty sure Ezra Klein had a post on his blog (at least a year or two ago now) about how everyone knows about our mushrooming prison, but that actually just hides another worrying trend. If you look at an overall graph of the overall legally involuntarily restrained population - that is, imprisoned plus committed to a mental institution - it was almost perfectly steady for a century, but in the 1980s, around when the prison population began growing exponentially, the population of people in mental institutions began plummeting.

But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
187

I didn't read all the way through, Cyrus, but this article was written at the time:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/4/1/75.pdf


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
188

Speaking of death, who's up for a date at an autopsy?

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/sexting_wisconsin_da_also_invited_a_date_to_an_aut.php


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:24 PM
horizontal rule
189

Ogged, on the other hand, seemed pretty clear that DP was crossing a line that made someone undateable.

Ogged had ideosyncratic views about criminal punishment.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:38 PM
horizontal rule
190

||

Ack! Stink bug keeps buzzing my head while I'm at my desk!

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
191

Really? I've never seen one move except at a slow walk.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:52 PM
horizontal rule
192

Once, I remember an infestation of june bugs. There were hundreds of them coating the outside of the screen door. We had a new puppy who would eat them until he puked and then go eat some more.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 2:54 PM
horizontal rule
193

Speaking of death, who's up for a date at an autopsy?

It's almost like contemporary Americans sublimate their fear of death into superstitious fancies about sex or something.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:00 PM
horizontal rule
194

Ogged had ideosyncratic views about criminal punishment.

I was thinking of this.

http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_4410.html#122222


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:07 PM
horizontal rule
195

Update! I've taken the stink bug outside and liberated it in the nearby woods, so that my coworkers know that I'm a person who handles crisis moments with calm and aplomb and not by getting all shouty.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:12 PM
horizontal rule
196

188, 193: There used to be a tradition in Pittsburgh of visiting the morgue on prom night.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:13 PM
horizontal rule
197

Ack! Stink bug keeps buzzing my head while I'm at my desk!

Weird. Like Moby, I'm used to them just kind of calmly hanging around and waiting for me to dispose of them. (Though the person who was complaining about them earlier tells me that if many of them congregate in one place, they get feisty.) I used to have a different, non-marmorated kind of stink bug invade my apartment when I lived in Ith/aca and they were much livelier.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:15 PM
horizontal rule
198

There used to be a tradition in Pittsburgh of visiting the morgue on prom night.

Was that a "scared straight" "Bloody Pavement" don't drink and drive, kids, thing, or is Pittsburgh home to more zombies than I realized?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:17 PM
horizontal rule
199

195: So Poised Flopdick instead of Shouty Flopdick.

Lay ... deez.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:17 PM
horizontal rule
200

198: No idea, just learned about it from a Rick Sebak documentary.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:20 PM
horizontal rule
201

186: Maybe it's just people in my field, but in New York it seems to be understood that deinstitutionalization was put into practice without sufficient foresight and the city filled up with mentally ill homeless people. Where do they end up? In prison.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:21 PM
horizontal rule
202

201. IIRC, there was a civil liberties aspect to deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill. Plus there were new drugs that they could take to stop the voices. Of course, when one stops hearing the voices, why take the pills? Add to that the "cost savings" of shutting down all the snake pits, et voila! Throw in the war on some drugs, for profit prisons and prison guard union campaign contributions, what could go wrong?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:29 PM
horizontal rule
203

||
A "surely there most be someone on Unfogged who's dealt with this" bleg:

Anyone installed a window pet door? Something like this, perhaps?

Any recommendations, advice, dire warnings?
|>


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 3:54 PM
horizontal rule
204

dire warnings

Don't try to use the newly installed dog door yourself.

http://www.snopes.com/embarrass/buff/burpus.asp


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:00 PM
horizontal rule
205

It's for our cats, speciesist.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:03 PM
horizontal rule
206

But good tip anyway. Thanks!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:03 PM
horizontal rule
207

We had one in a door and the cats seemed to enjoy it (though they were indoor-only and merely using this for litterbox access) but I don't know about window versions.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:07 PM
horizontal rule
208

We definitely want one of some kind so the cats can go out on the deck, but I thought we were going to have to cut a hole in the wall or buy a new door (the current one being glass). The idea of a window version is extremely appealing.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:12 PM
horizontal rule
209

You need one of these.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:20 PM
horizontal rule
210

203: We had one for a while (came with the house). It was nice to not have to let them in and out, but our one hunting cat brought too much dead/semi-dead stuff in. After I tore half the kitchen apart trying to find a dead mouse that was stinking to high heaven (turned out it had crawled up into the refrigerator to die) we closed it up. If not for that we would have kept it.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:21 PM
horizontal rule
211

201: I was in the same field, but that was considered common knowledge 15 years ago.

202: Civil liberties plus cost savings was the combination. It was a bit more complex than that because of the history of who paid for what. State governments had always paid for long term mental hospitalization so when the feds came in with Medicaid, they refused to pay for it. So, discharging somebody from a state hospital takes them from bill of the great state of whatever and puts it on Uncle Sam (or much of it).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:21 PM
horizontal rule
212

210 to 209.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:24 PM
horizontal rule
213

but our one hunting cat brought too much dead/semi-dead stuff in

You need one of these.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:26 PM
horizontal rule
214

198: No idea, just learned about it from a Rick Sebak documentary.

For another documentary about prom night, I enjoyed this movie. It's very slight, but charming.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:31 PM
horizontal rule
215

Have a patio dog door, easily installed. Dogs loved it. Not currently used

Two problems, possibly related.

1) Drafts. Good magnets don't really help since, as the pictures show, dogs like to go halfway thru and look around. Expensive in Texas summer.

2) Dogs bang back legs & knees against bottom as they run full speed out to attack the falling leaf. Hacksaw might help, but not full answer.

Recommend cloth covering in (curtains) and out to slow dogs down, and maybe a outside cardboard box tunnel (e.g., carpeted pvc might work) to reduce drafts.

May not be pertinent to cat window flaps. Is access, ramps, gonna be provided? I think a cat might love a carpeted PVC tunnel.

Cat window flaps not recommended for high rise apartments.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:32 PM
horizontal rule
216

A couple friends of mine had a falling-out after one broke into the other's house while she was out of town, by crawling in through the pet door. It was funny(-ish) at first, but then he did it again and again, and the permutations got more disturbing -- I think on one occasion he crawled in through the pet door and walked out through the front door, leaving it unlocked, and then drove home, passed out, and forgot all about it. So you should make sure that your friends are bigger than your cat door.

A stink bug just landed on my chair.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:33 PM
horizontal rule
217

So you should make sure that your friends are bigger than your cat door.

Befriend who you wish and feed them until they don't fit through the cat door.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:35 PM
horizontal rule
218

Cat window flaps not recommended for high rise apartments.

Stupid YouTube has nothing related to this, so if you are going to make a horrible mistake, get a camera.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:40 PM
horizontal rule
219

Dogs bang back legs & knees against bottom as they run full speed out to attack the falling leaf. Hacksaw might help, but not full answer.

Yeah, you need to attach the wheels as well.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:43 PM
horizontal rule
220

A stink bug just landed on my chair.

This should be the new "and then I found five dollars".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:48 PM
horizontal rule
221

I think a cat might love a carpeted PVC tunnel.

I say go full monty. Something like this, scaled-up for a cat.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:49 PM
horizontal rule
222

You need a catio.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:55 PM
horizontal rule
223

Cat window flaps not recommended for high rise apartments.

If I lived in a high-rise, I'd want to install one of these, and then the cat could spend all day scratching at the glass floor trying to get at the antlike creatures moving around below.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 4:58 PM
horizontal rule
224

I remember reading an article about a guy who managed to put his head and one arm through a pet door and was strangled to death. People familiar with submission grappling will recognize this as a triangle choke, where one carotid is occluded by the victim's shoulder and the other by someone else's arm, leg, or door frame. Now google reveals nontrace of this.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:23 PM
horizontal rule
225

225: This one?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:25 PM
horizontal rule
226

On cat doors, our experience was much like JP's: too many dead things being brought into the house. Or alive-and-squirming things brought in to be released for fun and games, and our having to intervene. Also, the draft problem.

If it's just to go to a deck (without access to the ground?), or if the cats aren't hunter types, that's a different matter.

Despite the annoyance of being door servant to the cats once we got rid of the cat door, I kind of preferred having a vague awareness of where they were (in or out) at any given time.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 5:38 PM
horizontal rule
227

225: That's the one! Your google-fu is stronger than mine.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:01 PM
horizontal rule
228

||

189, 194: Y'know, 2005 was really kind of an optimal year for unfogged posting and commenting, wasn't it? Judging by the number of linked posts to that era I've read.

(/meta)

|>


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
229

I put a cat door into our master bedroom. The critters can use the pans in "their" room, go downstairs to chatter at the hummingbirds, chase each other through it, and set ambushes, all while we keep the expensive cold air in the bedroom and the connected computer room. It's worked out nicely.

IMX doors to the outside in Alabama invited interesting visitors, like a seriously pissed-off 'possum in one's kitchen. Not good.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:40 PM
horizontal rule
230

229.2 just answered precisely the question I wanted to ask. Little point in my even bothering to comment (or read full threads) anymore.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
231

I didn't think you had a cat, or cats, Di.

I don't recall our having a problem with critters discovering the cat door, but you trade on a sort of trust when you have indoor/outdoor cats in a critter environment, that they will respect one another's space. Worked out for the most part.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:11 PM
horizontal rule
232

231: Check the closet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
233

Moby has a cat door in his tooth, now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:22 PM
horizontal rule
234

People familiar with submission grappling will recognize this as a triangle choke, where one carotid is occluded by the victim's shoulder and the other by someone else's arm, leg, or door frame.

I'm scared of Eggplant.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:55 PM
horizontal rule
235

||
Does anyone watch Bored to Death? I think I like it, but everytime I watch it I happen to be intoxicated, and I find the biochemical and televisual effects hard to disentangle, so perhaps I merely think I like it.
|>


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 7:56 PM
horizontal rule
236

234 to 235.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:00 PM
horizontal rule
237

234: Eggplant is familiar with many things but competent in few. This disparity is exceeded by his timidity which, in turn, is exceeded by his harmlessness.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
238

229: I'm not too worried 'bout 'possum. We're going to lock it at night; we keep the cats inside after dark on account of 'possum, not to mention coyote.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
239

Sir Kraab finds it difficult to trust nightshades who speak of themselves in the third person.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:09 PM
horizontal rule
240

Stanley finds it difficult to trust knighted crustaceans who speak of themselves in the third person.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
241

Nightshade relatives. The alkaloids do get to one's speech centers though, eventually.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
242

240: Sir Kraab is nobility: they're allowed.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:15 PM
horizontal rule
243

We approve of 242.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
244

Not scared anymore? I could be the Dogberry to your Sexton.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
245

I always pictured you as more of a Dogbert.

(Lie: inasmuch as I picture you, it's as a cartoony eggplant. And this makes me feel a bit queasy about disclosing what I just ate.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:25 PM
horizontal rule
246

What. Did. You. Eat?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:27 PM
horizontal rule
247

It might have been a relative of yours, I suppose. Kids, don't use drugs! This moment brougt to you by Vicodin Madness!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
248

It wasn't Nightshade, was it? Don't fuck with that guy.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:32 PM
horizontal rule
249

No, thankfully. I do still have some judgment.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
250

||

While googling for a really lame joke-- I came across this uterus recall from 2008 (a plush uterus recall).

Small part choking hazard
The ovaries may be pulled off and become a choking hazard.
Keep away from children.
||


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
251

250: Yes, but what was the lame joke?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
252

Yo' mama Too soon!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
253

Mandrake? Jimson?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:42 PM
horizontal rule
254

Real nice Eggplant--foods of the patriarchy!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
255

Hmm, maybe it's best to go right to sleep after taking the sleep aid medicine.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:46 PM
horizontal rule
256

I did err in ascribing masculinity to belladonna.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
257

Pooootaaaaaatoooooooe!!


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
258

I had eggplant and roasted red pepper in a tortilla with hummus. It wasn't at all what I'd been craving but it was tasty.

And Stormcrow, don't leave us hanging on the joke! I could use some uterus humor, I think.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
259

253: I forget. Is that the code to kill the hostage or free him?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:49 PM
horizontal rule
260

Did you mix baba and hummus? I thought that wasn't allowed.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:51 PM
horizontal rule
261

+ganoush


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
262

some uterus humor

So, a uterus, a kidney, and a duodenum walk into a bar, and the bartender says, "What is this, a joke?!"


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
263

There was no tahini in the eggplant, so I think it's fair game. I just had my partner throw an eggplant on the grill the other night so I could use it to supplement various meals.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:53 PM
horizontal rule
264

257: Eggplant is Dan Quaaaaayle? That makes two Quayles on Unfogged now.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:53 PM
horizontal rule
265

258.2: Well it did not really come together as anything but juvenile, stupid and gross, but for 245.2 if you remove the choking hazard parts and their attaching tubes, what internal organ most looks like an eggplant?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
266

Godammit. The irony? I could go for some extra e this evening, and I just wasted it. Now, where is that knife...


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 8:56 PM
horizontal rule
267

266: I could go for some extra e this evening,

You going to go mug a dealer?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:00 PM
horizontal rule
268

Forget the joke, I think Stormcrow's stumbled across a likely anniversary present for unimaginative's wife.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:00 PM
horizontal rule
269

268: Original 2" x 2.5" ink and colored pencil drawing

And only $100!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
270

269: Yeah, but it's unimaginative. Just sayin'...


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
271

A uterus, an eggplant and a dead dog walk into a bar. Bartender says, "It's the plumber!".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
272

270: but it's unimaginative

And you could do better?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
273

Animal Planet is showing a bunch of good ol' boys taking city slicker women out to catch fish with their bare hands. I'm not sure I can do it justice, so I won't describe it further.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
274

I didn't realize Paul Feig directed this episode. I love that guy.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
275

48

I find it hard to imagine anyone being deterred from a crime by the death penalty and not a life sentence, but I suppose there might be some psychological element like finality that makes a difference.

IIRC there have been studies purporting to show drops in crime after widely publicized executions. I don't recall them as being terribly convincing but such an effect seems vaguely plausible. Personally I tend to drive a bit slower if I see someone else has been stopped.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
276

189, 194: Y'know, 2005 was really kind of an optimal year for unfogged posting and commenting, wasn't it?

I actually thought that the thread linked in 194 was a good cure for excess nostalgia over that era of unfogged. Reading a bit of it I remembered it seeming like an awkward thread at the time and reading more of it made me think that there really are ways in which the current unfogged is better.

But, yes, 2005 probably was a good time for unfogged, considering that Ogged quit (for the first time) at the beginning of 2006.

Reading that linked thread also reminded me that, even when he wasn't at the top of his game, the ogged personality really was such a remarkably good fit for the medium of blogging.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
277

Uh, that was in following 235, not to 273. Although I would like to see what Feig could do with Meerkat Manor.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
278

Everybody but me knows about "Hillbilly Handfishin'?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
279

Shearer: based on previous comments you've made, I'd have bet that you'd be against the death penalty simply because it costs the taxpayers more than would life without parole.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
280

Then nevermind 278.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
281

277 to 274
275: The question would be is there a comparable effect if similar publicity is given to long prison sentences.
276.last: It's sad he'll go the rest of his life not using his god-given talent: Bitch baiting.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:26 PM
horizontal rule
282

The stories about the case say a judge decided the sentence. IANAL but I though juries decided this in a penalty phase of the trial. Is this wrong?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
283

278: I assume it's similar to this?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:29 PM
horizontal rule
284

283: Except they use a small piece of cord for putting in the fish mouth. And most of the footage is of women standing neck deep in opaque water going, "What just brushed my leg?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:35 PM
horizontal rule
285

Warning! Keep children out of uterus! Choking hazard!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:36 PM
horizontal rule
286

279

Shearer: based on previous comments you've made, I'd have bet that you'd be against the death penalty simply because it costs the taxpayers more than would life without parole.

Actually it appears I am the only commenter in favor of the death penalty.

I don't find the cost argument all that convincing. The death penalty is expensive because it is a lightning rod for liberal do-gooders. However if there were no death penalty they would probably be whining about something else, perhaps something important. As it is the death penalty has encouraged liberal politicians to balance their opposition with other more substantively important tough on crime measures. So in this way it is serving a useful purpose.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 9:59 PM
horizontal rule
287

281

The question would be is there a comparable effect if similar publicity is given to long prison sentences.

Similar publicity is not possible as the death penalty is carried out at a definite time and life in prison is not. The purported drop occured after executions not after sentencing.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:07 PM
horizontal rule
288

What if we just said we were executing people and really we sent them to live on a farm in the county?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:19 PM
horizontal rule
289

A farm that grows eggplants.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
290

But is too far to visit. Just know that your serial killer has a big open field to play in.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:24 PM
horizontal rule
291

Highly publicized mock executions is the answer. The defendants, after being relieved to learn, off camera, that they had merely been given quick acting anesthetics, would be offered opportunities to use whatever skills they had acquired in covert government services. Gacy could have lived out his life performing at CIA birthday parties.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:25 PM
horizontal rule
292

Huh. I did not see that pwning coming. Someone must pay.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:26 PM
horizontal rule
293

In fairness, I seem to be attempting to post on Dufogged.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:33 PM
horizontal rule
294

286: The death penalty is expensive because it is a lightning rod for liberal do-gooders.

Well then, seems like there's a pretty obvious, kill-two-birds-with-one-stone solution here, doesn't there?

Pour encourager les autres and all that, what what?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:38 PM
horizontal rule
295

Does lorazepam have an expiration date? Or are the 'zepams like MREs and twinkles. Everything else was of recent vintage, including, unfortunately, the Shiraz.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:40 PM
horizontal rule
296

I think I need to go to bed.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:42 PM
horizontal rule
297

Twinkies have a relatively quick expiration date.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:45 PM
horizontal rule
298

288

What if we just said we were executing people and really we sent them to live on a farm in the county?

Alternatively we could say we were sending them to prison without the right of correspondence .


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:47 PM
horizontal rule
299

That's what they said in Zombieland. Do you believe everything you see in zom-coms?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:48 PM
horizontal rule
300

298: We already do that, actually. They're called "Communication Management Units" and they exist in at least two federal prisons so far. Of course, you get a little bit of a Catch-22 there, because people in CMUs aren't allowed to tell you that they're in a CMU.

At some point however, the "CMU" name has to be changed, as it is too obvious. Perhaps in the future they will be called "Paperwork Reduction Wings" or something along those lines.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:52 PM
horizontal rule
301

299 to 297. I don't know Zombieland's position on capital punishment. They would have to deal with increased fears of prison insecurity, and the possibility that any executions would further endanger the viability of the remaining human breeding population.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
302

most drugs last a long time, and even if its sort of gonem 80% of the original o so is still a lot

it helps tp keep them cool.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
303

301: Not to mention the inevitable cry for civil rights from the Million Man Lurch.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 10:59 PM
horizontal rule
304

Drugs don't make you cool. Being yourself in such a way that you aren't top different from everybody else makes you cool.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:00 PM
horizontal rule
305

"too different"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:02 PM
horizontal rule
306

Being a top doesn't make you cool, Moby. Getting good consent from a bottom makes you cool.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-24-10 11:06 PM
horizontal rule
307

drug DO make you high though. much more reliably than most anything makes you cool. Drugs, they are as workmanlike as the death & taxes, the rising of the sun.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 12:17 AM
horizontal rule
308

death penalty sees like the bullshit symbolic issue. probably better, in a paternalistic way, they letting someone live out life in jail.

on a better note, i fot an rather absurdly large raise today i drank a lot of ogod whiskey.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 12:22 AM
horizontal rule
309

ogod whiskey

Whiskey so good, you'll take the Lord's name in vain.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 12:50 AM
horizontal rule
310

Did you drink the whiskey before or after you fought the absurdly large raise?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 1:16 AM
horizontal rule
311

I fought a raise this week. It was small enough that I'm ashamed I punched it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 5:00 AM
horizontal rule
312

|| The left click dealio on my laptop is working maybe 5-10% of the time, randomly. Right is fine. Is there an easy fix of some kind?|>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 7:20 AM
horizontal rule
313

External mouse?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 7:27 AM
horizontal rule
314

Switch to a left-handed configuration, which will swap the right and left buttons? (I'm not sure if that's possible on a laptop, but maybe?)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
315

Do you have any canned air you could hit it with? It may just be dust on the contact underneath the button.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
316

315 sounds promising. 314 sounds less useful than my advice, which I considered pointless but put up anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
317

If nothing else, 314 may have reminded CC of a time-honored office prank.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
318

it is a well-known fact that for the most part the pain eats up the high. if you are in serious physical pain, not a drug addict, and you take morphine, you are likely to get some of the woozy effects and have the pain (mostly) go away. you are unlikely to get high, the truthiness of yoyo's point and the fears of asshole dea people notwithstanding. proper pain management often requires the administration of ever-huger doses of serious shit, as the patients gain a tolerance to the drug. this isn't the same as addiction, though. you want to see what it's like, save a few percodan for later when you're not in any pain, and try it out. imo weakass shit like vicodin makes me have all the bad effects (puking, miserable) without the good effects. when you're actually high on opiates, you still might be puking, but you just don't give a fuck or perceive it as that unpleasant. save the valium for later to wash down with some cold white wine, for when shit is freaking you out.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
319

I totally surrender in the "giving bad advice" contest.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
320

318 is interesting. My friend, who beat a vicodin addiction years ago (and got sober somewhat fewer years ago) just had surgey and they put her on morphine in the hospital and lortab after she went home. I was curious how much of a risk that was -- though it seemed obvious enough you can't just leave someone in pain.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
321

the ideal thing is that your doctor and the anaesthesiologist know that you have been an addict in the past. ideally this would make them give you high doses because of your latent tolerance, but just as often it makes them freak out and send you home with tylenol, like a little bitch. and you are supposed to talk to your sponsor and everything during the process.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:04 AM
horizontal rule
322

She's btw sponsors at the moment, but pretty religious about getting to her AA meetings. (She only just started with AA a few months ago after years of go-it-alone sobriety.) Not my job to worry, I know. But my nature...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:22 AM
horizontal rule
323

322: We'll know whose fault it is Di. (Too soon?)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
324

Heh. No, I was just about to add that my worry is actually sort of selfish, because I know if she falls back into addiction I will wind up abandoning her. Because I am twisted and depraved, or whatever the phrase is.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:41 AM
horizontal rule
325

Degenerate, I think.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:48 AM
horizontal rule
326

And twisted should be horrible.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
327

BTW, Ed Miliband is going to be history's greatest monster. Obama won't know what hit him.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:59 AM
horizontal rule
328

But other than that, I got it exactly right.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 11:07 AM
horizontal rule
329

||

A shipment of computer laptops to Iraq was part of the American military's mission to win hearts and minds, but the good intentions were mugged by Iraq's reality.

Don't you just love how we Americans always cast our country as a babe in the woods? Every war, every presidential scandal, the country "loses its innocence" like clockwork.

|>


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 11:49 AM
horizontal rule
330

278 Burkhard Bilger wrote a book about strange things that happen in the American south and the chapter that gives the book its name is "Noodling for Flatheads" about what sounds like the same thing.

Unrelated: do you have to read the entire fucking archive to get why Ogged is invoked in the way he is (supposing you are post-Ogged) or are there select threads that will do the trick?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 1:43 PM
horizontal rule
331

Noodling for Flatheads

Crap. That was going to be the title of my forthcoming guide to fornication directed at Herman Munster.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 1:49 PM
horizontal rule
332

do you have to read the entire fucking archive to get why Ogged is invoked in the way he is (supposing you are post-Ogged) or are there select threads that will do the trick?

FTFY. And yes.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
333

330. Search for Jessica Biel.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 1:59 PM
horizontal rule
334

330.2: start here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 2:07 PM
horizontal rule
335

To be honest, I don't see how abolishing the death penalty would help that much in correcting for unfairnesses in the system. Life without parole seems almost equally bad, and after a few decades it's just about as irreversible as an execution. To put it another way, if there's a strong enough case to lock someone up for life, then I'd say there's a strong enough case to execute them.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 2:47 PM
horizontal rule
336

Sorry, I didn't say my last sentence right. What I meant was, the kind of procedural safeguards you would need to feel confident about a death sentence also seem necessary for sentencing someone to life in prison.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
337

Hmm, in casting about for some good Ogged material* I came across this post on WFMU's Beware of the Blog which quoted two different comments (b, uncredited, and "Unfogged's Timothy Burke") from an Unfogged thread (NPR slagfest) two years earlier.

*This is a nice succinct one--with a long thread confronting ogged including classic ogged/bitchphd action with LB pitching in a lot, Who hurts worse? I think this is time for everyone to join hands and repeat "Patriarchy hurts everybody."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 3:13 PM
horizontal rule
338

I'm inordinately amused by LB's discussion of lips as composed of concave-up or concave-down segments in the thread linked in 337.2.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 4:41 PM
horizontal rule
339

To be fair, a great number of you hurt me back.


Posted by: The Patriarchy | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 4:41 PM
horizontal rule
340

212: Moby, let me tell you about medicaid rehab option hell.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 5:28 PM
horizontal rule
341

Whoops should be 211.

Anyway, basically the state cut back a lot of what they're willing to pay for in the community, though they do pay some. People living in a group home pay rent and a program fee out of their social security disability payments.

That doesn't cover the full cost. The state does give agencies some money for general stuff, but it doesn't pay extra for group home services.

There is a rehabilitation option where services designed to improve functioning and enhance skills, with the hope that some people may be discharged completely, are reimbursable under medicaid.

The paperwork is hell.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 5:32 PM
horizontal rule
342

The news related in 329 made me laugh my head off this afternoon; it took at least 2 minutes before I was able to segue to "fucking idiots."

330: why Ogged is invoked in the way he is

But ... in what way is he invoked (assuming you are post-Ogged)?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 5:33 PM
horizontal rule
343

OT: " One of the most evocative single verses of the Old Testament for me is Ecclesiastes 11.1, which in the King James version is translated 'Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.' I have no idea how close this is to the Hebrew 'שלח לחמך על פני המים כי ברב הימים תמצאנו׃' and I note with interest that while the original המים seems to just mean 'water', the Greek version has "on the surface of the water" (ἐπὶ πρόσωπον τοῦ ὕδατος) and the Latin "on the running waters" (super transeuntes aquas), and various translators have chosen to go with the Latin or Greek development of the original (rather than, as King James's team did, sticking to the original in this case). But we will never quite capture the meaning of the precious water, and the risky act of casting valuable foodstuffs onto it, to the parched agriculturalists of the 4th century before our era.

(And the unspeakable Good News Bible has 'Invest your money in foreign trade, and one of these days you will make a profit.' I kid you not.)"
http://nwhyte.livejournal.com/1538108.html


Posted by: David | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 5:34 PM
horizontal rule
344

337.last is one grim, arduous thread. Just saying.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 6:27 PM
horizontal rule
345

341: I never actually cared for anyone*, so I don't know what it looks like in the trenches. I have heard people who I was surprised to see pass a mini-mental exam go on to give more administrative details of their care plan than I could keep track of.

Back when I did research in that area, it was all the community population with SMD (i.e who would have been hospitalized in the past).

*in the sense of provided mental or physical health care.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
346

And the unspeakable Good News Bible has 'Invest your money in foreign trade, and one of these days you will make a profit.' I kid you not.'

What an abomination, and who is responsible for this travesty? But I am deeply suspicious of any translation which attempts to be "relevant," with the ambition of "reaching the next generation." O, the cheesiness...

James in 286: what a small, cramped soul you must have.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-25-10 10:10 PM
horizontal rule
347

Moby,

I know you didn't do direct care.

My 59 year-old chronically psychotic client does have a plan--to learn what some healthier foods are and to work on organizational skills for her room, but it's all kind of a joke.

She's been in the hospital plenty and was probably briefly institutionalized--certainly spent time in an intermediate care bed--and she's not going to step down from the level of care she's in now.

We do need to make sure that when she buys clothes that she likes she doesn't have so many that they clutter her room and make it a safety hazard. But I don't think she's gained the skill to do that herself.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 5:57 AM
horizontal rule
348

To understand ogged, I recommend reading his famous guest-posting stint at Washington Monthly.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
349

348: Thanks. But now I don't understand Washington Monthly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 3:20 PM
horizontal rule
350

OT: They now make Barbie dolls with built in video cameras. The lens is just high enough in the happy valley that Barbie could work in a office without some killjoy complaining to HR.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
351

Since this is where my vicodin thoughts have gone, I'll add that I'd been off it and using only the ibuprofin since Saturday morning so that I'd be in good shape to drive to work Monday. Then tonight I got some of the worst pain yet and decided to take an unprecedented two vicodins (per doctor's written orders) and while the pain is dulled but not gone, I haven't gotten any of the nasty haziness or serious stomach pain. Drugs are weird, basically.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
352

349: That was several years ago, when Drum was at Washington Monthly (now Benen is in his slot). At the time, the column was -- and actually still is -- for reportage rather than goading, which is what Ogged was doing by being circumspect. He was being Ogged, i.e. himself, but it didn't fit with the place.

The Washington Monthly folks are fine. Ogged is stubborn.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 5:33 PM
horizontal rule
353

352: My point, if I had one, was that I did not know they were ever interesting when it could be avoided.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
354

351: Feel better. I'm lucky and still have my unused Rx.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 5:50 PM
horizontal rule
355

The new Washington Monthly "blog" really is a disaster. It has all the objectivity of Nancy Pelosi's press releases combined with an incredibly irritating veneer of "Sigh. Yet again my opponents do something I would never in my wildest dreams have imagined that they would ever dare to do. How can anyone not be outraged by this? My opponents are yet again as wrong as possible about literally everything. Have they no shame?"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 5:53 PM
horizontal rule
356

355: Do you mean Benen's column?

If so, I somewhat know what you mean: it sometimes sounds like a never-ending exercise in (yes), "Sigh. Fucking Republicans. Assholes, or prevaricators, or dumbasses, or, you know."

That said, I read Benen pretty much daily -- he links to a great many things, which I consider a service -- and would be sad indeed were he not to write that column. So I wouldn't call it a disaster by any stretch of the imagination.

On second thought: what you describe doesn't really sound like Benen.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 6:04 PM
horizontal rule
357

For myself, I don't think I've read anything in Washington Monthly in several years. It could have changed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
358

For what it's worth: if this place has spent its energy, there is some to be found at Obsidian Wings, where there are some new front-pagers added. Gary Farber indeed!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 6:50 PM
horizontal rule
359

They added Gary? Good. Huh. I guess I'll have to read it now.

max
['Fun.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
360

Ogged links! Wow, was it really just 3 years ago that he still posted here? Seems like another lifetime.


Posted by: spaz | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 7:02 PM
horizontal rule
361

359: Yeah, Gary's been writing some pretty damn good posts.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
362

if this place has spent its energy, there is some to be found at Obsidian Wings that explains all the smen around.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 7:21 PM
horizontal rule
363

351: what did I tell you?


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-26-10 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
364

Oh, I trusted you, alameida, believe me! I was just happy that I avoided some of the side effects I'd had earlier, and since I'm trying to get rid of pain I really don't care that there's no high as long as there's less pain.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-27-10 5:11 AM
horizontal rule