Robert Fripp looking at the camera.
This post title could have been a great segue into talking about Philip Seymour Hoffman's current theatrical excursion in Death of a Salesman. As is I fear this post shall be liked, but not well liked.
Uncultured me was actually thinking of (and misremembering) the alt tex to this classic achewood strip.
Ok, I can see that the previous one isn't terribly interesting to you folks
Geez, x.trapnel practically gave you a blowjob right in the comments. Is he not folks? On a night when I wasn't having animated calls with my boss from 9:30 to 11 I might have liked it.
How vulgar, JP. In any case, LC's 4 was great. I feel like recognizing folks' contributions today.
animated calls
Playing draw something?
x.trapnel is taken by a fey mood!
9: We're being followed around by graphic artists as part of a cartoon documentary showing a modern dysfunctional dynamic workplace.
x.trapnel is taken by a fey mood!
One of the better (and darker) etymologies around, thank you wiktionary:
From Middle English fey ("fated to die"), from Old English fǣge ("doomed to die, timid"), from Proto-Germanic *faigijaz ("cowardly, wicked"), from Proto-Indo-European *pAik-, *pAig- ("ill-meaning, bad"). Akin to Old Saxon fēgi whence Dutch veeg ("doomed, near death"), Old High German feigi ("appointed for death, ungodly") whence German feige ("cowardly"), Old Norse feigr ("doomed") whence the Icelandic feigur ("doomed to die"), Old English fāh ("outlawed, hostile")
BTW, shouldn't we have a thread about Robert DeNiro's joke last night?
I thought it was reasonably funny, but I won't vouch for its appropriateness.
14: I'm trying very hard to figure out how it could be offensive. I suppose the logic is that it would have been offensive in 2008 to joke about the country not being ready for a black first lady. Therefore by the Law of Racial Equivalence, it must be equally offensive to make a joke about the country not being ready for a white first lady in 2012.
Does that seem right?
What was the joke, anyway? I don't know how "google" works.
At a fundraiser at a New York restaurant he owns, the actor introduced Obama by saying: "Callista Gingrich. Karen Santorum. Ann Romney. Now do you really think our country is ready for a white first lady?" The crowd roared, the pool reporter at the event said, as De Niro added, "Too soon, right?"
I'm trying to figure out how it could be funny.
The offensiveness comes from it being a liberal mentioning race.
I'm trying very hard to figure out how it could be offensive.
It isn't remotely offensive. (Ben: "Callista Gingrich. Karen Santorum. Ann Romney. Now do you really think our country is ready for a white first lady?" DeNiro said. "Too soon, right?") And calls for apologies from such delicate flowers as Newt Fucking Gingrich, of all people, should have been greeted with derision and mockery and orders to quit being such a pearl-clutcher. Nobody buys it for a second.
What's the best De Niro comedy? Brazil? Wag the Dog?
I like looking at Robert Fripp looking at things. I mean, he does it so well. Good to know that I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I don't see the problem with that joke, no. Though I suppose that given that it was in introduction of Obama, hm, a little weird.
Okay, actually, I'd call inappropriate, not for the race dimension, but for the gender.
In Other Words: yeah, too soon.
20 is correct. The entire hue and cry is just another variation on the "it's not fair that black people get to use the n word" complaint.
I'd call inappropriate, not for the race dimension, but for the gender.
Because De Niro just assumed that Callista Gingrich, Karen Santorum, and Ann Romney are laydeez?
actually, I'd call inappropriate
Stop being such a pearl-clutcher.
It is not OK to mention race, of any kind, in humor, or gender, of any kind, in humor. That is the price we pay for living in a civilized society. The only appropriate vehicles for humor are the Christian-themed anthropomorphic vegetables in VeggieTales.
Three humans of unspecified gender, religion and ethnicity walked into an establishment in which both alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages are served, and hilarity ensued.
30: Well, no worries, I actually don't give a shit, but we were asked to actually squint at the matter and pretend to be political and electoral thinkers.
There's a subtext accompanying Michelle Obama's first ladyhood, and we all know that not insignificant portions of the electorate find her an insult to genteel womanhood. They're assholes, but that's not the point. DeNiro's joke engages in a sort of tit-for-tat (which I myself consider fine, in closed circles), and insulting a lady's suitability -- whether she is black or white -- gets into all kinds of crap that we don't need to get into.
Should it surprise any of us that 31 comes from an avowed paleoëater as Robert Halford? Today he is the authentic face of the anti-vegetable Left.
33: Yeah, part of me suspects that the joke seems to be simply the reversal of the old "is America ready for a black X?" trope, but is actually about badmouthing Callista, et al. Although AFAIK she's the only one of the 3 that anyone has ever made fun of.
insulting a lady's suitability
DeNiro didn't address anybody's suitability. He asked whether America was ready for a white First Lady, a joke based on the absurdity of the premise, what with having had 30-some white FLOTUSes already.
What's the best De Niro comedy? Brazil? Wag the Dog?
Wag The Dog is really, really good.
I watched it a couple years ago (so almost a decade after it came out) and thought (a) that it was way more applicable to the Iraq war than it was to anything Clinton did -- so much so, in fact, that I was retroactively surprised that I hadn't seen anybody mention it as having predicted the Bush PR campaign and (b) that Willie Nelson was fantastic. I think that movie gave me a big push down the path of becoming a Willie Nelson fan.
What's the best De Niro comedy? Brazil? Wag the Dog?
Jackie Brown.
33: Perhaps this thread should be moved to Standpipe's blog, but doesn't the key to the humor in De Niro's joke lie in the fact that the joke is not really about any of the three ladies he mentions? The butt of the joke is not any of those three women, but societal attitudes. And as such, it is not really a commentary on, let alone an insult to, the suitability of any of them to hold the position of FLOTUS.
I'm not sure if it's the key to the humor, but it's the key to the inoffensiveness. You could make almost the same joke unpleasant if the point were that the there was something actually wrong with all of the three possible FLOTUSes.
Tne New York Knicks were about to sign Chris Paul, but at the last moment the owners decided that New York wasn't ready for a black point guard.
Is this joke
a)hilarious
b) offensive
c) hilarious, but nonetheless offensive
d) an illegal analogy
e) very, very stupid
f) all of the above
I don't think the joke works, since (a) there are plenty of white point guards; (b) the Knicks were in fact the team that was ready to use Lin as a point guard; (c) it's just not funny. But not offensive.
Speaking of election humor, "The Real Mitt Romney" remixed from various clips. Amusing!
37: I have no problem agreeing with that, and I didn't say the joke was offensive. Just too soon. Of course Newt Gingrich et al. are going to clutch their pearls. I am worried about whether I'm guilty of the same, and will take it under advisement.
43: Sports analogies are absolutely useless. (d)
44: Oh no! I offended heebie!
I humbly apologize.
If I heard someone that I didn't know very well make the joke in 43, I would make a mental note that they were probably racist.
(Not knowing anything about the Knicks or how well the joke works.)
I for one find all these jokes about pearl-clutching offensive, when so many people in today's economy are unemployed and can't afford pearls, let alone clutch them. The Unfoggetariat should immediately apologize and ban itself.
Yeah, "offended" is the wrong word, since there's nothing offensive in offering it up as a an (e) analogy. But in another context, it could easily get my shackles up.
Someone should start a charitable organization that loans out pearls for, say, ten minutes at a time to those who would like to clutch them but can afford none of their own.
get my shackles up
No longer kinky!
If I heard someone that I didn't know very well make the joke in 43, I would make a mental note that they were probably racist.
hmmm I might do the same, but only because the joke qua joke is so awkward that it might be some weird fumbling comment about how there are a lot of black people in the NBA something something.
I would make a mental note that they were probably racist
I have no idea how you get to that conclusion.
50: Wow! Liberals are really sensitive about race!
Not knowing anything about the Knicks
For starters, this guy is the greatest point guard in Knicks history.
The joke in 44 would only be (slightly) funny if the team in question was the Celtics.
(I mean, really, the most famous PG in Knicks history is probably "Clyde" Frazier and he's not only black, he's an icon of black style)
I deny that I was pwned, but note that the picture that Apo chose is awesome.
56: I'm assuming the point of the joke is that the Knicks have had a run of white point guards, and if they signed Chris Paul, New Yorkers might not be ready for that, ha ha, which is ludicrous because black people dominate sports.
If someone thinks that's worth saying, I'm going to assume they think racial stereotypes are hilarious. And that they're racist.
60: That was the point! A black point guard for the Knicks is as ordinary as a white first lady!
Now I see the true wisdom of the analogy ban.
Also, I realize the joke wasn't actually funny.
The way you get to the joke being racist is something like "Hey the Knicks like all NBA teams are full of the blacks and isn't that funny, hey look there's a Chinese guy who wants to play too, what happened to the white guys??" Which is admittedly a stretch from the joke as written, but since the joke as written makes no sense at all, I might assume that if it was told by some fumbling white goober that he was trying to make the point above.
62: Does the name Jeremy Lin ring any bells?
I'm assuming the point of the joke is that the Knicks have had a run of white point guards
I no longer have to take heebie at her word that she knows nothing about the Knicks.
I'm assuming the point of the joke is that the Knicks have had a run of white point guards, and if they signed Chris Paul, New Yorkers might not be ready for that
If that were the case (which, of course, it isn't) why would 43 be a joke as opposed to a statement of fact?
If someone makes a joke around me, and I don't think they'd make that joke around a black person, then I think they were being racist.
Best example: when white kids talk with a black accent, in the course of goofing around. I do not think they'd do that around black people. (If they would, I'd be ready with a whole 'nother set of judgments about them.)
I didn't actually think very much about whether it implied the Knicks have had a bunch of white point guards. The joke is a better analogy if they've just had one point guard, I guess. But it still plays on "Blacks dominate sports!"
The joke itself isn't that funny, but I'm suspicious of anyone who needlessly makes extra jokes involving black people. Like, you know everyone is on heightened radar about race, and you're still choosing to make that joke? Why?
68: Actually, I do the same thing. I asked myself what would Ta-Nehisi Coates say (because he is my imaginary black friend). And, my imaginary black friend gave me a friendly slap on the head and said that was a terrible joke even by my low standards.
70: Sure, and the joke is sufficiently borderline that if I knew the person well, I wouldn't pass judgment. But if an acquaintance made the joke, then that makes it worse, because they don't think there's any gray area if you're in the company of white people.
The joke is a better analogy if they've just had one point guard
I... think maybe you should start over, heebie.
Oh, it's a three-point guard? Like shooting outside the paint?
Trivia: the first non-Caucasian player in the NBA was drafted by the Knicks in 1947, and was a Japanese-American guard.
What's the best De Niro comedy? Brazil? Wag the Dog?
King of Comedy with Midnight Run being a guilty pleasure. Mistress ain't bad, but it isn't his movie.
I think the joke way above is mostly making fun of racists, but I would still never make it.
a Japanese-American guard.
I can't keep all these positions straight.
I think the DeNiro joke would be funny in the right context. I might make it, though not while publicly introducing Obama. I mean, did he just say it deadpan? With a sarcastic inflection, I don't think it would be offensive at all.
I would still never make it
I'm going to hold you to that the next time you headline an Obama fundraiser.
This thread is super weird. Except for apostropher.
In 76 I meant the basketball joke.
Neither joke is worth a chuckle.
by the Law of Racial Equivalence, it must be equally offensive
I really wish this phrasing had come to mind last week when I posted Teju Cole's "White Savior Industrial Complex" on my FB and my blowhard friend called him a "zealot and a bigot."
People blame anonymity and pseudonymity about the coarsening of discourse, but sometimes they should thank it. How I wished our personal relationship didn't preclude me from saying "fuck off, troll."
If you wouldn't say it in front of a troll it's speciesist to say it here, k-sky.
80 is exactly right, with the caveat that 37 is exactly right.
If someone makes a joke around me, and I don't think they'd make that joke around a black person, then I think they were being racist.
The thing is, your calculations about whether somebody would repeat it in mixed company are probably off if you didn't understand the premise of the joke from the get-go.
If you wouldn't say it in front of a troll it's speciesist to say it here, k-sky.
What's bob, chopped liver?
85: I wouldn't actually do this if it were a sports joke. I know I don't know what's going on.
I was assuming that peep's point was "what if the races were reversed?" , not "can you follow a Knicks joke?" So I was responding to that.
Anyway, when you reverse the races you can't make the joke anymore, because stuff is asymmetric.
It isn't that asymmetric, because the joke in both cases is that there were lots of people of that race doing that same thing before (white women being first ladies, black athletes being point guards). The nation is presumably prepared for a thing that happens almost all the time, except for notable recent exceptions.
It's not the specific industry that's asymmetric. What's asymmetric is that white people have done a lot more bad stuff to black people than black people have done to white people.
And so everyone gets to make fun of white people, but only black people get to make fun of black people.
What's asymmetric is that white people have done a lot more bad stuff to black people than black people have done to white people
While this is true, electing a person president or paying a person tens of millions of dollars to play basketball doesn't really count as bad stuff, even when you reverse the races.
I dunno, being president seems like a pretty stressful job.
The fact that almost all presidents are white, while almost all professional basketball players are black, has a very close connection with the historical bad stuff.
everyone gets to make fun of white people, but only black people get to make fun of black people
But the brunt of the joke is neither first ladies nor point guards, but a mass public who apparently can't remember anything before Ms. Obama or Mr. Lin. Or perhaps the brunt of the joke is the comedian himself, who can't remember before Ms. Obama or Mr. Lin.
Neither joke is particularly salacious.
I'm just saying that if an acquaintance makes a joke which isn't very funny and the whole point seems to be "Black people are athletes!" then I'm going to mentally file it away.
But no, neither joke has anything to do with short-term memories. The Obama joke is riffing on the 2008 racism.
95: Yeah, picking it apart there's not really anything wrong with the joke, but someone who has a habit of making jokes that turn on race, even if individually unobjectionable, is going to leave me at least quizzical, unless I know them well enough to know what's going on and that it's not racism.
59: When my sister was a kid, she wanted to grow up to be Walt Frazier. Not like him, but actually him. She would walk around with my mom on errands and stuff, pretending to dribble and making squeaking noises to denote sneakers on the court. She actually did play some in Jr. High - she was very tall - but apparently most of her teammates were into coke (this was Miami in the early 80s), and she decided it wasn't the best scene.
She actually did play some in Jr. High - she was very tall - but apparently most of her teammates were into coke
In Jr. High? I am slightly shocked.
Indeed, one would think they'd prefer Dr. Pepper at that age.
NEVER underestimate the fuckeduppedness of Miami in the early 1980s. Never.
It was, after all, a city filled with Vice.
104: Aside from the fact that we'd see filming of that show all over town, she narrowly missed - by a year - the worst shootout in FBI history. Every morning of her senior year, she'd drive to get coffee and then roll into school late. While she was at college for her freshman year, this shootout happened along her route at the time she'd have been driving by.
Obviously not literally a close call, but creepy nonetheless. Miami really was a fucked up place in the '80s. I just remembered another story that happened after she graduated HS. Some dumbs kids from her HS decided that the most efficient way to get drugs was to bypass their dealer and go directly to the house of the... not kingpin, but the dealer's manager, if you will. To steal some drugs. Pretty sure a kid got killed.
Wow that is so exciting and a great way to stay out of trouble.
