If anyone can articulate why exactly this study irritates the fuck out of me,
You feel like men in white lab coats are micromanaging your boobs?
To play devil's advocate, it'd also be annoying if breasts were off-limits for study. Is it just the publicity that irritates me?
Have you read the study? I couldn't find a link.
At least the Bieber note (narcissistic though it is) acknowledges the fact that Anne Frank was a young girl and not some mere icon of the holocaust.
I, on the other hand, find the linked video infuriating. Infuriating! The hell with Phish.
I found the Bieber thing considerably less outrageous than I'm told I should have. Yes, he's narcissistic. So what?* Also, please keep in mind that my mother survived the Holocaust, so I have unassailable moral authority on this subject (and, really, all others).
* This question not directed at heebie, so much as to the entire internetical uproar over this horrible affront to propriety and the memory of the six million.
Shorter Von Wafer: you're all antisemites.
I'm limping and shorter. Getting old really is a bitch.
Anne Frank was a Valleeber, so why wouldn't she have been a Belieber?
Total nonstory.
This question not directed at heebie,
That's good! Because I don't really find it offensive. Just hilariously tone-deaf.
Anne Frank herself might have preferred to have been a belieber rather than a martyr, it's hard to say. Also, he did say 'hopefully' so he's not assuming anything.
That video is great and the first time I have actually enjoyed Phish music.
I've been irritated by the assumption that women wear bras in the interest of keeping their boobs perky in the long run. What? I wear a bra (and did so in my teens and 20s as well) to give my breasts the societally accepted boobshape in clothes. You have to have relatively small and/or exceptionally perfectly shaped breasts to be able to pull off bralessness. (Not to even touch on the question of modesty/unwanted attention.)
10: tone deaf or maybe he just couldn't think of something appropriate to write in the guest book. Regardless, six million Jews, confronted with this horror, are surely rolling over in their mass graves.
This thread will only reach its full potential when we talk about Anne Frank's breasts.
Is it just the publicity that irritates me?
No, it is the micro part of the micromanaging that is bothering you. If it were just general guidelines for good boob health, like let the girls out for a breather every so often, you'd be fine with it.
I thought her dad took those parts out of the book.
And at least in the write-ups I've seen, breastsize has not been mentioned, nor discomfort. Even when I was a perky teenager, I found it uncomfortable to go braless. I'm particularly calling bullshit on their "women just need to get used to jogging braless!" claim.
Maybe it's that, IMO, it's not broke, so don't fix it. That makes the whole study seem salacious and an exercise in getting to see boobies, rather than science. I dunno.
The guy from Phish wrote the music for the musical of Hands on a Hardbody I saw on Broadway a few weeks ago that closed yesterday after like 28 performances. (I've seen bigger flops than that, actually. The musical of High Fidelity closed after a generous fourteen. Both have lyrics by Amanda Green, an abysmal songwriter who I guess continues to work on Broadway because that's Green as in Adolph Green. I think almost nobody here is a musical theater person so I'm not sure why I'm going on at length about this or why I haven't closed the parenthesis.) Um anyway it wasn't terrible but it wasn't very good and I've always really liked the documentary and this doesn't turn out to have much to do with the OP so:
Justin Bieber: what an allergen that little twink is.
15: Maybe so. (Acknowledging funny link.)
I'm particularly calling bullshit on their "women just need to get used to jogging braless!" claim.
I have similar, but less sexy and non-gendered, thoughts about jogging without shoes.
This thread will only reach its full potential when we talk about Anne Frank's breasts.
People at my coop in college used to make this one woman who lived there who was a Catholic really uncomfortable by talking about the Pope's penis. Or maybe it was god's penis? She told us one time that her grandmother was so religious she made her shower in her clothes so god could not see her shameful naked body. Which was totally hilarious because, what, he can see through the fucking roof but not a millimeter of fabric?
The real crime here, btw, is the term "belieber." The kid must have an army-sized PR team and that's what they came up with?
You have to have relatively small and/or exceptionally perfectly shaped breasts to be able to pull off bralessness.
That was high school and college for me. A high point in my difficult relationship with my mother was the day when she decided to finally object to my habit of going around braless, and told me she didn't want me leaving the house like that as I was going out. Unfortunately for her, I was perky enough at the time that bra or no bra didn't make much visible difference, and she'd guessed wrong, I actually was wearing a bra on the day that she brought it up.
So I fished my bra-strap out of my neckline, snapped it at her, and kept walking out without saying anything. I wasn't a respectful child.
That makes the whole study seem salacious and an exercise in getting to see boobies, rather than science. I dunno.
Knowing what's in the actual study would presumably help resolve this question. The fact that internet coverage has been a salacious exercise in posting pictures of/talking about boobies is not so surprising.
12 -- There was a moment when societal acceptance seemed to have been heading towards a broader range, not a narrower range. At least that's how it seemed to me, although my inability to understand -- or even see -- trends in fashion has been demonstrated.
22: You've never heard the term "belieber" before! You don't hang out with many tween girls, do you? And you don't want watch many entertainment news shows! I'm guessing it was one of his many many devoted fans that came up the term, not any of Justin's PR team.
21: I was loving the barefoot-shoes thing for a year or so, and then my feet got sore and didn't stop being sore until I gave up and wore shoes again. Not injury-sore, just spent-all-day-walking-around-a-museum kind of sore.
I still like my barefoot-ish shoes. I don't wear them all the time (and don't run all that much) but I seem to have adapted pretty well.
Googling "pope's penis" turned out to be less informative than I might have hoped. As for god's penis, didn't Milton Berle have it or something?
29: No, Dick Cheney has it in a jar on his desk.
27: I always walk around for a half and hour and then go sit in the cafe.
He is a douche and lately seems to be playing the bad boy in order to get away from his bubblegum teenybopper image or whatever. Anyway I thought the statement from the museum was put well: "He's 19, it's a strange life he's living, it wasn't very sensible but he didn't mean bad."
27, 31: I've never tested this, but I've always assumed that they would make you wear shoes in a museum.
33: You just double the "suggested donation" and it's fine.
I thought it was kind of an interesting window into his mind -- and when you think about it of course his first thought on seeing a picture of a girl that age is that she would probably be his fan. He's mobbed by girls that age every time he appears in public.
The musical of High Fidelity closed after a generous fourteen. Both have lyrics by Amanda Green, an abysmal songwriter who I guess continues to work on Broadway because that's Green as in Adolph Green.
Does this also explain the horrific career of Adam "Anti-folk" Green?
26: Well, so...actually I heard about Justin Bieber constantly for a while because I have a developmentally delayed adult cousin who is into lots of teen culture. I stopped hearing about it because 1) it got to be too much and I hid her from my feed and 2) she is now, er, a Directioner more fervently than is she a Belieber. But I don't think I ever heard her use that term, no.
36: From what I can gather, no. Though apparently his grandmother was engaged to Kafka. That's gotta open a few doors!
didn't Milton Berle have it or something?/i>
Or so the Berlebers would have you believe.
I still love my barefoot shoes. OTOHYMMVHowever, I haven't been running in months.
I wear bras because it's uncomfortable not to; the idea that I find them uncomfortable but I'm doing it to preserve perfectly round sexy boobs when I'm fifty is laughable, so the study seemed a little... presumptuous of motives? I think I had small perky boobs for about fifteen minutes in 6th grade.
Oh, Moby. They're called One Direction. Are you, then, truly immune to the infinite charms of Harry and Niall and...those other three haircut-needing moppets?
That's gotta open a few doors!
Leading into a maze of cramped corridors punctuated with doors leading into dusty offices populated by unhelpful bureaucrats.
41: But they never say which direction it is. I assume it is straight to hell in a hand basket.
I had not, until just now, heard of One Direction. I've never felt more like a scholar! [strokes beard thoughtfully; pulls weighty volume from shelf; gazes into middle distances and ponders important things]
I still wish I knew what was actually in the study.
I can think of one situation where not wearing a bra was bad for a woman's health. (Not totally sure, but probably). I have a client who has a persistent infection under her large pendulous breasts. It won't go away completely without surgery, and it isn't helped by the fact that she has psychotic beliefs about bathing, specifically that if she bathes too much, she'll start menstruating again and get pregnant. Using hibiclens and remembering to put on her clindamycin/ follow wound care guidelines would help too. This is no joke. She was hospitalized with sepsis at one point. The NP I work with thinks that if the area got more air and wasn't as moist, the infection would be controlled.
We were looking at the genie bra as an option, since it doesn't have wires, but no dice thus far.
I would offer VW a mug of some steaming beverage for his middle-distance gazing but I think one has to be female to be eligible for the free middle distance steaming beverage.
VW can put on a bulky sweater, cradle a steaming hot volume of historiography in both hands and inhale deeply.
The thing that baffles me about the study is that there are plenty (or so childhood National Geographic leads me to believe) cultures where women don't wear bras, and their breasts aren't actually super perky at age 50.
And what Cala and Blume have said above: that perkiness is clearly the end-all-be-all of breast priorities.
Maybe National Geographic only hires photographers with an anti-perky fetish because that's who is left after the other magazines take their pick.
Does the study say that perkiness per se is the positive outcome?
Breasts so perky they'll smack you right in the eye!
47: I first heard of them mere hours ago, in this context:
Git-haired One Direction sex minnow Harry Styles hastily tweeted an RIP, prompting many of his fans to wonder aloud just who this "Thatcher" person was, much to the amusement of onlookers not quite smart enough to understand how time works. It's unfair to berate One Direction fans for their Maggie ignorance: for one thing, they're about 10 minutes old. They've only just learned to grasp objects.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/thatcher-ding-dong-bbc-charlie-brooker
I wish someone in this thread cared the actual study instead of just the science journalism. But it seems that we're all uniformly indifferent to the actual study.
The real crime here, btw, is the term "belieber."
It's no "Fanilow" for sure.
I actually can't figure out if there is a real study at all, and if there is, where it might have been published. The HuffPo thing links to some site that has what looks like a press release, but no link to an actual study or mention of a journal name.
But it seems that we're all uniformly indifferent to the actual study.
Regardless of what the actual study says, whatever source all these news outlets are using seems to focus on the question of whether wearing a bra preserves perkiness.
Maybe it hasn't been published yet? There seems to be 15 years of data on 300 women by some French guy.
58: My favorite is Hed-Head when Hedwig was a thing. I am still gnashing my teeth that the revival didn't happen.
That's gotta open a few doors!
You'd think so. But actually it just means that while there are doors for you, they never open.
The scientist that keeps getting quoted certainly seems to have an extensive, not obviously boob-obsessed publication record.
Might all be fake, though. Could we be dealing with the A.D. Harvey of exercise physiology?
Sentences like this aggravate me:
Bras do nothing to help support a woman's breasts and could even be doing damage.
Oh really? Because bras seem to work really well while they're on. They do nothing, WHILE THEY'RE ON?
56: This is going to sound snotty and I don't mean it to, but do you watch any tv? I feel like I've been bombarded with One Direction since I got here. (And that's without being a target audience or watching a lot of tv.)
All the French sources I can find refer to France Info as the organ to which the researcher spoke, and nowhere else.
That was the point I was trying to make in 12. That bras are about the shaping they do while they're wearing them, not something you do to try to look better naked when you're 50.
He said a principle observation was that the nipple would lift 7mm in a year towards the shoulder in those women not wearing a bra.
Leaving the proofreading to one side, this seems like the kind of statement that can't possibly be true. I mean, what happens after ten years -- you're actually suspended in midair by your levitating nipples?
They do nothing, WHILE THEY'RE ON?
They keep you from getting muscle knots in your back that you need to get massaged out, heebs.
So some fucking exercise physiologist told the student radio station at his provincial university that college women totally don't need to wear bras and it's become a giant international news story? I lay blame for this squarely at the feet of journalism, not science.
Also, braless women find it easier to sit through Lord of the Rings.
"REPORT: RANDOM DUDE IN FRANCE TELLS 20-YEAR-OLD TO TAKE OFF HER BRA!"
70, 72: I actually wondered the same thing. I assume he means, compared to non-bra-wearing, 7mm less sagging? But what a weird way to put it.
My favorite is Hed-Head when Hedwig was a thing. I am still gnashing my teeth that the revival didn't happen.
Maybe the revival didn't happen on Broadway, but out here it's been going since last summer.
If I were going to be reading it charitably, I'd assume it means that if Jane Average Woman spends a year not wearing a bra, her nipples lift 7mm compared to where they were when she was a habitual bra wearer (who had taken the bra off for the momentary purpose of having her nipples measured) but that the process doesn't continue indefinitely. But the sentence doesn't communicated that unambiguously at all.
I hate it when I'm mocking someone else's writing and I screw up.
(I should note the Iberian beauty's stated reason for originally messaging me on OKCupid was that I liked three of her favorite things: Pulp, Metropolitan, and Hedwig.)
Also, the reason I like "Belieber" is that, to my not-at-all-fluent-in-German eyes, it makes an amusing sorta-pun, since "Beliebt" means popular/acclaimed. So it would be interesting if it were the case that one of his German fans had originally coined it.
three of her favorite things: Pulp, Metropolitan, and Hedwig Bieber, boobies, and short lists.
I think there's already a more eloquent piece about the Bieber thing out there somewhere, but just it case it doesn't say this: I think that statement is totally fine and in fact preserves the significance of Anne Frank. Anne Frank wasn't a Resistance hero, or a saint. She's important because she was basically just a regular kid (if somewhat more articulate and intelligent than many people her age) and she got murdered by fascists. Her significance is, in fact, solely in the realm of popular culture, in that her story and diary allows people to empathize more thoroughly with the victims of the Holocaust and all other victims of genocide. Indeed, as pointed out above, one of the charming and humanizing things about her story is her own interest in pop culture. Who knows but that she might have grown up to be an amazing cultural theorist?
How many people would have even thought of Anne Frank today if Bieber hadn't written that note? If just a handful of people renew their commitment to fighting against racism and fascism today because of what he wrote, then it was well worth it.
What if a handful of people decide fascism can't be that bad if Bieber is on the other side?
85: That had occurred to me, but probably they spend all their time on four chan already.
81: some woman on okc seemed favorably impressed by my citation of Play Time and Beau Travail as movies I like, but apparently never updated her location to reflect that she lives, not in Oakland, but in New York. Oh well!
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Food "storage" question:
I like to put a little bit of honey on my yogurt in the morning.
Invariably, before I finish the bottle (cute little bear kind) it gets kind of grainy. Is it possible for me to reverse this or keep it from happening in the first place?
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How many people would have even thought of Anne Frank today if Bieber hadn't written that note?
I bet 80% of all middle schoolers know who Anne Frank is.
89: Right, but unless they're reading the book right now, would they have thought about her?
There are probably several exquisitely tasteless jokes to be made of this story, but I'd prefer to leave that to one of the Jews around here (bonus points for riffing off the apocryphal Anne Frank/Pia Zadora/"They're in the attic!" anecdote).
Pretty sure this whole thing is just a giant astroturfing campaign sponsored by Knecht Ruprecht.
What's the paleo position on bras? Yes, no, or only if made out of fur?
By "this whole thing" I meant the myth of the holocaust, LB.
"What's worse than biting into an apple and finding a worm?" God, I love that joke.
IME, the sports bra is favored by paleo-eating females. But there's probably a niche for a "barefoot bra" if one of you can invent one. I guess there's this thread along with [probably totally bullshit] speculation that large breasts are a neolithic phenomenon.
I guess there's this hunter-gatherer love as well.
along with [probably totally bullshit] speculation that large breasts are a neolithic phenomenon
Not to mention the whole 'bras cause breast cancer' thing.
He should have said "Hopefully she'd have grown up to become a lesbian who looks like Justin Bieber."
97: You know why you never bite into an apple and find an FBI agent? Because they always come in pears!
Still working on popularizing this one.
89: For the class of 2030, there will never have been a time when Justin Bieber didn't know who Anne Frank was.
"What's worse than biting into an apple and finding a worm?"
The holocaust?
Finding a pear in your apple?
oudemia tells me (in email) that 103.last belongs on Standpipe's blog. I am, sadly, not aware of all unfogged traditions.
Biting into a Halloween worm and finding a razor blade.
You'd think so. But actually it just means that while there are doors for you, they never open.
says the man with not one but two Oxbridge colleges named after him.
I've been to Anne Frank's house. I'm surprised she lasted so long really. The poor thing didn't stand a chance. There are signs up all over town.
By the way, the 90210 video in the OP--is the guy in the green-and-white striped shirt supposed to be a chaperone, making sure they don't get too freaky to Phish? It's hard to tell, because he's no older than most of the actors.
If it's any comfort to those above who are screaming, "Show me the original article!", a Senior Editor of Nature who blogs here has likewise been unable to find it. He has tracked down a rather more serious discussion of the claims, which itself dependent on journalism, but refers to an earlier Japanese study which suggests exactly the opposite. Also this, for the benefit of all you runners.
Provisional conclusion: Rouillon's paper isn't on line, for better or for worse.
115: I'm pretty sure the original dance contest is not set to Phish, standpipe.
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Explosions at the finish line of the Boston Marathon, people injured.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/15/several-hurt-in-explosions-at-boston-marathon-finish-line/ and many others.
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119: Oh hell. A friend's husband is running for a local charity.
Yeah, my brother in law and sister in law are down there. SIL called because she can't contact BIL. I have him tracked on latitude and it looks like he's 2 blocks from the explosions, but can't raise websites and cell network is flooded. SIL said reports of serious injuries like people missing limbs. Police were yelling at her to leave the area.
Holy crap. First I heard about it was my mom texting me to say "we're okay".
By the way, the 90210 video in the OP--is the guy in the green-and-white striped shirt supposed to be a chaperone, making sure they don't get too freaky to Phish?
Jesus Christ, this is worse than the intellectual property comments. First of all, of course they are not dancing to Phish. Phish! Secondly, they do not need to be chaperoned -- this is a PARTY AT CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY. They are university students and legally adult. It says so right there on the banner. Right there. California University. The episode is from the early part of the season (I believe Season 4) where they are all just beginning to attend California University, it's freshman year. Don't you know anything?
WHATEVER I'm posting from my stupid iPad.
If I hadn't properly formatted the link, I'd have been way earlier.
114 is not original, but nicked off Frankie Boyle. Sh!me on you.
123: I miss the era when television was irredeemable trash, not grist for the "That's so/so not feminist!" Internet mill.
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In the Gosnell case does the prosecution have to prove that the seven infants were born alive in the sense that you could see them kicking and moving, or do they have to show that these were post-viability abortions, in the sense that these babies could have survived to adulthood if they had been put on respirators, etc?
For two years now I've had a note on my to do list saying I should discuss this in my medical ethics classes. I'm finally getting around to it now that I'm told there is a left wing cover-up of the event.
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In fact, time stamps on posts don't show up on the front page, so maybe I was first and all of you have egg on your faces, eggfaces.
Fucking reduced to watching tv for news.
Is the Gosnell case the triumphant I-told-you-so that anti-abortion fruitcakes have been putting in my FB feed lately?
130: the globe liveblog is still updating and then the local twitter feeds (universalhub etc.) are updating. Not sure there's much to know yet; all the local media is in lockdown. There is some fucking horrifying footage on bloomberg TV.
131. Yeah. Katha Pollit wrote about it in 2011 pointing out that it shows the horror of back alley abortion and the bad consequences of restricting access to safe legal abortion early in pregnancy.
Two years later, the right wing discovers the case, and announces that the left has been covering it up, and that it shows the need for more restrictive abortion laws, because unless you ban abortion after a five weeks, doctors will automatically start murdering babies that are born alive.
Katha Pollit wrote about it in 2011, with a link.
We had a thread about it here back in 2011 -- I think Shearer was ahead of the rightwing press in asking why we hadn't covered it.
126: this is a very very sore point with me. I had been making that joke ever since seeing such a sign (there's actually only one or two) in the early 2000s. I woke up the baby with my fit of rage at seeing the bastard telling MY joke on telly. Mrs Digest can confirm this.
Ein Belieber und ihre Beliebte, sehr romantisch. By the way, ALF is actually based on Anne Frank (Anne L. Frank). True story.
Ein Belieber und ihre Beliebte, sehr romantisch.
Genau!
Mary Mother of God, how did I miss the post underneath the post linked in 137?
128
In the Gosnell case does the prosecution have to prove that the seven infants were born alive in the sense that you could see them kicking and moving, or do they have to show that these were post-viability abortions, in the sense that these babies could have survived to adulthood if they had been put on respirators, etc?
IANAL but I believe they have to prove the babies were alive and that Gosnell (or whoever) killed them. That they might have died soon anyway is irrelevant, the same as if you shoot someone who is terminally ill. Death after a failure to render appropriate care is a different crime, infanticide (in Pennsylvania).
Not to take anything away on this day of tragedy, but there's nothing more soothing than listening to Vin Scully reminiscing about Jackie Robinson and Branch Rickey on Jackie Robinson day.
More science of BOOBIES!
Is Cala really 50, or did I misread 43? I thought she was younger than I am.
Also, since I don't see her in any of the current threads:
Thanks, Al, for making me notice the semen smell of privet hedges. Awesome upgrade to my experience of spring.
148: I believe she plans to be fifty at some point in the future, but over a decade from now.
On the semeny privet hedges -- the thing is, the smell of semen isn't all that strong or distinctive. Lots of plants smell a little like it. Does it help if you think of semen as smelling like vegetation, rather than the reverse?
Add "Semeny Privet" to the list of available pseuds for those wishing to delurk.
Also, an excellent pseudonym for anyone wishing to write erotic fanfiction based on "A Series of Unfortunate Events".
149.last: actually, the mention of semen as having a grassy smell (because it shares chemicals with grass) was helpful; I'd never really been able to place it.