Re: Sexism, patriarchy, etc

1

But if I saw her running I wouldn't have gotten the political message.

Yes. I'd assume the lines at the portable toilets were too long and she was trying to make a certain time.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:23 AM
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2

Anyway, googling "Marathon runner poop" is the sort of thing you don't want to do right before lunch.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:29 AM
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3

2 was what I was about to do before I realized it's a bad idea. Pooping on the run has a long and distinguished history, so why not menstruate freely as well.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:35 AM
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4

Like REO Speedwagon sang, "You're under the gun so you poop on the run."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:38 AM
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5

Both the poo and blood scenarios mostly just make me think that running 26 miles is a terrible idea.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:39 AM
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6

Well, because in the rest of life, people menstruate while walking, exercising, swimming, etc and there a well-established convenient way to do so. People less often poop during those activities.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:40 AM
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7

5: Poop and blood clean up quickly. Tendons are the real problem.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:41 AM
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8

Uta Pippig.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:42 AM
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9

Grete Waitz


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:48 AM
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10

But if I saw her running I wouldn't have gotten the political message.

For the tl;dr among us, what is the political message?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:49 AM
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11

We've had this conversation before.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:50 AM
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12

10: As I ran, I thought to myself about how women and men have both been effectively socialized to pretend periods don't exist. By establishing a norm of period-shaming, [male-preferring] societies effectively prevent the ability to bond over an experience that 50% of us in the human population share monthly. By making it difficult to speak about, we don't have language to express pain in the workplace, and we don't acknowledge differences between women and men that must be recognized and established as acceptable norms. Because it is all kept quiet, women are socialized not to complain or talk about their own bodily functions, since no one can see it happening. And if you can't see it, it's probably "not a big deal." Why is this an important issue? Because THIS is happening, right now.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:52 AM
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13

That was more than two years ago.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:52 AM
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14

12 was supposed to be in italics.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 7:53 AM
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15

13 to 11.

The math is off on 12. In any given month, well below 50% of the human population has a period.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:00 AM
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16

I don't menstruate, but I certainly experience it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:03 AM
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17

By that standard, you've may have also run a marathon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:07 AM
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18

To OP.1, wasn't there another very similar story from someone who was trying to get a writing-for-hire business started, and with a male name immediately got much more business? Can't track it down.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:15 AM
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19

You know, I will never menstruate again. I'm practically Donald Trump.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:17 AM
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20

To OP. 1 -- shouldn't agents/editors be suspicious about writers named "George"? There's a tradition.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:18 AM
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21

18: That ground was already covered in the opening sequence of Remington Steele.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:20 AM
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22

You know, I will never menstruate again. I'm practically Donald Trump.

I think there's more to it than that. At least I hope there is.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:20 AM
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23

19: Welcome to the club, heebie!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:22 AM
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24

Actually, I've barely menstruated for the past seven years. But who's counting.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:23 AM
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25

How many marathons have you run?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:23 AM
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26

Who can count.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:26 AM
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27

26: We were hoping the math professor could.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:27 AM
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28

Let's talk about pentagons.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:29 AM
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29

They have five sides.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:32 AM
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30

The interior angles of a pentagon sum to 540 degrees. I think.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:33 AM
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31

Regular pentagons can't tile the plane, but many irregular pentagons can, which really makes you think, what's so great about regularity?

On the other hand, what's so great about tiling the plane?

It's a stumper.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:34 AM
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32

If you confine an angle somewhere it can't escape, you might say that you have "pent a gon".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:35 AM
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33

These pentagon references evoke Lewis Mumford for me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Machine

I thought the Remington Steele reference too; I'm glad Moby used it. Such a familiar trope, going back a good long way.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:36 AM
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34

I watched lots of TV in the 80s.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:38 AM
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35

Whenever five apocalyptic Christians link arms, that's a repentagon.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:39 AM
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36

what's so great about regularity?

It's not that regularity per se is so great, but rather that constipation can be quite unpleasant.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:41 AM
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37

On the other hand, what's so great about tiling the plane?

First up against the wall.


Posted by: Fraternal Order of Transport Flooring Setters | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:42 AM
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38

Regular pentagons can't tile the plane, but many irregular pentagons can

They found another one the other day. That can.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:44 AM
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39

38 me. It hasn't lost my sig for a while.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:46 AM
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40

I will never menstruate again.

Not with that defeatist attitude you won't. I believe in you, heebie!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:47 AM
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41

38/9: I know, there was a post about it.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:48 AM
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42

40: If you run a marathon with me, I promise I won't use a tampon.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:49 AM
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43

Can you get Penrose bathroom tiles? I've always sort of wanted an aperiodic floor.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:51 AM
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44

My grad advisor has exactly that, in his bathroom.


Posted by: oh who are we kidding. | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:54 AM
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45

Excuse me, pinwheel.


Posted by: oh who are we kidding. | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:55 AM
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46

I was thinking of the what do you call them? Kite and dart tiles?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 8:58 AM
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47

43: I just heard that the Oxford math dept got them. But it was quite difficult: it requires more precision in manufacturing and laying the tile than simpler filings require, and it's a lot of work for the workers to constantly check that they're doing it correctly. On just a bathroom the latter is probably less of a big deal, but the former is a problem because you're not ordering very many tiles so it's not clear that it's worth it to anyone.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:02 AM
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48

46: I've considered doing some Penrose knitting but haven't tried yet.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:03 AM
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49

The pinwheel ones look like they might be easier to buy since they're such a simple shape to manufacture.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:05 AM
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50

Running 26.2 miles with a wad of cotton material wedged between my legs just seemed so absurd. Plus they say chaffing is a real thing.

I don't have experience menstruating obviously but I would have thought chaffing would be a serious concern either way. I mean, I've got a lot of experience with ball sweat and chaffing can certainly be a problem there.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:11 AM
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51

I see that for this new pentagon all 5 angles are multiples of 15 degrees (60, 135, 105, 90, 150). Are mathematicians worldwide slapping their heads that they didn't write a simple computer program to test tiling-ness of all pentagons with promising properties like that?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:17 AM
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52

Using a pad would indeed be a terrible idea. Most people would use a tampon.

My guess is that she has edited out the logistics of her decision - that it was actually "I'll be on my heaviest day, and so I would definitely need to change my tampon halfway through, and there won't be any easy way to do so, and I don't want to break my mental concentration...really, fuck it."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:18 AM
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53

Plus they say chaffing is a real thing.

It's the wheating you have to really watch out for.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:26 AM
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54

I don't have experience menstruating obviously

Urple only menstruates surreptitiously.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:31 AM
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55

Urple style


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:32 AM
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56

Of courfe chaffing if a real thing.


Posted by: Opinionated 18th Century Dance Instructor | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:33 AM
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57

I've always sort of wanted an aperiodic floor.

What happens if you put a periodic table on an aperiodic floor?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:35 AM
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58

I can't help reading this thread as outtakes from Wittgenstein's Mistress.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:37 AM
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59

Lots of people run marathons on their aperiods.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:42 AM
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60

It'f fpelled "chaffeing", you filly fod.

Chaffing, on the other hand, is a perfectly good if slightly outdated synonym for "taking the piss".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:43 AM
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61

We freeze the piss and then mail it packed in dry ice.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:46 AM
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62

I've never understood why urine theft is so pervasive on Knifecrime Island.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:50 AM
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63

The bobcat farmers we visited are one of the largest suppliers of bobcat and coyote urine in North America.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:52 AM
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64

They make a lot of money reselling it later as whiskey.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:52 AM
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65

whiskey s/b Axe Body Spray


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 9:58 AM
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66

The tricky part is training the bobcats to pee in a jar.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:14 AM
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67

Presumably to keep unwanted animals off your land. British zoos sell wolf shit for this, I suppose American zoos do too.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:18 AM
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68

It doesn't actually work, but Big Zoo doesn't want you to know that.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:20 AM
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69

Will you remember my personal info!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:20 AM
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70

Presumably to keep unwanted animals off your land

I think it's for hunting, but I don't really know.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:21 AM
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71

69: I will always remember your personal info, chris y!

(sung unsuccessfully to the tune of "I will always love you")


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:28 AM
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72

In antiquity they used to throw camel shit at war elephants in battle, which for some reason made them panic.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 10:31 AM
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73

The submitting under a male name story is *extremely* depressing, especially as I am sending my novel around to agents and publishing houses currently; also since I've been having a rough patch lately -- I did sell a story (finally!) last night, but up to then it had been almost a year between sales.

And meanwhile in the SF we've been having the latest Unpleasantness with the Puppies, so I've been seeing what, exactly, *is* getting published by (some) of the men in the field.

Which, you know, fuck.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 1:51 PM
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74

Let's all write a novel and run a marathon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 1:52 PM
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75

Have you considered submitting your novel to publishing houses under the pseudonym "Theodore Beale"?


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 1:54 PM
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76

I am 100% seriously going to send out any novel I write under a male name, unless I think it is bombproof genius (which is vanishingly unlikely). I have never in my adult life expected anything except the outcome described in that article, and I'm surprised that so many other women still do. Okay relurking.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:34 PM
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77

It's bizarre because the market for novels is almost entirely female. Maybe not in SF.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:39 PM
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78

Certainly not novels about the tech hero who saves humanity from AI-based extinction.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:45 PM
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79

MHPH, you made me snort with laughter, here alone in the office.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:46 PM
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80

I sometimes wonder if I could write a whole novel. Then I remember that lately I lack the focus to read a whole novel.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:50 PM
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81

I could totally write a novel, if it was nonfiction and the plot was my life and it came out in weekly installments and wasn't expected to be particularly fascinating.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 2:52 PM
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82

77 expresses my opinion. I feel more sympathy now toward Jennifer Weiner and her "Woe is me, the incredibly popular novelist, because I am not taken seriously by unspecified people" campaign.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 3:03 PM
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83

I could print my emails.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 3:04 PM
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84

If I had a printer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 3:04 PM
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85

Roberto: Yeah, but publishing decisions seem to have strangely little to do with readers as such. They're always there, churning around in a state of Brownian motion through the stacks, occasionally pushed by some overwhelming wave of genre or cultural change. There is a more significant model reader who wants certain things from male authors and other things from female authors, to a large extent regardless of the reader's own gender. Publishers will buy into that model reader schema until doomsday. In a way it hasn't evolved with feminism because that female-readership dynamic has always been part of the history of the novel in English.

It's not easy to puzzle out the details, though, and I'm not going to drive myself nuts trying to assign percent agency to players. Young male writers want to be Joyce. Young female writers also want to be Joyce, but know they'll fail in the eyes of the world no matter what. Their male peers will fail too; yet it's a different failure. Everyone knows how it works. Jesus I'm calm today.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 3:22 PM
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86

In the SF/F, we have other complications, though opinion are divided on just what those complications are.

The biggest problem -- if you want to know what *I* think -- is that most publishing houses and most publishers were raised in a patriarchy. So, you know, they *know* that most readers (yes, even in the SF/F world) are women and that maybe they'd do better if they considered that when they looked at what they bought and what they published, and YET.

Year after year, you get the Big Six publishers and the Big Three magazines telling us that just not enough women submit to them, and not enough writers of color submit to them, and not enough LGBTQ writers submit to them, so whatever can they do?

They can only publish what they see, after all! This is the sole and only cause of the disparity in publishing!

And when you show them studies like this -- that the same story or pitch submitted under a man's name and under a woman's name gets a very different reaction -- many of them won't believe it. Because they're not sexist. (Or racist, or homophobic, or whatever.)

Our press, OTOH, Crossed Genres Press, has made it a mission to seek out women writers, and writers of color, and LGBTQ writers. Our editors hunt out these writers and encourage them to submit. Oddly enough, we see tons of excellent stories -- some from white straight cismen, sure, we've got nothing against straight white guys so long as y'all can write -- but plenty from other people too.

My point, and I do have one, is that the world can change. But not unless writers and editors and publishers make it change.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 3:49 PM
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87

I just heard that the Oxford math dept got them.

It's a very nice building, and there's a lovely film of the Penrose tiles being laid:
https://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/about-us/our-building

The old Maths Institute was horribly ugly, but fortunately I didn't have to go there much (because my lectures were (mostly?) in the University Museum. And I didn't go to many lectures). I'm very envious of the new place.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08-13-15 4:42 PM
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88

NaMaNoMo


Posted by: conflated | Link to this comment | 08-14-15 6:18 AM
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89

86: Your press? Really? The SF class/group* that I run just read Long Hidden. The group as a whole was not quite as patient with the book as I would have liked. I think people probably liked the Tananarive Due story best, but my personal favorite was "Ffydd"/the one with the conscientious objectors and vampires.

*More structured than a reading group with more prep by me; looser than a real class and I don't have that much authority. Perpetually contending ideologies to the point where it's exhausting and I long to be the kind of teacher who shuts the discussion right down.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08-14-15 2:43 PM
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