Pianos are really fucking loud inside a house. It should be like making fireworks or skinning rabbits. Kept outside.

My parents made me play an instrument and I hated every minute of it so I never made my son do it. I did force him to see a violin for long enough to get the general idea of what they are.

2.last made me laugh. Way to avoid tragedy.

I wasn't forced or encouraged to learn music and now I kind of regret that. But if I had been I don't doubt I would have resented every second and done very badly.

He's never seen a cello. Just a violin and a double bass. With two points of data, he can infer the rest.

My older brothers were forced to take piano lessons, and the experience was so unpleasant for everyone that my parents gave up on the idea for my sister and me.

When my oldest brother was a senior in high school, more or less by chance, he took an elective class, "Music Appreciation" and became obsessed with classical music. On his own started playing piano again, teaching himself to play classical pieces. The soundtrack of my childhood was his clumsy attempts to master these pieces punctuated by frequent exclamations of "Shit!" and "Fuck!" each time he messed up. To this day he continues to practice just about every day.

My brother and I wanted to play guitar and drums (because cool), but my mother made us take piano lessons first (to get a musical foundation and learn to read music). After two years of piano, my brother quit, and I went on to play drums. I still play drums, and playing music definitely activates a part of my brain like nothing else and I'm grateful for it. But drums are really heavy and annoying to move, and also drummer stereotypes mean that people assume I can't read or do basic math.

In the Kingdom of Heaven all children would be required to study music long enough to be sorted into one of three categories: the prodigies, to be enslaved in golden chains for the greater good; the strivers, to fill out the orchestra pit; and the rest, to be allowed to go outside and play.

Or pee without hitting the floor.

A simple challenge, outside.

I took maybe five years of piano, it never took at all and eventually poor Mr. Fulton asked my parents if I could please stop. (Unprompted by me, but I was grateful.) On the other hand, my sister did the same and actually learned something, and has played for enjoyment as an adult.

I kind of think that a certain amount of ability to make music is one of the basic human skills that everyone should have a little of -- I don't, but I feel it as a lack. So, overall, I dunno.

I was forced to take violin lessons until I passed grade 1. I hated it and I don't think it did anything for me. It certainly didn't awaken any musical talent/sensibility.

The Calabat has had piano lessons since age 4. He has some talent, and it's been helpful cognitively for teaching him how to learn things by breaking the problem down into small pieces. He's bright, so I see this as a potentially useful skill for a kid for whom nearly everything else comes effortlessly.

But he's taking piano lessons also because I never had the opportunity to do so myself, and it's a huge regret (although I guess properly it should be my parents' regret?)

People who were forced to take music lessons generally wish they weren't, and people who weren't forced to take music lessons (me) wish we were. Best to at least give them the chance to learn an instrument by forcing them to do it; they might be one of those who likes it.

This is out of my rear end, but I think if you want your kids to be musical, they should see you enjoying and committing to working on your musical capacity. Are you practicing your piano? Do they see you writing songs? Do you all sing together?

Also, it might help if you gave them some agency within the process, like let them pick an instrument.

I realize one of these things requires time and one of these things requires a bit more money (though ITSM instrument rental should be less than lessons) but both might make the process more successful. On balance, IMO, it would be a better use of energy to let them pick the activities they're interested in and use your enforcement energy to require commitment to whatever they've chosen.

14 is exactly our experience: Jammies really regrets not learning an instrument, and he loves music. I tend to get a bit sensory-fussy about music unless a bunch of other preconditions are met, so I don't feel like music is a big part of my life, but damn if I can't play a dinky minuet like butter.

He has some talent, and it's been helpful cognitively for teaching him how to learn things by breaking the problem down into small pieces.

I've had this thought too, that I'm teaching them how to study and problem solve.

I took piano lessons from about the 3rd to the 6th grades, but it didn't stick at all and I don't recall particularly enjoying it or hating it.

On the other hand, maybe it had some effect, because I later got a lot into choir and singing groups in high school. Which had the distinction of being even dorkier than the orchestra or marching band.

Playing a kazoo out of your rear end would be nice.

A harmonica would be impressive.

An harmonica.

We've been forcing my kid to play piano for the past year. He claims to hate it and it can be tough to get him to practice, but he is really good and seems to be drawing on a well of natural ability.

He pretty much refuses to take part in all other non-YouTube related extracurricular, so I think we are going to stick with making him do it for a while.

good god this vale of tears

I do find it interesting that each of Hawaii, Pokey, and Ace seem to have signature styles, such that if I heard a recording of each of them playing the same song at the same age (plausible since they're all using the same books), I would know instantly who was playing.

24: The Giblets would be a great name for the band. Have you taught them to harmonize?

I suspect my youngest of having significant musical talent. The Calabat has practice exercises of clapping to a metronome and it's taken a lot of effort for him to get it. Little sister is quietly tapping her foot in perfect rhythm to his practicing and stringing rubber bands across the linen closet drawers at varying tensions "to make sounds."

Our plan is that they both have to study piano and practice until they are at the stage where playing seriously requires a much larger time commitment, and then we'll reevaluate.

How have I not been calling them the Giblets for the past ten years?

Our plan is that they both have to study piano and practice until they are at the stage where playing seriously requires a much larger time commitment,

FWIW, growing up we played through 12th grade without ever committing a different amount of time.

28: Right now he practices for twenty minutes, five times per week. I'm assuming that there's a point where progress would require more like hours a day, and might conflict with his other interests. But I honestly have no idea, never having studied formally.

27: I wasn't saying I made up the name. I was just thinking how with that band name and those nicknames they could be bigger than the Jackson 5 or the Osmonds.

I think it's a great name. Quit being humble.

29: My mom, with far more fortitude than I have, made all three of us practice 30 minutes a day until we went to college.

I make the kids sit down with me on the weekends. It goes better if I sit down with each of them both on Saturday and on Sunday. I've abandoned weekday practices and but even this is a wee bit soul-sucking for me.

31: Oh! I misread 27. I will never be humble again.

Is there a thing where popular family acts disproportionately come from obscure religions sects like the Jackson Five and the Osmonds?

I guess you could say those are our religion.

Tia:

This is out of my rear end, but I think if you want your kids to be musical, they should see you enjoying and committing to working on your musical capacity. Are you practicing your piano? Do they see you writing songs? Do you all sing together?

Truer words were never said. My parents pushed me into piano lessons for a few years starting in middle school. I resisted mightily, and eventually they relented. Years later, I wish I'd actually learned to play an instrument, and muse about trying to learn now. Only laziness prevents me, I guess. Tia's questions are apposite: there was basically no music in the house, no appreciation of music, and really, music just didn't matter. So why would I care about it? We emulate those around us, after all.

Also: "do as I say, not as I do". Kids are keen observers. I could tell I was being sold a snow job.

Last: I have a friend whose son is learning to play the guitar. I think that's awesome.

My parents let me choose an instrument to learn, after I declined to play any more pee wee softball. I picked drums. I did like playing them, but now I wish I'd picked guitar or violin. I think I would have been more likely to continue playing into adulthood.

Is there a thing where popular family acts disproportionately come from obscure religions sects like the Jackson Five and the Osmonds?

Obscure religious sects are more likely to have 5 children in a family, that's for sure.

I keep forgetting that because so many people I went to school with cave from such large families.

I bought Mara a drum kit for her 12th birthday and she's also doing percussion in the school band after finding absolutely joy in it at Girls Rock Camp over three summer. (Previously she had done one semester of Irish harp, for want of anything quieter than that as an option.) Nia took up clarinet last year and has a lovely tone, which is great because AFAICT from her singing she has a tin ear and so I was very relieved she didn't want an instrument she'd have to keep in tune. She's actually been asked to come help with Mara's band during practice tonight because she's one of the top players in the seventh grade. It's great to have something where she excels. She played keyboard at Girls Rock but refuses to do much with the piano in our dining room unless she's really, really bored.

I have not mandated music lessons, nor have I forced team sports, which my ex complains about regularly but doesn't rectify herself since all work should be my work. When someone needs physical therapy or occupational therapy, that's mandatory and sisters have to attend if that's how the schedule works. (And I do need to schedule an evaluation by PT/OT to make sure Mara is playing her drums in a way that won't damage her joints. Fun!)

They don't see me playing the violin for fun and in fact request I not do it if there's an Irish session we're attending or something (my parents host some, so it happens a lot) but we do all sing in the car sometimes and that's my absolute favorite.

Don't play; wish I did.

Seems to me the key to a kid enjoying learning a skill is that they are having fun with an adult who is also having fun. I can imagine that for myself in terms of playing catch and spending evenings doing sports with him. But I can't provide that musically. My kid's dad is taking guitar lessons for himself and graduated to being allowed to play along with the kids' ensemble (quietly, in the back). So presumably, eventually they'll both be in the kids' ensemble and that will be fun for them.

I played the trumpet from roughly the ages of 8 to 18. I think describing it as "forced" is fair. My sister played the violin for a similar span, and added the piano for a while, but I think she had to be forced into it less than I did. I've touched a trumpet maybe five times since then (and all in college, during vacations, as a way to keep in touch with my former school or teacher), and I think my sister's record is similar.

I don't resent having been forced into it; there are worse ways to keep a kid busy and get some extracurriculars. I don't miss it either, though, and I don't know what I could say I got out of it, besides some tunes to hum I wouldn't otherwise know. If I had a trumpet in my hand right now I could probably play reveille and maybe a C scale from muscle memory and that's about it.

Atossa enjoys swimming and dance class and we're happy to encourage those, but we've pretty much given up on forcing things like this. Soccer class she wasn't interested in just resulted in clinging to us or running away. French class after her one friend in it left just resulted in lots of fidgeting, silence, and clinging to me. Maybe we're given in too easily, but my attitude is, pushing too hard on stuff like this would just teach her to hate it.

If music is non-negotiable and the only question is which instrument, I'd suggest guitar or piano (assuming keyboards are affordable that are close enough to piano; if not, space and portability would be problems). Versatile instruments and popular. Even if I wanted to play the trumpet these days, I don't know where I could.

My son is a decent drummer and trombone player, and my daughter, at age 14, recently did a piano recital where most of the other kids were about 8 years old. She wasn't one of the better musicians, but nobody minded, including her and me.

We don't push them into anything, and that seems to have worked out well for us and them. There are only so many hours in a day, and many ways to challenge yourself.

I don't think there's anything super-special about music. I wish I could play piano or guitar, but instead, I've been spending significant time working on my mid-range jump shot, and getting a lot of satisfaction from my steady improvement.

I played an instrument from fourth grade through grad school*. It was an unpopular enough instrument that I was invited to things like district or county-wide groups, big band**, pit orchestras despite not being great and not really practicing aside from what we got in school rehearsals and a weekly outside individual lesson. So if you have to force your kid to play something make it something not a lot of kids play but that is needed in a variety of ensembles.

*Finally quit when I was in a big band alongside music majors, playing for a dance, and I realized my inferior level was quite exposed.
**Played backup in HS to a minor celebrity singer who was a local resident, for a school fundraiser. There are a couple pictures at the other place.

Ass kazoo.

42: Keyboards are the way to go at first (although we have a piano now), and I like piano because while it takes a lot of skill to coax different tone out of the keys, it doesn't take much skill at all to play notes that are in tune, which is not true of many other instruments.

My mom was basically a music major in college, went on and studied organ with a French composer in Paris, can sight read amazingly complex pieces with ease. She had a baby grand piano and played it regularly (still does so in her early 80s) so I definitely grew up with it, and remember when I was small enough to be in the cave-like space under the piano. Really sounds good like that. I still like a good Schubert impromptu. That did not translate to similar dedication on my part.

I played trumpet from, I dunno, 3rd grade to 10th? I got passable but had no passion for it and dropped it in high school. Now in middle age I doodle around on the piano, never really making serious progress because I only do it on school breaks and mostly if nobody else is around. I sure wish I could play just one Scott Joplin rag competently. There's probably nothing to be learned from my story.

Our kids are older than Heebie's, and kid 1, I swear, just drips musicality. When he was young enough not to care about anyone hearing, he sang great. He played saxophone (his choice) for a few years and also got pretty good at that. He sits down at the upright piano we have and just messes around and it all sounds great. He does this like once every 8 weeks for 90 seconds. We have never been able to get him interested in working to develop what talent he has. He signed up for piano class as a high school one-semester elective and what he plays is beautiful, he starts throwing in the correct pedal (not anything they taught him of course, just figured it out) but again, he has no interest in working at it.

Kid 2 more of a tin ear, things didn't come naturally, but he gets obsessed and competitive and will REALLY work at things so when a music teacher inspired him he took up violin and is now the best musician in the family by far, youngest kid in all-county orchestra etc etc also picked up cello but now he seems to be losing interest. We don't enforce much practicing, mostly let him set the agenda but both kids have become more and more screen addicted, so we may insist kid 2 keep up with music until he decides on some non-electronic activity to replace it.

So I think exposing them to the options is probably good. I don't know that it makes much difference (in our family, ymmv) whether the parents are being musical. We have given our kids pretty free rein on their choices (we will rent you an instrument and pay for lessons, but if you give it 6 months or a year and don't like it, you can quit then).

By the way you may remember our family drama of expulsion over threat/bad joke made by kid 2. I can't remember when I last updated things so here goes: Kid 2 is now in "alternative school" as a route to getting back to regular school. Things are much more stable at home because 1) no home schooling, which was really hard on Kid's Mom and didn't go all that well, 2) Kid 2 back on a regular schedule, and 3) no false hope to tear us apart trying to fix things by opposing a powerful system in which we are powerless. Kid 2 will, I guess, have to do summer school to make up the time missed due to expulsion, then he will go on to high school next year. After messing up our family life for months, and messing up the family's summer....oh, I can't start complaining about it again, it will just bring back the bitterness and upset. Anyway, things are better now. On we go with life. And fuck the county school board, now and forever. Oops, slipped up there.

Glad it sounds like you've at least got a clear path forward, chill, although you were hard done by.

47 last: Glad you seem to be through the worst of that. Thanks for the update!

I'm glad things are at least looking like there's an end.

Good for you for finding a path through it.

That sounds maddening and horrible, but at least like it probably won't turn into permanent damage for the kid.

Argh. That story is the worst. I'm glad you guys are in a place of stability and routine about it.

I think that the "this is a normal thing for people in our family" is important, including modeling behavior. In our house, Dad sang constantly and eventually joined a church choir. During a brief step-marriage, my brother and I were compelled to take piano lessons, just like our step-siblings.

After resisting for almost 2 years, Dad finally told me that I could quit, but I'd have to tell the piano teacher myself. I think he anticipated that as a much bigger impediment -- normally, I hated to disappoint adults or quit, but I quit without qualms as quickly as I could. (My brother freeloaded on my efforts and quit the following week.)

It wasn't terrible, and most of the difficulties were more related to the step-situation than intrinsic. But I do have terrible rhythm, so it was probably always going to be shoving a boulder uphill for me -- enough things came easily that I had no desire to stick with something where I'd have to be publicly terrible.

I took Suzuki violin lessons at 5-6 ish. I don't remember whose idea it was or if I had to practice. Then I took piano lessons by my own request ages 10-13 and didn't practice enough. I also played bass in the school music program and that continued through high school; I was in lots of groups & ensembles, took private lessons, and was generally pretty serious about it. My parents did not care what I did but would only pay for private lessons if I was practicing enough to satisfy whatever teacher was involved. I am glad I have the background but also glad it was all my own choosing. It would have been a waste of everyone's time and money if anyone had tried to force me into it.

I also had my last chemo session today. Hooray!

School music started in fifth grade here

55 last:. Hooray!

55: That's good news. I was thinking about that but afraid to ask.

Hooray Messily and Chill!

I'm glad You guy through the chemo.

My paternal aunt, and godmother (the lefty that I recently mentioned in another thread, who went to a convent school where the nuns tried to force her to be right-handed), passed some very demanding tests on the piano with the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. But then got married and had babies at a very young age, and so much for her musical career...

My mother went through a period where she thought it might be 'classy' or something to have her children take up music. So I had 'voice lessons' from a Mr. Morris, originally from Wales, who used to come to our house in the dead of winter, and then scold me for not having practiced, with icicles almost hanging off his hat: I mean it was that cold. Poor man! He no doubt had a family to support, and I was a very poor student indeed.

Glad to hear things are looking up, Messily and chill.

All three kids in my family were forced to take piano lessons through elementary school, and all of us hated it, and quit as soon as we were allowed. This meant years of arguing and yelling and cheating on practicing (I eventually broke the kitchen timer by repeatedly twisting it the wrong way), which I don't know why my parents put up with, especially since lessons were not cheap and money was not plentiful.

Anyway, years later, I'm glad and grateful. I started playing again as an adult, and practice just about every day now. Piano also gave me enough background to learn guitar and ukulele. Playing music, both alone and with other people, is a core part of my life and gives me a lot of pleasure on a daily basis.

On the other hand, my sister almost never plays and I think the experience made my brother hate music entirely, like Captain von Trapp before the nun showed up.

Stockholm syncopation.

They were Austrian.

xelA has started flute lessons, he's also expressed an interest in drums (because it's cool, and his friend B*nham [really, that's his name] plays drums [I assume this is not a coincidence]), and guitar (because I play guitar). At the moment, he hardly practices, and we don't make him. If he gets more into it, I guess we might, but all our "do this" energies are focused on reading, multiplication, and writing, so we have no bandwidth to also make him practice flute. He does seem to have a very good sense of rhythm, so maybe at some point, drums or guitar (or bass) might work for him. I don't think either my wife or I are the pushy music parent types. One of the mums at his school is a Professor at a very famous music school, and her kids have been having piano and violin lessons with her graduate students since they were about 3.

I sometimes wish I'd started playing younger, but many of the people who I know who did, hated it. My wife took serious music lessons (at the local conservatory) until she was about 16, and she has no interest in ever singing or picking up an instrument again. I took up guitar at about 14, because I wanted to be in a rock band, so I diligently stuck at it for years, and it still gives me a lot of pleasure. There have been periods where I practiced a lot (multiple hours per day), and periods where I go a week or even two without picking it up, but that's entirely my choice, and no-one has ever made me. I'm a pretty decent player, but by no means a virtuoso,* but the people I know who are virtuosos, or sort of around that level on guitar, all started in their early teens, too, so I don't know if I'd have gained a lot by starting earlier.

I took some an exam (grade 7 on classical guitar) about 10 years ago, just because I wanted to, but never had time to do the theory exams I'd have needed to do grade 8 and the higher diplomas, although I had the physical chops to have done so. Also, sight singing terrified me. I _really_ cannot hold a note, even though I'm able to identify a slightly misintonated guitar, or a very slightly off note on an instrument, with no problems.

* at some point, I'd like to record myself shredding some Yngwie type stuff, just as an exercise in idiocy.

Old Thread is Old but I'm just gonna say if they have any desire to do musical stuff later in life they will be very grateful to have keyboard skills that they got when they were young enough that it was just annoying and not impossible. I have no idea about cognitive stuff but honestly, I wish (knowing full well that I was too much of a brat about doing things I didn't want to do for it to have been a bearable task to make me stick with piano or even practice the goddamn viola) that my parents had done the things mentioned in parentheses. I now own a harpsichord and am trying to learn to play it and it's very slow going because I have always half-assed every kind of musical skill like I've half-assed basically everything in life. You won't be able to stop your kids from half-assing things if that is their truest nature, but you can at least, as the saying goes, lead a horticulture.

(But I mean yes, pianos are loud. Maybe you could make them all play clavichord instead. They're very quiet and you can obtain one for like $2k on ebay, as I know from relentless stress-clavichord-shopping. Then they can also learn the unique art of Bebung, which is like vibrato on a keyboard instrument, supposing you have purchased an UNFRETTED clavichord for them. Anyway, clavichords: quiet. And they went out of fashion around the time of what, Clementi or something? So you won't have to worry about your kids playing Liszt at all hours, which would be really loud and disruptive.)

Um, sorry about last line of 67. I wasn't calling any of your kids whores, god knows; I just always liked that little attributed-to-Dorothy-Parker joke and shoehorned it in.

Smearcase!

as I know from relentless stress-clavichord-shopping
As one does.

1. I laughed at horticulture.

2. That's quaint that you think the piano is what makes our house noisy.

You can get a clavichord for cheap at the start, but the maintenance costs add up quickly.

I just felt like coming back to offer more ex recto opinions: I haven't had any trouble learning voice as a grownup, and I've had trouble committing to piano but the time I was paying someone to teach me (realistically that's what it takes for me to fully commit) he thought it was easy to teach me and he was ambitious for what I'd be able to do eventually.

On the other hand, I am totally convinced that there is no substitute for having been athletic as a child and no matter how much I exercise or try to learn new physical skills (a lot compared to most people I don't meet through physical activity of some sort), some pretty low, hard ceilings got established by my early inactivity. So IMO you're already doing something more important for them than music lessons.

My regrets are that my parents didn't give me the things I asked for, and this whole taking lessons thing* was one of the ways that my childhood was less than middle class. Now that I go to ballet so much, I have even more occasion to remember that I wanted to do this as a child and couldn't, and it would be so nice if I had any foundation built at all.

*I mean, I could say slightly more complicated things about this, but whatever, it will just make this comment long.

74.2: I'm not sure about that because causation could run the other way. Anyway, my parents pushed me into lots of athletic stuff and I pushed them to stop because I sucked at it.

My overall position is the same as yours. Just support what the kid actually is enthusiastic about. The most important things to make sure someone gets are diligence in pursuit of the things they do care about, frustration tolerance, openness to learning, etc.

But I'm pretty sure that in my case at least some of the causation ran in the direction I'm talking about. I expressed interest in ballet as a young child and my mom told me I was too big boned. I asked for karate classes when I was around ten and my mom just didn't for no earthly reason; we could have come up with the money. (We talked about this recently and she said "one of the karate teachers was mean and I didn't know which one and I didn't think you should have a mean teacher so I never got you the lessons.") If either of those things had happened there's at least a chance I'd be in a different place today.

It's true I was never a "natural athlete", was physically overcautious, etc., but my only exposure was ever in the punishing P.E. class environment and I never got an opportunity to do the things that would naturally interest me in an environment where you're progressively taught skills, which is not what P.E. was like. I have no recollection growing up of ever being in an environment where I got actual progressive instruction on how to do something physical, instead of just being plopped somewhere and instructed to do it, with public rankings (often explicit) being formed immediately. I mean, I know people who didn't find academic subjects easy also find the public ranking humiliating. I just think the difference is that school does instruct you in *how* to read, etc. There isn't just a command to perform.

It's so great to be in adult environments for physical activity, where people facilitate a growth mindset and no one is so fixated on what you are good at, but instead what you enjoy. I really wish we were better at doing that across all domains for kids; somehow it seems like there's so much emphasis when you're young on discovering some "talent" and staying in that lane. I also have a huge bug up my butt about this because I spent the first three decade of my life hearing people tell me I couldn't sing, and now I increasingly can.

I don't much believe in "natural" anything, really. The things I grew up being good at were mostly things that were modeled by my parents and that I could do alone without any coordination effort from my parents (writing, drawing), or were progressively instructed in school (like math). But I do believe in sensitive periods for some things and I dunno, again, this isn't any kind of authoritative proclamation but my intuition is that the sensitive period for physical stuff is really important, and IME for music it's less so. Maybe I'm more of a "natural" musician but boy is that not what anyone ever used to tell me when I was young.

I guess I wrote a long comment after all.

I've moved on to wondering how loud it would to be kill a deer with a baseball bat.

Anyway, I grew up running around in a vast yard with a gang of other kids, plus swim team, plus biking everywhere until I turned 15, plus junior high sports. I've always been slow and uncoordinated. I took swim lessons for years and was on swim team for at least six years. I never once figured out how to do the kick on the crawl. I figured that out by accident when I was about thirty years old.

I think the deer can read. It looked in the window and then left.

Teo!

76: I think the musical window is real, but it's hard to say because the bar seems to be "can you become a professional as an adult" to which the answer is no, but that's also the true answer for 99% of kids who start lessons. As a middle aged mediocre athlete I sometimes wonder if I'd be a little better if I'd played sports as a kid. I was active, but not allowed to do any dance or sports and I definitely felt like I missed out. There's no way my swim stroke is ever going to be decent. Currently cycling seems to be the way to go for fit but uncoordinated people.