did someone muck with the backend here

Re: Guest Post - Least Favorite State

1

SC hates Ohio?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:09 AM
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As interesting would be the reverse map, showing which states are hated by most other states. No one seems to hate Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Hawaii or most of the Mountain West. North and South Dakota hate each other, West Virginia and Virginia hate each other, but North and South Carolina seem to get on OK (no one hates North Carolina at all). Florida hates itself which seems plausible.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:09 AM
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No one hates Nevada?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:14 AM
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Even I don't hate Nevada.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:15 AM
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I don't hate Nevada either. But it has a certain reputation.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:16 AM
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Possibly if you're close enough to Nevada to hate it (or indeed to have heard of it) you have California at hand to hate instead. A lot of the smaller states may simply be benefitting from the fact that no one else in the country actually knows they're there. Similarly I doubt there are many British people posting racist memes aimed at Slovenians.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:17 AM
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But it has a certain reputation.

Experimental aircraft, starkly beautiful desert landscape, high-stakes poker and chorus girls. Why would anyone hate Nevada?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:18 AM
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The same thing with cities would be interesting. Presumably DC would win by a statute mile, but the runner-up contest might be intense.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:22 AM
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1: Clemson and Ohio State college football. Most of this is related to college football.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:22 AM
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I can see at least one reason.


Posted by: Opinionated Mo Green | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:23 AM
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State Number hated by
CA 9
TX 4
FL 3
AL 3
NY 2

All others 1 or 0.

Four of those are also the four most populous states. So it's possible that people hate states if they've met someone dickish from that state (regardless of how many nice people from that state you've met), and there are just more Californians around so you're more likely to have met a dickish Californian, even if all states are proportionately equally dickish.
The exception is Alabama (only 23rd in population). And it's also striking that no one seems to hate Pennsylvania, the 5th most populous state.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:24 AM
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I can see at least one reason.

You'd be able to see two if that thing hadn't happened.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:25 AM
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Alabama is hated because it is winning college football games against colleges in those states.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:28 AM
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And because it sucks, objectively.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:28 AM
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New Jersey wins!


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:39 AM
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Take your buzzkilling statistical literacy somewhere else, 11.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:42 AM
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Pennsylvania is full of assholes. It's not hated by any state because Penn State has only one Big Ten championship since they stopped supporting child molestation.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:51 AM
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Amusing that MA is the only state listed that hates NY. From MA's (mostly Boston's) point of view, we are in this intense competition with NY over all sorts of thing (sports used to be the big one but since NY doesn't have any good sports teams any more, that's less of an issue now). There's all this b.s. about Boston competing with NY as a "world-class city," whatever that means. From NY's point of view: Boston who?


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:54 AM
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8: I've never heard anyone express hatred towards the District - at least not its residents. They are an oppressed group who have to pay high taxes to cover local services because the Feds don't contribute and who lack representation.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:55 AM
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I wonder if NY would make a stronger showing as second most hated. We've definitely got an effect going where we're sheltering behind the much more entertainingly hateable NJ.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:59 AM
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You could run ads reminding people that Trump and Rudy are from there.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:03 AM
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Hating on Alabama is definitely people mistaking the University of's football team for the state.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:15 AM
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If Nebraska wasn't losing so badly, it would be in a similar place to where Alabama is there. Probably hated by not just Iowa, but also MO and KS and maybe CO.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:20 AM
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My daughter went to school with a girl called Nevada. No-one hated her.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:27 AM
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Its not that Maryland doesn't hate Pennsylvania and their perfidious Mason-Dixon "Line", its that Virginia is hated more.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:41 AM
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Hating Michigan is an insane tradition here. The week before the GAME they cross out the "M"s in street signs all over campus. It's not unusual to see t-shirts and bumper stickers with sayings like "I root for Ohio State and who ever is playing Michigan" or "Muck Fichigan!". My wife's parents had a book of "Michigan" jokes -- it was pretty much the Polack jokes that I remembered from elementary school with Michiganders in the place of Polacks.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:04 AM
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And honestly, you can't prove that is the best band in the land. "The land" isn't even defined.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:12 AM
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Some rivalries.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:27 AM
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Yeah, there's no question about the college sports implications.

I'd argue that with Maryland-Virginia, there is resentment on the Maryland side for Virginia's slack attitude on issues that affect DC-MD-VA -- especially transportation issues. (The enmity isn't returned because Maryland doesn't suck that way.)

New York isn't widely hated (despite the general, inaccurate derogation of New Yorkers) because the city if objectively terrific, and upstate is fine without exciting any jealousy. I chose to live in New Jersey for four years -- and it was great! So close to New York!

It's interesting to see the Missouri-Kansas enmity. My general perception is that they are more like each other than they are like the other neighboring states. Maybe they see each other as competitors.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:31 AM
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Florida hates itself which seems plausible.

I mean, look at the last 2 governors.


Posted by: Swope FM | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:32 AM
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I see that Maryland isn't consequential enough to be hated by anyone. I though that at least Virginia might hate us, but they apparently decided that they hate West Virginia more.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 9:41 AM
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I'm sure there are more Californians that hate Nevada than there are Nevadans that hate California. The California thing in the rest of the West isn't sports, it's migration. Migrants that have a bunch of money, and a huge sense of entitlement, but I repeat myself.

I'm a little surprised, I guess, that it's enough to overcome Colorado/Texas or Wyoming/Colorado. I suppose a certain number of clueless celebrities can make the difference, even if they stay in place with their sense of entitlement.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 10:05 AM
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29 If you live in certain parts of Maryland and commute into the District, there are way too many cars in your way with Virginia plates.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 10:08 AM
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The patterns in the South and Midwest are mostly about college football, as Moby said. Charley is also right that the California-hatred in the interior West is mostly about migration, though there's some general culture-war resentment there too. New Mexico and Alaska both hate Texas for idiosyncratic historical reasons that are independent of each other but strikingly parallel in some ways.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:36 AM
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Why do Alaskans hate Texas? Competitive about petroleum?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:41 AM
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Penis size.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:44 AM
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All the Texans who rushed in during the oil boom and totally transformed the state.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:47 AM
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36 and 37 are both plausible explanations.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:49 AM
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38: The NYT Editorial Board are my inspiration.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 11:51 AM
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This warms my heart for obvious reasons. As I recall from an argument here a million years ago, the thing that makes one state in particular extra hateable is that its residents just assume everyone loves it. It is kind of the Mister Peanut Butter of states, that unknown state that I am talking about.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:02 PM
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Smearcase!


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:06 PM
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My favorites are the state pairs locked into isolated dyads of hate:
North Dakota > South Dakota
Nebraska > Iowa
Kansas > Missouri
but you really do have to get a long way from California before those local patterns take over. Arizona and Nevada would have given the same answers my whole lifetime, but I bet the extended eastward reach is more recent.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:37 PM
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That was supposed to be bidirectional <> but tags.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:39 PM
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Nebraska is greater than Iowa makes perfect sense. I doubt Kansas is better than Missouri.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:40 PM
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My experience of Missouri is the Kansas City Airport and the Waffle House in St. Joseph. I probably haven't spent any time in Kansas since 1987.

So, I guess I could be wrong.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:50 PM
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43: Too late; you've taken sides.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 12:52 PM
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I don't know, Missouri is pretty bad. I don't like the way they hog Federal Reserve Banks. Why would a state need two?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:00 PM
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Some of these are sports rivalries, but all the California haters are actually people moving here from California haters.

Illinois is really two states: Chicago and "Downstate" and the map should show Downstate hating Chicago. Chicago is itself two cities, the North Side and the South Side, and the South Side hates the North Side. Who does the North Side hate? I don't know. Green Bay, I guess.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:04 PM
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I have my arm in a sling from shoulder surgery this morning. Apples dictation software really sucks really sucks.. There are lots of random and repeated the whole sentences and phrases.. And punctuation marks obviously.. On proofreading an email I sentOn proofreading an email I sent to the organizer to the organizer of a conference of a conference hi just spoke at hi just spoke at, I spotted and instance and instance where it had replaced where it had replaced "I am sending you an outline of my talk" with "I am sending you an outline of my cock."

Glad I caught that one, I guess?


Posted by: chill | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:23 PM
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So I could enjoy it, I mean.. I didn't replace it or anything


Posted by: chill | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:27 PM
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When I was growing up outside Pittsburgh, West Virginia was our least favorite, with Ohio a bland second. And of course Pennsylvania east of Harrisburg was part of snooty Philadelphia except for Scranton and Wilkes Barre, where at least there were some coal mines. New Jersey was a distant vision, known only for the Shore.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:43 PM
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all the California haters are actually people moving here from California haters.

Well no.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 2:53 PM
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The recording program on pixel phones on the other hand is spookily good at transcription. Very bad indeed at punctuation but that's a skill which requires semantic understanding. Doesn't mark the distinction between voices. But really really good when one person is speaking to it clearly.
I am sending you an outline of my cock but what I deliver will probably be longer.


Posted by: NW | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:06 PM
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Well have to cut it down for publication then.


Posted by: Conference organiser | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:07 PM
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48. Mundelein, Gurnee, or Waukegan type places maybe. Possibly Portage or Eau Clair or as you say Green Bay, whose emigrants populate the towers and four-flats of the north side.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:16 PM
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where it had replaced where it had replaced "I am sending you an outline of my talk" with "I am sending you an outline of my cock."

"It may be long and hard, but I do hope attendees will stay for the payoff at the end."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:29 PM
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It would help if the talk were about submarines.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:41 PM
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51: I am picturing hordes of Yinzers wandering the Strip District, muttering, "Gym, tan, laundry."


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:42 PM
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Now we just go there to build condos.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 3:44 PM
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At least here in NW Arkansas, we hate Oklahoma FAR more than Alabama.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 4:29 PM
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The upper midwest made me laugh to look at. Indiana is certainly hated by IL, IL hated by WI, and MI and OH hate each other. So, yep. In WI, it's the rich IL residents with summer homes who occasion hatred. FIBs. Fuckin' Illinois Bastards. Or FIB-WBs, which is FIB-With Boat. This is the most amazingly petty hatred I know of. Illinois-Indiana is definitely not college football related. Michigan-Ohio definitely is.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:17 PM
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Oh, and I will wait for teo, but I thought Alaska-Texas was more smug disdain than hatred.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:20 PM
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Speaking of Pittsburgh things that happen near downtown, it only cost $88,000 to get the bus out of the sinkhole. That's cheap enough we should do it more often.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:33 PM
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which is FIB-With Boat

Why couldn't FIB just be "Fucking Illinois Boater"?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:35 PM
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I guess maybe the "bastard" part is important.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:36 PM
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61: A dear friend from Wisconsin does a devastating imitation of her parents slagging Illinois visitors "for taking advantage of our recreational resources." Except I think she's a believer...


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 7:42 PM
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64/65: It's commonly used when on the road in WI driving 5 mph under the speed limit, and a car with IL plates blazes past at 10, maybe 15, over. The -WB indicates that the speeding car is towing a boat. But yeah, all bastards. Speeding bastards with their big city ways and no respect.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:29 PM
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What they do to pizza shows their lack of humanity.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-21-20 8:41 PM
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||
Quick probability question:
Say you have a two-player contest in which each player rolls two dice and the higher total wins. Obviously each player, A or B, is equally likely to win. Now say there's a rule change: A gets to roll three dice and pick the best two. B still only rolls two. So if A rolls 2,4 and 5, he picks 4 and 5 for a total of 9.
By how much does this rule change increase A's chance of winning? My gut instinct is that it triples it; A can now choose three possible pairs of dice, each of which has a chance of beating B. But then those pairs aren't independent of each other; it's not like A gets to roll two dice, roll them twice more, and pick his best result.

Any thoughts?
|>


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 2:24 AM
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69: I assume you're looking more for a satisfying probabilistic explanation, but I simulated the results and it increased A's chances of winning from ~44% (equal to B's) to ~62%.

Ties oddly seem to drop a hair, from ~11.2% in the fair scenario to ~10.5% in the A-weighted one.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 2:57 AM
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Nice one - thanks Minivet. Is there a simple rule of thumb for generalising that? What if A has four dice? What if B has three and A has five? Not looking for exact probabilities, or a satisfying explanation of why, just a rough idea of the numbers.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 3:13 AM
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I don't know if this is a pattern, but it looks like adding the third die to A increased A's chances of winning by about two-fifths, and adding a fourth die increases it by a further one-fifth. (44% becomes 62%, 62% becomes 74%.) Can't add a fifth die at present, too many formulas.

Overall, if A has four and B has two, it becomes A 74%, B 17%, ties 8%, but then if A has four and B has three, it goes to A 58%, B 29%, ties 12%. So adding a die to B increases B's odds by almost three-quarters.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 3:33 AM
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Thanks very much!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 3:36 AM
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the South Side hates the North Side. Who does the North Side hate?

This is so true, but it hurts when you say it out loud, ogged.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 4:51 AM
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It's easier if you assume a spherical die.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 5:34 AM
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||

NMM to Terry Jones.

|>


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 5:56 AM
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The reputation of Maryland in Virginia is largely based on Maryland crabs/crabcakes (good! or so I'm told) and Maryland drivers (terrible, awful, the worst).


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 6:32 AM
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O the south side hates the north side
And the north side hates the south side.
All the wrong sides hate the right sides-
It's American as apple pie!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 6:44 AM
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But during national neighborhood week,
national neighborhood week
...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 7:20 AM
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Who does the North Side hate?

The goat/Steve Bartman.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 7:28 AM
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Another southsider heard from. I think that was true, but now that they won one, the Bartman episode has become part of the lore of suffering that makes the win even sweeter. I would bet that Bartman would get free drinks wherever he's recognized on the north side.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 9:43 AM
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77: A few years ago on a trip to the Eastern shore, we took a day trip on a converted oystering boat. The captain recounted that it was still part of Chesapeake Bay lore that there used to be seriously violent clashes between Virginians and Marylanders over fishing rights in various parts of the bay.

But the Virginians apparently still hate West Virginia more than us.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 9:48 AM
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They gave him a championship ring! Did not know that.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 9:48 AM
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84

19
8: I've never heard anyone express hatred towards the District - at least not its residents. They are an oppressed group who have to pay high taxes to cover local services because the Feds don't contribute and who lack representation.

Nobody hates DC's residents except racists (which is a pretty big group, but they have lots of targets of their hate, so anyways). It would still rank pretty high on a "what city do you have?" poll because of people confusing it with the federal government.

As for taxes, it's not that I like not having statehood, but there are tradeoffs. My co-workers in Virginia had to pay for daycare for their 3- and 4-year-olds or quit their jobs. I didn't.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 9:57 AM
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82: I think I was on the same boat last fall.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 10:04 AM
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Oh, and I will wait for teo, but I thought Alaska-Texas was more smug disdain than hatred.

There's definitely smug disdain, but plenty of hatred too. Often combined.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 12:11 PM
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Random complaint uttered into the void: My son made his lunch today and tried to open the can of tuna from the bottom. After failing, he told me I bought the wrong kind of tuna instead of looking at the other side.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 5:27 PM
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I FIND THAT COMMENT ANNOYING.


Posted by: OPINIONATED VOID | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 6:19 PM
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SEE, BECAUSE WHEN YOU COMPLAIN INTO THE VOID, THE VOID COMPLAINS INTO YOU.


Posted by: OPINIONATED STANDPIPE'S BLOG | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 6:20 PM
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I will print your complaint and swallow the paper then.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 6:28 PM
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84: I just thought it was lame that the Federal Government's contribution to local government is putting people convicted of crimes in DC in Federal prisons, the site of the District's prison in VA having been sold off to developers.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 01-22-20 8:08 PM
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Further to 72, I just Monte Carlo'd it in Excel which is what I should have done to start with...


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-23-20 6:15 AM
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I did some work on it by hand. In the fair game, of 1296 permutations each side wins 575 and there are 146 ties. There are n2 ties at each number where n is the number of permutations for 2 die (so 2 & 12, 1 tie; 3 & 11, 4 ties; 4 & 10, 9 ties; 5 & 9 25 ties; 6 & 8, 36 ties; 7 49 ties).

The best of 3 game can be viewed as playing the fair game and if the advantaged player does not win they can roll to see if they improve on their lowered number dice. I was setting it up to calculate the probabilities using that model but got bored. Did not find any general formula. I did get through the number of ties that become wins, but of course there are losses that become ties (presumably fewer). In the limit of greater advantage ties would approach 1/36.

Also had the thought of casting it as a game where the advantaged player rolls two die while his opponent rolls one and then picks the highest of his two to combine with a third roll but that is not an equivalent game. The higher of his two die
was 2n-1
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 7
5 9
6 11

which I fond satisfying for some reason.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-23-20 6:40 AM
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A second way of casting the game is as three fair games -- advantaged player's 1 & 2 against opponent, 2 & 3 and 1 & 3; with the advantaged player getting to choose the best result of the three.
Did not really make it more tractable due to correlation in results between the three "games". (Three actual independent 2-die games in that fashion are much more advantageous for the advantaged player; I calculate ~83% win and ~8.5% for ties and losses.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-23-20 7:16 AM
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Aides on how to not become terminally infuriated by impeachment and the world by JP Stormcrow.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-23-20 7:17 AM
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The fact that, unreformed Cresapites like spike aside, no one hates Pennsylvania the most is the most damning indication of how much Pennsylvania sucks. (Written from Pennsylvania, but the wrong side of it; visiting family.)

I tried to analyze the dice game algebraically but it's tricksy. A similar reformation that I used is: view it as the original 2 v 2 game, but then the first player gets to roll an additional die and optionally replace the lower of the first two with it. I thought this would make it easier to partition the event space, since you can easily set aside the situations where player 1 would win anyway (the prevalence of which can be found by calculating the probability of a tie in the original game, subtracting from 1 and dividing by two, but even that's a bit of a pain). But it didn't help much.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 01-23-20 7:29 AM
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Given my inferior algebraic skills I didn't even get that far...
It's for another board game (military strategy) I'm working on. Need to have a rough idea of the odds of winning various unequal contests. The dice part of it is pretty simple; the novelty is that things go wrong constantly - vehicles break down, troops attack in the wrong direction, floods wash away roads etc - making it much more realistic and frustrating.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-24-20 7:45 AM
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Ajay, have you been in touch with James Palmer about the boardgames you've been making? He's a serious long-time expert level board gamer as I'm sure you know.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-25-20 1:02 AM
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