Re: Reading group

1

My technique for making my stepdaughter wake up is threatening to sing. This song might work even better.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 5:37 AM
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I shout "Is our children learning?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 5:51 AM
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Interestingly the song was written by Barry McGuire best know for "Eve of Destruction." He apparently became a don again Christian in the early '70s. Also the McGuire of ""McGuinn and McGuire, couldn't get no higher" from the Mamas and Papas' "Creeque Alley."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 6:41 AM
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At my summer camp the counselors woke us up with the annoying "birdies" song, leaving out the verse about how cozily the birdies are sleeping.

way UP in the sky!
The BIG BIRDIES FLY
while Down in the NEST
the LITTLE BIRDIES REST

the BRIGHT SUN COMES UP
The dew falls away
GOOD MORNING! GOOD MORNING!
the little birdies say

By the time they got to "GOOD MORNING! GOOD MORNING!" we were required to also say GOOD MORNING! GOOD MORNING!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 6:55 AM
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My childhood nightmare wake-up song was "Good Morning" from Singin' in the Rain. And now it's stuck in my head THANKS HEEBIE.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:20 AM
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4. Shhhhhhh...... THEY'RE SLEEPING!


Posted by: Rance | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:25 AM
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Did you go to the same camp?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:27 AM
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I think the song is omnipresent at summer camps and scouts, but using it to actually wake people up may not be.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:32 AM
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I never heard it at scout camping.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:37 AM
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4: We used it as a speech and debate warm-up.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:42 AM
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To the OP. If anyone's tempted by Politics Is For Power I recommend Eitan Hersh's podcast appearance with Ezra Klein. That made me more interested in the book than the original article had.

Also, the other book I'd been tempted to suggest is Secondhand by Adam Minter. IT isn't a typical unfogged book in that it's pure journalism rather than offering a thesis or plan, but I enjoyed it and, selfishly, was interested in talking about it. It touches on a number of interesting topics.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:48 AM
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For wake-up music at a summer camp it seems like the title score from Friday the 13th, played at very high volume, would be the obvious choice.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:50 AM
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There's also some song that every one of my students seem to know, which I never learned as a kid but it's fun to use in class when they're droopy:

I'm alive alert awake enthusiastic!
I'm alive alert awake enthusiastic!
I'm alive alert awake,
I'm awake alert alive
I'm alive alert awake enthusiastic!

It's to the tune of If You're Happy And You Know It.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:56 AM
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I would literally murder you.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:58 AM
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I'd be in for the Minter book, maybe for the Hersh book.

Someone mentioned rereading Austerlitz in another thread-- I loved the book, hard for me to express concise thoughts about it though, which if it was a professional interest would suggest that the work of doing that would pay off in clarity and new ideas.

I'm reading Richard White's Republic for Which It Stands which is great, but is an expensive 900 page book. Also Notre Dame de Paris which is making me think a lot about the development of the novel from 18th to 19th century. Don't expect those will be broadly appealing. Oh and Von Glahn's book about Chinese economic history.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 7:59 AM
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I'm vaguely worried that the Hersch book will be infuriating because it's saying that everything is the fault of the people who follow the right sources of news.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 8:20 AM
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You know better. Trump voters are mindless. What they do is your fault because you tried to do something useful.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 8:25 AM
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I'm vaguely worried that the Hersch book will be infuriating because it's saying that everything is the fault of the people who follow the right sources of news.

I'm worried about that as well, but the podcast interview made me feel better about it. I don't remember specifics, except that it sounded like it had more positive examples of "here are good things to do" and not just carping about keyboard warriors. But that was my concern.

I can definitely recommend the Minter as an easy read which, as I say, I found myself wanting to talk about.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 8:26 AM
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14. You'd have to get there before me.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 8:44 AM
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Heebie is did you finish The Power? I finished it last night. Mixed thoughts although the last sentence was a good kicker.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:04 AM
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This interview with Hersch has a transcript and gives a sense of what both looks interesting about the book and the ways in which it might be tiresome.

Eitan Hersh: I guess I'm trying to bring back a non-corrupt version of machine politics. A machine oftentimes just like a group of people who are better organized than you are, who you don't like. When I describe this 98-year-old man who controls a thousand votes and they say he has a machine and he's a boss. And then the story of this man is that he, like his community has real issues. They are a community of elderly refugees who have issues related to transportation, just getting around town, and they have issues related to national immigration policy. And this guy organized them so they all vote together and they all vote his way. And he does that not through any kind of corrupt practice other than building rapport. You might call that a machine, but that is how political power works.

So I want people to see why that is both normal and good. It's not a dirty form of politics. I also in the book as you know, offer some, I would say stronger proposals for parties to engage in the provision of goods and services in exchange for building rapport with voters. One example I have is local and state party committees offering elder care and childcare on emergency basis to folks as a way to convey in the most material immediate way possible that they care about voters and that they're there to serve them.

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:08 AM
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Because I'm so fucking quarantine basic I'm rereading Wolf Hall so I can read the new one. It sucks, every three paragraphs I think "my god that was so well written" and space out thinking about her craft and the historical context. I'm making no progress whatsoever.

A podcast I listen to is basically a bad books bookclub; now we're doing Digital Fortress, the novel Dan Brown wrote before he broke big. It's truly, epically bad, even worse if you know anything about cryptography, but it hits the sweet spot of being awful in an enjoyable way. Brown has this habit of explaining things that don't need explaining, but getting it completely wrong in every possible way.

Some serious political science reading would be nice, though. I enjoyed when we read...I think one of Adam Tooze's books? I'd be up for doing that again.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:13 AM
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20: no, I make very slow progress... I think I'm close to the end - everything seems to be falling apart in a finale ramp up way.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:18 AM
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I read so many serious political science books. I'm not going back.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:18 AM
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22: Oh, dear Christ. Digital Fortress is literally the worst book I have ever read. And it's even more gruesomely awful if you're a translator.

For two hours, Becker interpreted an endless stream of Mandarin symbols. But each time he gave them a translation, the cryptographers shook their heads in despair. Apparently the code was not making sense. Eager to help, Becker pointed out that all the characters they'd shown him had a common trait-they were also part of the Kanji language. Instantly the bustle in the room fell silent. The man in charge, a lanky chain-smoker named Morante, turned to Becker in disbelief.
"You mean these symbols have multiple meanings?"
Becker nodded. He explained that Kanji was a Japanese language based on modified Chinese characters. He'd been giving Mandarin translations because that's what they'd asked for.
"Jesus Christ." Morante coughed. "Let's try the Kanji."
Like magic, everything fell into place.
The cryptographers were duly impressed, but nonetheless, they still made Becker work on the characters out of sequence. "It's for your own safety" Morante said. "This way, you won't know what you're translating."
Becker laughed. Then he noticed nobody else was laughing.

Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:24 AM
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Jesus that is laughably bad.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:27 AM
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25: That fucking section! I was quoted on said podcast about precisely that; it's so awful I had to write in. That's not how language in general, or Japanese and Chinese in particular, work. There's like six or seven huge misunderstandings wrapped up in that bit.

I'd say he's even worse with the cryptography, but, like, at least cryptography is nominally esoteric. How languages work is not. Hell, in the last chapter I read he completely fucks up describing how gears on a bus work (you don't downshift from first to second!).

Also fun: the page before, he says that Becker is a polyglot who knows "several Asian dialects, and Spanish, French, and Italian." Several...Asian...dialects.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:31 AM
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Wow I'm ignorant. I thought characters had a consistent meaning used in Mandarin, other Chinese dialects, and Japanese -- that is, the same character would mean "dog" regardless of what language it was in. But I gather that's completely wrong?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:33 AM
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Or, that's right but the book is loony?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:35 AM
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28: You're absolutely right. There might be slight differences, mostly through divergence and metaphor, but not much. There are also sometimes slight differences in how the characters are written, due to different choices in simplification. What does vary greatly is the pronunciation.

And, uh, yeah, the idea of translating characters, one by one, out of order? No. It doesn't work. Becker is supposed to be a Georgetown language prof, but he's being used like a bilingual dictionary.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:37 AM
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28: Some characters have the same meaning in both Japanese and Chinese, which is why I can tell the difference between chicken and pork dishes in a Chinese restaurant menu despite not understanding Mandarin. Some are false friends, e.g. 酒店 means "hotel" in Chinese but "bar" in Japanese. And many Japanese characters can be read different ways and mean different things depending on the context, i.e. what comes before and after. Which is why the bit about making him work on the characters out of sequence is so completely screwy.


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:40 AM
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Somehow I missed that this was a Dan Brown book, which is what led me astray.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:41 AM
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I had no idea also. People should warn you when discussing his books.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:43 AM
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I mean, you have characters like 生, for which I copy a dictionary definition below:

生 【なま】 (adj-no,n) (1) raw; uncooked; fresh; (2) natural; as it is; unedited; unprocessed; (3) (col) unprotected (sex); (4) live (i.e. not recorded); (5) inexperienced; unpolished; green; crude; (n) (6) (abbr) (See 生意気) impudence; sauciness; (7) (abbr) (See 生ビール) unpasteurized beer; draft beer; draught beer; (adj-no) (8) (See 生テープ) blank (e.g. disk); unused; (pref) (9) (before an adjective) just a little; somehow; vaguely; partially; somewhat; half-; semi-; (10) insufficient; incomplete; half-baked; half-hearted; perfunctory; (n) (11) (arch) cash; (12) (abbr) (See 生酔い) tipsiness; (P) [Links]


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:51 AM
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Oops, only copied part of that by mistake.

【いく】 (pref) (arch) vital; virile; lively [Links]
うぶ 《初; 初心; 産; 生》 (adj-na,n,adj-no) (1) (uk) (esp. 初, 初心) innocent; naive; unsophisticated; inexperienced; green; wet behind the ears; (n-pref) (2) (産, 生) birth- [Links]
(1) そのうぶな男は彼女を前にしてすっかりどぎまぎしていた。 The naive man was utterly embarrassed in her presence.[Amend]
生 【き】 (n,pref) pure; undiluted; raw; crude [Links]
生 【せい; しょう】 (n) (1) life; living; (n,n-suf) (2) (せい only) (male) (hum) I; me; myself; (n-suf) (3) (せい only) (abbr) (See 学生・がくせい) student [Links]
(1) 死は生の正反対である。 Death is the antithesis of life.[Amend]
生 【なま】 (adj-no,n) (1) raw; uncooked; fresh; (2) natural; as it is; unedited; unprocessed; (3) (col) unprotected (sex); (4) live (i.e. not recorded); (5) inexperienced; unpolished; green; crude; (n) (6) (abbr) (See 生意気) impudence; sauciness; (7) (abbr) (See 生ビール) unpasteurized beer; draft beer; draught beer; (adj-no) (8) (See 生テープ) blank (e.g. disk); unused; (pref) (9) (before an adjective) just a little; somehow; vaguely; partially; somewhat; half-; semi-; (10) insufficient; incomplete; half-baked; half-hearted; perfunctory; (n) (11) (arch) cash; (12) (abbr) (See 生酔い) tipsiness; (P) [Links]
(1) アメリカ人にはよくあることだが彼はなまの魚を好かない。 As is often the case with Americans, he does not care for raw fish.[Amend]
(2) ある批評家が、バレーを描いた私の絵を見たら、生のバレー公演を見に行く必要がないと言ったことがあります。 A critic once said that if you saw my ballet paintings, you didn't have to go to a live performance.[Amend]
(3) ゴムをすると確かに性感が落ちるので、出来れば生でしたいです。 The sensitivity certainly drops if I use a condom, so if possible I'd like to do it bareback.[Amend]
生 【ふ】 (n,n-suf) (See 芝生) area of thick growth (of trees, grass, etc.) [Links]
なまり 《生り; 生(io)》 (n) (uk) (abbr) (See 生り節) boiled and half-dried bonito [Links]


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:53 AM
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Plot idea: at the start of "The Godfather", Don Corleone's sitting in his study, agreeing to requests for help (because he can't refuse on his daughter's wedding day), and in each case the idea is that in return the person in question (Bonasera the undertaker, Enzo the baker and so on) will owe him a favour; he collects these favours as the film goes on, with Bonasera looking after Sonny's body, Enzo guarding his hospital bed, etc.
So you write that scene, but instead the poor Don is besieged by requests for help from people who seem to have no possible useful favours to do in return. A modernist composer. An archaeologist. A warden on a small nature reserve. A designer of lampshades.
And then you write an increasingly unlikely plot in which it turns out that the modernist composer is exactly the sort of ally the Don needs, for some bizarre reason.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:55 AM
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I was told there would be no Kanji on this test.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 9:59 AM
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38

36 is good.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:00 AM
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Wow I'm ignorant. I thought characters had a consistent meaning used in Mandarin, other Chinese dialects, and Japanese -- that is, the same character would mean "dog" regardless of what language it was in. But I gather that's completely wrong?

A good example of the serious drift that's occurred over time - the original pictographic character for dog is , and that is still the written form of Japanese for dog, inu, but in Chinese the same-written word quăn is archaic/literary and the modern word for dog is gǒu.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:04 AM
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The first one looks nothing like a dog.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:05 AM
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39: That's still a pretty consistent meaning, though--犬 might be archaic and no longer used (except apparently in some topolects), but it retains its meaning.

40: 人 is a person. 大 is a big person. 犬 is a big person with a tail, that is, a furry.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:09 AM
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42

That would make so much more sense.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:15 AM
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It retains its meaning in a formal sense, but I'm not sure how that helps in practice. Lots of these little divergences and faux amis add up to prevent the character set from being any kind of rudimentary lingua franca as is sometimes alleged.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:53 AM
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44

And 太 is a fat person.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:54 AM
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(More drift - 太 means fat in Japanese, but in Chinese it seems to be some kind of intensifying adverb or particle.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:55 AM
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46

It looks like a guy with a penis situated on his thigh.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 10:56 AM
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47

!!##!@!!#!


Posted by: Hong Xiuquan | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 11:05 AM
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44 Not a well hung person?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 11:07 AM
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36: So the designer of lampshades can hang one on each trope being misused/parodied?


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 4:32 PM
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36: This is an update of a standard fairy tale form, right? The youngest son is kind to ants, then the king makes him sort out a heap of wheat mixed with barley, and the ants help. He's kind to a fish, the king makes him retrieve a ring lost at the bottom of the ocean and the fish fetches it. And so on. Or a simpler version is the lion and the mouse.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 4:53 PM
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Here's a sample paragraph from the beginning of Secondhand (page 7).

Like most people in a very new industry, Sharon Kadet didn't aspire to her current position in home cleanout. She grew up in a middle-class Minneapolis family, attended college, and spent much of her career working for large philanthropic foundations like the United Way. Then, in the late 2000s, her father passed away, and the the family hired a company to to help her mother transition to a smaller home. The manager of that move eventually founded Empty the Nest in 2011. Not long after Sharon ran into that "move manager" at the gym and later looked up what she was doing. "It made sense to me from a human standpoint," she says, recalling her first online encounter with Empty the Nest. In 2013, Sharon joined the company as a packer. Then she started visting senior housing communities to market Empty the Nest services.

page 68

As I described in my first book, _Junkyard Planet_, some of my earliest memories entail walking through the family scap-metal warehouse, perusing inventory with my father. It was filled with value buys: metal cuttings from area manufacturers, scrap car radiators from repair shops, bundles of wire sold by electricians. If I returned a day or two later all that inventory would be gone, sold onward to someone who paid more

I think, as a journalist, he's got an excellent eye for the different ways in which people relate to stuff -- both the emotional and economic ties that are generated in the various aspects of dealing with _things_.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-29-20 8:05 PM
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50: indeed. But you play it for comedy because it's set in the real world. Im thinking something along the lines of those amazingly convoluted heists in the Dortmunder books.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-30-20 12:32 AM
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On a related note, it has occurred to me that if he had not been shot in 1968 Martin Luther King would almost certainly have asked for, and been given, a short cameo appearance on "Star Trek: The Next Generation" at some point during its run. As an admiral or something. (He was a massive Trekkie. It was the only TV programme he allowed his children to watch. The account of his starstruck first meeting with Nichelle Nichols is well known; they became good friends and she sang at his funeral.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-30-20 1:59 AM
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I haven't gotten a clear sense of whether or not there's enough interest for a reading group. Email me if you're game to summarize a chapter, and then the group of interested commenters can be sure to select a book that appeals to that group, over email?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-30-20 5:04 AM
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I enjoyed when we read...I think one of Adam Tooze's books? I'd be up for doing that again.

He has written another one since we did that! I'm making my way through it now.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-30-20 5:13 AM
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UK folks: if you're thinking of buying a book or subscribing to something online, wait a day. https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1255842771082117122


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-30-20 6:05 AM
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What they do is your fault because you tried to do something useful.

I think this is an underappreciated element at the core of Trump's success. A lot of people have internalized the lesson that if you don't take any responsibility, then you aren't responsible for results. Trump glamorizes and institutionalizes the notion that you can rise to the top by seeking out the people who get the work of society done, and blaming them for anything that falls short of perfection.

And if it's perfect? Make something up. That way, the scientists and diplomats and academics and whatnot will be put in their place. Bonus: This way, you can also infer that they think they are better than you, and you can resent them that, too.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05- 1-20 8:30 AM
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everyone should totally ignore me, b/c I am totally unreliable, but I am slowly trying to make my way through

For All the People:
Uncovering the Hidden History of Cooperation, Cooperative Movements, and Communalism in America

By John Curl


Posted by: Saheli | Link to this comment | 05- 1-20 3:32 PM
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