How much do people spend on wedding gifts? I know, I know, it depends on the income of the giver as well as the closeness of the relationship, and a lot of other factors. But I have no idea of the range, even. I've only (fairly) recently graduated from school, and I have a lot of loans and a public interest income, so I don't have a lot of extra cash for gifts and the like. But it's a bad experience for me when I attend a wedding and mentally calculate how much it has cost the bride and groom to invite me, feed me, entertain me, and give me a lovely beribboned box of jordan almonds or whatever, and realize that it adds up to way, way more than the cost of my gift.
Well, now that you're out of the store and thinking more clearly, you could always return it.
Oh, and yes: chump.
(Not that we all aren't on occassion.)
Seriously, thinking about it in terms of what the wedding costs is way off. If you're not that close, spend what you would have spent on a nice birthday present for someone -- if you're closer, buy something that's expensive for you, but that's totally dependent on your finances, not on what they could spend on the wedding. Rich people or spendthrifts don't get nicer presents than poor cheapskates.
But I hate shopping, and it's all wrapped and if I don't think about my credit card bill, I don't have to think about it again.
But it's a bad experience for me when I attend a wedding and mentally calculate how much it has cost the bride and groom to invite me, feed me, entertain me, and give me a lovely beribboned box of jordan almonds or whatever, and realize that it adds up to way, way more than the cost of my gift.
You didn't ask them to do all that stuff, did you? That stuff tends to be more so the bride and groom can give themselves and their parents the most awesome memories ever.
7: "memories" s/b "credit card bill"
Sorry if that was sarcastic. Perhaps I am not enjoying the idea of having to be involved in planning a wedding, having never planned a party that involved more than six people.
Planning a wedding will be the least fun you've ever had, until you get divorced.
Offer the couple a financial incentive to elope, or, if you're part of the couple, threaten to elope if nobody else steps up to do the organizing. Who really needs matching glassware anyway?
Maybe if it turns out that we'll be able to live in the same city in the near future we can elope.
11: Could there *be* any more financial incentives to elope?
13: If you could deduct the cost of eloping from your taxes, perhaps.
My dad once offered to pay my sisters and me if we did. Cash up front, instead of footing some part of the wedding bill. He now claims he was joking.
I've actually heard brides- and groms-to-be talk about gaming their wedding to maximize gift recovery. As in, "oh, you've got to get the nicest invitations, so that people will know it's going to be a fancy wedding, and they'll buy expensive gifts." That may be gross, but at the same time, I -- as the poor relation and the invitee -- feel like I am not in the position to refuse to participate on principle. I do always try to get interesting and thoughtful gifts, rather than just pulling something off the registry, but that's also because it's easier for me to expend effort and thought than money that I don't have.
The one really positive thing about buying off the registry, though, is that you can buy ONE of the 6-piece crystal goblets or whatever.
The store's software keeps track of what's been bought, and I suspect that brides and grooms also intervene during the gift-buying process to delete the unnecessary gift suggestions so that people will fill up that set.
16: The most expensive wedding I've ever been to had a very practical and down-to-earth bride: She found out where her silver pattern was available at a discount, registered at a camping and dive shop, as well as Pottery Barn, Bloomies and Neiman Marcus. This gave her friends all sorts of options at all sorts of price levels; the big wedding was only because of her parents [dad was CEO of a major corporation, member of the California CLub, where the wedding reception took place].
Me, I eloped twice. Fewer gifts, less stress, more fun.
Totally agree with 4.
Well, in one situation where the bride and groom went to Vegas and I just went to post-wedding party, I paid less. But otherwise fanciness hasn't been much of an object.
We sure didn't expect our grad student and just-out-of-college friends to shell out the per-guest cost of a fancy shmancy wedding in midtown Manhattan. After all, a lot of guests are paying for transportation, hotel, etc. as well as the gift.
I recently had that problem with a close friend. He's a great guy. We've known each other for ten years.
It cost me $400 to get to the wedding, and I was just out of cash. The cheapest thing on his registry was $145. (Young lawyer. He already has the basics.) He says I don't have to get him anything, but I will in a month or so, but it won't be off the registry.
You certainly don't owe anyone the cost of the party they threw themselves. I'll probably try to find something on my own, rather than on the registry.
I do that kind of shit all the time, if it helps at all.
I do that kind of shit all the time, if it helps at all.
Wrong thread, B.
You certainly don't owe anyone the cost of the party they threw themselves.
...and to which they invited you, of course. In Japan, it's expected that wedding guests will pay a few hundred bucks each as gifts to the newlyweds. Some wedding venues here even include the expected value of such gift payments as a negative line item in their estimates of what a wedding will cost.
In Japan, it's expected that wedding guests will pay a few hundred bucks each as gifts to the newlyweds. Some wedding venues here even include the expected value of such gift payments as a negative line item in their estimates of what a wedding will cost.
So the newlyweds don't invite people who can't afford to pay the appropriate amount for a present?
I went ahead and bought it, just because I was embarrassed to be seen to have been put off by the price tag.
I suspect that it is a rare person who has not done this from time to time. I can be pretty cheap, but I'm sure I've done this before. So, basically, you're human. Welcome.
I tend to spend $50-100 total (between shower gifts and the actual wedding present), depending on how close I am to the person. My brother and his wife were the exception -- I gave them a check towards their house fund that was considerably more than that, because he's my only sibling and I was fairly flush at the time.
24: I'm not in Japan. In the U.S., at least I'm not sure how I would calculate the 'cost' of what I 'owed' for being invited in a way that didn't feel petty. By plate cost? So my friend of fifteen years who had a thrifty little wedding at $8 a plate should get a cheap gift, where the friends I've known for six months who maxed out their credit cards for a $100/plate wedding should get more?
Do I get to deduct travel expenses?
That's dumb.
Some wedding venues here even include the expected value of such gift payments as a negative line item in their estimates of what a wedding will cost.
To me, jaded cow that I am, that sounds like a good way to sell an overpriced wedding venue. ("It seems like it's expensive, at $10K for the reception, but you'll be getting $5000 of that back, so it's a steal!")
jaded cow that I am
How many cows can Cala be in one day?
It depends on how much wedding planning I have to do. Guarantees frigidity and jadedness. The cow is just due to the holiday overindulging.
I swear I'm missing a female instruction manual. How am I supposed to know how to plan a wedding? Everyone's acting like I throw large parties all the time.
This is where you buy lots of magazines and you become a crazy person for awhile.
Or you pay someone to lead you like a lamb to the slaughter through the planning process.
So the newlyweds don't invite people who can't afford to pay the appropriate amount for a present?
I don't have hard survey data to go on here, but I suspect most people simply suck it up and pay the appropriate amount regardless of whether they can "afford" it. You know, duty and tradition and all. At the same time, if someone pays less than the standard amount, no one would ever call them on it, especially if it were clear that the lower gift was due to a lack of funds, not a desire to be rude. For example, a college student could probably get away with a subpar gift amount pretty easily; a business executive would have a harder time of it.
LB, just become proportionately closer to these people than you had been before, and like them proportionately better, and after a year or two the wedding gift will have become appropriate.
People say, "Her wedding is the most wonderful day of a girl's life". I'm not quite that negativistic about marriage, but almost.
31: But the purpose of the magazines, in the wise words of one of my friends, 'is to make you feel better about yourself because no matter how much you go over budget you're not spending $140K on a ring.'
Men, when you marry, take the time to develop opinions on things. 'Whatever you want, sweetheart' is not a helpful answer. It is probably true about a lot of things, but 'whatever you want, sweetheart' seems to be code for 'you can plan it, not me.'
35: Mom punted the planning to me. It's your wedding, she says. As near as I can tell, this means that it's my job to divine her wishes and intentions and put them into place.
This is sounding meaner than it should. But it's not uncommon to have a discussion like this. 'What do you like in wedding dresses?' --'Oh, you do what you want sweetheart. I don't care.' 'I like thus-and-such.' --'Oh, I don't like that. All the girls have strapless. You should get strapless.'
'What do you like in wedding dresses?'
The bride?
It is probably true about a lot of things
It's pretty much true about everything as regards wedding planning. Your advice is roughly analogous to me advising my wife to develop some opinions about Ultimate Fighting. She just doesn't care and nothing on god's green earth could make her.
Really, I can't recommend a courthouse wedding highly enough. Being married is nice, but getting married is a expensive, stressful waste of time.
How much does it cost to rent a courthouse?
39: Not even about whether you'd want an open bar? A dinner?
As near as I can tell, this means that it's my job to divine her wishes and intentions and put them into place.
Precisely how I felt with every aspect of our wedding that my wife asked me to help plan.
41: All I wanted was to be told when to be there and whether I needed to wear shoes.
'whatever you want, sweetheart' seems to be code for 'you can plan it, not me.'
Completely. The whole "I don't care about the wedding" thing is nonsense, if a reasonable reaction to the engagement/wedding industry. Like Cala says, it's a *party*. Do you want beer & bbq, wine & cheese, dinner? Who do you plan to invite? How many guests total? Ok, so how much will it cost to do X for Y many people? Where do you want to have it?
If you honestly *would* rather elope and skip having a party, then fine; that's a preference. But the shrugging the shoulders over social responsibilities thing is maddening.
(FWIW, I made Mr. B. write the invitations for the people he was inviting. Which means they got theirs in their boxes at work, in many cases without their wives' names b/c Mr. B. didn't know them--he wrote "and guest"--the week of the wedding. Fine by me, but I wasn't gonna do it.)
Cala, it may be kinda late, but I got a book called "The Working Woman's Wedding Planner" that was pretty good. Basically it broke shit down into categories, included charts so you could call around and record estimates for comparing, and had various suggestions about various kinds of weddings and price points. Made the whole thing really rather no-nonsense.
#39: Whatever floats your boat, but full-on weddings are not inherently bad things.
I am in the planning stages of our wedding right now. It is a fair amount of work, yes, but I am enjoying it. We're not going overboard by any means; we're looking at a basic ceremony and reception party for our families and guests. When I look back on our wedding years later, I want to have more to remember than just a courthouse.
But the shrugging the shoulders over social responsibilities thing is maddening.
Whatever. If I had given my honest opinions, they would be judged inane and vetoed anyhow.
And this is why you and I are not married, Apo.
#46: Touché.
But can you dance there?
44: B, that will probably be helpful. We haven't set a date because we can't yet, and apparently all the churches in all the world are already gone because everyone else got engaged years and years and years ago by unicorns. So I don't have anything done yet.
47: Maybe I just don't buy that people don't really care. They're not normally high maintenance people, but they do normally have preferences, say, between brands of soda, so let me just say I'm finding it very hard to buy that they wouldn't care at all what they ate at their wedding.
Or, come to think of it, maybe it's just that I don't have strong preferences on most of these things, so when I ask for input, it's because I need input.
Churches have gotten tough about weddings. If you're a registered member of a parish, they'll often be more flexible, but ime they were pretty stiff about "we just think your church is pretty." Is there really a reason, though, why you have to have a church wedding?
45: You and me both, brother. I've never understood sentiments like the apostropher's in 43 and 47. I had fun planning our wedding.
Of course, experience varies by couple and by family, but I just wanted to strike a blow against stereotype.
52: Not being disowned? Not having to endure another argument about how I'm trying sekritly to get out of it?
Ah. I don't have that kind of parents. I'd be inclined to just tell them to fuck off. But that's probably because I don't have that kind of parents.
Awesome church wedding story: at my wedding my wife accidently spilled some of the communion wine on her white dress. Bad enough, for several obvious reasons. But she also instinctively muttered "Oh fuck!" just loud enough to be captured by the priest's microphone, and broadcast for the whole audience (and captured on our wedding video). Good times.
Cala, here's a thought. I didn't want to have a wedding mass, because about half the guests (including my mom and grandma) weren't Catholic. But we *did* go to mass the day of the wedding, along with anyone else who was interested. That seemed to satisfy even my ultra-Catholic old-world mother in law.
My sister has been trying to convince me that I'm not really ready to get married because I am not suffering from warm fuzzy rose goggles/because I am not deliriously happy and engaged women always are in her 24-year-old experience.
If I get out of this without killing a couple sisters, it's a success.
56: And at that very moment when she demonstrated her impurity of mind.....her dress became no longer pure white.
56: Nice! Our rabbi insisted we use white wine, in case a similar thing happened to us. (It didn't, because my wife could totally kick your wife's ass in a wine-not-spilling contest!)
58.--Perfect! Put her in charge of something.
And this is why you and I are not married, Apo.
That, and having met long after we were both already married. No, what I mean is that I would have preferred not to have a church wedding and a big reception to begin with, so my suggestions would have been along the lines of "let's drive down to the courthouse and be done with it." The entire affair was one long fight between my first wife and her mother. I was mostly just there to talk Elena out of committing matricide, and I was only half-serious about trying to prevent that.
When presented with two fonts and paper styles to choose from, I picked one. Same with music, Bible verses, etc. But which one I picked might have changed depending on the weather. Colors, dresses, tuxes, flowers, that sort of thing? That's like asking me whether I prefer Tunisians or Algerians (for the record, I prefer Moroccans).
Yesterday, I spoke to the rabbi of pretty much the only synagogue in Japan.
It turns out he will not marry us unless we are both Jewish. Not only that, but he said it takes a year to study, attend services and classes, and pass the test to convert to Judaism.
I asked him if there were any rabbis he would know in Japan who would do a mixed wedding. He answered, in fine Jewish style, "Not only are there no rabbis I would know, there are no rabbis I wouldn't know."
We are now looking at flying in a Rabbi from our home congregation in America. But I still say planning a wedding is fun!
Why don't y'all just convert to Baptism? They'll take anybody.
62: Okay, well, "no church wedding or big reception" is, in fact, a preference. Sure, if your preference gets totally overruled rather than, say, resulting in a compromise ("how about the courthouse, but a reception afterwards?") then throwing up your hands is valid. I'll take you off the "bad person" list.
Seriously, Judaism is like one of those co-op boards in Manhattan that prides itself on how hard it can make it to become a member.
Can't you get married by a Unitarian or something and have the Jewish wedding when the rabbi will have you?
I think apostropher describes the best behavior in #62.
There will probably be dozens of wedding-related decisions about which I have absolutely no opinion and have no idea why anyone would have an opinion. If asked to make a decision, I will make a random decision, thus solving the problem! If it turns out that someone is unhappy with the decision (presumably because while asking me, they were pretending that they didn't have an opinion), hopefully they will have the gumption to let me know, so the decision will be altered.
Yesterday, I spoke to the rabbi of pretty much the only synagogue in Japan.
I have absolutely no idea if they would help you, but I bet the US military installations have a rabbi or two. Normally, I can see them being reluctant to help, but in this situation, who knows?
71: Someday, in utopia, men won't just sit around waiting to be asked when things need to get done.
I was referring to things that don't need to get done.
74: Yeah, and I'm sounding bitchier than I feel. But the issue of what "needs" to get done is part of the problem, of course. Honestly, I wish that with weddings (and marriage), people would sit down together at the beginning and actually hash that out rather than either assuming one has to X because everyone else does, or that Y doesn't matter to *me*, so I'm going to ignore it unless you force me not to.
But then I'm not easy to be married to. Though we did have a really nice wedding, and we've been married forever, so there's that, too.
Y doesn't matter to *me*, so I'm going to ignore it unless you force me not to
In saying this, which I haven't said yet, I would be trying to convince the other people to also ignore the issue. e.g. "What kind of candles for the tables?" My answer would be "No candles for the tables, or if they are absolutely integral, the cheapest candles possible."
Hopefully this would be followed by her either A) agreeing with me, or B) convincing me that nice candles are important and I should express a (possibly random) opinion on them. An undesirable outcome would be her continuing to wonder what kind of candles are best for the tables, and hoping that I make up my mind someday.
I will make a random decision, thus solving the problem!
Take a few seconds and act like you're thinking about it, though. It seems to piss off everybody else involved when you just glance down and point to the one on the left, then go back to what you were originally discussing.
I was referring to things that don't need to get done.
Like weddings.
"No candles for the tables, or if they are absolutely integral, the cheapest candles possible."
Dude, you and I should get married.
Tables? Candles? My hypothetical guests would be lucky to get folding chairs!
Tables? Candles? My hypothetical guests would be lucky to get folding chairs!
We actually have not taken the first step toward planning the wedding (that first step would be deciding what city it will be in). I can't imagine any extravagance, or more than 50-60 people who might be invited, but after attending my two North Carolina cousins' 300-person weddings in two years, I'm getting worried.
When presented with two fonts and paper styles to choose from, I picked one. Same with music, Bible verses, etc. But which one I picked might have changed depending on the weather. Colors, dresses, tuxes, flowers, that sort of thing?
See, here's the thing. This is true of me, too. I've spent the past 21 years being overeducated and told to study. The curricula have generally been short on flower-arranging and cake decorating. In my daily life, I have better things to do with my time than determine which swatch of invitation vellum is really me.
I don't have strong preferences on most of this. His are probably stronger than mine on some things (colors, and wedding dresses, surprisingly), but he's deferring to me because of some idea that he has to, or that this is something I'm supposed to whip up from a crayon drawing I made when I was four.
So basically, in order for him to have an opinion, I have to have an opinion first.
#70: Can't you get married by a Unitarian or something and have the Jewish wedding when the rabbi will have you?
This is going to be the ceremony that my parents come to and we take pictures and video of, etc. So we need a rabbi to do it up right.
#72: I bet the US military installations have a rabbi or two.
Good idea; I looked into that yesterday, too. There are no rabbis stationed at the naval or air bases around Tokyo. (It's a pretty sad situation for Jews in the US military; you can read about it here.) I haven't checked the Marines down in Okinawa yet, but by the time you get to Okinawa, you're talking about a plane ticket anyway.
True story: When I called the Yokota Air Base chapel, I explained to the guy there that I was a civilian living in Tokyo. "How did you get this number?" he asked. "From your website," I explained. "Hmm," he said. "We really shouldn't put that up there."
link propagation, because it would be silly not to after finding it:
YOKOSUKA There is a Jewish chapel at the United States naval base here, and some religious services at the base are open to visitors. Further inf. can be obtained by telephoning Tel: (0468) 26-1911, Ext. 6773.
Actually, that link I posted says the US military has no rabbis stationed anywhere in Japan, including Okinawa, in any branch of the armed forces.
#84: Thanks. I did check out the Jewish chapel at Yokosuka. It may be a chapel, but it has no rabbi. Basically, it's just a room that any Jews there can use for prayer. They appoint a "lay leader" to function in place of a real rabbi to lead prayers and such, but he is not allowed to perform bar mitzvahs, weddings, and other big stuff.
Listen to the Apostropher dudes. The ladies on this blog are atypical, and will send you down the path to destruction.
"This is true of me, too."
Then it's easy. Tell your mothers that you're cutting out the middle man and for them to hash it out and just tell you when you're supposed to be there and whether you need to wear shoes.
We planned our wedding with my wife's aunt, who had done her daughter and stepdaughter's, much bigger affairs earlier in the same year. She had all kinds of sample fabrics and patterns. She was thrilled by my participation, which was a new thing for her, and when we chose a pattern, would exclaim "That's what I wanted ____ to pick but she wouldn't" She particularly liked my phrasing on invites, etc. I had no experience, but neither did my wife and she managed to include me in a way that was disinhibiting. I can't explain why it should have felt so natural to be involved but it was.
I can't explain why it should have felt so natural to be involved
G-A-Y
Fuck that shit and a half.
63, 66: oh, tell me about it. There are quite a few rabbis who will do gay weddings without batting an eyelash and will not marry a Jew and non-Jew.
We found a cantor my husband's cousin knew--he was Irish, baptized Catholic, married a Jewish woman, and converted only after they married. So he was pretty sympathetic to not wanting to do a rush job conversion. I think it may have been an issue if we weren't going to raise the kids Jewish, but I was committed to doing that long before I decided to convert myself.
He's in Scarsdale, though--so this doesn't really help you.
And yeah, conversion's a pain. I want to do it, have thought about it extensively, am ready--but there is a class you have to take and it just flatly never works with my schedule. When I was in law school finals ruled it out; last year I probably should have but was busy moonlighting for human rights organizations; and now I need to find a new synagogue and rabbi and my job is too nuts to take any class. And I would bet you anything that I know a large proportion of it, and could learn the rest on a more flexible schedule....("can't I take some sort of test and place out of this?" I always want to ask. I do like the idea of conversion being more rigorous than a dip in the water or your freshman language requirement. But damn, no flexibility about the stupid course. At this point I've become totally delinquent too. (hi IDP!) But it's frustrating.)
78: If weddings are unnecessary, why'd you decide to get married?
I didn't have a wedding the second time around.
92: Word. When my parents got married my mom's childhood rabbi offered to come from Israel to conduct the wedding -- if my dad would convert. No way he was doing that, so they had to hunt around for a rabbi that would do an interfaith marriage. They are not in abundance. Orthodox and Conservative rabbis aren't allowed to at all, and though Reform rabbis theoretically can, most don't. They eventually found one, but it was a struggle.
Note that children of a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father are halachically Jewish.
94: Aha. And you see the difference? Taking the traditional approach bodes ill, my friend.
"No candles for the tables, or if they are absolutely integral, the cheapest candles possible."
This is a perfectly acceptable answer to me. It's also perfectly fine if one person *really* does care and the other one really doesn't--("no, really, I don't give a crap about this one, if you do you should pick" to me is in some way preferable to "whatever you want honey"); or if the person who insisted on the big fancy wedding is the one to do the work. But the idea that the girl should do it all because she's the girl is very, very annoying--part of the whole pernicious Bridal Industrial Complex idea that it's the bride's "special day" and the groom is just a prop in a tux.
My husband was fine about this--he did have opinions a surprising % of the time. I did more of the work, but that was because he was in grad school taking generals, whereas I had a fairly mindless 9-5 job and this was a nice little pasttime. I just got irritated by reading wedding magazines and websites, hearing sexist jokes from wedding vendors, being told it was "disappointing and sort of shocking" that I was not hiring hair and makeup people, etc.
96: As I said to begin with, being married is nice. It's specifically the getting married part that I didn't like. Also the getting unmarried part, but that's another thread.
98: Sounds like how I feel about the whole pregnancy/kids thing.
Heh heh. Speaking of which, I should find out whether this next one is a boy or a girl on Friday, assuming it cooperates.
Well, I did *all* our wedding planning. Organized it all, chose literally everything except my wife's dress, paid for it all myself etc.
Despite that, I am still in sympathy with what Apo and CrypticNed say above. I couldn't give a flying hairy fuck about the bulk of the stuff that gets planned in ordinary (i.e. stupidly expensive and not planned by me) weddings and if I had been asked my opinion about them, I'd have had to lie or make some random choice or other. And then if I'd been asked to justify that opinion, I'd have had to further compound that lie, and so on, ad infinitum.
Part of being in a long-term relationship obviously involves making those sorts of choices -- expressing opinions about shit you just don't give a shit about because expressing an opinion about that shit you don't give a shit about will make your partner feel valued (because they care about that shit) -- but the not giving a shit about them part, contra 73, doesn't make you a bad person. People care about different stuff and that cuts both ways.
GB, have you tried posting an ad on Craigslist?
"Biker and bride WLTM broadminded rebbe for secret ceremony, Tokyo area."
I know a young couple getting married next year in Brooklyn. They're not wealthy and are paying for it themselves. They plan over 300 people (the whole fire department plus everyone of Italian descent that they've ever met in their lives, or something like that).
They were planning to take out a home equity loan on their new condo. However, the bank informed them that the condo isn't worth what they paid for it (pre-construction about 18 months ago), so they're going with plan B: an engagement party! She's calculating: 100 guests x $200 each = $20000! 150 guests = $30000!
Anyone who brings a physical gift rather than a check will wreck everything.
GB, (and Katherine and Teo), I hear you. Judaism's attitude towards intermarriage is the proximal reason I abandoned my religious involvement. (There's a long rant about it at my blog if you're interested.) I don't have any advice, since Japan's a whole 'nother thing, but good luck to you.
99- it's the getting pregnant part you don't like??
Only because I've never gotten her pregnant, Brock.
The thing is, random choices are real information -- it's a way of saying "Any of these options are acceptable, but I'm not just refusing to participate -- if I had a real problem, I'd speak up."
Buck and I were both pretty hard-core indifferent about all the wedding planning details, but we wanted something that would look like a normal wedding so that family with traditional expectations wouldn't be worried. This involved things like going to the florist on the corner and saying "We need something that looks like a bridal bouquet, and flowers for twelve tables. How cheaply can you do that, and what will it look like?" and responding "Fine," to the first thing they showed us.
On the other hand, we had some trouble finding an officiant (I'm not sure if we were just being clueless or what, but we had a hard time finding a religious person who didn't want to counsel us first, and couldn't find a non-religious person who'd come to us, rather than us coming to an office) and we ended up with a moderately weird Unitarian dude. He showed us his standard service, and it was bizarre: all sorts of stuff about our two beings joining into the great World-River. We both realized that had to be fixed, and wrote him something that wasn't ridiculous (and was very, very short.)
So, picking the one on the left when given wedding options isn't pointless or dismissive -- it's a real way of communicating that the options given are inoffensive, and that you would say something if they were.
We were fortunate in finding a congregation committed to intermarriage, to performing them normally, within the auspices of the congregation, and having no barriers to full participation of the non-Jewish spouse, conversion or no. This was more than twenty years ago, but it is no more common now than it was then.
Among my circle, intermarriages are so common we joke that it's the ethnic group we belong to. At every congregation I've visited besides my own, there have been barriers; at the Bnei Mitzvot of my friends' children, often the non-Jewish parent is not permitted on the Bimah during the service, is essentially not participating, as if s/he doesn't exist or is some sort of embarrassment. This, and the shabby compromises often imposed on these same friends at the time of their weddings, as to venue, officiating, ceremony and the like, shocked and revolted me when I became aware of it. I find this state of affairs despicable.
My experience has been completely different. We've been active members of our congregation since our wedding. I felt like converting precisely because I felt absolutely no outside compulsion nor obligation to do so, and I felt free to consider it only in terms of my own religious feelings. No only do unconverted members of our congregation participate fully in all religious matters, but have often served not only on the Board but also on the executive committee.
Ours is a wealthy, strong-minded congregation accustomed to doing things its own way. Proven willingness to perform intermarriages has been an explicit condition of employment, and there's no doubt it would be rigorously enforced. The lay leadership of hundreds of congregations would love to do the same, but don't feel strong enough. In my circle, there have been experiences where hiring committees have believed themselves to have an understanding, only to be double-crossed.
Yes, this perverse clerical ideology's typical adherent has convinced himself that marriage between (Both Jewish!) homosexuals is a human right, and to fail to perform or support it would be bigotry, but that an intermarriage is anathema, and shunning and barriers must be maintained, at whatever cost to the morale or commitment of what are often substantial portions of their congregations.
So, picking the one on the left
Always a good choice for you, LB. Thank ? for Unitarians, the choice of most of my non-religious friends, although re-write has usually been necessary.
102's right. I obviously don't have a problem with saying x, y, or z aspect of "traditional" weddings is stupid and I don't want it. What I'm saying is that the stereotypical male disinterest in social planning is maddening: if you're going to get married, there will be *a* wedding, of some sort (by definition!), and absolving yourself of any responsibility for thinking about it is a really p-a way of making someone else do all the work. Ditto shit like "not caring" about Xmas shopping, or thank-you letters, or cleaning the house before people come over. It's fine if you genuinely don't care; but if there are probable consequences for that indifference that you would prefer to avoid (kids don't get presents, your mom's feelings are hurt, your friends don't have any place to sit down), then it's not true that you don't care. It's just that you know someone else is going to take care of it if you're lazy enough.
p-a
"pansy-ass"? "piss-ass"?
"pissant"?
It's fine if you genuinely don't care;
With respect to thank-you letters, or cleaning the house before people come over, I can assure you that my wife does not feel the same way. The longer this thread goes on the truer 87 seems.
LB, I can get the understanding 'I'll speak up if something is truly horrible, otherwise I trust you.' But that arrangement, oddly enough, still leaves me in the position of having to decide which city, which possible church, which possible napkin, which possible flowers.
I don't care too much either, so why am I the one who has to narrow it down?
113 -- palestinian authority.
115: At that point, you're both being lazy and playing chicken about it, at which point the traditional expectation that you'll give a damn screws you. He can probably hold out longer than you can. (And, of course, on some level it's really more your problem than his, because your family is the one getting hostile about it rather than his.)
I don't have any suggestions other than threatening your mother with a courthouse elopement: "You want a real wedding? You figure it out."
114: You say that like it's a bad thing.
115: Man, is it frustrating how many details of how many things even fairly clued-in men don't realize women get stuck with, whether they're interested or not, and how often "I don't care" turns into "I don't care, so long as you deal with it." I've tried time and time again to make clear how much mental real estate worrying about petty household shit (e.g., do we have enough toothpaste?) takes up, and how I would like to have that burden shared some, please, but it never happens. I don't even remember being socialized to take care of that stuff, but obviously I was and my boyfriend wasn't, and I'd sure love to know how to break that pattern.
94: You must have had a wedding of some sort, if not a Wedding -- how did you and your wife get hitched?
Man, is it frustrating how many details of how many things even fairly clued-in men don't realize women get stuck with, whether they're interested or not, and how often "I don't care" turns into "I don't care, so long as you deal with it." I've tried time and time again to make clear how much mental real estate worrying about petty household shit (e.g., do we have enough toothpaste?) takes up, and how I would like to have that burden shared some, please, but it never happens. I don't even remember being socialized to take care of that stuff, but obviously I was and my boyfriend wasn't, and I'd sure love to know how to break that pattern.
This is not a universal pattern. But I am a terrible, evil, lazy person, and can win most games of chicken involving who actually cares if we're out of something. (And Buck is disadvantaged by being hardworking and energetic.)
118: A-fucking-men.
114: Okay, you *genuinely* don't care if the house is cleaned up before people come over. I'm kinda the same way (though I do care if it's basically clean for us to live in). But what does that mean, in practice? Does it mean you don't care if there's clean glasses to offer people something to drink in? Does it mean you don't care if there's cat or baby puke on the floor? Does it mean you don't care if people have to pick their way through baby toys in order not to trip and fall? Or does it just mean that you care about *those* things, but not whether or not the windows have been washed? Because I find it hard to believe that anyone truly doesn't care at all about whether or not their house is reasonably comfortable for guests, unless they're a jerk. Which I doubt you are.
120: It's not universal, but it is generally true. One of the great benefits of having had Mr. B. be the at-home person for three years is that *now* he *does* care about cleaning up before people come over (more than I do, even)--because now he's actually internalized the idea that the cleanliness of the house is *his* responsibility, rather than just something that guests won't associate with him and that therefore he doesn't need to worry about, as if it were the neighbor's yard or something.
how did you and your wife get hitched?
We went down to the courthouse and signed the papers. It was the second marriage for both of us and we had big to-dos the first time around, which was quite enough. Also, I really didn't want all of our poor friends feeling obligated to get us gifts, since they'd all done that for each of us separately 8 years earlier.
Eight? Ten? Some number of years earlier.
I think 112 is exactly right.
However, there are situations where a question isn't really a question, and it carries a heavy expectation that the questionee will make the "right" choice, and when he or she doesn't, the proper choice will be imposed despite the questionee's input, often with heavy deprecation of the questionee's taste, intellect, etc. In such a situation expressing indifference is often the safest choice. Wedding planning can be a ripe environment for this type of interaction.
I've tried time and time again to make clear how much mental real estate worrying about petty household shit (e.g., do we have enough toothpaste?) takes up, and how I would like to have that burden shared some
Not exclusively a problem with males, I can assure you, although such behavior probably is more prevalent among us y-chromosome types.
This pattern can also be very commonly seen in many organizations, both formal and informal, where a small number of the participants take responsibility for making things work, and everyone else bitches when they don't.
there are situations where a question isn't really a question, and it carries a heavy expectation that the questionee will make the "right" choice, and when he or she doesn't, the proper choice will be imposed
Yeah. I hate it when people pull this shit. But in all honestly, I wouldn't marry someone who tended to do this kind of thing often. Maybe this is a blind spot due to my being a chick, and it's something men have just learned to put up with, the way women have just learned to put up with doing the Xmas shopping. If so, I still don't see why y'all don't gripe about it and try to change it, rather than just shrugging your shoulders and saying "yes, dear, whatever."
121- well, okay, I care about that. But *I* wouldn't want to sit around my own house for an evening if all that shit was wrong. And I'm perfectly happy to help clean that up. In fact, I'm actually more sensitive about keeping things reasonably clean and organized on a day-to-day basis than is my wife. But I honestly don't care about dusting the baseboards if some friends are coming over to watch a football game. My wife thinks this means I'm a Neanderthal. I'll sometimes help her, *only* in order to avoid a fight, but to me it seems stupid.
127: Well, butch it up, then.
128: Fair enough.
This pattern can also be very commonly seen in many organizations, both formal and informal, where a small number of the participants take responsibility for making things work, and everyone else bitches when they don't.
It probably goes without saying that I was one of those people at my last workplace, and it is most satisfying to see how many people miss the hell out of me now that I'm gone.
130: Absolutely. In personal relationships, it can be most useful, not to mention satisfying, to occasionally go away alone on a trip for a few days or a week. This allows one's better half some time to become reacquainted with all those things that don't just magically get done all by themselves.
Of course, sometimes in such a situation one's beloved, instead of regaining an appreciation for all that you do, simply reverts to a feral state. So it's a risky strategy.
#110: Is your rabbi interested in a free trip to Japan? (Seriously.)