Key word there is "likely." You know, like it could be "likely" that a person who wears makeup is not going to be attractive to you, except when she is.
Seriously, are you ruling her out based just on that?
I'm ruling her out because it looks like she plucks her eyebrows, motherfuckers.
This woman and I share a dating pool.
I own tevas, though I'm not entirely happy about it. The man sandal problem is legendary.
2: I pluck my eyebrows, motherfucker.
i have a similar rule about the tevas, except i just noticed a pair last night, kind of buried under tons of books and clutter, in the guy i'm dating's apartment. either i'll have to reconsider, or burn them.
I own tevas, but I basically never wear them and I'm not even sure where they are at the moment.
And yet we have great sex. Maybe time to reconsider my prejudices.
Birkenstocks: acceptable Man Sandals? Or insufferable frat boy accessory?
Tevas and sandals rule. So comfortable. I don't know that I'm militant on this point, but I'm not sure I'm not militant, either.
I do hope we will now have 500 comments about how owning Tevas is not a reliable signifier of anything except that y'all hate men.
Tevas are reprehensible, but it you hike through creeks in a place like Oneonta Gorge, they're pretty much the ideal footwear.
Also, Birkenstocks are incredibly comfortable, as it turns out.
15: Heh. I was just about to comment that I actually think it is a pretty good proxy, and it was clever of her to include it.
I knew I was getting old when I realized that not only did my boyfriend wear Birkenstocks, I thought he looked cute in them.
I've never worn sandals in my life, except the rubber ones designed for the beach and the shower, so I have no opinion. I find it distracting to see hairy toes.
I don't associate Birkenstocks with frat boys, but then I grew up in the Bay Area.
The only acceptable occasion for Tevas are when your feet will be getting wet, doing something outdoorsy. Thus 16 is acceptable, as is wearing them tubing down a river.
I personally am okay with Birks, as long as there exist other signals compensating for the frat-boy-ness.
Plastic flip-flops out in public, though: totally frat boy.
Birkenstocks, which went national around the time I was in high-school, certainly weren't originally associated with frat boys. Initially, as I recall, only women wore them. But now I think they're a frat boy accessory. I'm sure this phase will pass.
10 to 9 = gay chicken. Teo you better step it up in response.
Frat boys wear Birkenstocks? I thought it was hippies that wore Birkenstocks.
There's gotta be a geographical component to this. In my mid-size desert city, dress code norms are unusually casual and sandals are great.
Then again, I don't date women that wear makeup.
26 gets it right. "Birkenstock" = "granola", from what I remember of the Rush Limbaugh show.
What if one wears socks with the Birkenstocks? Still frat boyish?
On the other hand, you could say the same thing about hackysack. Perhaps the bourgeoisification of Birkenstocks and hackysacks has accompanid the bourgewjigsication of marijuana.
Also unacceptable: wearing hiking boots when you're not actively hiking at that very moment.
26: Both do. It's a weird convergence.
Tevas are comfortable. If you want a partner who values comfort, Tevas should be ok. If instead you demand a partner who values style, there's something for you at apostropher's place.
23: Or ski bum.
29: Asianish, obviously.
I'm with 26. I have absolutely no frat-boy associations with Birkenstocks.
Teva-haters typically are unaware that the majority of the earth's solid surface is not made of concrete or asphalt.
Birkenstocks are pretty comfy, but just a little too hippy/ugly. I have a pair of birkenstock clog/mule things that i wear with shorts a lot, although its usually colourful flipflops or white sneakers or sockless loafers. Not that I wear shorts too often.
Let us discuss frat boy signifiers.
Growing up in the PNW, Birkenstocks and Tevas were worn by hippies and other granola-eaters.
Here in the LA area, I see basically every incarnation of flip-flop on everyone. (I saw a giant old white dude, walking a tiny ratdog and wearing a FUBU sweater and flip-flops--fully awesome).
Also:
we will likely not get along if...you wear or own tevas or other similar sporty sandle-type footwear
Who wears tevas without owning them, I wonder?
My grandmother loved Birkenstocks. She wore them back before anyone outside of hippie circles had heard of them.
What if one wears socks with the Birkenstocks? Still frat boyish?
German.
i own a pair of something like (what google image shows me to be) tevas. They were $5, they're tacky, wonderfully practical, and i love them.
frat boy signifiers
Hair product.
Teva-haters typically are unaware that the majority of the earth's solid surface is not made of concrete or asphalt.
Teva-wearers typically are unaware of how ugly their shoes are.
God, hiking-inspired footwear is the ugly shit ever.
26 and 28 get it right.
Incidentally, these are my dress shoes. They're Birkenstocks, and they're by far the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned.
45: Check out Salomon's line. It's comfortable, but there's a good reason I can buy it at 70% off.
Sandals of most any kind (except Birkenstocks) in Hawaii: totally acceptable, if not actually required.
Sandals anywhere else: work of the devil.
Today's exchange rate: EUR 1.00 = EUR 1;
I wonder if it'll change tomorrow.
No Tevas or Birkenstocks can match the majesty of my farting sandals (brand not known). Every step causes the arch of my foot to make that hand-in-the-underarm sound. They make a great noise on the upbeat for footstomping hoedown action.
pwned by 23. This is the second time today i've been called out on being a frat guy.
here's a few other things i've got: madras pants, seersucker, aviator sunglasses, smirk, white sneakers, tailored jackets worn casually, necklaces, lots of scarves.
I believe in suffering for fashion.
Sandals anywhere else: work of the devil.
Surely I've told the story of being addressed by three young African-American women
If you've told it, I don't recall the telling.
Anyway, Ogged, anyone who cares that much about shoes is f'd up. You can do better.
This is reminding me that one of the more entertaining profiles I've read had a riff on how-did-I-get-to-have-so-many-types-of-shoes. Done lightly, and with tongue in cheek, it was actually quite appealing.
Frat boy signifiers: baseball cap, esp. backwards; long cargo shorts; flip flops. Birkenstocks and Tevas are hippy/outdoorsy signifiers. Some people just wear Tevas them hikings etc. so it's weird to me that you'd have a problem w/ someone owning them. I mean, ski boots aren't real attractive either.
Cork soles are really, really comfortable but Birkenstocks are a little too functional-yet-unattractive even for me. I do like wool clogs.
Teva-wearers typically are unaware of how ugly their shoes are.
But typically they can still see their feet, and not just because they are wearing sandals.
I don't think you have told us the story about the three African-American girls, Ogged. What else did they have to say?
madras pants, seersucker
I know this stuff has become fratty, but I can't help associating it with my 87-year old great-uncle Ben. Cracks me up to see young guys wearing it.
Tevas appear to be the anti-makeup: the inference is, apparently, that the person doesn't care enough about his (or her) appearance. Good proxy! (Actually, I think it's a better proxy than makeup. Excellent proxy!)
No Birkenstock hate! I'm about as far as you can be from a frat boy OR a hippy and I've worn almost nothing but Birks (shut up, I mean on my feet) since I was 19. Because life is too short for uncomfortable feet, no matter how many of my gay friends tell me that ugly shoes is why I never get laid.
But typically they can still see their feet, and not just because they are wearing sandals.
True, but I have other canny ways of discerning whether or not someone can see their feet. I don't need to invoke a Tevas clause.
31: wearing hiking boots when you're not actively hiking at that very moment.
I fail! I wear my hiking boots whenever there's a significant amount of snow on the ground, which can be much of the winter where I live. They strike the right balance between not causing me to fall on my ass when walking over icy sidewalks, and not looking completely out of place indoors. I really don't know any better winter footwear.
Although I don't have any time to frivol today, I must comment that while I will go out with people who wear awful shoes (almost any kind of trainer, tevas, "sport" footwear generally) such footwear pretty much precludes any love/lust/interest at first sight from me. If you want to wear hideous shoes, you'd better be pretty damn fast with the repartee and exceptionally well-read also.
The badness of bad shoes is about half due to being made out of plastic; but there are bad leather shoes as well.
Tevas are just fine. As are sandals for guys. What are you supposed to wear with your shorts? Shoes? You're probably not wearing socks, so that's at least as gross as toe hair.
If you've told it, I don't recall the telling.
Well then! I was out to pick up some food and had thrown on whatever and did look pretty bad. I walked by the three women sitting on a bench and they broke out laughing about three seconds after I'd walked by. I picked up the food and headed back and they were still there, so I said "What were you saying about me?" I was kidding, but they weren't sure at first, so they were all "We weren't talking about you. Nuh uh. No, really we weren't." I persisted and eventually one of them caught on and said something like, "well, those pants are too baggy," and it was off to the races about the hole in my pants, my shirt was too long, it should be tucked in, I have hairy toes, etc. Pretty funny, all around.
For girls, Chacos are way cuter than Tevas. No velcro.
65 - oh yeah, I forgot about snow. I don't have snow opinions. Hike on.
And then they all went back to Ogged's and had sex.
Hiking boots are also nice for wearing when you're digging. I've been doing a lot of yard work lately -- landscaping half of our smallish front yard from lawn into garden with slate pathway and my footwear for that has been either my hiking boots or my Birkenstocksähnliche Doc Martens sandals (which after roughly 13 years of user are on their very last legs; but they do have a nice sturdy sole).
I can only ask, Cala, what the fellow in question is doing wearing shorts. Shorts!
Although if someone has to wear shorts, the shoes may be Converse (exempt from the no-trainers rule) or combat boots with socks or perhaps Vans without socks or else a decent pair of leather sandals, among which are numbered Birkenstocks.
Although, counterintuitively, massive quantities of punk rock points may be obtained by being a dorky, tofu-consuming, post-punk-hipster activist radical type while following absolutely NONE of these rules.
And when you have enough punk rock points, you can trade them in for a blender. For mixed drinks with little umbrellas, naturally.
I had a great pair of flip-flops with curly astrofturf topping. (Topping?) They didn't smell because there was no solid plane of contact and they didn't make noise and they fit perfectly, with no inner-toe blistering. (Inner-toe?) I lost them, like I lose all small good things.
I like my Tevas. I get it, but I like 'em. Fortunately, my bachelorhood seems to have entirely transpired during the off-season for sandals, so I can return my semi-naked feet to view without the burden of having to chase tail.
ogged, you really are a glutton for punishment.
(I also have a pair of similarly long-lived Tevas, which do not have velcro on them -- they are about the most Birkenstocksähnlich of the Teva line, or were when I purchased them.)
I had a great pair of flip-flops with curly astrofturf topping. (Topping?) They didn't smell because there was no solid plane of contact and they didn't make noise and they fit perfectly, with no inner-toe blistering. (Inner-toe?) I lost them, like I lose all small good things.
I like my Tevas. I get it, but I like 'em. Fortunately, my bachelorhood seems to have entirely transpired during the off-season for sandals, so I can return my semi-naked feet to view without the burden of having to chase tail.
All summer long I wear birks outdoors and flip flops indoors, mostly because my feet get hot, and I refuse to let any fashion police change my habits.
Also, during the summer I'm going in and out of the house a lot, and i like the fact that I can change from indoor footwear to outdoor footwear really quickly. Not only that, but birkenstocks come in vegan fake leather varieties.
Frat boys pick up on hippie fashion about 10 years behind hippies. Right now tie-die, hackysack, and birks are all frat-wear.
Although if someone has to wear shorts
Oh. My. Gawd. Best proxy ever.
Hm. Come to think of it, I don't have any standards at all for scruffiness on men. Tevas, Birkenstocks, no shoes at all, ugly sneakers, goofy sneakers... there are probably carefully crafted outfits that I'd find offputting, but not anything just worn for comfort.
Attractively dressed in nice, but completely optional.
you really are a glutton for punishment
If I had dressed up and they told me I looked bad, that would be one thing, but I knew I looked bad, so it was funny.
Forget shoes. You only get to smoke pot three times a year? Run! Run away!
flip flops indoors
I've never got the appeal of flip flops; they seem very uncomfortable to me. Any situation where they would be appropriate, bare feet are equally appropriate and feel better.
Any situation where they would be appropriate, bare feet are equally appropriate and feel better.
Bzzzzt. McDonald's.
Die, tie! (Stabs tie.) Tie died: Satisfied.
I've never understood womyns' facination with men with good shoes. Even the best men's shoes aren't that different than kenneth coles or whatever. Same thing with many womins revulsion at man toes.
84 gets it just right. And frat boys were wearing tie-dye and playing hacky-sack when I went to college in the late 80's, at least some of them were. Assuming my memory is clear, which is not always a reasonable assumption.
I've never understood womyns' facination with men with good shoes.
84: Maybe it was a typo, apo. She probably meant three times a day.
God, I shouldn't have looked at the feet in Apo's link. Fuck, this is going to stick in my head forever. Gaaaahhhh.
same thing
Even the best men's toes aren't that different from Kenneth Cole's?
90 was supposed to have "men with good" struck through.
Any situation where they would be appropriate, bare feet are equally appropriate and feel better.
The subway.
Any situation where they would be appropriate, bare feet are equally appropriate and feel better.
The subway.
88: Because men don't get to wear as wide a variety of clothes as women and so it may well be that the shoes are the only interesting part of the outfit?
Me, well, I was frightened in my cradle by a Teva; ever since I get terrible flashbacks and fall-down fits when I see them. This is why I can never go hiking when it's hot out.
I'm just horrified by nasty plastic puffy shoes, because when you've worn them for a while they get simultaneously flattened, stiffened and smelly--very unaesthetic. Clothes can be scruffy, old and battered but still have been washed recently.
Of course, it's probably because shoes are one of the clearest class markers if you know how to look at them. A lot of things can be faked but it's much harder to fake shoes. I expect that--on a horrid, semi-consciousl level--I use shoe snobbism to weed out people who don't meet my secretly snobby standards.
Although the best-looking and least-educated fellow I ever dated was much the sharpest dresser.
I only ever wore flipflops in Samoa, because I have a hell of a time toughening up that between-the-toes spot, and in a normal summer I don't wear them enough to get past the blisters. But I wore them pretty much without interruption for two years, and loved them after the first two-three weeks. They keep the actually sharp stuff out of the bottom of your feet, and otherwise it's as good as bare feet.
(I did spend three weeks with no shoes at all after a dog stole my last pair and the island I was on was out of flipflops in the stores, and my feet toughened up like you couldn't believe. I could have tapdanced on broken glass. But my students made fun of me.)
Any situation where they would be appropriate, bare feet are equally appropriate and feel better.
Showers of questionable cleanliness.
I know the site is still hinky..fixed soon, perhaps...off to swim...
The subway
See, I think the Birkenstocksentsprechungen are called for here.
The sidewalk of a major city, too. And next to a pool with hot pavement. But to me they really aren't very comfortable.
If you live anywhere where it's commonly over 95 degrees, any kind of sandal whatsoever gets a pass.
And not having to dress nicely is a feature, not a bug! I consider the fact that I can wear shorts, an untucked in comfortable shirt, and whatever pair of shoes I can find in the REI clearance rack to be one of the bigger plusses of my choice of career.
That said, the above description most definately DOES signify useful information to potential dates.
87: I swear I am not illiterate. I've just had too much coffee and allergy medicine
81: Look, I'll be the first to admit that most of my friends fall into some variation of the white & nerdy former nerdtastic prep type, but I'm not sure shorts are a good proxy for much. I mean, shorts at the office, yes. Shorts at a backyard barbecue? Could be a tool, could be a guy who is cool.
Class marker sounds right.
I'm just referring to the fact that some parts of an outfit might have a lot of options. pocketsquares, shirts. But shoes, there's like 5-10 option, where you pick out black vs. brown, laceups or loafers, brogueing, captoe. If you look a lot you might find monkstrap and light tan. Maybe even spectators or saddle. Much crazier than that and you look like a pimp.
I was feeling confused by the conversation until SCMT clarified:
the inference is, apparently, that the person doesn't care enough about his (or her) appearance
Fair enough, I don't care about my appearance. Now I'm only confused by how many people seem to think that not caring about one's appearance is a sign that one is a bad person.
(I don't own Teva's but have as an adult worn shoes that, in retrospect, even I admit were hideously ugly, which is saying something).
Also, living in a colder climate, the people who wear Tevas/sandles regularly tend to be seriously outdoorsy.
Now I'm only confused by how many people seem to think that not caring about one's appearance is a sign that one is a bad person.
Not a bad person. Just a deal-breaker.
Not a bad person. Just a deal-breaker.
Can't argue with that.
In other words, 104 gets it right.
I think people have a duty to look decent when they go out in public. Its certainly a lot more important than holding doors for people or saying 'excuse me' when you walk past someone in a itght place.
You know what I would consider a deal breaker in men's footwear? Those awful plastic Crocs things. Gah!
65 gets it exactly right, as does the first paragraph of 75.
I wouldn't consider it a dealbreaker, but it would probably end up being one as I would not be able to restrain myself from mocking the Croc-wearer.
Those would be weird. I'm endlessly forgiving of comfortable scruffiness. Deliberately chosen ugly fashion, on the other hand, could give me pause.
but I'm not sure shorts are a good proxy for much. I mean, shorts at the office, yes
That wasn't the proxy. The proxy was the phrase "have to wear shorts." To me, that's like saying, "If you have to smile." Such people and I are probably not good matches. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
111: What if they fail to live up to that duty?
117: Aren't the ugly-Crocs supposed to be deceptively comfortable? Or so I've heard. Seems like they're no different than other ugly comfortable things, just more extreme.
31: I'm wearing hiking boots now, mostly because it means I can get by with very few shoes. I own sandals (no, don't ask me the brand name) which I wear most of the time in the summer, and I have running shoes which I really should wear more often. But the rest of the time, hiking boots are fine for all but the worst weather here in Vermont and all but the most formal occasions.
The self-congratulatory way to think about this is "low-maintenance," but "lazy" might be just as accurate. For another data point, it's worth noting that I often find myself overdressed at bars or card game nights* when I don't bother changing out of the business casual clothes I had worn to work.
* Though admittedly, at Friday Night Magic, this isn't hard at all.
111: Dude, you would so hate it here in PDX.
I get the prohibition against Tevas, but it's still stupid. There just aren't a whole lot of comfortable summer shoes for men. I mean, you've got your leather laceup work shoes, fine, and your converse, fine, and maybe your hipster leather shoes, okay, and what the hell else? Tevas/birks, or else Nikes. I'd way rather date someone who wears tevas casually than someone who thinks that running shoes go with everything. At least the teva guy is likely to own shirts that don't have sports logos on them.
120: I think "extraordinarily hideous" is meaningfully different from "pretty ugly."
In places wear it gets insanely hot, failing to wear shorts can be a proxy for "I would feel self-conscious wearing this texas-shaped belt buckle, cowboy boots, and camo hat without my Wrangler dark wash jeans."
You know what's out? Crocs are right fucking out.
If you grow up in a place with a real summer, you'll learn to love shorts and flipflops. I'm embarrassed about wearing them here (I am right now, in fact) but not back at home.
107, no, no...you have it all wrong! None of this brogue/monkstrap/captoe foolery, but rather should the army boots be dress boots? Is it acceptable, as a critic of Israeli government policy, to wear Israeli desert boots? Is it ever permissable, aesthtically, to wear desert boots in beige? What about jump boots? Or those weird yet of the moment ones with the straps? And the vast array of Converse-ish options---well, show me a pimp who wears Converse and I will be fractionally more reconciled to pimping.
Tsk.
What I don't understand is the fascination with myriad tiny variations among men's dress shoes.
I'd way rather date someone who wears tevas casually than someone who thinks that running shoes go with everything.
Mmmhmm.
Tevas are just like flipflops, but with less colour option, and a lot more 'practicality' which is always ugly.
Wait, shorts on men are generally disfavored? I had no idea.
They look pretty silly at work in offices -- guys who push business casual to include shorts are clearly over the line -- but other than that, why not?
Black leather sneakers/walking shoes, full time. Replace once a year. Besides formal dress occasions, that's really all I need.
123: Or in the third world, for that matter.
I have a pair of doc marten's that are brogues. Now what!
Really, in the summer, all men should be shirtless and in lava-lavas and flipflops. All attractive men, anyway.
If you grow up in a place with a real summer, you'll learn to love shorts and flipflops.
I beg to differ.
133: True, but those people have just let themselves go. Sad, really.
Converse, no socks, shorts, t-shirt or short-sleeve button-down, baseball cap: Acceptable summer wear for men. I fucking hope.
131: I think it's just Frowner. And maybe heebie. Everyone else seems pro-shorts.
Shorts cut up your leg and make you less powerful or something. Class markers, all the way down.
People who find boots and jeans and a t-shirt unacceptable daily wear: unacceptable! They should thank us for doing everyone a favor by not misleading them!
Converse with no socks? Doesn't that rub? I suppose I've never worn mine without socks, so I don't know it's uncomfortable.
118: But this is all playful, yes? I mean, my Object of the moment has the ugliest trainers you could ever hope to see and actually looks rather cute in shorts as long as he's not wearing the trainers. It's fun to pretend that shorts and not-wearing-sporty-shoes matters precisely because it doesn't matter. The things that matter either matter enough that it's not fun to joke about them or else end up making things depressing.
Hooray for heartless frivolity on the intertubes is what I say.
That is, when I'm not being...er...what is one not supposed to be around here? Earnest, that was it.
I tend to associate shorts-wearing with dudebroism, but that's not actually fair since lots of other guys wear them too and you can't really generalize. Also I don't wear them personally because I'm uptight and stuff.
Frowner, heebie, I'm afraid it's over between us. I'm one of those people who wears shorts year-round (Carhartt -- union-made!).
Shorts cut up your leg
Dude, nobody wears fiberglass shorts anymore.
143: Well, personal-ad woman appears to have missed her shot at dating the Persian Casanova by ruling out Teva-owners. So there are real world consequences.
..."shorts and other things matter/do not matter"...
123: You can say that again.
All you women who keep pushing the "good shoes" idea? That's a-gonna bite you in the ass.
145: Oh, Heebie, now there's nothing to hold us together!
I'm sorry, but 132, well, just no.
I also have to put in a protest to the banning of fancy crazy men's shoes. Men's clothes are generally ultra-conservative, and it's really too bad. I kinda like guys who'll push the boundaries once in a while, and sharp shoes are one way to do that.
I admit I'd have a hard time with crocs, though.
That's a-gonna bite you in the ass.
s/b "in the arthritis"
most effective class marker EVAR: a t-shirt with this on it.
My growing awareness of the importance of wearing the proper shoes contributed significantly to the development of my no-relationship no-career policy.
I'm unclear. Why are shorts bad? I live in shorts during the summer when I'm not at work.
My sister, between marriages, told me that she refused to date men who owned sandals of any sort because they aren't sufficiently masculine. I told her this was ridiculous and so she asked what I avoid in men and I said, "Stupid hang-ups." I don't recall her liking that very much.
I'm usually anti-shorts, for both men and women. I do find my way into a billion exceptions, though.
Guys have to be allowed to wear shorts b/c they're not allowed to wear skirts.
I don't really like wearing shorts personally, but I don't mind them on other people.
Frowner, you and I understand.
To the rest of you all: It's not that I'm pro- or anti-shorts. I'm anti-ugly clothes in general. It's like jazz - you can't reduce fashion to easily enumerated rules.
Shorts on girls are great, except for those long skinny ones that come down and touch the knee. They do look retarded in the office though.
However, men's shorts that hit at mid-thigh are pretty awful. Go for the knee-length thing unless you're ultra fit and can carry off the 70s look. Which few people can do.
I need to find some shorts I like for the summer -- all of the ones I have are either gym shorts or hideous. I hate shopping for playclothes.
158:Guys have to be allowed to wear shorts b/c they're not allowed to wear skirts.
Naw, because linen or open-weave wool trousers are just as cool as shorts. What men need to be able to wear are sleeveless shirts and no ties in teh summer. And (nice, leather) sandals with suits.
I don't know how to wear sleaveless shirts without being either really brodudistic or really 'international-male'-gay.
162 gets it precisely backwards. If you can't pull off the mid-thigh 1970s straight-line sexshort, you have no business wearing shorts at all.
Is there such a thing as women's shorts that aren't hideous on women past college age? I refuse to wear shorts unless I'm on a bike.
155: Because they suggest sport. Or at least that's why they are bad to me, except th I deplore the argument that the male leg is unbeautiful and should not be displayed.
Sport! Rah-rah and sweat and competition and tight, shiny clothes made out of synthetics!
Also because they are sometimes denim, and denim is Bad.
"However, men's shorts that hit at mid-thigh are pretty awful. Go for the knee-length thing unless you're ultra fit and can carry off the 70s look. Which few people can do."
disagree here too. Long baggy shorts look the worst. The only way to wear shorts is mid-thigh and close-fitting. i don't remember the 70s so maybe thats what you meant.
If there's one thing to be avoided at all costs, it's the black sneaker pretending to be a semi-dress shoe. For the love of god, no.
Is there such a thing as women's shorts that aren't hideous on women past college age?
Dunno. I always own precisely one pair of shorts, very tiny, that I wear to clean and to pre-humiliate myself while jogging. Otherwise, it's pants and skirts for me.
and what the hell else? Tevas/birks
These are not the only men's sandals on this earth. (Though I think it is pretty hard for most men to pull off sandals of any sort.) Summer-weight pants are generally preferable to shorts, though I do like a well-turned calf.
In conclusion, I am in accord with 160.
170: usually accompanied by black chinos pretending to be dress pants, and a chain-store polo.
151: Fashion literacy has escaped me, so I'm making do with extreme practicality. I'm curious what your interpretation (class, cultural, whatever) is of what I described.
By chain-store i mean the wearer's employer, not where the wearer shops.
167: Eh, probably not, but what are you going to play in the park in on a hot day? I mostly end up looking hideous in them, I'm sure, but I'm still going to wear them.
165: Nonsense. If linen trousers are cool, then a linen or seersucker shirt with short sleeves is cool. That said, sleeveless shirts are okay if they don't have huge armholes and if you trim your underarm hair, for god's sake. And if you can find a nice pair of European type leather dress sandals, then wear them with your head held high, man. And tell me where you got them.
166: What's with the body fascism? If normal guys can't wear shorts, how are we to justify normal women wearing, say, a sleeveless dress?
trim your underarm hair, for god's sake
Sexist.
170: Amen.
173: Not the only, but you have to look damn hard to find anything else.
177: I tend to wear skirts for that sort of thing, but that's actually kinda hypergirly of me, so yeah: makes sense.
Oy, Tevas.
I am curious what's wrong with: "smoke pot more than 3 times a year [or] have anything to do with Burning Man...."
Cuz that's me, baby.
Come to think of it, ogged should hell of come to Burning Man this year. Guy lives in the Bay Area, after all.
On a hot day I wear loose linen pants or a skirt.
Anyone who thinks there's anything wrong with men wearing shorts is objectively Althousian. Franky, much of this thread is a fair bit too Althousian for my taste.
I don't know how to wear sleaveless shirts without being...really 'international-male'-gay.
I wouldn't sweat it; that ship has probably already sailed. See The only way to wear shorts is mid-thigh and close-fitting.
179: Guilty as charged; I went through an untrimmed underarm hair phase for a while. But if memory serves, I did usually surreptitiously trim before wearing something dressy and sleeveless.
180: I do that sometimes too, but then you need the right kind of skirts. I mostly just hate shopping for casual clothes beyond jeans and sweaters.
Naw, because linen or open-weave wool trousers are just as cool as shorts.
My sense is that bike saddles would not do good things to linen pants.
Anything I wear outside of the office has to be able to survive hopping on a bike on a regular basis.
183: Why are you being so mean to us? It's to make up for your small penis, isn't it?
I'm really surprised that as many people have admitted to fashion policing, considering how these threads go when its woman's fashion/image/etc being discussed.
I went through an untrimmed underarm hair phase for a while.
Ha! I'm feminist-er than B!
183: But doesn't all of this suggest that, per ogged, things like what you choose to wear, or how you decorate yourself, are pretty good proxies for how well you are likely to get along as a significant other with someone else? Advantage, ogged!
I mostly just hate warm weather. In the winter I can just wear flannel and jeans, but when it gets warm there's all these choices I have to make.
All these shoe posts and not one shout out. My heart, she is broken. Shoes, clothes, sandals, shorts, each has its niche. It is really not that hard, people. But then again, I only shop at about three stores, so what do I know.
186: Ah. I hate shopping for jeans, because you have to fucking try them on, which is a pain. For this reason, I currently do not own any jeans. Skirts, otoh, you can try on without having to take your shoes off, which makes it easy enough to bother.
I guess you could say that; my parents got me a bunch of stuff through Lands' End a few years ago and I've been wearing it ever since.
Objectively Althousian? Don't all the nice girls say "Althusserian"?
Oh, wait, you didn't mean Althusser, you meant what's-her-name, the blond. Huh. I bet Althusser wouldn't support shorts-wearing, though this may be an argument in favor of shorts.
I buy my jeans at Kmart; no trying-on required.
171: Saiselgy has one? I guess it's not as effective as I thought.
190: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Y'all are a bit more conventional on fashion than I would have suspected.
Does that support, challenge, or leave unaffected the Patriarchy?
190: I'm not surprised any longer, but remain baffled that anybody gives a good goddamn what other people wear.
188: well played.
192: It seems clear enough to me that a great deal of this proxy stuff is a way of class sorting, without admitting the classism at heart. On the other hand, I've learned that I probably shouldn't date you people, or Althouse.
Choices, teo? Get yourself a half-dozen plain t-shirts, a couple of pairs of these and a pair of these, plus, of course, boxer shorts. You're set for the summer. Anybody complains, tell them to fuck off.
202: I do care what people generally on the street wear -- I'd rather look at interestingly/attractively dressed people than a streetful of people in sweatpants. For people I know, I lose track of worrying about what quality of spectacle they make.
I probably shouldn't date you people
Racist.
It seems like classism, although a larger part is probably people who spend time thinking about visual aesthetics.
178: Linen is awesome. I was wearing my linen suit pants last night, and I felt like a GOD!
Well, no, but linen really is wonderful.
Is there such a thing as women's shorts that aren't hideous on women past college age?
These don't exist. The style seems to be either teenaged (short, very narrow, doesn't work once you actually get hips or an ass) or mom-of-four or for the gym. I have exactly one pair of non-gym-shorts that I can stand, and they're knee-length. In the summer I wear capri-length trousers or skirts.
198: Althouse famously called any grown man that wears shorts in public "half a man." I thought this was widely known.
But how serious are we-all? No, seriously--no one would really turn down a date with a hot prospect because they wore the wrong shoes, right?
I'm really picky about clothes for myself, and I like having very definite opinions about them. But--just like my very, very definite opinions on almost everything except social policy--I don't really care that much.
And this is all subject to the fact that fashion-as-it-is relies almost exclusively on sweated labor, and that the glut of clothes we in the first world generate has destroyed local economies all over the third world, particularly Africa. How could you really, really be serious about fashion under those circumstances? Fashion is just a set of premises to hang a conversation on, virtually always.
204: Why would I buy more things when I already have all these jeans (and t-shirts, which I mostly buy at Walgreens and similar places)?
God, if I ever meet you people I'm going to wear the stupidest clothes I own just to mess with you.
"Geez, Beefo Meaty seemed nice, but why was he wearing that purple sparkley Ellesse snowsuit from the eighties?"
Sorry, teo. It's Unfogged eye for the straight guy, so first you have to toss that stuff.
209: I've got a pair of jeans I wore through the knees last year. You people are all going to make fun of me if I wear them as cutoffs, right?
Some days I'm really glad no one can see through the screen.
I'm in complete agreement with 190 and 202.
My only hard and fast rule for myself is absolutely no short-sleeve button-down dress shirts. Those are awful. Everything else is flexible. And I'd never refuse to date a man solely because he happened to wear short-sleeve dress shirts. That would be shallow.
I'm mostly just talking about my preferences for my own clothes. I don't care what other people wear.
210: Dude, we don't read her blog. We leave that to you guys and Labs.
When I meet people dressed cheaply and without much attention to aesthetics, my first thought is there's a decent chance that means they spend their time and money thinking about and doing more interesting things than how to dress themselves, which makes the odds of them being an interesting person slightly higher. My second thought is they're somewhat less likely than average to be overly concerned with their appearance, which also correlates positively with general interestingness.
My only hard and fast rule for myself is absolutely no short-sleeve button-down dress shirts. Those are awful.
You're not including summery button-downs -- do you call them camp shirts? Because those are great.
White shortsleeve workshirts are pretty awful, I'll agree.
211: I don't find fashion all that important, though sometimes I make shivbunny dress up when he gets stuck on the white t-shirt/trackpants/tevas/i don't wanna bother it's hot out rut. Fashion's mostly just costuming.
210: I don't actually pay much attention to ol' Althouse. Her whole line of arguments are so far from original, as is her little wounded-maneating-tiger-flower routine, as are the arguments for and against her that...that...that I'd rather spend my time here, with you.
203, too: If you're looking for dates on Unfogged, you must be desperate indeed, my friend. Rumor has it, though, that Heebie has a nice ass. And Ogged must be a bit desperate by this point, so I suppose there's hope.
220: I mean things worn to work. Most especially with ties. Something about the look just screams "accountant."
219: I don't think that works. I'm a boring and uninspired dresser, but I don't think that's because I'm saving interestingness for other areas. People I know with stylish, well thought out and intentional clothes tend to be interesting people in lots of other ways.
Keep your fucking tevas. For all I know your feet might even be sexy. (It partially depends on the exact density and shading of the hair on the hairy toes.)
209: Bzzzzt, wrong. There's a shorts renaissance in women's fashion, e.g. So good.
It seems clear enough to me that a great deal of this proxy stuff is a way of class sorting, without admitting the classism at heart.
I don't think it's quite class, but it's something that often enough tracks class pretty closely. It--whatever it is that's being measure; probably something like "learned social mores"--remains something that's probably a pretty useful proxy in the selection of a potential mate. It's hard to imagine anyone not using some measure of that to determine a potential mate.
It seems like classism, although a larger part is probably people who spend time thinking about visual aesthetics.
Obviously it's classism, and also to a certain extent regionalism, combined with a healthy dollop of "cultural studies has become so popular everyone does it these days."
That plus men's clothes really are appallingly conservative, so there's not a whole lot to be opinionated about: do you prefer khaki or black? Beige or olive? Twill or denim? I mean, c'mon.
224: Yeah, I know plenty of people who are startling awesome and interesting dressers who are also startlingly awesome and interesting people. I think being well dressed in a generic, upscale mall kind of way is definitely an indicator of boringness, but to say that the whole realm of fashion is not interesting is a weird dis of human social interaction, a subject I find absolutely fascinating.
Arms, those things you linked are atrocious.
215: Not at all. Actual real cut offs are cool.
230's right. Am I correct in thinking the full picture is a . . . romper? Because those are the stupidest fucking things ever.
128: Denim IS a twill, b.
Men's clothing is all about high-price detail work. I agree most of it is really fucking boring, but you can find small retailers or have shirts custom made or things like that.
233: You know what the fuck I mean. Chino-type twill.
Men's clothing is all about high-price detail work. I agree most of it is really fucking boring, but you can find small retailers or have shirts custom made or things like that.
I'm as snobby about clothing as the next person, but you've got to be joking. Small retailers, sure; custom-made shirts, I don't see most people being able to afford on a regular basis.
I kind of want a romper. It would have to be in cotton and fit just perfectly for me to get over my prejudices about rompers, though.
234: That might be a better term for it, though I continue to think it's more than that. It's not as if status is fixed for all people. There are people who would be "objectively" high status who wear a lot of makeup; there are people with the same "objective" status that don't. Ogged would be distinguishing between the two, and probably usefully for his purposes.
I order them from china. Spending time finding unique things is a cost too, i guess, just like buying things for full price would be.
234: Yeah, group identity as a subset of class. Fashion's not just about identifying other upper-middle class people, it's about finding precisely those upper-middle class people who either did or might have gone to your high school.
(But it's also fun and pretty to look at, if other people do the work for me. So I'm for it.)
Just make sure you don't drink all that bottled water while you're wearing the damn thing.
233: Yeah, at the high(er) end you can find really cool fabrics, and tailored clothes make you feel like a king.
Also, there's plenty of men's clothes that are anything but conservative, they just aren't the kind of thing you can wear to, you know, work, and a lot of guys aren't comfortable wearing them (gay fashion chicken?). But if you're comfortable looking like you just stepped out of (a) a sci-fi movie, (b) a Decembrists video or (c) a nightclub, sure, there's some wild options around.
A former professor of mine had all his dress shirts custom custom made by a tailor in Hong Kong that he found online. He used it as an example of this crazy new globalized economy. Looked pretty good for $40 shirts.
And purely as spectacle, there should be more of that.
224/229 are of course correct--this is a crude proxy after all. The inverse isn't true at all, in my experience.
I guess my proxy is signalling that you flaunt social conventions, that's a good thing. Hairy legs/armpits on women pique my interest, not because I find them really sexy or anything (I'm pretty neutral on that front) but because of what they signal about that person.
242: Mmm hm. I visited a tailor on a recent S.E. Asia trip, and holy cow can you get some great clothes for very little money.
223:
Marge: Homer, you don't wear a tie with a short sleeve shirt!
Homer: But Sipowitz does it.
Marge: If Sipowitz jumped off a bridge, would you?
Homer: Aww, I wish I was Sipowitz.
Armsmasher, those would not work for me, alas, cala of the thunderous thighs that I am. They'd hit at exactly the wrong spot.
247: Yeah, on me the romper would be ridiculous, and the other pair would miraculously transform into momshorts. Which is only fair, given that it's what I am, but no one needs to look at that sort of thing.
208 -- I bought a linen cap recently -- on my way to the NYC Armsmasher Unfogged Extravaganza actually -- and I like it a lot. My only pair of linen trousers no longer fits me. Alack the day.
215 -- cutoffs are the most comely shorts.
247: Who knows, though? It's impossible for me to judge anything beyond a burka on models. They get paid because they're ridiculous genetic freaks who are great looking.
(Especially if you do not hem them and let the bottoms fray.)
I am floored by the shoe-judging going on here. Clearly 82 is the only reasonable position.
As for crocs, last summer at the field station where I sometimes work, all the science geeks, male & female, were wearing them (I assume they're comfortable.) The one person I know who wears them in the city also happens to be one of the snappier dressers I know; he has some foot problems, however, and is always up on the latest comfy-footwear.
It must be uncomfortable feet that's making you all such a bunch of haters. New Yorkers, get thee to Eneslow and sweeten up.
242: send the link! I love good clothes. I believe that the rules must be maintained but not enforced. As in, you should know that shorts are wrong, but go ahead and wear them, and allow your friends to mock you without pity.
A friend called yesterday. "I ran into your boss," he said. "He made fun of how I was dressed. I was dressed normal!" Do you mean wearing a blazer, a short-sleeved collar shirt, shorts and clunky black veggie-leather shoes? I asked. "Yes," he said, "that's exactly what I'm wearing." Never mind, I said.
I will occasionally wear a long-sleeve white linen shirt with pleated khaki shorts to play croquet in summer. The footwear is the hardest part: my leather flip-flops look good but are insufficient for knocking people out of the game. Sneakers don't quite make the ensemble. I have a fancy two-tone sandal that is a bit dressy but works out pretty good.
I'm comfortable saying things like "Shorts are back" and also acknowledging that women I know aren't actually wearing them. Though I would love it more girls started wearing rompers, provided that we can come up with a better term than "rompers".
If you go back to the early 60s, I believe you may refer to the garment in question as a 'sunsuit'.
252: Oh, I'm not saying they're not back, nor am I jealous of models, just that I'm pretty sure by now what looks good on me and stuff that hits the leg there isn't it unless it's a skirt.
245: Everything is cheaper in SE Asia. I'm thinking about making a trip to Bangkok just to take care of my dental problems and to pick up some nice clothes. I haven't been to a dentist since I lived there. Now that I think about it, I haven't had sex since I lived there.
237: There's different status hierarchies, and I guess they intersect in complicated ways.
I'm wondering what it says about my brother's status, or whatever, that his collection of footwear consists of Crocs, Simple clogs, and Tevas.
What's your half a man got to do with me?
You know, I think I could deal with Crocs, as ugly as they are, if they were brightly colored. Ostentatious ugliness is better than getting them in brown or olive.
Crocs come in practically every color known to man.
The place to order shirts is http://www.jantzentailor.com/ if the prof is using the same place i do. Its closer to 50$ now.
I saw a strapless terry-cloth sunsuit at a store the other day. Hell no.
I also don't wear shorts unless forced. I stopped around the time I came to New York.
I'm pretty close to 82. I prefer that my husband change out of his running pants & into jeans or something when he's done running. But that's hardly a big deal, and otherwise, bring on the scruffy.
Tobias on Arrested Development has ruined cutoffs forever.
Shopping at American Apparel, were we?
263: Read a "if guys didn't insist on wearing them in brown, black or olive" in there. They're meant to be whimsical shoes, play up the whimsy!
You can be just as colourful and whimsical with flipflops, and they don't look like clown shoes.
I like flip-flops, but they seem to be everywhere, and I'm not sure what to make of bejewelled flip-flops. Whimsical, yes. But flip-flops are intrinsically disposable that it seems silly to have elaborate ones.
I hope 274 isn't implying that there is such a thing as bejewelled crocs.
strapless terry-cloth sunsuit
Sure it wasn't a towel?
The men I know who wear Crocs do so because they're waterproof (it's the NW), and because you can slide them off easily once you come in from the rain.
275: I don't know, but it still seems strange that a flip-flop, plastic and for beaches, can be seen when someone is otherwise dressed up.
181 - OMG. Unfogged Camp at Burning Man this year.
Sandals anywhere else: work of the devil.
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! A thousand times wrong!
Around here, scientific types wear Tevas; the hippies, broheems, and senior faculty wear Birks (the latter with the obligatory socks); "serious" people wear loafers; and everyone else wears flip flops. Tevas are good for outdoor hiking or rafting, but ugly. Birks are comfortable, but expensive, as well as a little ugly. But I wear flip flops about 9 months out of the year. If I must be more formal, I like my Camper pelotas.
Any kind of open toe footwear demands neatly trimmed toenails and some degree of foot care, otherwise it's just gross.
Actually, this is pretty cute. I'd need to try it on.
280: That's what I'm talkin' about! We could set up a bar, and people could come in and overanalyze everybody else's outfits.
281: Yeah, same kind of thing here. Except for little old outlier me.
261: they're not tryin' to hear that, see?
286: You're one to talk, Mr. Won't-date-a-woman-if-she's-heavily-made-up-with-plucked-eyebrows-and-a-bone-in-her-nose.
it's sexy when a man wears a pair of good brown leather sandals. try it, you unfogged men!
SO much better than tevas. unfortunately my boyf owns both of the above, but there are plenty of dark corners and closets for me to lose his tevas in before summer begins...
he has beautiful legs too. woot. summer!
282: Hence its being the main selling point for people who live in rainy climates, as I said.
290: I figured it out. You mean they do not absorb water, not that they keep water away from your feet.
I figured it out because I'm a very smart little boy!
290: I think the difference between waterproof meaning 'will be undamaged by water' and meaning 'will keep your feet dry' was being queried there.
And my clarificatory efforts were unnecessary.
I hate having to do this, but could people mock me for commenting again? I'm blocked on another brief.
286: Shallow and honest, you mean.
LB, fuck off back to work.
I like the idea of brown leather sandals, but they make my feet look unpleasantly pale. These are what I ended up buying after I moved to the southwest.
I wear sandals, from Lands End and probably Birkenstock knockoffs, although I don't know, and don't those have straps behind the heal? Around the house in lieu of slippers when it's cold, or to take out the trash when I've taken my shoes off, and in summer when I'm wearing cutoffs.
Wow...I had no idea people had negative connotations for men who wear shorts rather than long pants sometimes.
I like the idea of brown leather sandals, but they make my feet look unpleasantly pale.
That's what the socks are for.
I bought myself these to wear with flipflops, and I don't want to hear a damn thing about it.
All I have to say is that nobody who has commented on this thread is allowed to complain about the idea that musical tastes can be a useful filter.
(though, in that case, I agree with the first paragraph of 255 mutatis mutandis)
Okay, nothing about the tabi socks, except why does their foot model have such painful bunions?
299: Shoes are a class thing. It takes money to have good shoes, and not just a lump of money, it takes consistent money over time. But anyone can listen to any music they want. So, shoes are a useful filter where music is simply not, at least in some ways.
Cutoffs are totally sexy.
Sandals with socks, I... I don't know what to say. Certainly I don't think people should feel badly about the way they look, even if they make some strange decisions sometimes.
I had no idea people had negative connotations for men who wear shorts rather than long pants sometimes.
At least where I live, it isn't the shorts so much as the kinds of shorts. Too many men, old enough to know better, walk around wearing too small shorts with ratty trainers and socks and a t-shirt tucked in to their shorts. Hey, I can live and let live, but it isn't that flattering a look. A good pair of summer-weight cotton or linen pants breathes just as well, protects you from the sun, and looks a lot more flattering on anyone over, say, 20.
So, anyway...is it somehow appropriate for women to have dozens of different ideas of how aspects of a man's appearance are proxies for his suitability on the grounds of class/priorities/cosmopolitanism, but not appropriate for men to have ideas of how aspects of a woman's appearance are proxies for her suitability on grounds of personality/priorities/narcissism?
The dissonance between "Shorts in public means douchebag, unless it's at a barbecue in 90-degree weather" and an earlier thread's "Dangly earrings and stilettos signify nothing at all" seems noteworthy.
The thing about men in shorts is that I spent a long time living in Paris, where, seriously, the only adult men (or women, really) wearing shorts were American tourists. There's a David Sedaris line about Americans coming over to France dressed as though they were there to mow the lawns. Obviously, the norm in most of the US is that there's nothing particularly wrong with shorts. So, when I go hiking or camping, or when I move furniture or play frisbee, I've gotten used to wearing shorts or seeing men wear shorts.
Sandals with socks confuses me on a functional level. Isn't the entire appeal of sandals that your foot gets to see the sunshine and breathe the fresh air?
"So, when I go hiking or camping, or when I move furniture or play frisbee"
I think this sums up why a lot of guys wear shorts when there's no clear reason for it; there's this vague, post-collegiate hope that a camping trip or hike or frisbee game will break out unexpectedly, like it used to.
On the other hand, I like shorts fine, because they are goddamn well comfortable.
306: And isn't the entire appeal of socks that they keep you from sweating all over the shoes that are smothering your feet?
306 gets it right.
And sandals with flip-flops -- isn't the entire appeal of flip-flops that you...well, I don't know what the appeal of flip-flops is, but it definitely has something to do with the fact that you can get them wet. Not so when socks are involved.
What the hell, people? What's wrong with Tevas? What am I supposed to put on my feet when it's 80 degrees out and I need to go out to the garage to do laundry?
Isn't the entire appeal of sandals that your foot gets to see the sunshine and breathe the fresh air?
The footsies can get chilly! (I'm totally guilty of the socks and sandals thing.)
OT, w00t! Shout-out for Modesto!
"sandals with flip-flops" s/b "socks with flip-flops".
308: No, they also prevent the shoe from giving you blisters.
How can one wear socks with flip-flops? Are they toed socks?
"306: And isn't the entire appeal of socks that they keep you from sweating all over the shoes that are smothering your feet?"
But noone who wears the sandal/sock combo ever wears light wool socks, its always those swamp-foot cotton gymsocks.
People, people. When it's 80 degrees humid outside and you're just doing your laundry, you can wear whatever you damned well please. You didn't really need me to tell you that, did you? Tevas are also ideal for hiking through rivers and sailing.
What the hell, people? What's wrong with Tevas? What am I supposed to put on my feet when it's 80 degrees out and I need to go out to the garage to do laundry?
A nice pair of summer-weight twill trousers, high quality lambswool socks, and a carefree (yet tastefully reserved), soft-sided oxford (two tones, perhaps alligator?).
Obviously.
304: Well, it's not exactly okay, but it's informed by the feeling that women are judged all the time anyway, so now we'll be all condescending and hard-line about those few things we can criticize about male appearance. Consider that the issue is sloppiness, mostly--women are never supposed to be sloppy. I see this in the labs all the time--men schlump around in baggy khakis and baggy old "American Society for Virology"-type tees all the time, with their hair all anyhow. There's only one woman scientist who does that, and whenever I see her--I, a woman and a feminist--I automatically think "There's a girl who should do more with herself".
I would also add that discussions of women's appearance are nearly always proxies for discussion of women's bodies--either of the drool-drool variety or of the "Ooh, and don't those women with fat asses understand that they shouldn't wear [X item of clothing]? It just makes [intentionally mean physical criticism]." Discussions of male appearance rarely are.
But noone who wears the sandal/sock combo ever wears light wool socks
Uh, yes I do.
But noone who wears the sandal/sock combo ever wears light wool socks
This is quite wrong -- hippies who wear socks with Birks usually wear light wool socks. (For some value of "usually")
I'm sure we'd all be happier if all bottoms were Speedos.
I think if ogged can overlook this woman's spelling of sandal "sandle", she can overlook his hobbit feet.
Tevas?!?!?!
Keens are what the cool kids wear.
306: The appeal of flipflops is that you can slip them on without having to bend over, which is exceedingly useful when you're rushing out the door to get your brat to school. The appeal of socks with 'em is that it might be kinda cool yet, or you don't want to get your feet dirty, or your feet are already dirty and you don't want to show 'em off. Also, when the floors are dirty, you can come home and take your shoes off (as all right-thinking people should do inside the house) and putter around in your socks instead of bare feet picking up the crumbs.
That plus I amuse myself by knowing that people think I'm insane.
So JM, are we going to get picture of you in your short shorts and socks and sandals? (Apostropher wants to know.)
The appeal of flipflops is that you can slip them on without having to bend over
It's too bad the liberal blogosphere has outlawed prison rape jokes.
317: But the original post was disparaging ownership of Tevas.
328: That's a pretty clever end run around the prohibition.
327.---It's sort of rare that I wear them all at once.
I think if ogged can overlook this woman's spelling of sandal "sandle", she can overlook his hobbit feet.
If someone were to contact this woman, "You misspelled 'sandal.'" would be a fantastic way to do it.
"The appeal of flipflops is that you can slip them on without having to bend over, which is exceedingly useful when you're rushing out the door to get your brat to school."
Having already put on your special Tabi socks just in case you should happen to be rushed?
Not buying it. You do this as an intentional fashion choice, don't you? Don't yooooouuuu?!
The low-hanging fruit in 332 boggles.
Smartwool socks ARE the best. My mother gives me a pair of Smartwool socks every birthday and Christmas, a tradition I'm encouraging shamelessly. (They're expensive!)
Does she need to know when my birthday is?
333: What were some of those other lines? "Your hair would look great if you wore it a different way"? Wasn't there one about "Do you believe in magic spells?"
But wouldn't you need a wingperson for this, Ogged?
331: Don't drop the soap, or you might end up getting the kids to school late.
So far, I have jackmormon and redfoxtailshrub on my cool Smartwool team. We win.
All men should wear three-piece mohair suits at all times.
341: And you win ... smartwool! Mazl tov. I used to have raffles to get rid of shit I don't want too.
312: #9 on the retirees list strikes me as an odd choice.
Totally OT: do you guys know that "Mrs. Meyer's Clean Day" brand of trendy cleaning supplies? The ones that come in like, lavender, geranium, lemon verbena, etc. scents?
Gross, man. My kitchen smells like a fucking perfume counter.
Teo, that would clash with the perfect outfit.
It's not just your Smartwool team, will.
334: I already admitted I enjoy it as a style choice. But I always put on socks in the morning, b/c I don't like cold feet. And quite often the only shoes I need to wear all day are flipflops, more's the pity.
342: I realized that I didn't know what mohair actually was, so I went and looked and discovered that "in Poland, mohair berets, which are particularly popular with elderly women, have become a symbol of bigotry and are usually associated with the ultra-Catholic Radio Maryja."
346: Not if you're sufficiently imaginative.
I used to have a mohair blanket. If you think wool is itchy...
"It's not just your Smartwool team, will."
You are resorting to making up archives just to be cool like me, jm, and redtail? That is ok.
Our team is inclusive, hairy toes and all.
I used to have a mohair blanket
And that's not a euphemism.
hairy toes referring to ogged, not JM or redtail. FYI.
342. Along with the strategic helium reserve, the government only recently ended the mohair subsidy. For dress uniforms, ya know.
I have a little hair on my big toe. Like, four hairs.
I bought a couple of pairs of Smartwool socks before going to Australia because the dude at REI convinced me that if I washed them in the sink, they'd be dry by morning so I could get away with packing fewer pairs of socks for my two week trip.
LIAR.
Those things took at least two days to dry.
358: If you tend and cultivate them properly, you'll no longer need to wear socks with your sandals.
360: Interesting: I'd never thought of it before, but maybe the socks with sandals thing is a form of hobbit envy?
Molly Ivons wrote a pretty great article on Berkeley as Hobbiton.
319: Are you serious or is this a parody of a self-justification?
322: "were" s/b "wore" (how did nobody beat me to that?)
I'm wondering what it says about my brother's status, or whatever, that his collection of footwear consists of Crocs, Simple clogs, and Tevas.
Status inquiry: single?
Keens are what the cool kids wear.
I have a pair of Keens. They make my feet look like slightly miniaturized pingpong paddles, and yet are not comfortable. How can this be?
364: "Serious" in the sense that "I think this is really wonderful"? No. Serious in the sense that "I think that this does inform female criticisms of male appearance"? Yes.
You know those conversations among women about "Oooh, aren't men awful? They're just dogs/little boys/blah blah". Those are not feminist conversations. And I think there's an element of non-feminism in all judgy conversations about dress and appearance. (Although there is often a large element of play as well). But I also think that both the "Aren't men awful" and the "No wonder he's single! Look at his shoes!" conversations are often a reaction to the much more powerful criticisms of women's behavior and appearance that are endemic to our culture.
If you want to read something that I consider friggin' hi-LAR-ious (that's also pretty well-written, says me) you might try Joanna Russ's satirical feminist novel The Female Man. There's a long section where women one-up each other about how awful their husbands are.
About the schlumpy-looking men are more culturally acceptable than sclumpy-looking women I am completely serious. I will stand by it based on spending a lot of time around academics and hence having a large, large pool of people who are acutely aware of different types of schlumpiness as status marker.
"I have a pair of Keens. They make my feet look like slightly miniaturized pingpong paddles, and yet are not comfortable. How can this be?"
Clearly, you are a loser. Keens are cool. Therefore, they are comfortable and you look cool wearing them.
Or, you bought fake Keens.
374: Well, of course I look cool wearing them. All except for the shoes.
Least interesting thread ever. More cowbell. More bestiality. More wonky shit. More baby pictures. Anything.
363, did it mention Normandy Village?
The rest of you: I'm too busy trying to scour my brain of images of feet (especially senior faculty feet!) in socks and sandals to say anything else.
NO. BAD. WRONG.
I find the image of feet in socks and sandals less repulsive than feet in sandals without socks.
Hairy feet, anyway.
If one's feet are that hideous, then one should cover one's shame properly with real shoes. Or get a pedicure.
If one's X are that hideous, then one should cover one's shame properly with Y. Or get a Z.
X = family members
Y = tarp (or Brownback blanket)
Z = gun?
X=squirrels
Y=fumigation tent
Z=very large cat
X = friend's crotch
Y= one's hand
Z = good mocking
I spent a summer a few years ago in which I wore almost daily flip-flops I had bought a couple of years before at a Wal-Mart (if I remember correctly). I think maybe two people commented on them, both of whom were women, both of whom said they were nice. No one asked me where I got them.
I have not read more than 10% of this thread.
About the schlumpy-looking men are more culturally acceptable than sclumpy-looking women I am completely serious
I don't doubt it, I know what you mean, and I know resentment is something hard to control and direct. But it seems sad to me that the one schlumpy woman in the professional staff should be the person you thought about "improving", or bringing up to spec.
Coming very late to the thread but BPhD maybe these are good for 178?
Karma-ishly, I was struck down by my own version of the shoe problem this morning. You see, women's business casual pants for the summer are pretty much designed to be worn with shoes and no socks--they're generally cropped or full-legged and in a lighter, more informal fabric. I don't like sandals very much and lab rules mean I can't wear them anyway; I walk to and from work every day and am exceedingly loathe to wear, say, socks and trainers with my work clothes and then change; and my feet are really hard to fit. So my choices boil down to wearing long, heavy pants and socks and shoes in the summer; wearing cropped pants with socks and shoes (last year's regrettable choice; it doesn't look good no matter how amusing and funky your expensive German shoes are); or destroying a couple of pairs of shoes by wearing them barefoot all summer, which will also cause my feet to blister and bleed.
This summer I decided on the last option, because the funding for my job ends at the end of next fiscal year and I want to start dressing a bit more properly so that I am ready to apply for a better one.
So this morning my feet are just slightly clammy-sweaty and my heel is bleeding, and I am reminded of my erstwhile lack of sympathy for difficult shoe choices. I take all of it back, except about the Tevas.
Also, last night I dreamed that I found a perfect pair of sturdy, arch-supporting ballet flats made by Birkenstock out of that sort of thick, mossy-green nubuck that they use. I was so happy in the dream that I may even take a quick look at the Birkenstock website to see if it was by chance some kind of prophetic dream.
That and I dreamed that my fellow collective members had stolen a train and we were driving it cross-country.
I dreamed that I found a perfect pair of sturdy, arch-supporting ballet flats
I once dreamed that Camel had put out a cigarette that tasted like blueberries.
Actually, it turns out that they have a pretty cute ankle-strap maryjane that looks like a knock-off of the ankle-strap maryjane I was considering from the deleriously expensive German company from which I generally procure my shoes. Sadly, no green nubuck. I might try them, or I might just damn the torpedos and order the German ones.
I once had an elaborate dream about a reissue of all Frankfurt-school related materials in attractive, inexpensive editions.
I was revising my position on bad fashion while coming to work today. Bad fashion, say on a date, is not actually a dealbreaker.
It would make me cringe a little though. And if it were sufficiently bad, and it did develop into a meaningful relationship, then in time I would gently steer them away from their most hideous mistakes.
Once you're in a relationship, you're *supposed* to buy acceptable clothes for the man. Otherwise we'd all still be wearing the same (tattered, too small) clothes we wore in college.
My experience hasn't quite been like that, 391.
And wait, I thought you male people hated it when we tried to change you.
See, Frowner? We'd be perfect together.
After this thread I had TLC's "No Scrubs" stuck in my head all of yesterday.
I hate you all.
Changing my wardrobe isn't changing me. I just wear whatever's next in the closet. If new things show up there, that's swell, because I like surprises.
Frowner:
You have to slowly and quietly show us the error of our fashion ways. Directly throwing everything out doesnt work. Buying us the correct stuff and putting the worst offenders in increasingly hard to find places works much better.
In a short time, we think that it was our idea.
Well, Nick, were you hanging out of the passenger side of your best friend's ride? Because then you're just asking for it.
Poor Buck -- I'm clearly not doing the maintenance work I'm expected to. My mother bought him a sweater once, but it was turquoise. Warm, though, and he likes it.
What kind of zero would live with someone for any extended time without having an impact on their habits and tastes? That the partner would acknowledge and take pride in? That ran both ways?
LB:
Does Buck wear tube socks with the stripe at the top?
Or black calf-length socks with shorts?
Does he ever wear a short sleeve shirt with a tie?
397 -- Thanks, now I'm never going to get it out of my head, I hate you.
No, I bike, much cooler.
393, 396: Well, I suppose that if I get to be the kind of wife who doesn't work and just charges expensive fancy new clothes for self and spouse to our accounts at various fancy department stores...I'd also like to have a loyal domestic staff, preferably with British accents--the really old-school appearing-in-novels kind where you hire them in youth and they stay on into old age and then pass their retirement being crotchety and bossing the parlormaids.
Otherwise, I'm not spending my valuable time and money on shirts for other people, alas.
"400 threadcount sheets!"
Amen sister!
When I was newly single, I went into a shop to ask for sheets. The lady told me she had some 400 count sheets for $70 bucks. I looked at her like she was crazy: "$70 for sheets?!?!?! Are you out of your mind?!??!!?"
She chuckled and said, "newly single?" and had me feel 400 count sheets. mmmmmmm nice.
402: None of the above. I would make fun of him for the shirt-tie combo. Or the black socks and shorts. The stripy tube socks aren't an impossibility, and I probably wouldn't notice them if they showed up, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't got any like that.
I hear that it's not the threadcount, it's the finish.
How did "No Scrubs" start playing? Was there sartorial advice to hospital orderlies? I thought it was all about the footwear.
There must be a gene for fixing guys up. My two sisters and my niece all buy me clothes. The niece isn't even divorced yet.
387: Obviously this will not work with all shoes, but one option for the bare-legged look while insulating your feet from your non-sandal shoes (and vice versa) are tiny ped-type footie socks or even toe-cap half socks.
Today I'm wearing Chaco's, knee-length Prana shorts, and a t-shirt from REI. Just FYI.
I'm wearing brown pants and a striped shirt. And sandals.
After this thread I had TLC's "No Scrubs" stuck in my head all of yesterday.
And thanks to you, now so do I.
I've never bought shivbunny clothing, but he has deschlubbed a bit while we've been together, and he has very good taste when he feels he has a reason to deschlub.
412: Nowhere near my perfect storm of undatability.
The women don't necessarily need to buy the clothes, although that helps bc if it is there, men will wear it.
The primary role of a good significant other is to mock others who are wearing offensive clothes. Then, the man should realize that he too has those same clothes and get rid of them.
brown can be anything. What kind of fabric? Burlap?
Brown is a popular color for formerly-white shirts, and for formerly-yellow shirts.
Hmm. Since you're rumored to be callipygian, I suppose you can get away with whatever.
Khakis. But not khaki colored. Am I spelling that right? It's swimming before my eyes.
409: Not only do pedish things not work with most of my shoes, but they won't even stay on my giant feet. Normally I love having big feet, both because I am a big person and need them for aesthetic balance and because I think big feet [watch out, appearance judgement ahead] look better than tiny ones, but sometimes I wouldn't mind being, say, a size 9 instead of a 10.5.
I don't really like regular sandals that much. I did once have a pair of close-toed, sandal-like shoes that I adored. I got them resoled a couple of times. They had a thick chunky heel and were a bit like mary janes with strips along the front of the foot. Really comfortable for a dress shoe. I traipsed around Italy in them. I wish that I'd bought two pairs.
423: Actually, he does.
424: Have you tried Salt-Water Sandals? (Google for a site to buy them online.) Really comfortable, and although a bit little-girlish, civilized looking enough to pass as a dress sandal. Jackm suggested them and I'm loving them.
My wife just bought a pair of Crocs. Divorce?
