I just figure I'm advertising my elevated testosterone levels
Which will, ironically enough, lead to eventual baldness.
Usually after one has spread one's seed. Not to worry.
Hairless pudenda looks disturbing. And yet when I see these random people's contributions to a porn blog, about 90% of the women (probably median age: 20) are hairless.
Is there something we should know about?
Yeah, I'm not bald yet.
Apparently fashion for (younger?) men means a lot more waxed chests these days, too.
This seems to be a distinctive, largely porn-driven shift in expectations. A professional acquaintance was somewhat taken aback when a female undergraduate student (from overseas) met with him to discuss a research topic for a term paper and said, "My research question is: Why are American men obsessed with women shaving their pubic hair?"
Is there something we should know about?
Ogged is balding? Cripes, that explains a lot.
Hairless pudenda looks disturbing.
I kind of agree, but whatever. At the point that you're actually confronted with a hairless pudenda, does the confronted ever really care?
Here's an amazing combination of socialized responses for you - I was in a discussion about shaving with some other women a while back and we all noted that shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards.
This blog is actually a research study isnt it?
Tim, you seem to become agitated about this topic, but I'm not bald, nor am I noticeably balding.
i I dislike my own body hair and trim it about as much as is possible without exiting from the 'male' category in girls' minds.
Sparse hair is not very attractive. Moreover, human body unmodified (ie, in a state of hippyness) is a demonstration of the lack of aesthetic consideration and manipulation of the world, and hence, a sign of one's lack of full humanity.
Also, I'll vote that hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender --- for both parties. I know some people who swear it improves sensation for just about everything.
At the point that you're actually confronted with a hairless pudenda, does the confronted ever really care?
Evidently some people really care about being confronted with hairy pudenda, so, maybe.
Incidentally you can get some odd looks from people if you exhibit knowledge of the difference between ephebophilia and pedophilia.
11: As I said, it's just that it would explain so much.
I'm just surprised by how fast expectations can change. Wouldn't most people agree that shaving or waxing at all (say, beyond anything that'd show in a bathing suit) was quite unusual until the early 90s or so? I don't have any kind of sense of porn or strippers, but in the civilian population, the shift from pubic hair removal as quite unusual to arguably more common than not happened in less than a decade.
(I am reminded of a friend of mine who was a receptionist in the sleaziest workplace on the planet back in the early 90s, and had a client show her some porn magazines he was bringing in for her boss. (The business was garment manufacturing -- the porn was recreational.) Among them was a magazine called Shaving Snizz, devoted to intimate shaving pictures. That had to have been 94 or 95, and I remember at the time thinking it was unusual.)
"Here's an amazing combination of socialized responses for you - I was in a discussion about shaving with some other women a while back and we all noted that shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards."
Huh. The only thing i don't do anything to is hair on my forarms, because its pretty light, and also my forarms are really small, and it makes them look less so.
Isn't shaving more to do with an increase in the commonness of sodomy? Hair in the mouth isn't so fun.
I like that, by ogged, making two comments in two years on the same subject counts as agitation.
Hair in the mouth isn't so fun.
I bet you don't like to floss, either.
1) Pudendical standards are wildly variant. It's not like the average person discusses them with a wide range of people.
2) The only major shared medium whereby such standards are disseminated is porn (ok, and unfogged). Thus, lots of people will take cues from it - whether it's men, to manage/oppress women, or women, to judge/oppress themselves.
3) Conclusion: Stunted culture, about which it is hard to make generalizations behind the basic.
Yes also on the socialized response.
18: ogged agitates in geologic time.
21.2) Or men, to judge/oppress themselves.
9: Huh. Funny, I wouldn't have exactly said thinner, but I do know what you mean.
I don't floss, actually, but thats more a consequence of laziness plus lack of need: i've never had a cavity, and assume once a day brush plus some mouthwash is enough to keep it that way.
It was Ruskin, wasn't it, who on his wedding night was supposedly so appalled to discover that women had pubic hair that he was unable to consummate his marriage.
Related to Becks' comment, most athletes remove most of the hair on their bodies. Hairlessness becomes a component of being athletic.
9:
shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards
My mother told me not long ago that shaving one's legs made them look thinner. I wanted to say something about stripes.
Wouldn't most people agree that shaving or waxing at all (say, beyond anything that'd show in a bathing suit) was quite unusual until the early 90s or so?
I'm pretty sure that women in porn had pubic hair until, what, eight or ten years ago? Kotsko would know.
26: Technically this was not a discovery about women in general, but about one particular woman. She could have been the only woman on earth with pubic hair, for example. In that case, he would have been right to be nonplussed.
Thongs and no pubic hair became popular around the same time.
26/30: Apparently this is not actually attested, just surmised.
Leg and armpit hair is funny, because that one feels to me like a RULE of normal American grooming -- like, my employer would be entitled to tell me to leave the office if I showed up with visibly unshaven legs. I've gone unshaven in the past (and I go awfully stubbly now, but not long enough to see from a distance), but wouldn't even think about trying to seriously buck this one in an office environment.
29: So simultaneous, or porn only led by a couple of years.
downy blondes are hot. Don't shave if you're a downy blonde.
I think this was culturally mediated by high school crushes and not really veldt-related.
hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender
True, but you can take care of this in the relevant areas without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
34: Couldn't you wear pants and unsexy shoes? Ankle length skirts are so out of fashion it'd be unprofessional.
I wonder when women started shaving their legs to modern hairless standards. Without knowledge, I'd guess it was whenever fashion started to show leg, but who knows - maybe there was a period when mild hair was not frowned upon?
My fiancee claims her arm hair is thicker than her leg hair. And she wears long pants about 363 days out of the year. Still, there is no social obligation to shave the arms, while she is always apologizing for only shaving the legs every 2 weeks or so.
36:
I wasnt referring to porn. For all I know, it might have been earlier.
31: Hah, it's Monica Lewinsky's fault! Lewinsky, and the coverage of the scandal, mainstreamed the thong, and shaving followed because hair emerging from the leg-hole of ones' underwear looks weird.
Okay, maybe thongs aren't Lewinsky's fault, but I bet there's a connection through the fashionability of thongs.
Lizardbreath:
Do the women wear hose in your office?
Down here, women rarely wear pantyhose, even in law firms.
hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender
Whenever you see cultural shifts, efficiency-based explanations are not far behind, rationalizing away.
39: I do usually wear pants in the winter, but not universally enough to stop shaving. (Growing out stubble itches. If I'm going to shave every month or two, I might as well shave every week.)
12:Moreover, human body unmodified (ie, in a state of hippyness) is a demonstration of the lack of aesthetic consideration and manipulation of the world, and hence, a sign of one's lack of full humanity.
'bout sums me right fine. Understates the case, actually. Or sums yoyo up, or both, since we complete opposites in every way.
I remember the first coed I met that didn't shave her legs, was 1971...
44: I don't in the summer -- in the summer, some do some don't, in the winter everyone wears pantyhose if not wearing pants.
True, but you can take care of this in the relevant areas without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
Absolutely!
If you are going to get a brazilian, don't put your hair into pigtails and call Assistant U.S. Attorneys.
47: Right. I don't believe the efficiency explanation, because the shaving trend came long after any increase in sodomy.
I suspect that sentiment is totally age-dependent, and mirrors opinions about oral. I'd guess current age of 32 is the dividing line. Counterexamples would be people who are older that think shaved is default (not exotic, be honest) and people who are younger that believe the converse.
Missy Elliott's lyric "Phone before you come, I need to shave my chocha" dates from 2002, so common then.
Ms Elliott is 36, but one presumes that her zeitgeist leans young. From the MTV show about celebrity homes, she's not much of an interior decorator either.
Whenever you see cultural shifts, efficiency-based explanations are not far behind, rationalizing away.
That's nonsense. I'm conducting an ongoing study that suggests that it (better oral) is objectively true. I'm pretty confident with the numbers.
Given that the shaving of pubic areas is a completely private question, a matter of shared experience between the shavee(s) and their partners, it's a completely separate question from the shaving of public areas.
Well, not completely separate, I suppose: insofar as desirable (young) women are apparently supposed to be completely shaved these days, eh. I don't know: I view the shaving of women's arms and legs as a distancing of them from animality. Women stand for civilization.
So if women are now also supposed to shave their pubic areas as well, is this just a function of transient tastes (driven by porn, apparently), or does it signal even more emphasis on a felt need for civilizing control over our animal natures?
eh? Not felicitously put. Written quickly.
that one feels to me like a RULE of normal American grooming
Move to Seattle for a few years. Incredibly freeing.
No hose is just too sexy. please don't norm that.
didn't thongs become popular the same time as britney's ultra-low cut trousers?
Also, wrt 48, i take it that beards are usually acceptable, if they're neatly trimmed. But more than a day or two of stubble isn't. Combined with teh lack of vacation time most people get, how do you transition?
B is right in 38. The efficiency/oral aspect doesn't explain the amount of shaving that goes on.
54: That sounds about right to me -- if I'm right that the fashion dates from the mid-90s, 32-year-olds would still have been in college when it hit.
I'd never heard of shaving/waxing one's arms until I moved to NYC. It never even crossed my mind. Even though my forearms are kinda hairy, I'm not going to do it. There's a line.
53: I propose that the shaving was a trailing indicator of the rise in sodomy. The tipping point did not come until the thong trend appeared, first with Lewinsky and later with other mainstreaming events including this, in spring of 2000.
Given that the shaving of pubic areas is a completely private question, a matter of shared experience between the shavee(s) and their partners, it's a completely separate question from the shaving of public areas.
You forgot Pornland.
47/53: What about a lag due to fear of social expectations? I know a lot of people who claim to do this for purely functional reasons (not to complete hairlessness, in many cases).
54: I'm a counterexample. Otoh, I guess you really have to look at average age of partners, not age of person.
58: Nope, thongs came first. Again remember Lewinsky hiking down her waistband to show off her thong?
64: Which kind of counterexample are you?
What I'm getting from this thread is that "imposter syndrome" is a person who receives a lot of oral sex from a wide array of people who are much younger than him. Just making sure everyone understood the point of his various comments.
64: that would be telling.
67: why `him' ?
What about a lag due to fear of social expectations? I know a lot of people who claim to do this for purely functional reasons
The equilibrium will typically shift (the expectations part) for reasons having nothing to do with function, but people will typically be convinced that their choice was either natural (as Ogged pointed out at the start) or sensible and rational according to some functional or efficiency criterion. This happens all the time.
I shave with the same rusty cavalry saber that I use to open bottles of champagne, and any woman who would know Flippanter's love does likewise.
Shaving/sodomy link seems wrong to me. At the risk of discussing mechanics, hair doesn't really get in the way much with reasonable grooming, otherwise yuck anyway. Now, there may be individuals who'd prefer not to look at it, but the claim is what, steric hindrance? Get real.
If only all men were swimmers and cyclists, and all women read Cosmopolitan, the human species would enter a glorious, pre-pubescent, civilized era. All because of the golden razer, and the ensuing hairlessness. *angels singing in the background* Why hadn't we come up with this before? Oh, right: razer burn.
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
I am probably the only one here who has been thru the transition from beardless button-down 50s to mountain man/Girl 70s to our new again Corporatist Porn-star reactionary age. Amanda M revisited the "Personal is Political" essay in her own inimitable way, so I won't criticize any of you tools for supporting the fascist patriarchy. That would be wrong.
Hair is freedom. Let my fucking freak flag fly.
Come the revolution, hair will flow in streets like borscht. Really nasty, gross, borscht.
70: Yes, I know about the effect ... but in this case I'm not convinced it's the case. Basically because I'm convinced it's objectively better for some things.
Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
I've witnessed many such discussions. Same goes for the thong conversation. Almost always, these two topics are started by the women in the group.
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
Now what are you trying to signal to us?
If you are going to get a brazilian, don't put your hair into pigtails and call Assistant U.S. Attorneys.
On the contrary! Do it by all means, and then get them arrested.
I remember having a conversation like this, perhaps ten years ago, at ye olde college co-op. Mostly what I remember is that several of the men had not previously considered grooming their pubic hair at all, and were very interested to discover the middle ground of trimming.
78:
Hang out with a bunch of Labor and Delivery Nurses one night. They are not afraid of these discussions.
82: Sitting around in the Murph? Was the bathtub still there when you lived there?
Oops. I read that as "...veldt on the back..."
Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Nah, here we don't even know how to pronounce OB-GYN.
Now what are you trying to signal to us?
I wasn't aware I was trying to signal anything, at any point. Just saying that while some of the experience I'm drawing from in saying this is direct, some of it is indirect.
Maybe my friends just talk about sex in unusually open ways, I don't know.
Also, sampling bias.
Hang out with a bunch of Labor and Delivery Nurses one night. They are not afraid of these discussions
Also they get a systematic if biased observational sample.
Yup, in the Murph. The bathtub is still there now (though not the one in the Murplhet... that one met a spectacular end off the back deck).
Mostly what I remember is that several of the men had not previously considered grooming their pubic hair at all, and were very interested to discover the middle ground of trimming.
Those days of honesty, before guile, before we all learned the term "optical inch".
OT: Am I just being fussy, or is getting a sentence like this: The holding in that case is directly on point here as the warrant holding Plaintiffs are attempting to bring causes of action against the Defendants that it has no standing to bring as warrant holders, and not shareholders.
in a draft from someone with a law degree really astonishingly depressing?
hair doesn't really get in the way much with reasonable grooming, otherwise yuck anyway
"Reasonable grooming"? Until the brazillian entered the game, it simply never occurred to me to groom my pubic hair *at all*. Then, disliking hairs in my own throat, I decided to try (moderate, non-freaky) shaving just for the hell of it, found it increased sensitivity, and decided okay, that makes sense.
That said, I noticed (tmi) that last time I visited the bf, I was too lazy/busy to, uh, prep, and he seemed to rather appreciate the aesthetics, so hey: I'll now think about this middle range of "reasonable" grooming.
92: It's better than something I would come up with.
90: Man, I really liked that place. I wish I weren't so bad at keeping in touch with people.
"Reasonable grooming"? Until the brazillian entered the game, it simply never occurred to me to groom my pubic hair *at all*.
At all? It never occurred to you? Even with all the other aesthetic body-hair things that people do?
It occurred to me independently. I thought it looked better when I trimmed it. Less chaotic.
92- I'd answer, but I want a cut of the billable hours.
94: What's throwing me is the lack of agreement between 'Plaintiffs' and 'its', although the sentence is clunky otherwise.
Also they get a systematic if biased observational sample.
No shit. Who the hell can shave their own pubes after they're five or six months pregnant???
never occurred to me to groom
Showing my slovenliness, I guess. I consider washing frequently to be a form of grooming. I wasn't born in the US.
92: With not only a law degree but a decent enough one to be working where you do? Oh hell yes. Even more depressing that said someone will bill every hour spent writing such drivel and every hour spent revising to bring it up to some semblance of clarity.
92: it makes me too confused to be depressed.
96: Not at all, except during swim season, when one would trim the edging a bit.
100: Usually the only time I ever hear the word "groom" is in talking about animals removing parasites from each other. Or at a wedding.
I'm an old man married to an old woman, feeling like maybe I live on a different planet than you younger folks. I really had no idea.
truthfully, I don't understand the point of 67. I thought this was a good place for pretty open discussion. Did what I said come across weirdly? Or is openness that way not ok? I can leave if i'm annoying.
I'm going to agree with LB that the growing in of stubble makes shaving sporadically a pain in the arse (even though I'm talking about legs/pits here -- the arse is just metaphor, though stubble on the arse is surely a pain in the neck). Waxing seems preferable for that reason, because (like the ads promise) the hair growse in softer and sparser and not sharpened to a razor tip. Still, I'm totally lazy and tend to get fairly fuzzy between removals. Which, even in the summer months (i.e. skirt weather) and even at a law firm never seems to be a problem. Possibly because I am lucky enough to have fairly light leg hair. Perhaps partly because no one in any authority is going to want to reprimand a gal for not having adequately groomed leg hair because that would seem to imply looking just a bit to closely at a woman's legs. In Chicago, I get the impression only women over, say, 45 or so still wear hose. (Unless it's cold, maybe, but in Chicago once it gets cold we just switch to thermal long johns and pants. Teh sexy.)
I'm an old man married to an old woman, feeling like maybe I live on a different planet than you younger folks. I really had no idea.
In my professional capacity, that is a mostly excellent answer.
Strike "to an old woman," and insert "married to the same fabulous woman for a long time."
Chill, defensive person. If you can't take a li'l bit of shit, you'll never survive.
without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
This is really the issue to me, and why not all shaving is equal. Shaving your legs and pits (women) or chest and back (men) perhaps makes you more closely resemble much younger people, who can nonetheless be sexually mature. A shaved crotch gives you something in common with prepubescents. I can see being attracted to young people (until they start talking) but I can't get behind being attracted to people with no secondary sex characteristics.
And I also completely don't buy the argument that it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth. I am aquainted with the unspeakable vice of the Sodomites, and hair really isn't a big problem. My previous roommate, a much younger guy, gave me the impression that shaving is quite common among the youth of today, and moreso among those particularly attuned to pop culture.
92. The decline in intellectual objects is to be expected in a culture where nobody fixes anything; the world of ideas is following the decline in quality of tangible objects
which are created only to be unwrapped and discarded rather than to be kept around, and for the same reasons.
Then there's laser hair removal. Which I'm told is awesome if you have the right hair color/complexion combination; a friend got a couple of sessions on her legs and finds that it helps a lot, even though she didn't go back enough for them to get everything. I keep considering it for the more unruly and razor-burn-prone parts of my facial hair.
109: or throw "your mom" into the phrase, that would work too.
106: You weren't terribly annoying, but you sounded like you were bragging about having lots of partners, and about discussing sex more openly then all us bourgeois types. Both of those things may be true, but if you set yourself up like that, people will make fun of you.
Not a problem, really, unless it bothers you --everyone gets made fun of.
111: It's not about keeping hair out of the teeth (that's just a bonus). It feels better. But as B.phd notes, it's not necessary to remove all trace to achieve that.
83: re: 56,
Namely: "I view the shaving of women's arms and legs as a distancing of them from animality. Women stand for civilization."
Hair is freedom. Let my fucking freak flag fly.
It's not often I understand enough of bob's ramblings to agree, but in this case: absofuckinglutely.
the argument that it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth
Oh, I don't think it's *all* about that. But it's not a bad reason for grooming the pubes.
I think I make a valid point in 30.
116: It that's all it was, no problem.
I don't even know what `lots of partners' is, really. That seems really high varitation. I've got feedback (of whatever type) on the shaving/not thing from enough people both sexes to make a social scientist happy, that's all I meant.
105:Yes, a good comment
111:A really wrong comment to make would be saying that the difference between a pre-pubescent and adult pudenda is obvious at a glance, and hair is not the only difference.
It would be a lie. Untrue. I have no idea. Really.
123: See, there you go again. "My sex partners form a sufficiently large random sample to make valid statistical inferences about the population. I am the Pollster of Luuuuve."
But that must be very entertaining for you.
But now I'm just picking on you. I'll stop.
78: Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Not necessarily unbiased. I have consciously adjusted the scope and manner of waxing based on knowledge of an upcoming Ob-Gyn appointment. Stupid, pathetic, and prudish, I know.
it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth
I don't understand how grooming my pubic hair is going to keep it out of my teeth... What are you trying to signal to us?
I've sampled like, a billion or so partners, and the overwhelming consensus is "keep it Seventies." Social scientists love me, you squares.
The shaving thing is a bit annoying. Not that I would kick someone out of bed, mind you, but there's a definite attractiveness about someone who doesn't shave; not just pubically, I mean legs, armpits, what-have-you.
Peope seem to be talking about this as if it can only have one explanation. There's no reason it can't be driven by the ubiquity of porn/social expectations AND by people saying "huh, pretty cool oral with minimal hair".
And those of you downplaying the unpleasantness of a mouth full of hair all either have a hair fetish or have dated only naturally not-very-hairy people. Though BPhd is right that this is solvable without going to the 8 year old's crotch look.
"I can see being attracted to young people (until they start talking)"
The first 3 times i read this, i thought you meant sex with babies was ok, but once they learn to speak, you are not longer attracted. Which is pretty creepy.
113: You know, with an infinite amount of money to throw away on this stuff, I'd think about laser hair removal. Not ever having to think about it again would be nice.
I'm surprised more men don't -- plenty of guys are committedly cleanshaven, and the face is a fairly small area. It seems like a natural hassle-avoidance.
127: One of the most mortifying moments of my life was going to the hospital with contractions a couple days after I'd shaved (with help) (in my 7th month) solely for the sake of hilarious fake-fetish pregnancy photographs as baby shower gifts I swear (no, not involving actual nudity, only revealing outfits). I couldn't stop thinking that here was this doc staring at my naked pubes. Jeezameezus.
130: The mouthful of hair is a feature. You only know you're doing it right if you're still picking them out of your teeth the next morning.
At least... I'm told certain unspecified people feel that way.
but there's a definite attractiveness about someone who doesn't shave; not just pubically, I mean legs, armpits, what-have-you.
I agree, this is a signifier of an attractive attitude. But for me it is trumped by the unattractive appearance if the hair is very dark and contrasts obviously with the skin. Sucks to be a Sicilian, as mentioned earlier.
127: Martha used to do the same thing, until she worked up the courage to ask her doctor about it.
The doctor said she'd seen it all, and the only thing that fazed her anymore was the jewelry.
125: I already noted sampling bias was a problem. And yes, you are.
I guess I just got my back up a bit at the implicit suggestioin that you and all of your friends are doing this for purely conformist reasons. You can't have preferences based on actual utility.
130:I will have to check my ancient notes, but IIRC, if you are getting a mouthful of hair, you may not be performing optimally. Although you could be very talented.
"is a signifier of" s/b "signifies"
sorry everyone for showing off my college-essay-padding skills.
135: Well, admittedly I kind of draw the line at mustaches or pelt-like hair, which okay, totally sexist. But still.
134: Ack, choke, gag.
Plus it interrupts the proceedings if you have to stop to gag and pick hair out of your throat. Not. Sexy.
I'm surprised more men don't -- plenty of guys are committedly cleanshaven
For the same reason that a lot of men who are committedly non-procreative don't get vasectomies. You might not want any more kids/a beard, but it's nice to know you could if you needed to.
128: You mean you can't... hey, man, that's cool. No worries, everybody has different advantages. I'll bet you have a great personality.
137: Hey, who said I was shaving, beyond the legs and pits? I've just been talking about what I understand is the norm among the youf these days.
142: I look forward to getting one or the other of those procedures. The Paradox of Choice means that leaving the option of a beard open forces me to make the decision of whether to shave or not every day, incrementally but consistently increasing my stress level.
141: Okay, well... I see your point. Hair in the throat = bad, hair in the teeth = acceptable. Comity?
T-Shirt Idea: "Shave the Carp." For some reason, the phrase cracks me the fuck up. I'm still laughing, and now people are starting to look at me.
142: that, and playing with sharp things.
142, 150: Yeah, and I suppose the whole symbol of masculinity thing enters into it.
138: Well, mouthful is admittedly a bit of an overstatement. All it really takes is one.
Has anyone mentioned the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" episode relevant to this yet? I can't figure out how to type the "dry-ish version of hacking up phlegm sound" that one would engage in to get ride of said offending hair(s). But that episode will stand in nicely.
148: Sure. See? Yet another advantage straight guys have. I hate you all.
Oh no wait, we were going for comity. Comity all around! Men are all right by me!
DS: keep it Seventies and no mustaches?
"without making yourself look like a prepubescent."
I don't get this. Shaving around mature genitalia doesn't make it look prepubescent at all.
I was under the impression that laser removal, like, hurts. Shaving your face is not comparable to shaving other parts because of the number and sensitivity of nerve endings there and the number and robustness of the hair follicles.
107, 149 -- You people are scaring me. See, I've had this mustache since 1978 -- the kids, hell, the wife, has never seen me without it. And never will!
Hrmm. Given my previous reference to Hustler I'd say that seeing the 'Beaver Shots' section (amateur pictures, often apparently taken in dirty truckstop bathrooms) in the late 70's put me permanently off the au natural thing. Particularly since that went out of fashion immediately thereafter and therefore looked funny. It doesn't symbolize anything to me excepting that you don't shave and might be dirty.
On the other hand, the whole android/Bratney/plastic Barbie look (complete with anorexia, entirely unnatural tan, silicone chest, no eyebrows and lots of base) seems not only strange but also disgustingly prepubescent.
But if a guy grows up with that look as a teenager, I don't doubt that he will imprint on that look and thus it will seem not only entirely normal, but hot. And anything not like that will be gross. The reverse would be true for boomers. I will further bet that the style will come around again to au natural in the next decade in reaction to this decade.
max
['Ok, done being ponderous.']
145: I was inarticulate, sorry. I meant I was getting the impression from comments (not necc. yours) that the only reason people were doing this was conforming to fashion. (Someone else noted there probably isn't only one reason, which I think is true). I noted that many people I know do this but vast majority of them claim it is done for functional more than aesthetic reasons. I disagree with the dismissive claim of some that this is just rationalization.
I also noted that I'd already said my own experience probably has sampling bias, which you were teasing me about, but I don't think that's what you responded to.
Midnight at the Mountains of Madness
WORST MARIA MULDAUR SONG EVER
159: Hah. I've been married a couple of weeks short of ten years (OMG I need an anniversary present) and I've never seen my husband's chin.
156: It doesn't make the genitalia look prepubescent, it makes the person attached to the genetalia look prepubescent.
161: Yeah, and you could be right. I don't think you are -- that is, even if people sincerely believe that shaving is functionally preferable, and even if they're right, that still doesn't mean that a mass recognition of that truth is what led to the fashion change. My guess is that the fashion changed because they do, and then people rationalized. But I haven't got proof, obviously.
It doesn't make the genitalia look prepubescent, it makes the person attached to the genetalia look prepubescent.
In my experience (I'm really asking for it, aren't I?) this really depends on the person. I guess by itself it doesn't but could contribute.
166: If you have a baseline image of pubic hair as a differentiator between children and adults, removing it is going to make the person look more like a child. If your image of a naked adult was formed after shaving became common, you probably won't have this reaction.
142: As much as a beard may be a symbol of masculinity one doesn't want to abandon (or abandon the potential for), I don't think anyone would miss the neck-beard.
from experience: at least some of the women shaving, and some of the men interested in shaved women, are going for a pre-pubescent look implicitly or explicitly. Whether you achieve an exact simulacrum is beside the point; the symbolism is plenty.
169: I'm pretty sure this is part of why it's a big deal in Pr0nland.
I guess my point was if the rest of their appearance doesn't support the idea of `childlike', then it doesn't appear that way (at least to me). Say a man with hair on his chest but not on his genitals, or a woman with substantial breasts, neither of these look childlike to me with completely bare genitalia. Just as examples. I can imagine if someone is already somewhat childlike in appearance this effect could be strong (and creepy).
the fashion change
I'm freaking out a little at hearing the question of whether one shaves one's pubic region referred to as a *fashion* question.
It's not even clear to me how prevalent it is. Is it supposed to be a shift in standards of personal grooming? This is not quite the same as fashion.
But. To the extent that it is prevalent and represents both grooming and fashion, well, wow. The pronification of the personal.
I don't think the claim is that you'll mistake someone for a child.
A shaved crotch gives you something in common with prepubescents.
So does a shaved face. And yet, hairless or not, adult faces and genitalia are easily distinguished from prepubescent ones. This is just a fashion swing. You barely ever see chest hair on television any longer.
I'm pretty sure this is part of why it's a big deal in Pr0nland.
Probably, though I'd have thought it's also more sexdoll type stuff --- hyperreality and all that. Goes along with the platinum blonde hair and the fake boobs.
How bout this:
It looks childlike to those of us who are accustomed to seeing adults with a certain amount of pubic hair.
It doesn't look childlike to those who are accustomed to seeing adults without pubic hair.
(Also, what one consciously thinks isn't the be-all and end-all; it's undeniable that children lack pubic hair and adults have it; therefore, adults shaving (pubes, arms, legs, pits, faces, etc.) demonstrates, at least in part, a cultural preference for a younger appearance.)
I actually suspect that the biggest motivation in pornland is the "show more, show more!" one. The pre-pubescent thing is probably just a lucky bonus effect.
I'm not sure we should get tracked into younger/older. I think parsimon is on to something with the more/less natural, or more/less civilized.
172: It's not even clear to me how prevalent it is. Is it supposed to be a shift in standards of personal grooming? This is not quite the same as fashion.
I don't see the distinction.
This is one of those things where the origin of the fashion, and why people for whom it's mainstream like it, don't have to be connected. I'm pretty sure the hairless genitalia fashion is a porn thing, and within porn I'd bet (and people claiming more knowledge than I have, which isn't much, seem to agree) that it came from porn invoking a prepubescent image. That doesn't mean that wanting to screw 12-year-olds is necessarily at all what someone who likes the look now that it's a mainstream fashion is thinking.
it's undeniable that children lack pubic hair and adults have it
Same with facial hair, though, and nobody freaks out about shaving that.
My guess is that all you kids just never wash or shower or wipe or whatever. It is true that we cousin it types require more attention.
That doesn't mean that wanting to screw 12-year-olds is necessarily at all what someone who likes the look now that it's a mainstream fashion is thinking.
But it doesn't mean it's not, either. You perverts.
another thought: what about correlation between shaving and piercings for some? Barring fairly purely functional piercings, what's the point if nobody can see them?
179, 182:I think B is more right than LB about the porn industry.
I am trying to remember when shaved became common in porn. After mid-80s, I think, like 5 years of Reagan.
174, 178: Thank you. Jesus, I wasn't saying, shave the pubes and all of a sudden you can't tell if it's a kid or an adult anymore.
What would be a "purely functional piercing"?
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