I just figure I'm advertising my elevated testosterone levels
Which will, ironically enough, lead to eventual baldness.
Usually after one has spread one's seed. Not to worry.
Hairless pudenda looks disturbing. And yet when I see these random people's contributions to a porn blog, about 90% of the women (probably median age: 20) are hairless.
Is there something we should know about?
Yeah, I'm not bald yet.
Apparently fashion for (younger?) men means a lot more waxed chests these days, too.
This seems to be a distinctive, largely porn-driven shift in expectations. A professional acquaintance was somewhat taken aback when a female undergraduate student (from overseas) met with him to discuss a research topic for a term paper and said, "My research question is: Why are American men obsessed with women shaving their pubic hair?"
Is there something we should know about?
Ogged is balding? Cripes, that explains a lot.
Hairless pudenda looks disturbing.
I kind of agree, but whatever. At the point that you're actually confronted with a hairless pudenda, does the confronted ever really care?
Here's an amazing combination of socialized responses for you - I was in a discussion about shaving with some other women a while back and we all noted that shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards.
This blog is actually a research study isnt it?
Tim, you seem to become agitated about this topic, but I'm not bald, nor am I noticeably balding.
i I dislike my own body hair and trim it about as much as is possible without exiting from the 'male' category in girls' minds.
Sparse hair is not very attractive. Moreover, human body unmodified (ie, in a state of hippyness) is a demonstration of the lack of aesthetic consideration and manipulation of the world, and hence, a sign of one's lack of full humanity.
Also, I'll vote that hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender --- for both parties. I know some people who swear it improves sensation for just about everything.
At the point that you're actually confronted with a hairless pudenda, does the confronted ever really care?
Evidently some people really care about being confronted with hairy pudenda, so, maybe.
Incidentally you can get some odd looks from people if you exhibit knowledge of the difference between ephebophilia and pedophilia.
11: As I said, it's just that it would explain so much.
I'm just surprised by how fast expectations can change. Wouldn't most people agree that shaving or waxing at all (say, beyond anything that'd show in a bathing suit) was quite unusual until the early 90s or so? I don't have any kind of sense of porn or strippers, but in the civilian population, the shift from pubic hair removal as quite unusual to arguably more common than not happened in less than a decade.
(I am reminded of a friend of mine who was a receptionist in the sleaziest workplace on the planet back in the early 90s, and had a client show her some porn magazines he was bringing in for her boss. (The business was garment manufacturing -- the porn was recreational.) Among them was a magazine called Shaving Snizz, devoted to intimate shaving pictures. That had to have been 94 or 95, and I remember at the time thinking it was unusual.)
"Here's an amazing combination of socialized responses for you - I was in a discussion about shaving with some other women a while back and we all noted that shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards."
Huh. The only thing i don't do anything to is hair on my forarms, because its pretty light, and also my forarms are really small, and it makes them look less so.
Isn't shaving more to do with an increase in the commonness of sodomy? Hair in the mouth isn't so fun.
I like that, by ogged, making two comments in two years on the same subject counts as agitation.
Hair in the mouth isn't so fun.
I bet you don't like to floss, either.
1) Pudendical standards are wildly variant. It's not like the average person discusses them with a wide range of people.
2) The only major shared medium whereby such standards are disseminated is porn (ok, and unfogged). Thus, lots of people will take cues from it - whether it's men, to manage/oppress women, or women, to judge/oppress themselves.
3) Conclusion: Stunted culture, about which it is hard to make generalizations behind the basic.
Yes also on the socialized response.
18: ogged agitates in geologic time.
21.2) Or men, to judge/oppress themselves.
9: Huh. Funny, I wouldn't have exactly said thinner, but I do know what you mean.
I don't floss, actually, but thats more a consequence of laziness plus lack of need: i've never had a cavity, and assume once a day brush plus some mouthwash is enough to keep it that way.
It was Ruskin, wasn't it, who on his wedding night was supposedly so appalled to discover that women had pubic hair that he was unable to consummate his marriage.
Related to Becks' comment, most athletes remove most of the hair on their bodies. Hairlessness becomes a component of being athletic.
9:
shaving our legs felt good in part because we always felt thinner afterwards
My mother told me not long ago that shaving one's legs made them look thinner. I wanted to say something about stripes.
Wouldn't most people agree that shaving or waxing at all (say, beyond anything that'd show in a bathing suit) was quite unusual until the early 90s or so?
I'm pretty sure that women in porn had pubic hair until, what, eight or ten years ago? Kotsko would know.
26: Technically this was not a discovery about women in general, but about one particular woman. She could have been the only woman on earth with pubic hair, for example. In that case, he would have been right to be nonplussed.
Thongs and no pubic hair became popular around the same time.
26/30: Apparently this is not actually attested, just surmised.
Leg and armpit hair is funny, because that one feels to me like a RULE of normal American grooming -- like, my employer would be entitled to tell me to leave the office if I showed up with visibly unshaven legs. I've gone unshaven in the past (and I go awfully stubbly now, but not long enough to see from a distance), but wouldn't even think about trying to seriously buck this one in an office environment.
29: So simultaneous, or porn only led by a couple of years.
downy blondes are hot. Don't shave if you're a downy blonde.
I think this was culturally mediated by high school crushes and not really veldt-related.
hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender
True, but you can take care of this in the relevant areas without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
34: Couldn't you wear pants and unsexy shoes? Ankle length skirts are so out of fashion it'd be unprofessional.
I wonder when women started shaving their legs to modern hairless standards. Without knowledge, I'd guess it was whenever fashion started to show leg, but who knows - maybe there was a period when mild hair was not frowned upon?
My fiancee claims her arm hair is thicker than her leg hair. And she wears long pants about 363 days out of the year. Still, there is no social obligation to shave the arms, while she is always apologizing for only shaving the legs every 2 weeks or so.
36:
I wasnt referring to porn. For all I know, it might have been earlier.
31: Hah, it's Monica Lewinsky's fault! Lewinsky, and the coverage of the scandal, mainstreamed the thong, and shaving followed because hair emerging from the leg-hole of ones' underwear looks weird.
Okay, maybe thongs aren't Lewinsky's fault, but I bet there's a connection through the fashionability of thongs.
Lizardbreath:
Do the women wear hose in your office?
Down here, women rarely wear pantyhose, even in law firms.
hairless (or nearly) gentitalia can make oral more fun regardless of gender
Whenever you see cultural shifts, efficiency-based explanations are not far behind, rationalizing away.
39: I do usually wear pants in the winter, but not universally enough to stop shaving. (Growing out stubble itches. If I'm going to shave every month or two, I might as well shave every week.)
12:Moreover, human body unmodified (ie, in a state of hippyness) is a demonstration of the lack of aesthetic consideration and manipulation of the world, and hence, a sign of one's lack of full humanity.
'bout sums me right fine. Understates the case, actually. Or sums yoyo up, or both, since we complete opposites in every way.
I remember the first coed I met that didn't shave her legs, was 1971...
44: I don't in the summer -- in the summer, some do some don't, in the winter everyone wears pantyhose if not wearing pants.
True, but you can take care of this in the relevant areas without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
Absolutely!
If you are going to get a brazilian, don't put your hair into pigtails and call Assistant U.S. Attorneys.
47: Right. I don't believe the efficiency explanation, because the shaving trend came long after any increase in sodomy.
I suspect that sentiment is totally age-dependent, and mirrors opinions about oral. I'd guess current age of 32 is the dividing line. Counterexamples would be people who are older that think shaved is default (not exotic, be honest) and people who are younger that believe the converse.
Missy Elliott's lyric "Phone before you come, I need to shave my chocha" dates from 2002, so common then.
Ms Elliott is 36, but one presumes that her zeitgeist leans young. From the MTV show about celebrity homes, she's not much of an interior decorator either.
Whenever you see cultural shifts, efficiency-based explanations are not far behind, rationalizing away.
That's nonsense. I'm conducting an ongoing study that suggests that it (better oral) is objectively true. I'm pretty confident with the numbers.
Given that the shaving of pubic areas is a completely private question, a matter of shared experience between the shavee(s) and their partners, it's a completely separate question from the shaving of public areas.
Well, not completely separate, I suppose: insofar as desirable (young) women are apparently supposed to be completely shaved these days, eh. I don't know: I view the shaving of women's arms and legs as a distancing of them from animality. Women stand for civilization.
So if women are now also supposed to shave their pubic areas as well, is this just a function of transient tastes (driven by porn, apparently), or does it signal even more emphasis on a felt need for civilizing control over our animal natures?
eh? Not felicitously put. Written quickly.
that one feels to me like a RULE of normal American grooming
Move to Seattle for a few years. Incredibly freeing.
No hose is just too sexy. please don't norm that.
didn't thongs become popular the same time as britney's ultra-low cut trousers?
Also, wrt 48, i take it that beards are usually acceptable, if they're neatly trimmed. But more than a day or two of stubble isn't. Combined with teh lack of vacation time most people get, how do you transition?
B is right in 38. The efficiency/oral aspect doesn't explain the amount of shaving that goes on.
54: That sounds about right to me -- if I'm right that the fashion dates from the mid-90s, 32-year-olds would still have been in college when it hit.
I'd never heard of shaving/waxing one's arms until I moved to NYC. It never even crossed my mind. Even though my forearms are kinda hairy, I'm not going to do it. There's a line.
53: I propose that the shaving was a trailing indicator of the rise in sodomy. The tipping point did not come until the thong trend appeared, first with Lewinsky and later with other mainstreaming events including this, in spring of 2000.
Given that the shaving of pubic areas is a completely private question, a matter of shared experience between the shavee(s) and their partners, it's a completely separate question from the shaving of public areas.
You forgot Pornland.
47/53: What about a lag due to fear of social expectations? I know a lot of people who claim to do this for purely functional reasons (not to complete hairlessness, in many cases).
54: I'm a counterexample. Otoh, I guess you really have to look at average age of partners, not age of person.
58: Nope, thongs came first. Again remember Lewinsky hiking down her waistband to show off her thong?
64: Which kind of counterexample are you?
What I'm getting from this thread is that "imposter syndrome" is a person who receives a lot of oral sex from a wide array of people who are much younger than him. Just making sure everyone understood the point of his various comments.
64: that would be telling.
67: why `him' ?
What about a lag due to fear of social expectations? I know a lot of people who claim to do this for purely functional reasons
The equilibrium will typically shift (the expectations part) for reasons having nothing to do with function, but people will typically be convinced that their choice was either natural (as Ogged pointed out at the start) or sensible and rational according to some functional or efficiency criterion. This happens all the time.
I shave with the same rusty cavalry saber that I use to open bottles of champagne, and any woman who would know Flippanter's love does likewise.
Shaving/sodomy link seems wrong to me. At the risk of discussing mechanics, hair doesn't really get in the way much with reasonable grooming, otherwise yuck anyway. Now, there may be individuals who'd prefer not to look at it, but the claim is what, steric hindrance? Get real.
If only all men were swimmers and cyclists, and all women read Cosmopolitan, the human species would enter a glorious, pre-pubescent, civilized era. All because of the golden razer, and the ensuing hairlessness. *angels singing in the background* Why hadn't we come up with this before? Oh, right: razer burn.
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
I am probably the only one here who has been thru the transition from beardless button-down 50s to mountain man/Girl 70s to our new again Corporatist Porn-star reactionary age. Amanda M revisited the "Personal is Political" essay in her own inimitable way, so I won't criticize any of you tools for supporting the fascist patriarchy. That would be wrong.
Hair is freedom. Let my fucking freak flag fly.
Come the revolution, hair will flow in streets like borscht. Really nasty, gross, borscht.
70: Yes, I know about the effect ... but in this case I'm not convinced it's the case. Basically because I'm convinced it's objectively better for some things.
Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
I've witnessed many such discussions. Same goes for the thong conversation. Almost always, these two topics are started by the women in the group.
Am I the only one here who has had the shaved/not shaved conversation in largish groups?
Now what are you trying to signal to us?
If you are going to get a brazilian, don't put your hair into pigtails and call Assistant U.S. Attorneys.
On the contrary! Do it by all means, and then get them arrested.
I remember having a conversation like this, perhaps ten years ago, at ye olde college co-op. Mostly what I remember is that several of the men had not previously considered grooming their pubic hair at all, and were very interested to discover the middle ground of trimming.
78:
Hang out with a bunch of Labor and Delivery Nurses one night. They are not afraid of these discussions.
82: Sitting around in the Murph? Was the bathtub still there when you lived there?
Oops. I read that as "...veldt on the back..."
Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Nah, here we don't even know how to pronounce OB-GYN.
Now what are you trying to signal to us?
I wasn't aware I was trying to signal anything, at any point. Just saying that while some of the experience I'm drawing from in saying this is direct, some of it is indirect.
Maybe my friends just talk about sex in unusually open ways, I don't know.
Also, sampling bias.
Hang out with a bunch of Labor and Delivery Nurses one night. They are not afraid of these discussions
Also they get a systematic if biased observational sample.
Yup, in the Murph. The bathtub is still there now (though not the one in the Murplhet... that one met a spectacular end off the back deck).
Mostly what I remember is that several of the men had not previously considered grooming their pubic hair at all, and were very interested to discover the middle ground of trimming.
Those days of honesty, before guile, before we all learned the term "optical inch".
OT: Am I just being fussy, or is getting a sentence like this: The holding in that case is directly on point here as the warrant holding Plaintiffs are attempting to bring causes of action against the Defendants that it has no standing to bring as warrant holders, and not shareholders.
in a draft from someone with a law degree really astonishingly depressing?
hair doesn't really get in the way much with reasonable grooming, otherwise yuck anyway
"Reasonable grooming"? Until the brazillian entered the game, it simply never occurred to me to groom my pubic hair *at all*. Then, disliking hairs in my own throat, I decided to try (moderate, non-freaky) shaving just for the hell of it, found it increased sensitivity, and decided okay, that makes sense.
That said, I noticed (tmi) that last time I visited the bf, I was too lazy/busy to, uh, prep, and he seemed to rather appreciate the aesthetics, so hey: I'll now think about this middle range of "reasonable" grooming.
92: It's better than something I would come up with.
90: Man, I really liked that place. I wish I weren't so bad at keeping in touch with people.
"Reasonable grooming"? Until the brazillian entered the game, it simply never occurred to me to groom my pubic hair *at all*.
At all? It never occurred to you? Even with all the other aesthetic body-hair things that people do?
It occurred to me independently. I thought it looked better when I trimmed it. Less chaotic.
92- I'd answer, but I want a cut of the billable hours.
94: What's throwing me is the lack of agreement between 'Plaintiffs' and 'its', although the sentence is clunky otherwise.
Also they get a systematic if biased observational sample.
No shit. Who the hell can shave their own pubes after they're five or six months pregnant???
never occurred to me to groom
Showing my slovenliness, I guess. I consider washing frequently to be a form of grooming. I wasn't born in the US.
92: With not only a law degree but a decent enough one to be working where you do? Oh hell yes. Even more depressing that said someone will bill every hour spent writing such drivel and every hour spent revising to bring it up to some semblance of clarity.
92: it makes me too confused to be depressed.
96: Not at all, except during swim season, when one would trim the edging a bit.
100: Usually the only time I ever hear the word "groom" is in talking about animals removing parasites from each other. Or at a wedding.
I'm an old man married to an old woman, feeling like maybe I live on a different planet than you younger folks. I really had no idea.
truthfully, I don't understand the point of 67. I thought this was a good place for pretty open discussion. Did what I said come across weirdly? Or is openness that way not ok? I can leave if i'm annoying.
I'm going to agree with LB that the growing in of stubble makes shaving sporadically a pain in the arse (even though I'm talking about legs/pits here -- the arse is just metaphor, though stubble on the arse is surely a pain in the neck). Waxing seems preferable for that reason, because (like the ads promise) the hair growse in softer and sparser and not sharpened to a razor tip. Still, I'm totally lazy and tend to get fairly fuzzy between removals. Which, even in the summer months (i.e. skirt weather) and even at a law firm never seems to be a problem. Possibly because I am lucky enough to have fairly light leg hair. Perhaps partly because no one in any authority is going to want to reprimand a gal for not having adequately groomed leg hair because that would seem to imply looking just a bit to closely at a woman's legs. In Chicago, I get the impression only women over, say, 45 or so still wear hose. (Unless it's cold, maybe, but in Chicago once it gets cold we just switch to thermal long johns and pants. Teh sexy.)
I'm an old man married to an old woman, feeling like maybe I live on a different planet than you younger folks. I really had no idea.
In my professional capacity, that is a mostly excellent answer.
Strike "to an old woman," and insert "married to the same fabulous woman for a long time."
Chill, defensive person. If you can't take a li'l bit of shit, you'll never survive.
without making yourself look like a prepubescent.
This is really the issue to me, and why not all shaving is equal. Shaving your legs and pits (women) or chest and back (men) perhaps makes you more closely resemble much younger people, who can nonetheless be sexually mature. A shaved crotch gives you something in common with prepubescents. I can see being attracted to young people (until they start talking) but I can't get behind being attracted to people with no secondary sex characteristics.
And I also completely don't buy the argument that it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth. I am aquainted with the unspeakable vice of the Sodomites, and hair really isn't a big problem. My previous roommate, a much younger guy, gave me the impression that shaving is quite common among the youth of today, and moreso among those particularly attuned to pop culture.
92. The decline in intellectual objects is to be expected in a culture where nobody fixes anything; the world of ideas is following the decline in quality of tangible objects
which are created only to be unwrapped and discarded rather than to be kept around, and for the same reasons.
Then there's laser hair removal. Which I'm told is awesome if you have the right hair color/complexion combination; a friend got a couple of sessions on her legs and finds that it helps a lot, even though she didn't go back enough for them to get everything. I keep considering it for the more unruly and razor-burn-prone parts of my facial hair.
109: or throw "your mom" into the phrase, that would work too.
106: You weren't terribly annoying, but you sounded like you were bragging about having lots of partners, and about discussing sex more openly then all us bourgeois types. Both of those things may be true, but if you set yourself up like that, people will make fun of you.
Not a problem, really, unless it bothers you --everyone gets made fun of.
111: It's not about keeping hair out of the teeth (that's just a bonus). It feels better. But as B.phd notes, it's not necessary to remove all trace to achieve that.
83: re: 56,
Namely: "I view the shaving of women's arms and legs as a distancing of them from animality. Women stand for civilization."
Hair is freedom. Let my fucking freak flag fly.
It's not often I understand enough of bob's ramblings to agree, but in this case: absofuckinglutely.
the argument that it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth
Oh, I don't think it's *all* about that. But it's not a bad reason for grooming the pubes.
I think I make a valid point in 30.
116: It that's all it was, no problem.
I don't even know what `lots of partners' is, really. That seems really high varitation. I've got feedback (of whatever type) on the shaving/not thing from enough people both sexes to make a social scientist happy, that's all I meant.
105:Yes, a good comment
111:A really wrong comment to make would be saying that the difference between a pre-pubescent and adult pudenda is obvious at a glance, and hair is not the only difference.
It would be a lie. Untrue. I have no idea. Really.
123: See, there you go again. "My sex partners form a sufficiently large random sample to make valid statistical inferences about the population. I am the Pollster of Luuuuve."
But that must be very entertaining for you.
But now I'm just picking on you. I'll stop.
78: Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
Not necessarily unbiased. I have consciously adjusted the scope and manner of waxing based on knowledge of an upcoming Ob-Gyn appointment. Stupid, pathetic, and prudish, I know.
it's all about keeping hair out of your teeth
I don't understand how grooming my pubic hair is going to keep it out of my teeth... What are you trying to signal to us?
I've sampled like, a billion or so partners, and the overwhelming consensus is "keep it Seventies." Social scientists love me, you squares.
The shaving thing is a bit annoying. Not that I would kick someone out of bed, mind you, but there's a definite attractiveness about someone who doesn't shave; not just pubically, I mean legs, armpits, what-have-you.
Peope seem to be talking about this as if it can only have one explanation. There's no reason it can't be driven by the ubiquity of porn/social expectations AND by people saying "huh, pretty cool oral with minimal hair".
And those of you downplaying the unpleasantness of a mouth full of hair all either have a hair fetish or have dated only naturally not-very-hairy people. Though BPhd is right that this is solvable without going to the 8 year old's crotch look.
"I can see being attracted to young people (until they start talking)"
The first 3 times i read this, i thought you meant sex with babies was ok, but once they learn to speak, you are not longer attracted. Which is pretty creepy.
113: You know, with an infinite amount of money to throw away on this stuff, I'd think about laser hair removal. Not ever having to think about it again would be nice.
I'm surprised more men don't -- plenty of guys are committedly cleanshaven, and the face is a fairly small area. It seems like a natural hassle-avoidance.
127: One of the most mortifying moments of my life was going to the hospital with contractions a couple days after I'd shaved (with help) (in my 7th month) solely for the sake of hilarious fake-fetish pregnancy photographs as baby shower gifts I swear (no, not involving actual nudity, only revealing outfits). I couldn't stop thinking that here was this doc staring at my naked pubes. Jeezameezus.
130: The mouthful of hair is a feature. You only know you're doing it right if you're still picking them out of your teeth the next morning.
At least... I'm told certain unspecified people feel that way.
but there's a definite attractiveness about someone who doesn't shave; not just pubically, I mean legs, armpits, what-have-you.
I agree, this is a signifier of an attractive attitude. But for me it is trumped by the unattractive appearance if the hair is very dark and contrasts obviously with the skin. Sucks to be a Sicilian, as mentioned earlier.
127: Martha used to do the same thing, until she worked up the courage to ask her doctor about it.
The doctor said she'd seen it all, and the only thing that fazed her anymore was the jewelry.
125: I already noted sampling bias was a problem. And yes, you are.
I guess I just got my back up a bit at the implicit suggestioin that you and all of your friends are doing this for purely conformist reasons. You can't have preferences based on actual utility.
130:I will have to check my ancient notes, but IIRC, if you are getting a mouthful of hair, you may not be performing optimally. Although you could be very talented.
"is a signifier of" s/b "signifies"
sorry everyone for showing off my college-essay-padding skills.
135: Well, admittedly I kind of draw the line at mustaches or pelt-like hair, which okay, totally sexist. But still.
134: Ack, choke, gag.
Plus it interrupts the proceedings if you have to stop to gag and pick hair out of your throat. Not. Sexy.
I'm surprised more men don't -- plenty of guys are committedly cleanshaven
For the same reason that a lot of men who are committedly non-procreative don't get vasectomies. You might not want any more kids/a beard, but it's nice to know you could if you needed to.
128: You mean you can't... hey, man, that's cool. No worries, everybody has different advantages. I'll bet you have a great personality.
137: Hey, who said I was shaving, beyond the legs and pits? I've just been talking about what I understand is the norm among the youf these days.
142: I look forward to getting one or the other of those procedures. The Paradox of Choice means that leaving the option of a beard open forces me to make the decision of whether to shave or not every day, incrementally but consistently increasing my stress level.
141: Okay, well... I see your point. Hair in the throat = bad, hair in the teeth = acceptable. Comity?
T-Shirt Idea: "Shave the Carp." For some reason, the phrase cracks me the fuck up. I'm still laughing, and now people are starting to look at me.
142: that, and playing with sharp things.
142, 150: Yeah, and I suppose the whole symbol of masculinity thing enters into it.
138: Well, mouthful is admittedly a bit of an overstatement. All it really takes is one.
Has anyone mentioned the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" episode relevant to this yet? I can't figure out how to type the "dry-ish version of hacking up phlegm sound" that one would engage in to get ride of said offending hair(s). But that episode will stand in nicely.
148: Sure. See? Yet another advantage straight guys have. I hate you all.
Oh no wait, we were going for comity. Comity all around! Men are all right by me!
DS: keep it Seventies and no mustaches?
"without making yourself look like a prepubescent."
I don't get this. Shaving around mature genitalia doesn't make it look prepubescent at all.
I was under the impression that laser removal, like, hurts. Shaving your face is not comparable to shaving other parts because of the number and sensitivity of nerve endings there and the number and robustness of the hair follicles.
107, 149 -- You people are scaring me. See, I've had this mustache since 1978 -- the kids, hell, the wife, has never seen me without it. And never will!
Hrmm. Given my previous reference to Hustler I'd say that seeing the 'Beaver Shots' section (amateur pictures, often apparently taken in dirty truckstop bathrooms) in the late 70's put me permanently off the au natural thing. Particularly since that went out of fashion immediately thereafter and therefore looked funny. It doesn't symbolize anything to me excepting that you don't shave and might be dirty.
On the other hand, the whole android/Bratney/plastic Barbie look (complete with anorexia, entirely unnatural tan, silicone chest, no eyebrows and lots of base) seems not only strange but also disgustingly prepubescent.
But if a guy grows up with that look as a teenager, I don't doubt that he will imprint on that look and thus it will seem not only entirely normal, but hot. And anything not like that will be gross. The reverse would be true for boomers. I will further bet that the style will come around again to au natural in the next decade in reaction to this decade.
max
['Ok, done being ponderous.']
145: I was inarticulate, sorry. I meant I was getting the impression from comments (not necc. yours) that the only reason people were doing this was conforming to fashion. (Someone else noted there probably isn't only one reason, which I think is true). I noted that many people I know do this but vast majority of them claim it is done for functional more than aesthetic reasons. I disagree with the dismissive claim of some that this is just rationalization.
I also noted that I'd already said my own experience probably has sampling bias, which you were teasing me about, but I don't think that's what you responded to.
Midnight at the Mountains of Madness
WORST MARIA MULDAUR SONG EVER
159: Hah. I've been married a couple of weeks short of ten years (OMG I need an anniversary present) and I've never seen my husband's chin.
156: It doesn't make the genitalia look prepubescent, it makes the person attached to the genetalia look prepubescent.
161: Yeah, and you could be right. I don't think you are -- that is, even if people sincerely believe that shaving is functionally preferable, and even if they're right, that still doesn't mean that a mass recognition of that truth is what led to the fashion change. My guess is that the fashion changed because they do, and then people rationalized. But I haven't got proof, obviously.
It doesn't make the genitalia look prepubescent, it makes the person attached to the genetalia look prepubescent.
In my experience (I'm really asking for it, aren't I?) this really depends on the person. I guess by itself it doesn't but could contribute.
166: If you have a baseline image of pubic hair as a differentiator between children and adults, removing it is going to make the person look more like a child. If your image of a naked adult was formed after shaving became common, you probably won't have this reaction.
142: As much as a beard may be a symbol of masculinity one doesn't want to abandon (or abandon the potential for), I don't think anyone would miss the neck-beard.
from experience: at least some of the women shaving, and some of the men interested in shaved women, are going for a pre-pubescent look implicitly or explicitly. Whether you achieve an exact simulacrum is beside the point; the symbolism is plenty.
169: I'm pretty sure this is part of why it's a big deal in Pr0nland.
I guess my point was if the rest of their appearance doesn't support the idea of `childlike', then it doesn't appear that way (at least to me). Say a man with hair on his chest but not on his genitals, or a woman with substantial breasts, neither of these look childlike to me with completely bare genitalia. Just as examples. I can imagine if someone is already somewhat childlike in appearance this effect could be strong (and creepy).
the fashion change
I'm freaking out a little at hearing the question of whether one shaves one's pubic region referred to as a *fashion* question.
It's not even clear to me how prevalent it is. Is it supposed to be a shift in standards of personal grooming? This is not quite the same as fashion.
But. To the extent that it is prevalent and represents both grooming and fashion, well, wow. The pronification of the personal.
I don't think the claim is that you'll mistake someone for a child.
A shaved crotch gives you something in common with prepubescents.
So does a shaved face. And yet, hairless or not, adult faces and genitalia are easily distinguished from prepubescent ones. This is just a fashion swing. You barely ever see chest hair on television any longer.
I'm pretty sure this is part of why it's a big deal in Pr0nland.
Probably, though I'd have thought it's also more sexdoll type stuff --- hyperreality and all that. Goes along with the platinum blonde hair and the fake boobs.
How bout this:
It looks childlike to those of us who are accustomed to seeing adults with a certain amount of pubic hair.
It doesn't look childlike to those who are accustomed to seeing adults without pubic hair.
(Also, what one consciously thinks isn't the be-all and end-all; it's undeniable that children lack pubic hair and adults have it; therefore, adults shaving (pubes, arms, legs, pits, faces, etc.) demonstrates, at least in part, a cultural preference for a younger appearance.)
I actually suspect that the biggest motivation in pornland is the "show more, show more!" one. The pre-pubescent thing is probably just a lucky bonus effect.
I'm not sure we should get tracked into younger/older. I think parsimon is on to something with the more/less natural, or more/less civilized.
172: It's not even clear to me how prevalent it is. Is it supposed to be a shift in standards of personal grooming? This is not quite the same as fashion.
I don't see the distinction.
This is one of those things where the origin of the fashion, and why people for whom it's mainstream like it, don't have to be connected. I'm pretty sure the hairless genitalia fashion is a porn thing, and within porn I'd bet (and people claiming more knowledge than I have, which isn't much, seem to agree) that it came from porn invoking a prepubescent image. That doesn't mean that wanting to screw 12-year-olds is necessarily at all what someone who likes the look now that it's a mainstream fashion is thinking.
it's undeniable that children lack pubic hair and adults have it
Same with facial hair, though, and nobody freaks out about shaving that.
My guess is that all you kids just never wash or shower or wipe or whatever. It is true that we cousin it types require more attention.
That doesn't mean that wanting to screw 12-year-olds is necessarily at all what someone who likes the look now that it's a mainstream fashion is thinking.
But it doesn't mean it's not, either. You perverts.
another thought: what about correlation between shaving and piercings for some? Barring fairly purely functional piercings, what's the point if nobody can see them?
179, 182:I think B is more right than LB about the porn industry.
I am trying to remember when shaved became common in porn. After mid-80s, I think, like 5 years of Reagan.
174, 178: Thank you. Jesus, I wasn't saying, shave the pubes and all of a sudden you can't tell if it's a kid or an adult anymore.
What would be a "purely functional piercing"?
125 is Lizard Breath going for the kill. It's a little glimpse of the lawyer inside.
186: Genital piercings are sensation-driven, but it doesn't follow that any incidentally correlated shaving is the same. As to who's going to see it: your partner(s), right?
Someone who's at a home computer should google "history hair removal porn" and see if they can come up with any sort of timeline.
Come to think of it, that'd probably just get you pictures of someone dressed up as Marie Antionette naked and waxing herself. Never mind.
188: Yes you were, Cerebrocrat. Everyone knows that gay = pedophile.
I dated a hairy-legged girl once. It was fine, except when she wore short skirts or very femmy stuff. Totally unattractive. Oddly, shorts were fine.
Interestingly, she shaved her pits; she told me that the leg thing was half political, half laziness, but the pit hair removal was from genuine revulsion at how she looked with it.
The bush, of course, was massive and untamed. It made oral waaaay too flossy to be pleasant.
Whenever Apo drops his pants, Roberta says "Noah?"
That was probably over the line. My apologies.
196 gets it right.
Also it reveals that you must have spent at least some time speculating over whether apo's other son has pubic hair or not, and concluded that he probably does.
I think parsimon is on to something with the more/less natural, or more/less civilized.
I think G-rill is closer to the same truth: it's also more sexdoll type stuff --- hyperreality and all that. (Actually, looking at your description of it, I'm not sure parsimon isn't arguing directly contra this.) Shaved pudenda might--perhaps like fake breasts, etc.--signify a willingness to go a certain distance to satisfy the sexual desires of one's partner. Obv., there's a distance along this axis that's good/not bad. Where shaved pudenda falls, I don't know.
189: some are really all about stimulation (e.g. some hood/clit or glans piercings)
186: I meant if they were decorative but you couldn't really see them, you'd probably trim/shave until you could. It was just a thought though, and I doubt has much effect on more mainstream practice, even if it is correlated.
198 yes. The opposite of "natural" isn't "civilized"; it's "artificial."
apo's other son
Has a different mother, I think was the point.
How is this thread so on track at 200 comments??
198: Yeah, I would guess that some of the spread of the fashion is accounted for by a desire to look attentive to what a potential partner would want, like wearing makeup. It almost doesn't matter what specifically the signal is, the point is to display to a partner "I am concerned enough with your desires to preemptively do something I think you'd like."
Someone who's at a home computer should google "history hair removal porn" and see if they can come up with any sort of timeline.
No such luck yet, but are you familiar with the terms "Acomoclitism" and "Glabrousness" (aka "culturally-motivated depilation")?
I haven't shaved my face completely since the night of my first date with my wife, in October 1980, when she expressed a preference for a bearded look. My kids have never seen me without a beard.
Lots of people our age shaved always. (Shaved pubes were rare then but not unheard of). Lots of young people are very hairy now. The balance, among the class—grad students, knowledge workers—we represent has shifted but not so much it seems to me as some people are claiming.
I honestly think it's a personal matter without much larger meaning, and how often do you find me saying that?
I have to agree with Bob on this subject. Based on second-hand accounts of the seventies, one big difference between then and now is that there was a collective dim awareness that culture was not a neutral process, but something that acted upon you. This awareness seems to have been extinguished.
194:
The bush, of course, was massive and untamed. It made oral waaaay too flossy to be pleasant.
What you do in that case (if it's bothering you) is ask sometime: honey, how do you feel about me trimming you down here some evening? I promise great things!
How is this thread so on track at 200 comments??
Because it started as another thread going off track so it was already off to start?
202: 'Cause you are doing a shitty job disrupting it, heebie. Take some responsibility.
it's undeniable that children lack pubic hair and adults have it
Same with facial hair, though, and nobody freaks out about shaving that.
Dude. Lots of young men make it into their college years, well into sexual maturity, without shaving. If you're an old hairy guy, shaving your beard makes you look younger without making you look prepubescent. Fairly few people reach sexual maturity without growing some pubic hair. I'm not saying that people turn into toddlers when they shave, or that without pubic hair I can't tell if I'm looking at pre vs. post pubescent genitals; rather, that among the various hairy signifiers of youthfullness, absence of pubic hair is really the only one that prepubescents and postpubescent-but-young people rarely share, and therefore, deliberately removing that hair is a somewhat more extreme act of hair removal for the sake of sexual attractiveness than the others.
I hate hate hate HATE dealing with my leg hair. It is dark and coarse and grows very fast; meanwhile, my skin is milk-pale, thin, and sensitive. It's very easy for me to get razor burn and ingrown hairs, the hair is apparently too firmly rooted for waxing to be anything like an unqualified success, and I even did a course of laser hair removal, which hurt and was expensive, and did not remotely put things at a state where I can skip shaving. It's a royal pain and makes me feel (in this one way) fundamentally hideous and somewhat unclean. Yay!
207: the one time I mentioned it, I got the "wtf preadolescent girl" spiel. Sensitive subject, apparently; I guess it wasn't the first time she'd been asked to trim, and didn't see a middle-ground that involved just a trim.
(Trim! Ha! A friend of mine used to refer to promiscuous men he knew as getting "more trim than a barber's son.")
212: Yeah, suggesting that people alter their genital region can be kind of touchy. Go figure.
Speaking as a 30 year old whose sexual conquests are absolutely not widespread enough to form a statistically significant sample, my experience is completely shaven or nearly-completely-shaven is not particularly common in the Bay Area among women in their late 20's, early 30's.
212: FWIW, it does seem like there's a world of difference between trimming and shaving, even to anti-shaving types like me.
212: like no stubble for starters.
This not-in-the-least-bit-scholarly article proffers the plausible theory, also on offer up-thread, that depilatory habits correlate closely with the level of acceptable body exposure. The coincidental emergence of thong-style underwear and the Brazilian wax in the 5-10 years ago time frame is striking.
that should have been 216 to 215
213: definitely. I'd be much more tactful about it now; I was only 21 or 22 then and probably didn't phrase the suggestion (to thin things out a bit) terribly well.
Yeah. This strikes me as mostly not a big deal at all, other than on a "Huh, funny" level, but that trimming would have really almost no cultural significance, while complete shaving would have some.
212: In any lasting, important relationship, you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth.
Hair is freedom. Let my fucking freak flag fly.
It's not often I understand enough of bob's ramblings to agree, but in this case: absofuckinglutely.
I, too, am surprised to find myself in comity with McManus, but there it is. I sometimes shave my pits and legs, sometimes don't. I can't imagine taking a razor anywhere else, and I think Brazilians and complete shaving are tres unattractive, but whatever. Bottom line is everyone should do what they damn well please. (Yeah, yeah, I know, social conventions, etc. But to the extent one can resist such pressures.)
Does everyone know about the unbelievable practice of "cosmetic" surgery on one's labia because they're too big or not shaped right or other ridiculous nonsense? Internalized misogyny fucking sucks.
Also, you Euro-types? My sense is that the non-shaving that once prevailed has ebbed. True?
L & D nurse, Upper East Side, Manhattan.
Wealthy white women in their late 30's and older seem to be pretty natural, maybe a little off the sides. Younger women are likely to take it all off, or leave just a landing strip.
Hispanic women seem to have waxed everything. I used to live in Washington Heights (Dominican), and full legs plus a Brazilian was around $50.
I cannot recall seeing an Asian or black woman who appeared to have altered what what given to them.
200, 198, 180, 56:
198 yes. The opposite of "natural" isn't "civilized"; it's "artificial."
It wouldn't be quite that clear-cut, but sure: my 56 suggested that the nearly mandatatory shaving of women's hair is in support of an artificial state in which the female sex is a proxy of sorts for civilization, which is the staving off of the fearful demons of the night.
Right?
223: That's interesting. At the risk of getting more shit about all this: I've seen both, but the women in question had very mixed ethnicity social groups --- dunno how much difference that makes. They'd be early 30s now, I guess.
The opposite of "natural" isn't "civilized"; it's "artificial."
Perhaps we could now have a thread that's actually interesting.
Or you lot can run this one to a thousand if you want. But I'm still not going to wax my ass.
224: I just wasn't clear--given ogged's description of your categories--whether "more civilized" (less hair) paired with "less natural" (less hair). His sentence structure was the spanner in the works.
Here's a slightly better sourced look at the history.
All of this reminds me of a classic moment from my childhood when, while the family was sitting down to dinner, my brother (aged approx. 6) cheerfully told a joke he did not understand, the punchline to which was (sung) "It's a long way to tip her hairy." The appalling silence that followed might be continuing still, had the phone not rung. Good times.
My dogs won't lick my face. Or arms or legs. They go for my nose or lips (I French my dogs) or the top of my feet or whatever other tiny little areas of my body aren't hirsute.
It really hurts sometimes, and this is really personal, but I felt the thread could benefit from a wider sample set.
The sad part is that a generation may grow up not understanding what is meant by the phrase "bearded clam".
Well, that's the last time I share my secret shames with you!
Probably not really.
It does sound like a bummer. I'm pale and darkhaired, but shaving's never been that much of a problem, other than the hassle factor. Did the laser treatment help at all?
224: It has ever been thus. Woman = artifice. Certainly femininity is an artificial (and "civilized") construct, read backwards as "natural" through stories about the veldt by sexists ever since the dawn of time.
234: Nuh-uh, women on the veldt shaved and waxed and had boob jobs. I know this to be true because otherwise men wouldn't have sex with them. Or, uh, something.
So, apropos of nothing beyond a vague spirit of this thread of oversharing, I think that armpit hair is kind of gross. Everyone's armpit hair. So, for a while, I shaved mine. I go to the gym with a female friend, and at that time I was wearing tank tops (do you call 'em tank tops when guys wear 'em? Whatever, you know what I'm talking about) to the gym. Her emphatic opinion was that it was weird, that guys shouldn't shave their pits, that it looked in some way unmanly.
But women are also identified with nature. But I really don't want to discuss this.
234: this does not explain why men would shave. And surely is not all contemporary sexuality an artifice?
Ooo, I like it. On the veldt, women weren't on the veldt, but elsewhere, being civilized. (This also explains a pet peeve -- EvoPsych explanations of why some alleged difference exists between the sexes arguing that men needed to evade predators.)
In any lasting, important relationship
Consumer culture does not especially encourage these natural associations; you might find yourself wearing the same clothing year in and year out while being thankful that your partner is not yet bald. Better to revel in artifice, and allow today's desires to erase the memory of yesterday's.
233: It did, yeah -- I can shave in the morning and look perfectly fine, if not utterly smooth and hairless, in a skirt that day. Bikini line is still utterly hopeless, but oh well. It just makes me sensitive when the conversation turns to how revolted people are by visible leg hair. It boggles my mind that hair removal is so apparently trivial for so many.
do you call 'em tank tops when guys wear 'em?
I think the manly word is a 'singlet'. No, sorry, that's the 1930s word.
"Pronland" makes me think of that old Borges story, "Pron, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius".
Orbis Tuckus?
do you call 'em tank tops when guys wear 'em?
"Wife-beaters."
Actually, I think the manly and totally nonsensical term is "sleeveless t."
women are also identified with nature
Yes, but usually in ways that naturalize (artificial) feminine assets. Think of the description of Eve in PL, for example. Mother Earth and the whole birth = nature thing is, I think, the single instance in which the woman/nature association isn't about culturally constructed ideas of femininity, but then you've got either the "must tame savage nature" thing or else the "nature left alone is sweet and pleasant and safe" meme--not to mention that, nowadays, we see birth as such an artificial process that people seriously argue that one "shouldn't get pregnant" and think of birth as a medicalized process.
That was probably over the line. My apologies.
Oh please. You'll have to try harder than that. Anyhow, the point isn't that shaved is better than unshaved or vice versa; the point is that you should mix it up. Variety is important in monogamy.
I've had various parts of my body--parts of my chest, a stripe down my leg--shaved for various medical stuff. I'm always amazed by how long it takes to grow back (several months). But that's back to the very masculine length I'm used to, not just to where it shows.
Variety is important in monogamy.
Whereas in nonmonogamy, we strive for sameness.
I commend you all on your observance of the Fitrah.
Oh please. You'll have to try harder than that.
I didn't think you'd mind.
247: Oh, absolutely. I'll skip shaving for weeks sometimes, and that's still stubble, not fullon hairy legs. Going from shaved to grown all the way out is like three or four months.
And I should add that holy crap did my chest itch while that hair grew back.
Going from shaved to long-enough-to-wax is miserable for me. And then I remember the ingrown hairs...
Yeah. I do wonder how regular pubic shavers manage the itch factor -- do it daily?
Strangely, it itches around the old-fashioned bikini line--where the front of the crotch joins the legs--way more than down below, where I for one have never noticed itch.
I've tried waxing my legs in the past, and just can't manage the combination of the hassle, and the required hairlength before you can do it again -- I kept it up once (not too long ago) for six months or so, but for most of that time my legs were pretty hairy.
I like chest hair. On men, not on me.
I shaved my chest for drag once. Big mistake.
I've never really had strong opinions about it, one way or the other. Depending on the individual hairy can look good or bad, as can mostly hairless.
Maybe Will can tell us what he does about the itch.
Wait, just how long must hair be for it to be waxable?
Wait, just how long must hair be for it to be waxable?
How many roads must a wise man walk?
1/2", maybe? I can't quite remember. But long enough to be quite visible.
There's a picture from a CD someone had in college (so pre-1994) that showed a close-up of the top of a woman's jeans, unbuttoned, with a small display of pubic hair. Breeders? PJ Harvey? certainly not the cover, if so. Anyway, it burned itself into my late-adolescent brain as unspeakably sexy.
There's that delightful Black Crowes http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=black+crowes+pubic&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi you might be referring to.
Wasn't that the Black Crows I think?
I've never had hair growing back in itch anywhere, but then I can wear wool sweaters without shirt and it doen't bother me either. One time I shaved my pits, though, and that frickin' hurt growing back in. All stabby-like.
was wearing tank tops (do you call 'em tank tops when guys wear 'em? Whatever, you know what I'm talking about)
I always thought they were so named because guys wore them in tanks, which are hot.
Woman = artifice. Certainly femininity is an artificial (and "civilized") construct,
All human culture is. Men and masculinity, just as artificial. Although artificial does not equal subject to free choice, as artifice takes place in response to natural constraints, it is in our cultural nature that our past communal choices greatly constrain us, etc.
I shaved my neck once, and that itched. Do people still use after-shave? It had a practical purpose, beside smelling nice.
I like chest hair. On men, not on me.
I am given to understand that a few stray hairs around the nipples (which is about all the chest hair I and a lot of guys have) are not uncommon among the fairer sex, but ruthless tweezing appears to be the norm.
If you do a google image search for male model, you have to go many, many pages deep before you'll find a single hair on a torso.
That apo, always ready to do his part for Science.
Or a face or an arm, for that matter.
192: There actually was an entire journal of 18th-Century Studies committed to hair, with several articles on fads for pubic hair and pubic depilation. Fabulous stuff.
If you do a google image search for male model, you have to go many, many pages deep before you'll find a single hair on a torso.
There. Fixed that for you.
265: Ew, no. Black-and-white, and jeans. Also, at an angle, not all pudenda-in-your-face.
Amy Poehler is on point here.
And lastly, ladies, what's up with all the deforestation going on down there? You need hair down there! It's a backup system for underwear! Even when you're showin' it, you're not really showin' it! There was a time when a lady garden was as big as a slice of New York pizza. Then, it turned into an upside down John Waters mustache. Now, every girl is as smooth as Joey Lawrence's head! Global warming? You decide. But remember, I always believe a woman's nethers should be shrouded in mystery.
18th-Century Studies committed to hair
Wasn't in common for hookers to shave (lice problems)?
Do you have a cite?
236, 245:
But women are also identified with nature.
We all know this stuff, don't we? Women are at one and same time identified with the pristine and the animal, the angelic and the dark, virgin/whore. Etc. There's a very long, powerful tradition informing all of this.
And hair stands for the dark. This isn't merely symbolic; we have young women in our midst wringing their hands on a regular basis over their body hair.
People have also pointed out here and there in this thread that hair, or hairiness, seems dirty. I think I knew about that aspect, but had forgotten.
If there's anything signally wrong about it all, it's the insistence on the virgin/clean/hairless/angelic portion of the dichotomy for females. Not only is it far, far too much to ask of human beings, it's societally ill.
And I'd like to say, for the record, that I like bodies that look comfortable and happy. I know this sounds really lame and hippyish, but I actually don't have an opinion about chest hair or not---they both look great to me---or about whether a body is in perfect shape all the time or not---you can tell by looking at someone if they're happy and healthy at the size they are. And nearly every guy I've dated has had some elaborate thought process about body hair or losing ten pounds or getting muscly or something, and I have zero idea why. Who actually, really, gives a shit? Honestly?
It's one thing to talk about, in a photo, what you'd stare at, and what, in a lover, you'd find sexually attractive. I think it's normal to want someone who seems healthy and otherwise good-looking in ways that hit your kinks, but asking for weird things like full-body waxing is about wanting your partner to look expensive, not about wanting to feel more sexual desire.
I asked a girl, why the Brazilian? She mentioned that it made her feel clean. I wept for the youth of America.
Hmm, backup system for underwear. I have noticed that when I've gone more bare than usual, lace panties can get uncomfortable. The holes in the lace press against the skin with no buffer.
281: Addendum, I know, there are "sexual" reasons for wanting to have a Brazilian, and I've done it for those reasons. But variety is teh spice, as they say. Keeping it bare all the time is boring.
281: And nearly every guy I've dated has had some elaborate thought process about body hair or losing ten pounds or getting muscly or something, and I have zero idea why. Who actually, really, gives a shit? Honestly?
Chicks. Chicks give a shit. Honestly.
When I weigh 170-180 lbs and go out dancing, women hit on me. When I weigh 200 lbs and go out dancing, they don't.
Being from a hot climate, I finally gigged that sweating all day and not shaving/trimming the pits resulted in bad smell when I started sweating again, regardless of the amount of bathing I did. The hair would become totally saturated with sweat and couldn't be gotten out.. So I started shaving/trimming 'em and no itch. This is also more comfortable in the heat. Deal with the crotch the same way for similar reasons. It itches for two days and stops. Shaving every day makes it worse.
I knew a girl (Polish) who tended to terrible ingrown hairs so she trimmed her legs most of the time, and that looked fine. There is a point where female legs with hair stop being 'female' and start being 'ogged', but that's fairly hairy.
From experimentation on the same woman, I found that a shaved puedenda was tastier and easier to manipulate with my tongue and therefore more fun.
The rest of the shaving/waxing/whatever doesn't make much sense to me, unless someone is really hairy. Particularly since I am particularly fond of the fine hairs between a woman's breasts and on the small of the back.
Also, while wandering past the TV, I noticed a talking heads story (complete with scary graphics!) on the CBS Nightly News about how the Syrians are trying to acquire a nuclear weapon; apparently 'administration officials' say they think the North Koreans are going to provide them with the tech. Therefore I presume they think the NKs a going to fedex a reactor to Syria. Nicely implied was the fact that the Syrians are supposedly seeking said weapon as an equalizer; meaning the administration mouthpieces can totally understand why the Syrians would want to protect themselves from various hyperaggressive powers such as the US.
max
['They feel their pain.']
279: ECS, Vol 38 No 1, Fall 2004.
Wasn't in common for hookers to shave (lice problems)
The Merkin (pretty-much SFW; one image of a merkin in-action)
286: Do you look healthy at 200 lbs? Some people do and some don't.
290: Yup, I do. I'm 6' tall with a reasonably normal frame. At 200 lbs, I look like a relatively average guy who's carrying around a few extra pounds. At 180 lbs, I look like a relatively average guy who's maybe a little more in shape than most.
I mean, I totally believe you when you say that it doesn't matter to you, and hey, maybe it doesn't matter to most women -- but at the margin, my anecdotal experience is that it's a big deal.
290, cont'd: And, of course, some people are shallow. But this, I have held and will continue to hold, is rarely because of problems feeling actual sexual attraction. I think there is an element to wanting to have a social hard-on for someone as well as a sexual one, and, depending on one's social set, the shallowness factor can be intense.
Related: has the hoary comic trope about cunnilingus being gross up and died? Growing up, I got the message loud and clear that vaginas were way too smelly and gross to actually put your mouth near, and bravely resisted. It seems brave resistance is no longer necessary -- or am I a Pollyanna here?
And then I remember the ingrown hairs...
Several months ago I had my back waxed for the first, and almost surely the last time. The ingrown hair horror show was nothing short of spectacular, and long-lasting too.
293: I think, nowadays, a resistance to giving head in a man is taken for a sign that he might be gay. It used to be the sign of misogynistic heteroawesomeness, but those people are dying out, I think.
292: I don't think you can generalize that too broadly. The social stuff is certainly non-trivial, but it's also not uncommon to be particularly attracted to a particular body type for reasons other than wanting to show off your hot SO.
has the hoary comic trope about cunnilingus being gross up and died?
the comics I hear these days seem to make a point of how much they dig it, or at least, that they do it because their chick digs it. I haven't yet been sold on the concept, but then I don't really like standup comedy that much.
else the "nature left alone is sweet and pleasant and safe" meme
On the veldt, everyone looked like a chimpanzee.
Actually, I remember reading an SF story from the 50's where the idea was that some disease had broken out, causing all humans to grow a pelt approximately one inch thick. Panic shaving ensues but everyone eventually gives up, first on temporary fixes and then on a cure. Story ends with the newest hot female singer being a woman with an all-blonde pelt, since people eventually had got used to the change, and didn't want to change back. (Non-hairy people became the freaks and had to hide themselves from view.)
max
['Not even slightly relevant.']
It could be argued that 295 constitutes pwnage.
280: For almost all of those general impressions, theres an equal and opposite stereotype floating around too.
299: So you're heteroawesomely misogynistic? Tsk.
AWB, you may be right that, ultimately, the same number of women are in some abstract way attracted to me regardless of where on the spectrum of my adult weights I've been (and, to repeat myself, it's a pretty ordinary spectrum).
But in the world that's observable to me, the difference is a big one between the in-shape and out-of-shape ends of my spectrum. And I, in turn, enjoy the more obvious attention. So, you asked, why do guys care about getting more muscley or losing ten pounds? My answer is, it makes a difference in terms of the observable feedback we get from the objects of our desire.
295:I read from bottom up, and at first glance I read that "resistance to giving head to a man is taken for a sign you might be gay." And for a second, I even thought about whether it might be an accurate assessment.
causing all humans to grow a pelt
Yeah, this thread is becoming the alt.waxing.ingrown-hairs.but-why usenet group.
All should do as they wish, just don't tell any of the rest of us if you think we're freaks if we don't hide our hairy legs from you. And don't stare. It is all very simple.
301: I know THAT's right, sister. Some chick thinks she needs me to go down there, maybe what she really needs is the back of my hand!
(I love the word "heteroawesome")
302: I guess what felt weird to me was the kind of situation in which a boyfriend becomes obsessed with getting all buff and shit for me, as if I give a damn. A guy I was going out with a while back got kind of fixated on it, even as we came to realize that he was the kind of person who wanted sex barely once a week, and I wanted it, well, more than that.
"Why do you want to get all buff and shit?" I asked.
"So you'll be really totally crazy-attracted to me," he said.
"(a) That's ridiculous; I'd probably not notice beyond whether you seemed happier, and (b) are you honestly trying to get more sex out of me? Because, as it is, I'm obviously too attracted to you. If you have your own reasons, go ahead, but don't drag me or my libido into this."
What I'm starting to realize is that there's some other kind of attraction that most people mean when they think about attraction, something having to do with, like, something other than sex as an end, but still based on looks and visible status.
I agree, that sounds weird and obviously counterproductive.
Comity?
Awesome. That's my first ever Unfogged "comity" remark!
Might be mine, too! Something special has happened tonight. I hope we did it right.
there's some other kind of attraction that most some people mean when they think about attraction
Really, I wouldn't generalize too widely about that.
298: Isn't the punchline one of the characters making a killing by investing in the stock of a currycomb maker?
Sir K above mentions the new porno trend of having cosmetic surgery to trim yr labia. Isn't this another way of making a woman's genitals look prepubescent? Labia grow a little in puberty no?
I'd be willing to believe that the trend towards shaving pubic hair is not a form of infantalization, if it were an isolated fashion. But its not.
Labia grow a little in puberty no?
Not that I know of.
I think I've read that the inner labia can become longer/looser with childbirth. Which makes sense. And no, I do not have comparative measurements to offer.
293: The key is to be more like Doctor Diablo.
Hmm, well, I don't actually have personal experience or scientific data to go on. But puberty does effect a boy's scrotal sac, so I assume there would be a parallel effect.
Maybe I never went through that kind of puberty, RHC, but I've never noticed nor ever heard of a labial change in puberty. Lots of weird stuff starts happening on the inside, but not much on the outside down there.
This is one of those things where you'd really need a OB-GYN or a textbook. It's not as if girls see their own labia on a regular basis as they go through puberty. I should expect that there's probably a reasonably regular pattern of changes between 11 and 20, and an increase in the size of labia would make sense offhand, but I really have no idea.
Maybe I should revise my thesis. There are three trends that started in porn but are spreading elsewhere that I have read about that are clearly related: shaving pubic hair, trimming labia, and bleaching assholes.
The general trend is controlling, minimizing, and homogenizing. Something is wrong here.
It's not as if girls see their own labia on a regular basis as they go through puberty.
Sigh.
There are three trends that started in porn but are spreading elsewhere that I have read about that are clearly related: shaving pubic hair, trimming labia, and bleaching assholes.
Ah, but there's a fourth trend that is also related: breast augmentation.
Something special has happened tonight. I hope we did it right.
As long as you both had fun.
320: How does genital piercing fit your theory?
320: How does genital piercing fit your theory?
It makes them easier to collate and file.
Everyone else was down there with a hand mirror daily? Possibly I was just unusually uncurious.
320: But this is all about pornographic photos and video. They're representations of sex you're not actually having. Honestly, the thing that bothers me isn't porn, but people who can't tell the difference between mediated experience (porn) and experience. Some people can't tell the difference between TV shows they watched and stuff they've actually done. These are people who don't get that there's stuff represented in porn that you don't actually need (or have the right to demand) IRL to get off. Sex, for some people, is less about getting off than it is about "watching" themselves in something they could imagine in a porn film, getting off on the media-ready aspect of sex.
I've been struck by this realization a few times in bed, and it's really shocking. I didn't like it much, as it took me out of the moment and made me think from the perspective of an imaginary camera six feet away, but I can see how it happens.
I know it sells a lot of ads in alternative newsweeklies, but I don't believe that labioplasty has really taken off.
That is, there are a lot of norms in porn that are not inherently attractive IRL, but, in order to recreate the filmability of sex, one might re-enact stilted dialogue with a woman in bright sparkly jewelry, caked-on makeup and slippers with heels, require everyone to have zero body fat and no body hair, fake tits on her and a giant drugged-up cock on him.
318,319:Umm, researching this question led me to the Websites of Labioplasty surgeons, some with before & after pictures. Do we want a link?
My impression from the reading is that changes in labia minora due to puberty can happen to individuals, but are not common or predictable.
bleaching assholes
?!
For fuck's... what? Really?!
How white is *your* asshole, Cerebrocrat?
WHITE?!
I think there's something I'm not understanding here.
I strongly believe that the United States of America has been blessed by God with an ample sufficiency of white assholes. There is no need for chemical intervention to create more.
An ivory asshole is what you need to make it in the world today, Cerebrocrat. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Alabaster sphincter, white as pearls.
331:I should correct 331. There may be changes at puberty, I don't know, but between menarche and full maturity any changes are individual, and not usual.
337: Just checking, but is that statement coming from surgeons selling labioplasty? Because that seems like an unreliable source.
I should have studied those damn OB-Gyn books when I was ten, because if 337 is true, Balthus is even more evil than I thought he was.
I actually can't tell if I'm being put on here, but if people are actually out there bleaching their assholes white, then I'm never going to complain about how weird pube shaving is again. In fact, I see no point in complaining about anything ever again.
Not white, cerebrocrat. Just, uh, less brown. I think the idea is to convince asshole-oglers that your shit is, if not totally odor free, at least perfectly translucent.
Cerebrocrat, I was going to make a joke about how you should never let your asshole get dingier than your teeth, but Tweety beat me. It's bleached less brown, not actually white.
340 - They are, but it's very rare. The scary thing is that those bleaching creams they're using on their assholes are the same ones that have been shown to cause mercury poisoning and scarring and terrible side effects when used by people to lighten the skin on their faces.
I beat you because I love you, AWB.
Oh, God, I was terrified for a moment that I'd just clicked on a link to scarred assholes, when I noticed that comment was by Becks, not apo. (brow swipe)
Now get that asshole pretty for daddy.
338:Why unreliable? They are responsible and liable, and are willing to perform surgery on a 15 yr old with confidence that she will not be dissatisfied at 20, that is, that natural change will not affect the appearance.
Before & After NSFW
There is an FAQ on the page. There can be labioplasties I would not consider frivolous.
No obvious scarring, but you can see the range of skin tones.
I cannot comment on butt bleaching.
But, I have shave all of the hair off my body, except eye brows and pubes.
It itched a little coming back, but nothing terrible.
I get hot easily. I'll admit to trimming my chest hair bc it feels better that way when I work out.
I cannot comment on butt bleaching.
Will can neither confirm nor deny rumors he's bleached his asshole until it shines.
Also, speaking of gay men and hair removal, I remember seeing the movie Jeffrey in college and gasping at the phone sex scene when he's asked if he likes it when guys wax their assholes. What a shocking idea! And now that level of hair removal would warrant a shrug.
Oh, like any kind of plastic surgery, there are probably circumstances under which it's reasonable or necessary. No, what I was thinking is that a surgeon selling purely cosmetic labioplasty has an incentive to pathologize normal variation, and characterizing change over time as individual and unusual seems like pathologization.
Sir K above mentions the new porno trend of having cosmetic surgery to trim yr labia
I think I have mentioned knowing someone who had this surgery done.
People want to look like everyone else. If they think they are abnormal, they get upset.
This is part of what is happening with pubes and labias. People talk. What 20 something wants to be known as Ms. Wild Bush!?!??! All of her friends are talking about it, so she does it too.
What 20 something wants to be known as Ms. Wild Bush!?!??!
Jenna?
I should have linked to this page instead, but they came up separately on search and I didn't realize they were the same site. The Doctor looks reputable to me.
I don't much care about what people do or with to their own bodies. Other people, much more social than me, and so placing higher value on the approval of peers and strangers, do many things I consider strange, like shaving their faces and wearing socks.
an imaginary camera six feet away
You hope.
I wonder how sports related this gets. By which I of course mean, do baseball fans prefer a clear distinction between infield and outfield? Do tennis players have preferences between grass and clay courts? Do golfers worry about landing in the rough?
(Sorry, just amusing myself here. Carry on.)
amusing myself here
Fun is banned.
I've heard that Chicago girls prefer to play in the rough.
Oh God, today I got the most awkward come-on from a guy at the C/o/o/p. We were working together, and he keeps standing too close to me, before introducing himself, holding his hand two inches from his body to be shaken by me. (Ever notice that when a man shakes hands with a man, he holds his hand like two feet away from his body?) Then he says, "I'm not, like, married... ... to this music I've put on. If you've got something else you'd like to listen to."
I thought it was all very weird, and just decided to concentrate on my work, until he started talking half an hour later to inform me that, actually, he was married. I kept wondering if I have a sign on my back saying "Please act totally weird to me! Don't hold normal conversations or anything!"
"...incentive to pathologize normal variation"
Point.
I would prefer that people were incentivized to as much individuation in appearance as scientifically possible, tentacles cool, ram horns, blue stripes whatever, but I ain't in charge. From my perspective, a certain desire for conformity in appearance doesn't need pressure from surgeons. Way too many fucking Gwyneths out there.
I have always been fascinated by the wild variations in men's facial hair in the 2nd half of the 19th century .
uhhh AWB, is this a bad time to mention....oh, never mind.
It would make various anecdotes more comprehensible if it turned out that AWB has "Talk Weird To Me" tattooed across her forehead.
Poise and deportment. She possesses neither.
1) The visible thong is Tom Ford's fault. It was a huge hit in about 1995 or so when he was designing for Gucci. It started as a jeweled strap peeking out over low-cut, shiny or leather pants. For many fashion critics, that collection marked the beginning of the new glamor that was fashion's version of the dot-com go-go market.
2) If I could just shave my ankles, I'd do it. The rest of my leg hair really doesn't bother me, but my ankle hair comes in coarse and black. Yuck.
3) I slept with a guy who shaved all of his pubic hair once. Nice enough guy (there were other problems), but the naked genitalia was for me a truly nasty surprise.
Okay, now to read the rest of the thread.
I'm delurking to tell you lovely people that in French the term for the pubic waxing effect known here as "landing strip" is "un ticket de métro." And what's called a Brazilian here is sometimes called an American there (the French Brazilian leaves un ticket de métro, in fact).
The nice thing about teaching in foreign languages is that somehow finding out this kind of crap counts as work.
Figures that this is the only Unfogged thread that is still on topic after 350+ comments. Good on ya'!
(the French Brazilian leaves un ticket de métro, in fact)
I always thought that was what a Brazilian was.
Doesn't much matter to me, though. I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy. Upside-down Vanilla Ice fade, every time.
364, 365: I know this was sort of Alameida's idea first, but I bet a bunch of us would chip in if you were willing to actually get that tattoo. I'm thinking a bold, stylized "Unfogged" with "Talk Weird to Me" in a just slightly smaller font underneath. Think about it.
Forehead tattoos are the new labioplasty.
360: I suppose that's why they made me move to Stepford.
371: Yes, I'm not clear on the difference. But the everything-off model is clearly labeled by the French as "an American."
I'd be surprised if I haven't linked this here before, but it's on-topic, though not safe for work.
371: Yeah, I thought a "Brazilian" leaves a "landing strip". Completely bare is called a "Sphinx", or a "Hollywood".
Wait, apo has to say things are NSFW now? Has the world gone mad?
I'll chip in for the tattoo.
Related, I knew a guy with a "LSD" tattoo across his forehead. For some reason, the cops always hassled him. He soon regretted it.
certainly, someone will get an Unfogged tattoo in at least 30 pt font?
Highly visible tats are an excellent way for people to be able to describe you to the police. If you really want to get away with stuff, just blend in with the crowd.
I think the unfoggedbot is dead. Last comment it displayed was 368.
Gswift:
I had to listen to a BYU law professor speak today. He was HORRIBLE Simply atrocious.
376 is completely wonderful. I'm 80% sure it's a put-on, though.
I had to listen to a BYU law professor speak today. He was HORRIBLE Simply atrocious.
Hee hee. A ridiculously high percentage of their faculty are alumni. Lots of seriously screwy people.
384: It is no exaggeration to state that the classic culture of Pron comprises only one discipline: pornography. All others are subordinated to it. I have said that the men of this planet conceive the universe as a series of sexual processes which do not develop in time but successively in butts. Spinoza ascribes to his inexhaustible divinity the attributes of extension and thrust; no one in Pron would understand the juxtaposition of the first (which is typical only of certain states) and the second - which is a perfect synonym of the cosmos. In other words, they do not conceive that the sexual persists in time. The perception of an ocean on the horizon and then of the burning sensation and then of the half-extinguished lust that produced the blaze is considered an example of fornication of ideas.
I love reading Borges. I wish I could read it in the original.
s/b: The perception of an ocean of jizz on the horizon
Oops. Borges is rolling in his underground zombie orgy pad over that one.
I'll go ahead and ask: is the impression I get from this thread that basically everyone watches a fair amount of porn correct?
I should attempt to qualify: not everyone. But I've been a little surprised by people's apparent familiarity with developments in porn film standards or whatever.
The perception of an ocean of jizz on the horizon
A Borgasm!
Nah, I talk about it with assumed familiarity from mentions in non-porn media. I've seen filmed porn maybe three times in my life.
First of all, there's no way I'm clicking on any link in this thread.
340, 352: I want to say thank you for answering my question, but in this case, I hate you (and everyone else) for answering my question. I was so much happier living in a world without bleached assholes. And wait, *were* we talking about gay men and hair removal? I thought this conversation was mostly about shaved cootchies. I might have payed closer attention...
361: you really have to expect this sort of thing if you're going to work at a c/o/o/p. And knowing that you work at that particular one inspires an unusual mixture of amusement & envy (they're supposed to have really awesome produce; is it true?)
I'm in about the same boat as 392. One doesn't have to watch porn to get that feeling, so brilliantly recreated in the movie of American Psycho, where Patrick Bateman sees himself in the mirror while having sex with two women and starts flexing and making faces at himself. I don't have to be a connoisseur of pornography to get what's happening there.
393b: I think you've had some c/o/o/p produce, and recently, too. The selection's amazing, but the best part is that it's all very local and flavorful, like eating ten tomatoes in a bite. I just had the best mango of my life, and it was like 60 cents.
Borges. I wish I could read it in the original.
You know, it's difficult for me to imagine how it would be different; the style of the translated English is so married to my impression of Borges. Didn't he sometimes write in English? I'm pretty sure he was fluent, right?
Of course, I say this as one of the distinctly non-English-majors here.
A couple of years old now, but the Unfogged porn poll.
I read Borges in Spanish. You're not missing a whole lot; his Spanish is very analytical, not poetic in sounds or imagery, particularly. That is, his Spanish is also not very hard to read; if you've got a dictionary, you won't miss much in the way of wordplay.
String bikinis preceded thong panties. Kids talked about them in my son's HS (specifically, the cute, flirty Christian girl with the chastity locket declared that she'd never wear a string bikini. Before 1990.
It has been said that Borges wrote Spanish as though it were English, the way Milton et. al. wrote English as though it were Latin.
This could lead to a Borgesian discussion about how his works are untranslatable for that reason, since the strange Englishness cannot be brought over.
Of course Emerson is trying to derail the pubic shaving thread.
Blame AWB.
Pubic shaving, to me, is about the same as Harry Potter, but not as bad as the DLC.
398: Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. His style seems clinically literal in a way, meant to be reproducible in any language. As for 395, amusement yields to envy, although, I'll have to tell you someday about the summer I spent working at a lesbian organic cooperative bakery (not even kidding) so you know where the amusement came from.
As a reasonably young (24) person, it seems to me that you are far more likely to encounter either baldness or neat trimming amongst women in my age group. In fact, aside from one close encounter with a runaway landing strip, I cannot recall coming face to face with a big bush.
As for preference, I am a far more cunning linguist when I do not have to contend with violent shrubery. To each their own I suppose.
As for the flip side, keeping myself shortly trimmed is an essential task, mainly due to the reduced irritation and sweating while playing sports.
Plus, it does have the handy side-effect of optical trickery.
397: I'm not sure I want to investigate, ogged. I just figured that since I hadn't known what a facial was until recently, and since I had to deduce what a brazillian was today, I must be an utter rube.
I wondered if it was like hearing that I really should read Harry Potter, for god's sake, if I wanted to be fluent in contemporary culture. Like, everybody's doing it, baby!
I watch porn about as often as I eat at McDonald's -- which isn't to say that I avoid it -- it's just not on my diet.
Aren't you on dial-up, parsimon? There's no porn on dial-up.
reduced irritation and sweating while playing sports.
it must be one hell of a thicket you chop down for it to make that much of a difference in this respect.
Ogged showers with his porn, and then hangs it up to air-dry.
It all depends what sort of sports you play.
403: I'm allowed to take people on tours, if you're curious. It's quite a scene.
Were you the only man in the lesbian organic cooperative bakery? Alas, it's one of those things that might make a good idea for a porn movie, but a bad idea for a bakery.
the best part is that it's all very local and flavorful, like eating ten tomatoes in a bite. I just had the best mango of my life, and it was like 60 cents.
A mango grown in NY state? Wow.
As a goalie, the additional layer of crotch protection has a tendency to rub and rock most uncomfortably. This may be due to poor equipment choice, or my distant relation to the last Visigoth/Sasquatch union.
Less ball sweat is a plus in my books. Feel free to spend your summer afternoons rubbing and shifting though.
I've only skimmed bits of this thread, and I don't think that I can read the whole thing. It's edifying, though.
A derailment worse than Emerson's:
I just wanted to say a total fuck you to Whole Foods. I was fired this morning when I showed up for work at 7AM. S. had the paperwork in hand. S. wouldn't give me a copy of the final notes, though she said that I could get a copy of one of the warnings if I signed what they wanted me to sign. I wasn't thinking clearly, so I didn't want to sign anything, and I have to go back to pick up my final check.
Apparently S. had checked that she didn't need to give me a copy of the final notes. I asked whether that was in the company policy book and was told that it probably wasn't.
This has been a long time in coming, and Sandy had clearly prepared yesterday. I had thought about asking for medical leave last week. I called yesterday to find out about taking a medical leave and filing for short-term disability. I'm not saying that there's a definite causal connection. S. has wanted to get rid of me for a while, but the timing seems fishy to me. Of course, O can't prove it.
I do kind of wish that I could sue the fuckers or afford an employment lawyer to help me protect my rights.
Less ball sweat is a plus in my books
Couldn't you just stop rubbing your nuts on them?
411: The mango is not local, obviously. Tomatoes and carrots and lettuce, however---mmmm.
415.
I could, but how else would I incite looks of disgust from my teammates?
414: Shit, I'm sorry, BG. That sucks.
389: First time I ever saw porn was on the wedding night. Not a great sign, in retrospect, that the stupid bastard wanted to watch porn on the wedding night. Once more on the honeymoon. Oh boy -- pay-per-view on a hotel teevee -- yippee! As far as I was concerned, it was like baseball -- fun enough to play, but boring as hell to sit and watch. But then, it seems like a good number here watch baseball, too.
Sorry to hear it, BG; getting fired sucks. BUT, now you can collect unemployment while looking for a job you don't loathe, which is what you wanted to do in any case, so don't look back.
Oh, man, I'm sorry. You know, (This Is Not Legal Advice, This Isn't An Area Of Law I Know Anything About) I'd bet that they can't (for some mostly useless level of can't) fire you for asking for FMLA leave. Given that you've already asked for it, I wonder if it might be productive to, when you go back in for your check, try a little blustering about how they can't do that, but for X weeks of paid severance you'd let it pass.
I'd be happy to boycott Whole Foods just on general principles. Admittedly, for me it's easier to boycott them than it would be to shop there.
420 is true enough, and I was cracking under the stress which is why I wanted the medical leave, because I'd been talking about going into a partial hospital. That would have given me time and no gap in my resume.
420 gets it right. Blessing in disguise.
Yeah, it's unlawful for them to fire you for asking for leave. This doesn't mean that you'd win a lawsuit, and I would always advise anyone against suing for anything, but you could certainly file a complaint with the Department of Labor, and it would be possible for you (relying on the linked poster) to file a civil suit. If you wanted to bluster, you've got something to bluster about.
BG, that sucks. Hopefully that sweet, sweet unemployment check without having to deal with S will help.
But really, blessing in disguise is right. That job sounded as if it was making you terribly unhappy.
First time I ever saw porn was on the wedding night. Not a great sign, in retrospect, that the stupid bastard wanted to watch porn on the wedding night. Once more on the honeymoon.
Like, wow.
423: I already boycott Whole Foods on general principles, which is easier for me to do than to shop there.
I do kind of wish that I could sue the fuckers or afford an employment lawyer to help me protect my rights.
I wish I had contacts in Boston or knew more about this area of law. If I were the defendant's lawyer, I would really not want to pick up a case where my client fired someone the day after she inquired about FMLA leave. It seems like it would be worth your while to at least check around for a consult with someone -- you may be able to find a lawyer who would take it on a contingent fee. That really sucks. And I like to encourage lawsuits wherever I can.
LB, I think she asked about leave, not for leave. I'm sure she could still make an argument, but...
Were you the only man in the lesbian organic cooperative bakery?
Yep, and not even out of the closet at the time. I have no idea why they stood for it, but it was a great experience then and a treasured memory now. And as a bonus, I can make a vegan tofu pizza that actually tastes good, if I'm ever called upon to do so. As far as a tour goes, that would totally be worth the helicopter trip into the Slope.
423; I know that I'll never convince ogged (or probably arthegall, who lives in that neighborhood), but I do wish you guys wouldn't shop there.
The thing that's so frustrating is that she had a couple of legitimate issues related to my performance, and I was working on addressing them. (I was a little slow at some of the physical tasks.) But I also think that she just made some shit up. I didn't want to contest it at the time, because I tend to think that "arguing like a lawyer" doesn't get you very far, but she's been keeping records, the better to bludgeon me with.
Sadly, I'm eating a sandwich from Whole Foods as I type this.
First time I ever saw porn was on the wedding night.
The first time I ever saw Beavis and Butthead was on my honeymoon.
432: Still not giving legal advice, but if they could fire you for asking about leave but not for asking for it, that'd be a weird loophole to leave -- if they guess you're going to ask for leave in time to say "You're fired" before you ask, it's cool? No.
Lawsuits will make you miserable, and are to always be avoided unless you have so much money that they don't really affect you, or you have no other options. But this sounds like enough for some scary letters, anyway.
AWhiteBear always seems to operate her analysis at one extra level of abstraction beyond what is necessary.
a vegan tofu pizza that actually tastes good
That's gotta be rarer than a bleached asshole.
432: I said, "How do I get leave, because I may need to go into the hospital." Then she said, "Store leadership needs to sign off on a request before we fax it to Texas along with your doctor's note." I said that I was a bit concerned about confidentiality and was there someone at regional I could speak with. WF does not have an HR dept."
The phrasing is ambiguous. It would make a good law school exam. Still, "If we grant you leave," sounds wrong to me.
Probably made from the same chemicals.
I root for bluster!
Also, 410 to 407.
328 made me remeber that, but you do it all the time. i can't decide if theres something i'm missing.
414: Ugh, I'm sorry. I hope it turns out to be every bit a blessing in disguise, and hooray for COBRA.
I think there is a full-length version of S. there that BG might want to have redacted.
434: I know what LB is saying as far as discouraging litigation (though, LB, c'mon, we've got kids to be putting through college here!), but when you've got a legal issue with at least some statutory basis, I'm a big proponent of getting advice from someone who does this type of work before letting someone stomp all over your rights. Like LB said, it could be a good bargaining chip without having to go all out and sue.
The question is, what do you want from them? Obviously not your job back, your job was an evil nightmare. But if you can come up with something reasonable that they might cough up, like a month's severance, walking in with the FMLA poster and saying "It's unlawful for you to fire me for asking for leave, which I did on X day. Shall I file a complaint with the Department of Labor, or can we talk about severance pay?" might (not necessarily, but it's not impossible) get you somewhere.
And exactly what Di said about talking to someone who does employment law.
First time I ever saw porn was on the wedding night. Not a great sign, in retrospect, that the stupid bastard wanted to watch porn on the wedding night. Once more on the honeymoon.
Awesome. Good to know that even on my worst days I'm not even in the ballpark of this level of cluelessness.
I'm not really interested in suing, but I do want to register a complaint with some agency. I've got other things to worry about--like making sure that I get my medication and figuring out whether COBRA is the way to go or whether I should try to sign up for a subsidized state health plan. United Health sucks ass, and very few doctors take it.
BG, I'm so sorry to hear it. I hope that you find a job that makes you much happier soon.
But if you can come up with something reasonable that they might cough up, like a month's severance
Or even giving whatever the right answer to the unemployment office when they call to see why she got fired is, rather than "for cause".
Condolences, BG. Even though in the long term it's surely for the best.
445: I think legal aid has a long waiting list. I asked Health Care for All's affiliated non-profit law firm whether they ever dealt with cases relating to denial of medical leave, and they said that they could probably refer me to someone.
I hope it turns out to be every bit a blessing in disguise, and hooray for COBRA.
Well, sometimes hooray. When I got laid off several years back during the tech bust, COBRA for my plan with wife and two kids was over 700 a month. Thanks, but I'd like to continue making my house payment.
Or even giving whatever the right answer to the unemployment office when they call to see why she got fired is, rather than "for cause".
Good point.
But peace of mind-wise, I think you're very sensible to walk away. I look at the situation and see spots to attack, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea at all.
Who does one talk to for help getting a job after one has been fired. S. is indeed crazy, but I'm not going to badmouth my boss, and I need to find a way to explain a gap even if it's only a brief one. There are no announced layoffs from WF.
438, 443: Yup! I also get criticized for being too detailed and specific, so that's cool. Everyone has their own tic, annoying to someone.
Everyone has their own tic, annoying to someone.
Being to specific, being too general, paying for hotel porn on your wedding night.
I wasn't clear. Are there job counselling types who can tell you what to say in a cover letter or interview. It's easy enough to say, I'm ready to move on, and here's why I want to do X. It's much harder to say. I was fired, I want to do X, and also, I really need this job.
How did the bot die, btw? It changed my life, briefly, and I loved it. Now, it's abandoned me.
Sign up with an office temp agency tomorrow, and if anyone asks about Whole Foods say that you moved on because of a mismatch between your needs (advancement, so forth) from an employer, and their needs from you. It's my understanding that very few employers will say "She was fired" if someone calls for fear of lawsuits.
389:Ok, I'll answer that question.
Sort of, presuming you mean the professional movies. I did not really watch porn until about ten years ago. Saw Deep Throat on release in a mixed crowd, etc. Playboy photos and other soft-core, fantasies, and reality were sufficient, and remain so.
Since the turn of the century I have become interested in the "Classic Age" 1975-85 material, watching very much of that material exactly once, and a little of the more recent more openly mysogynistic and amateur material for comparison.
I find very little of it erotic, but I do find some that turns me on, based mostly on the performers. No Anal or bondage. Nothing unusual or kinky or hostile. I have about ten or twenty scenes that I have stuck with for years. Mostly I found it in some way interesting, on some wicked meta-level. I still have all the Playboy shoots from 1964-1972. I am very very far from an addict
I don't know what is going on. "Those were the days when the movies had plots, and the people looked real." The plots mostly served to show the actor behind the bad acting, and the ordinary looks also cut the illusion. And the actors I think felt more wicked about what they were doing. Or something.
I have always been some kind of weird anti-social voyeur. I blame those damn Ob-Gyn books before puberty. The mystery is in the faces. I may be worse than a pure objectifier. There is a sick part of me that watches people like bugs. There is a part with empathy and compassion. They are not well-integrated. I watch all movies with this going on to an extent. How does Ben Affleck feel about doing that scene kinda stuff.
I also listen to hundreds of hours of mediocre to bad garage and psych music of the late 60s for reasons I can't quite explain. I love recent slowcore and sadcore but don't give it any time.
Much more than anyone wanted to know. My life as a troll.
My COBRA is cheap $154/ month, but it doesn't cover mental health, and I only just hit the $1100 deductible for medical care. I hit the $550 drug deductible a while ago. It's still only 80% coverage. I think I can spend more than $7K per year out of pocket before the plan covers 100%. Plus, as I said, no mental health.
I had no idea Ben Affleck appeared in porn.
406:
There's no porn on dial-up
Nope. You have to do it yourself.
BG, so sorry. It sounds like, yes, the first order of business is ironing out your health care. Courage up.
How did the bot die, btw? It changed my life, briefly, and I loved it. Now, it's abandoned me.
Based on past evidence, it apologized to you for the narrowness of its bandwidth and then died of embarrassment.
More helpfully, change its contact name from "unfogged" to "unfoggedbot" and you will find that it lives and thrives.
Ditto on temping. Temp temp temp! The work you get can be great or sort of bizarre, but it's wonderful for taking care of a gap. Later you can say "Oh, I switched to temping as a way to move back into an office environment" or whatever.
There's only really one temp agency in Boston.
JL had a suggestion a while ago. One of them was for something that could be gotten relatively quickly which is why I was such a pest this morning. He did e-mail to say that he's busy but will get back in touch.
469: I am calling it by its true and proper name!
The bot might blink in and out while Ben works out the bugs, but for the most part it should be "in."
471: The Yellow Pages show a whole bunch.
My COBRA is cheap $154/ month, but it doesn't cover mental health
Huh, was the mental health on a separate coverage plan from your ordinary health care? I thought (though God knows I could be wrong, and you just did the research) that COBRA meant you were treated like a "similarly situated active employee" for all of your health insurance.
Yeah redact anything too identifiable. I wish that there was a find and replace function. Then I'd turn every S. into a Z. or something.
474: P/S/G has a lock on a lot of MIT jobs and other jobs in hospitals and universities. They have a guaranteed employment deal. Some jobs pay more than $9/hr, but that's their basic rate, and if you show up every morning at 8 or 8:30, they'll pay you to play on the computer so that they can send you out. After a certain amount of time they'll pay half the cost of Harvard/Pilgrim health insurance. They have the highest quality temps (outside of accounting and tech types) and the best temp to perm jobs.
Excellent. Sounds like you have a plan.
I knew when I read the original post that the comment thread was going to be wildly out of control and despite this being one of my very most favorite conversation topics in the entire wide world (and a great one for Unfogged, IMHO), there was no way I'd ever read the whole thing.
I will mention that my new GF is trimmed and, personally, I'm not sure if I like what she's doing. Trimming introduces the sharp cut ends of the hair that shaving does, without ever really achieving smoothness. And so when I go down on her, which is pretty frequent (a function of both mutual sexual preferences and us still being in the new relationship of Doin' It Every Chance We Get), I don't just get a mouthful of coarse wiry hairs (unpleasant but not intolerable), I get a mouthful of coarse wiry sharp hairs (more unpleasant, though certainly still not intolerable). I'm thinking of getting her to modify her trimming pattern to get the little bit up around the inner curve of her outer labia, up around the clit hood, cut back more and maybe away from my lips as much.
I did have a different GF get herself quite thoroughly waxed for a photo shoot. Going down on her during that period was really extremely pleasant, but it's a hell of a lot to ask on an ongoing basis.
rfs--I would be treated like a similarly situated employee. Their ERISA plan doesn't cover mental health.
WF is also really lame, because they have this thing called a personal wellness account which goes toward meeting the deductible. After a certain number of hours they deposit $300. When you've been there longer they put in $1200 per year. It's not an FSA, though you can get one of those, nor is it an HSA, so you can't take the money with you.
Oh, that is annoying. Bugger! I figured it had to be something like that, but I felt an obnoxious meddling need to ask.
BG, it's too bad they got to pick the timing. Best of luck.
I also think that they plan to automatically cash out my 401k, since the amount is pretty low, and I want to make sure that it gets rolled into an IRA, probably at Vanguard.
BG: I'm not sure how it works now that Romney's gone and fucked with it, but Free Care at least used to be fucking awesome. I think it operates based on how much you've made in the last 12 months, so you may need something to tie you over, but check it out anyway.
FYI, there's a useful little loophole in COBRA. (Unfortunately, this doesn't help you, BG, because you have immediate health care needs, but it may be useful for someone else. My sympathies on the whole crappy situation.)
After you leave a job (or get divorced or otherwise have a "triggering event"), you have 60 days to opt in or out of COBRA. If you expect to get other coverage within the 60 days (like if you're starting a new job but the insurance takes a while to kick in) *don't opt in or out*. If your new coverage starts and you didn't have to pay COBRA premiums, awesome. If something happens and you do need the COBRA coverage, you can opt in retroactively -- as long as you didn't say "no" when it was offered initially.
In other words, leave job, don't pay premiums, get hit by a truck on day 59 with no new insurance. You say "I want COBRA," pay the back premiums, and you're covered.
foolishmortal--I'm on free care. That's why my primary care doctor is on staff at a teaching hospital. That helped me pay my deductible. I think it's getting changed. One of my doctors wants me to try to apply for MassHealth. I don't think I'm eligible. And yes, the system is about to change. One form doesn't say that I need to include proof of citizenship in its application, and yet, I know that I do.
i love my giant bush but i like to go bald sometimes too. a man's gotta be down for both if he wants in. ;)
ps im 26, so maybe that's old fashioned of me. :D
Should survey OB-GYNs for an unbiased data set. Is there no one here in that field?
My French-Hungarian friend told me back in the mid 90's about her cousin, an OB-GYN in Budapest, who reported that nearly all of his patients shaved their pubic hair. I recall that both of us thought this exceedingly odd.
Not long after that came the Hungarian debut of the reality show Big Brother, where live action pudenda-shaving was broadcast to a nation that apparently found it unremarkable.
Now as it turns out, Hungary became a leading source of Euro-porn right around that period, because there were so many beautiful, uninhibited blonde women willing to work at much lower wages than Danes and Swedes. So I might hypothesize that Hungarian porn was the cultural transmission belt that mainstreamed the practice.
"landing strip" is "un ticket de métro."
I hadn't heard that one before. That's pretty amusing. If anyone is unfamiliar with the physical form of the real thing, it has a narrow, dark magnetic strip down the middle, like this
I don't have anything to add to the labour-and-legal advice part of the thread except to convey my sympathies to BG (which I do). I will therefore frivolously explore various possible extensions of the phrase "I want COBRA!" ("I want COBRA!" ("I want COBRA!"))
I'd like to add to the chorus of "best of luck, BG".
Yes, as Charlie says at 482, shame they got in first. Best of luck now.
...was on the wedding night. Not a great sign, in retrospect...
Sort of strips away the human sympathy I'm inclined to extend to people. Unforgivable.
493: Oh, hell, that wasn't even the worst part of the honeymoon. But it does please me to know that human sympathy has been withdrawn from the sorry bastard. I'm a little vindictive like that.
Oh, hell, that wasn't even the worst part of the honeymoon
C'mon, gotta tell us now!
At this point we have to start speculating about what's the matter with Di Kotimy that she wound up with a guy like that. Twelve toes?
what's the matter with Di Kotimy that she wound up with a guy like that.
Ogged, she is a lawyer.
At this point we have to start speculating about what's the matter with Di Kotimy that she wound up with a guy like that. Twelve toes?
All of which bear yellow, overgrown toenails. It's probably about time I washed them -- It's practically October, right?
Seriously, speculate away on that question -- the Mineshaft could save me hundreds in what the therapist charges to delve into, "What the fuck were you thinking?!"
"Ogged, she is a lawyer."
"Good point."
I like to swim, too, jackasses.
At this point we have to start speculating about which movie they watched.
501: Based on Di K's reports, I'm betting it wasn't Here Cums the Bride.
At this point we have to start speculating about what's the matter with Di Kotimy that she wound up with a guy like that
Maybe he was a robot from the future sent to destroy us, and she was hedging her bets?
The link in 500(!) doesn't seem to go to a specific comment, just the whole thread.
The link was to the Hamburger Helper/ Poconos comment, I'm sure.
Based on Di K's reports, I'm betting it wasn't Here Cums the Bride.
I'll admit to laughing at that one.
504: really? For me it goes to comment #52.
505: Hmm, it seems to be working now. Curious.
Marrying badly can be a symptom of optimism in humanity. The joke is that women think their men will change while men think their women won't. I'm not sure that I find it funny to laugh at. Thurber's "Middle-aged man on the flying trapeze" written during his unpleasant divorce is perceptive about things going wrong.
"Based on Di K's reports, I'm betting it wasn't Here Cums the Bride."
"I'll admit to laughing at that one."
I'll admit to softly, softly weeping...
women think their men will change
You can't make alterations on a dress you haven't bought.
You can't make alterations on a dress you haven't bought.
And once you've altered the dress, just try to get your money back!
513: and if you can't, cut it up and use it for rags!
514: Calm down, Sifu! There's always the garage sale or thrift store route.
515: some things you can't even give away.
516: Don't fret, Sifu, I'm sure there's a sexual partner out there, even for you.
some things you can't even give away
Sad, but true.
517: pfft. What's the point, when there's hotel porn to be had?
519: I'm using a very expansive definition of "sexual partner".
Hey, there's still one instance of S.'s first name in Bostoniangirl's initial report. Someone might want to redact that.
This thread has, by far, the most subscribers of any currently active thread.
Now, that's interesting. If a lurker subscribes to the bot, does that mean that you now know their IM contact information? Were I a lurker, (a) while that seems obvious, I wouldn't have thought of it offhand, and (b) it would kind of creep me out.
We're losing focus, people. Let's get back to the story of the worst part of the honeymoon . Come on Di, you raised it.
All I know is that there is someone whose screen name is such-and-such. I can't tell from that who it is, whether it's a lurker or not, or anything like that.
There is one entity subscribed to a lot of threads whose name is such that I think it's actually a different bot.
I have a feeling I left my IM client at home open and subscribed to a bunch of threads; when I get back it'll be like the encore presentation of unfogged!
I think it's actually a different bot.
I wonder what bots think of pudendal topiary?
We're losing focus, people. Let's get back to the story of the worst part of the honeymoon . Come on Di, you raised it.
"The actual sex" would be too obvious an answer, right? I think I may have griped about other obnoxious details to enough people I know IRL to render further comment a bad idea.
But, a little crumb: I spent most of the honeymoon vomitting. Vomit, eat lunch, vomit, see some sights, vomit a few more times then off to dinner.... Good times, people, good times.
I wonder what bots think of pudendal topiary?
Ask Edward Penishands.
530: Is your name in real life Zara, perchance?
Even on that thread Ogged is talking about Wh/le F//ds; w/ she who just re-appeared.
w/ she who just re-appeared
Did she just re-appear under a different pseudonym? Or did I miss something?
533: No, but reading that story that did make me gag a little.
But, a little crumb: I spent most of the honeymoon vomitting. Vomit, eat lunch, vomit, see some sights, vomit a few more times then off to dinner.... Good times, people, good times.
Oh crap! Di is my ex wife.
Damn. Well, the movie sucked Will. You weren't much better. There. Now everyone knows.
I have found that: 1) complete shaving is pretty common for the under 30 crowd. 2) They are pretty open about talking about it. 3) It is a little pre-pubescent looking but not so much as to be creepy. 4) The stubble is dangerous if you're not careful about where you put what.
Do you see where this is heading? Soon, we will come to realize that even head hair is kind of gross and dirty, as well as ugly compared to new high-performance wigs. More and more of us, as well, will embrace the bare shaved head as a clean, young-looking look. When Homeland Security bans passengers from entering planes with any natural hair on their heads or bodies, few will mind. By that time, we'll all have a device in our shower to ionize all hair from our body every morning.
Next, we'll begin to see that the real problem is skin itself -- oily, smelly, discolored...
...In time, the old-fashioned few who still use organic tissue for their brain matter, deep inside their titanium frame, will realize that people are looking at them funny -- they'll wonder -- do I smell bad? Could it be... the *cells*? Oh, the shame...
