Re: Ask The Mineshaft: Losin' It Edition

1

as a high school senior, my time is kind of running out

Jeez, you're killing me over here.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:35 AM
horizontal rule
2

Go for the first person who'll have you and, yes, it's desperately important if you want to avoid a life of blog commenting.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
3

Alternately, avoid listening to me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
4

Resist this notion that whether you ought to have sex with this girl is socially constructed. Your friends' comments? The Unfoggedetariat's take? Young friend, when you've met someone you like physically and personality-ly, the question will be can you dig it, not should you.

Also, this is life and not the script of Can't Hardly Wait, and it really doesn't matter whether or not you have sex before the end of high school. Plus, it makes the baby ben w-lfs-n cry when you talk that way.

Bottom line: If you don't like this girl, you will be doing her and yourself a great disservice by sleeping with her. First time or no, sex is way better when all parties involved are into it.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:43 AM
horizontal rule
5

Er, no. Do not "go for it". Do not have sex with this unfortunate young woman for whom you feel, essentially, contempt. Do not have sex with this young woman who is always positioned as dumber and uglier than her wonderful friends--have to wonder whether that will hold up in college, of course, since I've been the dumb, ugly one in a circle made up of mean, shallow people who later crashed and burned. You can certainly have sex with someone for whom you don't care deeply, but jesus christ, don't have sex with someone you actually dislike, especially when they have a crush on you.

I was used like that--in college, no less--and it messed me up badly for a couple of years.

And I add that not actually fucking anyone until college is fairly common among the smart set. If, that is, you're as smart as you say.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
6

Dude, Neil Gaiman? You've gotta get over that shit.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
7

Only fuck people you hate. You'll be a seething cauldron of regret and shame afterwards, but the sex itself is fantastic.

By all means, go to college still a virgin. You'll find plenty of hateful people there looking for ways to lose their virginity while extremely drunk. It's win-win.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
8

No good will come of this.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
9

And to continue--you may well think, on some level, that by having sex with this young-woman-with-a-crush you are giving her what she wants. You'd be getting something you wanted, or at least getting rid of something you don't, so everybody's happy, right?

Well, it's extremely unlikely that YWWAC just wants to get laid. God knows whether she wants an actual relationship, but she almost certainly doesn't want the brief pleasures of your body followed by a kiss on the forehead and a run for the door. You won't be giving her what she wants.

In fact, that might be a good rule for compassionate sexual behavior--try to have some idea what the other person wants out of the interaction, and if you really, really can't provide anything ressembling it, don't have sex.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
10

Wait, how many of our commenters are too young to vote?


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
11

You can certainly have sex with someone for whom you don't care deeply, but jesus christ, don't have sex with someone you actually dislike, especially when they have a crush on you.

Is right.

And I add that not actually fucking anyone until college is fairly common among the smart set. If, that is, you're as smart as you say.

On the other hand, is not. Not fucking until college isn't some groovy badge of smartness.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:53 AM
horizontal rule
12

Sex with people you hate is okay, yeah, as long as they hate you too. Sex with people you dislike, probably not so much.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 AM
horizontal rule
13

Man, the ATMineshafts I always got were so fucking hard! Why didn't I get easy questions like this?


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 AM
horizontal rule
14

Yeah, mere dislike isn't much of aphrodisiac. It has to be balls-out hatred.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
15

Oh, there's nothing wrong with Neil Gaiman, nor with wanting someone who likes the same silly stuff you do. Building a life philosophy around Neil Gaiman would be weird, but [Nameless] isn't doing that.

Everyone's right -- don't have sex with people you don't think much of, it's mean. You don't have to be truly in love; there's nothing wrong with having random sex with someone you don't really know where the mutual approach is that it's just sex, not friendship or love. But someone who really likes you and you're bored by, it's completely uncool; you'll end up being a shit to her, and that's lousy for her and builds bad habits for you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
16

Lie back and think of Mary Wollstonecraft!

Awesome.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
17

Not fucking until college isn't some groovy badge of smartness.

Helps with the sublimation, though.

Fucking sublimation.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
18

11: Oh, that's not what I meant. I meant "geeky people often don't have sex until college when they often get some self confidence and meet a broader range of folks", not that there's some virtue in waiting until college to have it off. More of an "it's perfectly normal" than "for god's sake, young man, wait until you're living in the dorms!"


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:56 AM
horizontal rule
19

When it comes to advice about sex and relationships, I like what someone once called "the KOA campground rule": try to leave everythingone a little better than you found them. If you don't think you can do that, don't sleep with her.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:57 AM
horizontal rule
20

On the other hand, is not. Not fucking until college isn't some groovy badge of smartness.

Not fucking until *after* college is the groovy badge.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:57 AM
horizontal rule
21

20: Don't listen to Ben! You'll just end up not asking out women in laundromats.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:59 AM
horizontal rule
22

Not fucking until *after* college is the groovy badge

I am on my way to being one of the grooviest people on the planet.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:00 AM
horizontal rule
23

Hey, no hating on Neil Gaiman!

I'm happily married thanks to Neil Gaiman, in a roundabout sort of way. Back in the pre-internet days, there were these things called "zines", and my wife and I were both big enough nerds to subscribe to a Sandman zine called "Dream Lovers." Of course, the zine turned into something of a nerd penpal/dating service, but it worked.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
24

People who fail to have sex before college gain ttaM's stiff disapproval. Suck on that, Frowner!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
25

Imagine you're in a sex thread on Unfogged 3.11 in 2037, and you find yourself writing:

"My first time was giving a pity fuck to the class bore, so I had to spend the rest of the year avoiding her until I could leave town."

What was the question, again?

It doesn't matter a damn to anybody but you if you're still a virgin when you go to college, or when you graduate, or when you turn 30. But you won't be.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
26

I'm relieved we conscend about this; I was afraid in 20 comments somebody would be arguing he should. Serious people arguing you should was actually my experience when I balked.

I should try to compile a list of "negatives" that would add up to a kind of minus-signed Reed score.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
27

I like what someone once called "the KOA campground rule": try to leave everyone a little better than you found them.

For me, that was a precursor to the no-relationship rule, because it so seldom seemed to work that way.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
28

Not fucking until *after* college is the groovy badge

You're really going to like graduating from college, Cala.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
29

Free Neil Gaiman-related advice: if your dream girl, so to speak, is Delirium from Sandman, you will probably have a lot of dating problems. Do not (and mercifully this was something I watched happen but was not involved in...it was awful to watch) date a verbal, funny, tough fat chick (who--let me add--never had trouble dating guys who were actually attracted to her) when you secretly pine for a tiny, non-verbal, whimsical Tori Amos figure.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
30

Jesus, kid, the first thing you need to do is to stop reading Unfogged. I'm completely serious.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
31

Don't have sex with people you're not into--not just because it's mean to *them* but because it'll make you feel like crap afterwards. And it'll be shitty sex. The first time you have sex it's going to be shitty anyway, so god knows don't add extra bonus shittiness on top of it.

You don't have to be deeply in love or even want a relationship with someone to fuck them, mind, but you do have to be honest with them: no pretending you want X if you want Y. If you were to show the girl this question, what do you think she'd do? There's your answer.

And no, god, you don't have to have sex before college. You don't have to have sex while you're in college. It's not a freaking race. All you have to do is learn to be comfortable with women, if you're not already, and the sex will happen when it's time.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
32

I hereby elect myself captain of "Team Aaaaaaaah Go For It".


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
33

The first time you have sex it's going to be shitty anyway, so god knows don't add extra bonus shittiness on top of it

This is a guy we're giving advice to, and it was not true for me. And I think last time we talked about this, maybe a month ago, some women said their firsts weren't shitty either.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
34

And it'll be shitty sex

or to put it another way, still quite good.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
35

Why 30? I don't think we're bad for the younguns. We're a bunch of boys and girls who get along pretty well and fight and talk about all sorts of things, and we demonstrate flirting from time to time and how to talk about real stuff as well. It's not at all a bad model of adult social relationships.

Shit, Ogged, do you know what kind of crap *most* high school guys read on the internet?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
36

Realistically, I suspect that the question "should I go for it?" is being asked probably means dude has already decided to go for it, and any advice that pops up on this thread is going to be largely ineffectual. This is very liberating; you can basically recommend sex with groovy smart chicks or sex with aardvarks to equal effect.

So, dude: obviously your hookup will not be the first questionable screw in history. However, I'm not going to say "don't beat yourself up about it;" if you don't beat yourself up about such things, you eventually turn into a shit, and you don't want that.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
37

Don't listen to these nerdballs. You need to go for it because this

""Stop the giggling and the arm-touching, just casually name-drop P.G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman in a conversation, watch how quickly the pants come off,"

is absurd. Don't make me come over there and kick your pretentious ass. Get over yourself, have a fun roll in the hay. Be nice to her, even if it turns out after all is said and done you're not that into her.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
38

My advice is to marry the first one that comes along. Civilizations have been built on this principle.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
39

Given that your first time is bound to be pretty crappy, maybe there's something to be said for doing it with someone you don't like very much anyway.

I was very much in love with my first lover, and I think that made the crappiness all the more crappy.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
40

Okay, here's a hard followup question. [Nameless] should not have sex with this girl. On the other hand, from her point of view, she's running into the "God, boys are so oblivious!" issue, because the socially constructed ways she has of making a pass can be ignored rather than turned down, if you see what I mean. She doesn't (necessarily) know that he knows she's interested and doesn't share her interest, she's in the position of thinking he's just not getting it.

What can he decently do to clarify this? I'm really not coming up with anything -- anything that would make the situation explicit seems mean, but leaving her hanging also seems non-optimal. (I would note that she shares responsibility for the ambiguity here, but she's not the one asking for advice.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
41

Do you go to my daughter's high school?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
42

Christ kid. No, it's not a problem to be a virgin in college.

I'm operating under the assumption that she hasn't come up to you and offered sex, no strings attached. So, that in mind, how do you see this working? She obviously likes you, so I guess you'll pretend to be her boyfriend for a while. Meanwhile your friends feel contempt for her and so do you, but you're going to mask all that so she'll give it up.

And then what? Roll off her and leave, satisfied that you can go off to college and be a man? Congrats, your halfway to becoming someone's story about her asshole high school boyfriend. I don't buy into the nonsense that your first time has to be with someone you love, but using people is wrong.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
43

I had to spend the rest of the year avoiding her

This is absolutely the inevitable outcome and avoiding her will be so, so, so much more difficult than I ever imagined. Um, I mean, than you could imagine. Because we're talking hypothetically. About you.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
44

my advice would be first dispose of this image of yourself as basically a good person who always does the moral thing, and then do it. I "I am a good person" hangup is the source of 75%[1] of the hideous personality problems of the people on this blog.

[1] most of the other 25% is basically me.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:15 AM
horizontal rule
45

Yes, your first time is probably going to be awkward and weird and somewhat eh but that's not an argument for sleeping with someone you don't like. I still think my approach (an awesome one week fling with someone from out of town) was a good one for handling that.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:15 AM
horizontal rule
46

Seriously? You people are seriously advising this kid to have sex with a girl he thinks is boring and homely because he wants to see what sex is like? Because she won't figure it out? Thank god I never met any of you when I was young and unhappy.

Once again, Unfogged makes me feel lucky that my nerdy life has led me only to sleep with people well after I was very sure they really, genuinely liked me.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
47

What can he decently do to clarify this?

He should lie and tell her that he's gay.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
48

Plus, when you get to college, you can dangle your virginity in front of women like a bloody steak before tigers.

Okay, so sometimes it doesn't work that way.

I had to read this one aloud to my houseguest. It is teh Mineshaft. (Sexual anxiety + youthful misogyny) / (compulsive self-analysis + guilt) = 18yo Mineshaft Boy.

Ogged is right. You're asking us how to have a successful and happy sexual life as a teen? We eat teens for breakfast.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
49

A surprisingly high percentage of college students retain their virginity. Until they sign up for my course, that is. The second sentence is a joke; the first is not. College students routinely overestimate the amount of sex their peers are having.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
50

37: welcome to the team my brother


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
51

Maybe he could find a way to tell her that he finds her *brutal honesty which I feel bad typing* kind of dull.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:18 AM
horizontal rule
52

Seriously, B, do you think that Unfogged as a font of relationship wisdom? I think of Unfogged as a lot of interesting people whose tendency to be relationally problematic is redeemed by other strengths (though there are some of whom seem to have come to reasonable accommodations with relationship reality. )


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
53

I was all set to agree with everyone else, but now I've gone and talked myself out of it: I think that maybe you should sleep with this girl. It sounds like you're in the mood to be a bit emotionally grandiose about the issue, which is perfectly understandable for high school and your first sexual encounter. But it also means that the encounter is likely to lead to embarrassment and emotional hurt for everyone involved. This is the real reason why you should try to get laid in high school: there are fewer dorm buildings for you to do pathetically romantic things outside of.

If you think sleeping with this girl won't be horribly unfair to her, go for it. If you think that waiting until college would allow you to end your virginity while resisting the urge to make anyone read the material you later write about it, then do that.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
54

I am also tempted to agree with the "It's not that big a deal" brigade. The question is whether you see it playing out in a way that she's likely at all to be happy with -- Becks' campground rule. If you're pretty sure you can pull that off, and your feelings aren't really as negative as you've presented them (like, do you really think she's 'kind of dull', or are you just inflating her imperfections to make the question sound like a bigger deal), there's nothing terribly wrong with it even if it's not true love.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
55

Until they sign up for my course, that is.

Office hours? Ohhhh, yes. I do have office hours.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
56

Hey, what does a good-quality escort cost these days? We could all club together and pay for one, thus obviating the need to fuck ol' Homely and Boring, or perhaps our young friend has a part time job and could simply save up. (I'm not entirely kidding, either; if you want to have sex and there aren't any appropriate candidates, there's nothing wrong with a trained professional.)


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
57

I think he should give it a fair go at being friends with her and seeing if she's nice really for the next six months. Then if she grows on him they'll fall into bed anyway and if she doesn't they can have a farewell fuck at the "prom" or whatever they call it and go away with no hard feelings. I can put on a sincere face and talk about emoootions if that makes it seem easier to take.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
58

44: my advice would be first dispose of this image of yourself as basically a good person who always does the moral thing, and then do it.

Exactly. Then, tell yourself "I am a bad person." Apply whiskey, repeat. Civilizations have been built on this principle.

37 is awesome.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
59

I'm operating under the assumption that she hasn't come up to you and offered sex, no strings attached. So, that in mind, how do you see this working? She obviously likes you, so I guess you'll pretend to be her boyfriend for a while. Meanwhile your friends feel contempt for her and so do you, but you're going to mask all that so she'll give it up.

And then what? Roll off her and leave, satisfied that you can go off to college and be a man? Congrats, your halfway to becoming someone's story about her asshole high school boyfriend. I don't buy into the nonsense that your first time has to be with someone you love, but using people is wrong.

Cala speaks the truth. The problem is the aftermath. She probably doesn't just want sex. She wants the sex to lead to you being a bf.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
60

53, 54: Team AaaaaGFI, the fastest growing organisation on this thread!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
61

College students routinely overestimate the amount of sex their peers are having.

Corollary: those that talk the most about it are probably virgins. Bags of sand.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
62

those that talk the most about it are probably virgins

everyone's grandmother and guidance teacher wants this to be true but it isn't.

love,
the STD epidemiology literature.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
63

The problem is the aftermath.

This is true even from a purely selfish perspective. If you find her flirting vaguely annoying now, just you wait.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
64

If you find her flirting vaguely annoying now, just you wait

but there is also a chance that all those habits he found dull and irritating beforehand, once they've shagged, will become fascinating and charming!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
65

38 is sound advice.


Posted by: Invisible Adjunct | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
66

College students routinely overestimate the amount of sex their peers are having.

College students routinely overestimate everything, except how much work they should be doing.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
67

There is no good reason to even consider having sex with someone you feel no attraction towards. This is one of the first things you learn after a few bad ideas become mortifying realities; these, inevitably, beget shameful visits to the doctor, followed by months of obsessive Bible-reading and the construction of scale-model Lego cities where lying in the dark is against the law.


Posted by: dave zacuto | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
68

I don't know what our advice-seeker should do but this thread is making me want to have sex with dsquared.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
69

christ are you in for a disappointment.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
70

It does sound as though Apo knows what he's talking about.

Teenagers reading Unfogged should know that we have no antiquated taboo against making things up and talking about things we don't really understand.

Or I don't, at least.

We have slipped the bonds of the Discourse of Truth and are free!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
71

Fuck. Dsquared's pulling that reverse-psych thing. I hate that thing.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
72

In support of Team AaaaaGFI: I got an invitation to my 20th high school reunion this past week. One of the items in the questionnaire was "After all these years, I still wish I'd ...."

The first thing that came to my mind was "... fucked S____ H____ when I had the chance."

I'm kind of torn about attending the thing, since my 15th college reunion was such a disappointment. What does the Mineshaft have to say on the subject of attending reunions?


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
73

57 is not bad advice, because if you actually like the person and everyone's on the same page as to where it's going, no problem with a little prom sex. But right now it's sounding like a bad edit of American Pie: hey, the only one who will have me is the ugly chick, am I a feminist if I fuck her?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
74

72: Don't bother. You lost touch with people from high school for a reason.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
75

68: Is this "shit in the campground" hate sex we're talking about.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
76

"... fucked S____ H____ when I had the chance."

Dude, you passed up a shot at Salma Hayek!?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
77

Argh. 54 didn't say what I meant it to. What it should have said is that if the letter can be taken straight, don't do it, it'd be shitty and like everyone else says, you're not on a schedule.

But the last paragraph makes me wonder whether you actually are attracted to her, but you think she's not statusy enough for your guy friends. In which case if you can get over your guy friends and any temptation derived from them to treat her badly (that is, don't get into any kind of relationship with her you're not going to be publicly enthusiastic about), there might not be anything wrong with it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
78

Also, as a high school senior, my time is kind of running out - how important is it to go into college without your virginity?

Not very important. But it does help, just like having experience helps.

From my own experience, I don't recommend getting involved with people you're not attracted to, and especially not people you feel pity for in any way.

When I was in high school I generally presumed that any girl who I was attracted to, even if we had a lot in common and enjoyed conversations with each other, was out of my league for the so-called "dating" or "relationship" that was of course so very far removed from actual friendship. So what I did instead was try to identify which unattractive girls seemed to be attracted to me, and ask them out, presuming that I would actually be able to go out with such a girl, unlike any girl I was actually attracted to, and would hopefully become attracted to her during the romance and excitement of a so-called "date". It didn't work.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
79

75: I jolly well hope so.

71: the tragic thing is that it's not "reverse" - this actually is my psychology.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
80

But the last paragraph makes me wonder whether you actually are attracted to her, but you think she's not statusy enough for your guy friends.

I took that as meaning that he actually is not attracted to her, but wonders if the effect of peer pressure has somehow convinced him that his own preferences are not his own preferences, in the absence of any detectable attraction.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
81

But there is also a chance that all those habits he found dull and irritating beforehand, once they've shagged, will become fascinating and charming!

I believe that it has been experimentally shown that this is one of those theoretically possible but statistically amlost infinitely unlikely outcomes, like all of the air rushing out of a corked bottle and leaving a vacuum inside when you pull the cork out.

Eddington described this kind of tiny statistical possibility as "much less likely than a million monkeys on a million typewriters producing the works of Shakespeare." It seems that there should be a standard sign for monkey-Shakespeare probability.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
82

I think he should give it a fair go at being friends with her and seeing if she's nice really for the next six months.

I thought he already was friends with her and she was simultaneously the only one of his group of female friends who he thinks likes him, and the only one of said friends whom he doesn't like.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
83

Maybe this girl never reads Wodehouse and Gaiman because she's too busy fucking. And now she wants to do dirty naughty things to this guy, and you people are trying to talk him out of it.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
84

78: Wouldn't it be groovy if hypothetical-boring-chick was really pulling a Cryptic Ned in reverse?

And Cryptic, that was actually my dating modus operandi for much of my twenties. Boys I liked? Too good for me! Girls I liked? Terrifying! Best to date the sad little nerdboys who hit on me...

...Hm, perhaps my response to this question is motivated by guilt more than anger.

In which case, I add--I got pretty bored, sexually, with all those guys very fast. It made me feel both guilty and confused that I wasn't into sleeping with them, because after all, we were dating. I also stayed in those relationships much longer than was wise, out of guilt.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
85

80: That's probably right -- certainly if the letter is to be taken straight. 77 rests on the possibility that it's almost all not what he's actually feeling.

But basically the 'don't have sex with anyone you're not enthusiatic about,' rule is a really good one, as is 'don't put yourself in a position where you know you're going to act like a shit.'


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
86

78 sounds like sexual affirmative action. None of us like to be the recipient of the soft bigotry of low expectations, as I'm sure Ned has found out, and Letter-Writer will soon.

It's one thing to develop a taste for partners who are genuinely interesting, good-looking specifically to you, compatible with your needs and interests, and so forth. It's something that happens with time, I think. In high school 90% of the student body longs uselessly after two or three student bodies. Later, you'll figure out that those people are not just "unreachably great"; they're actually quite unattractive in other ways, and that girl with the loud laugh in your math class is actually totally charming.

Women can tell the difference between being actually liked and being settled for.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
87

What 40 picks up on, and the post scenario is good data for, is something I was trying to say last week: Cluelessness and Obliviousness are over-diagnosed; it's often enough true that overtures are noticed, it's what to do about them that's the problem.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
88

Given that your first time is bound to be pretty crappy, maybe there's something to be said for doing it with someone you don't like very much anyway.

Absolutely true. Just as long as the "not like very much" is mutual.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
89

But basically the 'don't have sex with anyone you're not enthusiatic about,' rule is a really good one, as is 'don't put yourself in a position where you know you're going to act like a shit.'

counterpoint: naaaaah they're not.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
90

Maybe this girl never reads Wodehouse and Gaiman because she's too busy fucking. And now she wants to do dirty naughty things to this guy, and you people are trying to talk him out of it.

That made me laugh out loud.

Plus, his friends are probably getting all the dirty naughty action from this girl and are trying to discourage this kid from getting some too.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:37 AM
horizontal rule
91

I found going to my 20th very interesting; I spent nearly a month thinking about it afterwards, which is unusual for me. I didn't expect to say or hear much, I've moved away from the place I went to school, and my graduating class was 800 people, a good fraction of whom did something other than slump into whatever was easiest. I think all three conditions are important for a good time.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:37 AM
horizontal rule
92

there's nothing wrong with a trained professional.

Frowner!!!!!! You shock and horrify me. Yeah, horny guy: if you want to have sex, don't do it with the psychologically fucked up ugly chicks; do it with the psychologically fucked up call girls.

D2 and Gswift make a good point; the bluntly honest girl who is willing to actually make the first move is quite a catch. But if their read of the situation is correct, he still shouldn't fuck her--she needs to find someone better.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
93

In high school 90% of the student body longs uselessly after two or three student bodies. Later, you'll figure out that those people are not just "unreachably great"; they're actually quite unattractive in other ways, and that girl with the loud laugh in your math class is actually totally charming.

No, I think these girls I was attracted to were eminently attainable, they were in my circle of friends after all. It just seemed more logical at the time that something like the "ladder theory" would dictate such things.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
94

89: Man, there's something just so satisfying about having all my prejudices about men who work in the financial sector confirmed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
95

something like the "ladder theory"

This is why I think Unfogged is, relatively speaking, a *great* source for relationship advice. Because IME, shit like the "ladder theory" and Fark are what boys that age tend to read.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:42 AM
horizontal rule
96

I'm still challenging the notion that first sex is an invariably bad or painful experience.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
97

93: Yeah, I'm wondering what the problem is with pursuing the ineffectual crushing on the girls he's actually attracted to. Probably a better route.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
98

act like a shit, enthusiastic

Both these phrases are ambiguous, counselor. Lying outright is bad, but that doesn't exclude much. Not being very open, and not expecting much openness before becoming enthusiastic-- these shades of grey are where things got interesting, if my memory is not completely shot.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
99

94: To say nothing of Minneapolitan (and don't call him M!)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
100

Kobe didn't wait 'til college.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
101

98: The situation as described in the letter sounds like it's heading into unambiguous 'being a shit' territory -- screwing someone you don't think much of and then behaving in a manner that makes that low opinion palpable to them. "Enthusiasm" also isn't terribly ambiguous -- if you're faced with the prospect of having sex with someone, and you're writing letters to a bunch of emotionally dysfunctional lawyers, philosophers, and other weirdos on the internet about it rather than being straightforwardly delighted by the prospect, you're not enthusiastic.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
102

78 sounds like sexual affirmative action. None of us like to be the recipient of the soft bigotry of low expectations

once more, counterpoint: naaaah


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
103

This is why I think Unfogged is, relatively speaking, a *great* source for relationship advice. Because IME, shit like the "ladder theory" and Fark are what boys that age tend to read.

No, I think it's intrinsically logical and we have to be talked out of it rather than the reverse.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
104

the bluntly honest girl who is willing to actually make the first move is quite a catch.

A girl who is like this in high school is probably going to rock his world.

Christ, "show/fake a little interest, and don't be a dick" is not a high bar I'm setting. He's a senior who's a virgin, so we already know the ladies aren't lining up to bang him. Beggars can't be choosers, and maybe once you've got a bit of experience you won't be a beggar.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
105

I'm still challenging the notion that first sex is an invariably bad or painful experience.

Yeah. I had a great time!


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:50 AM
horizontal rule
106

Women People can tell the difference between being actually liked and being settled for.

Yes.

It is in part because of this that the campground principle is a good one.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:51 AM
horizontal rule
107

just like having experience helps.

I find one acquires experience just after it was needed.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:51 AM
horizontal rule
108

I'm still challenging the notion that first sex is an invariably bad or painful experience.

Compared to sex once you know what you're doing, it's crappy.

Of course, I suppose if you never improved, the first time would still seem like magic. Maybe *that's* the explanation for all the fundie advice (and associated fundie hiring of prostitutes/cruising men's rooms).


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
109

104: It's the 'don't be a dick' part of it. He really doesn't sound as if he's likely to make a success of that, from the way he's talking about her.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
110

I'm still challenging the notion that first sex is an invariably bad or painful experience.

That's because you've got the word "invariably" in there instead of "usually".

Also, replace "painful" with "disappointing or frustrating".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
111

the campground principle is a good one.

$5 day pass and no parking on the lower slopes?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
112

The situation as described in the letter sounds like it's heading into unambiguous 'being a shit' territory -- screwing someone you don't think much of and then behaving in a manner that makes that low opinion palpable to them.

Team Aaaaah Go For It does not endorse the "behaving in a manner that makes that low opinion palpable to them" part of that plan.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
113

Oh, I didn't realize this was still in the voice of an advice column. Yes, anyone asking strangers for advice should behave honorably, and work on the goal of understanding people well enough to not take an interest in the advice of strangers.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
114

The kid should listen to gswift bc everyone knows gswift gets it on like the easter bunny.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
115

Save your earnest advice. This letter was written by ogged fifteen years ago.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
116

None of us like to be the recipient of the soft bigotry of low expectations

What dsquared said.

Imagine if in high school girls who were unsure of their attraction to me had resolved the question with a good screw. Traumatizing, I'm sure.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
117

everyone knows gswift gets it on like the easter bunny.

The internet does not lie.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
118

112: Man, you're slipping here.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
119

Reading the letter properly,

uncomplimentary, sexist comments my guy friends have made about her and her group of friends, which I called them out for but which I'm not sure I've fully scrubbed from my head. It was really weird - I kept getting this urge from some misogynist part of me, when I was writing this email, to attach a picture of her so I could get some "objective" validation. Effing subconscious.

Subconscious my Shakespearean ass. This is social status you are worried about.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
120

I'm still challenging the notion that first sex is an invariably bad or painful experience.

Compared to sex once you know what you're doing, it's crappy

That you get better at it very quickly isn't the same as saying the first time is bad.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
121

Yes, okay IDP; I'm sure your first time was magical.

Everyone else's was crap.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:55 AM
horizontal rule
122

92: I know women who've done sex work at the well-compensated-and-safe level. Now, I've also met, casually, some street prostitutes. Women who do sex work often have issues, yeah, but hell, I have issues, even though I'm not a prostitute, inasmuch as one can say that under capitalism.

The thing is, sex work is sex work. If you pony up your $500 (or whatever it is now), at least you're not under the illusion that you're doing the girl a favor, or that losing your virginity is some kind of mystical experience. And what is essentially requested here is a service, dressed up with a lot of interpersonal stuff--the questioner wants to lose his virginity, not enter into some sort of affective relations.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:55 AM
horizontal rule
123

Well, my first time was bad. And the reason is because I was really nervous and had no idea what to do. It seems to me that those factors would be hard for most people to avoid, but maybe not.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
124

I have described my first experience as not-great, but honestly, I didn't realize that until much later. At the time, I was a very happy Bear. Experience should make us make better decisions, and it's not a bad thing.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
125

I agree with 122. If the prostitute with a heart of gold really existed in every town it would make this sort of thing so much easier.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
126

Women who do sex work often have issues, yeah, but hell, I have issues, even though I'm not a prostitute, inasmuch as one can say that under capitalism.

MMMMM, I think this is pretty glib. (For the record, I've made the same argument.) I don't have an issue with women who choose to do sex work at all, but I'm not going to advise men to hire women for sex, like, ever. It's a gross and offensive thing to do.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
127

prostitute with a heart of gold really existed

Oh, they exist. It's just that they're in the cardiac ICU, hoping they can move up the transplant list in time.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
128

That's because you've got the word "invariably" in there instead of "usually".

Also, replace "painful" with "disappointing or frustrating"

I used invariably as a variation on the word "always" I was responding too. That word, or the alternative, is the point in question.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
129

This letter to the Mineshaft is an effort to get a Lady Unfoggeder (as Di and LB like to be called) to step up and take one for the team?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
130

"uncomplimentary, sexist comments my guy friends have made about her and her group of friends, which I called them out for almost said something about until I remembered that they would beat me with my copy of Wodehouse."


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
131

I'm not going to advise men to hire women for sex, like, ever

BitchPhD: objectively pro-starving prostitutes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
132

122, 125: Further on this tangent: the problem is the underlying implication that men are entitled to have sex on their terms, and women are obligated to provide that, whether for love or money. Uh uh.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:00 AM
horizontal rule
133

I have described my first experience as not-great, but honestly, I didn't realize that until much later. At the time, I was a very happy Bear. Experience should make us make better decisions, and it's not a bad thing.

AWB makes a good point.

I am still friends with my first serious gf. Not horribly long ago, we had lunch and laughed at how much we didnt know then.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
134

131: Bitch PhD: objectively naive enough to believe that all men aren't assholes.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
135

If you pony up your $500 (or whatever it is now)

was it ever $500 then? Did you grow up in St Tropez or something?


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
136

104: It's the 'don't be a dick' part of it. He really doesn't sound as if he's likely to make a success of that, from the way he's talking about her.

Exactly. Dude, there's no way that you should do this. You're worried about who she's not, you're worried about what your friends think--there's no way you're going to be able to pull off being nice to her, which even gswift makes a precondition for doing this. Being nice doesn't mean during the act and immediately thereafter. It means that you're not embarrassed to be seen with her in public and that you don't say nasty things behind her back to prove that you're better than she is. There's no shame in caring about social status, but you're an asshole if you fool yourself into thinking that you don't care about it and treat people badly as a result. Don't be an asshole.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
137

I can put on a sincere face and talk about emoootions if that makes it seem easier to take.

Talking about emotions is bad. Stiff-upper lip, all the way.

Except if the emotion is anger, or drunken maudlinism, obviously.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:02 AM
horizontal rule
138

The problem is the underlying implication that women are entitled to relationships on their terms, and men are obligated to provide that. Nuh uh.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
139

The ethical concerns about sex work aside, feeling the need to hire a prostitute because you're a high schooler with virginity intact is insane. Losing your V in college is not uncommon at all.

Plus, I think if you say, "My first time is going to suck anyway," it is guaranteed to suck just as much as if you say, "My first time is going to be a magical and perfect meeting of souls."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
140

Women People can tell the difference between being actually liked and being settled for.

Guys who are enthusiastic about anything that walks are thought of as scuzzy, but actually they're a blessing int eh right circumstance. Likewise, booty critics aren't much fun because they're always waiting for the perfect booty.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
141

Without reading the thread:

The question isn't so much whether you like her as whether you respect her. Your tone in the letter to the mineshaft is not respectful, but that may be an artifact of the way you set up the problem. If she's a nice girl, but perhaps not your ideal, and you can show her the compassion and decency she deserves, than maybe you should go for it.

Here's an idea: rather than just jumping into bed with her the next time she invites you over to an empty house, go on a date together. While you are on the date, try to see her for herself, not as a foil for her smarter sexier friends. If you enjoy the date, get horizontal.

Don't worry about being a virgin when you get to college. Once you are there, you will have plenty of sex no matter what.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
142

You're worried about who she's not, you're worried about what your friends think

Ogged: objectively anti any teenager having sex ever.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
143

139: Everyone should have relationships on their terms. If you can't find that, you shouldn't have a relationship. This isn't some cliche-ridden battle of the sexes bullshit. It's called treating the opposite sex as human beings, who are entitled to say no.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
144

ttaM's disapproval and upper lip are both stiff. Stiffness in all theaters is to be expected from ttaM.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
145

Women who do sex work at the safe and well-compensated level aren't necessarily well-adjusted.

Fucked if I know how to think about this. On the theoretical level, a matter-of-fact attitude toward sex work seems likeliest to obviate the worst shit, which logically means giving up the practice of looking down on people who hire escorts, or on what escorts do.

On the practical level, I find this almost impossible to implement. Like it or not, I do look down on people who pay for sex and pity (it's an ugly emotion but might as well own up to it) sex workers. When I discovered a friend of mine was resorting to escorts for sex, I was happy to see him aggressively shamed, and I viscerally hate the idea of being a punter or being seen as one.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
146

Don't worry about being a virgin when you get to college. Once you are there, you will have plenty of sex no matter what

Not true.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
147

145 is my attitude exactly.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
148

You know what else is a valuable thing to learn? That the opinion of your jackass friends is no substitute for getting laid.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
149

Everyone should have relationships on their terms. If you can't find that, you shouldn't have a relationship.

my terms are decidedly reasonable and intensely negotiable.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
150

141: If she's a nice girl, but perhaps not your ideal, and you can show her the compassion and decency she deserves, than maybe you should go for it.

IME, this is very difficult for young people to do. Our question asker may or may not be capable of it. It's not something I learned until college.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
151

126: I don't think so. I think it's demystifying. I think that a lot of men want, essentially, prostitutes who will also provide maid service and amateur therapy--but they don't want to pay for those things, they want them provided free, out of "love". High-end prostitution is--as far as I know from word of mouth, at least--fairly safe.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:08 AM
horizontal rule
152

Reading the comments, I like Becks' campground principle in 19.

I have to work now.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
153

148 speaks truth.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
154

prostitutes who will also provide maid service and amateur therapy

That would indeed kick ass.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:10 AM
horizontal rule
155

I think that a lot of men want, essentially, prostitutes who will also provide maid service and amateur therapy--but they don't want to pay for those things, they want them provided free, out of "love".

yes they're such bastards aren't they? would you like another cup of tea?


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:10 AM
horizontal rule
156

which even gswift makes a precondition for doing this.

Even dsquared made it a precondition, and I'm with Ogged in saying that I doubt [Nameless] could manage it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:10 AM
horizontal rule
157

I think people are being a bit dramatic about the impact on 'girl with a crush', mind. People still moping about a bit of not-very-good sex had with some arse in high-school when they are adults are people who need to get the fuck over it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
158

Don't worry about being a virgin when you get to college. Once you are there, you will have plenty of sex no matter what.

Fuck you, helpy-chalk. Opportunities for sex were more plentiful in high school. And with the girl I still pine for no less.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
159

People still moping about a bit of not-very-good sex had with some arse in high-school when they are adults are people who need to get the fuck over it.

Beware dangling modifiers when talking about sex with schoolkids.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
160

135: Seriously, the conversations I've had on this topic, it was just not the thing to ask "so, how much do you charge per night?" (That would have been crass!) I have no idea what the going rate is, and I assume it varies substantially by city.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
161

There's no shame in caring about social status, but you're an asshole if you fool yourself into thinking that you don't care about it and treat people badly as a result. Don't be an asshole.

Do you think this is the likeliest outcome? He's living in his own head, and sex is a powerful thing. I'd say that irrationally intense attachment is a much more likely result of his first time.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
162

Don't worry about being a virgin when you get to college. Once you are there, you will have plenty of sex no matter what

I haven't read anything else in this thread yet, but I do just want to chime in that this is completely false. I still don't know quite what it was, but the three years of undergrad were actually the period of my life since age 15 when I was having the least sex.

Also, AWB is right about some of us having a hard time showing compassion and decency to someone we sleep with if we don't necessarily find them attractive. This actually happened to me, on the one time I did get laid at Semi-Nerd U, when I slept with a friend who had a crush on me during a particularly depressing dry spell. I was a snippy little bitch to her for a good while after that due to my anger at "letting my standards slip", and the resulting social fallout took a couple terms to resolve. I was such an asshole in that situation, it was pretty terrible.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
163

There's nothing like sex advice to make World of Warcraft seem like a life-purpose.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
164

Some of the cliches old people are always repeating are cliches because they're true: I was nearly hysterical when I reached my 20th birthday without having lost it*; now, I don't know what I was on about. In retrospect, the idea that there must be something wrong with me because I was SO OLD when I finally lost it seems like the silliest thing ever. There was nothing at all wrong with me, I just hadn't gotten laid yet. In my case, confusion about my sexual orientation was the bulk of the problem, but it needn't be anything so dramatic. Not having found the right person is a perfectly good reason. Sleeping with this girl just because you don't want to go to college a virgin would be both pointless and shitty.

*Seriously, I remember taking solace in learning that Freud was 30 (or 36, I forget now).


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
165

161: yessss! welcome to the team!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
166

Hey, I've been on the team since 53.

Where are we drinking after the match?


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:17 AM
horizontal rule
167

157: The thing is, I don't care now about my awful college experiences. But I cared a lot at the time, and spent a lot of time thinking stupid "oh, if only I were funnier/smarter/prettier/more punk rock" then User-boy-on-whom-I-had-a-serious-crush would have actually dated me instead of just, er, using. I sure wouldn't mind have missed out on that, even though it's all water under the bridge now.

155: Hah. I used to live with a creepy example of the type, although it was a housemate situation rather than a romantic one, mercifully.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:17 AM
horizontal rule
168

Opportunities for sex were more plentiful in high school.

If you are smart, you can figure out the girls who are not-necessarily-so-popular in high school, but who will likely become smoking hot, amazing women in college.

Get on their good side early!

(Not necessarily referring to sex)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:18 AM
horizontal rule
169

Not having found the right person is a perfectly good reason.

Also, waiting for the right person is totally over-rated.*

* understandable, but over-rated.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:18 AM
horizontal rule
170

129: Sorry, Will, but *brutal honesty which I feel bad typing* I find you kind of dull.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:18 AM
horizontal rule
171

I am totally with LB's 101, except, of course, she isn't harsh enough.

But I've always found her *brutal honesty which I feel bad typing* kind of dull, so I've probably paid less attention to her, which was probably what made her interested, which is great except that... you know how it goes.

You've been avoiding the relationship thing by only wanting the unavailable chicks. She wants you; she must suck, eh?

I want so badly to say "Stop the giggling and the arm-touching, just casually name-drop P.G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman

You're just not that into girls, are you?

It was really weird - I kept getting this urge from some misogynist part of me, when I was writing this email, to attach a picture of her so I could get some "objective" validation. Effing subconscious. Now I'm thinking "The only way to really prove you're not influenced by their comments is to fuck her.

You aren't attracted to her. It doesn't matter whether other people are, you excessively dependent person. The eseence of what you're saying is that you think you could prove you aren't a misogynist (where the hell did that come from, anyways?) by being a deceptive dick to her, either before or after intercourse. So you're going to succeed by becoming a misogynist of sorts one way or another.

max
['Find somebody else, sheesh.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:19 AM
horizontal rule
172

Even dsquared made it a precondition, and I'm with Ogged in saying that I doubt [Nameless] could manage it.

Dsquared and I are the ones taking the true moral high ground by challenging this young man to become a better person, whereas the rest of you are just encouraging him to accept his shortcomings.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
173

Also, waiting for the right person is totally over-rated.*

This is strongly offset by the tendency for many teenagers to think that the first person they meet and really like is THE ONE.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
174

And now having started on this thread, I can say that I was not just agreeing with AWB in the second paragraph, but also LB, Frowner, and the rest of the sensible crew (also 'smasher).


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
175

On the practical level, I find this almost impossible to implement. Like it or not, I do look down on people who pay for sex and pity (it's an ugly emotion but might as well own up to it) sex workers. When I discovered a friend of mine was resorting to escorts for sex, I was happy to see him aggressively shamed, and I viscerally hate the idea of being a punter or being seen as one.

This topic has been beaten to death, but I feel the same way. If a friend told me that he had used a sex worker for sex, I would feel contempt for him.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
176

Go tell her that a guy who spends a good percentage of his time calling people "cunt" on the internet convinced you that the two of you should have sex. If she's still into it, it was meant to be.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:21 AM
horizontal rule
177

168: Ugh, yes. And vice versa. I think my HS classmates were quite good about this, and lots of us smartypants kids developed close friendships outside the "popular" circle, in such an intense way that several cheerleader/football types were always trying to hang out with us. (Yes, of course, we let them.) But none of us dated one another, and most of us went to college as virgins.

At the time, it sucked to feel so neutered by one's friend group, but we did a lot of strip poker, random making-out, etc. I went to college fully prepared to love up some nerdboys.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:22 AM
horizontal rule
178

If you are smart, you can figure out the girls who are not-necessarily-so-popular in high school, but who will likely become smoking hot, amazing women in college.

I'm familiar with the penny-stock dating strategy.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:23 AM
horizontal rule
179

I'm familiar with the penny-stock dating strategy.

It's refuted by the random walk of shame.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
180

re: 176

Yeah, but that's just dsquared's honesty coming through. It's those Brits here who don't use the word 'cunt' all the time that are being deceptive. I swear like a bastard off-line.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
181

I assume everyone has said something along the lines of "No. Wait for someone you're mildly interested in."

That said, I have no idea who P.G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman. And I got laid in high school.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
182

I think people are being a bit dramatic about the impact on 'girl with a crush', mind. People still moping about a bit of not-very-good sex had with some arse in high-school when they are adults are people who need to get the fuck over it.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but this sounds alot like, "Go ahead and treat her badly because everybody gets treated badly at some point in life and we eventually get over it." Just because it may not scar the girl for life doesn't mean it's a decent thing to do.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
183

171 is good.

There are all kinds of valid motives and situations for sex. We're saying this isn't one of them. The guy knows this, but he's afraid of being a chump.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
184

That said, I have no idea who P.G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman. And I got laid in high school.

Then surely you know who Douglas Adams is. Or Alan Moore? Gary Gigax? Anyone?!


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
185

Dsquared is a happily married man with a kiddy he dotes on, and he's just trolling.

Non-presidentially: but I think some sort of courtesan / prostitution arrangement is best for someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't feel willing or able to give what is normally expected in normal relationships. It's better than bending yourself all out of shape while trying unsuccessfully to make someone happy. I know that the songs tell us that there's a perfect person somewhere in the world for every one of us, but maybe there isn't. In specific, maybe there's no one in the world for which a we are the perfect person. Prostitution is one of the various second-bests.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:30 AM
horizontal rule
186

re: 182

Did I say it was a decent thing to do? I'm not part of dsquared's team on this one. I just think there's way too much whining about the 'trauma' of shit that isn't that traumatic. Having sex with people whose main motivation is that they just want to have sex doesn't really rank up there among life's horrible events.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:30 AM
horizontal rule
187

but we did a lot of strip poker, random making-out, etc.

I think AWB's high school reunions will be much more interesting than mine.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:30 AM
horizontal rule
188

172 is, of course, correct. I amend my advice: don't sleep with this woman until you develop some respect for both her and yourself, in order to avoid becoming the person Max talks about in 171 and the situation PoMo describes:

I slept with a friend who had a crush on me during a particularly depressing dry spell. I was a snippy little bitch to her for a good while after that due to my anger at "letting my standards slip", and the resulting social fallout took a couple terms to resolve. I was such an asshole in that situation, it was pretty terrible.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
189

Then surely you know who Douglas Adams is. Or Alan Moore? Gary Gigax? Anyone?!

Hmm. Were they on the MTV?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
190

British motherfuckers talk funny.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
191

It's those Brits here who don't use the word 'cunt' all the time that are being deceptive. I swear like a bastard off-line.

The UK is much better for swearing. Over here everyone gets all in a twitter about "fuck" and "cunt" being used in public, but those hard consonants are satisfying.

I swear a lot. Inherited from my dad, who as my grandmother tells it, swore so much even as a kid that some of the mothers in the neighborhood forbade their kids from playing with him.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
192

In the end, I think the most important lesson may be the one mentioned by Bitch & Cala (and perhaps others).

Do not abuse her feelings.

Now is a great time to learn how to treat someone with honesty and respect.

Do not have sex with her if she is under the pretense that you will now date her. If she thinks this is the start of something, walk away.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
193

187: I will find out in two weeks!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
194

184: I'm pretty sure that "knowing who Gary Gygax is" = "didn't get laid in high school".


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
195

186: So, your saying it's not a decent thing to do, but if he does, no biggie? I'm honestly just not following.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
196

186: And yet, due to some kind of bizarre false consciousness, people who have sex with someone who had contempt for them persist in being unhappy! False consciousness--no longer a permissable argument for marxism, but completely acceptable when talking about other people's sexual experiences!


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
197

I think he is saying that if they both are on the same page, then it is ok.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:34 AM
horizontal rule
198

189: it's amazing you ever had sex at all.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:34 AM
horizontal rule
199

I think some sort of courtesan / prostitution arrangement is best for someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't feel willing or able to give what is normally expected in normal relationships.

What's wrong with Mr. Right Hand?

Since John's being non-presidential, I'll say under my own pseud that I've (once) been on the other side of such an exchange. It wasn't the worst experience of my life, but it did make me a lot less blithe about the argument that sex work is work like any other, and we should simply treat it as such.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
200

194: "knowing" s/b "caring"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
201

I'm mostly agreeing with Di in 182.

Per this: I just think there's way too much whining about the 'trauma' of shit that isn't that traumatic.

Are US/UK differences in cultural context for sex one factor here? I mean, it it possible that the cultural script/norms that affect how people think of themselves and feel about themselves mean that a lousy experience with hs sex is going to reverberate more for an American kid than a UK one?

Regardless, I can't bring myself to believe this would be a large factor. Still...?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
202

Mr. Right Hand is not jealous, but there's something to be said for a more physical relationship.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
203

it's amazing you ever had sex at all.

You mean, it's amazing I never didn't was having sex. At all.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:37 AM
horizontal rule
204

And yet, due to some kind of bizarre false consciousness, people who have sex with someone who had contempt for them persist in being unhappy!

but not very unhappy, and not for very long.

come on, ttaM, join the team! as our Beckham-figure, gswift says, the point is that he ought to make an effort to sort his personality out and get laid. everyone else is saying "well, your fucking personality is fucked, so you might as well not get laid, in the hope that your personality will change at some future date in the future. or possibly you should deprive yourself of sex as a punishment for being a jerk or something". Choose optimism!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:39 AM
horizontal rule
205

203: Heebie was always already having sex.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:41 AM
horizontal rule
206

I also still have not given up on the point that the simple act of having sex, and the rush of happiness and gratitude that it will bring, will in and of itself do wonders for helping the young chap grow up.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:41 AM
horizontal rule
207

201: Could, er, gender be a factor? That is, lousy HS sex might not be too upsetting for your average guy--since after all, there's a strong Yay! I Had Sex In HS! script. But at least in my young day, sex was coded a bit differently for girls and bad HS sex might thus be more traumatic.

Today's fast young girls may be different, I admit.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:41 AM
horizontal rule
208

come on, ttaM, join the team! as our Beckham-figure, gswift says, the point is that he ought to make an effort to sort his personality out and get laid. everyone else is saying "well, your fucking personality is fucked, so you might as well not get laid, in the hope that your personality will change at some future date in the future. or possibly you should deprive yourself of sex as a punishment for being a jerk or something". Choose optimism!

I would have thought dsquared would be arguing for a market approach. Let the market sort it out and correct naturally. If he is a jerk, he will not get laid. If she gets hurt, she will learn not to have sex with people who hold her in contempt.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
209

but not very unhappy, and not for very long

Yeah, I don't know that you can really say this with great certainty. [insert what Witt said about self-image and sexuality here]


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
210

Man, there's something just so satisfying about having all my prejudices about men who work in the financial sector confirmed.

Hey!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
211

@204: for all his immaturity and in-his-headedness, the kid does have a glimmer that it's not all about him.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
212

re: 195

I'm making no comment at all about his actions.
re: 196

When did I say fuck all about false consciousness? I completely accept people feel a certain way about these kinds of events. I'm not denying their feelings are real.

I'm just saying that some responses to these kinds of life events look like an over-reaction*. And if that comes across as judgemental, well, it is.

* and I'd hold my hand up to doing exactly this myself too at various past points.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
213

207: I would have been pretty YAY! about it, but it would have been a lot more annoying having to sneak around, try not to get found out by parents, worry about gossipy people, and all that. At least in college you get a little twin bed to yourself.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
214

201: The UK got over the 19th century idea that boys should do all the asking and girls should wait to be asked, and not get drunk in bars. We haven't yet.

On preview, what Frowner's saying in 207: sex in the US is still coded differently for girls. At least as far as the guys are concerned.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:44 AM
horizontal rule
215

204: We've sort of reached an impasse here, haven't we? Really, all I can return is "among the women I know, etc". Clearly, some sort of survey is needed. Perhaps we could get a grant--it would be interdisciplinary and inter-institutional, and probably attract a lot of media attention if we reached splashy enough conclusions.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:44 AM
horizontal rule
216

If she gets hurt

that's going to happen anyway, by the way. Team Oh No That Would Be Awful already want him to have a frank conversation with her where he says "oh by the way, I find you boring and ugly, you've been humiliating yourself and wasting your time chasing after me for the last two years", just as soon as they can think of a nice way to break this poor girl's heart. It's only Team AaaaaGFI, the team of life! that are trying to look for win-wins.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:44 AM
horizontal rule
217

Also, dude: when you do have sex with her, and I figure you probably will regardless, use a condom.


Posted by: Counterfly | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:45 AM
horizontal rule
218

I'd think the fact that she is asking for sex absent an actual relationship signals that, mostly, she just wants to have sex.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:45 AM
horizontal rule
219

214: Wait, so now you're saying girls should get drunk in bars? Man, I so cannot keep up.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:46 AM
horizontal rule
220

218 also has a point.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:46 AM
horizontal rule
221

re: 219

Sure, how else do you think we can lure them back to our shagtastic pads?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
222

219: I've always been pro-getting drunk in bars. I think girls oughta pursue recreational sex same as boys, and that everyone should lighten the fuck up. But I'm in the minority on that opinion.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
223

218: Seriously? A high school girl who is the wallflower of her set? Might could be, but if so then high school has changed a hell of a lot since I attended. Honestly, I only know two women now who seek men out because they "just want to have sex". This in a large social circle of reasonably-confident adults.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:48 AM
horizontal rule
224

I'd think the fact that she is asking for sex absent an actual relationship signals that, mostly, she just wants to have sex.

No. It does not mean that. Not even close.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:48 AM
horizontal rule
225

I'm just saying that some responses to these kinds of life events look like an over-reaction*. And if that comes across as judgemental, well, it is.

Well, I think this sort of judgmentalism kind of sucks, actually, and is rather usefully employed to justify engaging in hurtful behavior because, hey, she's overreacting by being upset.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:49 AM
horizontal rule
226

by the way, I'm repeating my #216 by citation, because it's important - you need to think of the marginal harm and ill-feeling this lass is going to experience, over and above the harm to her self-esteem caused by the problem that LB identified in #40 and nobody answered because there's no answer to it. Your counterfactual is not a happy, healthy Ms Second Best skipping off to college with her world intact because she never had sex with a bastard; it's M2B still weeping into her pillow, but this time it's because she got turned down by said bastard.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:49 AM
horizontal rule
227

And to carry on from 223, "just wanting to have sex" is not the default for women (in the US, at least). If this is going to be a just-sex arrangement, it would be best to discuss that up front, and I'm not sure how to do that absent the "I'm not actually attracted to you, but..." conversation.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:49 AM
horizontal rule
228

225: Ttam, of all people, is not saying "get over it, bitch." What he's saying is that women aren't delicate flowers who will wither and die if they have bad sex. Which is true. (See also 222.)


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
229

In the long run, I think giving into this girl's wonton lust is probably a good thing, assuming our correspondent isn't a dick about it and is just expressing anxiety about potential dickery to us. OTOH, if said dickery has the potential to manifest itself either in the expression of lust (which, shall we be honest?, it has been known to do) or in the treatment of her afterwards, not going through with it is good.

I'm slightly convinced by the argument that Team AaaaaaGFI makes that doing it with this chick may be, indeed, (a) what she wants, and (b) an incentive to our correspondent to lighten the fuck up already.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
230

absent the "I'm not actually attracted to you, but..." conversation

hey! no "absenting" that conversation! It is (apart from gswift's killer free kicks) Team Aaaaaah Go For It's secret weapon!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:51 AM
horizontal rule
231

I'm just saying that some responses to these kinds of life events look like an over-reaction*. And if that comes across as judgemental, well, it is.

See, this just doesn't seem useful to me. What does one do, go up to one's miserable friend and say "Hey, you're over-reacting. At least he fucked you; he could always have turned you down. And besides, there are children starving in Africa."


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:51 AM
horizontal rule
232

giving into this girl's wonton lust

Take her out for Chinese food!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:51 AM
horizontal rule
233

Also, dude: when you do have sex with her, and I figure you probably will regardless, use a condom.

Oh come on. I personally can't wait for the follow-up "Ask the Mineshaft": "I had sex with this girl I didn't really like because I just wanted to lose my virginity before I went to college, and now she's pregnant and her parents want us to get married..."


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
234

181: holy fuck, heebie-geebie, go read some PG Wodehouse!! this is, like, a send-Brock-to-the-doctor type of situation. 20cc of Mulliner's Buck-U-Uppo, STAT!!!

also, having perused the thread, I think that sweet-talking welshman may have won me over to TAaaaaGFI.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
235

221: Fair enough. I do find that a little inebriation dramatically increases the attractiveness of a good many men.

222: I do not disagree.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
236

231: But it is useful, inasmuch as if we internalized that we might stop warning girls that all boys want is to get into their pants, that they should wait until they really love someone, that their sexual desires are dangerous and will lead to heartbreak, and all the other fucked up messages about fragile femininity we still perpetuate.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
237

229: wanton, Jesus fuck Christ.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
238

157 et. seq.:

Oh, sure. The 'being a shit' we're talking about is stuff that most of us have probably either done, or done worse than, or had the same or worse done to us. (I'd be both on the done worse than, and on the had worse done to me bench.) No one's going to die of a broken heart, or shame, or anything else here.

But if you can avoid being a shit, why not take the opportunity?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
239

199: is this the first time you've let on about the resolution of that story on your blog?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:54 AM
horizontal rule
240

237: I'm taking my houseguest out for dumplings later, so...


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:55 AM
horizontal rule
241

But if you can avoid being a shit, why not take the opportunity?

your #40 suggests that he can't.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:55 AM
horizontal rule
242

239: Under my "real" pseud, yes.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
243

What he's saying is that women aren't delicate flowers who will wither and die if they have bad sex.

Well, he's also saying -- unless I'm totally misreading -- that any woman who is a bit of a delicate flower is "overacting."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
244

the fact that she is asking for sex absent an actual relationship signals that, mostly, she just wants to have sex.

She isn't asking for sex. She's "giggling and the arm-touching". She might be planning on entering college a virgin, for all we know.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
245

British motherfuckers do not understand out ancient customs. I say stone 'em.

That's going to happen anyway, by the way.

A very popular justification for almost anything.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
246

re: 225

No. I disagree. I don't think it justifies hurtful behaviour at all. I'm a judgemental prick about people behaving hurtfully, too.

I'm just saying that there are some situations where the right way to think about that situation is 'get over it, it's not the end of the world' rather than 'oh my god, that must have been so terrible for you'. It just is. And I'm placing myself firmly in the category of people who could have really benefited from that at some point in the past.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to say to someone's face. In some situations it's a total failure of empathy.

But when having a meta-discussion about such situations? On the internet? Fuck yeah. There's nothing wrong with saying that sometimes people over-react and that these so-called 'bad' events aren't really that bad.

And (on preview) what BPhD said in 228 and 236.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
247
That's going to happen anyway, by the way
A very popular justification for almost anything

Ubiquitous because valid. This is the bedrock of (yet another) great unwritten post on "Why I Am Not Not An Economist"


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
248

242: And I do not want to talk about it further, btw.

243: Well yes; there are people who are really sensitive about this stuff, both boys and girls. And one shouldn't be cavalier about that. But I think that developing a (healthy, non-misogynist) sense of humor about the whole thing is, on balance, hugely beneficial, and that doing so would be enormously beneficial in undercutting the idea that it's mostly women who are likely to feel this way--it's not.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
249

She isn't asking for sex. She's "giggling and the arm-touching".

Actually, she's "flirting/touching/asking me over to her empty house on various pretences for a long time..."

A true player on the team of life would step up to the occasion.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
250

If the kid is interested in growing up, an honest conversation about expectations will do a lot more good than a shag. But take heart, Team AaaGFI: it may also lead to a shag.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
251

an honest conversation about expectations will do a lot more good than a shag

keep saying it and it might come true.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:02 AM
horizontal rule
252

One thing is that this guy is obviously pretty tightly wound up himself, so that the chances that he will be able to be opleasant or relaxed or tactful or considerate throughout the brief relationship are pretty low. It's not just that she has self-esteem problems or whatever, but that he has negative feelings about her which he probably will end up expressing at the worst time.

Also, he and his friends are gay.

Gay! Gay! Gay! That should show him!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
253

that their sexual desires are dangerous

But, B. Our sexual desires are dangerous. You say that like it's a bad thing.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:04 AM
horizontal rule
254

226: by the way, I'm repeating my #216 by citation, because it's important - you need to think of the marginal harm and ill-feeling this lass is going to experience, over and above the harm to her self-esteem caused by the problem that LB identified in #40 and nobody answered because there's no answer to it. Your counterfactual is not a happy, healthy Ms Second Best skipping off to college with her world intact because she never had sex with a bastard; it's M2B still weeping into her pillow, but this time it's because she got turned down by said bastard.

You know, this isn't nuts -- there's a real argument here. But not being a jerk in this context is, IMO, a virtuoso move. PoMo's reaction, where he turns into a nasty snippy little bitch because he's mad at himself for having sex with someone he doesn't think much of, is a hell of a lot commoner. If I thought the guy who wrote that letter had the internal/social resources to have sex with her in a random, frolicsome, everyone leaves happy kind of way, I'd be all for it.

And on the 118, maybe she just wants to get laid and isn't looking for anything serious, point: no. Generally, in these conversations, I'm one of the people arguing for women's capacity to be motivated by meaningless lust rather than by true love, and I'm sure she's got a fair amount of meaningless lust going on, and [Nameless] isn't the one love of her life. But from the situation described, she's looking for a boyfriend, and a one-off 'I'll fuck you, but don't expect anything affectionate or repeated' is not going to be a happy experience.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
255

If the kid is interested in growing up, an honest conversation about expectations will do a lot more good than a shag. But take heart, Team AaaGFI: it may also lead to a shag.

Absolutely. It might come as a shock to this kid, but some women actually make the educated decision to have sex.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
256

keep saying it and it might come true.

Hey, it took me years to learn that. I'm just sharing wisdom here.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:06 AM
horizontal rule
257

That cite to 118 should have been to 218.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:07 AM
horizontal rule
258

But I think that developing a (healthy, non-misogynist) sense of humor about the whole thing is, on balance, hugely beneficial, and that doing so would be enormously beneficial in undercutting the idea that it's mostly women who are likely to feel this way--it's not

This is good, and it's what's been underlying my consistent opposition to his doing it. Yes, he should lighten up, and she might be way ahead of him about how to take it.

Still, if he feels this way, he shouldn't do it. He might lighten up by having sex with her, and finding how different everything, including her reaction is from what he supposed, but he can lighten up without too.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:08 AM
horizontal rule
259

Also, I like the idea that Unfogged should be restricted to people who have &mdash or at least have had &mdash sex, plus people with no realistic expectation of having sex. Basically leaves the Mineshaft intact while letting youngsters experience disillusionment on their own.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
260

Actually fuck it. The rest of Team AaaaaGFI can carry on without me. I have reread the letter and now realise on a profound level how much:

Stop the giggling and the arm-touching, just casually name-drop P.G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman in a conversation, watch how quickly the pants come off

irritated me first time round. I am now on Team Cut Your Penis Off.

If this kid thinks he can grow up, he gets laid. If not, not. I am now off to meet my mum in the pub.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
261

259: Sex with typography is still one of our great cultural taboos, and with good reason.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
262

259: And what are your proposals for enforcement of this policy? Unprintable, I suppose.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
263

But from the situation described, she's looking for a boyfriend, and a one-off 'I'll fuck you, but don't expect anything affectionate or repeated' is not going to be a happy experience.

The best thing you can learn in high school isnt how to have sex, it is learning how to discuss whether you should have sex with someone.

Good communications skills not only help you avoid hurting other people's feelings. Those same skills help you get laid.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:13 AM
horizontal rule
264

Welcome to the team, dsquared.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
265

women's capacity to be motivated by meaningless lust rather than by true love

The problem with high school girls is that yes, they are super hormonally-charged and want to get freaky. They also want boys to like them and be their boyfriend. Unfortunately, these two desires are often directed at the same dudes, rather than two different groups of dudes.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
266

260: If this kid thinks he can grow up, he gets laid. If not, not.

I'd accept that and call it comity.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
267

Also, the M-dash is an abomination upon the face of the Earth. There's no rational reason anyone would need more than an n-dash.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
268

As someone who has been on, like, all three ends of this situation, I feel like I should have a lot to say, but I think it comes down to:

Nobody trolls like dsquared.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
269

PS - I know it's not really trolling, but the tone is pitch-perfect.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
270

Unprintable, I suppose.

Unthinkable, more like it.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
271

But from the situation described, she's looking for a boyfriend, and a one-off 'I'll fuck you, but don't expect anything affectionate or repeated' is not going to be a happy experience.

Let's say she's looking for a BF. He's been hanging around this chick for years already. So he buys her coffee when they're hanging out, goes to a few movies, and all the while gets ridden like a rodeo pony. He can gut out this horror of a situation for at least a month or two, then nicely tell her he'd rather be just friends. If he plays it right, maybe it'll help him transition to one of her friends that he's more interested in.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
272

266: w-lfs-n is totally going to beat you up after school, Tom.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
273

I think we don't have enough info to know whether she thinks "and then he'd be my boyfriend!" or whether their gang has this hook-up culture we hear so much about among the younger set. LB is probably right that it's the former, though.

It occurs to me however that if he's going to do it... they should do it on at least two occasions minimum. IME nothing more annoys/bewilders women, including those into casual sex, than somebody who only wants to sleep with them once. Plus, the first time could be unimpressive and/or painful (depending on whether it's her first too) and a rematch could be called for.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
274

Good communications skills not only help you avoid hurting other people's feelings. Those same skills help you get laid.

Will and I are forming our own team.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
275

271: That falls under the "if he thinks he can grow up" exception. Sure, if he behaves reasonably decently, no explicit or implied promises he's not going to keep, reasonable levels of courtesy and kindness both in front of her and behind her back, not a problem. That just doesn't sound likely from the letter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
276

or, what gswift said.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
277

I don't think it's trolling, because there are serious arguments to be made on the other side, which a lot of us acknowledged.

I'm inclined to think claiming that the poor can just go to emergency rooms is trolling, but maybe that's just my beliefs.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
278

Also, waiting for the right person is totally over-rated.*

Certainly true; I just meant the right person, not the Right Person. As in, somebody you don't have contempt for, who's willing.

After reading the last several comments, I think it's a good point that worrying too much about the consequences for the girl doesn't get you anywhere, b/c we don't know much at all about where she's coming from. It seems sufficient to me simply to consider the consequences for this boy: in the long term, losing his virginity later rather than sooner is not something he'll regret; fucking some girl he wouldn't otherwise just to get there sooner is not a decision he'll be proud of.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:22 AM
horizontal rule
279

I've read the whole thread, and I'm still not clear: do we have any idea whether this girl is a virgin or not? Doesn't this make a huge difference? I mean, no, the guy shouldn't be a dick regardless, but being a dick to someone who's just lost her virginity is a hell of a lot worse than being a dick when you're like #4 on a list that will eventually grow to 20 or 30.

My overall takeaway from life so far is that, while there's no special virtue in losing virginity early, sooner is better. My falsely high valuation of sex in general and virginity in particular cost me sex with at least 3 separate women, 2 of which I'm certain would have been worthwhile.

OTOH, losing my virginity (in college) to a girl who in some ways meets this girl's profile led to a disastrous 6 year relationship, the only merit of which is that it spit me up on the shore of my current love.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
280

fucking some girl he wouldn't otherwise just to get there sooner is not a decision he'll be proud of.

Well, yeah. I mean really, if he doesn't actually want to other than to lose his virginity, there's no question at all. Wait for someone you like.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
281

I am reminded of the scene in "Animal House" when Pinto (Tom Hulce) is confronted with the just passed out underage daughter of the Mayor. "Fuck her brains out" says the devil on his shoulder. "You'll never forgive yourself" says the angel on the other. "Homo" replies the devil. He then brings her home in a shopping cart, unspoiled.

Dude, you have to live in your own head. It isn't a race, but after all it's just sex.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
282

I'd think the fact that she is asking for sex absent an actual relationship signals that, mostly, she just wants to have sex.

But she isn't asking for sex. (And if she were, and everyone was clear about it, I'd say go for it.) She's touching his arm, and and flirting, giggling around him, and trying to get him to come over when her parents aren't home, which means she's interested in starting something and wants to get physical (physical!) But I'd be willing to bet if he goes over there and has sex with her, she's going to think he's her boyfriend, especially since they've been friends (or at least she thinks they have) for a while. Even more fun if she was just thinking maybe they'd make out a little bit.

It won't be the worst thing in the world for her to be used for sex by someone who doesn't like her. But it's still a pretty dickish thing to do.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:30 AM
horizontal rule
283

272 - just to elaborate, the n-dash is the ideal – some would say, perfectly-formed – punctuation mark for its purpose. Space-ndash-space and we've got a nice little interpolation, well-signalled. The m-dash, by contrast, either is mashing up against the words it's been stuck between (like—this) or else hogs up all the space on the page, if you use a space-mdash-space construction. It's the big, ugly, space-hogging SUV of punctuation; absolutely unnecessary and unsightly to the trained eye.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:30 AM
horizontal rule
284

losing his virginity later rather than sooner is not something he'll regret

Well, but see 279. As long as skipping this girl (and there are good reasons to do so) doesn't lead to endless second-guessing, that's fine. But let's not set up an artificially high bar for what will end up being a pretty minor event. Two of the three events I mentioned in 279 happened less than 6 months before I ended up losing my virginity anyway. So just stupidly wasted opportunities, but I didn't want to make any Big Mistakes.

Ogden Nash would have seen this.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:31 AM
horizontal rule
285

FWIW, I think Tom's exactly right about the m-dash. I use it only to appease blog management.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:33 AM
horizontal rule
286

Well, yeah. I mean really, if he doesn't actually want to other than to lose his virginity, there's no question at all. Wait for someone you like.

This is the key takeaway. Getting laid only for the sake of getting laid is a bad idea. The one reason I ended up being a shameful asshole to the poor girl in my past was that I was not attracted to her and only wanted to get laid in order to break my dry spell. Totally not worth it. There will be someone you're at least somewhat attracted to in the not-too-distant future, there are shitloads of them out there.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
287

284, 279: while there's no special virtue in losing virginity early, sooner is better

Yeah, I actually agree with this. Even though my horror at being a 20yo virgin seems laughable now, I can still say I wish I'd lost it sooner. But what I'm really wishing for there is that I was a different kind of person in a different set of circumstances then, and that kind of wishing isn't worth much.

Losing your mind for your first piece of ass is a common enough experience (and imo, kind of sweet where it isn't destructive) but I wonder if your unfortunate 6 years would really have been prevented by the kind of experience this kid is asking about?


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:39 AM
horizontal rule
288

Em dashes are great when they're properly typeset, with a hairline space on either side. Proper typesetting is a casualty of the digital age, which of course provides other compensations - like 300+ comments telling a teenager not to have sex.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
289

After interesting dissonant passages, the main theme returns in a major key. Resolution.

But which will we remember, will make us think?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
290

Oh sodding fuck. This basically comes down to the prime directive; don't be such a cunt about it.

He needs to make a decision; either a) forget about her, but in the name of all that's holy, don't try to convince yourself you didn't do it because you're a saint - that way a lifetime of dickishness (and regret...mmm, tortured regret) lies, or b) shag her, but for christ's sake drop the sodding Wodehouse (REALLY!)/Gaiman (WORSE STILL!) crap, and don't be a bastard in any signal way before, during or afterwards.

We are dealing with an adolescent male (who writes annoying letters) here - so frankly, what are the chances of him abstaining and not developing a gigantic and repulsive ego-horn as a result?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
291

there's no special virtue in losing virginity early, sooner is better

Everyone's agreeing with this? I had multiple opportunities to lose my virginity before I did, and I don't regret passing up any of them. When I did have sex, it was with a guy who I really really liked and he really really liked me, and it was great. He wasn't the love of my life, but we dated for a while and I have fond memories of that first time. So.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
292

Whatever the case, don't lead her on. Making a decision either way is a good thing, as long as it's not "stringing this girl along is good for my ego."

Bave, I got a 15-pass to the Baths last night, and am now permanently in love with the platza guy. No, I didn't get one, but am in love nevertheless.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
293

Anecdote: I haven't been in high school for a while, but my sister has, and the default seems to be that if a couple is at all physical, they've moved past the friend zone into the boyfriend-girlfriend or at least we-need-to-talk zone. And the couples don't start their first date by sleeping together. The whole sleep-together-then-figure-out-if-we're-serious game seems to start a few years later.

I don't know if that's the case at this kid's high school, but I'm guessing that if casual sex were plentiful and common, he wouldn't be wondering about whether he needed to lose his virginity bad enough to lose it to a girl he really didn't like.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
294

Wonton lust! Don't reverse yourself, AWB! He is a mere wonton on the chopsticks of her arousal... or, you know. Something.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:50 AM
horizontal rule
295

Erm, quick amendment to say that if this girl really is a friend of yours (and not just some friend of your friends who you tolerate while she's around), there probably is something attractive about her. One of the key questions I ask myself when I consider a potential partner these days is "On the next day, when you sit down for a delicious breakfast, will you be able to make it through a whole meal with conversation without horrendous awkwardness or wondering what the hell you were thinking?". If the answer is "no", then that's the warning sign that I couldn't even take them as a friend or there's nothing close to physical attraction there, and it's just not worth it*.


* Exceptions made for the grudge-fucks that have already been mentioned by DS, but you should probably find that person really hot even though you hate their guts for the disturbing magic to happen.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
296

It's the spicy sauce of the wonton of love.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
297

294: My humiliation is eternal and deep, DS.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
298

Dude, when did not being a shit turn into congratulating himself on being a saint? Not having sex with the girl, if he (a) doesn't really want to and (b) can't rely on himself to not be an asshole about it (which under the described circumstances I'm guessing he can't), isn't giving something up because he's just so decent he glows in the dark, it's avoiding spending the last half of his senior year slinking around being embarrassed and with his female friends that he actually likes pissed off at him (which, [Nameless]? will happen if you're mean to this girl). He's not being noble, unless not shoving your face in a lawnmower is noble.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:53 AM
horizontal rule
299

That was to 290.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:53 AM
horizontal rule
300

while there's no special virtue in losing virginity early, sooner is better

Oh, give me a break. Some of us should have done it a whole lot sooner. Some of us should have waited a whole lot longer. Some of us did it at just the right time with just the right person and are exceedingly well-adjusted as a result. There's no universal correct answer to when is the right time. Doing it because you think you should or not doing it because you think you shouldn't, though, is just a mess if should or shouldn't is based on something other than what you honestly feel is right for you and the other person involved. Including especially should or shouldn't based on what a bunch of pseudonymous schmoes think.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:54 AM
horizontal rule
301

I wonder if your unfortunate 6 years would really have been prevented by the kind of experience this kid is asking about?

Well Christ, if some damn butterfly in the Amazon is going to change things....

In purely practical terms, sex earlier would probably have headed off the bad relationship entirely, but even aside from that, I had trouble dealing with (and getting out of) that relationship because I just wasn't very experienced - this was only the 5th girl I'd kissed (I spent 3.5 yrs with my HS GF). But I was overvaluing everything, and petrified of "being a dick" to this woman, when I should have just walked away w/in the first 6 months. My self-image as a "nice guy" kept dragging me back in (she would mock me for this, BTW, while manipulating it - she was really fucked up). Someone (will? gswift?) even talked about this upthread - get out of your own head, and your own self-image.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
302

Don't have sex with her to lose your virginity; have sex with her because you feel sorry for her. Explain this to her. Use the phrase "pity-fuck".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
303

There's no universal correct answer to when is the right time.

When you meet me is the right time.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
304

The night time is the right time.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:56 AM
horizontal rule
305

Now I'm picturing Rudy Huxtable belting out "BAY-BEEE!"


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:57 AM
horizontal rule
306

Bave, I got a 15-pass to the Baths last night

Excellent. But I think maybe that puts you on the opposite schedule from my pass. That would be terrible, for me at least.

Also, why is everyone so terrified of platzas? I've had one, and I got scared on the Wonder Wheel.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:57 AM
horizontal rule
307

304: And yet, don't dismiss afternoon delights.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:00 AM
horizontal rule
308

306: I made a promise to the guy that I'd do it next time. I hadn't shaved in a few days and now that I'm in love with him, I want it to be special the first time.

Any time you want to go on the red weeks with me, we can use my pass together, and we'll use your pass to go on black weeks. No crisis!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:00 AM
horizontal rule
309

You really have to wonder if [Nameless] is lurking, or if he's going to hit the whole thread all at once. I envision an entirely reinvigorated and abusive thread if and when he shows up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:00 AM
horizontal rule
310

But I was overvaluing everything, and petrified of "being a dick"

That's a neat expression of what I've been trying to say lately about where some guys' apparently-oblivious non-reactions come from.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:02 AM
horizontal rule
311

Any time you want to go on the red weeks with me, we can use my pass together, and we'll use your pass to go on black weeks. No crisis!

You're so smart. Did you study, like, math, or something?


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:03 AM
horizontal rule
312

now that I'm in love with him, I want it to be special the first time

First time always sucks. You should have done it when you were 15 to get it over with.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:04 AM
horizontal rule
313

291: M. Leblanc is an outlier and should be ejected from the sample, by force if necessary.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:05 AM
horizontal rule
314

Man, I'm glad I got in with the bad advice early. Undersexed, overcommented.

My first time was awesome all around. Too bad none of you had me or IDP as your first, you would've been on cloud 9.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:06 AM
horizontal rule
315
while there's no special virtue in losing virginity early, sooner is better

Oh, give me a break. Some of us should have done it a whole lot sooner. Some of us should have waited a whole lot longer. Some of us did it at just the right time with just the right person and are exceedingly well-adjusted as a result. There's no universal correct answer to when is the right time.

Well duh. But we're in a society that artificially elevates waiting (while pop culture promotes the opposite, but a lot of people define themselves against this), and I was talking against the presumption in favor of waiting. If someone's 14 and over-eager, I'd try to talk him/her down, but otherwise, jump on in, the water's fine.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:06 AM
horizontal rule
316

A certain number of the foolish things that I did in my youth were necessary in order to learn that they were foolish. To the extent that I delayed them, I just did dumb things later.

Then again, asking the Mineshaft is an option we didn't have back in the day.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
317

M. Leblanc is an outlier and should be ejected from the sample, by force if necessary.

Dude, she'll totally yell at us in the street. Just let her walk by, man.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
318

First time always sucks

Glad to be getting some support, but I don't understand the need for this to be universal. Why isn't "sucked for me, sucks for most people" good enough? What's irritating about the denial of its universality?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
319

If someone's 14 and over-eager, I'd try to talk him/her down

"Hey, hey, hey, I'm your uncle. We should really wait a year or two."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
320

My first time was awesome all around.

This was the stupidest thing about it all: after all that waiting and over-valuing, my actual thought process at the moment was, and I quote, "What the hell." She didn't even realize I was a virgin. Unremarkable experience.

And yet still not "terrible," "awful," "shitty," or any of these other descriptors of first sex.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:12 AM
horizontal rule
321

Okay, I have completely changed my mind after a day of hearing students whinge about their recently-posted grades, complain about the professor (who is a perfectly charming fellow, but who explained to me that here, at Adequate Midwestern University, this exam represents the first non-A grade for many of these students) and talk about the Unfairness Of It All. These people should have suffered more earlier, and any old kind of suffering would have done.

So, okay, letter-writing guy, go ahead. Do as thou wilt, particularly if you're from an upper-middle class but uncultured background. Maybe, in fact, you should actually have the "And you're homely and dull" conversation right after you have sex.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
322

320: see, my first thought was "wow! It's all I'd been hoping it would be!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
323

the simple act of having sex, and the rush of happiness and gratitude that it will bring

ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE

I think girls oughta pursue recreational sex same as boys, and that everyone should lighten the fuck up.

I have no idea how someone can say this and also be opposed on principle to all sex work, even in theory.

But it is useful, inasmuch as if we internalized that we might stop warning girls that all boys want is to get into their pants, that they should wait until they really love someone, that their sexual desires are dangerous and will lead to heartbreak, and all the other fucked up messages about fragile femininity we still perpetuate.

Maybe messages like that are valuble for both girls and boys. I would have been more happy getting some messages like that than the "Obviously you'll want to have sex with anything on two legs, because why wouldn't you?" messages I was receiving.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
324

A certain number of the foolish things that I did in my youth were necessary in order to learn that they were foolish. To the extent that I delayed them, I just did dumb things later.

Absolutely. The best time in your life to do foolish things is in the last year of high school, presuming that you are of the demographic that goes away to college shortly thereafter and won't see those people again.

As long as your foolish things don't hurt others.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
325

I'm glad I got in with the bad advice early.

Now, come on. Comment 3 was excellent advice.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
326

323 should read:

Maybe messages like that are valuble for both girls and boys. I would have been more happy getting some messages like that in addition to the "Obviously you'll want to have sex with anything on two legs, because why wouldn't you?" messages I was receiving. And probably vice versa for girls.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
327

IDP, perhaps part of the vehemence of the 'your first time will suck' reaction is a result of nearly every pop culture depiction* of first-time sex being of two thin beautiful people, tenderly in love, smoothly making love** that results in a simultaneous orgasm. Or, alternatively, the idea that sex is sacred and magical and you want your wedding night to be perfect. It's a myth that needs busting.

*except for those being played up for comedy
**it's never sex. they're making love.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
328

I suspect "terrible" "awful" and "shitty" is the result of going in thinking things like, "I should do this, even though I'm not especially enthusiastic," or "OMG sex is going to be the amazingest thing ever."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
329

@323: B herself said, I thought in that comment but somewhere, that boys are the ones at least as likely to be upset or hurt by these things, and the culture gives no warning or support for it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
330

Maybe messages like that are valuble for both girls and boys.

Eh. I'd like a more unisex message of 'do what you really want to within the limits of treating people well, which will for most people probably include some sex with people they aren't in love with, and will also include passing up a chance at sex with some reasonably attractive available people because you just don't want to.' But that's not the message girls or boys get now, and it also doesn't fit nicely on a T-shirt.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:20 AM
horizontal rule
331

"Tried as a juvenile" really is a magical phrase when you're 17.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:21 AM
horizontal rule
332

It's a myth that needs busting.

Anyone ever watch Mythbusters on the discovery channel? I'm just imagining the set-up for this episode...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
333

"Tried as a juvenile" really is a magical phrase when you're 17.

"Your honor, I tried as a juvenile, but it didn't start to click until I was 18."


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
334

To clarify, my "what the hell" was the decisionmaking (in the midst of, um, "heavy petting"), not my response.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:23 AM
horizontal rule
335

Cala, my 320 is very unclear. I highlighted that because I've been disagreeing with it. But not everybody knows that. I've been insisting that the first time can be special and very good, even in retrospect, due allowance being made for inexperience and other things.

I know it sucks for many people, just not all.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:24 AM
horizontal rule
336

It's a myth that needs busting.

I thought "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" pretty effectively busted this myth. Is it possible that the Deconstructionists who have taken over Academe have expunged this cultural touchstone from the Canon? Heaven forfend!

"Surf Nazis fuck off," indeed.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
337

Today I can't read "IDP" as saying anything other than "Insane Defense Posse."

Some of us did it at just the right time with just the right person and are exceedingly well-adjusted as a result. There's no universal correct answer to when is the right time.

I don't think well adjustment has a whole hellofa lot to do with when you lost your virginity or even necessarily how you lost your virginity. Rather welladjustmentosity* informs those decisions, up to a point, but not so much so that the circumstances of virginity loss are a desert for personal adjustment.

* Whatever well adjusted means. It's not an especially illuminating metaphor even within the realm of folk psychology.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
338

I'm a bit resentful that IDP has apparently stolen my virginity-losing story in 320.

Does anyone have a spare?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:30 AM
horizontal rule
339

I think 337 gets it exactly right.

Although I think I'm pretty well adjusted, regardless of what-all I've revealed here.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:31 AM
horizontal rule
340

Sorry, I meant 318.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
341

272 - just to elaborate, the n-dash is the ideal - some would say, perfectly-formed - punctuation mark for its purpose. Space-ndash-space and we've got a nice little interpolation, well-signalled. The m-dash, by contrast, either is mashing up against the words it's been stuck between (like--this)

For one thing, it's "em dash" and "en dash". (Similarly: "red flower", not "red-flower".) For another, space-en dash-space is fugly. Em dashes should be all up against the words they separate (a hairline space I can accept, of course, but never a full space). What's more, en dashes aren't even for "nice little interpretations", at least not by me; they're for numerical ranges, replacing hyphens when the terms bear spaces, and some other tasks*. But if you're interpolating a remark, you want the goddam em dash. Jesus.

*I'm aware this is traditionally a style manual sort of issue, but this is one of the areas where the CMS gets it objectively right.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:34 AM
horizontal rule
342

341: I knew you'd come through.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:37 AM
horizontal rule
343

Ben, how hard would be to pre-parse all the comments here and contextually substitute the proper dash or hyphen for that sentence? I mean, really.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:39 AM
horizontal rule
344

I just knew I would have some typo or other in 343.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:40 AM
horizontal rule
345

I think he actually should post the picture.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:40 AM
horizontal rule
346

337: Dammit. I forgot my hyperbole-as-rhetorical-device tag. Thus apparently failing to convey my intended point that welladjustmentosity does not hinge on a universally-accepted correct timeframe for devirginification.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:49 AM
horizontal rule
347

I say Jeeves, this chap is in a bit of a spot, V- wise. Rum go. Just like Gussie Fink- Knottle and that chorus girl in New York. Can't you use some of that gigantic brain fo yours and help the blighter out? I'm of to the Drones.


Posted by: Bertie Wooster | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:55 AM
horizontal rule
348

327: It's a myth that needs busting.

By this point, it's the counter-myth that the first time is always shite that needs busting. It needn't be so, at least not for the guy.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:56 AM
horizontal rule
349

at least not for the guy

Which is a horrible thing to say. I know.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:57 AM
horizontal rule
350

You know, hundreds of thousands of years from now, alien archeologist/computer scientists will be appealing to this thread as evidence of how humanity became extinct.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:58 AM
horizontal rule
351

The S in DS stands for shitebuster.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:59 AM
horizontal rule
352

348: What I've been saying, see 120 v. 121. It's easy to read 318 wrong, but I'm still curious about the belief in first time=bad's universality.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:00 PM
horizontal rule
353

Your biological imperative is to plant your seed in this woman, young lad. Nothing less than the future of the species depends on it.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:02 PM
horizontal rule
354

Why isn't "sucked for me, sucks for most people" good enough? What's irritating about the denial of its universality?

After all this time you still don't understand the Mineshaft.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:05 PM
horizontal rule
355

350 gets it exactly right. We should all be out fucking.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:07 PM
horizontal rule
356

355: Hey, I've done my bit. I probably have offspring I don't even know about.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:10 PM
horizontal rule
357

I'm campaigning to have a brand of septic tanks named after me. Some people might consider this a dubious honour.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:15 PM
horizontal rule
358

Well, if nothing else, this thread pretty much guarantees that Correspondent X will follow Ogged's advice at 30.

Of course we only have one view of the situation. It is conceivable that the girl is just a bit desperate to get laid before she goes to college, so she's picked on the Neil Gaiman guy because he looks like an easy mark who's too self involved to get all clingy afterwards. Or not. If any of us knew the answer, we'd have bought a winning lottery ticket for this weeekend as well.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:22 PM
horizontal rule
359

I probably have offspring I don't even know about.

This is unlikely unless you're judgement-proof or the young lady can't get into the US.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:24 PM
horizontal rule
360

I'm campaigning to have a brand of septic tanks named after me

Sure, use Winston Rothschild's marketing campaign, why not?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:25 PM
horizontal rule
361

359: Or unless we donated our IVF leftovers to infertile couples. I'm no Genghis Khan, but it's likely I have even the most procreative of my Catholic acquaintances beat.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
362

286: There will be someone you're at least somewhat attracted to in the not-too-distant future, there are shitloads of them out there.

This is true, but only in a strictly literal and therefore almost meaningless sense. In other words, it does not follow that the other person will be attracted to you.

336: I agree with you that "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" was a cultural touchstone, but it's 25 years old. Expecting someone now in high school to have seen it is optimistic.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
363

Phoebe Cates is now a pleasant-looking soccer mom type. Somehow I think that this is another case when masturbation should be forbidden.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:38 PM
horizontal rule
364

You can have my Phoebe Cates masturbation when you pry it from my cold, de--

No, wait. That can't be right.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:39 PM
horizontal rule
365

Way up at 286:

Getting laid only for the sake of getting laid is a bad idea.

No idea if this has been remarked since 286, but thank fucking god someone thought to mention it.

Are we fucking children around here? I wonder sometimes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
366

now a pleasant-looking soccer mom type. Somehow I think that this is another case when masturbation should be forbidden.

Hrm. I suppose if this is limited to 'while thinking about' rather than 'by', my ox isn't being gored here.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:41 PM
horizontal rule
367

Are we fucking children around here? I wonder sometimes.

Wow. That fruit isn't even hanging, it's just resting on the ground.


Posted by: Tarrou | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
368

365: Cut me a break, parsimon. Short of dsquared and gswift, pretty much everyone on the thread told the kid he wasn't on a schedule and shouldn't be having sex with people he didn't at least like and respect. Who are you giving a hard time for failing to say what?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
369

Getting laid only for the sake of getting laid is a bad idea.

I disagree with Parsimon. Ceteris paribus, there's nothing wrong with getting laid for the sake of getting laid. It's just sex. Any number of actual getting-laid situations introduce considerations that could make it a bad idea -- if you're deceiving or using the other person, for example. But getting laid doesn't have to mean something. It's a fine thing to do for its own sake.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:48 PM
horizontal rule
370

From the context of what she was quoting, I'm thinking "getting laid for the sake of getting laid" means "because you want the notch on your belt" rather than "because having sex is happy and fun", if you see the distinction. [Nameless] seems to be saying that he's not attracted to this girl, but wants to not-be-a-virgin -- he's not thinking about having sex for pleasure, but for having-had-sex. Which is stupid and pointless, if that's what's going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:52 PM
horizontal rule
371

Bave, I think the idea is more accurately discouraging getting laid for the sake of having gotten laid -- i.e., not for the sex, but for the sake of being able to say you did it.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:55 PM
horizontal rule
372

Or what LB said.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
373

but for having-had-sex. Which is stupid and pointless

That's easy to say when you've had sex already.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
374

370 covers what I meant.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
375

Yeah, I took that quoted line out of context.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:57 PM
horizontal rule
376

for the sake of being able to say you did it

I think the real motivation is to find out what it's like, not to be able to say you've done it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:57 PM
horizontal rule
377

341 - "nice little interpretations"

I believe that quote marks are reserved for exact quotations. And I maintain that the m-dash with no spaces is just plain fugly.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:57 PM
horizontal rule
378

Yep, LB captured what I meant in the quoted bit.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:57 PM
horizontal rule
379

I Am Teh Interpretator!!1!11!ONE!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:58 PM
horizontal rule
380

377 - was me of course, obeying the law that any bitchy little correction flame will be accompanied by some random fuckup.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:59 PM
horizontal rule
381

but for the sake of being able to say you did it.

We should bring up the time-tested method of just lying about not being a virgin, in case it hasn't occurred to [Nameless].


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 12:59 PM
horizontal rule
382

376: Because being able to say you've had sex doesn't actually require having sex.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:00 PM
horizontal rule
383

Pwned.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:00 PM
horizontal rule
384

We should bring up the time-tested method of just lying about not being a virgin, in case it hasn't occurred to [Nameless].

Those uncomfortable with lying should try don't ask don't tell. But you should tell a partner you're about to have sex with, I believe.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:06 PM
horizontal rule
385

I think the real motivation is to find out what it's like, not to be able to say you've done it.

That's the problem with Nameless's proposal: whatever he finds out it's like, given the circumstances with the girl in question, isn't going to tell him what it's like, except, I suppose, in the mechanics.

I begin to get the idea that a lot of people (who had shitty first-sex experiences) did it just to find out what the mechanics were like.

Uh, I guess there's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't get on a high horse about waiting for the right person and all that in order to promote some weird Magical Unicorns And Rainbows And Stars vision of sex.

The letter-writer is a kid who's as confused as we all were about competing ways to value his contemplated behavior: my friends think the girl is a dog, I will be ashamed, I can't even tell what my motivations are, I have tendencies to literary high-mindedness, is this wrong of me, yet she annoys me because she is not cool enough.

Gah. High school sure sucked.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:07 PM
horizontal rule
386

isn't going to tell him what it's like, except, I suppose, in the mechanics

The mechanics are not an insignificant part of the experience.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:09 PM
horizontal rule
387

Yes, soccer moms can masturbate, even though they no longer appropriate perv objects.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
388

387: (printing out thread for use as permission-slip if busted.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
389

The mechanics are not an insignificant part of the experience.

I actually always prefered the biker, and the guy with the Indian war bonnet. We are talking about having sex with the Village People, right?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
390

I think Rainbows and Stars sells people's realism and common sense short, in many cases. My first time experiences were good partly because of honesty and sensible expectations, and trust.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
391

We are talking about having sex with the Village People, right?

In your Emerson-approved dreams, LB.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:18 PM
horizontal rule
392

Everyone's dancing around the obvious issue. The woman sounds totally hott. Brutally honest, doesn't mention P. G. Wodehouse or Neil Gaiman, all your friends hate her? I've had worse bases for year-long relationships.

I would support Frowner-style Marxist dictatorship, as long as the government promised to centrally plan all sexual liasons. People are obviously too stupid to make these kinds of decisions for themselves.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:19 PM
horizontal rule
393

The mechanics are not an insignificant part of the experience.

No, they're not.

I take your point above about these things being easy to say once you've already had sex.

The kid is going to decide to do whatever he decides to do. The Mineshaft has now beaten him up pretty badly in advance if he does wind up sleeping with this girl. He was beating himself up already.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:21 PM
horizontal rule
394

government promised to centrally plan all sexual liasons

This basically happens in N Korea. Gov't arranges a suitable spouse, you get to refuse, and even to refuse again with the second choice before being stamped single forever. Keeps messy family alliances from forming.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:22 PM
horizontal rule
395

I begin to get the idea that a lot of people (who had shitty first-sex experiences) did it just to find out what the mechanics were like.

I was completely in love, and that made it all the shittier.

On the other hand, I didn't follow IDP's advice in 384, which made things really awkward later.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
396

Can I note for the sake of clarity that Nameless doesn't say that the woman is "brutally honest," but that he's about to be brutally honest when he calls her dull. Ok, thanks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:31 PM
horizontal rule
397

Yeah, while she may be infinitely cooler and more fun than [Nameless] thinks she is, he hasn't actually said anything that's positive evidence for that.

(Unless you're the kind of snob who thinks an interest in geeky books makes a woman necessarily less attractive. To whom I say phtbtbtbbtbbt.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:34 PM
horizontal rule
398


I love to de-lurk and then share TMI.

The kid should only have sex with someone he's into, even if he has rather particular standards for fuckability. I've had all of 4 partners, and two of them were long-term relationships, none of them before college. The last two, I just wasn't into enough to keep seeing beyond a few dates, and while sex is fun for one night stands, it is not enough to interest me beyond a second date. Maybe because the physical attraction wasn't sufficiently high to compensate for other deficiencies. The inverse would hold true too--someone sparky and intelligent and witty would be more hot than a pretty frat boy who thinks Hegel is a brand of German beer.

The goal would be to sleep with people you find physically attractive and interesting (whatever your standards for that) and nice. This, however, is harder than it seems.

The problem with dumb fucks/pity fucks is that afterwards they acquire embarassing pseudonyms like "Poetry-Hating Dude" and "World Music Guy." Of course, I didn't learn this until after I slept with them. I should be more particular, or in this late-20s stage of more liberal sexual attitudes (finally! sex is divorced from love!), lower my standards. Okay, more particular it is. The kid should go for the same. There's nothing wrong with waiting. Sometimes you get a hot older woman to show you the ropes. (cough)

There was a relatively cute guy who emailed me on Nerve, and I could not bring myself to hotlist him because he liked Enya. WTF.

Of course, I should just stop meeting software engineers who do not know enough about politics, philosophy, and literature. Where are all the humanties/social science grad students?!


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:36 PM
horizontal rule
399

Crying over their job market prospects.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:38 PM
horizontal rule
400

What we need now is a parallel 'Ask the Mineshaft' query from the woman in question. Track her down, Unfoggetectives!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:39 PM
horizontal rule
401

could not bring myself to hotlist him because he liked Enya

I've managed to overlook this (admittedly egregious) flaw in my wife.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:39 PM
horizontal rule
402

I've only skimmed large parts of this thread, but geez, come on folks: even I'd had sex before college, and I was a complete LOSER in high school. So yes, this is vitally important.

But I'm suprized no one has suggested a compromise position: if you're worried you'll feel bad or guilty after the sex, maybe you should just angle for a blowjob?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:41 PM
horizontal rule
403

398 - On Unfogged, arguing with the lawyers about who has the worst life.

392/397 - You know, the most interesting thing about [Nameless]'s letter for me was the way in which reference continues to stand in for culture or intelligence for bright high school students. (And people who continue to think like bright high school students: see Pitchfork.) Dull Chick might be smart as a fucking whip*, but if she listens to Fergie and can't carry off an entire conversation in Simpsons quotes, it's probably not going to be obvious to a 17-year-old because the smartdar isn't fully developed yet.

* Or, you know, not.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:42 PM
horizontal rule
404

398: Didn't a recent study identify four partners lifetime as the statistical norm? Not that that's relevant to anything.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:44 PM
horizontal rule
405

402: And then, if he's feeling ashamed later, he can say "I never had sex with that woman."


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:47 PM
horizontal rule
406

Belle Lettre, is the quote from Kermit Roosevelt on your site a joke, or has he really complimented you? We're talking about the Kermit Roosevelt of Operation Ajax, right?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:48 PM
horizontal rule
407

I have to say, I think that sexing someone you find dull is about the worst possible choice. (Whether the person actually is dull is beside the point.) If you can't find someone who you find hot, better to find someone towards whom you feel righteous anger, or wretched obligation, or sneaking terror. Something! Being the guy who sleeps with the girl who is nice but dull and likes you more than you like her is not a particularly satisfying role to cast yourself in.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:50 PM
horizontal rule
408

Are we fucking children around here?

(a) Eek! That's teh illegalz!

(b) Children try to have sex all the time for no reason? Goddamn kids!


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:50 PM
horizontal rule
409

406: Not unless he was writing from beyond the grave.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:52 PM
horizontal rule
410

to find someone towards whom you feel ... wretched obligation

I'm trying to come up with a story under which this is teh hott, and it keeps on turning into Western Melodrama porn. "Golly, Mr Whiplash, I said I'd do anything if you didn't foreclose on the ranch, but I had no idea you'd make me do this. How will I ever go back to Rising Gorge and look Aunt Becky in the face again?"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:54 PM
horizontal rule
411

If you can't find someone who you find hot, better to find someone towards whom you feel righteous anger, or wretched obligation, or sneaking terror. Something!

Good heavens, I wouldn't want a woman to whom I feel hatred or terror to get to enjoy the inimitable delight of a night with me. Unless it would give me the opportunity to one-up her in some way.

Being the guy who sleeps with the girl who is nice but dull and likes you more than you like her is not a particularly satisfying role to cast yourself in.

pwned by my life, but more importantly, by my 78.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:54 PM
horizontal rule
412

406: There's a Kermit Roosevelt who's a Con Law guy at U. Penn -- presumably a relative of the other, and the source of the praise.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:55 PM
horizontal rule
413

Yeah, wretched obligation isn't so much an option that I see yielding hotness; more, well, if you can't have hot, at least try for interesting.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
414

Here at BigFirm, we like a nice 3/4 em dash with hairline spaces around it.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
415

There's a Kermit Roosevelt who's a Con Law guy at U. Penn

Ahh, ok, thanks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:58 PM
horizontal rule
416

Yeah, wretched obligation isn't so much an option that I see yielding hotness; more, well, if you can't have hot, at least try for interesting.

Still better than "grim resignation".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:58 PM
horizontal rule
417

414: What's the difference betwen 3/4 em and en, and can most people tell with the naked eye?

I say they're all dashes, including the hyphens, and I say to hell with them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 1:58 PM
horizontal rule
418

Good heavens, I wouldn't want a woman to whom I feel hatred or terror to get to enjoy the inimitable delight of a night with me. Unless it would give me the opportunity to one-up her in some way.

"Ha! Told you I'd finish first!"

Then do a victory lap of the room. You know, to make your win sting.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:02 PM
horizontal rule
419

can most people tell with the naked eye

I can, but it's my job to notice things like that.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:02 PM
horizontal rule
420

In fact, I just now flagged a dash on a clinical study report that was for some reason in a different font than the rest of the report.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:03 PM
horizontal rule
421

395:

I was completely in love, and that made it all the shittier.

On the other hand, I didn't follow IDP's advice in 384, which made things really awkward later.

Oh. You didn't tell her you were a virgin?

I have a nagging feeling I'm sounding holier-than-thou. Just because I had a great time my first time.

I've only reluctantly come to admit that I just got really lucky: he and I really liked each other, a lot. I'd crushed on the guy for a year before I actually met him. And I was right!

Anyway, when we finally started seeing each other, he gave me to understand that he had no idea I was a virgin. Oh. Well, yeah. So he backed up and we smiled alot. And we spent the next 2 months or so in slow-motion exploration. Great stuff.

I got lucky because he came from a family of people who valued honesty tremendously, which was slightly new to me, and it turned out I did too. Very exciting. I was right, I was right!

What was the question?

Right. None of this was planned. I didn't hold out for the right person, I just waited until I was motivated. One has standards.

Ha.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:03 PM
horizontal rule
422

419, we're still talking about virginity, right?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:04 PM
horizontal rule
423

I use dashes in unedited writing all the time to join unweildy clauses into monster run-on senetences. What is a good way to add two long descriptive clauses to the same noun? Those genes [highly expressed under tortured circumstances] [are poorly conserved in the sense of Bloggs' completely misguided 2001 paper] only because the state of genome annotation for this organism is shitty, not because there's anything interesting about them. There must be a more economical way to say his-- the modifying phrases are too long, the sentence is unreadable.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:11 PM
horizontal rule
424

There's nothing wrong with sentence (aside from the brackets).


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:14 PM
horizontal rule
425

Hi everybody!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:17 PM
horizontal rule
426

There's nothing wrong with sentence

Dude.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
427

Dammit, teo, I knew it was you. You're not in high school.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
428

Oh. You didn't tell her you were a virgin?

Well, actually I lied and said I wasn't.

It took me a while to catch on to this "honesty in relationships" thing.

But in retrospect, since the first time was going to be terrible, I guess I'm glad it was with her. Because once we got past the whole "You lied to me!" thing, she was a very good teacher.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
429

427: Dude, this is from a guy who wants to know whether to have sex with a girl who obviously wants him. Of course it's not me.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:20 PM
horizontal rule
430

426: Identifying the particular sentence that has nothing wrong with it is deprecated.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:20 PM
horizontal rule
431

Hi Teo. Hope things are going as well as can be expected for you and your family. You can safely ignore this thread.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:21 PM
horizontal rule
432

OK, that'll teach me to ask for advice after being snide about some poor kid.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:22 PM
horizontal rule
433

Anyway, the main advice I have for the guy is:

1. Don't fuck this girl.

2. Virginity's not so bad, even in (and after) college.

3. Do not apply to any of the colleges that LB, ben and I attended.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:22 PM
horizontal rule
434

You can safely ignore this thread.

Too late.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:23 PM
horizontal rule
435

"Ha! Told you I'd finish first!"

There was a great ad for GT bicycles a few years back. Guy sitting up in bed with arms up in "I win!" pose, as woman looks at him resentfully. Tagline: "Fast. It's Company Policy."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
436

434: Now you can be the Awful Warning. "Sex up this girl, or you could end up like Teo! Booga booga!"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
437

I think that we should discuss the coot migration. I think that everything has been said, and it's getting pretty boring.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
438

It's your own fault for not getting the rights to post your own threads here, J-Em.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:28 PM
horizontal rule
439

discuss the coot migration.

You're moving?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:29 PM
horizontal rule
440

Wow. Even in Horny Teenage Boy world, this sounds like an awful idea.

He doesn't like her AND he's not hot for her (one of the two would be sufficient, IMO). So that leaves the only reason he wants to do this as opportunity, to know what sex feels like or to be able to say he's done it or both.

Best-case scenario (again, in Horny Teenage Boy World): she just wants to have sex with him and doesn't have any expectations. He'll sleep with her, then continue to see her around, she'll do something that annoys him, he'll remember what she looks like naked, and his senior year will become one long Walk of Shame.

And that's the BEST-case scenario. More realistic is that she's got sex and like all mixed up, she wants him to be a boyfriend on some level, he'll do something callow and dole out more hurt than is necessary, her friends will hate him.. AND he'll continue to see her around, walk of shame, etc.

Re: reunions in 72: 10 was fun, 20 sucked. Go if the ticket's not too expensive and it's not too much of a hassle to get there.


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:30 PM
horizontal rule
441

You missed it, LB. I saw about 5,000 coots ("mudhens") rafting up for migration when I bicycled around Lake Wobegon the other day. The coot migration is not awe-inspiring or spiritual, but there are an amazing number of coots.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:33 PM
horizontal rule
442

The coot migration is not awe-inspiring or spiritual, but there are an amazing number of coots.

This is awesome in Marlon Perkins (?) voice.

You ever apply to work for NOVA, Emerson?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:36 PM
horizontal rule
443

I was planning a festival.

"Lake Wobegon's pretty good bird migration". "Coots aren't as bad as people think". "Better than no bird migration at all".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:39 PM
horizontal rule
444

"A surprisingly large number of nondescript birds heading in roughly the same direction."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:43 PM
horizontal rule
445

he'll remember what she looks like naked

It could be the first entry in his Photobucket score page!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:44 PM
horizontal rule
446

"'Round this time of year, some people look at Lake Winnipesaukee and say Ugh, what a mess, what an enormous amount of goose feces, I cannot believe how disgusting nature is and what an idiot I must be to go there and film it. But if you look much closer, it's really not that bad. For behind the goose feces...lie the geese themselves."


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:44 PM
horizontal rule
447

I would think the goose feces would usually lie behind the geese, given the anatomy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:45 PM
horizontal rule
448

Lake Winnipesaukee

I took my five-year-old daughter sailing there and sank the boat, once.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:47 PM
horizontal rule
449

Escorts seem to be around $300-$400 / hour.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:48 PM
horizontal rule
450

This may be the first thread ever hijacked by a discussion of coot.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
451

In Wales it's five pounds. Ten if freshly shorn.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
452

Oh, cool, ogged's live-blogging the haggling.

Go lower! Go lower!


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
453

448: Whoa, I thought that was a fictional archetype of a lake. Never mind.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
454

In Elgin, N.D. escorts are $20-40 / hr.

Geese can be an enormous pest.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:50 PM
horizontal rule
455

453: Nope, it's all real. Nice place for a vacation, if you like water and near-death experiences. (Actually, we made it back to shore fine, but the decks were awash -- the mast of the boat was sticking up from the surface of the water. Sally handled the situation with remarkable aplomb.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:52 PM
horizontal rule
456

Well, I'm just saying that if Britney had done that to her kid there would have been consequences. But LB is a high-powered Manhattan lawyer, so she's untouchable. I imagine that substances were involved.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:54 PM
horizontal rule
457

In Elgin, N.D. escorts are $20-40 / hr.

Geese can be an enormous pest.

Maybe if you tipped better they wouldn't be.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:54 PM
horizontal rule
458

Oh, cool, ogged's live-blogging the haggling.

Go lower! Go lower!

That pushes the price up like $50.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
459

What you have to worry about is geese that are enormous pests.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
460

I haven't read this yet but obviously you should fuck her.

Going through life inhibiting oneself out of a paternalistic belief that others don't really know whats best for them is really fucked up.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:57 PM
horizontal rule
461

Escorts seem to be around $300-$400 / hour

The guy's, what, 17, 18? $20 or so ought to take care of it.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:57 PM
horizontal rule
462

I think he shouldn't fuck her, it takes valuable time that he could be using to fuck someone he likes.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 2:59 PM
horizontal rule
463

So how many overeducated person-hours have now been spent cockblocking a 16-year-old?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:03 PM
horizontal rule
464

If one of us bangs the dull chick, it will have been worth it, NPH.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:04 PM
horizontal rule
465

Hey, guys, this is the coot thread now. Fuck off.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:05 PM
horizontal rule
466

463: You mean at Unfogged today or in history?


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:06 PM
horizontal rule
467

Hey, guys, this is the coot thread now. Fuck off.

John has claimed her. Fine by me.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:06 PM
horizontal rule
468

464: Which is why it's bizarre that no one's offered the obvious advice: he needs to bring this girl to UnfoggedCon and let the evening go as it may. It'll be like Flounder's girl from back home at the toga party, only better.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:08 PM
horizontal rule
469

468: I don't see how this young man will benefit from being forced to service Fontana Labs.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:10 PM
horizontal rule
470

464, 468: There's an actual individual teenage girl who's a member of a social group where at least one person reads Unfogged under discussion, and who hasn't herself done anything unseemly. It'd be nice, if she came across the thread, if she didn't come in for all that much abuse.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:12 PM
horizontal rule
471

Clearly, Ned has not yet been forced to service Fontana Labs.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:12 PM
horizontal rule
472

469: Luckily, this is the pointing-out-the-obvious thread, so there should be another 400 comments explaining that in the next couple of hours.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:13 PM
horizontal rule
473

And, noone can tell that you don't like them unless you don't bother trying. They can tell if you aren't really head-over-heels, though.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:14 PM
horizontal rule
474

470: True dat. FWIW, the abuse was meant to be directed more at our nameless questioner, but apologies, nameless teenage girl, for my poor aim.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
475

"122, 125: Further on this tangent: the problem is the underlying implication that men are entitled to have sex on their terms, and women are obligated to provide that, whether for love or money. Uh uh."

jesus


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
476

470: Dope-slap from Mom! Straighten up, boys.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
477

470:

LB, it's all a question of whether to fuck her or not. She has no agency in the matter.

Get with the program.

Meanwhile, at Lake Winnipesaukee there's an ice-cream shop, forget its name, but it's somewhat famous, which has a sort of buffet style make-your-own-sundae thing.

OMFG. You get your ice cream scoops of choice in your dish, then you pile on at will. Marshmallow? Pineapple? Cherries? Multi-colored sprinkles? Or just the chocolate ones? Nuts? What kind? And so on.

Oh, man. My 14 year old self, and my 17 year old self, and my 21 year old self, keels over.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:19 PM
horizontal rule
478

Fuck it. I guess coots don't have the oomph I need to derail this stupid thread.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:19 PM
horizontal rule
479

But the geese had real promise.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:22 PM
horizontal rule
480

I fail to see how 477 is a response to 470. Or is anything other than annoying.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:26 PM
horizontal rule
481

She has no agency in the matter.

Freelance escort, eh?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:26 PM
horizontal rule
482

448: Wow, that brings back memories. My dad did something similar with me on Lake George (when I was, I believe, 6) and I flipped my lid. I can still remember being absolutely terrified and not wanting to let go of the side of the (capsized) boat when my dad wanted to right it.


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:30 PM
horizontal rule
483

We didn't capsize, just started settling lower and lower in the water until the waves began lapping over the deck. Sally was considering becoming distraught, but refrained when I explained that it would make the whole 'getting back to shore' thing more difficult for me, and she'd be better off sitting tight.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:32 PM
horizontal rule
484

In a situation of that kind, I wouldn't defy LB's steely-eyed look any more than Sally did.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:33 PM
horizontal rule
485

480: My 477 was deep sarcasm in the first couple of remarks. Generally indicating that the language of "should you fuck her" takes agency away from her. The alternative would be "should you have sex with her." It irritates me a great deal when the mineshaft switches to the "fuck her" language, even in jest. Sorry.

Then I switched to my memories of Lake Winnipesaukee; I have family up there.

Maybe I should separate my comments by topic. Or just fuck off.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:36 PM
horizontal rule
486

406:

Ogged, this is Kermit Roosevelt _III_, and the Operation Ajax Kermit is Kermit Roosevelt _II_ (his grandfather). Technically, my Kermit is Kermit the IV, because his dad restarted the numbering for some reason.

Kermit III is non-violent, and is a law professor at UPenn, trying to get Guantanamo detainees out on habeas petitions. And he thinks my blog is awesome. So we like him.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:41 PM
horizontal rule
487

I only got 150 comments before I realized that I have to pack and go to Italy, but if anyone's still debating Mikey Mineshaft's precious flower, my read:

1. It is a bad idea for you to sleep with this woman. If you do, you will look back upon it as a bad idea, but it probably won't fuck you or her up for good. My first time was a slightly bad idea, mostly because the girl in question slept with a friend of mine hours before, and because the girl NOT in question was pretty pissed off that I didn't wait for her. (We were on a break!) After a year, it was only a funny story.

2. No matter what path you choose, you may never again be the guy who says, "It's much harder for girls, who can sleep with just about any guy they choose just by letting him know they are available."


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:43 PM
horizontal rule
488

I think the rule on numbers is that you count from the oldest Kermit now living -- when Grandpa Kermit dies, little Kermie Threesticks suddenly becomes Kermit Jr. People don't reliably do this, but it's the right thing to do, and explains why you never see numbers larger than four outside the context of royalty, who don't reset on a death in the family.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:45 PM
horizontal rule
489

By the way, it appears that I only de-lurk and comment on threads involving dating and sex. I do believe that this may be my passive aggressive, pseudo-sexual way of hitting on all you male Unfoggeds.

When is the next Bay Area Unfogged meet up again?

Time to get drunk and brazen.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:46 PM
horizontal rule
490

How do you feel about Tevas?


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:51 PM
horizontal rule
491

I don't think 488 is right. I don't know a lot of these people, and the ones I do know I haven't known across a generation divide, but I can't imagine the Juniors, Treys and Trips I know just suddenly becoming Jack and Junior.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:51 PM
horizontal rule
492

402:

Brock!

1. You are alive!
2. Are you still married?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
493

hitting on all you male Unfoggeds

Simultaneously?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
494

487.2 should be "easier for girls".


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
495

I think the rule on numbers is that you count from the oldest Kermit now living -- when Grandpa Kermit dies, little Kermie Threesticks suddenly becomes Kermit Jr. People don't reliably do this, but it's the right thing to do, and explains why you never see numbers larger than four outside the context of royalty, who don't reset on a death in the family.

Have never heard this in my life. But I don't hang out with the upper crust.

Is this supposed to be one of the ways you tell the aristocratic III's from the hoi polli III's? Because one day the aristocrat becomes a Jr. and then a Sr.?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:54 PM
horizontal rule
496

2. Are you still married?

And this is BG's passive aggressive, pseudo-sexual way of hitting on Brock.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:54 PM
horizontal rule
497

Since the sly I'm-just-recommending-a-proctologist gambit didn't work.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:55 PM
horizontal rule
498

487:2. No matter what path you choose, you may never again be the guy who says, "It's much harder for girls, who can sleep with just about any guy they choose just by letting him know they are available."

I have fallen deeply, truly, and irrevocably in love with Wrongshore. Call me if you're in NY sometime, honey.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:55 PM
horizontal rule
499

wow, too late to comment on the original post, but I will anyway. He shouldn't sleep with her if he actively dislikes her. Because that's no good. But he should try a lot harder than he's trying now to like her, warm up to her, and get over himself.

I really regret passing up a HS opportunity like this one, the woman was great but I was too young and stupid to see that. In part because of the judgements of my friends. Not that any of that is necessarily the case here, but people in HS need to remember that they are young and stupid and second-guess their own judgements a bit.

122, 125: Further on this tangent: the problem is the underlying implication that men are entitled to have sex on their terms, and women are obligated to provide that, whether for love or money. Uh uh.

B is haunted by the idea that some man, somewhere, is having sex on his own terms.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:56 PM
horizontal rule
500

hitting on all you male Unfoggeds

Change of plans for Portland meetup: rent car, drive to Bay Area.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:56 PM
horizontal rule
501

488: I don't know what the rules are. I do know that my maternal grandmother wanted her husband to drop the Jr. once his father died, but that he wouldn't do it, because his father had been fairly prominent i a provincial sort of way.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:57 PM
horizontal rule
502

I really regret passing up a HS opportunity like this one, the woman was great but I was too young and stupid to see that.

Maybe she wasn't great for you then. Don't regret it that much.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:57 PM
horizontal rule
503

This thread has averaged almost a comment a minute for over eight straight hours. Haile Gebrselassie has nothing on Unfogged. Although he's more fit and I'm sure less sex-obsessed.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:59 PM
horizontal rule
504


Simultaneously, until one of you (unmarried) Unfoggeds finds me on Nerve (or I find you, it has happened!) and "winks" at me and I "wink" back.

I actually find Nerve of very limited utility except for the fun of "two nerds passing in the net."


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 3:59 PM
horizontal rule
505

502: "great for you" is not how people make these choices, especially in HS. I believe a thick Russian accent was most of the problem.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:01 PM
horizontal rule
506

Time to get drunk and brazenless.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:01 PM
horizontal rule
507

I learned (perhaps incorrectly) that you can keep running up the Roman numerals as long as you keep having male offspring and giving them the same name (exact same name, including middle). I know a guy whose son is technically R. C. Young IX. Also, guys who use II are twits, because they're just trying not to be Jr.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:03 PM
horizontal rule
508

498: I pay attention, what can I say? See ya in the city.

Also -- I think it is ok for Mikey Mineshaft (Meinschaft!) to hang out with the girl, kiss her a little, and if he isn't warming up, say "I'm not ready" or just break up with her. That said, that's the kind of thing most boys do on their own; to do it on the receiving end of advice is extraordinarily lame. As is advising it in the first place.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:06 PM
horizontal rule
509

I just checked wikipedia, which says there's no rule -- a family can reset on a death or not, as it chooses.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:06 PM
horizontal rule
510

507: I knew a guy years ago who, if memory serves, was George P. Cracker IX. On the Jr. vs. II thing, I thought the deal was that you're supposed to use Jr. when the kid gets dad's name and II when it's grandpa's.

We cleverly avoided the issue by giving the kid his own damn name. My wife says that one of me is more than enough.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:07 PM
horizontal rule
511

By the way, how did the last Date the Mineshaft work out?

If only Unfogged had a bot where users could upload photo gravatars up along with comments.

Or, you can just ask young w-lfs-n what I look like.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:08 PM
horizontal rule
512

Wikipedia? That bastion of mobocratic hoi-polloiery? Tosh. I'm the answer is somewhere in the appendices to Debrett's Peerage.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:08 PM
horizontal rule
513

509: I just edited the same Wikipedia article. The new rule is, the roman numeral has nothing to with descent. It is a personal measurement, in inches.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
514

So, w-lfs-n, what does your mom look like?


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
515

"I'm sure the answer is"


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:10 PM
horizontal rule
516

I thought the deal was that you're supposed to use Jr. when the kid gets dad's name and II when it's grandpa's

This is the rule I deduced from the practice of the Stevensons, our local political aristocracy.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:10 PM
horizontal rule
517

I thought the deal was that you're supposed to use Jr. when the kid gets dad's name and II when it's grandpa's.

Again, I could be wrong, but I had the impression that you only got the Roman numerals if the name carried through consecutive generations. Otherwise you dilute the, uh, whatever status they're meant to confer.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:11 PM
horizontal rule
518

Ouch!

By "young" I meant "born after Reagan's first inauguration. I juuust made it at 10/1980.

On second thought, that makes me a pretty hot young MILF.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:12 PM
horizontal rule
519

492.
1. Barely!
2. Barely!


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:13 PM
horizontal rule
520

519: Yay for both! Are you out of the closet re: Unfogged yet?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:14 PM
horizontal rule
521

519: 1 caused 2, or the reverse?


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
522

I do believe that this may be my passive aggressive, pseudo-sexual way of hitting on all you male Unfoggeds.

Wait. You do know the truth about us, right?


And Wrongshore, although my lovin' may be much less desirable than LB's, I also want to say kudos for 487.2. I hadn't even thought of it at first, but these are exactly the sort of stories to keep in mind next time that trope arises (and I've certainly been guilty in the past), since they're so damn common.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
523

The two-time presidential nominee, Adlai Stevenson II, was the namesake of his grandfather, who was I think Cleveland's vice president. His son, former senator, is III, his, a tv reporter, is IV.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
524

You have a kid, BL?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
525

one of you (unmarried) Unfoggeds

Changing rules in the middle of the game is deprecated. Portland meetup back to original plan, unless Emerson wants to drive down to the Bay by himself.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
526

The two-time presidential nominee, Adlai Stevenson II, was the namesake of his grandfather

See, that's cheating. Parvenu.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:19 PM
horizontal rule
527

Ogged:

Nope, no kid. The MILF crack was in response to 514. If I'm w-lfs-n's mom and only one year older, that's some feat of science, and makes me a very hot young MILF.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:19 PM
horizontal rule
528

Or an early adopter.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:22 PM
horizontal rule
529

The two-time presidential nominee, Adlai Stevenson II, was the namesake of his grandfather, who was I think Cleveland's vice president.

Well, of course. All naming rules may be broken if you want a name that will get you into Princeton but an intervening generation or two stand in your way (see also Kennedy and Vanderbilt).


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:23 PM
horizontal rule
530

522. There's nothing wrong with your lovin', Po-Mo. especially if expressed in food, rather than sex.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:23 PM
horizontal rule
531

I'm the answer is somewhere in the appendices to Debrett's Peerage.

In Debrett's, when dad dies, sonny stops being Viscount Something and becomes Lord Whozis, or Hon>Duke or that sort of thing. Jrs and IIIs are for proles.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:23 PM
horizontal rule
532

the link in 522 is awesome.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:24 PM
horizontal rule
533

never again be the guy who says, "It's much [easier] for girls, who can sleep with just about any guy they choose just by letting him know they are available

Has anybody here actually said that, or anything like it? The real issues, at least for grownups or even college students, are different and if anybody here has said otherwise, except in stereotype jest, I'd be surprised.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:25 PM
horizontal rule
534

533: I'd be surprised if no one ever had even in our august halls. Even if not, it's a fallacy pretty commonly held by men of all kinds, even otherwise enlightened types.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:29 PM
horizontal rule
535

Oh, and thanks for the tip about how my attribution may have been confusing, Ogged.

I changed it to reflect that it's Kermit III (he says he'll always be III, like Galadriel).

Also pondering changing: whether I should make it clear that I'm one of the few Nationalists writing about federalism. It's not unheard of. So I just dodged it and deleted the reference.

I should have gone to grad school with SEK.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:29 PM
horizontal rule
536

Oh, and thanks for the tip about how my attribution may have been confusing, Ogged.

I changed it to reflect that it's Kermit III (he says he'll always be III, like Galadriel).

Also pondering changing: whether I should make it clear that I'm one of the few Nationalists writing about federalism. It's not unheard of. So I just dodged it and deleted the reference.

I should have gone to grad school with SEK.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:29 PM
horizontal rule
537

There's here, and then there's that big mean ugly Internet out there where it does get said all the time. (I wouldn't be surprised if it's been said here, but I couldn't come up with a cite offhand).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:29 PM
horizontal rule
538

My second daughter is the fourth generation to have the name "Martha". They all have different middle names though.


Posted by: Joeo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:30 PM
horizontal rule
539

the link in 522 is awesome a vile slander

Every man who comments here has a full ear of hair.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:30 PM
horizontal rule
540

There's nothing wrong with your lovin', Po-Mo. especially if expressed in food, rather than sex.

And I thought I'd never find a use for that valentine I carved out of ground beef.

Well, my work day is done, so I too have to go meet dsquared's mum in a pub (IYKWIM, AITTYD).


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:33 PM
horizontal rule
541

I too have to go meet dsquared's mum in a pub

Somehow this brings to mind a certain scene in 3:10 to Yuma .


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:35 PM
horizontal rule
542

dsquared's mum

How would he know who that was?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:36 PM
horizontal rule
543

there's that big mean ugly Internet out there where it does get said all the time

How are we responsible for this again?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:36 PM
horizontal rule
544

544: My instruction to Mikey Mineshaft was for life, not for Unfogged.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:39 PM
horizontal rule
545

You're not responsible (did I say something attributing such responsibility to you? If so, my bad). But the kid who wrote in is forever barred from being that guy, here or anyplace else.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:41 PM
horizontal rule
546

Also we learned that asserting this rule is a good way to suck up to LB.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:52 PM
horizontal rule
547

re: 350

Or, alternatively, why the human race is now largely red-haired and slightly fat.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:54 PM
horizontal rule
548

True fact. I've still got some issues around not getting laid in college that get all set off when someone makes that claim. Fifteen years later and I'm still tetchy about it. Man, why don't I just lighten up?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:55 PM
horizontal rule
549

B is haunted by the idea that some man, somewhere, is having sex on his own terms.

Haunted by the ghost of Charles Foster Kane?

Anyway, I say the kid should find a hobby: start a band, cook a coot, something.

Now I'm fucking off to the pub, too.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
550

547: No, I think probably still extinct. I see the archeologists determining that humanity went through a largely red-haired and slightly fat period, and then destroyed itself in an unstoppable chain-reaction of irascibility when the percentage of the population sharing the relevant ancestry passed a critical tipping point.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
551

It puzzles me that so many people find sexual kibitzing more interesting than coot migrations.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:02 PM
horizontal rule
552

The two-time presidential nominee, Adlai Stevenson II, was the namesake of his grandfather, who was I think Cleveland's vice president.

We operate under the mayoral system, Idp.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:04 PM
horizontal rule
553

I thought the office of Vice President of Cleveland was eliminated by the Kucinich administration.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:09 PM
horizontal rule
554

520: out of the closet re: Unfogged in what way, exactly? She doesn't know about the buttsex. Or those cock pictures I sent in.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:10 PM
horizontal rule
555

How many cocks do you have? That wasn't one of the symptoms you mentioned.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:11 PM
horizontal rule
556

I think girls oughta pursue recreational sex same as boys, and that everyone should lighten the fuck up.

I have no idea how someone can say this and also be opposed on principle to all sex work, even in theory.

Because theory ain't shit. I can theorize about flapping my arms and flying to the moon, but there are facts which need to be dealt with.

B is haunted by the idea that some man, somewhere, is having sex on his own terms.

No. B is irritated by the idea that men have sex on their own terms without telling women what those terms are. And vice-versa. And mostly because of the passive-aggressive nice-guy post-coital clingy resentment issue, which is 100x worse than not calling when you said you would.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:12 PM
horizontal rule
557

556: the what-what what-what what-are-you-talking-about issue?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:15 PM
horizontal rule
558

Speaking of Cleveland, the ALDS presents a moral quandary. One must oppose the Yankees, because they are the team of evil; on the other hand, Chief Wahoo. One can only hope that the Sox will crush the Indians for the honor of Native Americans.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:16 PM
horizontal rule
559

And mostly because of the passive-aggressive nice-guy post-coital clingy resentment issue, which is 100x worse than not calling when you said you would.

What issue? Whose resentment? Whose clinginess? I'm not familiar with this stereotype.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:17 PM
horizontal rule
560

I deal with these quandries by rooting for the Black Crackers.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:19 PM
horizontal rule
561

Indians-Yankees game right now is developing into a classic.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:21 PM
horizontal rule
562

557: Eh, really, never mind. I was just being ridiculously pedantic in bothering with that comment.

559: People who aren't clear about what they want (or don't want) from sex often end up being a big pain in the ass. There's a pretty human impulse to project thoughts onto other people--dammit, now she's avoiding me in the halls because she doesn't want me to be her boyfriend! oh fuck, she smiled at me because she wants me to be her boyfriend!--and work up elaborate narratives about them and then behave like a jerk when really what you're supposed to do is (1) say what you want/don't want; (2) let the other person, as an independent human being, make up *their* mind about whether they can accept that, or not.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:22 PM
horizontal rule
563

Shit, a couple of feet in almost any direction and that one ties the game.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:26 PM
horizontal rule
564

560: Awesome. There's also this solution.

561: Indeed it is. Damn you, Pettitte.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:27 PM
horizontal rule
565

564: Please be aware that this is a facetious parody, and does not necessarily reflect the author's actual views on the matter.

You wouldn't think the "necessarily" would be necessary there.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:30 PM
horizontal rule
566

565: Or 'facetious.' Or 'actual.' Or 'on the matter.'


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:34 PM
horizontal rule
567

Ned, just bend over and take what you've got coming. You're not B's only client.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:35 PM
horizontal rule
568

Oh great. To top it all off, here comes Joba Chamberlain, the Native American pitcher. You can't make this stuff up.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:53 PM
horizontal rule
569

Entropy leads to baseball.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:54 PM
horizontal rule
570

Happy October, Ogged.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:55 PM
horizontal rule
571

I leave for two hours to do actual work, and I find myself having my reading skills pwned by ogged (I thought he was saying "brutally honest and dull"), on the receiving end of a pththfftpt from LB, and now 150 comments behind. You. Mother. Fuckers.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 5:58 PM
horizontal rule
572

You. Mother. Fuckers.

w-lfs-n's or D^2's?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:02 PM
horizontal rule
573

I'm relieved we conscend about this

This conscend - she is not a word, right?


Posted by: Rindy Ross | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
574

God sent a plague against the Yankees. Although maybe He just wanted to see extra innings.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:08 PM
horizontal rule
575

533 makes me question IDP's sanity.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:14 PM
horizontal rule
576

575: It's not unreasonably off the mark talking about here particularly, which is all he was. I have a memory like a particularly tense and cranky elephant for things that piss me off, and I can't think of someone arguing that position at Unfogged in recent memory. I wouldn't swear that it hasn't happened, but I wasn't paying attention if it did.

If I thought he were arguing that it wasn't a commonly held position generally, I'd agree with you on the sanity-questioning front, but I'm pretty sure he's not.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:20 PM
horizontal rule
577

Wow, what a top of the ninth. This really is turning into a classic. It's beginning to get that extra innings feeling.

"it's much [easier] for girls, who can sleep with just about any guy they choose just by letting him know they are available

There's a big difference between saying "it's much easier for girls" and saying that they can sleep with any specific guy they choose, two totally different things. I think it's accurate to say that if girls had just the same sexuality and desires young men did, then it would be easier for girls to satisfy them. But of course, if that were true then everything would be different.



Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:27 PM
horizontal rule
578

I think that the theory is stated as "It's much easier for girls, who can usually find a guy to sleep with if they're aggressive and not picky".


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:28 PM
horizontal rule
579

if girls had just the same sexuality and desires young men did

The problem isn't that women lack sexuality or desire. It's that we can get pregnant. Or be raped.

Not to be all humorless on you, but, duh.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:29 PM
horizontal rule
580

We set a river on fire! Unleashing a plague of locusts against America's favorite Winnebago is nothing.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:30 PM
horizontal rule
581

Well, technically, dudes can be raped.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:31 PM
horizontal rule
582

581: True, but you don't get warned about it constantly the way we do. It tends to instill a certain fear.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
583

dsquared's mum

How would he know who that was?

No one is going to take a swing at *that* low hanging curveball on the outside corner of the plate?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
584

Can be, but the odds of them being raped by women are awfully low. Non-zero, I'm sure, but awfully low.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
585

580: dare you to set the Yankees on fire.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:36 PM
horizontal rule
586

Build a man a fire, he'll won't be cold for a day. Set the Yankees on fire, and they won't be cold for the rest of their lives.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:38 PM
horizontal rule
587

True fact. I've still got some issues around not getting laid in college that get all set off when someone makes that claim.

And you went to MIT? That shit just ain't right.

A classic case of markets failing to clear if ever I've heard one.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:39 PM
horizontal rule
588

The problem isn't that women lack sexuality or desire. It's that we can get pregnant. Or be raped.

I certainly didn't claim women lacked sexuality or desire. I'd never say that. It just tends to be a somewhat different flavor of sexuality -- more selective, not as indiscriminate or driven. Especially when young. Anyway, now I'm the one being humorless, since I'm sure this stuff has been flogged over endlessly here.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:45 PM
horizontal rule
589

I linked a picture of myself in my MIT years recently that may have some explanatory force in that regard.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:46 PM
horizontal rule
590

It just tends to be a somewhat different flavor of sexuality -- more selective, not as indiscriminate or driven. Especially when young. Anyway, now I'm the one being humorless, since I'm sure this stuff has been flogged over endlessly here.

Yeah. There's not much of anywhere productive to go with this, but I would suggest that given the differing safety issues and social pressures, making strong claims about what tendencies women's sexualities would be likely to have in the absence of those asymmetries is going to be poorly supported.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 6:53 PM
horizontal rule
591

I linked a picture of myself in my MIT years recently that may have some explanatory force in that regard

The front porch pic? No way, man, you were cute in that one. Way above the threshold for an MIT student to want to bed you, in any event.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:03 PM
horizontal rule
592

590: true. But there is some cross-cultural evidence on this, men's sexuality is uniformly more oriented to casual sex across a wide variety of cultures. That's true for within-culture comparisons. But women in the most egalitarian, sex-positive cultures are more "casual" about sex than men in the most traditional cultures. So there's plenty of cultural variation to go with whatever natural difference might be there.

You don't need much underlying difference between male and female sexuality before pure market dynamics step in -- if women are somewhat more discriminating than men, then men seeking casual sex outnumber women and women can afford to be still more discriminating, etc.

OK, dead horse beaten. Anyway, I'm sure there will be a post the first time a female politician ruins her career by having casual sex in a bathroom stall, and we can revisit it all then.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
593

Well, now I'm just fishing for compliments.

Must have been the wounded-bobcat-like personality I was dragging around at the time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
594

589: I'd have thought a cute little androgyne would be the MIT dream girl. Were the nerds all crouched around the tv watching Baywatch, or what?


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
595

Not to beat a dead horse, but LB was cute as a bug, but so androgynous as to be kinky. Cute either way, but guys had to be asking what they were getting into.

It's not as if MIT kids have sophisticated tastes in kink.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:11 PM
horizontal rule
596

Were the nerds all crouched around the tv watching Baywatch, or what?

No, they were all taking the Fuck Truck to Wellesley College, where they drank themselves into a stupor in the corner while the Harvard guys scored.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:12 PM
horizontal rule
597

Perhaps the constant brutalization of the water buffalos left psychic scars.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:12 PM
horizontal rule
598

yeah, you were totally cute LB. Seems like it's so common for young women to be cute but not know it.

long boring article reference for claim in 592:

http://www.bradley.edu/academics/las/psy/pdfs/Schmitt-BBS-2005-Sociosexuality-ALL.pdf


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:13 PM
horizontal rule
599

It's not as if MIT kids have sophisticated tastes in kink.

Yuh huh.

(that loft, by the way, was totally not a meth lab. They made much fancier drugs than that. It was also a hell of a place to party)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
600

My sister was cute and I knew it, because guys kept trying to get introductions, but she didn't know it. And she was conventionally pretty and busty. My parents really minimized the talk about appearance. In a way my dad was a feminist, because he also encouraged my mom to involve herself in non-housewife activities.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
601

A cute little androgyne might have done better -- I think androgyny gets more offputting over 5'6" or so.

Seriously, it was, I am assuming, the wounded-bobcat-like personality; anyone trying to date me at the time (much as I wanted to get laid, and the whole affection and caring and whatnot involved) would have had to work through a tendency on my part to lurk in dark corners snarling at people and occasionally lashing out. I'm not actually drawing any conclusions about the oppression of women from the fact that I had a hard time finding someone interested in having sex with me on a regular basis.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
602

Apparently Buck destroyed a potential relation-free-life convert.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
603

562: In the interaction between two people, the one who is really concerned with avoiding a certain outcome (ie, hooking up w/o boyfriend commitments) is the one with the responsibility to get the clarification.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
604

Oh, I was firmly planning on committed spinsterhood. I already had plans for what to name the third cat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
605

5'6" is still little, shorty.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
606

601: In the grand scheme of things, it's better to peak later, as you apparently have done, even though it royally sucks to be pre-peak when others are peaking.

He who laughs last laughs best and all that.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:20 PM
horizontal rule
607

I'm 5'7.5" thenkyouverymuch. Tall enough to make androgyny genuinely confusing, rather than simply piquant.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:21 PM
horizontal rule
608

LB, where is this picture? Where? Where?

Perhaps if I can find my photos I will scan and link to virtually the sole remaining college Frowner photo, the one where I'm all sorta Goth-Euro-Bowie in a rather nice greatcoat.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:29 PM
horizontal rule
609

Huh. I just linked it again, but now I can't find it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
610

Holy shit that was a hell of an ending to that game. Ya-a-a-ankees su-u-u-u-uck.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
611

Did Randy Moss hit any homers?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
612

Sorry about that. Anyone else remember where I linked it?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
613

611: you bet, John. Dozens and dozens.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:48 PM
horizontal rule
614

Here it is, LB.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:49 PM
horizontal rule
615

I'm too smart for you, Sifu. Five or six homers would be a lot. I know that much.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:50 PM
horizontal rule
616

Gracias.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
617

Oh, well, I meant metric dozens.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:52 PM
horizontal rule
618

It's Canadian baseball, see.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 PM
horizontal rule
619

Woohoo, Indians, baby !!


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 PM
horizontal rule
620

That Moss is really impressive.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 PM
horizontal rule
621

I mean, Wahoo ! Indians, baby !!


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:54 PM
horizontal rule
622

the one where I'm all sorta Goth-Euro-Bowie in a rather nice greatcoat.

Sounds devastating.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 PM
horizontal rule
623

Wahoo, the baby indian!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:55 PM
horizontal rule
624

But in Canadian baseball each homer is only worth one run. Hence the name "home run", which in the US is a vestigial archaism.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:56 PM
horizontal rule
625

Baboo, the indie wahine!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:57 PM
horizontal rule
626

Waby, bah hindu! Ooo!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:58 PM
horizontal rule
627

All Canadians should be deported. Do we really want our nation to be taken over by Robert Pickton, the Trailer Park Boys, and Leonard Cohen? I think not.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 7:59 PM
horizontal rule
628

BC Pork Producers, with all pork producers in Canada and the US, are disturbed about issues concerning the Pickton case. The pork industry is disheartened when the story is labeled as the Pickton Pig Farm.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:00 PM
horizontal rule
629

All Canadians should be deported.

Absolutely. Those people are not real Christians, no matter how polite they are.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
630

There's no "eh" in "Jesus."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
631

Sure, they say they're all "devoot", but I don't even know what that word means.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:06 PM
horizontal rule
632

You can't deport Pat Robertson, or God will be angry.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
633

I'm watching Bill Moyer's piece on the crazy religious Anti-Iran people.

Wow. Hagy is nuts.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
634

I'm watching Bill Moyer's piece on the crazy religious Anti-Iran people.

Wow. Hagy is nuts.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
635

I'm watching Bill Moyer's piece on the crazy religious Anti-Iran people.

Wow. Hagy is nuts.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
636

I'll say! It's Hagee, though. It's Hagee, though. It's Hagee, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:20 PM
horizontal rule
637

He is arguing for a preemptive strike against Iran now. It is part of God's plan.

Bill Moyers is excellent.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
638

Hey everybody! Lots of stuff to respond to in 600 comments, but here goes:

1. I deserve all the abuse I've gotten for the Wodehouse/Gaiman comment, and wish I could take it back.
2. She's actually friendly and kind, which I should've made clear in the email.
3. The conclusions Cryptic Ned comes to in 80 and 82 are true.
4. There is indeed a nontrivial risk of accidental assholery, though given point 2 people may have been led to overstate it.
5. 499 - wisdom.
6. Everyone saying not to have sex just to have had sex is making sense. And yet... I want to have had sex. Confusion!


Posted by: Nameless | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
639

There's no "eh" in "Jesus."

Try the Spanish pronunciation.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
640

639: ain't that just like a Canadian to be speaking Spanish.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:26 PM
horizontal rule
641

36 to 638.6.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
642

639: Now you're bringing Mexicans into this?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
643

638: url to pic?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
644

638.6: Sex should only be wanted in the present tense.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
645

Having sex is to have always already wanted to have had having-sex.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:33 PM
horizontal rule
646

641: Heh.

Honestly, kid? If you're going to go ahead with this despite not being terribly attracted, at least work on talking yourself into an attraction. She's friendly, she's kind, she likes you, she's friends with all your other female friends; there's stuff to work with here. Having sex with someone you don't think much of isn't a kind thing to do, and also not all that much fun.

But really, I think you'd be better off holding out for someone you're delighted by the idea of having sex with. That's really the point of the whole endeavor.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:33 PM
horizontal rule
647

Have you considered taking ecstasy?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
648

645: When you get to the point of needing w-lfs-n to parse your desire....


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
649

Re 638: I've gone over 600 comments without weighing in on the original controversy, but....

Fuck her already.

1. It's always better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't do.

2. Sex, even at its most regrettable, has the redeeming quality of being...sex!

3. After the first time, intercourse will seem a bit less intimidating and you will find it easier to think straight about these things--and you'll be more comfortable chatting up women you're really interested in.

Just remember the wise counsel about not misrepresenting your intentions to the girl and not being an asshole to her afterwards.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:37 PM
horizontal rule
650

Everyone saying not to have sex just to have had sex is making sense.

Those people are just a bunch of sexually frustrated quitters.

OTOH, Team AaaaaGFI calls upon you to both improve yourself AND get laid.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
651

Also make sure she's really on board before you try and stick it in her butt, young man.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:41 PM
horizontal rule
652

Is she saving it for marriage? Cause statistics show those chicks are totally down with anal.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
653

1. It's always better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't do.

True unless they involve intentionally hurting people or consciously ignoring the possibility of hurting people.

OTOH, Team AaaaaGFI calls upon you to both improve yourself AND get laid.

Man, I wish I'd gotten that advice way back when. And a pony!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:46 PM
horizontal rule
654

"But really, I think you'd be better off holding out for someone you're delighted by the idea of having sex with. That's really the point of the whole endeavor."

I think this is symptomatic of wanting to treat life like a destination, and the "fuck yeah my biography is MINT" moment on your deathbead is the only one that matters.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:50 PM
horizontal rule
655

I just have to say that the most infectious chorus-less song of the decade is "Crambodia" by Plastic Little et al. Has anyone heard this? Oh man.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:51 PM
horizontal rule
656

647 is actually pretty good advice.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
657

647: yeah the technological fix.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
658

ignoring the possibility of hurting people

Nameless, if you only have sex where you have conclusively ruled out the possibility of hurting anyone, you will die a virgin.

There's lots of safe middle ground between being an ass and being 100% blameless at all times.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:56 PM
horizontal rule
659

657: better living through chemistry, man. I, transhuman!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:56 PM
horizontal rule
660

Man, I wish I'd gotten that advice way back when. And a pony!

Don't listen to Ned, he's just bitter.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
661

658: this really does seem like a situation where frank honesty could go a long ways: "listen, it's not like I'm in love with you, but you're sweet, and seem nice, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you, but like don't get your expectations up too high, right?"

However be sure to use exactly those words.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 8:58 PM
horizontal rule
662

652 is awesome.

I'd totally be down to stick it in you

Why you don't have the cute little undergrad chicks in a line outside your bedroom, I'll never understand.


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:01 PM
horizontal rule
663

Like I don't.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
664

The sentence in 661 should have "and everything" attached to the end of a few of its clauses to be truly effective.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
665

664: also "... ladies!"

Especially useful when speaking to a non-plural woman.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
666

And it should begin with "Ma'am".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
667

"Ma'am listen, it's not like I'm in love with you and everything, but you're sweet, and seem nice and everything, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you, but like don't get your expectations up too high and everything, right, ladies?"

Thus is the thread neatly summarized.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
668

Actually, "'n' shit" is more the way hip young people talk today than "and everything". It creates an air of sophisticated casualness.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
669

"Ma'am listen, it's not like I'm in love with you 'n' shit, but you're sweet, and seem nice and everything, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you, but like don't get your expectations up too high 'n' shit, right, ladies?"

Note the subtle alternation.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:10 PM
horizontal rule
670

"Ma'am listen, it's not like I'm in love with you and everything, but you're sweet, and seem nice and everything, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you, but like don't get your expectations up too high and everything, right, ladies? And if you don't, that's totally cool n' shit."


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:10 PM
horizontal rule
671

575 interprets me correctly. I was just wha..? about singling that out for praise, like it was a major social problem around here.

If LB (and Megan) want to insist that someone types that into their computer every 6.2 seconds, all I can say is I've a knack for avoiding it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
672

"Ma'am listen, it's not like I'm in love with you 'n' shit, but you're sweet, and seem nice and everything, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you, but like don't get your expectations up too high 'n' shit, lady."

Plural singular distinction.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
673

There's surely some conclusion to be drawn from the fact that to a good approximation, there are no women on Team aaaGFI. Probably that GingFI might be good for me, but might not be so good for the girl. Though given our daily interactions, the second clause is hard to get myself to believe.


Posted by: Nameless | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
674

609: John is down with the baby gente.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
675

673: women give terrible dating advice to men.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
676

609? Really?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
677

So do other men.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
678

Up until 673, I was leaning away from the consensus, and towards going for it: there's a non-trivial possibility that the change in context would result in a real change of view. 673 has cured me -- sorry kid, wait for a better play.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
679

Oh for god's sake, Nameless, it sounds like you *do* like this girl. You're just not crushed out/infatuated/in love with her.

All you have to do is make sure she knows that and if she's still willing, proceed.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:17 PM
horizontal rule
680

The no-relationship policy is a lie. He's just saving himself for Randy Moss. (And really, aren't we all?)


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
681

In the first instance, Patriarchy. In the second, Paternalism. You can't win. So you might as well at least get laid in the bargain


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
682

We don't know very much about this girl and in my opinion the answer hinges very much on her state of mind, since we know more or less about yours. Is she a virgin?


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
683

in my opinion the answer hinges very much on her state of mind

The easiest way to find this out would be for Nameless to ask her.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
684

681=>673


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
685

679 is a very different read on 673 than mine. Funny.

I'm listening on the radio, and don't really understand why Coco Crisp is out. Is anyone watching able to explain it?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
686

679 pwned by the oft-derided 661.

609 is always already 672.

656 gets it exactly right.

666 inhabits its index.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
687

685: I'm not able to explain it, no, but he's an idiot.

Ah, he went past second and didn't retag it on the way back after the hit got caught.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
688

Sheer Platonic admiration.

I don't know how long he can continue to carry the Patriots single-handed, though.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
689

683 is wrong. The easiest way to find out is for Nameless to post her phone number here so we could call her and ask her ourselves. Let's cut out the middle-man here.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
690

A Randy Moss gathers no dross.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:25 PM
horizontal rule
691

"Ladies listen, it's not like I'm in love with you and everything, but you're sweet, and seem nice and everything, and I'd totally be down to stick it in you n' shit, but like don't get your expectations up too high and everything, right, ma'am?"


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
692

From what he's said it's easy to imagine it turning out any of a hundred different ways. Does she think this will make him into her boyfriend? If so, will he resist aided by peer pressure, or instead is he secretly wishing to fall into the relationship he doesn't know how to ask for?

Thinking back to high school, I never needed any peer-group reinforcement to succumb to the advances of anyone who I was the least bit interested in; and the fact that my friends made fun of me over my girlfriends never fazed me. Now I'm not you (though I did read Wodehouse and Gaiman before I lost my virginity) but I'd say that needing to ask shows that you don't want to do it. I guess that whether this means you shouldn't do it is a different question, though.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:35 PM
horizontal rule
693

361:
359: Or unless we donated our IVF leftovers to infertile couples. I'm no Genghis Khan, but it's likely I have even the most procreative of my Catholic acquaintances beat.

This is blowing my mind. It makes sense, I just never thought about it. Has this been discussed to death around here already? No offense to the coot migration thread.


Posted by: Penny | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:38 PM
horizontal rule
694

I don't think we've ever discussed it. We didn't know that Jesus was The Seed, but we should have guessed.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:41 PM
horizontal rule
695

Jesus, this inning is stressful. Please send offspring, for massages and possibly light butlering.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 9:45 PM
horizontal rule
696

Issa, the time has come for the butlerian jihad!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:05 PM
horizontal rule
697

682: Yes, she is.
679.1: Basically.
679.2, I think, is exactly wrong, because making 679.1 clear to any girl will lead to the last panel of this http://www.basicinstructions.net/2007/08/how-to-apply-laws-of-physics-to.html, no matter what she originally felt. Better to try and divine it myself, or follow 689.

"I'd say that needing to ask shows that you don't want to do it. I guess that whether this means you shouldn't do it is a different question, though."

Best advice so far.


Posted by: Nameless | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:07 PM
horizontal rule
698

For what it's worth, my advice is to do it. Open up your heart enough to like and respect her first, see her as a real equal (not fall in love with her, but feel friendship and respect). Then just get it on and see where it takes you. Don't lie or mislead her about your emotions. But don't bother with giving big throat-clearing warning speeches first, they never do any good.

You're more likely to turn into an asshole by denying yourself sex at an early age and remaining too long in the phase where it's a big deal and you're desparately curious about it then by having a somewhat awkward relationship when you're really young. If you're in the college demographic, going off to college provides both men and women with a very natural breakup point for HS relationships.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:11 PM
horizontal rule
699

695 -- Sifu, you understand why people think this game is boring? Because there was no score in the seventh or top of the 8th.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:17 PM
horizontal rule
700

699: yes, I do understand the specific ways in which you lack a soul. Why do you ask?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:20 PM
horizontal rule
701

700 -- You do me injury sir. There's been a Chicago Bears' game's worth of excitement just in the 6th through 8th of this game. I weep for the people unable to appreciate it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:23 PM
horizontal rule
702

Oh!

Charley, I surely apologize.

Let us stress the fuck out together.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:25 PM
horizontal rule
703

Go Angels. I don't have TBS at home so I can't watch. Why the hell aren't these games on network TV?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:28 PM
horizontal rule
704

kinda of like how asking if you can kiss a girl is the dumbest thing evetr


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:31 PM
horizontal rule
705

OH MAN!!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
706

That is, for you marcus, 3 run homer by Ramirez in the 9th breaks the tie and ends the game.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 10:48 PM
horizontal rule
707

I can't believe I had to miss most of that game. Not only that, I had to wade through the cesspool of AM radio trying unsuccessfully to find it broadcast. But praise be upon Manny.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:12 PM
horizontal rule
708

Trying to find it broadcast while fucking driving, that is.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:13 PM
horizontal rule
709

679.2, I think, is exactly wrong, because making 679.1 clear to any girl. . .

Says the high school virgin boy to the 39 year old sexually experienced woman. Hokay, buddy, good luck to ya.

kinda of like how asking if you can kiss a girl is the dumbest thing evetr

You'll have to tell my husband that he made a terrible mistake, then, on our first date. When I was 18.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:16 PM
horizontal rule
710

39 = senile.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:18 PM
horizontal rule
711

B, of course, speaks for all women everywhere at all times.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:19 PM
horizontal rule
712

Both AL games today were classic, and I can't blame Anaheim walking Ortiz, given his record; but goddamnnit I missed a high school sex thread, the only type of sex thread I'm particulary qualified to comment on. (Hint: steal your parents' nice sheets, cut them into quarters, and fold those into eighths, or quarters. Much sexier than fucking on old towels.)


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:25 PM
horizontal rule
713

Sometimes I'm glad I didn't have sex in high school.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:27 PM
horizontal rule
714

711: Hardly. But probably your average high school virgin boy doesn't either.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:27 PM
horizontal rule
715

fucking on old towels

What the hell for?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:28 PM
horizontal rule
716

B, if you're reading this in the next five or so minutes, contact w-lfs-n and tell him he's a fool for refusing to dance.


Posted by: james k. polk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:28 PM
horizontal rule
717

Looks as though I've also missed blowing Penny's mind. If you have any questions, P (or anyone else), I'm happy to answer. The egg donor IVF thing is many different kinds of bizarre.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:29 PM
horizontal rule
718

714: Touché.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:30 PM
horizontal rule
719

716: Roger wilco.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:31 PM
horizontal rule
720

716: The gentleman in question wants to know "who told."

I informed him it was none of his beeswax. Whoever you are, Mr. Polk, I am grateful for the opportunity to hassle said gentleman.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:37 PM
horizontal rule
721

a) 592: marcus, don't even fucking go there.
b) in re: names, it is my understanding that the cycle of junior/senior continues indefinitely, while the numbering starts up when the namesake is someone other than the father. so, my grandfather "ridiculous dutch last-name as first-name" "whitey mcwhitington last-name" II was named after his uncle, but given that he's II his son was III rather than junior, and so on down the line to little "ridiculous dutch last-name as first-name" "whitey mcwhitington last-name" V, currently aged 7, but maybe practices vary.
c) Ker/mit Roosevel/t III is a cool guy in many ways, but totally copped a feel while hugging my sister goodbye at 4am after a party, for which reason he is slightly on my shit list. she was sort of too surprised to do anything about it, but I had to wonder whether he was just cruising for a beatdown or what.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:40 PM
horizontal rule
722

715:Ack, you know, bleeding... Now I feel gulty for not having read the thread.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:42 PM
horizontal rule
723

722: Oh, right. Not something I worry about (nor did I bleed the first time).


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:50 PM
horizontal rule
724

Come on, alameida, who wouldn't cop a feel from your sister at 4am?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-07 11:57 PM
horizontal rule
725

Husband X, one hopes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:02 AM
horizontal rule
726

dun dun DUN.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:08 AM
horizontal rule
727

Don't worry, everyone, I was indeed told I was a fool for not dancing. I am also, apparently, a fool for leaving the bar at 230am when I have a wedding to attend the next day.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:18 AM
horizontal rule
728

I was indeed told I was a fool for not dancing

You did the right thing, Ben.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:26 AM
horizontal rule
729

but I had to wonder whether he was just cruising for a beatdown or what.

Your mission is clear. When people cop the uninvited feel, it should be understood that this is an invitation for the relatives to fuck them up.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:35 AM
horizontal rule
730

When people cop the uninvited feel, it should be understood that this is an invitation for the relatives to fuck them up.

I think my sister would be annoyed that she didn't get to do the beating up herself.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:40 AM
horizontal rule
731

You guys know the story of Al's sister and the Nazi, right?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:43 AM
horizontal rule
732

730: Well *your* sister is a butch Scottish harridan.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:49 AM
horizontal rule
733

I'd forgotten that Nazi story.

I've got a couple younger sisters that are on the small side, like 5'3 - 5'4. Sometimes a bit of help is needed.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:50 AM
horizontal rule
734

733: Buy them guns.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:51 AM
horizontal rule
735

The youngest is currently applying to a couple of different police depts. She'll have her own pretty soon.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 12:56 AM
horizontal rule
736

Yeah, but then she'll only be allowed to use it officially. What kind of gun nut are you, not giving your sisters their own personal civilian guns?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:00 AM
horizontal rule
737

re: 732

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1334/531929897_fd7da52fac_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1407/531806124_953e623129_o.jpg

She'd be amused by the description as a butch harridan, though. Then she'd beat you up [obviously].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:02 AM
horizontal rule
738

What kind of gun nut are you, not giving your sisters their own personal civilian guns?

I gave my wife one!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:07 AM
horizontal rule
739

Okay, she's fucking gorgeous. Another ethnic stereotype dashed.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:07 AM
horizontal rule
740

What are the parameters for macking on a Scotsman's sister?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:09 AM
horizontal rule
741

738: Well *that's* gonna come back and bite you in the ass some day.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:10 AM
horizontal rule
742

741 to 740.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:12 AM
horizontal rule
743

What are the parameters for macking on a Scotsman's sister?

Don't.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:24 AM
horizontal rule
744

The voice of experience.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:29 AM
horizontal rule
745

re: 740

We don't generally mind. We look at it a bit like giving our cats a mouse to play with.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:42 AM
horizontal rule
746

"Stop the giggling and the arm-touching, just casually name-drop Robert the Bruce in a conversation, watch how quickly the pants come off"


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 1:52 AM
horizontal rule
747

She looks quite civilized and intelligent. Did she grow up in Scotland?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 5:52 AM
horizontal rule
748

Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led,
Welcome tae my party bed,
And tae Victorie!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 6-07 7:58 AM
horizontal rule