You know, proposing is one of the last truly unshakeable vestiges of iron gender roles. I was thinking a few months ago that I should, if I am with someone who I want to marry, do the proposing myself instead of waiting around for the guy to do it. Thinking about it further, I can just imagine the reaction after getting engaged. "So, how did he propose?" "Um, well..." "Where's the ring?" etc.
It's like proposing is the way that a man can show he wants to actually get married, and if a woman were to propose everyone would wonder if she was desperate, insane, or both.
I disagree. By the time of the marriage proposal, the family either knows the man or they don't. If they do not know him by the time of the proposal, then they are not sufficiently involved with their daughter to get involved now.
Then why shouldn't the woman ask the man's parents for permission to marry him?
(3 to the post itself, not to 1 or 2.)
Oy. This would give me the screaming meemies. My folks had met Buck before I ever did, but I still wouldn't have wanted them to have an opinion about whether I should marry him before I knew the idea was on the table.
(Unless you're talking about involving the parents at some time after the couple has agreed to get married, but before the formal kabuki 'proposal' with the ring and the Jumbotron, or however the kids are doing it these days.)
Ugh ugh ugh. Hopefully no guy I'd ever get to that stage with would do such a thing. I'm pretty sure my dad would tell the dude that I was the one with whom he'd need to take up that question.
When my sister got married, my dad walked her down the aisle, and at the altar the minister asked who was giving this woman to be wed. My dad replied, "She comes of her own free will."
My dad rocks.
1: Mr. B. proposed to me, a few years later I proposed to him, a few months later he proposed to me again. It was the last one that "took." But really, the kind of reactions you're imagining don't crop up; one's friends are pleased, and everyone else is going to be weird about every other aspect of your life anyway, so who cares?
Ok, this topic is a pet peeve of mine.
The proposal is stupid. People should be discussing whether they get married. Open, honest communication.
Getting married shouldnt be a guessing game.
"Do you think he is going to ask you????"
"I don't know him well enough. We havent discussed it."
I think having parents be involved and informed is great. But I presume that if I'm in a serious enough relationship that my dad is aware marriage might be a possibility, that my dad would have the chance to make his opinion on my future mate quite well known. If my dad has a problem with the person I want to marry, that's between him and me, not him and my dude.
Funny story: my father, trying to do the right thing, wrote a lengthy letter to my mom's dad, who he'd never met, asking for his blessing. My grandfather said no (because of the whole, you know, Egyptian thing), and then my parents went ahead and did it anyway. Years later, my grandparents laugh that they were so against my mother marrying my dad when he was the best thing to come into the family.
8: The thing is, opening the discussion is a proposal, isn't it? "I'd like to be married to you -- how do you feel about it?" Most people do it these days in a drifty, unfocused kind of way, come to an informal agreement, and then fake up a 'proposal', which all strikes me as idiotic, but you still can't get from there to here without someone saying at some point "So how about it?"
10:
But that isn't what people mean about a proposal.
This depends heavily on how old and independent the engagees are. I got engaged at 23. My fiancee was living with her parents at the time and has continued to live with her parents since. It would have been quite odd not to ask her dad if he approved of it, since whenever I visited her, there he was.
I asked her before asking her parents, but if they had hated the idea we couldn't ignore it.
If she was 35 and hadn't seen her dad in four years it would have been a strange, awkward thing to do.
I would like to say that several of you are crazy, but I think this basically takes care of itself for the most part, which is to say that people who think they should ask permission marry people whose parents would like to be asked. I made a trip to the ex's dad's place so that I could "ask permission," which is really a chance for the dad to give any advice he wants to give and have a real talk with the guy who's going to marry his daughter. And it's just respectful. That said, obviously the "guy asks the father" part is problematic and it just so happened that it made sense in our case, but otherwise I think I would have seriously considered a trip to see the mom as well.
7: Yeah, but Mr. B. had already proposed to you first. I'm not saying that the reactions would prevent me from doing it, and yes, of course people would be happy, but I'm sure that a first-time proposal from a woman would be regarded as weird and somehow "lesser" (yes, even by my friends, but maybe I have crappy friends).
10: No, I don't think having the discussion is a proposal. You have talks like, "what if we were married?" or "if we were married, would you..." and stuff long before you really decide that you want to actually take that step. At some point someone says something that's a clear question and one either says "yes" or "no" or "uhhhhhhhh, really?" and you move forward (or not) to setting a date at some point.
13 gets it right. Obviously we shouldn't have a convention where you do it even if the fiance and the dad can't stand the sight of each other and can't carry on a conversation.
Feministing is in a huff
they are, aren't they?
Surely this "trend" is bullshit btw. The "asking permission" thing is just a Potemkin show of asking; a sort of "Cooling Out The Mark". "I would like to ask your permission to ask for your daughter's hand in marriage" just means "I've asked her, she's said yes, if you don't like it then fundamentally tough fucking luck sunshine but apparently we're all pretending to be olde fashionede here so if you're prepared to slap on a fake smile and go through this charade so am I. I suppose I ought to call you fucking "sir" too or something, sir".
If anyone asked me for permission to marry my daughter I think I'd bury him under my rosebushes and tell the lass that he'd joined the Foreign Legion.
with the ring and the Jumbotron
I thought that I was the only one who called it that.
I talked to both sets of future in-laws. I wasn't actually offering up a veto, but it's polite and respectful and if they had any hesitation, I'd have given that some pretty serious consideration. At the least, that maybe more time would be a good idea. People who haven't been married routinely underestimate the amount of involvement you'll have with your new family. You don't want to be starting out with a goodwill deficit.
14: Honestly, I don't think people would get weird about it, unless they wanted to get weird about your relationship generally in which case they might use it as a hook to hang weirdness on.
15: Yeah, I'm really out of step with the current norm -- we didn't have those sorts of talks at all. Buck did the 'proposal' (ring, romantic location) thing without prior discussion, I said yes (actually, somewhat embarrassingly, I said yes before being asked, having figured out what was going on from the ring box). And then we started planning after that. But that's pretty weird these days, which means I probably shouldn't be pontificating.
Yes to 13. You're not really asking, even if you phrase it as a question (as I did, vaguely), because Dad's not going to say no &mdash and if he did, he'd know you'd be likely to answer, 'tough shit.'
People who haven't been married routinely...
You're saying that your expectations get more accurate with practice?
I wasn't actually offering up a veto, but it's polite and respectful
Rather in the way that I politely and respectfully ask little Adolf Napoleon if he'd care to eat up his sprouts, when we both know that he doesn't have a veto either. You say "polite and respectful", I say "patronising and ludicrous", let's call the whole thing a quaint old tradition that only offends some of the hairy-legged birds. I'm trolling again aren't I?
17: Given that your kids are what, not even in school yet? that seems like a perfectly appropriate response to proposals of marriage. Once they're somewhat older, you should probably lighten up.
I honestly don't know which one of us, me or my wife, actually proposed, i.e. which one of us first said something like "So ... you wanna get married?"
It was sort of hanging in the air over Christmas at her parents' house, because two of her friends had just gotten engaged. After we got back to her apartment (we weren't technically living together), we were lying around, and one of us asked.
If one of us had worked up the nerve to ask while we staying at her parents' house, we probably could have scored some congratulatory presents.
Or 'fundamentally tough fucking luck sunshine,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
Rather in the way that I politely and respectfully ask little Adolf Napoleon if he'd care to eat up his sprouts
You must get your son often confused with your daughter.
The ex basically asked permission by way of an email that essentially said he like the tradition of asking permission but ultimately we were getting married regardless. The proposal, to the extent there was one, came spontanteously months before, followed by, "But, let's not mention this to anyone just yet." So romantic...
#28: no, they have different insignia on their uniforms.
14: Well, he was a nut; I was still in college, for chrissake. But you may be right.
Next we will have feminist-approved Purity Balls?
Isn't it like, so Romantic
We don't need no stinking parental permissions
I've found that if you mutually believe that marriage (as opposed to commitment, which are very much not the same thing) is fundamentally a flawed institution, a wierd mix of archaic religious involvement, social controls, and contract law ... but consider that it might have immigration/tax/heath/etc. benefits you can have some pretty straightforward discussions about it.
And when I say `straightforward', I mean far less convoluted than this comment, but I'm too lazy to fix it.
shivbunny did not ask my dad's permission, and I think it sort of bothered him. Not that my dad thought that I was his property, or that shivbunny was in some outmoded courtship (uh) mode, but that it's an easy way to show respect for a future father-in-law (whose opinion thus far had been 'this is the sort of story that ends up with you dead under a bear.') In other words, he missed the bonding opportunity and the chance to know my dad more than he needed permission.
He proposed, but we'd talked about marriage beforehand so it was more a formality than him asking. At least for us, though, being engaged rather than just talking about it meant we had to be serious about planning a move, immigration, and a wedding.
We kept most of the marriage pageantry, as you can see, but there wasn't a whole lot of overt patriarchal nonsense going on. The shell was there, and maybe it shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the fact that most of it was a shell.
I'm trolling again aren't I?
Like a dog with the shits.
max
['There you are Toto!']
So, if I decide to propose, should I ask the boy's parents first, all you pro-permission people? If so, why?
All the arguments seem to be totally ignoring the fact that the man in question, whose father should be consulted, has a, you know, mother. This is further evidence that this daddy's permission thing is a vestige of the principle that the father is the head of the family. Which is bullshit.
All the arguments
Okay, except for one comment of ogged's.
No definite exchange that could be characterized as a proposal, just discussions that evolved into understandings. We had to decide to set a date, which in turn was based on availabilities and schedules.
We communicated to both families that we were very serious somehow, because we were taken for intendeds in the way no one else had been by both sides, almost immediately.
36: The father is, however, the head of my fiancee's family. Bullshit perhaps, but I have to get used to it.
I did not ask permission from my future FIL, and would think it really weird and awkward to do so. We did, however, have a number of "get to know you" sessions, which, come to think of it, were also weird and awkward.
Apo also said he talk to both sets of future in-laws.
At least for us, though, being engaged rather than just talking about it meant we had to be serious about planning a move, immigration, and a wedding.
Yeah, it was like that for us too. I sort of bungled the asking. We began to discuss the possibility of getting married before I 'formally' made a proposal. I think my wife would have preferred an 'out of the blue' proposal.
Also, Molly did not ask me to marry her, but she did wake me up in the middle of the night to tell me her ring size.
should I ask the boy's parents first
Yes.
except for one comment of ogged's.
Ahem.
39: In that case, I'd probably be tempted to bring it up with the mother, just on principle.
37: Apo talked about both sets of inlaws, rather than both fathers. I don't think anyone here has actually come forth suggesting "May I marry your daughter, sir" rather than "We're planning to get married and I wanted to talk to you about it," although I could be misunderstanding what's going on.
"May I marry your daughter" would creep me out completely -- if anyone shows up with a routine like that when Sally's an adult, I will be disturbed.
6 -- I'm going to use that at the wedding. Several years hence, I hope. I'd expect to be asked, and I'd expect to give the answer my father-in-law gave: it's her call. I'd expect that by the time I'm asked, my daughter will have already made perfectly clear what her view is.
If asked today, though, I'd be honest and a little unenthusiastic. She pretty young yet, and the current boyfriend's got some growing up to do as well.
Yeah, it was like that for us too. I sort of bungled the asking. We began to discuss the possibility of getting married before I 'formally' made a proposal. I think my wife would have preferred an 'out of the blue' proposal.
Solution: Tell her you've gotten engaged to someone else. Then an hour later, tell her you've changed your mind ask her to marry you.
19 is right on, but I still think the post is mistaken. Talking to someone's parents when you are planning a marriage doesn't have to be about patriarchy and property; asking a father's "permission" specifically--even if it's a mere symbol--is.
I'm not denying that it's a vestige, just that the vestige is particularly harmful. I don't think anyone has to ask permission, but in most of the cases of people that I know who did ask permission, it didn't have any of the 'Lo, I have slain the bear and chopped the wood and come bearing treasure may I buy your daughter' overtones. Where it did have those overtones, I'm a little creeped out.
Also, Molly did not ask me to marry her, but she did wake me up in the middle of the night to tell me her ring size.
Buck claims that I came in drunk from poker night one night, shook him awake, and said, "You know, if we get married we get gifts!" and then fell asleep. I do not remember this conversation.
Would it help if we called it "asking for a blessing" instead of "asking for permission?" Or are the secularists going to object to that one?
"Asking permission" is nonsense, obviously. But a practice of asking both (or more) sets of parents to give their approval or blessing to the engagement seems like a bit harmless politeness.
We're planning to get married and I wanted to talk to you about it
Well, shit, no one would object to that. Of course that's a good idea. I thought people were talking about going to a woman's dad/parents before there was a "plan" to get married.
'Lo, I have slain the bear and chopped the wood and come bearing treasure may I buy your daughter'
That sounds awesome. Perhaps with still-bleeding bearskin boots and a hatchet?
It never occurred to me to ask the father of Ex-Girlfriend #1* for permission, or even nihil obstat. I guess I dodged a bullet. The conversation where she informed me that she didn't love me would have been so much more awkward if I had.
If anyone asked me for permission to marry my daughter I think I'd bury him under my rosebushes and tell the lass that he'd joined the Foreign Legion.
And so does dsquared!
39: In that case, I'd probably be tempted to bring it up with the mother, just on principle.
We did. I asked my fiancee. Then she told her mother. Then her mother said "I think it would probably be good if Ned asked John's permission, instead of springing it on him." So that was the plan.
* In prominence in my worldview, rather than chronology.
50: Some property is sweeter when it's stolen.
I didn't actually ask for permission, though. I said "Blah blah blah hem haw we've been together for a long time and I don't see any reason why we won't be together foreve, and since we're going to be living apart for a little while I thought it would be best if we got engaged. If you're okay with that."
He was a lot more surprised than I thought he would be.
My friend, who is very conservative, married a guy who is pretty darn conservative. The guy asked permission of the bride-to-be's not-even-remotely conservative father, who responded, "That's kind of up to my daughter, don't you think?"
At the wedding, I very seriously considered adopting a drinking game that would involve doing shots every time someone referred to the biblical verses on the submissive role of the wife. Alas, hard liquor was unavailable at the reception.
I thought people were talking about going to a woman's dad/parents before there was a "plan" to get married.
No, no... this is more 'we're engaged, or we've been talking about getting married and we know it's coming, and he's going to talk to the dad so they can have a weird and awkward moment where everyone is on the same page.'
Don't get me wrong. I think it is respectful to meet the family and to allow them the opportunity to get to know you.
Sometimes, that might involve traveling to meet the mom and step-dad, the dad and step-mom, the former step-dad and his new wife, the former step-mom and her new boyfriend, the daughter and her live-in boyfriend, the son and his baby's mamma.
If that is what it takes, then so be it. But, that is simply giving them an opportunity to get to know you so that they can give their in-put to your potential spouse.
That is not asking for permission.
On the other hand, some of us hide our family in the hopes that the person will have married us before they realize what a freaky family we have.
51 -- Note to men who would propose to my daughter: killing a bear with a gun does not win points; killing one with an obsidian knife will get you a prompt blessing.
It seems like there's a near-consensus that it's a good idea to talk with the future in-laws, but the act has a lot of unsavory patriarchal implications that need to be managed.
It seems like there's a near-consensus that it's a good idea to talk with the future in-laws, but the act has a lot of unsavory patriarchal implications that need to be managed that people read too much into it.
Here's a good test: would it seem sweetly archaic/romantic/merely symbolic for a man (A) to ask another man (B)'s father to marry his son? Or would that just seem completely insane and fucked up and make you feel like B was weirdly absent from the equation?
I think the main problem here is that it's always men doing the proposing. If men and women proposed with equal frequency, then there wouldn't be this "man asking the parents/father" thing, it would just be people talking about stuff.
70: C - None of the above. It would "seem" prudent for both A and B to do so.
What about the timing issue though? Blah de blah let's all "talk with the future in laws", but the matter at issue here is whether this "talkety talk, getting to know you, getting to know all about you" moment comes before or after the relevant conversation between the to-be-betrothed. If "before" then surely that's fucked up. If "after" then it can't possibly be what the legwarmers and armpit hair crowd are getting all fluffed up about because that can't reasonably be described as "asking permission" in anything other than a deceitful and patronising sense. So either the response is "No, feministing, you are wrong, there is no such trend of that happening to an increasing extent, just a superficially similar convention of having conversations with inlaws" or "gosh feministing, you are right, that is one fucked up social trend you have identified there".
Please tell me that 69 is trolling, apo.
And also, my dad didn't care that he hadn't been asked for permission, and probably would have said something along the lines of 'uh, you might want to ask her.' It was probably better that the family bonding moment was my mother having fun asking shivbunny to do manly outdoor lawncare tasks and my dad and shivbunny enjoying a fine bottle of scotch.
On the other hand, my dad did spend the week before the wedding moping about how he was losing a daughter, and at the end of the reception as we were leaving pulled shivbunny aside to say 'They say no man is ever good enough for your daughter. Prove me wrong.' and then shook his hand.
Which just goes to show that you can't escape your parents.
Since ogged and apo are asserting that talking to all parents is important, did your future-wives/fiances talk to your parents so there could be a blessing/awkward moment/whatever?
If men and women proposed with equal frequency
Change begins with you.
71: The issue here is the weird-ass vestigal ceremonial proposal thing. Not what Buck did, which was a little archaic and peculiar but nice, but the 'we've agreed to get married kind of, but it would be improper to go forward with the plan until the man of the couple comes up with a romantic event at which the woman will be 'surprised' to have been proposed to.'
If people would get over that, and move to a model where the only important premarital event was the agreement to marry, however arrived at, I think all of this would look saner.
If men and women proposed with equal frequency
but different phase, presumably.
In my wife's village, the custom was that engagements are announced, and invitations given, in person. One then has a shot of white lightning (made from cherries, pears, zwetchen, or apples) with the invitee to seal the invitation. After about 10 stops, it gets a little difficult: I'm glad we weren't inviting 80 people.
74: Obviously.
76: Both talked with my mother, yes.
70: Not insane or fucked-up, but parodic in a cruelly self-effacing way.
77: I'm on it, man. Now I have to get all the other ladies on board.
At the wedding, I very seriously considered adopting a drinking game that would involve doing shots every time someone referred to the biblical verses on the submissive role of the wife
Denomination? I've encountered that, form the officiant clergyman in sermon form, mostly in Wisconsin Synod Lutheranism, but there may be others.
did your future-wives/fiances talk to your parents so there could be a blessing/awkward moment/whatever?
I'd have to ask the ex, because I don't really remember, but I'm pretty sure they had a heart-to-heart at some point, though obviously it wasn't formalized in the same way that groom-meets-dad is. I don't think anyone is disputing that there are patriarchal structures built around this stuff, and that they should be dismantled, but we shouldn't throw out the talk baby with the patriarchy bathwater.
72: Ah, but now we have *both* men talking to the potential inlaws, whereas before we had *only* the man talking to the potential inlaws.
If "after" then it can't possibly be what the legwarmers and armpit hair crowd are getting all fluffed up about because that can't reasonably be described as "asking permission" in anything other than a deceitful and patronising sense.
Not at all true. It's perfectly possible--and it happens constantly in marriages--for people to retain the forms of incredibly offensive traditions out of sentimentality. Which okay fine, be as sentimental as you want, but the fact that (say) a woman taking her husband's last name no longer means that she is not a legal person in her own right doesn't erase another fact, which is that the tradition is inescapably patriarchal.
If "before" then surely that's fucked up. If "after" then it can't possibly be what the legwarmers and armpit hair crowd are getting all fluffed up about because that can't reasonably be described as "asking permission" in anything other than a deceitful and patronising sense.
God knows if the trend really exists, but if it does I'd swear it's the latter -- a post-agreement to marry, pre-'proposal', pretense of asking permission of the father before doing the ceremonial 'proposing'. Which is less fucked up that genuinely asking permission would have been, but still screwy.
I would have been annoyed if my husband had asked, though if he did I would have assumed it was a misguided attempt at decorum rather than a actual attempt to obtain permission, and was not a sign of any seriously messed up ideas about gender. Both my sisters' husbands asked, I think.
Well obviously, as an old second wave dinosaur, I'm agin it. But the practical issue seems to me to be the kind of terms people are on with their parents. A lot of people are polite and dutiful with their parents, while actually having zip in common with them, and in such cases I'd think it might actually do further damage to the relationship to pretend to involve them when you don't really mean it.
I have to say that Mrs OFE threatened to call it off if either of her parents even knew about it, which meant we couldn't ask her sibs either, which was a pity. But I accept that's an extreme case.
feminists are supposed to wear legwarmers? is that a british thing?
Um, I think Beck's quotes around the word permission is misleading. The BG feministing links to says:
Before Bob Hunt dropped to bended knee on the famed Cliff Walk in Newport, R.I., and asked his high school sweetheart to marry him, he'd taken her father to dinner at a Chili's restaurant and sought his permission.
I'm pretty sure that qualifies as getting Daddy's permission. The story has more in that vein.
max
['It's NOT a communication dealie.']
84: I couldn't really tell you denomination, actually. "Republican," basically.
Jane Fonda maybe? That's as much as I can do with the intersection of legwarmers and feminism. Not so much with the armpit hair.
we couldn't ask her sibs either
This is an excellent point. What about asking siblings? I dare say that if someone who wanted to marry me wanted to ask anyone, he should ask my older sister, who I'm incredibly close with, whose disapproval of my marriage would be a serious problem for me, and who is much more likely to have reasoned objections if any. Dads are a lot of "but that's my little girl!" and shit like that. So, potential suitors note.
then fake up a 'proposal', which all strikes me as idiotic
A friend once gave me the advice that friends will always ask your wife two questions- How did you meet? and How did he ask? It's good to have good stories for both.
92: I think that's enough to make it screwy, but just playing the odds on how I expect people to behave, I'd bet heavily that Bob had discussed marriage with said high-school sweetheart before taking her dad to dinner, and that he wouldn't have actually abandoned the idea if dad had said no. Still problematic, but not actually sincerely 'asking permission'.
87, 88: In that case, surely it's patronising to the father as well as offensive to the bride, as long as this tradition is thought of as "asking permission". I mean really - what kind of "respect" are you showing to someone by patronising him with a transparently bogus consultation exercise? This strikes me as the ultimate lose lose situation. Is anyone this daft, even in America?
86: Actually what we should do is figure out how to have these conversations absent the godawful (and awkward) "permission" nonsense. My poor MIL tried to initiate a very brief conversation with me in the car on the way to the wedding, and I handled it not terribly well, and the attempt sort of died. I think it would have been an excellent idea for us to have that talk, but I was too young to think about it or how to do it, and because the institution *isn't* "talk to your future inlaws" but "a man should ask 'permission'", it truly didn't occur to me to do so.
92: "Bob Hunt" is clearly rhyming slang here.
dsquared, you really are trolling. Let's all agree that a genuine asking of "permission" is weird. But a talk where the stated purpose is to let the future father-in-law or parents-in-law share their thoughts about the coming union isn't daft or creepy. And I know most of y'all are saying that if they have any objections, tough noogies to them, but if your in-laws have objections, you've got problems.
98: dsquared suddenly rips off the latex mask, and reveals himself to be Holden Caulfield. Yes, it's terribly phony. But people do phony stuff sometimes, probably even in the British Isles.
he'd taken her father to dinner at a Chili's restaurant and sought his permission.
Took him out to dinner solo !!??
Actually what we should do is figure out how to have these conversations absent the godawful (and awkward) "permission" nonsense.
I recommend the approach we used with my side: "Hi, we're getting married and we're catering ourselves. Fancy coming over and making yourselves useful?"
78: I dunno, making a ceremony of it doesn't seem problematic; it's cute. What sucks is that it's always men planning this elaborate fake ceremonies and women receiving them.
101: Can we also agree that couching such a talk in the form of a pretense of asking permission is also creepy? Talk, good. Fake request for daughter's hand in marriage, bad.
92: Chili's? Dear god, that marriage is doomed.
friends will always ask your wife two questions- How did you meet? and How did he ask?
I have never in my life had someone ask me the second question.
I do agree that some sort of conversation w/ future in laws might be a good idea. In our case, we knew them all very well before the proposal & everyone knew it was headed that way if not exactly when, so it wasn't necessary....When the couple's been shacking up for over a year it's a bit silly (not that this stopped my brothers in law).
Can we also agree that couching such a talk in the form of a pretense of asking permission is also creepy? Talk, good. Fake request for daughter's hand in marriage, bad.
Sure, see my 53.
People have erected whatever the exact opposite of a strawman is -- a vague nebulous idea that no one can object to. Yes, you should talk to your in-laws parents about it after you decide to get married. (As opposed to what? Confessing five years later that you're been married the whole time?) If you read the actual Feministing post, she's talking about a guy who asked permission from the father before proposing.
Becks said in the post:
I think reaching out to a woman's parents before proposing so the boy can answer any questions the in-laws have and allay any of their concerns... so the boy can answer any questions the in-laws have and allay any of their concerns...(italics mine)
So she is to the right of the rest of us, and thinks the permission should come first, like Michael Corleone in Sicily.
I have never in my life had someone ask me the second question.
Your friends are weird. What do you talk about when couples you know get engaged?
most of y'all are saying that if they have any objections, tough noogies to them, but if your in-laws have objections, you've got problems.
Well, but the thing is, in sane families, one would know about objections without some formal "permission" ceremony; in insane families, one wouldn't, but one would also be less likely to pay attention to said objections. And if one did, it would be for all the wrong reasons.
I also think that any parent worth their salt will try to have these conversations early. After my dad had had a chance to get to know my boyfriend a little bit (this is the first time my dad has met anyone I've dated), I asked "so what do you think?" and we had a lengthy discussion about what he saw as the "problems" (very minimal, but legitimate ones). And this is with no marriage on the horizon, but it was interesting to get my dad's input.
but if your in-laws have objections, you've got problems.
Agreed. Even if your soon-to-be spouse doesnt get along with them, they can still make it more difficult.
Maybe we should start a tradition of taking your girlfriend's father out to Chili's & asking: "may I have sex with your daughter, sir?"
For god's sake, folks. Anyone who doesn't think that a MAN asking a WOMAN'S FATHER for permission/blessing/a glass of scotch isn't continuing a patriarchal tradition is out of their mind. You may decide you want to do it anyway, you may otherwise be a totally enlightened feminist, but don't kid yourself.
Obviously, we can't escape every patriarchal remnant of the past (by which I certainly don't mean that the present is patriarch-free), but it's better to do so with eyes open.
What do you talk about when couples you know get engaged?
"Get us the gift list early on while there's still something not taken on it, will you?"
But a talk where the stated purpose is to let the future father-in-law or parents-in-law share their thoughts about the coming union isn't daft or creepy
Yes it is, if it's happening before you've discussed the matter with your intended wife. You're discussing something very important to her, without involving her. That's pretty much the definition of creepy.
Analogy time: there is an irritating habit among some men of asking one's wife "is he allowed out" before we all go off to the pub. Even in jest among men, it's annoying. If on the other hand, my missus had a friend who was in the habit of asking me if I would allow her to go out that night, and did so with a straight face and seeming sincerity, I would imagine that would get v. annoying, v. quickly, and for fairly obvious reasons.
111: I would bet you anything that she's referring to a post-agreement to marry, pre-ceremonial proposal, faked up 'asking permission' routine, not genuinely talking to the father about whether a marriage would be acceptable before finding out the daughter's position on it.
112: Um... "it's about time," or "good deal, you chose well," or "when's the wedding?" or "yay, I'm so glad!" or "congratulations"? And after a little bit of that, one talks about the same things one always talks about with one's friends?
there is an irritating habit among some men of asking one's wife "is he allowed out" before we all go off to the pub
I hate this kind of crap.
If men and women proposed with equal frequency, then there wouldn't be this "man asking the parents/father" thing, it would just be people talking about stuff.
Not true, I think. Given that the "asking" for permission is largely ceremonial, at least in our demographic, I think men who think it's a nice/polite/appropriate/whatever ceremony would still do it. Note the comments above where the couple kind of asked each other or talked it out and the man still approached the father.
I agree with everything else from m.leblanc. (And I do think if your friends judged you for doing the asking, that'd be crappy.)
Yes it is, if it's happening before you've discussed the matter with your intended wife.
Agreed, of course. I see that LB's 120 is addressing the same point.
I would bet you anything that she's referring to a post-agreement to marry, pre-ceremonial proposal, faked up 'asking permission' routine, not genuinely talking to the father about whether a marriage would be acceptable before finding out the daughter's position on it.
on this basis, it is very hard to see the objection to "love, honour and obey", which is also just a traditionalist bit of whimsy, meaningless verbiage that nobody really takes seriously when you come down to it.
108: This is the sort of situation I had in mind. The couple's met each other's parents, it's not really a surprise to anyone involved, and all that's left is a ritual. I'm sure CharleyCarp's deliver-the-invitations-and-get-hammered experience probably has some origin in the community approving the new bearkiller/treasurebringer, but now's it's an excuse to get drunk and have fun.
which is also just a traditionalist bit of whimsy, meaningless verbiage that nobody really takes seriously when you come down to it.
You wish. I've known fundies who took it extremely seriously.
I agree with 122. I also hate dating men who have dated women where this was the norm. I swear, if someone asks me "is it cool if I go hang out with X tonight" again, I'm going to scream. Look dude, we don't have firm plans, we have no children for whom childcare must be arranged, and I am perfectly capable of spending an evening alone. Sheesh.
121: So, you never ask how and when the engagement happened? Clearly you don't really care about your friends.
the trouble with all these harmless traditional ceremonial things is that it's the devil's own job to make sure that absolutely everyone knows which bits are serious and important and which are just historical holdovers, and there are always a fair old number of Bob Hunts who take the wrong bits seriously.
Yes it is [creepy], if it's happening before you've discussed the matter with your intended wife. You're discussing something very important to her, without involving her. That's pretty much the definition of creepy.
I'll go a step further and say it's a little yucky, if not all out creepy, to have the conversation with the in-laws-to-be solo. How about the couple talks to both ses of parents together, whether it's framed as asking a blessing or just sharing the good news? Easy.
B, re: 121, your friends are totally weird. Cool, perhaps. Wierd in a good way. But totally weird.
125: Kind of. It's a creepy tradition to reawaken consciously -- if it means anything at all, it means something unpleasant. But someone doing it in an unexamined 'hey, it's traditional, and tradition is nice and respectful. Let's all go to the Opera in dinner jackets to celebrate!' kind of way isn't doing anything worse than being thoughtless.
Before I go off to swim, I'll half-trollingly note that this question points up nicely the trouble with an ideological approach to situations: having this talk is "patriarchal," but it's still a good idea.
if your in-laws have objections, you've got problems
So, so true.
I also don't think I've ever attended a wedding where the words "love honor and obey" were used.
As opposed to what? Confessing five years later that you're been married the whole time?
My mom has a coworker who recently learned that her son had been married for a year or so without telling her.
Oh, and I take back the nice thing I said about dsquared on account of comments like "hairy-legged birds" and "legwarmers and armpit hair crowd." Sexist crap and boring, unfunny joke.
So she is to the right of the rest of us, and thinks the permission should come first, like Michael Corleone in Sicily.
I move that the comparison of Becks to Michael Corleone be the standard citation for those attempting to uphold the analogy ban.
I don't think some of my in-laws know yet, after 11 years.
Oh, and I take back the nice thing I said about dsquared on account of comments like "hairy-legged birds" and "legwarmers and armpit hair crowd." Sexist crap and boring, unfunny joke.
Unfunny to those of us in the US and other forward-thinking places, sure. Different cultural norms, mate.
but it's still a good idea
No, it's not -- not in form described by Becks -- as you yourself said.
119: there is an irritating habit among some men of asking one's wife "is he allowed out" before we all go off to the pub
122: I hate this kind of crap.
But there is a certain necessity underlying it. Especially these days, couples need to coordinate schedules. Honestly, I wouldn't disappear to a bar without first being sure that Molly doesn't need me to watch the kids while she gets work done, or if there is some chore that needs doing badly. You may not want to call this asking permission, but it has the same effect.
Also, if no one needs to be working or watching the kids, wouldn't I be squandering valuable relationship time by going out without her? Heck, I feel bad squandering time on Unfogged right now.
129, 131.3: I honestly think it simply doesn't occur to my friends that anyone did the "down on one knee" thing--and if they had, surely they'd tell us about it if only as a sort of embarrasedly comic/fond piece of old-fashioned theater. Usually when people get engaged, they've been dating for quite some time, and you might be surprised that they were at that point. But I just don't believe that reasonable human beings have some kind of "surprise!" proposal moment.
133 is nonsense. Talking with one's potential inlaws isn't patriarchal, and thinking about the ideology behind "traditional" stuff helps one work out the difference between silly meaningless nonsense and genuinely good advice.
I was surprised by the proposal--I'd known we were heading that way & signalled a couple months before that I was ready when he was, but I didn't know he was going to ask when he did.
We got the ring, together, later. Amazing how many people think you're not really engaged without the ring. I said to someone--"I'm not a house, he doesn't need to put a down payment on me."
M. leblanc, I wouldn't really worry about your friends. If your intended would feel weird about being proposed to, that's more of an issue.
133: If that wasn't pure trolling, you're being very dim. There's nothing patriarchial about talking to your inlaws, and pretending that feminism is getting in the way of that sort of communication is absolute fucking bullshit. Do you believe that on any level, or were you just trying to make people swear at you?
But I just don't believe that reasonable human beings have some kind of "surprise!" proposal moment.
Believe it, baby. Well, for some values of "surprise."
Unfunny to those of us in the US and other forward-thinking places, sure. Different cultural norms, mate.
I have confidence that even the culturally challenged can be enlightened.
142: Again; there's a difference between checking about possible competing plans (or simply a partner who is too tired to deal with dinner and bedtime on their own) and pulling crap like "is he allowed out, ha ha."
But I just don't believe that reasonable human beings have some kind of "surprise!" proposal moment.
It's not that I'm advocating this as a standard, or claiming to be a reasonable human being, but we did.
I'm actually in the avant garde of the fifth (or possibly sixth) wave of feminism, the one that's going to come some while after the lapdancing thing blows over. "The legwarmers and armpit hair crowd" is, in the right context, a deeply progressive and celebratory description, probably.
144: See, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that people would be like "this is horrible do it the right way!" but that the guy-proposes-and-gives-ring routine is so standard as to make any deviation from it something you would end up having to discuss with people. Which would be annoying.
Of course, as I said before, not annoying enough to have any impact on my thoughts about how it would be awesome.
Oh, and as the wedding approached I was ready to strangle the next marital-industrial complex employee who made some "your wife will be in charge now, heh heh heh" remark to my husband.
146: Some meaning of, sure. But not in the "out of the blue" way.
And I'd be horrified if any of my friends were ever involved in some kind of public showoffy proposal. I'd try not to show it, but I'm sure I'd fail to succeed.
146: Some meaning of, sure. But not in the "out of the blue" way.
Again, not claiming to be reasonable.
Also, if no one needs to be working or watching the kids, wouldn't I be squandering valuable relationship time by going out without her? Heck, I feel bad squandering time on Unfogged right now.
This does get to be a sticky point in busy lives. Valuable couple time is good for relationships. But valuable time doing doing fun stuff with friends independent of the spouse and kiddos is also good for a relationship. It gives you stuff to talk about later, at the very least. Feeling like every breath of free time must be breathed in devotion to the beloved can get a little suffocating.
"fail to succeed." Time to go find something to eat, man.
151: My favorite wedding-industrial complex moment: the florist whose response to my telling her that Mr. B. did not want to wear a boutonnière was, "but then how will people know who he is?"
But not in the "out of the blue" way.
Oh, agreed. An out of the blue or on the scoreboard at the ballpark proposal sounds like a terrible idea. But, a proposal that, even if it's more or less expected, comes at an unexpected (or untelegraphed) time isn't really that unusual out here in unreasonable-land.
When friends of mine get engaged, I always ask where and how it happened, and they're usually happy to tell me, whether or not it was a surprise.
156 has me cackling in my office.
153:
WILL YOU MARRY ME, BITCHPHD!?!?!?
LOVE ALWAYS, YOUR SNOOKUMS
Still problematic, but not actually sincerely 'asking permission'.
I didn't make it clear enough. My fault. The story is about people really sincerely no-shit asking permission first before they do anything else, including consulting with mom-in-law about ring choices.
Matthew Fierman, 29, was less formal. Before he proposed to his wife, he telephoned her parents. First he told his future mother-in-law. Then he asked his future father-in-law for his blessing. ''It's just a sign of respect,'' says Fierman, a teacher from Brighton. ''Dad got the chance to give the official thumbs-up.''
The Rev. Atu White of Bethel AME Church in Jamaica Plain says he followed Southern custom when he sought permission from his wife's father before asking Dr. Yolanda Lenzy-White to marry him. ''No decent respectable guy would marry someone whose father disapproved,'' says White, 27. ''If she didn't grow up with a dad, then speak to her mother or the closest guardian.''
I'm pretty sure they ain't kiddin'.
a deeply progressive and celebratory description, probably.
The Andy Capp of feminism!
max
['Do they still run that strip? And why?']
159: I'M ALREADY MARRIED. SORRY.
158: I think I said, "um, he'll be standing at the front of the church marrying me? And we're not inviting strangers to our wedding?" But I wish I'd just laughed out loud.
156: A good friend of mine married an identical twin. She'd met him after moving out of New York, so while I'd met him, I didn't really know him or know much about him. I had a very disturbing couple of hours before the wedding bustling around with people getting ready and thinking every few minutes "Wasn't David in a slightly different style of dark suit? Something's weird about him," before I realized, during the ceremony, that there were two of him, only one of whom was the groom. So, it could be an issue. Not likely, though, and better introductions would have avoided my confusion.
149, 154: Okay, well, you're an outlier and a weirdo.
148, 151: And yet, for the people in the communities where permission is asked for marriage, these things are the social norms that exist to balance the partriarchy.
['Do they still run that strip? And why?']
'aven't seen it in years.
153: And I'd be horrified if any of my friends were ever involved in some kind of public showoffy proposal. I'd try not to show it, but I'm sure I'd fail to succeed.
My proposal was public, but not showoffy, I think. I invited Molly to a nice restaurant. I got their early, and while I was waiting, took out the ring I had bought (with the ring size she had so helpfully woken me up in the middle of the night to inform me of) and admired it. Molly actually surprised me from behind while I was looking at the ring. Meanwhile, the waitstaff saw what was going on a brought us a free bottle of champagne.
It was really nice to have strangers wish us well like that. So there is something to be said for public.
165 was me. Not that anyone knows me, but still.
Speaking of salespeople, I purchased a belated birthday gift for my dude a few weeks ago, of a completely awesome turntable, and when I was asking about how to set up the fancy weight on the arm, the (old) salesguy was like "is the person you're buying this for a woman?" I said it was my boyfriend and he was like "oh, he should be able to set it up."
'Cause we all know vaginas interfere with your ability to handle electronics. My friend who was with me and I shared an amused/horrified look.
163: I'LL HAVE TO ASK HER PERMISSION FIRST.
70: it is completely weird to ask a man's father to marry his son, plus I doubt either father or son would be interested.
'Cause we all know vaginas interfere with your ability to handle electronics.
Vaginas are tucked out of the way and don't interfere. It's breasts that are the problem. Duh.
In retrospect, rather than so much as hint at asking for permission from my wife's father, I should have asked his forgiveness. And hers. O well, too late now.
O hey &mdash kids. Gotta go.
['Do they still run that strip? And why?']
Probably habit, like Peanuts.
171: One of the more bizarre things about being married is how pervasive those stereotypes end up being. For shivbunny it's a lot of teasing about being whipped, me controlling the money, and him masculinely fixing things.
Feeling like every breath of free time must be breathed in devotion to the beloved can get a little suffocating
This is thoughtcrime, worse than thinking that she's fat or that his balding and slouch really are getting worse.
Oh, agreed. An out of the blue or on the scoreboard at the ballpark proposal sounds like a terrible idea.
What is awesome is when neither person in the couple knows the big showoffy proposal is coming. Except then I felt bad for them. The rest of the evening must have been rough.
I once was at this improv show in Milwaukee where the guy got called up as a "volunteer" and then did a proposal. The woman looked horrified, embarrassed, and though she said yes, looked like she was later going to tell him "I just said that 'cause all those people were staring at me, sorry."
I move that the comparison of Becks to Michael Corleone be the standard citation for those attempting to uphold the analogy ban.
Becks conveniently forgot to mention this guys' Family. Now who's being naive, Ned?
What about asking siblings?
IME, when siblings are really close, it can be a really wonderful and supportive thing to do.
My brother-in-law-to-be conspired with me to plot the engagement surprise for my sister. (Yes, they had already talked about marriage, but also yes, it was important to her to be surprised about the actual time/place of the proposal.)
We took the co-conspiring time as an opportunity to have one of those yes-I-approve-welcome-to-the-family talks. Of course they would still have gotten married without my "approval", but it was nice -- given that we'd only known him 18 months -- to have a little bit of time for reflection.
Only halfway through the thread but, since there seems to be some confusion about what I meant, I think the person doing the asking (usually the guy but the woman if the situations were reversed) talking to the future in-laws (father and mother) after the informal "how about we get married?" discussion with the future spouse but before the Big Proposal, if there is one. And also I'm thinking of more of a blessing than permission, really.
In other words, pretty much what Apostropher did.
I completely pissed off my wife by denying her a ring-receiving moment she could share with everyone. For some audiences, "in bed, we'd just finished, and I thought he was falling asleep when he pulled the ringbox out from under the pillow. . ." is a good story. For mom and dad, not so much. She ended up inventing something about a particular restaurant and brand of champagne.
182: The week of the wedding, my mom gleefully asked shivbunny to trim the hedges in front of the house, because now she had a son, and could make him do things and it was better that he trimmed them, because he could operate the electric trimmer. The woman's had four daughter who have done outdoor work for years, but I get married and suddenly we all forget how to operate power tools safely.
She had the decency to blush when I called her on it. But a son! to fix things!
Until LB suggested it as an interpretation of your phrasing Becks, the idea that there would be a "Big Proposal" after there was already an agreement never occurred to me.
I am really annoyed by the habit some men have of asking girlfriends' or wives' permission before going out. A lot of the guys I go to school with do it really extravagantly, with a lot of eye-rolling, every time a group is headed out somewhere.
I finally got Max to stop asking me if he could go out with friends, but then he started sitting me down all serious-like and saying, "Now, AWB, I know that we often spend Friday evening together, but I'm going to be spending time with one of my friends this Friday. I haven't seen him in a long time, you see, and..." as if I were about to burst into tears. But the more I tried to explain how infuriating it is to be treated like a crystal figurine, the more he concentrated on doing it. "I know how upset you were last time I told you I was going out with my friends..."
GAH! Just fucking tell me you have plans! You don't have to act like I'm going to commit suicide!
183: That's horrific. What is wrong with people?
should have had a comma before as well as after "Becks."
188: This is one of the few things that makes me think "man, having a mother would be weird." I was living with my godmother (very close family friend) the summer after college and when my boyfriend came to visit, she was like "could you please set up my stereo?" I'd been there for a month and didn't even know she had a stereo that needed setting up. It drove me nuts. Then every time he came over after that, she was asking him to do stuff, where she never asked me to do shit. Is this some weird making people feel manly/needed thing? The only time I ask anyone outright to help me with stuff is when I get my Very Tall Friend to come over and change lightbulbs/get shit from my totally inaccessible closets that I can't get to even when standing on a chair.
190: He probably figured if he told you often enough that you couldn't live without him, even for 4 hours on a Friday night, you'd eventually believe it, too.
Mothers are weird. In defense of my mother, she would ask me if she needed help with the computer or the stereo or most electronics. But she'll ask shivbunny about cars. (In our case, this is totally fair because he has the skills to perform major car repairs, but I suspect she'd ask regardless of the facts.)
193, summer after college s/b summer after high school
Is this some weird making people feel manly/needed thing?
I doubt that's the sole reason, I think the gender expectation is usually salient. But I'll confess it does make me feel useful and needed, valued for what I know and know how to do. Assuming the asker has any reason to know that. I found I had a reputation in my wife's family for that pretty quickly.
It's sexist of me, but I'm perfectly happy to let Mr. B. do shit like take care of the car and fix things.
190: I'm sure in the end he appreciated your bravery, keeping up a bold front even though your heart was broken and not only that, you were going to have to screw some total stranger that night.
Chili's? Dear god, that marriage is doomed.
I'll say. He should've taken him to Outback, at least.
194: We had an obsessively distant relationship, in that both of us were constantly asking for more space, but we'd both been involved for long stretches with abusive people with borderline personality disorder (in which fear of abandonment leads to violence). So there's probably a reason, but fuck, it was annoying.
It's sexist of me
No, it's just lazy of you.
Maybe we should start a tradition of taking your girlfriend's father out to Chili's & asking: "may I have sex with your daughter, sir?"
I like this idea a lot.
203: No, you take them to Applebee's for that.
I do almost no male things at all except take out the garbage and move heavy things. My sister is a good sport.
My fiance and I had discussed marriage in a fair amount of depth a few months before I proposed to her, and the proposal itself did have some aspects of theater to it; there were a great many people at an occasion ostensibly for me, an occasion planned by her, and I proposed to her there. We live near her father and step-mother, and spend a lot of time with them. Her mother lives far away. I took the time to have a conversation with all of her parents, but not in a permission way.
More of a heads-up thing than anything else. Having spent copious amounts of time around her family I had, I felt, already garnered their approval. At the time it felt like the right thing to do, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we have a good relationship and I guess I wanted to give them an opportunity to say anything they needed to say to me. It felt like the right thing to do...I was already very much a part of their family, and it would've been weird to keep them out of the loop. Two, I was keeping the whole thing a secret from a great many people attempting to make the surprise work, and I desperately needed to tell someone what I was planning! So it all dovetailed nicely.
At any rate, I sat down with her Father and Step-mother, in person, the day of, and called her Mother for a chat. Conversation with her dad and step-mom was barely that, I got about four words in before they were jumping up and down. It was very similar with her mom. They were excited, I was excited. If that wasn't positive reinforcement, then I don't know it.
I don't feel like that was maintaining a patriarchal tradition, and I think I'd be a insulted if anyone were to actually suggest that, in our specific instance, it was. But I can see that it may be a matter of degrees.
For the record, asking actual permission? Creepy as all get out. Talking with your future family: a good idea, at the very least. Complete surprise proposals also seem like a bad idea to me. Some planning, some prior discussion is very important. Especially if it's going to be a surprise. Just like in a courtroom, you don't want to ask a question you don't know the answer to.
Gswift has already won all parental-permission threads for all time, guys.
204: God, I ate at Applebee's last week for the first time, because I had a coupon. Never again.
No, you take them to Applebee's for that.
That works too.
So the theatrical, foregone conclusion, formality Big Proposal is not only heard of, but present company have done/desired/expected it?
Passed me by completely.
210: My age bracket and social group, I'd say it's commoner than not to have done the Big Proposal. If we'd gotten to the foregone conclusion stage before the theatrical proposal, I would have skipped it, but with the sense of having done something unconventional.
210: I wouldn't say "theatrical" or "expected," but it does seem like a decision that merits a bit more fanfare and/or sentimentality than, "Where should we go for dinner?"
When I was young we'd just pjone up and say, "Oh, Mom, Dad, I got married." We were close to nature.
I'm with B. I know it's sexist but when we were at the beach this weekend, I was more than happy to let the boys take out the trash, start the fire, and haul wood while the other girls and I cooked and cleaned.
But the ancient tradition of pjonage is lost.
214: But the fire is the fun bit. All fires in our marriage are mine.
Well, at law school there were always girls showing up with giant rocks saying "I got engaged over the weekend/christmas/the summer/halloween/whatever" and lots of oohing and ahhing. The proposal was always a thing.
The reaction was about the same as to when people would show up to school with a newborn.
214: The pyro in me would never have tolerated that.
And by Big Proposal, I don't think it has to be something elaborate or crazy. I just meant the point where it goes from "talking about marriage" to "we're officially engaged". So it would go talking about marriage, talking to the parents, then offically engaged. I think that has better chances of setting up a good future with the extended family than talking about marriage, officially engaged, then talking to the parents.
I'm with LB in 216. I want to start the fucking fires and work the grill, man. But no, there's always some dude around sidling up to the grill...
I would have enjoyed the opportunity to play with fire but, given how windy it was, figured it was a job best left to our Boy Scouts.
Mine went like this:
"Do you want to get married?"
"well.. yes"
(pause)
"Do you want to get married to me?"
(actual Boy Scouts, not a hyperbolic compliment)
Also, 130 is exactly right.
Including the part where dsquared calls women who might have a different take "cunts"?
When I was with my abusive ex in college, we got as far as the talking-about-marriage stage, and he did come and meet my parents, and tried to win their approval, especially my father's. My parents really liked him (not knowing, of course, what was going on when he wasn't so charming) and my dad went out of his way to give his permission to me to marry him. But as time went on, and denial wore thin, I realized that, if he were to propose, I wouldn't be able to choke out a "yes," though I very much thought I wanted to. We gave each other those weird pre-engagement gifts---a diamond necklace for me, a pocketwatch for him. His parents gave me permission to marry him and put my picture up along with their son-in-law's, as a member of the family.
At that point, it was like my subconscious finally rebelled. It was all working out so nicely, except for the relationship itself in any way, that I very narrowly escaped a life of total claustrophobic misery.
I think they're called Mike Hunts, Dsquared.
I was at an extended-family gathering not too long ago, and as the oldest nephew I was supposed to light the charcoal and do the barbequing, neither of which I had done in 3-4 decades. This was supposed to have been the changing of the guard at the place where my family had been going for more than a century. Symbolic pictures were taken, and then someone else cooked.
216, 218, 220, 221: We should hire out Unfogged meet-ups to bar-owners that really need the insurance money.
My sociopath brother-in-law absolutely charmed my parents. Sociopaths are good at charming people.
The only problem I have with my own sexist sloth is that I'm reading that book "Women Don't Ask" and it talks early on about the ways that very small things like that set up gender categories in kids' minds. And I thought yeah, I really do need to drive more often (I'm a better driver anyway) and like that. Especially since PK thinks that Papa is the person who can fix stuff, rather than Mama.
Everyone wanted to hear the engagement story and how he proposed, whether he got down on one knee (he did) whether we went anywhere romantic (not really, just a walk around the farm), and what happened afterward (I caught a cold and was sick for three days.)
225: Er, the rhyming slang equation of 'Bob Hunt' with 'cunt' was certainly meant, but wasn't it aimed at the guy named 'Bob Hunt' in the article and his ilk, rather than any class of women?
Peacemaking here is probably a silly endeavor, given the actual offensiveness of dsquared's language and personality generally, but he's IMO a reasonably reliably good guy on these issues.
213: That's sort of how I envision it happening with me. And my parents will say something like, 'Well I'll be darned' or 'It's about time.'
229: Yeah, the fact that the only boyfriend I've ever had that my parents liked was him (because he was a quiet, sweet country boy) is proof to me that parental approval should not be a universal requirement. Some people's parents are good judges of character. Mine really aren't.
They once invited a stranger from church to their house for lunch after services, and were so deeply charmed by him that they were thinking about trying to set him up with me. A week later, they see his picture in the paper with the headline "Serial killer captured!" Could happen to anyone, but my folks seem to be particularly wowed by psychopaths.
very small things like that set up gender categories in kids' minds
Yeah, I worry about this, too, and try to model non-traditional behavior in front of my nieces and nephews.
I was over at my sister-in-law's the other day, and her 3-year-old twins watched while she was fixing a cabinet door, and then they and I played with "momma's" tools. I didn't do any prompting; they just referred to them that way. (This even though my brother is handy and does a lot of that stuff.) Very cool.
Speaking of Chevy's, here is an honest-to-God true story of dating among the Minnesota gente, that I saw as a success story on a personals site. I've been waiting for an excuse to share it. Sort of charming, actually. The tone is unfakeable.
After a few emails back and forth and a couple of phone calls, we decided to meet. We agreed to meet at Chevy's restaurant on a Saturday night. I was twenty minutes late for our date because I got distracted watching VH1's "I love the 80's." Lucky for me, Kelly was very forgiving.We did have a couple of trying moments on that first date. I asked Kelly if she likes to camp. In an effort to avoid sounding snobby, she said, "Its okay, I guess." My response was: "well, I hate camping." She smiled quite big and said, "So do I!"
I think we both had an idea that things were going to work out because I ordered my dinner without tomatoes. Coincidentally, Kelly does not like tomatoes either.
After dinner, we decided to keep the date going and went to Bennigans for 2-for-1's. The conversation really picked up, and we were having a good time. Nature, however, would call. I excused my self and went to the bathroom. When I got back, Kelly told me that the guy sitting down from us at the bar had come over and was hitting on her. She said that she told him I was her boyfriend. After I sat back down, he came over and told me I was very lucky. I played along and put my arm around Kelly. He finally left, and we had a great rest of the evening.
Since then, we have been best friends. We got married on July 2nd, 2006 in Minnetonka, Minnesota.
I knew a guy in the Peace Corps who claimed that his mother worked with Jeffrey Dahmer, and that she'd tried to fix them up a couple of times.
Women Don't Ask
I want to read that book! I realized that I do all kinds of stuff for my boyfriend just 'cause I'm you know, trying to be nice and helpful, and then I get pissed because he's not the same way, but I don't ask for shit. So my new strategy is just to ask for things I want. Like "I'm tired, will you take my laundry down?" Not because "I did this for you now you do this for me" (which is how I often think of things since I am obsessed with housework equality), but just because I want it. So far, working well.
Yes, I threw hysterical screaming fits in front of my son in order to show him that men could be sensitive too.
my folks seem to be particularly wowed by psychopaths
Well, they are kind of impressive, each in their own special way.
oh, people were talking about Chili's, not Chevy's. Well, excuse enough. Chevy's+Bennigans = Chili's + Applebees.
241: That is not true. Chevy's is ridiculous and inauthentic, but at least the food is decent. I would not be caught dead in Chili's, Applebee's, or Bennigans, but have, in fact, gone to Chevy's twice in NYC. Both times, it was because some other place was closed or somehow inaccessible, but I did not regret it either time. Becks can vouch.
aimed at the guy named 'Bob Hunt' in the article and his ilk
Oh, I was supposed to read the article?
Chili's chicken crispers are absolutely wonderful. Shame me as you will but whenever I'm in the suburbs I'm bound to stop by one of those.
Okay, now I just need the leg warmers.
Not only would asking permission piss me off, I think it would freak my father out. My mother, God help me, might be into the idea, but those instincts should be squelched. I don't want some stupid engagement ring, I don't want surprises, and I seriously doubt that in my current relationship, a decision like getting married would happen in fewer than two months and ten arguments.
8: The thing is, opening the discussion is a proposal, isn't it? "I'd like to be married to you -- how do you feel about it?" Most people do it these days in a drifty, unfocused kind of way, come to an informal agreement, and then fake up a 'proposal', which all strikes me as idiotic, but you still can't get from there to here without someone saying at some point "So how about it?"
This is more or less my point, although from the biginning of this thread LB has had the important news that proposals are expected/important per se. Is my assumption that this was by the wayside an artifact of the cultural moment when, so many conventions that have since returned with a vengence having been overthrown, it was natural to assume this had too?
I'm guessing a ten to twenty year window at most, 1970 - 1990, probably narrower.
Yes, we've had the "what fast food do you tolerate and maybe even enjoy" discussion, but I don't think we've had the "which 'casual dining' chain do you tolerate and maybe even enjoy" discussion.
involved for long stretches with abusive people with borderline personality disorder (in which fear of abandonment leads to violence).
Are they turning them out in factory somewhere or somethin'?
max
['Out of the woodwork.']
243: the point was as an excuse to post the story in 236. Chevy's as cultural signifier. I have no opinion on cuisine, never eaten there. Everybody read 236!
God, I'm always pimping my own posts. Cause for banning if there ever was.
Oh, I thought you meant "=" in quality. I see.
"what fast food do you tolerate and maybe even enjoy" discussion,
KFC. Mmmm, greasy good.
I promise not to mention bacon tho.
Well he couldn't have used the colon, because of the analogy ban.
"what fast food do you tolerate and maybe even enjoy"
All of it. But especially the Cap'n D's/Long John Silver's.
Apo, if you're down to Long John Silver's, you're not talking about "enjoying." More like "wallowing in."
I assume people have eaten at White Castle. Totally sickening and disgusting. I like fast food, eat at McD's maybe once a month or so, and I was revolted. It was almost like they were trying to repulse you.
I assume people have eaten at White Castle.
Never even seen one.
246: I think having had a proposal, even a private one, is more about telling the world, and your parents, and to some extent, each other, that all those discussions about your life plans and expectations were serious. Having other people publicly recognize your commitment is important to a lot of people, and a proposal is a way to do that, as is the wedding. It's really not about the couple as it is as much about everyone else.
Apo, you of all people must go to White Castle. It's like the fast food version of one of those NSFW links you keep posting.
257: Southerners can substitute "Krystal's" for "White Castle" in most sentences, salve veritatum.
I suspect I completely bungled the Latin in 260, which is very embarrassing after taking three years of it in college.
White Castle is foul. My dad liked it, so my parents would drag us there when we were little. I remember complaining at three or four that everything there tasted like onions. The burgers, the fries, the orange drink, all reeked of spoiled onions.
everything there was rancid and spoiled. The grease stank. It was like they took the rotted leftovers from the dumpsters behind the good fast food places.
White Castle, that is.
Has anyone yet mentioned that, instead of chicken fingers, White Castle has chicken rings. Chicken RINGS. They aren't even pretending it's real food.
Never tried White Castle, but I feel that I should have done so by now bc I've been in NJ for 15 years already and it's the kind of thing I should have made a point to do. I've heard them referred to as Rat Castle and Ratburgers. Yet I still think I should eat there at least once.
265: I had once convinced myself that Burger King chicken tenders were more real food than McNuggets, until they started serving Rugrats & dinosaur shaped ones.
Best fast food chain is Chick Fil A, I think. But Chicago has a ton of non-chain burger/wings places that are much better than that.
IDP, I wasn't quite sure what you meant in 246, but it sounded interesting. Care to elaborate?
This thread is making me want to eat at White Castle, just to find out if it's really as bad as everyone says. I would also push a big red button with a sign that said "Don't push this button, even just to find out what it does."
By the time of the marriage proposal, the family either knows the man or they don't. If they do not know him by the time of the proposal, then they are not sufficiently involved with their daughter to get involved now.
Um. C proposed when we'd been together for about a month, so there had certainly not been any talk of marriage between us, and he hadn't met my parents yet. We were on holiday in Prague, and he started proposing a couple of days into the holiday and didn't stop. Once home, I said yes. So he emailed my dad to ask him for my hand etc and my dad pretended he thought C meant their learning-disabled foster daughter and then it degenerated into talk of Spam (the tinned meat). I think both of them thought this was a good start.
Seriously asking permission before you ask the daughter is clearly a repellent thing to do.
Having a big theatrical proposal after talks have made it clear that marriage is going to happen seems very very weird to me. I remember my cousin telling us that he and his girlfriend were going to get engaged on a particular date. "Erm, if you've already decided to get married, aren't you already engaged????"
Killjoys. White Castle is fantastic. Or would be, if I still ate meat.
This thread is making me want to eat at White Castle, just to find out if it's really as bad as everyone says.
This is an excellent reason to eat there. Once. It's astounding to experience the food and then realize that a regular stream of people are voluntarily walking in and paying money to eat it. I don't understand how it stays in business, but it does.
I think White Castle is vegan -- there's certainly not much meat in anything they sell.
257: Southerners can substitute "Krystal's" for "White Castle" in most sentences, salve veritatum.
That's "salve veritate" to you.
White Castle is great, and the apostropher, of all people, needs to have him some. The key is to not think of it as food, but as an experience to share and later reminisce about with your hombres. Don't get it by yourself, for crying out loud. Also, make sure you're drunk (but not too drunk) when you have some sliders.
White Castle hamburgers, called sliders, were always the lowest-status, most down-market hamburger chain. In the sixties, on first encountering them with immigration, I found them 12 cents to 15 for the plain MacDonald's, then proudly advertising that a few million had been sold. Squarish, and appreciably smaller.
A friend and I bought a bag for a lark a few years ago, but couldn't get through them, and the smell was terrible. Some down-market, poor people's foods are good, but those aren't among them.
More often than not I would guess is it's a courtesy extended to the other person's family than strictly "permission".
This thread is making me want to eat at White Castle, just to find out if it's really as bad as everyone says.
Watching Supersize Me, all I wanted to do was go out to McDonald's.
Having a big theatrical proposal after talks have made it clear that marriage is going to happen seems very very weird to me.
Indeed. I once worked with a woman who had already agreed to marriage with her bf. He bought a ring that she picked out. They went on an island vacation. They found a suitable place on a sand dune at sundown. He took out the ring and proposed to her. They were thinking they'd love to have a picture of the special moment when another tourist came strolling by and took their picture with their camera. She thought it was great and it's exactly what she wanted. Needless to say, she was not at all into surprises of any kind.
an experience to share and later reminisce about with your hombres. Don't get it by yourself, for crying out loud.
I was with my then-girlfriend and intended just such an expedition, but she got one whiff at the door and refused to enter. Actually went and sat in the car. I only had like one and a half sliders before I threw out the rest of the bag, but no kissing was allowed for hours afterwards.
Drunken hombres good, too-sober girlfriend bad.
Watching Supersize Me, all I wanted to do was go out to McDonald's.
I like McDonalds. Burger King too. I have solid fast food cred.
The key is to not think of it as food, but as an experience to share and later reminisce about with your hombres.
Like Nick Tahoe's in Rochester, NY.
I meant that after the sixties, with proms, big weddings, etc. having been widely abandoned as too ridiculous in the society I kept, I didn't feel at all odd about not proposing either.
But I think I know what happened. My future wife's mother had died in a crash, after we had moved in together but before we had decided to do it. We were very sure about each other, and her mother approved, but we hadn't gone there yet. The death brought us all, her family and I, together. From that time I was treated as her permanent partner, and thought of myself that way, even though I was a long way there already.
A year after her death, we started making plans to get married in the most matter-of-fact way, interviewing rabbis, taking an heirloom ring out of a drawer and putting it on, and so on. The point, to ourselves and others of commitment had already happened and been demonstrated in another way.
I used to like white castle chicken sandwiches. It's been a long time though. The square hamburgers with holes in them were disturbing, but I didn't eat hamburgers anyway.
I think they're called Mike Hunts, Dsquared.
Mike Hunt is Sheriff of Aiken County. Really, best campaign ever.
White Castle is as bad as people say. Now and then, I actually crave a Chilli's veggie burger though.
When my sister got married, my dad walked her down the aisle, and at the altar the minister asked who was giving this woman to be wed. My dad replied, "She comes of her own free will."
My father, god bless him, did roughly the same thing with my oldest sister. When the officiant asked "who gives this bride away", he stood up and said, "Her mother and I support her decision."
In his milieu, this was a remarkably progressive act.
My father in law is a long way down the list of people I'd ask for relationship advice, and that was as true before we were married as it is now.
238: Read it, it's great.
"which 'casual dining' chain do you tolerate and maybe even enjoy"
El Torito's. I know. I'm sorry.
My wife made me call my mother-in-law up to get her permission before we got married. I thought it was a pretty stupid tradition, but my mother-in-law was in to it. There really wasn't any additional advice transferred. I asked; my mother-in-law said yes; and then I handed the phone over to my wife.
Casual dining chain: Friendly's, although I'm miffed they no longer offer the clam roll.
A few years ago I went on a month-long tear at Taco Bell. One day I went in for lunch and then went through the drive-thru for dinner bc I didn't want people to recognize me from having been there already. I don't think I've eaten there since that tear.
C proposed when we'd been together for about a month
Stories like that are always amazing to me. If I made long-term relationship decisions after a month of knowing someone, I'd have already been in at least one unhappy marriage.
Did you know each other before you started dating?
Actually just read the article Feministing linked to; from it (my bold):
Hunt, a 25-year-old salesman from Attleboro, has long known that Stefanie Brennock, whose parents are divorced, expected that anyone who wanted to marry her would talk to them first. ''It's just the parents handing over the daughter to a new guy and taking care of me,'' says Brennock, 24, an assistant manager at a bridal store.
Thing is, it's not the parents, it's the father, doing the handing over. Other thing is, it's an adult woman agreeing that she's okay with being handed over between guys for caretaking purposes. Ewww.
I guess I count myself lucky for never having been in a position where permission-asking (in the form of having a talk with the prospective in-laws) was called for.
In both past relationships in which marriage was eventually on the table, we both had come to know each other's families fairly well. The closest I ever came to a scheduled sit-down was bringing my ex-before-last's parents together with my family for a meetup. I'm not even sure why we decided to do that; we weren't actively talking about getting married at that time.
Of course neither of these past marriageable relationships wound up in actual marriage. That's what happens when you consider that you have all the time in the world to live together, act like you're married, don't see the point of actually doing it, then eventually get divorced. I mean break up.
When Rory was an infant, her daycare was right next to a Taco Bell and I would pick up fast food when I went over on my lunch break to nurse. I had a thing for the chalupa back then, which I got over very quickly once I realized that every time I ate a chalupa, she wound up with bloody stools.
Which, come to think of it, I should have mentioned to Brock. If you're reading, Brock, drop the chalupa!
but do real chickens have fingers?
They do have feet. Which you can get to eat. But I don't recommend it.
I didn't ask permission from my father-in-law. Once, when I joked about it to Mrs. Ruprecht, she said "Well of course you didn't. He would have said 'no'."
She then told me the secret, withheld from me up to that point, that his reaction upon hearing the news of our engagement was to ask "You expect me to be happy about that?"
I was flabbergasted. I thought I we were on good terms. Apparently there was some lingering resentment over a prior incident where he took offense about something.
293: Brock, stop drinking breast milk from chalupa eaters!
The proposal was always a thing.
My impression exactly. I didn't want to deny Mrs. Ruprecht the pleasure of lording it over her friends with the story of my romantic proposal, so I gave her the whole down-on-one-knee-in-a-classically-romantic-location surprise proposal.
I think it's just El Torito. He's not some dude.
"Torito" is a little toro.
"Burrito" is a little burro.
I speak Spanish dammit.
[Inappropriate joke that didn't really work anyway.]
Judge Ito is ...
I wanted to add that my askinf my f-i-l wan't a surprise to the wife, who had to translate, after all. I did it because I knew he'd like it. Both his kids married foreigners, but more importantly, both went to high school, which he didn't (nor had nearly anyone in his age cohort). The wife wasn't just the first woman to go to college in her family, but one of the very first in her town. Although he didn't really have a choice to say no, reaching back across all the country that had been crossed, as well as across the ocean, was a gesture worth making.
So I guess, having thought about it, I don't really expect the same kind of thing.
They have a verb for the going through town giving invitations and having shots of white lightning. It's a fine way to share the joy.
I have several bottles of home "burnt' white lightning around the house, in case someone wants to invite me to a wedding. (I didn't make it: villagers did). I could probably get a bottle sent over for the DCon, if people think it'd help.
305: Anita Hill. Bad taste, and it really wasn't working anyway.
I am in favor of the open invitation theory to weddings.
If you want to come, come. Just give me some idea of the number so I know how many pigs to roast and how much wine/beer to buy.
I would not get to invite many if I had to throw back some white lightning with every invitee. Do you have to invite everyone on the same day?
308 -- You have to do enough so that you're considered a worthy bridegroom. Sort of like how at an earlier stage, you have to show that you can eat at least one entire Quetschekuche: a plum pie the size of a medium pizza. At a sitting.
I've mentioned before the test my dad had for high school girlfriends my brothers and I would bring around: raw oysters.
Stories like that are always amazing to me. If I made long-term relationship decisions after a month of knowing someone, I'd have already been in at least one unhappy marriage.
Did you know each other before you started dating?
I'd known him to say hello for about 6 months, had been becoming closer friends for the last 3. But still, yeah, it was more luck than judgement. We'd got together at the end of September, proposal was the end of October, and we were married at the beginning of January. (Had the first baby in November.) This was all 12 years ago, so we're doing ok.
"Eating at White Castle is just like drinking-- you pile into a car, drive a distance, indulge too much, and get sick. Then the next morning in the can you swear to yourself you'll never do that again, and then you're off to fucking White Castle a few days later. Men are stupid and weak, and White Castle knows this."
-Evan Dorkin.
My parents married after WWII after knowing each other for about two weeks. They stayed married till death did them part (44 years). Of course, they were near-Catholic in many respects.
Actually friends of ours met at a party, went home together, and were engaged 8 days later. Goodness knows whether they'll make it until death though!
I think that we're at a cultural transition between marriage as a given social-legal financial institution with obligations and rules, and marriage as an agreement between individuals which has to be renegotiated from time to time on the basis of how they feel at the time.
The second of these doesn't really sound like "marriage" to me. Unless there were objective disasters like death, war, mental illness or bankruptcy, when I see someone who's been married three times or more I usually wonder why they ever bothered to marry at all, if they didn't want to be married. A lot of Hollywood stars, for example, really don't need marriage and don't seem to want it, but they keep doing it anyway.
I'm not really an advocate of marriage, for the reasons I gave, but I've seen marriages that worked and by and large they seemed to be the old-fashioned type.
Ditto to 311. Nandos = the awesome.
A friend of mine approached the corporate HQ with a serious proposal to open franchises in the US, but they were not interested. So we suffer and wait on this side of the Atlantic.
315. Wasn't it Joan Crawford who said of Elizabeth Taylor, "Nobody ever told her you can do it without getting married first"?
On the other hand Artie Shaw pointed out that for his generation it was easier to marry than to shack up.
re: 314
I moved in with an ex within about 10 weeks of meeting her. Marriage, on the other hand, that's pretty quick going.
315: You know, I've grown to be an advocate of marriage as a legal institution precisely on the basis that it's not always till death do us part. (Though we might often wish it were, in some right and not so right ways...) Sometimes it's nice to have a judge to help sort out custody, property, and rules governing post-split conduct.
Also, as an attorney, I am an advocate of making lots of things legal institutions.
mmmm, Krystal. I love Krystals.
I asked husband x to marry me after we had been going out for 2 weeks (though we had known each other for 3 years). I was a total wreck because I was suffering the miseries of heroin withdrawal and moping about the break-up of my previous, 6-yr long relationship. "so, you want to get married?" I asked? "of course", he replied, and the rest is history. we went shopping for a ring together a year later and told the family.
Also, as an attorney, I am an advocate of making lots of things legal institutions.
You know, if cobloggers had to be legally bound into cob-loggership, Unfogged would be full of phoned-in posts and disgruntled malingering.
CharleyCarp should definitely send some of his brandy to DCon.
I knew a couple who met on a beach surfing in the early morning, and got married that night (with proper legalities dealt with the next week). They're both lunatics, but the marriage lasted a lot longer than you might guess.
I knew a couple who met on a beach surfing in the early morning, and got married that night (with proper legalities dealt with the next week). They're both lunatics, but the marriage lasted a lot longer than you might guess.
So, suicide pact one week later?
There's a big difference between meeting the in-laws before the marriage and "asking permission" from the father. We must remember that this tradition comes from the same thinking that dictated that if a woman is raped, it is the father who must sue the rapist for the injury done to his family name (not her.) It's also the same reason that if in the case that rape lead to pregnancy and birth, the father and ONLY the father could sue the rapist not only for the disgrace, but also for the loss of the daughter's services for the duration of the confinement. (very few convictions were awarded for rape, but suing [and winning the lawsuit] for the loss of a daughter's service due to rape and 'seduction' was fairly common.)
Asking permission comes from asking the father if the daughter's services (housekeeping and the rest of it) can be transferred from the father's household to the husband's. It's a safe guard against a law suit from the father. This tradition had very little to do with love or romance, and neither did marriage itself. Why are we bringing these concepts into it now?
Re: proposals and timing
I knew a man who came back from a short tour of duty in the Pacific and knew that he wanted to marry his wife within the first hour of meeting her. He asked her that same week.
In 2003 they were still happily married (after more than 50 years) and seemed goofily in love to me; the word I would use to describe them is "sweethearts."
I'd never do it, but it really did seem to work for them.
My maternal grandparents knew each other for five days before they got hitched. They were married for over 60 years, and seemed to be extremely unhappy for the vast majority of it. I think the need to make the other person miserable was an important bond in their relationship. In the end, my grandmother was genuinely anxious for grandfather to die.