Re: Just Not Done

1

I'm waiting to see what one of your cobloggers will link the words "I" and "my" to in this post.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:13 PM
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Not to mention "controlling neurotics."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:14 PM
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Definitely a violation of etiquette. A housemate and I used to share a blog and we would never have considered altering one another's posts. Doing it to a guest poster is somehow even worse.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:15 PM
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Also, my introspection, which is much smarter than ogged's, tells me that this isn't that big a deal.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:15 PM
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My introspection is also smarter than Pants's.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:16 PM
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My introspection is the same smart as Teo's. Also, I'm happy to share towels with people.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:17 PM
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I have wanted to edit (not maliciously, just adding a relevant update or something) other posters' posts occasionally, and have been inhibited. (I'm not dead sure I've never done it, but if I did I'm pretty sure it was something ministerial, like on one of the server outages or something.)

Along the same lines -- bloggers who respond to comments by putting a bracketed response in the comment at some later time? No. I think Brad DeLong does this sometimes, and much as I respect him, it gives me the willies.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:19 PM
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teo's pants are also smarter than mine.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:19 PM
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I think ogged's introspection is making babies with his prissiness.

Depends on the blog, depends on the circumstances.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:21 PM
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Ari did it! Not me! It was Ari!

Maybe Kathy will show up to stone him now.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:22 PM
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teo's pants are also smarter than mine.

Not as smart as Mitt Romney's, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:23 PM
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It is at the least a 'smile when you say that, pardner,' sort of thing. If the edit is anything that the original writer of the post is not absolutely happy with, it'd be a huge piss-off.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:23 PM
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My intuition agress with ogged's intuition while simultaneously being a million times smarter.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:23 PM
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14

This actual case is pretty minor- the inserted links were to the Powell's page for two books mentioned. Is it bad because if they author had done it, they would have used Amazon?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:24 PM
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Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:24 PM
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Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?

No, comments are works-for-hire, so they're fair game.

What, you're not getting paid?


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:25 PM
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Shit, never mind, I thought it said links above, not links below- the inserted links were relevant.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:25 PM
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Brock, for real?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:26 PM
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(And for the record the "someone" was LB, I later learned. If I recall correctly.)


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:26 PM
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20

You these historians; always altering original documents to better fit their thesis. Well-known fact.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:27 PM
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21

I can see doing that if you've revealed something about someone that you ought not to have; can't think of another obvious exception...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:27 PM
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Perhaps someone could edit my mistake in 14.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:28 PM
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Yeah ogged she invented that whole "soul-freezing stare" thing. Brock actually found her bubbly and whimsical.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:28 PM
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I altered 20 to make Gonerill look like an idiot.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:28 PM
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9 is right. Jesus

I will say that the ability to retroactively edit out typos in your own comments on your blog always struck me as a bit asymmetrical, but for someone who is prone to homophone and more egregious typos it was irresistible. However, it is but a short slippery slope from there to modifying your own content in comments. (Ha ! Caught the 'their' in that sentence.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:28 PM
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Some historian should edit 20 to insert "know" between "You and "these".


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:28 PM
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I keep asking people to edit my comments, but no.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:29 PM
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Ari did it! Not me! It was Ari!

At least he didn't fuck with the Alan Taylor post. Or did he?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:29 PM
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Some historian should edit this thread so I appear more witty and less pwned.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:29 PM
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21: I believe it was fixing broken coding in an html link. But for all she knew I wanted it that way.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:30 PM
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26: or just a comma.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:30 PM
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Seriously? I have a strong suspicion that at least under these circumstances it's a non-issue. You have to remember that in this case, we all work together here, and are off-blog colleagues and friends.

And Kathy, in giving us the post, noted with what I interpret as apology that she didn't have time to put in links. (Oh, wait, now I've compromised the integrity of off-blog communication!)

Besides, Kathy outranks Ari, so she can avenge herself as she pleases.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:30 PM
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I believe it was fixing broken coding in an html link

Thanks for out-prissying me, Brock.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:31 PM
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Now I feel bad that I'm blaming this on LB, when I'm not 100% sure I'm even rcalling correctly that it was her.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:31 PM
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I now believe that all those comments by "Borck Landers" and "Btock Lamerf" were originally spelled perfectly, and altered later to falsely imply that our worm-riddled friend is some kind of simpleton or alcoholic.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:32 PM
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My introspection tells me that it hates those mouseover thingies that make a little preview of the page it's linking to pop up. So annoying.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:32 PM
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Now I feel bad that I'm blaming this on LB, when I'm not 100% sure I'm even rcalling correctly that it was her.

It probably was; I seem to recall her doing similar things from time to time, though not without permission.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:33 PM
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At least he didn't fuck with the Alan Taylor post. Or did he?

Alan's post originally said that Andy Jackson rules and Tom Brady drools.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:34 PM
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SOMEONE ONCE EDITED A COMMENT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I WAS ME AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:34 PM
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40

Also, I'm happy to share towels with people.

Eew.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:34 PM
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it hates those mouseover thingies that make a little preview of the page it's linking to pop up

If I make them go away, will you keep reading our blog, stras?


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:34 PM
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PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH FASCISM SHOULD GO TO THE XANGAS. HERE IN BLOGLAND THERE IS A HIERARCHY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:35 PM
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I'll cop to it. I used to ask permission, but for something that I'm dead sure is an HTML-screwup, I have been fixing them offhandedly for awhile. It makes the page look nicer.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:35 PM
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I don't screwup, LB.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:36 PM
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45

It makes the page look nicer.

Aesthetics > ethics.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:36 PM
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46

Fixing the html of our incompetent commenters is a public service, and not editing in any meaningful sense.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:37 PM
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47

Slippery slope, ogged.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:38 PM
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48

Eew.

Preach it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:38 PM
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49

I'll share a towel with you, Megan.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:40 PM
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46: first you correct the html, then the typos, then the sloppy thinking, then you start shipping people off to re-education camps.

Or, what 47 said.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:40 PM
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46 gets it right. It's similar to sportswriters altering quotes so they sound boring rather than subliterate. The trouble is when you start replacing every word with one you wish the player had said and you end up with those old stories in which Ty Cobb sounded like Vittorio Orlando's translator.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:41 PM
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for something that I'm dead sure is an HTML-screwup

There you go again with your HTMLonormativity.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:42 PM
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53

Thanks, hon.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:44 PM
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Any time.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:45 PM
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He didn't say who got to use the towel first.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:46 PM
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I assumed 'sharing' meant simultaneity.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:48 PM
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Because it isn't a big huge deal. Once you're dry, you move on with your day.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:50 PM
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58

I asked her first. Does that matter?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:51 PM
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You sound like you're talking about Megan's towel.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:54 PM
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He's not?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:55 PM
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61

I asked her first. Does that matter?

Oh. Well, yeah.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:55 PM
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I'm not?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:55 PM
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You sound like he's not, Eric.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:55 PM
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64

Is this bickering how academic historians interact? you're worse than my dad and the other biblical historians.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:56 PM
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65

You know I feel like I could've been pwned a couple more times there if I'd really worked at it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:56 PM
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66

Ned, you must be much older than I thought.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:56 PM
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But you're right to be concerned (troll). Because I often change Eric's posts while he sleeps.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:57 PM
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Is this bickering how academics historians interact?

why yes, yes it is.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:57 PM
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Is this bickering how academic historians interact?

Online, you can't see the slap-fighting.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:58 PM
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58: No. There is nothing beyond the text ... err and hypertext. Your authorial intent is irrelevant.

[on preview]
61: Way to cave, Ogged. Furrfu!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:58 PM
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67: That's ok, so do I.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:58 PM
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66: His father's Key to All Mythologies killed in Germany.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 4:59 PM
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69: And the noogies.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:00 PM
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Because I often change Eric's posts while he sleeps.

Rauchway doesn't sleep; the world simply ceases for eight hours.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:00 PM
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Now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible that I didn't exactly ask Kathy so much as imply that I might lightly edit her post.

Dammit, Ogged, I was feeling okay about myself today. I had done twenty one-armed pull-ups, a bunch (I lose count after twelve) of no-armed rope climbs, and an hour of self-abnegating soul-searching. And then you have to screw up my perfectly good afternoon. Thanks a bunch. Now I have to call Kathy and aplogize.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:04 PM
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If I make them go away, will you keep reading our blog, stras?

Yes!


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:05 PM
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Report back on whether Kathy thought adding links was a breach, would you please?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:06 PM
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But I won't. It's me or stras; choose now Sophie.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:06 PM
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Yes!

Done.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:06 PM
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80

Crap, 78 to 76.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:07 PM
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That looks like I was dumping Megan for stras, but it was pure cross-postage.

It would have been funnier if I hadn't said that, wouldn't it?


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:07 PM
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Oh, I can't even read; it was Kelman. I take stras over Kelman.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:08 PM
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Yes, it would have been funnier. But now it's not.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:09 PM
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Oh my god! It's a miracle! They're gone!


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:09 PM
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Wise choice. Anti-semite.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:10 PM
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Do you think I can get this thread up to 1,000 comments all by myself? Or, a better question: can I get this thread up to 1,000 comments before Ogged finds me and cuts off my hands?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:12 PM
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It's a miracle! They're gone!

Never let it be said we are not a full-service blog.


Posted by: Eric Rauchway | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:13 PM
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This topic isn't controversial enough to cause a 1000-comment thread.

Completely unrelated: We haven't really heard much from Ogged lately, dating-wise. What gives?


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:17 PM
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Presumably the BPL has not yet recognized that her destiny lies in Sweden.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:18 PM
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90

We could talk about my dating life.

Oh -- wait, no....


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:21 PM
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91

I've never seen sour cream added to guac, in fact sour cream at all seems to be a more northern thing. I always assumed the (canned) salsa plus sour cream thing you often get in northern states and canada was due to lack of avocados

I have known some mexicans who'll add table cream (kind of like whipped cream, but not whipped) to all sorts of things. And lots of sauces have quesa fresca in it, sometimes pretty soft. Not guac, as far as I can see. I could be off though.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:23 PM
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Presumably the BPL has not yet recognized that her destiny lies in Sweden.

Or she has, and ogged's too broken up about it to tell us.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:24 PM
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bah, 91 on the wrong thread, obviously


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:25 PM
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Dammit, Ogged, I was feeling okay about myself today.

That's what you get for reading Unfogged.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:25 PM
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We could talk about my dating life. That's always good for a laugh.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:27 PM
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88: Two possibilities: (1) It's going swimmingly (tee hee, I amuse me... ) and he's showing his respect for her by not treating her like mere blog fodder; or (2) he crashed and burned and doesn't want to talk about it, okay?

(On a separate not, I am ashamed to admit I got sucked into this thread by the promise that it would "be of interest to controlling neurotics everywhere." Turns out, I wasn't totally interested after all.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:27 PM
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96: Given the past history of ogged's dating and blogging life, neither of those possibilities sounds very likely.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:29 PM
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Damn. I have a school function to attend, just as everyone is poised to start discussing their dating lives...

(As for my dating life? I changed the locks on my doors tonight. The Ugly Naked Guy finally moved...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:32 PM
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The Ugly Naked Guy finally moved...

Woo! Congrats, Di.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:33 PM
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Okay teo, have at it. Getting those crabs help you any with the ladies?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:34 PM
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Getting those crabs help you any with the ladies?

Shockingly, no. But I appreciate your efforts.

The situation in a nutshell is that leaving for a week right when things were starting to look pretty good may have been a tactical error.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:38 PM
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102

controlling neurotics everywhere
chewing citrus flavoured gum helps your mental concentration more than chewing mint or other flavoured gums


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:39 PM
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103

102: What, like Juicy Fruit?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:41 PM
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But on the plus side, another girl messaged me out of the blue the other day. Bonus: she's my age.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:44 PM
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104: When one door closes...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:45 PM
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Maybe I'll get another pack of that weird citrus-flavored Orbit gum after all!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:45 PM
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When one door vagina closes...


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 5:52 PM
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108

90: Actually, today my dating life got a boost. I thought that my New Year's date had decided never to talk to me again because I was so moody that night, but as it turns out, she wasn't e-mailing because she was moody about something unrelated! I feel like this is a net gain.

Not as big a gain as DK has experienced, though. Congratulations.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:03 PM
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Yes, congratulations, Di.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:05 PM
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Di, that's awesome!


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:08 PM
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woohoo, Di. Congrats.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:22 PM
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108: A lifetime of reciprocal moodiness awaits you, a braided stream of failures to communicate, each of which is completely unique and original.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:31 PM
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An eternal molded braid!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:36 PM
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"A lifetime of unique and original communication failures awaits you, a braided stream of reciprocal moodiness."

We regret the error.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:37 PM
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115

"moodinesses".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:39 PM
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116

so the thread seems dedicated to correcting comments, i'd like to use your people corrections
and i would like to dedicate this to Di Kotimy

***
In my great city there is - a night.
I am going out of the sleepy - house,
And people think: a wife, a daughter
But I've remembered only - the night.
The wind of July sweeps for me - the road,
There is some music in the windows - just slight,
Tonight the wind will blow - until the down,
Through thin walls of my chest - to the chest.
There is black poplar and in the window - light,
And tolling over the tower and in my hand -
a flower,
And step this one - following - nobody,
And this shadow and me - but I'm gone.
The lights are threads of golden - beads,
And in my mouth there is a taste of night - leaf,
Let me be free from all bonds - of the day.
You see me only in your dreams, my friends.

the original is here
http://www.tsvetayeva.com/poems/wogromnomgorode.php
Di Kotimy, you can change the word wife to any other word :)


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:50 PM
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You know, Ogged, a charitable reader might have assumed Ari had asked, or Kathy had said "I didn't put in links," which any reasonable person would interpret as "so add them if you think they're needed."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 6:52 PM
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Lovely, read. Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:01 PM
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I think the host should only add links in clearly attributed brackets, e.g.:


Guest Post By Hamilton Lovecraft: blah blah Unfogged The Novel Of The Motion Picture Of The Blog [Amazon Link -- ogged] blah blah cock jokes blah blah unelectable blah


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:07 PM
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You can consider that my audition for the guest-blogging position that Fox News reported was opening up, by the way.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:15 PM
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116: Thanks read, that's very touching.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:17 PM
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B, he says the links are "not...author-approved;" only a big dummy, or an English major, would read that to mean that he'd asked.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:21 PM
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Maybe he's being, y'know, modest. Or maybe he said, "hey, mind if I add some links?" but didn't specify which ones. In any case, by letting you know who added them, he is, in fact, being scrupulously honest. So nyah.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:24 PM
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He's being honest with us, but nothing he wrote indicated that he'd been honest with the guest poster, which is what this post is about. You comment based on PK's summaries of things, don't you?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:26 PM
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No, but I like Ari, and as it turns out you were wrong.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:39 PM
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You people CANNOT BE SERIOUS.

Also, by the way, an NPR commentator this evening noted that there's a difference between likeability and being liked. I thought this was so clever I actually turned and stared at the radio, and laughed.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:49 PM
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I am, as anyone who knows me will tell you, a serial prevaricator* (indeed, I'm lying right now). But in this instance, as it happens, Kathy noted in her e-mail to me that she had not included links. I took that -- perhaps a bit far -- to mean: add links if you wish. So I did.

I included the note about having added the links so that readers wouldn't blame Kathy for my choices.

Meanwhile, I've since talked to Kathy, who said to say that she thinks Ogged is a pearl-clutching racist. Actually, she didn't understand the fuss. But I take Ogged's point. In fact, it was on my mind when I posted. Which is why I've been near tears all afternoon.

* Why does "serial prevaricator" sound so much better than "serial liar"? Or is it just me?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:53 PM
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16: "Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?

No, comments are works-for-hire, so they're fair game.

What, you're not getting paid?"

18: "Brock, for real?"

There's no "work-for-hire" without a signed contract granting rights, and without, as noted, being paid.

So, no, that's bullshit.

And editing the words of anyone who has not granted you permission to edit the writer's words, after publication was solicited, is completely unprofessional, whatever the content.

I'd never write for anyone with such a lack of understanding of how to deal with anything even vaguely resembling professional publishing and writing, until they made clear they understood what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

Naturally, relatively few people are familiar with the practices in professional publishing and writing, and thus won't care.

Note that I know squat about the people involved here, or what actually happened, so my abstract statement may have nothing to do with the actual events, in which case, great.

But as an abstract question, I see no reason to treat links as different from any other kind of insertion of something the writer did not in fact write.

And before anyone misses the point, simple copyediting when the writer understands that they will be copyedited is a different situation, regardless even of whether the writer gets to see proofs before publication or posting, or not, as there's a specific grant of permission for that, when it's known to be part of the process, as well. If a writer is fine with links being inserted, fine, but it's not an assumption that should be made without a query.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:53 PM
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112: A lifetime of reciprocal moodiness awaits you, a braided stream of failures to communicate, each of which is completely unique and original.

Or they could just spend some romantic time in front of a light box, curing the mutual moodiness and imparting a romantic glow.

108: It may not be as big of a gain now, Adam, but give it time. If you play your cards right, in a few years you, too, can be changing locks and hauling garbage bags full of crap to the curb. You can't rush these things.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:56 PM
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This is getting really interesting. But I have to put my son to bed. I'll check back later. Also, on the subject of editing, did anyone read the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish? Fascinating.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 7:59 PM
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Not to distract attention away from my crimes against the pixilated word.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:00 PM
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So this is dating thread now?

I have dating questions:

What happened to Ogged's bass player?
Why would someone like eekbeat date Stanley?
Will redtailfoaxshrub leave snark and come live with us and cook?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:04 PM
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I suppose it's "pixelated," isn't it? More crimes.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:06 PM
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And also, where is Will's lovely and mysterious gf?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:07 PM
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She has been lurkering but not commenting.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:09 PM
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130: aye. It was that.

133: interestingly, TV studios for a long time clung stubbornly to the tradition of calling a "picture element" a "pel", rather than a "pixel". Dinosaurs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:11 PM
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Well damn her.

In the old great days of literature editing was pretty aggressive, I think. But I may be wrong. Even now, most newspapers and a lot of magazines edit the hell out of everything.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:12 PM
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Aesthetics > ethics.

My profession, writ short.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:15 PM
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The main reason I would be outraged about someone adding links to something I'd written is if I thought they constituted an endorsement and/or drove traffic to something I did not want to support. This is a harder call than it might sound; some people would be upset over an Amazon link inserted rather than Powells.

I was very mildly shocked when an article linked here the other day linked to Wikipedia for a definition. I like Wikipedia just fine for a number of purposes, but I would be unlikely to use it to explain a political phenomenon.

the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish

Is this from several years back? I was forced to read it. A bit interesting from a how-sausage-is-made POV, a bit annoying from the faux horror (OMG! the master writer was heavily edited!) POV. And I'm not a fan of the end product, particularly.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:16 PM
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She is nervous, Emerson. Give her time. Sooner or later, she will want to start bitching about me and how messy the kids and I am.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:16 PM
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Also, on the subject of editing, did anyone read the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish?

Ari, you are no Raymond Carver ... er, I mean, you're not the Carver I knew, via Lish ... who wasn't the taciturn Carver I thought I knew ... fuck it, you may well be Raymond Carver.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:17 PM
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Sooner or later, she will want to start bitching about me and how messy the kids and I am.

And about how bad your grammar are, too.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:19 PM
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Di:

That was supposed to be for w-lfs-n.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:21 PM
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143: Don't worry -- Ben's got the power to go back and edit out my comment to make it his own.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:33 PM
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Have we toasted our newest single Unfoggeder?

Party at Di's house!!!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:40 PM
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i'm glad Parsimon and Di Kotimy liked the translation
and there is no any corrections?
i can't believe it, there should be something awkward sounding or some other mistake hiding
i tend for example to omit where it is needed or write unnecessary articles a, the before nouns
either my english is improving :)
or people aren't interested :(
and my translations are not for publishing
just for learning the language


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:40 PM
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OT: A professor watches The Wire with "real thugs" and gets their opinions on it.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:42 PM
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The Wire, it should be pointed out, has not a few "real thugs" in it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:45 PM
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I delicately replied that my piggy bank was filled up already.

Delicately indeed. This is really embarrassing.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:45 PM
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146: read, I'm wondering whether "until the down" is meant to be "until the dawn".

Otherwise, I'm wildly unqualified to comment on poetry. I would flag "sleepy-house" and "night leaf" to be most likely to be imprecise translations, but since I have no idea of the tone of the poem in the original language, I could be totally wrong.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:50 PM
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There aren't any clear errors in your translation that I can see, read. The only parts that sound a little unnatural are "I've remembered" ("I remembered" would be more usual unless it's important to emphasize that the remembering began in the past and continues in the present) and "through thin walls of my chest" where "the thin walls" would be more natural.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 8:55 PM
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I can't believe ogged managed to trick me into endorsing his prissiness.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:02 PM
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Thank you, Witt
yes, dawn
sleepy -house is iz doma sonnogo and hight-leaf was nochnogo listika in the original
like word for word
i put the translations online where my page not many people visits, but if one will read it and there are such mistakes, not up to the originals
i try to edit it like by all means :)
i would prefer to correspond to someone interested instead to do it this public
do you mind if i'll contact you by e-mail?
good night



Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:04 PM
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148: "The Wire, it should be pointed out, has not a few 'real thugs' in it."

All sorts of folks.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:06 PM
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i would prefer to correspond to someone interested instead to do it this public

I'd be happy to help you, if you'd like. My e-mail address is in the sidebar of my blog.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:08 PM
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do you mind if i'll contact you by e-mail?

Not at all. Macdance at gmail dot com.

(I do want to repeat that there are many, many people on this blog with a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of English, and poetry. All of them could probably offer you suggestions better or at least as good as mine.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:09 PM
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Like Teo!


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:10 PM
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Why would someone like eekbeat date Stanley?

I'm exceedingly likable and articulate. Duh, Will.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:12 PM
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Me too. emersonj at gmail dot com

I also recommend visiting languagehat.com. Steve there loves Russian literature and is interested in language study, including rare languages like Mongol.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:18 PM
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You know who we need to participate in the Russian poetry translation threads? Fuckin' languagehat.

Emerson, you're in with him. Make it happen.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:25 PM
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Shows me for taking the time to read the thread, I guess.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:26 PM
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Read, it appears that your 'sleepy-house' is meant to duplicate the punctuation scheme of the original, and also that you skipped 'прочь,' so you could change the second line to read 'I go out of the sleepy house—away.'

'I go out of' is infelicitous, but I can't at the moment think of another English verb that conveys the same sense of motion; 'leave,' for example, doesn't work. (For those who haven't studied the language: Russian verbs of motion are headache-inducing.)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:30 PM
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Ben, if I'm notified of a Russian language translation thread I'll email him at once.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:32 PM
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Jesus might be your best bet, read, since he also knows Russian and can compare the translations to the original in a way that most of us can't.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:36 PM
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I have long maintained that languagehat is the best blog.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:38 PM
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Languagehat is indeed great. I should start reading it again.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:39 PM
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including rare languages like Mongol.

Well that's just ridiculous. Practically every Mongol I know speaks it.

A rare language is one of those that just one grandma in the Amazon still knows. And she might be making it up.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:42 PM
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Jesus is everyone's best bet.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:43 PM
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'I go out of' is infelicitous, but I can't at the moment think of another English verb that conveys the same sense of motion; 'leave,' for example, doesn't work. (For those who haven't studied the language: Russian verbs of motion are headache-inducing.)

Exit? Depart?

Not denying that Russian verbs of motion are tricky, but it just seems to me that there's got to be a decently evocative English word.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:44 PM
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Fafblog is the best blog. It says so right there on the site.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:46 PM
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I hasten to caution that my Russian is extremely rusty, read, but I like Tsvetaeva quite a little bit. Feel free to contact me at the linked email address.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:47 PM
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Read is NSA, you suckers.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:50 PM
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it just seems to me that there's got to be a decently evocative English word.

Me too, but it's got to go with 'away' at the end of the line, and be simple like 'go.' 'I go from' works a little better.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:52 PM
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Read is NSA, you suckers.

Only someone deep in the intelligence community would know that one says "X is NSA" and not "X is in the NSA". Ogged is clearly working something complicated here.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:55 PM
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136: I believe that was IBM's terminology, no?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 9:58 PM
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174: Retroactively EDiting comments to tRansmit sUbversive coded Messages?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01- 9-08 10:03 PM
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139 I like Wikipedia just fine for a number of purposes, but I would be unlikely to use it to explain a political phenomenon.

I would, because the Wikipedia explenation will usually be the least biased version you could find on the web, even if it's often itself biased towards consentus rather than correctness.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 12:53 AM
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thank you all
so next time i'll write you all an e-mail
i'll change to 'remembered' and to 'I go out of the sleepy house--away.'
she says simply 'idu - proch' so may be it's the closest
and i'll start to read the languagehat blog, great


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 7:38 AM
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Although posting translations here is still welcome -- with more people reading, you're likelier to get faster responses, and it is kind of fun.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 7:44 AM
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really? i do so simple mistakes it's shameful
for example always do errors with the verb forms is, are
coz in mongolian we do not change verbs whether it's singular or plural nouns, in japanese also
in russian it changes but i learned russian when i was child, so it just comes naturally the grammar and we do not have articles, so articles are kinda tricky for me
i remember a chinese friend said that he always mixes she/he, coz they do not use she/he, it's the same pronoun
and i know nothing about english poetical canons
just try to keep it as close to the original as possible, in my opinion


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 8:16 AM
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Maybe we should have an interminible wiki thread. On Crooked Timber there were 2 or 3 wiki-haters.

There's a special way to read wiki -- realizing that it's often composite, and that some articles are much worse than others. It's still my first stop for something I'm uncertain about, and it's very useful about 80% of the time.

National and religious obsessions make some topics unmanageable.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 10:01 AM
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Read, Ogged, and the Unfogged Central committee:

I have invited Steve of Language Hat over. However, it might be better to start over again with a new thread. Or Read, you could post it on your own blog, if you have one, and people could go there. Feel feel to email me at emersonj at gmail dot com.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 10:36 AM
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51, see 38 in the previous thread.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 01-10-08 2:24 PM
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