I'm waiting to see what one of your cobloggers will link the words "I" and "my" to in this post.
Not to mention "controlling neurotics."
Definitely a violation of etiquette. A housemate and I used to share a blog and we would never have considered altering one another's posts. Doing it to a guest poster is somehow even worse.
Also, my introspection, which is much smarter than ogged's, tells me that this isn't that big a deal.
My introspection is also smarter than Pants's.
My introspection is the same smart as Teo's. Also, I'm happy to share towels with people.
I have wanted to edit (not maliciously, just adding a relevant update or something) other posters' posts occasionally, and have been inhibited. (I'm not dead sure I've never done it, but if I did I'm pretty sure it was something ministerial, like on one of the server outages or something.)
Along the same lines -- bloggers who respond to comments by putting a bracketed response in the comment at some later time? No. I think Brad DeLong does this sometimes, and much as I respect him, it gives me the willies.
teo's pants are also smarter than mine.
I think ogged's introspection is making babies with his prissiness.
Depends on the blog, depends on the circumstances.
Ari did it! Not me! It was Ari!
Maybe Kathy will show up to stone him now.
teo's pants are also smarter than mine.
Not as smart as Mitt Romney's, though.
It is at the least a 'smile when you say that, pardner,' sort of thing. If the edit is anything that the original writer of the post is not absolutely happy with, it'd be a huge piss-off.
My intuition agress with ogged's intuition while simultaneously being a million times smarter.
This actual case is pretty minor- the inserted links were to the Powell's page for two books mentioned. Is it bad because if they author had done it, they would have used Amazon?
Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?
Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?
No, comments are works-for-hire, so they're fair game.
What, you're not getting paid?
Shit, never mind, I thought it said links above, not links below- the inserted links were relevant.
(And for the record the "someone" was LB, I later learned. If I recall correctly.)
You these historians; always altering original documents to better fit their thesis. Well-known fact.
I can see doing that if you've revealed something about someone that you ought not to have; can't think of another obvious exception...
Perhaps someone could edit my mistake in 14.
Yeah ogged she invented that whole "soul-freezing stare" thing. Brock actually found her bubbly and whimsical.
I altered 20 to make Gonerill look like an idiot.
9 is right. Jesus
I will say that the ability to retroactively edit out typos in your own comments on your blog always struck me as a bit asymmetrical, but for someone who is prone to homophone and more egregious typos it was irresistible. However, it is but a short slippery slope from there to modifying your own content in comments. (Ha ! Caught the 'their' in that sentence.)
Some historian should edit 20 to insert "know" between "You and "these".
I keep asking people to edit my comments, but no.
Ari did it! Not me! It was Ari!
At least he didn't fuck with the Alan Taylor post. Or did he?
Some historian should edit this thread so I appear more witty and less pwned.
21: I believe it was fixing broken coding in an html link. But for all she knew I wanted it that way.
Seriously? I have a strong suspicion that at least under these circumstances it's a non-issue. You have to remember that in this case, we all work together here, and are off-blog colleagues and friends.
And Kathy, in giving us the post, noted with what I interpret as apology that she didn't have time to put in links. (Oh, wait, now I've compromised the integrity of off-blog communication!)
Besides, Kathy outranks Ari, so she can avenge herself as she pleases.
I believe it was fixing broken coding in an html link
Thanks for out-prissying me, Brock.
Now I feel bad that I'm blaming this on LB, when I'm not 100% sure I'm even rcalling correctly that it was her.
I now believe that all those comments by "Borck Landers" and "Btock Lamerf" were originally spelled perfectly, and altered later to falsely imply that our worm-riddled friend is some kind of simpleton or alcoholic.
My introspection tells me that it hates those mouseover thingies that make a little preview of the page it's linking to pop up. So annoying.
Now I feel bad that I'm blaming this on LB, when I'm not 100% sure I'm even rcalling correctly that it was her.
It probably was; I seem to recall her doing similar things from time to time, though not without permission.
At least he didn't fuck with the Alan Taylor post. Or did he?
Alan's post originally said that Andy Jackson rules and Tom Brady drools.
SOMEONE ONCE EDITED A COMMENT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I WAS ME AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE
Also, I'm happy to share towels with people.
Eew.
it hates those mouseover thingies that make a little preview of the page it's linking to pop up
If I make them go away, will you keep reading our blog, stras?
PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH FASCISM SHOULD GO TO THE XANGAS. HERE IN BLOGLAND THERE IS A HIERARCHY.
I'll cop to it. I used to ask permission, but for something that I'm dead sure is an HTML-screwup, I have been fixing them offhandedly for awhile. It makes the page look nicer.
It makes the page look nicer.
Aesthetics > ethics.
Fixing the html of our incompetent commenters is a public service, and not editing in any meaningful sense.
46: first you correct the html, then the typos, then the sloppy thinking, then you start shipping people off to re-education camps.
Or, what 47 said.
46 gets it right. It's similar to sportswriters altering quotes so they sound boring rather than subliterate. The trouble is when you start replacing every word with one you wish the player had said and you end up with those old stories in which Ty Cobb sounded like Vittorio Orlando's translator.
for something that I'm dead sure is an HTML-screwup
There you go again with your HTMLonormativity.
He didn't say who got to use the towel first.
I assumed 'sharing' meant simultaneity.
Because it isn't a big huge deal. Once you're dry, you move on with your day.
You sound like you're talking about Megan's towel.
I asked her first. Does that matter?
Oh. Well, yeah.
Is this bickering how academic historians interact? you're worse than my dad and the other biblical historians.
You know I feel like I could've been pwned a couple more times there if I'd really worked at it.
Ned, you must be much older than I thought.
But you're right to be concerned (troll). Because I often change Eric's posts while he sleeps.
Is this bickering how academics historians interact?
why yes, yes it is.
Is this bickering how academic historians interact?
Online, you can't see the slap-fighting.
58: No. There is nothing beyond the text ... err and hypertext. Your authorial intent is irrelevant.
[on preview]
61: Way to cave, Ogged. Furrfu!
66: His father's Key to All Mythologies killed in Germany.
Because I often change Eric's posts while he sleeps.
Rauchway doesn't sleep; the world simply ceases for eight hours.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible that I didn't exactly ask Kathy so much as imply that I might lightly edit her post.
Dammit, Ogged, I was feeling okay about myself today. I had done twenty one-armed pull-ups, a bunch (I lose count after twelve) of no-armed rope climbs, and an hour of self-abnegating soul-searching. And then you have to screw up my perfectly good afternoon. Thanks a bunch. Now I have to call Kathy and aplogize.
If I make them go away, will you keep reading our blog, stras?
Yes!
Report back on whether Kathy thought adding links was a breach, would you please?
But I won't. It's me or stras; choose now Sophie.
That looks like I was dumping Megan for stras, but it was pure cross-postage.
It would have been funnier if I hadn't said that, wouldn't it?
Oh, I can't even read; it was Kelman. I take stras over Kelman.
Yes, it would have been funnier. But now it's not.
Oh my god! It's a miracle! They're gone!
Do you think I can get this thread up to 1,000 comments all by myself? Or, a better question: can I get this thread up to 1,000 comments before Ogged finds me and cuts off my hands?
It's a miracle! They're gone!
Never let it be said we are not a full-service blog.
This topic isn't controversial enough to cause a 1000-comment thread.
Completely unrelated: We haven't really heard much from Ogged lately, dating-wise. What gives?
Presumably the BPL has not yet recognized that her destiny lies in Sweden.
We could talk about my dating life.
Oh -- wait, no....
I've never seen sour cream added to guac, in fact sour cream at all seems to be a more northern thing. I always assumed the (canned) salsa plus sour cream thing you often get in northern states and canada was due to lack of avocados
I have known some mexicans who'll add table cream (kind of like whipped cream, but not whipped) to all sorts of things. And lots of sauces have quesa fresca in it, sometimes pretty soft. Not guac, as far as I can see. I could be off though.
Presumably the BPL has not yet recognized that her destiny lies in Sweden.
Or she has, and ogged's too broken up about it to tell us.
bah, 91 on the wrong thread, obviously
Dammit, Ogged, I was feeling okay about myself today.
That's what you get for reading Unfogged.
We could talk about my dating life. That's always good for a laugh.
88: Two possibilities: (1) It's going swimmingly (tee hee, I amuse me... ) and he's showing his respect for her by not treating her like mere blog fodder; or (2) he crashed and burned and doesn't want to talk about it, okay?
(On a separate not, I am ashamed to admit I got sucked into this thread by the promise that it would "be of interest to controlling neurotics everywhere." Turns out, I wasn't totally interested after all.)
96: Given the past history of ogged's dating and blogging life, neither of those possibilities sounds very likely.
Damn. I have a school function to attend, just as everyone is poised to start discussing their dating lives...
(As for my dating life? I changed the locks on my doors tonight. The Ugly Naked Guy finally moved...
The Ugly Naked Guy finally moved...
Woo! Congrats, Di.
Okay teo, have at it. Getting those crabs help you any with the ladies?
Getting those crabs help you any with the ladies?
Shockingly, no. But I appreciate your efforts.
The situation in a nutshell is that leaving for a week right when things were starting to look pretty good may have been a tactical error.
controlling neurotics everywhere
chewing citrus flavoured gum helps your mental concentration more than chewing mint or other flavoured gums
But on the plus side, another girl messaged me out of the blue the other day. Bonus: she's my age.
Maybe I'll get another pack of that weird citrus-flavored Orbit gum after all!
90: Actually, today my dating life got a boost. I thought that my New Year's date had decided never to talk to me again because I was so moody that night, but as it turns out, she wasn't e-mailing because she was moody about something unrelated! I feel like this is a net gain.
Not as big a gain as DK has experienced, though. Congratulations.
108: A lifetime of reciprocal moodiness awaits you, a braided stream of failures to communicate, each of which is completely unique and original.
"A lifetime of unique and original communication failures awaits you, a braided stream of reciprocal moodiness."
We regret the error.
so the thread seems dedicated to correcting comments, i'd like to use your people corrections
and i would like to dedicate this to Di Kotimy
***
In my great city there is - a night.
I am going out of the sleepy - house,
And people think: a wife, a daughter
But I've remembered only - the night.
The wind of July sweeps for me - the road,
There is some music in the windows - just slight,
Tonight the wind will blow - until the down,
Through thin walls of my chest - to the chest.
There is black poplar and in the window - light,
And tolling over the tower and in my hand -
a flower,
And step this one - following - nobody,
And this shadow and me - but I'm gone.
The lights are threads of golden - beads,
And in my mouth there is a taste of night - leaf,
Let me be free from all bonds - of the day.
You see me only in your dreams, my friends.
the original is here
http://www.tsvetayeva.com/poems/wogromnomgorode.php
Di Kotimy, you can change the word wife to any other word :)
You know, Ogged, a charitable reader might have assumed Ari had asked, or Kathy had said "I didn't put in links," which any reasonable person would interpret as "so add them if you think they're needed."
I think the host should only add links in clearly attributed brackets, e.g.:
Guest Post By Hamilton Lovecraft: blah blah Unfogged The Novel Of The Motion Picture Of The Blog [Amazon Link -- ogged] blah blah cock jokes blah blah unelectable blah
You can consider that my audition for the guest-blogging position that Fox News reported was opening up, by the way.
116: Thanks read, that's very touching.
B, he says the links are "not...author-approved;" only a big dummy, or an English major, would read that to mean that he'd asked.
Maybe he's being, y'know, modest. Or maybe he said, "hey, mind if I add some links?" but didn't specify which ones. In any case, by letting you know who added them, he is, in fact, being scrupulously honest. So nyah.
He's being honest with us, but nothing he wrote indicated that he'd been honest with the guest poster, which is what this post is about. You comment based on PK's summaries of things, don't you?
No, but I like Ari, and as it turns out you were wrong.
You people CANNOT BE SERIOUS.
Also, by the way, an NPR commentator this evening noted that there's a difference between likeability and being liked. I thought this was so clever I actually turned and stared at the radio, and laughed.
I am, as anyone who knows me will tell you, a serial prevaricator* (indeed, I'm lying right now). But in this instance, as it happens, Kathy noted in her e-mail to me that she had not included links. I took that -- perhaps a bit far -- to mean: add links if you wish. So I did.
I included the note about having added the links so that readers wouldn't blame Kathy for my choices.
Meanwhile, I've since talked to Kathy, who said to say that she thinks Ogged is a pearl-clutching racist. Actually, she didn't understand the fuss. But I take Ogged's point. In fact, it was on my mind when I posted. Which is why I've been near tears all afternoon.
* Why does "serial prevaricator" sound so much better than "serial liar"? Or is it just me?
16: "Someone once edited one of my comments here, without my permission. Offensive?
No, comments are works-for-hire, so they're fair game.
What, you're not getting paid?"
18: "Brock, for real?"
There's no "work-for-hire" without a signed contract granting rights, and without, as noted, being paid.
So, no, that's bullshit.
And editing the words of anyone who has not granted you permission to edit the writer's words, after publication was solicited, is completely unprofessional, whatever the content.
I'd never write for anyone with such a lack of understanding of how to deal with anything even vaguely resembling professional publishing and writing, until they made clear they understood what is and isn't acceptable behavior.
Naturally, relatively few people are familiar with the practices in professional publishing and writing, and thus won't care.
Note that I know squat about the people involved here, or what actually happened, so my abstract statement may have nothing to do with the actual events, in which case, great.
But as an abstract question, I see no reason to treat links as different from any other kind of insertion of something the writer did not in fact write.
And before anyone misses the point, simple copyediting when the writer understands that they will be copyedited is a different situation, regardless even of whether the writer gets to see proofs before publication or posting, or not, as there's a specific grant of permission for that, when it's known to be part of the process, as well. If a writer is fine with links being inserted, fine, but it's not an assumption that should be made without a query.
112: A lifetime of reciprocal moodiness awaits you, a braided stream of failures to communicate, each of which is completely unique and original.
Or they could just spend some romantic time in front of a light box, curing the mutual moodiness and imparting a romantic glow.
108: It may not be as big of a gain now, Adam, but give it time. If you play your cards right, in a few years you, too, can be changing locks and hauling garbage bags full of crap to the curb. You can't rush these things.
This is getting really interesting. But I have to put my son to bed. I'll check back later. Also, on the subject of editing, did anyone read the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish? Fascinating.
Not to distract attention away from my crimes against the pixilated word.
So this is dating thread now?
I have dating questions:
What happened to Ogged's bass player?
Why would someone like eekbeat date Stanley?
Will redtailfoaxshrub leave snark and come live with us and cook?
I suppose it's "pixelated," isn't it? More crimes.
And also, where is Will's lovely and mysterious gf?
She has been lurkering but not commenting.
130: aye. It was that.
133: interestingly, TV studios for a long time clung stubbornly to the tradition of calling a "picture element" a "pel", rather than a "pixel". Dinosaurs.
Well damn her.
In the old great days of literature editing was pretty aggressive, I think. But I may be wrong. Even now, most newspapers and a lot of magazines edit the hell out of everything.
Aesthetics > ethics.
My profession, writ short.
The main reason I would be outraged about someone adding links to something I'd written is if I thought they constituted an endorsement and/or drove traffic to something I did not want to support. This is a harder call than it might sound; some people would be upset over an Amazon link inserted rather than Powells.
I was very mildly shocked when an article linked here the other day linked to Wikipedia for a definition. I like Wikipedia just fine for a number of purposes, but I would be unlikely to use it to explain a political phenomenon.
the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish
Is this from several years back? I was forced to read it. A bit interesting from a how-sausage-is-made POV, a bit annoying from the faux horror (OMG! the master writer was heavily edited!) POV. And I'm not a fan of the end product, particularly.
She is nervous, Emerson. Give her time. Sooner or later, she will want to start bitching about me and how messy the kids and I am.
Also, on the subject of editing, did anyone read the New Yorker piece about Carver and Lish?
Ari, you are no Raymond Carver ... er, I mean, you're not the Carver I knew, via Lish ... who wasn't the taciturn Carver I thought I knew ... fuck it, you may well be Raymond Carver.
Sooner or later, she will want to start bitching about me and how messy the kids and I am.
And about how bad your grammar are, too.
Di:
That was supposed to be for w-lfs-n.
143: Don't worry -- Ben's got the power to go back and edit out my comment to make it his own.
Have we toasted our newest single Unfoggeder?
Party at Di's house!!!
i'm glad Parsimon and Di Kotimy liked the translation
and there is no any corrections?
i can't believe it, there should be something awkward sounding or some other mistake hiding
i tend for example to omit where it is needed or write unnecessary articles a, the before nouns
either my english is improving :)
or people aren't interested :(
and my translations are not for publishing
just for learning the language
OT: A professor watches The Wire with "real thugs" and gets their opinions on it.
The Wire, it should be pointed out, has not a few "real thugs" in it.
I delicately replied that my piggy bank was filled up already.
Delicately indeed. This is really embarrassing.
146: read, I'm wondering whether "until the down" is meant to be "until the dawn".
Otherwise, I'm wildly unqualified to comment on poetry. I would flag "sleepy-house" and "night leaf" to be most likely to be imprecise translations, but since I have no idea of the tone of the poem in the original language, I could be totally wrong.
There aren't any clear errors in your translation that I can see, read. The only parts that sound a little unnatural are "I've remembered" ("I remembered" would be more usual unless it's important to emphasize that the remembering began in the past and continues in the present) and "through thin walls of my chest" where "the thin walls" would be more natural.
I can't believe ogged managed to trick me into endorsing his prissiness.
Thank you, Witt
yes, dawn
sleepy -house is iz doma sonnogo and hight-leaf was nochnogo listika in the original
like word for word
i put the translations online where my page not many people visits, but if one will read it and there are such mistakes, not up to the originals
i try to edit it like by all means :)
i would prefer to correspond to someone interested instead to do it this public
do you mind if i'll contact you by e-mail?
good night
148: "The Wire, it should be pointed out, has not a few 'real thugs' in it."
All sorts of folks.
i would prefer to correspond to someone interested instead to do it this public
I'd be happy to help you, if you'd like. My e-mail address is in the sidebar of my blog.
do you mind if i'll contact you by e-mail?
Not at all. Macdance at gmail dot com.
(I do want to repeat that there are many, many people on this blog with a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of English, and poetry. All of them could probably offer you suggestions better or at least as good as mine.)
Why would someone like eekbeat date Stanley?
I'm exceedingly likable and articulate. Duh, Will.
Me too. emersonj at gmail dot com
I also recommend visiting languagehat.com. Steve there loves Russian literature and is interested in language study, including rare languages like Mongol.
You know who we need to participate in the Russian poetry translation threads? Fuckin' languagehat.
Emerson, you're in with him. Make it happen.
Shows me for taking the time to read the thread, I guess.
Read, it appears that your 'sleepy-house' is meant to duplicate the punctuation scheme of the original, and also that you skipped 'прочь,' so you could change the second line to read 'I go out of the sleepy house—away.'
'I go out of' is infelicitous, but I can't at the moment think of another English verb that conveys the same sense of motion; 'leave,' for example, doesn't work. (For those who haven't studied the language: Russian verbs of motion are headache-inducing.)
Ben, if I'm notified of a Russian language translation thread I'll email him at once.
Jesus might be your best bet, read, since he also knows Russian and can compare the translations to the original in a way that most of us can't.
I have long maintained that languagehat is the best blog.
Languagehat is indeed great. I should start reading it again.
including rare languages like Mongol.
Well that's just ridiculous. Practically every Mongol I know speaks it.
A rare language is one of those that just one grandma in the Amazon still knows. And she might be making it up.
'I go out of' is infelicitous, but I can't at the moment think of another English verb that conveys the same sense of motion; 'leave,' for example, doesn't work. (For those who haven't studied the language: Russian verbs of motion are headache-inducing.)
Exit? Depart?
Not denying that Russian verbs of motion are tricky, but it just seems to me that there's got to be a decently evocative English word.
Fafblog is the best blog. It says so right there on the site.
I hasten to caution that my Russian is extremely rusty, read, but I like Tsvetaeva quite a little bit. Feel free to contact me at the linked email address.
it just seems to me that there's got to be a decently evocative English word.
Me too, but it's got to go with 'away' at the end of the line, and be simple like 'go.' 'I go from' works a little better.
Read is NSA, you suckers.
Only someone deep in the intelligence community would know that one says "X is NSA" and not "X is in the NSA". Ogged is clearly working something complicated here.
136: I believe that was IBM's terminology, no?
174: Retroactively EDiting comments to tRansmit sUbversive coded Messages?
139 I like Wikipedia just fine for a number of purposes, but I would be unlikely to use it to explain a political phenomenon.
I would, because the Wikipedia explenation will usually be the least biased version you could find on the web, even if it's often itself biased towards consentus rather than correctness.
thank you all
so next time i'll write you all an e-mail
i'll change to 'remembered' and to 'I go out of the sleepy house--away.'
she says simply 'idu - proch' so may be it's the closest
and i'll start to read the languagehat blog, great
Although posting translations here is still welcome -- with more people reading, you're likelier to get faster responses, and it is kind of fun.
really? i do so simple mistakes it's shameful
for example always do errors with the verb forms is, are
coz in mongolian we do not change verbs whether it's singular or plural nouns, in japanese also
in russian it changes but i learned russian when i was child, so it just comes naturally the grammar and we do not have articles, so articles are kinda tricky for me
i remember a chinese friend said that he always mixes she/he, coz they do not use she/he, it's the same pronoun
and i know nothing about english poetical canons
just try to keep it as close to the original as possible, in my opinion
Maybe we should have an interminible wiki thread. On Crooked Timber there were 2 or 3 wiki-haters.
There's a special way to read wiki -- realizing that it's often composite, and that some articles are much worse than others. It's still my first stop for something I'm uncertain about, and it's very useful about 80% of the time.
National and religious obsessions make some topics unmanageable.
Read, Ogged, and the Unfogged Central committee:
I have invited Steve of Language Hat over. However, it might be better to start over again with a new thread. Or Read, you could post it on your own blog, if you have one, and people could go there. Feel feel to email me at emersonj at gmail dot com.