Thanks. I could've used this advice months ago.
Seems to me this letter is in the category of letters that Dan Savage generally identifies as utter bullshit.
Yeah, I thought the same thing. But that's no reason not to deal with the issue.
LPSG.org has lots of anecdotes like this.
And after they all talked about how huge my member was, I broached the subject of a three-way. Two women, one man. Because I'm a feminist. Then we all opened a dog rescue, and I was pleased to serve as lead defense attorney.
Prudence got trolled.
This is what Slate's original video content is like? This is almost as useless as the New Yorker's animated cartoons.
White People hate it when their blog has too many substantive posts in one day.
I loved this letter. Dear Penthouse...
Ok, look, I think it's fake too, but it's not incontrovertibly fake; the scenario is plausible.
the scenario is plausible
This is a very subtle way to brag about your endowment, Ogged.
In the nearby possible world on crack, maybe.
Alternate post title: Slate Published My Letter!
12: It's also possible that I'm 6'4", dark, handsome, and a poetic, misunderstood soul. It rings warning bells, is the point.
14: Wait, Sex And The City wasn't ripped from the headlines?
Which of these posts is by ogged?
(probably nsfw, despite no pictures or video)
What, Bobala, is the totally implausible detail here?
Not the chatting about endowment. The whole 'and they heard about my magical cock of power, and came as like pilgrims bearing gifts. And invited me over, while naked, on flimsy pretenses!' Plus 'and I and my cock of justice know it would be wrong to stray, so my only question is, how do I make it stop?'
I didn't look at the video, but it strikes me as implausible that the girlfriend's friends, previously pleasant and normal, were all so enflamed by the thought of huge cock that they are now betraying their friend and throwing themselves at him.
Doesn't seem like the rumor of huge cock should be enough to spark that change in behavior.
(I for example, have not been tempted to sleep with people I don't otherwise want to sleep with, even though I know that my guyfriends are all hung like horses.)
Well, if anyone was going to suffer this "problem," it would be, um, a friend of mine. But he's untroubled. Ergo, women must not respond to gossip this way.
I fantasize about this happening, but it never has.
I think you're all underestimating the girlfriend's powers of description.
You feeling better, GW? Have you been using your excuse to do very indulgent things? You should.
Yeah. It's not that no one cares about size, but very few people care enough that they'd come on to a friend's boyfriend purely on the basis of reports about size.
(Also, to get clinical, there's a sweet spot size-wise. Big enough to be worthy of commentary as remarkable is likely to be bigger than the ideal for actual enjoyment for a lot of women. Size isn't a simple 'more is better' thing even for people for whom it's an issue.)
26: Perhaps they simply wanted to see it and not get too involved with it.
I'd be surprised to hear that many people would come onto a friend's boyfriend pure on the basis of reports of excellent sex of any kind.
I have overestimated a friend's loyalty before, though.
All of her friends.
This is going to be like the objine thing, isn't it?
Wait, the girlfriend's report is of excellent sex or just of a big cock?
Cala, it is your moral duty as a philosopher to work into a paper the notion of the nearby possible world on crack. That alone would justify the sacrifices necessary to get a Ph.D.
Yeah. One, maybe.
But if a whole bunch of women are coming on to him because his girlfriend speaks highly of his prowess, they're all in a social group where random screwing around is conventional, and the shocked, shocked air is nonsense. Or he's making the whole thing up.
28: perhaps they all hate her.
30: he only mentions the latter.
30: Just a big cock -- we're trying to give it the benefit of the doubt of plausibility by suggesting that the reports included implications of good sex along with the size commentary.
There has to be a market for small guys. The Kama Sutra says that while size is important, what's important is the match. Presumably here's an underground network matching smallish guys with smallish ladies.
But does it get publicity? No. The Man wouldn't let that happen.
Even though he's really not all that big, The Man's reputation for bigness is an essential part of his image.
Presumably here's an underground network matching smallish guys with smallish ladies.
"here" being this blog?
Thanks to economics, I can show that my cock size maximizes the utility of the women of the world. It's an upside-down U shape. Not my cock, the utility function.
That LPSG site is awesome. It includes both men writing earnest Dear Penthouse letters and other men making fun of the Dear-Penthouse quality of the letters. I love the internet. If that site had pictures of kittens it would be unstoppable.
31: I'm sure I could manage it in the paper that says "My interlocutor is a little bitch."
39 - You're writing a paper about w-lfs-n? He must be flattered.
30: If it were the former there might be a discussion to have, but it is the latter described with characteristic faux humility by the letter writer.
I am giving Ogged the benefit of the doubt that he recognized that this was a bindingly obvious troll playing on the bizarrely pervasive size insecurities of our mutual gender.
You know, he also claims that all the friends who are inviting him over are married, so yeah, implausible. Then again! He took up with his neighbor after moving to a new town, so maybe he's stumbled upon a warren of swingers. Could be!
I rather think "This is an obvious troll" but "It's plausible, right?" work against each other.
25: If only she had told more people!
Unless "It's plausible" is itself an obvious troll, but that couldn't be, because there are so many people interested.
Random thought: The probability that Prudence got trolled varies inversely with the probability that AWB knows the troll personally.
Ogged, do you want it to be true? How come?
The letter can be an obvious fake, depending on the language, while the scenario itself is not totally implausible. I think this letter is a fake.
we're trying to give it the benefit of the doubt of plausibility by suggesting that the reports included implications of good sex along with the size commentary.
But other than ogged, who is apparently still working through some issues relating to bpl's ex*, no one finds the story credible, right?
* I forget my Spinal Tap, but I think women believe guitar players have large cocks because the guitar acts subliminally. I guess it works on men, too.
Ogged wrote the letter, and is "shyly" boasting about success in a new venue. The job now is to go boast about trolling ability somewhere at Slate.
But why do you want the scenario itself to be true in some cases?
1) There's an Onion story somewhere headlined "Ugly Area Man Unsure About How To Get Word Out About Enormous Cock."
2) Doesn't seem like the rumor of huge cock should be enough to spark that change in behavior.
I wonder how this thread would be if the "problem" in question was, "They found out about my enormous wealth and now are all coming onto me." More plausible or less? More morally wrong or less?
Think: If this was an "Ask the Mineshaft", it would have been immediately rejected by the gatekeepers as too implausible.
I wonder how this thread would be if the "problem" in question was, "They found out about my enormous wealth and now are all coming onto me." More plausible or less?
Still implausible, since he claims all these women are married.
Anyway, have any of the people with access to the Unfogged cock database used it to decide who they should date? I have been presuming that the answer is no.
48: No, it shouldn't even depend on the language. When stories like this are told on the internet, they should be assumed lies unless proven otherwise, because it is the kind of thing the internet tempts people to troll about.
They found out about my enormous wealth and now are all coming onto me." More plausible or less?
Huh, that's a pretty good question. I'd say more plausible in the most general case, but given the specific descriptions, still extremely unlikely to be true. A lot of this is dependent on guesses about age for me.
31: Is the possible world itself on crack, or just all of the people in it? What would possible world crack be like?
What possible set of possible worlds contains possible world crack?
How distant is the nearest set of possible worlds with possible world crack in it from the actual set of possible worlds (assuming we can measure distance in the second order set which contains all the possible sets of possible worlds, including all the sets with possible world crack and the set without possible world crack)?
Megan, it sounds like ogged is attracted to the possibility of a swinger scene.
"My high-school aged daughter let slip that our dog has an enormous cock, and now her classmates are around here day and night trying to masturbate it -- help!"
Wait, have I mentioned here before that a girlfriend's friend actually did show up at the door in lingerie once? "Would you like to see my teddy?" God, she was cute, too. But that was inappropriate, and many moons ago.
"My high-school aged daughter let slip that our dog has an enormous cock, and now her classmates are around here day and night trying to masturbate it -- help!"
All the classmates: implausible.
60% of the female classmates: probably true.
have any of the people with access to the Unfogged cock database used it to decide who they should date?
That database is getting more and more specific. This is getting worrisome.
Up at 41:
30: If it were the former there might be a discussion to have, but it is the latter described with characteristic faux humility by the letter writer.
I am giving Ogged the benefit of the doubt that he recognized that this was a bindingly obvious troll playing on the bizarrely pervasive size insecurities of our mutual gender.
Even if it were the former I'm not sure there's a discussion to be had: great sex is personal (well, most of the time).
I seem to find it hard to believe that there are still bizarrely pervasive size insecurities among men. There you go. Like, what's that about? If you have a big cock, it's easier to please the woman, and y'all are worried about that? Huh.
In my experience, if a girlfriend goes after your man, you're usually a ghost of a third party, whether you know about it or not.
Wait, have I mentioned here before that a girlfriend's friend actually did show up at the door in lingerie once? "Would you like to see my teddy?" God, she was cute, too.
If this is even a little bit true, it's going to take more than an Obama victory in the general to save this year for me.
Wait, have I mentioned here before that a girlfriend's friend actually did show up at the door in lingerie once? "Would you like to see my teddy?"
You already got Slate to turn your story into a video, don't go too far by fleshing out all these details.
I seem to find it hard to believe that there are still bizarrely pervasive size insecurities among men. There you go. Like, what's that about? If you have a big cock, it's easier to please the woman, and y'all are worried about that? Huh.
There are also size insecurities among women, you know.
This was in college. Does that even count?
48: You're right "not totally implausible" or to use my newly discovered ur-litotes via Lyndon LaRouche it as a "not entirely excluded possibility".
What is more interesting is why guys are driven in things like this to the size thing and not per 30, just some performance-based sexual or even non-sexual characteristic. It really is a very "interesting" psycho-sexual feature of men as a group. (And seeing 64 on preview - I am not sure what it is, any anthropologists here? are cock-size jokes pervasive in all human cultures?)
This was in college. Does that even count?
Why wouldn't it count? (Gawd, I hate you.)
Is it that you like the idea of a world with lots of deviance in it?
I mean, coming on to your friend's boyfriend because of a newly revealed asset is crappy behavior, whether it is cock size or wealth.
Is it the notion that lots of people do crappy things that appeals to you? Or the titillating part that women abandon all norms for big cock? When we're all -hmm, not persuasive, how come you're all - Woo-hoo! Could be!
68: No.
There are also size insecurities among women, you know.
Not once you grow up!
Wait, have I mentioned here before that a girlfriend's friend actually did show up at the door in lingerie once? "Would you like to see my teddy?"
That's pretty tame. For example: A girlfriends mother show me her (brand new) labia piercings once.
Shorter 69: Social construction or something from the veldt?
.. or impossible to discuss without picking the low-hanging fruit?
I remember seeing an argument somewhere that apparent flaccid cock-size increased with age, just on the 'everything droops and stretches' principle. And so that cock-size insecurities were a way for older men to sell themselves as physically more imposing than younger men; the CEO is going to have a bigger cock at the urinals than the hot young muscular mailroom guy.
This may be complete bullshit either at the first level -- I don't know if it's physically true on average -- or on the psychosocial level. But I read it somewhere, which makes it good enough to repeat.
are cock-size jokes pervasive in all human cultures
I have mentioned here before that the aristocracy of classical Greece thought that a small, uncircumcised cock best represented the natural refinement of their tribe.
A girlfriends mother show me her (brand new) labia piercings once.
Funeral arrangements for Timbot are pending. In lieu of flowers, the family asks that you make a donation to eharmony.
72 just isn't even close to true. At least, not unless you want to discount a sizable population from ever growing up. Which is probably defensible.
I have mentioned here before that the aristocracy of classical Greece thought that a small, uncircumcised cock best represented the natural refinement of their tribe.
We're talking here about cultures that use vaginal sex, not intercrural sex.
76: Building on that, I understand in some cultures it's testicle weight that's measured and discussed. Due to seminiferous content, maybe, but just as constructed.
Actually, now that I think about it...college, it could just have been teasing and harmless flirting. Yes, that's it. Teasing and harmless flirting.
77: Only if mom was cute.
77 makes no sense to me.
Does it make it better or worse that said gf (and 1/2 a dozen others) were in the room once when she did that?
When we're all -hmm, not persuasive, how come you're all - Woo-hoo! Could be!
Because I'm a gimlet-eyed realist, my hippie friend. Blabbing girlfriend: I believe. Frustrated, backstabbing friends: I believe. Self-congratulating letter writer: I believe. It's a sad story, in the end, and we have to face it squarely.
82: They both were.
gf was 16, mom was 37. They placed 1 & 2 in a wet-t contest that year, for what it's worth.
college, it could just have been teasing and harmless flirting. Yes, that's it. Teasing and harmless flirting.
You know, this was when I was visiting my then-girlfriend at Reed, where they have co-ed showers, and this same woman took the shower stall next to me the next day. I think she was like, coming on to me or something. Anyway, of course nothing came of it.
They placed 1 & 2 in a wet-t contest that year
Ahahaha. Classy.
Who won?
84- That's silly. All the people I know would never do that.
The daughter won.
They were both classy in their way, actually. Bikers though, different way of looking at things.
('Cept, of course, for my former best friend.)
gf was 16, mom was 37. They placed 1 & 2 in a wet-t contest that year, for what it's worth.
Gawddammit. That sucks. But it would be worse if you were ogged, somehow.
Wow. That's a way to apportion the fault that I'd never thought of. I thought I'd beaten that episode long past death. Shocking, really, to come up with new angles on it years later.
How dare she tell everyone about Megan's enormous penis?
Ach, conclusion of the thread: cock- and tit-waving wins.
What would possible world crack be like?
It tastes like boysenberry and cures lupus.
Crack give Bizarro Superman Bizarro Super Power!
Anyway, of course nothing came of it.
Area Man Total Pussy, Reports Say.
This story actually happened to Kobe.
88: Most Reed alumni have already hear that story. She claims that yours is corkscrew shaped like a warthog's. She still would have been willing, but she concluded that you were differently oriented.
Blabbing girlfriend: I believe. Frustrated, backstabbing friends: I believe. Self-congratulating letter writer: I believe.
It is would be an assumption to say the neighbor lady he is screwing is his girl friend. He never calls her that. She is probably a woman with a healthy sexual appetite that enjoys having sex with a guy with an enormous dick.
I dated someone once with an enormous unit. It was huge. When it was hard, it was so big that it flopped down like a train crossing gate. What was notable about our sex life was his size, not the quality of the sex itself. I told all of my friends about his package. If they had lived near me, I'm sure they would have called him. Just to see it. To make sure I wasn't exaggerating.
Not because they are backstabbing, more to share a laugh.
When it was hard, it was so big that it flopped down like a train crossing gate.
Like, with bells and flashing lights and so on? Was it black and white striped?
To be specific, Mr. Washington's unit was 555 feet 5 1/8 inches long. It's on display somewhere and is a major tourist attraction. But from a feminist point of view, Martha's unit is equally impressive.
Was it black and white striped?
She said a crossing gate, not a zebra. German spy.
mein Gott, Führer, der enorme Penis wie ein Zebra aussieht! Gotterdamerung, ein Zug!
It was huge
You can't intimidate us with these subjective assessments. How huge? This huge? (NSFW)
Surely, mein Führer, we cannot fight the war on two fronts penises.
Shocking, really, to come up with new angles on it years later.
OMG! When I told my former best friend that the UNG was being a gigantic dick, she must have thought... God, she must be feeling pretty stupid now.
(I told her husband UNG was an unbelievable asshole.)
FWIW, I will weigh in with the opinion that the story is substantially more plausible if the GF is bragging about the fellow's massive financial endowment. Because I can imagine people being that single-mindedly focused on money. I really just can't imagine getting all that goofy over Moby Dick.
First woman might be trying to pass the guy on. I knew a guy whose much older girlfriend tried to lend him to a friend for the friend's birthday. I believe this story because although he was a total man-slut he was very indignant about it. And then there was the acquaintance who seduced my boyfriend because she wondered what I saw in him. People are so weird.
You know, every time I see a new comment in the sidebar on the "It Could Happen to You" thread, I think it's in response to this post.
There needs to be a post titled "You Never Thought".
I knew a guy whose much older girlfriend tried to lend him to a friend for the friend's birthday.
This is hot too.
Keep the stories coming, they give me hope!
I knew a guy whose much older girlfriend tried to lend him to a friend for the friend's birthday.
Erm, this actually happened to me as well (she wasn't older, we were the same age). I was was happy to go along. Her friend was really cute, too!
George and Martha clearly have some things to work out.
Keep the stories coming, they give me hope!
One of my ex-girlfriends tried to loan me to her sister who was still a virgin. She also repeatedly tried to coordinate threesomes, including with her sister's roommate. Another one told a bunch of our shared acquaintances positive things about penis size which lead to subsequent harassment. Sadly the shared acquaintances were gay. One of my male friends figured that he bond of friendship was stronger than his troubled relationship, so set me up with all the girls that he wanted to sleep with but didn't because it would be cheating.
But there was never anything involving anyone's mom, that I know of.
very few people care enough that they'd come on to a friend's boyfriend purely on the basis of reports about size.
skill, not size.
But nothing shocks me anymore.
I totally believe that this could be a real scenario, in that some women are really into big cock. I had a girlfriend who tried to seduce one of my boyfriends, and one of my exes, because I'd mentioned (conversationally, during a conversation about cock size) some serious equipment, and I was sort of annoyed by how shallow it seemed. She wasn't interested in them at all before, and then suddenly she was writhing every time she pronounced their names. I can imagine, as a guy, feeling somewhat annoyed and insulted that you weren't interesting at all before, and now, suddenly, you're an object of universal lustation.
BUT! It's really douchey to write to an advice columnist with this as your "problem," and Prudence's advice is stupid. Why air a vid like this in which the advice is, "Say no, by, uh, saying no"? Mere titillation?
skill, not size.
That's what doesn't make sense to me. My girlfriends never pursue the guys I say are really great in bed, but legends of a huge cock make them crazy with demented lust. Maybe because no one agrees about what makes for a skillful lay? (People who disagree with me, for example, are just wrong.)
I'm not suggesting that these people are polite or good friends, but I've known of people who has sex with their roommates boyfriends while the roommate was in the shower, lots of trying out boyfriends or girlfriends of friends just bc they were rumored to be good, lots of hanky panky by otherwise good friends, and lots of other devious bad sexual exploits.
It happens. All the time. All around you.
Yeah, I'm not really incredulous about the odd attempted seduction, just that a number of her friends are after him on the basis of cock size. That's either untrue, or a feature of their social group in which case the faux shock is nonsense.
113
honestly, almost. That gentleman may have several centimeters on my fellow, but the over all impression- which in my case was one of sheer terror- was the same.
Ogged, I find it so interesting that you have these images readily accessible- surely you didn't find that one in Wikipedia?!
All aroundyou. You're the Typhoid Mary of relationships.
Wait, no. You're a bad-relationship magnet. I don't know that you cause them.
Many if not most of the cases of the kind you're speaking of that I've known of have ended up producing ended friendships either between the cheater and the cheated, or between the two best friends. One case alienated two brothers from one another, and one brother from his wife.
You're a bad-relationship magnet.
He's a divorce lawyer.
I've never seen spell-check mangle "gobbled" like that before, Ogged.
131: You couldn't do the decent thing and pretend it was from the Unfogged collection, could you?
132:
Well, yea. If they get caught.
They dont always get caught.
I'm not the Typhoid Mary. I'm the Father Confessor. I learn of the sins. The funny stories are from the people who are amazed that they got caught in one relatively minor transgressions when their shocking sins go undiscovered.
It does happen, all the time, all around you. Whether that's a good thing is another question. But! This is not the time or place for that sort of question. It's a thing that some people do, and probably many of us have done it. Let us flirt and salivate. So sez the Mineshaft.
surely you didn't find that one in Wikipedia?!
Wikipedia is surprisingly explicit, though. The article on masturbation has a handy two-frame photograph, demonstrating how to stroke one's penis (turns out you move your hand up, and then you move your hand down).
I knew that parsimon was my kind of woman.
131: You couldn't do the decent thing and pretend it was from the Unfogged collection, could you?
And out Slack?
Let us flirt and salivate. So sez the Mineshaft.
When exactly has "the Mineshaft" said this, as a chorus? Because I think I missed that boat. Mostly it tends to sing out, "Leave humans alone and be ashamed of yourself, and learn ancient languages while you're at it!"
It happens. All the time. All around you.
I always suspected this. But never to me! You're the sort of person that they happen to or you're not.
That's probably why I'm a man-slut. A few annoying friends of friends hitting on you, and I'd quickly morph into Bored and Jaded Man.
And then there's the other extreme, faithful married couples who don't have sex with each other either.
I dunno. Does it count as fidelity if you're not having sex with each other?
("You've had as much sex with every woman in your office as you've had with your own wife!")
I always suspected this. But never to me! You're the sort of person that they happen to or you're not.
Actually, I would divide it up into the sort of person that realizes it might happen to you and the person who thinks it would never happen to them.
Naive people of the world.
If your spouse fucks around in the forest and no one hears about it, did it really happen?
You're saying they weren't in the woods for the hunting?
I love Not Prince Hamlet.
For the record, I get it on with Not Prince Hamlet as often as I get it on with AWB and LB. Together!
Yeah, the weird thing is that there's basically no difference between the me who has occasionally found myself the object of other people's bizarre complex porny sex schemes and the me who has a really rough time even managing the most straightforward and unkinky relationship, except that the me who found myself in those schemes was thinking, at the time, "I bet people all around me are having weird crazy sexual ideas about everyone all the time" and the me who is a total sexual failure is thinking "I'm sure everyone around me is really busy and not very interested in sex." Quantum sexual magnetism!
as often as I get it on with AWB and LB
Dude, now there's a really really good idea. Can we get dispensation for this?
There are lots of cases of people who courted one sibling and then switched and married another. E.G. my brothers #1 and #2 (the unmarried one was the lucky one.)
That's a major theme in XIXc literature and also literary history. Likewise the lone poet in love with his wife's bestfriend (e.g. Nietzsche, twice). Presumably it's shyness- and restrictive class standards-related. But there's seldom actual boom-boom involved, at least in the novels. More often suicide and tragic suffering.
I resent that will and I have equally dark reviews of relationships, but he has better anecdotes and also make lots of money off it.
149: We're having Schrodinger's Orgy, right here in the comments.
O. But afterwards we have to say 10 Hail Mary's and rub those beads a couple of times.
I also love him not. Now, anyway. The motherfucker.
I resent that will and I have equally dark reviews of relationships, but he has better anecdotes and also make lots of money off it.
Actually, I am a fan of relationships. I just think that a successful relationship doesnt have to be measured in decades.
142: I was being pretty deeply ironic. It's probably true that a lot of us have been involved in weird scenarios that could be called hot'n'sexy, the hott half-naked friend's boyfriend who shows up in your doorway, the furtive shedding of clothes while the recent ex is a room away: things about which this thread wants to say woo-hoo! Brag material. It's not really brag material.
People do these things sometimes. Usually you keep it private, and it fucks things up, and you don't brag about it. Around here I guess the woo-hoo is an extension of the view that flirting is .. I'm not sure: titillating.
Obviously, Will, on the average you make more money on 10 five-year relationships than on one 50-year relationship. Basically you want the marriage to last until there's some net worth, but not a lot longer. Sort of like the way old-growth trees aren't a good use of land, since the profitable growth is mostly in the first 30 or 40 years.
things about which this thread wants to say woo-hoo! Brag material. It's not really brag material.
People do these things sometimes. Usually you keep it private, and it fucks things up, and you don't brag about it
Well, yea. Of course. We dont have to feel the shame and humilation. We can just laugh and applaud.
We dont have to pack the boxes, sell the house, live on less, divide up the friends, part ways with the family members of the cuckhold, see the hurt in another's eyes, or try to justify the unjustifyable.
Hypothetically speaking of course. I would never do such a thing.
I'd say among most 20-somethings cheating in a relationship can be hard to take seriously, granted that few relationships at that age are intended for the long term. But I think that Will is talking about seriously-intended relationships with something at stake and at least one partner ending up angry and cheated.
Part of my family is sticking with my niece's ex-partner. We're an unromantic bunch, if you didn't guess, and we like kids and parents better than we like spouses. For one thing, he's one of the least unpleasant people who's ever come into our family via relationship, which isn't saying a whole lot.
I'm actually trying to drive will out of business, but no one ever listens to Cassandra, so he's safe.
It's not really brag material.
Not to brag about, no. On the other hand, not shameful, either. Running around behind peoples backs isn't doing anyone any favors but you can end up in some very interestingly complicated situations with everything above board and everyone having fun.
Around here I guess the woo-hoo is an extension of the view that flirting is .. I'm not sure: titillating.
But. Um. Flirting IS titillating.
Right? Isn't that the whole point, more or less?
168: Also anecdotes, grand operas, legal cases, murder cases, and decades of self-pity and impotent anger.
163: That's exactly why you should talk it out before hand. Doesn't work for everyone, natch.
Probably I'm useful to Will if one of his clients starts getting uppity. Will can just slap him down with "Look, Emerson tried and tried to tell you. It's your own damn fault. So suck up your guts and don't give me any grief".
That's exactly why you should talk it out before hand.
I continue to be mystified as to why people who will put up with all sorts of shit in their relationships/marriages consider cheating the One Deadly Sin. But I'm extremely happy for one friend whose asshole husband finally got around to cheating on her and giving her Good Cause to end the sorry mess, which did wonders for her happiness.
Running around behind peoples backs isn't doing anyone any favors but you can end up in some very interestingly complicated situations with everything above board and everyone having fun.
It is probably a good thing, economically speaking, that you are in favor of BYO wedding receptions.
176: The other stuff is easy to rationalize away.
168: Not shameful if it's above-board, no. What I don't get is the woo-hoo in these scenarios where it's obviously not.
But look, it's not an all or nothing scenario anyway: it's not like messing around when it's not above-board is flatly shameful. At least, shame is a very powerful word. As I said, these things do happen. You generally don't want to do them, but that's not merely in the case of marriage or even a serious relationship: you also don't want to do it when you know your current partner will be hurt by it. Which is why I don't get the woo-hoo even about the girl showing up in a teddy.
People really still believe in True Love, and Finally I've Found The One, and This Will Be Forever, and Two Hearts Beating As One, and For Everyone There's That One Certai Person.
Sociobiology skeptics can sneer, but sociobiology makes relationships more intelligable than rational actor theory does. (Did I mention that I think Becker is loony and also unpleasant?)
178: That doesn't explain anything. The urge to screw around is one that we all feel to one degree or another. Why is giving in to that harder to rationalize away than plain old assholiness?
I also think that the "honesty" dodge isn't as helpful as people think. Honesty is very difficult in the best of cases, and there are all kinds of things making honesty difficult: self-deception, eagerness to please, fear of abandonment, unacknowledged meanness, failure to read signals, cowardliness, unwillingness to inflict pain, self-serving interpretations. Some of these are not even bad reasons.
Which is why I don't get the woo-hoo even about the girl showing up in a teddy.
Because that doesn't happen to a lot of guys I know. It's like asking, "Why the woo-hoo for meeting a space alien?"
184: oh like you'd retain a stony silence as that probe got jammed up your ass.
Retain, obtain, maintain, contain, entertain.
My sister was most hurt by her sociopath ex's unfaithfulness, rather than the much worse things he did.
When my wife "cheated", I wasn't upset, but I came to believe that I was supposed to be (even though we were in the Free Love world), and that my acceptance made her feel that she'd lost her mysterious power.
183: Oh, I didn't say it was easy. Just that, in my experience anyway, works really well for all involved.
177: good for me, or for the economy?
184: Tim has strengths in unexpected areas.
I think your right, on one hand Prince. My sister was also married to an asshole, and when she married him we all knew going into it that he was an asshole, and apparently this was something she was willing to put up with (?!?*&^%%). When he cheated on her, which he did with a "friend" of theirs, then all bets were off. She had bargained for him being an asshole, but not necessarily on an asshole who cheats. For many this wound is unbearable, where other blows are somehow... bearable.
Cheating, and the dishonesty around cheating, are really really horrible to experience.
Am I buying into something saying this?
Cheating, and the dishonesty around cheating, are really really horrible to experience.
From the outside, that looks right to me. I really don't understand why people do it.
188: I've seen a fair amount of honesty kabuki. "It's really OK, dear, isn't it?" "Yes, dear, it's OK". [my life is ruined, but at least you're happy. 50% is pretty good odds when you look at the big picture.]
Fleur are you talking to the Prince? The musician? Where is he?
194: Prince is in his purple satin undies.
My girlfriends never pursue the guys I say are really great in bed, but legends of a huge cock make them crazy with demented lust. Maybe because no one agrees about what makes for a skillful lay?
Yes, because there's no agreement on the skill factor..."all else being equal, at least this is quantifiable".
As long as you weren't actively insulting about the actual talents of the large-penised ones.
181: I'm not sure what you want that isn't a history lesson on property, heirs, and all of that. But I think a more modern interpretation is that while you promise lots of things, e.g., in a marriage, infidelity is the only one that is framed (partially due to history) as all or nothing. I can promise to love and support shivbunny, and fail at an individual instance of that while succeeding at loving him overall. I can't cheat on him and not-cheat-on-him.
The latter breaks the promise (usually implicit); the former is always framed as something every long-term couple has to work through. And if everyone's telling you that everyone fights, it can be hard to decide that *your* fight really means the end. There's not the same pressure with fidelity.
Why air a vid like this [...] Mere titillation?
AWB has found another use for the Internet.
197: "he's got a huge cock but he wields it like a railroad crossing!"
198: I can't cheat on him and not-cheat-on-him
What if it was just a blowjob?
192 addendum: I mean that I understand why people start down that road. I don't understand why more of them don't figure out it's likely to be a bad tradeoff.
Th savage Vikings had a different understanding of this. In the Njal Saga there's a man named Hrut who is too large for any woman:
"In describing the problem to her father, Unn says "when he comes to me his penis is so large that he can't have any satisfaction from me, and we've both tried every possible way to enjoy each other, but nothing works." Njal's Saga § 7.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunnhild_Mother_of_Kings
People who don't have this problem don't understand how terrible it is, especially when you constantly have to listen to ohers bragging about their rather modest, but at least usable units.
The urge to screw around is one that we all feel to one degree or another. Why is giving in to that harder to rationalize away than plain old assholiness?
We rationalize away all of it but convincing ourselves not to recognize it. He lost his temper because things are so stressful at work. He only said that stuff because he's trying to help me improve. He really does have to work late all the time. Mostly, we don't face shit until denial is no longer possible.
I have never seen anyone here say "Woo hoo! Cheating and lying to your partner is awesome!" Did I not read the thread carefully enough?
Listen, for some people, complicated (and sometimes spontaneous) sex is what they want, and it's great when they can structure their lives to deal with it in an ethical way. And I say woo hoo to them.
Certain kinds of complications I don't handle well---I'm really not sexually attracted to the thought of cheating on anyone, never have been so much as tempted to do it. I'm sort of plagued with guilt and shame about those sorts of things, and I'm not someone for whom guilt and shame are arousing. I've never really understood how those feelings aren't a total wet blanket.
OTOH, if I have a problem, it's not that I feel shame about having sexual desire, but I often am plagued with feeling that my desire is a huge burden or imposition on other people. So I don't screw around like I used to because all I can think is, "Really? You want to put up with me all night?" And then I decide to do nothing.
I'm just surprised with the WE NEED MORE SHAME AND CARE! tone here of late. Most people here, I'm guessing, are the sort of shy, non-imposing sort who don't actively go around ruining people's lives with their irrepressible sexy-sexy.
And flirtation is not, IMHO, cheating. I like to see my partners flirt with other people. It's kinda hot.
Right, and cheating (at least in our culture, for most people) cuts through a lot of denial.
Lot's of people, M and F, put up with infidelity, but often or usually (if it's not a front marriage) they feel demeaned and humiliated.
I think that people sometimes tend to think of sexual intimacy as the one last pure uncorrupted sincere thing in the world, and have trouble accepting that it's just like other stuff.
Cheating, and the lying involved, are really really horrible. Primarily if you're on the receiving end; also if you're the facilitator and get caught being an asshole.
184: Because that doesn't happen to a lot of guys I know. It's like asking, "Why the woo-hoo for meeting a space alien?"
Tim, somehow I think there's more to it. It's the tits and ass, dude, which is, like, fair game, I think is the idea, for a snigger and a brag.
208: other things can't be sincere?
As long as you weren't actively insulting about the actual talents of the large-penised ones.
Actually, in one case, I was, because this woman got so hot under the collar during a conversation in which I mentioned his size (as a problem, actually). She was going to hunt him down and find him and fuck him and blah blah blah and I got sick of hearing about it (this being an actual ex of mine and such conversation being somewhat disturbing to me), so I told her he was no great shakes in the sack at all, fairly unenthusiastic and not very skilled, and she still didn't shut up about it. That was annoying.
In Chinese culture during the time when a man could legally take a second wife or a concubine, the wife was often hurt, sometimes terribly hurt. It was publicly OK, but that doesn't mean that the wife really accepted it. She had no recourse as long as her support continued.
213: she could get that Zhang Yimou fellow on the horn and get western movie audiences all bothered.
Right, and cheating (at least in our culture, for most people) cuts through a lot of denial.
Yeah, once you actually confront are confronted with the fact of a partner having actual sex with someone else, it's a fact -- no ambiguity, no room for denial. Other horrible things can be written off, like you said, with "everyone fights" or "I'm being too sensitive" or whatever else.
212: Do you think it's just the novelty of it? Someone who's never had that experience and has just bought into this big mythic narrative of the magic of the giant cock?
I can't cheat on him and not-cheat-on-him
Now is the time for the Llew Llaw Gyffes allusion, for he could not be slain within a house, nor without, neither mounted nor on foot. And yet he could be slain.
I'm sure there's some similar technicality you can use to cheat and not-cheat.
people who will put up with all sorts of shit in their relationships/marriages consider cheating the One Deadly Sin.
Say you've realized your lover's an asshole in many ways, but you've decided you can work on things. When he cheats, he's an asshole who doesn't care, so why should you bother?
Or pretty much what Cala said, I guess.
216: Yeah. I mean, totally abstracted from someone's personality and sexual ability, the promise of a huge cock can be sort of titillating. I don't have a cock to play with, and the novelty and variety offered by the idea of a particularly big one can be fun. When that guy I was briefly seeing last summer broke it off, I knew, intellectually, that I wouldn't particularly miss the sex, which was mediocre at best, but I have to admit there were many sighs over the loss of access to such a prodigious body part. I can't particularly explain why I felt that way, either.
It's the tits and ass, dude, which is, like, fair game, I think is the idea, for a snigger and a brag.
Parsimon, wtf? I'm starting to feel like I should go stand in the corner and think about how vulgar I've been.
Say you've realized your lover's an asshole in many ways, but you've decided you can work on things. When he cheats, he's an asshole who doesn't care, so why should you bother?
Plus, you know, it's something concrete, something you really don't have to try to explain to people. "Why are you splitting up?" "He cheated." "Oh! How awful!" Alot of equally (or more) shitty stuff is harder to explain (to yourself or anyone else). There was a time when I secretly wished the UNG would just have an affair or take a swing or just get a freaking DUI so I would have an objective and unambiguous explanation for throwing in the towel.
219: similar to the lure of the perfect breasts, despite their lack of utility when seeking physical gratification.
I'm sure there's some similar technicality you can use to cheat and not-cheat.
Eatin' ain't cheatin'. And yet, eatin' is cheatin'.
And flirtation is not, IMHO, cheating. I like to see my partners flirt with other people. It's kinda hot.
There was a thread about this some time past, before I started reading this blog. It's something we differ on -- and of course it's not cheating -- but neither view is right (or wrong).
Aren't we exaggerating here - I don't know a single couple who broke up because of a one night thing - and most people I know have cheated and/or been cheated on. In my experience it's like any other nasty hit to a relationship, people always try to work through it, and generally do. The greatest difficulty occurs if the two people have different views of how serious cheating is. If one is thinking hey, why are you being so difficult about this, I was horny and had a few drinks and you weren't available, it's not like I don't prefer you, I'll try not to do it again, and the other is thinking can't you at least be sorry - there's a problem.
219: I suppose that's one of the benefits of late-blooming. Big, small, cut, uncut -- they pretty much are all still a novelty to me. A fascinating, fascinating novelty.
221: Maybe you should have had the affair. Let him inspire the sympathy of others, what do you care.
220: I don't understand. Maybe I just mean that "hubba hubba, don't you want to fuck her (him)" gets on my nerves? Not sure. If that seems excessively prudish, I'll, uh, have to think about that.
219: When that guy I was briefly seeing last summer broke it off,
Yeah, I hate it when that happens...
226: I was tempted twice in a dozen years -- once before we were married and once before we were divorced. AWB's comment above sums it up:
I'm sort of plagued with guilt and shame about those sorts of things, and I'm not someone for whom guilt and shame are arousing.
(In the one case, that is in retrospect a damn shame. In the other, it was a damn good thing.)
Maybe I just mean that "hubba hubba, don't you want to fuck her (him)" gets on my nerves? Not sure. If that seems excessively prudish
It depends on context, parsimon. There are times when, "hubba hubba, don't you want to fuck him/her" is inappropriate. This context (a woman showing up at a man's door in lingerie) doesn't seem like one of those times. In other words, yeah: excessively prudish.
To complicate the issue of what cheating means: I recently (I'm well into the normal age range here on unfogged) found out that the reason my parents got divorced is that my mom cheated on my dad. Up until this point I had pretty much blamed my dad, for not living up to my mom's standards. Now, I have to reconcile the idea that my mom, who I've always felt guilty about disappointing, was herself a failure in a pretty profound way. On the other hand, they are human beings, and I don't (and will never) know the situation. It was also decades ago, and aside from me, everybody's had years to deal with their feelings and put them out of their heads. Should I just forgive my mom as best I can? Should I talk it out with her? Should I blame her? What does that even mean? Thoughts?
I'm sorry to hear it, U.S.
Should I just forgive my mom as best I can?
Yes.
Should I talk it out with her?
Dear god, no.
I'm not sure why anyone is actually tring to explain the appeal of chicks showing up at your door in lingerie.
I wouldn't worry about it Ulysses, other than to give both your parents a break. I used to totally worship my dad and demonize my mom, and finding out my dad had an extra-marital affair (mom still doesn't know, brother found out and told me) sort of helped me put things in perspective. Mom was mentally ill and actually, Dad ignored it for twenty years. He wanted us to see him as the saint so he sort of let her self-destruct over and over again. For some reason, it took finding out about the affair to help me see that, but now I feel a lot more able to treat my parents as adults who both made bad decisions, but who feel genuinely trapped in a really hostile relationship that somehow gets less hostile as they age.
To complicate matters, I found out because my mom let the matter slip in an inappropriate way at a highly inappropriate moment. So she knows I know, and I have no idea what she might think about what she did, and I have even less idea why she told me.
I also don't really have any idea what happened. I've talked to my dad, who was evasive while insisting that I had the right to know. These are adults, obviously, and talking to my dad has made me aware in a way I wasn't before that these were adults going through a tremendously painful time, with bad acts on both sides, but I feel in some ways like I need more clarity on what happened. How do I get that, if I can at all? Will it help?
I've been cheated on in a disturbingly similar way to how my dad was cheated on. I've also, if I'm going to be completely honest, been closer to my mom in the years since the divorce, sometimes to my dad's detriment. I guess I don't really know how to navigate this.
I was being pretty flippant earlier, which probably undermined the idea I was trying to get through.
One of the best things I ever figured out was that a relationship can be whatever the people involved want it to be. If they're mature enough to make that true, nearly anything can work. Doesn't mean it's perfect. That being said, Johns comment about the kabuki thing makes sense --- but I also think you're already fucked if a deception like that can work. People are complicated, so relationships are complicated. I just don't buy into the idea that the things are ok or not ok are somehow circumscribed outside of the relationship. It's the easiest path to follow in some ways, but there's no particularly good reason to do that.
Your mom told you? Ew.
Too bad, because I was going to say to keep it in reserve like a conversational nuclear device.
Why tell you now? What screwballs. Maybe I should tell my parents that if they have any kind of secret shit like this that they should just keep it to themselves.
but I feel in some ways like I need more clarity on what happened
I can't speak from direct experience, but I think this may pass... and I think for me, more clarity wouldn't help as much as I might think. Use the knowledge to allow yourself to be more forgiving to both of your parents, but I don't know that there's much value in getting more.
U.S. Grant: It sounds pretty tough for you right now. I don't know how much this helps, but I'd try and look at it from the perspective of your parents as people, not just as your parents. Of course they screwed up some times, everybody does.
Let anything go that you can, it won't help you or them to rehash it unless there is need. If there is anything you really can't let go -- try to explain why, while your asking for information.
At the end of it all, you have a lot of choice in how you let this affect your relationship with them. The situation they made for themselves, well, it really isn't about you.
Recognizing your parents as people, flawed like all of us, is a difficult thing. I think it often feels a bit like a betrayal under any circumstances. Most of that, though, lives in our own heads. They were who they were before we realized it.
Aw, Ulysses. No advice but to remember that they're human and try to take it from there.
231, 234: In other words, yeah: excessively prudish
Ha, okay, I'll think about this. It's peculiar, because I'm not prudish by my definition. gswift, I understand intellectually the appeal, I just don't understand it viscerally. Here's one thing: if seeing people naked in a nonsexual way is not that unusual, you probably don't have as much of a reaction to it.
Lingerie usually helps identify the nudity as sexual.
Parsimon... are you trolling? It's artfully done, if so.
245: Parsimon likes to maintain plausible deniability.
gswift, I understand intellectually the appeal
Apparently not!
US Grant, my parents revealed a similar thing, and it was clear that once revealed, they didn't really didn't want to talk about it until they were ready to. I'd let it lie if you can; chances are that your mom will raise it again if she raised it (however inappropriately) in the first place, though it may take years.
I have gotten laid because someone else said I was good in bed. This pwns 127, plus permits me to boast. Commenting on the Internet is probably downhill from this moment for me.
246: I'm not. I just keep asking myself what my reaction would be if a guy showed up on my doorstep in a thong or some such and said, Wanna see my g-string? It's not working for me. Not unless it's someone I know.
Hell, like I said, I'm puzzled by how annoyed I get at this hubba hubba stuff, and the celebrity gawking, and the great tits!!! show us your ass! stuff, because apparently I'm an outlier.
Well, right, but that's because men in thongs look ridiculous.
232: You know, USG, if all this time you believed your dad was seriously not giving your mom what she needed in the marriage, consider the affair in that light. A person who is lonely and hurting can crave comfort and nurturing pretty desperately. Some people cheat because they are selfish, hedonistic bastards. Some people cheat because they are lost and lonely and desperate for affection. There are probably a hundred shades in between. Your mom is human. Your dad probably is too.
Maybe I just mean that "hubba hubba, don't you want to fuck her (him)" gets on my nerves? Not sure. If that seems excessively prudish, I'll, uh, have to think about that.
I just feel like we're not reading the same thread. To me it looks like Can This Be True? and People Sure Are Strange. Well, that and cock jokes. But those are, um, fundamental.
There are a lot of things I could do to hurt my fiancee, but the only one I'm actually tempted to do is cheat on her. And that's also the only way I could hurt her not because of any negative feelings toward her, or even negligence toward her - just positive feelings in another direction.
So even in a good relationship like ours, there's the temptation, for everyone. And if someone gives in, he reveals himself as the weaker one in the relationship.
Oh, also, USG. "Clarity" is probably something you'll never really have. Because it happened in a time when both of your parents were in pain and probably weren't in a position to see it objectively. And looking back to try to analyze it now, it's too hard not to rewrite history in ways that will fit into whatever narrative your mom, your dad, and you need now -- all of which will probably be conflicting.
Also, the Ugly Naked Guy used to always talk about wanting to know what happened in his parents' divorce, why his mom cheated and walked out. I don't think the "clarity" of her deciding one day to tell him that his father was lousy in bed was all that helpful to him.
252: Comity!
254: Cock jokes, fundamental.
I'm off. Ned, don't do it.
And if someone gives in, he reveals himself as the weaker one in the relationship.
This is just part of the whole relationship setting that is both apparently very common, and pretty bizarre to me.
260: That would put you in the minority.
256: That's the thing, though. I feel like I have been fitting these events into a narrative - one where my mom left my dad because he couldn't live up to what she needed from him, especially with a child - and that narrative was a lie.
I guess that I'll be able to reconcile this with how I understand their lives, but in another way, I feel like a lot of how I understand the world and my place in it is based on this specific understanding of what happened in their divorce, an understanding that's all been completely upended. Upended for the better, probably, in the long run, but gosh it seems like I've wasted a lot of time harping on a half-truth.
It's like this totally changes my understanding of what it means to be a man, and whether my dad was one, in quite profound ways. It's like, all this time, I've been trying not to replicate my dad's failures, while never even knowing who he really was. In trying to avoid becoming who I've believed him to be, I may have become who he was, without even knowing it. It's that dawning realization that feels like a betrayal, more than anything else.
Okay, the "someone hot showing up at my door" thing is difficult, because, while it makes for a convenient fantasy (Tony Leung gets lost in Brooklyn and, in a panic, rings my doorbell. I think he's the UPS guy and he shows up, asking where he is and we suddenly grab each other and totally go at it), it would probably, in actuality, 999 times out of a thousand, be a terrible and awkward and bad thing. I think that's pretty obviously what's happening with the guy in the video, if it's indeed sincere, that even Prudie (HATE) responds that "Most guys would love that yuk yuk" and truly, most guys think they would.
I really don't think most people are sexually obsessed (IRL) with particular body types or sexual situations (though they're pickier about the latter than they think they are, and less picky about the former than they think they are), but in fantasy, other, more extreme things titillate---things that wouldn't necessarily be titillating to encounter in life.
Not confusing the two is important. Some people maintain less distance between fantasy and reality than others. Frex, as I get older, my fantasies tend to be increasingly plausible/mundane, but as a teen, I had some pretty fucked-up out-there ideas about what would be sexually arousing IRL.
it would probably, in actuality, 999 times out of a thousand, be a terrible and awkward and bad thing. I think that's pretty obviously what's happening with the guy in the video, if it's indeed sincere, that even Prudie (HATE) responds that "Most guys would love that yuk yuk" and truly, most guys think they would.
Yeah. People want sexual things to be on their terms, not to be thrust upon them unexpectedly.
Well, I do hear all this talk about how women want to be swept off their feet, but it had better be by someone who she was hoping would sweep her off her feet.
President Grant, if you'll permit me, I think it might help to find someone -- like, one specific person -- that you trust to talk about this a little. It can be hard to process a big psychological shift like this within the boundaries of your own head. I don't disagree with most of the advice upthread, but I feel as though we're sentencing you to sorting this out on your own and I think that's a lot to ask of anyone.
I don't particularly recommend a sibling or even a best friend. I'm thinking of someone who is a friend-ish friend (like, more than an acquaintance, but not necessarily part of a your key social circle). I'd lean toward someone you know has gone through something serious of their own. A therapist might work too, depending on your personality and geography (i.e., whether there is a critical mass of therapists around so you can find a decent one). A clergyperson is also a possibility, although that's awfully idiosyncratic.
There's a lot going on here -- your relationships with your parents, a potentially seismic re-jiggering of childhood/teenage memories, a fresh angle to look at your own romantic relationships...I guess the bottom line is that if you were a RL friend of mine, I'd want you to be able to mull it over face-to-face with someone you trust.
260, 261: I'm a little lost on what you guys are saying here. Soup -- bizarre in the sense that you are surprised that relationships can turn into elaborate power struggles or bizarre that people seem to accept relationships as power struggles as the proper paradigm? Ned -- same question basically but which of those interpretations are you suggesting is a minority position? Because, frankly, I don't really understand why so many people seem to want a relationship that is about power rather than partnership. Or, rather, I suppose I do understand but still think it is bizarre and sad. I think I'm a little lost on what I'm saying, too, now that I think about it.
I wasn't talking about a relationship being a power struggle. I was just saying that if we accept that both people feel some degree of temptation to cheat, then it's hard not to feel like the one who gives in to it first is the one who put up less of a fight against the temptation.
Of course, it's not true that everyone feels an equal temptation. Or that withstanding the temptation correlates with a lack of commitment to one's SigOth.
262 posted while I was writing 265, so one more thought: I imagine that another consequence of the situation is the sense of betrayal about the original lie, the halfway "slip" of telling you as she did, and perhaps a niggling fear of what else that seemed a rock-solid given in your narrative is, well, not so solid.
I don't know if this is true in your case, but if it is I don't think it's realistic to ask yourself to just put this behind you/let it go. At the very least it deserves some scrutiny and decisionmaking about how much you care to pursue details/more information.
262: Yeah, it definitely sucks. I hope I wasn't coming off as unsympathetic before because I do sympathize. I guess I do believe that the best thing is to be able to let go and not let the past -- your parents' past -- define you. But how you actually accomplish that, I don't really know.
263: Thanks, AWB.
Now just tell me to stay away from the boys' fantasy threads, since I can't tell when they're kidding, yuk yuk. Humor failure. I gotta go to bed now.
OK, stay away from the boys' fantasy threads, since you can't tell when they're kidding.
It's like this totally changes my understanding of what it means to be a man, and whether my dad was one, in quite profound ways. It's like, all this time, I've been trying not to replicate my dad's failures, while never even knowing who he really was. In trying to avoid becoming who I've believed him to be, I may have become who he was, without even knowing it. It's that dawning realization that feels like a betrayal, more than anything else.
hey now. Your dad was a man. (!!)
also, some perspective: at least your parents are alive. some of us would kill for that.
also, some perspective: at least your parents are alive. some of us would kill for that.
Careful. That some people have suffered different grief doesn't make USG's grief any less real or important. It's often meant well, but "It could be worse!" is almost never truly comforting to someone who's going through shit.
also, some perspective: at least your parents are alive. some of us would kill for that.
Truly, you have my sympathy, but this is a bit of a non-sequitur.
Some of us would kill our own parents just to have our parents alive.
In any event:
It's like this totally changes my understanding of what it means to be a man, and whether my dad was one, in quite profound ways.
Masculinity is weird.
Mrmf makes an excellent point, of course. These problems are all my own problems, and exist entirely within my own head. I am lucky to have nothing worse than this kind of existential problem to face.
If more parents were dead, we could wish more parents were alive.
277: Which doesn't make the problem any less real or any less painful. Nor does it make your struggle with it any less than completely understandable.
I think that people sometimes tend to think of sexual intimacy as the one last pure uncorrupted sincere thing in the world, and have trouble accepting that it's just like other stuff.
Sex isn't necessarily "pure uncorrupted sincere", but it's also not just like other stuff. At all.
Llew Llaw Gyffes
Lleu Llaw Gyffes, please, bloody Saxon.
it would probably, in actuality, 999 times out of a thousand, be a terrible and awkward and bad thing
I would say 6 out of 10, max.
252: "Well, right, but that's because men in thongs look ridiculous."
Though of course they look ridiculous out of them, too.
You had sex with Tony Leung and never told us?
262: "In trying to avoid becoming who I've believed him to be, I may have become who he was, without even knowing it. It's that dawning realization that feels like a betrayal, more than anything else."
Here you have your bestselling novel. Next, film rights. Afterward, pleasant life in tropical location; therapy optional extra.
283 -> 263?
N.B.: Does not scan as well as 25 or 6 -> 4.
These problems are all my own problems, and exist entirely within my own head. I am lucky to have nothing worse than this kind of existential problem to face.
It's still a real problem. One of my friends discovered, in her mid-twenties and after the birth of her first child, that she had an older half-sister, whom her mother had given up for adoption. Unwed teen pregnancy, "never speak of this again", 35 years of guilt for her mom.
My friend did not blame her mother, once the initial shock wore off. But all these years she'd believed she was her mother's eldest child. And it was that that was hard to get past. I remember her wondering, "When I was pregnant, and she told me about the first time she was pregnant and what labor was like, I always thought she was talking about being pregnant with me, and now I don't know."
Don't knock the existential problems. They can be hard to work through, too.
Some people cheat because they are selfish, hedonistic bastards. Some people cheat because they are lost and lonely and desperate for affection. There are probably a hundred shades in between.
Cheating is such an interesting topic.
For the person cheated on, they ask what they did to deserve it. The person's friends say nothing. But, in truth, cheating is often a result of problems created by the couple, not just the cheater.
Someone else upthread mentioned that each person has the things that are unacceptable for their partner to do. I agree with NPH that it is interesting how that seems to be the One Deadly Sin. Others have alluded to the problem, but I think the problem is that taking a cheater back is shameful to the "innocent" spouse.
It isnt so much that cheating is unacceptable to the person as much as it is that other people make it unacceptable to take back the cheater.
Well, cheating makes divorce easier, depending on what state you live in.
here is a divorce fact for you.
Adultery (sex - oral, vaginal, or anal) is a bar to spousal support. (unless it would be a manifest injustice)
But, adultery does not make the payer have to pay a higher amount of spousal support.
So, the higher wage earner can cheat without tremendous financial punishment. The lower wage earner cheats at her/his peril.
?
some of you are very literal readers of my comment.
USG sounded like he was feeling alienated from his parents (& past). i was pointing out that it's just not worth it to be alienated. you never know how long you will have them alive with you - that's the human condition.
Sex isn't necessarily "pure uncorrupted sincere", but it's also not just like other stuff. At all.
See, there's the root of your problems in life. Sex is just one of the forms of fungibility. You can convert it into rat-orgasms as well as or better than you can covert any other good. Fungibility is the primary substance.
