Re: Uh Oh

1

I heard something about this. I'm pretty sure it's complete crap. All they need to do is *talk* about such a thing, and even if it never shows up, plenty of people will believe it's true.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:45 PM
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I'll give it the time of day if actual videotape surfaces and the Obama campaign acknowledges its veracity.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:49 PM
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I suspect that Bitch is correct. Keep floating different crap like this over and over again, all while McCain stays above the fray and issues condemnations of it.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:50 PM
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See the update. Fox News is now also saying it exists.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:52 PM
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If I were going to bet, I'd say a tape exists in which she says the word "Whitey". At that point, they can say anything they like about "The 'Whitey' tape", and play a five second clip of that word over and over again. And anyone who points out that she's not, in fact, saying anything particularly objectionable can be dismissed with "Are you trying to deny the existence of 'the "Whitey" tape'?"

I can't believe it'll have that much effect, but who knows.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:52 PM
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No chance it's true at all. He did, in fact, compete in a hard fought primary against a very rich guy who had bad things come out and a machine politician. As I recall, early in the general election he was being followed around so scrupulously by a Republican kid with a video camera that the guy went into the bathroom with him. Look where the information is coming from.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:52 PM
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Fits with the resignation.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:54 PM
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Well if Fox says it's true I'm convinced.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:56 PM
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No it doesn't. The resignation would have no effect on the potency of this theoretical video.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:56 PM
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I'm still waiting for the pictures of Kitty Dukakis burning the American flag that were supposed to exist in 1988, so I'll be waiting before I panic, thanks.


Posted by: DonBoy | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:57 PM
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Wait, am I supposed to be offended if a black person calls me "whitey"? Shit. Who knew.


Posted by: Alex F | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 6:58 PM
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I'm pretty sure that black Americans don't actually use the word "whitey" except in bad movies.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:00 PM
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If the Clinton campaign's bloggers are so certain of the existence of this thing, they should not limit themselves to insinuations and whispers. They should actually publicize it, to convince the rest of us to agree with them that Obama is doomed in November.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:03 PM
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Edroso addressed this several days ago.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:03 PM
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Wow. What an "extraordinary freakout." That's even more desperate than "Periodically"-gate.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:04 PM
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Larry Johnson is an ex-CIA guy who seems to be Clinton's surrogate goon. (I wonder if he got the tape from Rove). This has to tell us something about the Clinton campaign. Though of course, they're sincere in their concern that the tape will destroy Obama.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:04 PM
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12: I can't really see it getting used straight, but I could imagine it in ironic mock-quotation: Bill Cosby talking about self-reliance and making fun of someone who thinks "Whitey's keeping him down."

And if that's the sort of context, that would explain (if the tape exists at all) why it hasn't come up before -- something genuinely harmless, with a soundbite that can be snipped completely out of context to sound hostile to the out-of-touch. Not that I know, of course.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:06 PM
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I'm pretty sure that black Americans don't actually use the word "whitey" except in bad movies.

Whitey's On The Moon.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:07 PM
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I'm really getting pissed at the Clinton people. They promote a freak out about Michigan and Florida, knowing that the media will not focus on the fact that Michigan and Florida BROKE THE RULES!

Now, this crap.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:08 PM
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Wow, y'all are sanguine. I hope you're right. Given what we know and what we've seen of sermons in this church, it seems to me that a non-ironic use of "whitey" wouldn't be surprising at all. And I think it would be terrible for Obama if his wife is painted as a big 'ol racist.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:09 PM
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Given what we know and what we've seen of sermons in this church, it seems to me that a non-ironic use of "whitey" wouldn't be surprising at all.

I haven't seen anything that would make straight-up racial hostility unsurprising. The worst quote I saw out of Wright was "God damn America", and in context it wasn't disturbing at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:12 PM
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if his wife is painted as a big 'ol racist.
I agree it would be very bad if she was giving a speech in whiteface.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:12 PM
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it would be terrible for Obama if his wife is painted as a big 'ol racist.

It would. Only she's not, and she's also not stupid.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:13 PM
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This sounds like bullshit to me. No way it stays under wraps. Also, it doesn't fit with this endorsement -- you figure Murdoch of all people would know about this if it existed.

(BTW, the byline on that article is one of the greatest names ever).


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:13 PM
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I haven't seen anything that would make straight-up racial hostility unsurprising.

How about this?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:15 PM
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25: White Catholic priest guesting at the church, after all the craziness of the campaign? (A) Not attributable to the church, (B) obviously not reflective of black racial hostility to whites and (C) not meaning much of anything beyond hostility to Hilary.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:18 PM
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it seems to me that a non-ironic use of "whitey" wouldn't be surprising at all. And I think it would be terrible for Obama if his wife is painted as a big 'ol racist.

There's a difference between Michelle Obama saying it and her crazy preacher saying it.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:19 PM
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And we don't mean Whitey Ford.

So they must mean Illinois native Whitey Herzog.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:20 PM
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I am not sanguine. I wasn't sanguine about the Rev. Wright "God Damn America" quote either. And I've heard Clinton negative campaign rumors by now from two different local Democratic sources.

"President Hillary" sounds nightmarish now, considering how she'll get there if she does get there. I've been trying to accept the possibility so far.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:20 PM
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obviously not reflective of black racial hostility to whites

The audience loved it. It seems strange to say that the audience reaction to that doesn't make you think that a well-delivered slam on "whitey" would also get a great reaction. Anyway, I guess we'll find out soon enough.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:21 PM
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I don't know enough about the relevant traditions, but would it be strange for Michelle Obama to be in the pulpit?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:24 PM
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30: Oh, they would have burned Hilary in effigy if they'd had one, but so would you. The audience would have been delighted by any abuse of her, and the fact that the crazy white priest was using racial language doesn't mean that it's conventional language in that pulpit.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:28 PM
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No Quarter is fairly notorious, even among the Hillaryblogs, for frothing, rancid Obama hate. Take a look at a week's worth postings there. Not that it can't be true, but the source couldn't possibly be more poisonous. (And if it isn't true, it would speak volumes about the warped fantasies of the denizens of that site.)


Posted by: kth | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:30 PM
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Phleger's own congregation is nearly 100% black; he's not crazy and he knows his audience. Anyway, it's not like there's some way for us to resolve this between us (short of arm-wrestling) so I'm willing to wait to be proven wrong.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:31 PM
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Every minute "whitey" stays on the tape, it gets stronger.


Posted by: willard | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:31 PM
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No Quarter is fairly notorious, even among the Hillaryblogs, for frothing, rancid Obama hate

I'd never heard of it. I only know Larry Johnson as the friend-of-the-left, somewhat self-aggrandizing, intemperate former CIA agent who used to blog at TPM. And at this point, with so many blogs talking about this, it's either going to come out soon or a lot of people are going to be very embarrassed.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:32 PM
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36: So naive. With so many blogs talking about this, whether or not it comes out, its out. And if you think people are going to be embarrassed, youre nuts.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:36 PM
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38

or a lot of people are going to be very embarrassed move on to the next bit of crap.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:37 PM
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39

Yes, nobody's going to be embarrassed.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:37 PM
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40

Somebody somewhere better be embarrassed!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:38 PM
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34: Yeah, I'm whistling past the graveyard a bit, obviously, I don't know what's out there.

And I don't mean to say that the congregation would be shocked or appalled by Phleger's language, even out of the Hilary context; more that racial hostility doesn't fit with what I've read about the Trinity United message, which is more about the self-reliance,uplifting each other, if it's going to be anything scary-sounding then 'separatist' model. Outside of something specific like the Clinton campaign,which has inspired hostility in lots of people, 'railing against Whitey' doesn't fit.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:38 PM
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But you're all probably right that no one will be. But I have hope!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:38 PM
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well, are you embarrassed to pass this along without checking into the sourcing a little?


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:39 PM
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Since I find it hard to believe that such a tape exists but hasn't yet been circulated, I'm sceptical that it even exists. On the other hand, while I think Johnson is a thug, I don't think he's batshit crazy, and he seems very confident. It's possible he's being played by his GOP informants, though.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:39 PM
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I am proud to stand with all of the Hall of Fame baseball players named Whitey over the years. Some may say it is bad to be white, but we in the Lega Nord know that some things, well, maybe it's all right to be a little bit old-fashioned, and I say it's OK for the silent majority to do what little we can to resist the overwhelming anti-white forces in our society.


Posted by: Whitey McCain | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:41 PM
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46
I'll post the news Monday morning by 0900 hours.

Or as non-douchebags like to call it, "9:00", or "nine o'clock", or just "nine".


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:41 PM
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38: No; itll continue to be gossiped about, and eventually the NYT will run an op ed seriously asking about whether Michelle Obama *could* have done such a thing.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:41 PM
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What I hate is the way the Fox clip keeps repeating "BOMB" as their analogy for the tape. Those who think it exists call it a bomb. Those who think it doesn't call it a bomb. Maybe it's not a bomb that does or doesn't exist! Maybe it's a tape that does or doesn't exist! Fuckers.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:42 PM
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Since I find it hard to believe that such a tape exists but hasn't yet been circulated,

My 5, if I've guessed right, would explain that. If the tape really is harmless, with a soundbite that could be pulled out of context to sound bad, that would explain why it hasn't surfaced before -- no one noticed or was dishonest enough to pull the soundbite, and all the hysteria beforehand is necessary to make sure that no one listens to anything but the soundbite.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:42 PM
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On the other hand, while I think Johnson is a thug, I don't think he's batshit crazy, and he seems very confident.

He's confident that insinuations about Obama's inelectability still have a chance of making HRC into the nominee. I don't know why we would think his goal here is discovering the truth. He's an insider, not an outsider.

It's possible he's being played by his GOP informants, though.

The campaign is still McCain and Clinton versus Obama.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:43 PM
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Since I find it hard to believe that such a tape exists but hasn't yet been circulated

Now you're thinking like a Chicago-trained economist.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:44 PM
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I would feel better about the Johnson post if he'd said something about "tectonic plates."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:46 PM
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Count me among the skeptics. This sounds much more like something someone would make up than something that actually happened. When was the last time you heard "whitey" used non-ironically ?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:47 PM
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are you embarrassed to pass this along without checking into the sourcing a little?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:47 PM
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Lizardbreath seems to be getting it right here.

But by stating that Lizardbreath may be right, I am giving in to Larry Johnson's lust to convince the world that no matter what a good and tough and inherently likeable candidate Obama would be, he is still unelectable because of factors entirely out of his control that do not exist in an objective reality but may suddenly manifest out of nothingness.

Oh well, my opinion doesn't matter. If Larry Johnson is convinced that for unknown and ineffable reasons, Obama has a 0% chance of beating McCain, and that over the next two months he can convince 300 superdelegates to see things his way and switch their vote, then that's what he will continue to do.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:47 PM
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Holy God.

US accused of holding terror suspects on prison ships
The United States is operating "floating prisons" to house those arrested in its war on terror, according to human rights lawyers, who claim there has been an attempt to conceal the numbers and whereabouts of detainees.

Hurry up, tax rebate.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:51 PM
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0900 hours, eh? In what time zone, military precision man?


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:51 PM
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US accused of holding terror suspects on prison ships

That's horrible, obviously, but haven't we known that for years?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:52 PM
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I missed it, if it's been out for years. Prison ships? What century is this?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:54 PM
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That's horrible, obviously, but haven't we known that for years?

An always-apt rejoinder.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:55 PM
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31: Jeremiah Wright's mother was one of the first nationally-known woman preachers, so I doubt his church would be especially poorly-disposed toward women as such, if that's what you mean. Also many of the black students who go to my seminary are from Trinity (b/c they fund their members who have a call to ministry), and many of them are women.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:56 PM
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haven't we known that for years?

In all seriousness, have we? Black sites, yes. Prisons nobody admits to, yes. Ghost detainees, yes. Flying people all over the place (through countries that are and are not considered "allies"), injecting them with drugs, kidnapping them off of the streets, sending them insane, holding their children hostage (that one might actually be the most horrible)...all of those things, yes. But the floating prisons are a new one on me.

I dunno, maybe I just missed it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:56 PM
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Brief googling turns up this and I thought there were similar stories even farther back.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:56 PM
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well, are you embarrassed to pass this along without checking into the sourcing a little?

GOOD POINT.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:57 PM
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They're prison cruises. With lemon chicken!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:57 PM
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66

The USS Darkie. You got a problem with that?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:58 PM
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See the update. Fox News is now also saying it exists.

This is factually false. Republican operative Roger Stone is saying on Fox News that "if this pans out," then the tape exists. To the extent that Fox News has expressed its opinion, it has done so through Geraldo, who tells us that he doesn't believe it exists.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:58 PM
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I'm outrageously fatigued by the outrage fatigue. When the floating prison ships are ths ame prisons that contain children, who are also being tortured, THEN ogged will be outraged.

But yes, at the point where something could theoretically become an actual news story, those of us who would be most outraged have already heard rumors about it for a while, and assumed those rumors to be true. So the point at which we are outraged is not the point at which our outrage can change public opinion, which occurs later, after our outrage has turned to resignation.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 7:59 PM
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Ooh, you see that, ogged? Factually false!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:00 PM
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This is factually false. Republican operative Roger Stone is saying on Fox News

Yeah, you're right, I meant to update that.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:00 PM
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Does all this mean we can jump straight to burning shit down? I'll have matches in hand at 0900 hours.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:01 PM
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THEN ogged will be outraged

Jesus, people. I thought it was clear that the implication of Witt's comment was that this was news, and I said it was horrible, but not news.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:01 PM
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Sorry ogged. My point was that none of us are outraged by anything because we always expect the worst.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:02 PM
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Prison ships? What century is this?

Seriously. How long before they start press-ganging undocumented immigrants into a secret navy?


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:03 PM
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Somebody somewhere better be embarrassed!

I can't believe you would say this and admit to being in the audience at a taping of Springer in the same week.

I think the tape exists but that it's so easily defused by watching the five seconds before or after the one in which the word 'whitey' is spoken that they're trying to build a bunch of buzz they hope will outlast anyone's reaction to the goods. I can easily imagine a scenario in which everyone has done the delegate math and taken the temperature of the super-delegates and the last primary is happening and Some Unknown They get together and say, "OK, really, it's time to use all the ammo we've got no matter how lame. If we have to fire deck chairs out of cannons, so be it." If the goal is to create the impression of a terrible controversy by talking a lot about a terrible controversy long enough to plant it in the brains of the uninformed before the tape itself gets substantive play then Monday morning is the perfect time: countless uninformed people will be hurrying through airports and shopping malls and into and out of places that keep a TV on a news channel all the time and they'll be in earshot for a few seconds. If by Monday evening or Tuesday or sometime the story has become that there wasn't much of a story to begin with, well, everyone's tired by then and they've heard the news already today and can somebody just change the fucking channel?


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:04 PM
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75 is frighteningly plausible. Thanks a lot, McManly.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:06 PM
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Ooh, you see that, ogged? Factually false!

I was just trying to differentiate this bit of fiction from the emotionally false portrayals in other dramatic fiction.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:06 PM
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77"
Also, Roger Stone was none too convincing in his outrage either. those tears on his cheek was clearly a temporary tattoo.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:08 PM
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Wait, you mean Obama's black? Shit, we can't nominate him now!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:11 PM
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Cala, Everyone knew he was black, and they were willing to go along with that. But marrying another black person? That's kind of racist, don't you think?


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:12 PM
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76: You're welcome! If it helps, I have a very solid track record of failing to predict things. I'm like an anti-oracle. I said nobody would ever trust the cable company to provide internet access, that DSL would flop because only nerds would want fast internet anyway, that the Dreamcast would beat the Playstation, that Edwards was a shoe-in for the '08 nomination, nobody would want hybrids, cell phones would never expand beyond being toys for self-important rich people and hardcore nerds, attempts to commercialize the internet would fail because the internet would at best confuse most people - well, you get the idea.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:14 PM
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80: Ohhhhhh.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:15 PM
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Padilla was held on a prison ship for a while, right?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:18 PM
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It is perhaps not exceedingly strange that Roger Stone has a tattoo of Richard Nixon's face on his back. But surely it is a little odd that Stone advertises the existence of said tattoo on what appears to be his own site.

(can't remember how I got there, other than following Josh Marshall's instruction to google "roger stone swinger"; lots of good stuff out there)


Posted by: kth | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:20 PM
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1) I believe the tape exists and is an extended firebreather. Obama has quit the church, pre-emptively trying to create an out.

2) I would vastly prefer Obama & Michelle to be radical black nationalists than University of Chicago center-rightists. A "Burn whitey down" campaign is one I would work for.

3) At one point I said that, if I had kids, Larry Johnson is one of two people I would trust to protect my kids, the Plames being the others. Only in the fevered madness of Obamism could he be turned into a monster.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:20 PM
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"If we have to fire deck chairs out of cannons, so be it."

We've seen an incredible number of kitchen sinks thrown already.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:21 PM
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BTW, I had a very Unfogged-y Hillary/Obama moment at the gym the other day. I was watching the TVs above the aerobic machines, one of which was showing something about Hillary's latest desparate maneuverings to get the nomination, and this black guy walks up to me. He says: "See, this is why some military units don't like to have women in them." (I wasn't quite sure what he meant at that point, since another TV was showing some kind of thing with women gyrating in miniskirts, so I thought he might mean hot, scantily clad women distract you from killing people). But then he continued "She lost, by the rules, fair and square. But now she's all bitching and whining and complaining and refusing to accept the rules. Typical."

I just gave a sort of generalized answer -- "well, politicians, what do you expect". What do you think, was he being sexist?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:22 PM
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if I had kids, Larry Johnson is one of two people I would trust to protect my kids, the Plames being the others.

Don't you have any nice neighbors?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:23 PM
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Yes. But if his argument had been the hot-women-distract-you-from-your-duty argument, I would not necessarily see it as sexist. Since hot women do, in my experience, distract people from their duty.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:24 PM
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Oh, fuck you, Bob. Your stupid kids can die, if you have any. I would hire Larry Johnson to do dirty tricks in a competent way, if I could afford him and if I could figure out a way to keep him at a distance from me personally before, during, and after. He's a goddamn spook.

And I'm not saying that he wouldn't be good personal security. He can play either side, I'm sure.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:24 PM
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Who better to watch the kids than stranger ex CIA you only know from the internet?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:25 PM
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Don't feed the Bob, John.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:25 PM
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87: Yeah, he was. On the other hand, people will say all sorts of things when provoked that they wouldn't say otherwise, and the Clinton campaign's been provoking. I'd give him another shot before condemning him as unredeemable. (Also, do you know this guy? No one starts political conversations with me out of the blue at the gym.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:26 PM
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I like Bob half the time, Stras, same as you.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:27 PM
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85.2: So wait, yesterday you were complaining that the Obama campaign "is at its core a revenge, ressentiment hateful campaign", and today you'd totally work for a "burn whitey down" campaign?

Seriously, Bob.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:27 PM
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90 gets it right.

If I had to choose two people to protect my kids, one of them would probably be Kimbo Slice. That James Thompson guy's disingenuous and selfish attacks last night were sickening to watch.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:27 PM
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89: Luckily, the sets of "people" and of "those capable of being distracted by hot men" are disjoint.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:27 PM
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Stone is a professional liar and ratfucker, which makes the whole project of doing an extended interview-based New Yorker profileof him sort of quixotic. He denies terrible things that he almost certainly did and takes credit for terrible things he probably didn't have a hand in.


Posted by: ixnaythemetier | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:28 PM
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99

97: Sorry, I misedited the comment. I thought "in my experience" would indicate that the "people" referred exclusively to me. But that not how English language work good.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:28 PM
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What do you think, was he being sexist?

How could you interpret that as not sexist?

My gym is overrun with old German guys. In reaction to a CNBC anchor a few weeks ago, one of them said to me, "Pretty girl, but can you imagine having to listen to that voice all day?"

Sexist!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:29 PM
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I really don't understand Obama or his relationship with this ocassionally radical church or some of the ex-radicals he has associated with. While simultaneously hanging out with the UoC libertarian freaks. Like all Presidents, he is complex and hidden beyond understanding. Was he playing with the radicals? What or which is he faking? Fuck if I know.

To think Larry Johnson would ever accept the possibility McCain to be elected President is utter complete madness. I must presume he believes Obama is a certain loser. I don't know if he is right. I would guess the Obama supporters don't give a damn if Obama loses and we get President McCain. They can just blame & hate the Clintons for like decades.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:29 PM
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No one starts political conversations with me out of the blue at the gym.

I remember a guy on an exercise bike showing me a news story about Joyceln Elders, back in the day, and making some comment about what a crazy and terrible person she was. To which I replied, "actually, I quite like her."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:30 PM
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93: My last question -- was he being sexist -- was sort of ironic. Ummm, yes.

I didn't know the guy, I think it was sort of a man-to-man venting thing because Hillary had presumably strained him to his last nerve. From how he started the convo, I would guess he had some kind of bad experience with a female officer or co-worker in the military. It was late at night, the gym wasn't too crowded, and I was sort of standing around between sets. He broke it off when I didn't seem too enthusiastic. Ironic that he found me, when he could have approached one of the numerous other Unfogged-ites happier to dump on Hillary!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:30 PM
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If I had to choose two people to protect my kids, one of them would probably be Kimbo Slice.

Yeah, he's got experience. His wiki page says he has six kids.

Bonus: The third son is named "Kevlar".


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:31 PM
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99: I'm just sniping. No hard feelings.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:31 PM
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In other cutting-edge late-breaking blog news, I hear that Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has secretly been dead for well over a year.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:31 PM
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95:Dammit b, it is about the targets. The Obama supporters hate the Clintons more than they hate the Republicans.

This is the kind of thing that gave us Nixon.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:32 PM
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107: I support Obama. I think it's pretty clear that I don't, in fact, hate the Clintons.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:33 PM
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I seem to have messed something up with the link in 98. This is the profile to which I was referring.


Posted by: ixnaythemetier | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:35 PM
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If you want to further feed your paranoia, Bob, I encourage you to follow the link I posted in 24.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:35 PM
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old German guys ... "Pretty girl, but can you imagine having to listen to that voice all day?"

So you said, "I dunno, I've seen the newsreel footage of Nuremburg you guys cheered some pretty screechy people."


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:35 PM
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Old German Jewish guys.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:36 PM
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88:No neighbours that are seals or spooks. You know, get identity papers, find refuge in Costa Rica, slit some throats.

When I said protect my kids, I meant from any possible threats. Whatever it took. If they were willing to take the responsibility, they would be capable of handling it.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:37 PM
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Larry Johnson is an ex-CIA guy who seems to be Clinton's surrogate goon.

Totally. And kind of crazy. Please, please spare me.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:37 PM
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So what, you don't have the balls to say that to an old German Jewish guy?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:37 PM
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So over half of all Democrats who voted in the primaries hate the Clintons more than they hate the Republicans? I find that surprising.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:40 PM
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Fuck, fuck, fuck you Bob. If I have to listen to hysterical morons, I'll listen to Obama hysterical morons. I thought you knew better.

Beggars can't be choosers, America is not me.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:40 PM
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114: This is not the way Larry Johnson was treated and viewed over the several years he was defending the Plames over at TPM. The left blogosphere loved him.

He hasn't changed. The difference is Obama.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:40 PM
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Can I ban McManus yet? Some of you seem not to get tired of this shit.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:41 PM
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what is the point of saying "X supporters are more evil than Y supporters"? let x and y equal who everybody fucking knows they equal. I mean c'mon people--could there be, at this moment, a dumber thing to say??


Posted by: lurker | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:42 PM
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So ... all yer gyms have TVs blaring showing in them as a matter of course? Mine doesn't -- it's an extension of a physical therapy place. So I hadn't thought about the TVs.

That's off-topic, though.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:42 PM
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He's become the worst of the Clinton goons, and Clinton has always been problematic.

On the beggars can't be choosers principle, I played the Plame game while it was happening, but I repeatedly expressed my bemusement at being expected to help protect sweet, helpless CIA agents from mean people.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:43 PM
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Fuck, fuck, fuck you Bob gently down the stream....


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:43 PM
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So, this is total bullshit, and ogged should be ashamed for posting it at this point.

Pwned, I guess, by 1. Probably over and over again, but hey, didn't read the thread.

How's Bob?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:44 PM
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Can I ban McManus yet?

Please. He's boring me to tears.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:44 PM
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I thought it was some sort of holy fool religious obligation, personally.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:45 PM
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I actually haven't thought about LJ for a long time, but then I noticed hilzoy referring to his evil madness so I searched out No Quarter.

It's like Krugman. If you don't support Obama, you're crazy or something. These people haven't changed. It is hilzoy and the neo-Krugman haters who have changed.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:45 PM
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Bob is really great a bunch of the time. But not on this topic. A vote against banning.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:45 PM
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I can't guess whether the tape is real or not. I can see someone of certain sympathies having sat on it until now. I also don't know one way or the other: people say all kinds of stuff in heated moments, and it can be 15 years old for all we know.

If it is real, and she surely knows the answer to that, Ms. O ought to be ought on the airwaves in advance with a good story.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:45 PM
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Aw, 119 makes me sympathetic. Ogged should only be slightly ashamed.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:45 PM
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Bob presumably thinks that those of us who endorsed that Michael Scheuer guy's criticism of the Bush adminstration's obvious full-of-shitness are hypocritical for not going on to support Scheuer's desire to take the gloves off and have a nonideological and non-Christianity-based war against Islam.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:46 PM
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127: there are lots of people who don't support Obama who aren't crazy! Then there's you.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:46 PM
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94: The problem with arguing with Bob, John, is that he changes his stated beliefs, goals, and premises every time you get into a new argument. Is Obama bad because he's a centrist wimp, or because he's a secret black militant who's out for revenge on whitey? Bob's claimed both. Is Clinton preferable to Obama because Obama will gut Social Security and destroy the welfare state, or because Clinton will destroy the welfare state, thus Heightening The Contradictions and hastening the revolution? Again, Bob has claimed both. There's no consistency or internal logic to Bob's anti-Obama screeds, just a throw everything at the wall and see what sticks mentality. And like any troll, all he's looking for is a response. Ignore him and he'll eventually go away.

You and I, on the other hand, tend to fight largely because we have longstanding but consistent disagreements about tactics and strategy. This means that we often tend to rehash many of the same arguments over and over again; it does mean, however, that we both have some idea where the other is coming from. I have no idea, after reading dozens upon dozens of McManus comments, if there's anything going on in Bob's head at all besides a desire to piss random strangers off.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:47 PM
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Bob is really great a bunch of the time. But not on this topic.

but it seems that this is the only topic on which his comments are coherent and not littered with non sequiturs and name-dropping references to which authors he is reading.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:48 PM
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If you ban Bob, I may boycott Unfogged. If you ban him without having banned Shearer, I definitely will.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:48 PM
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McManus has already admitted that he comments as performance art. And yet people keep responding to him as if he's sincere.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:49 PM
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136 -- He's that good an artist. Brings you right into the show, like blue man group.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:50 PM
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I may boycott Unfogged

Big words from someone who's only been commenting here for a few weeks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:50 PM
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119: Is there a way to ban him from only politics threads? Also, 134 is pretty true.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:50 PM
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I am not bored by McManus, and anyway, I like him. Another vote against the ban.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:51 PM
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Banning Bob would be pretty shitty, given the sheer volume of conservotrolls this place has had in the past.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:52 PM
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If you ban him without having banned Shearer, I definitely will.

This is also tempting. Consider the motion seconded.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:52 PM
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Scheuer was always questionable. He is just apocalyptic.

Look I have a greater loyalty to Krugman and Larry Johnson than to this new stranger with the vague uplifting message. I think, I know that Krug & LJ are good people. The attacks on them, the vicious dismissal of proven courageous liberals is one of the important data points. Excuse the fuck out of me.

I'll go. Anybody preferring Krugman and LJ to Obama must be stark raving mad. I understand.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:53 PM
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141, if it's not careful, could be used as a winningly contrarian reason to ban Bob.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:53 PM
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Bob, I think Paul Krugman would make a better president than Obama, but a worse candidate.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:53 PM
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: This is not the way Larry Johnson was treated and viewed over the several years he was defending the Plames over at TPM.

As I recall, he got a little crazy at the end of that, too.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:54 PM
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Bannng mcmanus would be un-American!

OK, I'm joking. But come on -- we've banned abc123 (??), I think we drove Yamamoto away without having to ban, there was that Peter guy recently and I stopped reading so I don't know what happened with him...only a tiny handful of people have ever been banned from this site, and I don't think bob should be one of them.

Unless it's going to be like when you banned B and then welcomed her back and it was All Okay.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:54 PM
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Padilla was held on a prison ship for a while, right?

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes - and for at least a year - and that he was held on a ship rather than a land territory because of the Bush administration's "interpretation" of the laws governing where citizens could and could not be held without trial.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:55 PM
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133:Well, shit, stras that is obviously because Obama is a cipher. WTF is his relationship to this church that Ophrah had to quit? Who is this guy?

OTOH, I know who Krugman & LJ are.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:56 PM
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The attacks on them,

I don't think anyone here has attacked Krugman. I love the guy. He's never had a reputation as a temperate critic, and if you want him, you just have to accept his shots when he's on the other side.

Johnson's in a completely different category.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:57 PM
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I don't really think bob should be banned. Just ignored.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:57 PM
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133:Well, shit, stras that is obviously because Obama is a cipher. WTF is his relationship to this church that Ophrah had to quit? Who is this guy?

Literally, this makes no sense. Performancea-art-wise, it has transcended the yam-up-the-cooter and the shot-myself-in-the-arm and marched grimly on to the covered-in-dung-and-singing-showtunes kind of realm.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:57 PM
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abc123

Correct. Also Walter Sobchak, and Al, and the Modesto Kid. I don't know who Yamamoto and Peter are.

Hey, if y'all want McManus, you got him.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:58 PM
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OTOH, I know who Krugman & LJ are.

And I'm sure that scares the living shit out of them.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:58 PM
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Oh, and Matt Weiner, of course.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:59 PM
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it seems that this is the only topic on which his comments are coherent and not littered with non sequiturs and name-dropping references to which authors he is reading.

Bob seems genuinely knowledgeable about the history of radical socialism, and often makes good points about it. Mentioning his sources is a feature, not a bug.

In a week or so, Hillary will be out of the race, and Obama will start the long and inevitable process of letting the left down. Perhaps less than Hillary would have, but you can book it that he will. Two years into (let's hope) an Obama administration you'll want Bob around. (Although I'd imagine Stras will be on the case as well).


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:59 PM
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155: did you ban him, or did he ban you?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 8:59 PM
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I blame w-lfs-n for no longer inspiring enough fear.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:00 PM
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Huh, I didn't even know Al had posted here. Glad I missed it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:01 PM
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157: Hmmmff mmf mff.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:02 PM
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I think we need a historical survey of anathematized persons on Unfogged. There is an argument to be made that many obnoxious people have been allowed basically a free hand, meaning that Ogged is not especially quick on the trigger to ban people. But if we look at the people who have been banned (or threatened in this case), we find that they tend to be to the left of the general consensus here.

This is not to say that they weren't obnoxious in their own way as well, but just that obnoxiousness as such does not appear to be enough to get one banned (viz., Shearer). Instead, following a long-established pattern on liberal blogs, the obnoxious people who get banned are the leftists -- look at the treatment of abb1 at Crooked Timber, for instance.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:03 PM
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158: I did effectively ban a guy just by telling him he was banned, without having done anything else, though.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:03 PM
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Hell, I just came online to get some Thomas Tallis anyway. Wasted an hour, and now it's time to watch Anne Boleyn lose her head..


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:03 PM
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Really? We've actually banned people in the past? I kind of thought this place repelled trolls through sheer commenter discipline.

My position on banning Bob is this: we shouldn't have to ban Bob. If we ban him, the dumb little fuck wins. The only thing that really pisses him off is when nobody responds to him, and he ends up prattling to himself like the useless old windbag he is.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:03 PM
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we find that they tend to be to the left of the general consensus here.

Oh bullshit. abc123 was crazy. The other ones I remember were on the right.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:04 PM
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Except for the premise of 161 being false, it's quite compelling.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:05 PM
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I think Paul Krugman would make a better president than Obama

Really? What's his foreign policy like? Or do we get a joint Krugman-Kristof presidency?

TMK, if I recall correctly, wasn't banned, but rather left of his own volition after a tragic case of oversharing. That really was just an unfortunate situation, not any matter of trolling.

And I really don't care what it takes, so long as bob's comments stop derailing every fucking politics comment thread into several circuits of "No, UofC is not really planning to destroy the Left through The Surrogate, Obama" and "No, it's pretty unlikely that you actually have great insights all of us have missed into the inner workings of these several dozen people none of us have ever met in real life."


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:05 PM
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SHOULD'VE PREVIEWED! I only had B in mind with 161 -- didn't realize that Walt had been banned, which is the pinnacle of blogological justice.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:05 PM
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we shouldn't have to ban Bob

This is exactly right, but someone always responds.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:05 PM
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I miss Weiner and Modesto.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:06 PM
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I'm still reading earlier comments in this thread, but I have to stop here and say: Roger Stone?! Not only is fox not reporting but airing someone talking about this, but it's Roger Stone - and you still pass it along?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:06 PM
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I'm broadly anti-banning, but I also think the only policy should be blogger's whim.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:06 PM
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(viz., Shearer)

Good fuck, Shearer. I've never seen anyone else ruin a good thread so quickly through sheer affected muleheadedness. It's like walking into a restaurant and seeing George Will taking a dump in the salad bar while informing you there are still plenty of fine items over by the bacon bits.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:07 PM
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Weiner wasn't actually banned.

That means he could come back!

Come back, Weiner!

Come back, indiscretion error!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:08 PM
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I kind of thought this place repelled trolls through sheer commenter discipline.

We managed it for a while.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:09 PM
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I kind of thought this place repelled trolls through sheer commenter discipline.

Most of them didn't have established commenting histories on the site, though.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:14 PM
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Walt was banned? Why?

I'm not sure I really believe in banning, it's not like this place is about being decorous and polite anyway. But if I ran the place I'd probably think differently.

look at the treatment of abb1 at Crooked Timber, for instance.

That was really annoying. Academics can be such tightasses. That guy Fa/rrel is particularly pompous and over-sensitive. Always find Abb1's comments lucid, clear, and brief. And usually pretty common-sensical from a left perspective.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:14 PM
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We have a sort of decorum here, PGD.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:15 PM
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Good fuck, Shearer. I've never seen anyone else ruin a good thread so quickly through sheer affected muleheadedness.

I agree, though, that sometimes the sex is enough.

What about if we banned McManus, but then also blamed somebody totally blameless, like Ari, just for fairness.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:17 PM
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Why would you ban McManus -- just 'cause he riles people up? They should, in my humble opinion, chill out.

If indeed he is practicing 'performance art' (if that's what it is; he usually seems fairly sincere to me) he is at least civil. I don't think he tracks "the truth," natch, but extreme perspectives are what the web is about...


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:18 PM
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Meh, Bob's stuff about the primaries has been pretty nuts (what I've read of it), but I'll admit that I'm actually less bothered by that (which is predictable) than by the reactions people have to it, e.g. Stras saying

If we ban him, the dumb little fuck wins. The only thing that really pisses him off is when nobody responds to him, and he ends up prattling to himself like the useless old windbag he is,

which is just stupid and unnecessary.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:18 PM
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168, 177: Zippy, you weren't referring to Walt Someguy, were you? I'm sure he hasn't been banned, or I missed it and am miffed if that was the case.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:18 PM
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Really? We've actually banned people in the past? I kind of thought this place repelled trolls through sheer commenter discipline.

Yeah, really.

Meanwhile, was The Modesto Kid, under his other name, the only person to ban himself?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:18 PM
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I must have missed the abb1 thing since I rarely read CT comments anymore.

There was that guy who took the Charlie 2.0 pseudonym (after being told there was already a guy with that name minus the 2.0 who commented) who had to be asked to leave. And that guy who worried that people remembered and disliked him all the way back at usenet.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:19 PM
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Since "Peter" was said to be recent, I'm guessing our friend "Petey" is meant; not banned, but driven off I hope.

"Yamamoto" was a persona claiming to be a conservative, middle-aged female biologist. While you were otherwise-occupied in the Spring of '06. Once again, I don't think actually banned but certainly driven off.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:20 PM
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180, otoh, is silly. Civility isn't the end all and be all. And he isn't, actually, civil. At all.

I vote we ban discussions of who should be banned.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:20 PM
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I actually think banning is underused in blogs. People don't realize that the First Amendment was meant to control the behavior of the federal government rather than private citizens.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:20 PM
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First they came after the bobs, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a nutcase troll.

Then they came after the Shearers, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a hyper-literal provocateur.

Then they came after the baas, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a McCain apologist.

Then they came for me, but by that time, no one was left to speak up.


In all seriousness, I like reading bob, and although I am an easy mark for trolls, for some reason I am impervious to his trollish power. Also, I find him not without redeeming social value. So I'm another anti-banning voter.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:20 PM
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What bothers me here is that nobody seems to realize that banning people is (a) fun and (b) rewarding.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:21 PM
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Then they came after the baas

They like me, they really like me!


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:21 PM
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he is at least civil.

There was the thread where he claimed that FL was going to report him to the authorities. On the other hand, if that didn't get bob banned, election stuff probably shouldn't either.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:22 PM
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I was not referring to Walt Someguy, but rather to Walter Sobchak, mentioned in 153. I cannot fully express how much I hated that motherfucker.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:22 PM
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he is at least civil

Not always.

And, performance art.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:22 PM
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189: Not here it isn't. Here it turns into a week at least of threads about whether or not so-and-so should have been banned.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:22 PM
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I didn't think Crooked Timber ever banned any "regular" commenters. Evidence for this being that the 100% disingenuous troll Brett Bellmore has not been banned. If I had to pick a couple people who are likely to be actually getting paid to distract and confuse people online in order to prevent any sort of consensus from ever getting reached, he'd be first on the list. No matter what the issue is, he always appears with some sort of inflammatory exception to the rule, and phrases it in such a way that whatever he's talking about becomes the thing being debated.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:23 PM
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Zippy feels me. I think we should ban him!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:23 PM
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Maybe we can talk about how white people don't like banning, whether that's sexist, racist, or both, and how non-white people can also ban, and wouldn't this be easier if Jessica Biels' ass were swimming?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:24 PM
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We have a sort of decorum here, PGD.

Quite right, very true. At its best, Unfogged decorum is about wit -- the wittier you are, the more you get away with. As it should be. It gives someone like Sifu superpowers, but he earns them.

The bad side is the occasional overemphasis on group ideological consensus. I value trolls just for puncturing that. It's not like people can't be pretty damn heavyhanded or humorless so long as they're going with the consensus.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:24 PM
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194: only because of boring people like you. Banned!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:24 PM
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"Yamamoto" was a persona claiming to be a conservative, middle-aged female biologist

I don't think Yamamoto claimed to be conservative. And I continue to find that whole episode puzzling, but not worth rehashing.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:25 PM
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It gives someone like Sifu superpowers

My eyebeams ban you in the butthole!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:25 PM
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187: A little bit of randomness can shake things up, but it works better with a much larger, less personal community, where no one really has much shot at getting banned. Banning for political reasons or civility reasons would be difficult to do here, by and large, since the level of discourse is pretty damn high and I love that this place's first assumption is good faith.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:25 PM
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he claimed that FL was going to report him to the authorities

For serious?

Not always

Well, then shut my mouth. But then, you know how I am about civility...


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:25 PM
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The bad side is the occasional overemphasis on group ideological consensus. I value trolls just for puncturing that. It's not like people can't be pretty damn heavyhanded or humorless so long as they're going with the consensus.

I define "troll" as someone who says things in bad faith, who says things he doesn't actually believe, just to get other people agitated. Anyone who views their blog commenting as "performance art" fits this category.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:26 PM
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There's a split here between people who like intense political arguments and those who don't.

I actually agree with Stras and Bob half the time each, often all three of us at once, but I frequently hate both of them too. It's a mode of relating that not everyone appreciates.

I also do like having long arguments with people who actually argue. What I think of as a "troll" is someone who never says anything interesting and just repeats talking points, and who tunes his comments entirely for the purpose of either annoying people or derailing the thread or both. Bob coes close on the annoying / derailing part, but he's often very interesting and his arguments are often good.

He's also the only Clintonite here, such as he is. There are a few here less anti-Clinton than the rest of us, but no one here supports her.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:27 PM
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The downside of banning is that the banned are no longer around to be dumped on. Where's the fun in that?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:27 PM
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202: Maybe someone needs to start an Unfogged self-congratulatory thread. We haven't had one in a while, and I was starting to forget what a uniquely great online community this is.

You people are like family to me, which is why I'm so abusive.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:27 PM
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For serious?

Yeah, I was trying to find that.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:27 PM
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He's also the only Clintonite here

Along with Mary Catherine.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:29 PM
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What was the problem with Sobchak? I just Googled him up and didn't find anything awful.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:30 PM
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Like Puerto Ricans, Canadians don't count.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:30 PM
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210: For one, he was misleadingly non-awful on the surface. That's what tipped me off initially.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:31 PM
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Are we seriously entertaining the idea that bob would be banned because of his support for Clinton?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:31 PM
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And that guy who worried that people remembered and disliked him all the way back at usenet.

Was that guy banned, or did he just realize that he was a tool?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:32 PM
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What was the problem with Sobchak?

I don't think he would get banned today. But maybe Zippy can refresh your memory.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:32 PM
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You people are like family to me, which is why I moved five thousand miles away.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:32 PM
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213: no. Clinton would be banned because of her support for Bob, and Bob would... wait, lost the train. I'll try to be more serious from here on out.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:33 PM
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215: probably not, but only because there aren't as many feminism conversations anymore.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:33 PM
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For one, he was misleadingly non-awful on the surface. That's what tipped me off initially.

I just plotted out a story about an adorable little kid who was never, ever bad or cranky or whiny or sulky or annoying. That's how they finally figured out he was an alien -- but by then it was too late!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:33 PM
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I remember Sobchak being someone who could leave comments on a number of topics without any problem, but who could do nothing but troll in feminism-related threads.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:34 PM
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"Walter Sobchak" was before my time, I remember seeing references to him fairly early on though. I've never seen links to what he was like, although the name, referring to John Goodman's bombastic character from The Big Lebowski, suggests a "performance art" intent. But it might have been tedious.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:36 PM
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I agree completely with 180 and 181, and kudos to B for calling Stras on some particular obnoxious insults.

OT, but I highly recommend seeing Surfwise . Hopefully a main page poster will post on it, a huge argument will ensue in the comments, and someone will be banned.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:36 PM
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It strikes me that offering Krugman a prominent post in an Obama administration would be a much better olive branch than putting HRC on the ticket. Krugman's opposition has been motivated more by the sense (mistaken, I think) that he's being sold a bill of goods than actual animus. Giving him a big portfolio would fix that and reassure people who share his concern.

Other people would think he's a sell out, but I don't think there's much that could win them over anyway. I wonder if he would be confirmable? I hope so.


Posted by: ixnaythemetier | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:36 PM
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222: opening that window caused my browser to be maximized; ergo, the film is anathema.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:38 PM
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The pseud was just a pseud, idp, and suggests no more about his intent than yours does about your tax evasiveness.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:39 PM
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Geez we can't even call people useless old gasbags? Extraneous McBlimpy is going to run all over you pantywaists.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:40 PM
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"Sifu Tweety" is the sound a useless old gasbag makes just as it is nearly finished deflating.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:41 PM
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Oddly, Walter Sobchak in the movie was a feminist, or at least the slave of his ex-wife.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:41 PM
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Bob's commentary on Obama has been unwaveringly, noxiously stupid in a way that's otherwise unlike him, whatever other eccentricities he may have (and I otherwise share Emerson's opinion of his virtues). I suspect many of those who kept arguing were trying to keep him from embarrassing himself further. That was me, at least, though I'm past caring at this point.

True, Bob's a confessed troll on the topic, which is a bit like going around a cocktail party periodically sharding in people's faces and then saying "Ha! I totally meant to do that!" when they take exception. Question is, how many months of that is the Unfoggedtariat up for? You can be spared Idiot Bob if you choose not to post about Obama, ever, going into November...


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:41 PM
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There's a split here between people who like intense political arguments and those who don't.

John, I don't know if that's the split here. I tend to like pretty intense discussions here, and I've always liked having you and stras in the conversation though there are times that I really agree and times that I really disagree with each of you. But you two always have reasons behind your statements, and frequently interesting new information. Your interpretations of the facts may be more pessimistic or otherwise differ from my own, but they'll always be recognizably rooted in the same reality.

Bob's seemed crazy lately whenever Obama comes up, and I rarely found him of any note in the past.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:42 PM
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I'm sure could whip up a custom version of the Football parser that replaces any of Bob's comments in any thread where (a) the post mentions Obama, (b) he mentions Obama (or Goolsbee, just to be sure), or (c) he quotes a comment that mentions Obama.

That seems like the most fair to everybody (me).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:44 PM
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227: phtthtttbt.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:45 PM
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You can be spared Idiot Bob if you choose not to post about Obama, ever, going into November...

A policy that might be good anyway.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:46 PM
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although the name, referring to John Goodman's bombastic character from The Big Lebowski

Oh, thank you. The entire time I've been thinking that I know that name, but surely I don't remember the commenter in question.

Look, bob's joking (being intentionally outrageous in a teasing way) a lot more often than people realize, unless he's making random remarks about what he's reading or watching, except when he gets pissed off. It's not ban-worthy, and it's actually sort of obnoxious that it's being discussed. I wouldn't want this place to be even more party-line than it is.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:46 PM
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Who are you sure could do that, Sifu? And with what would the comments be replaced?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:46 PM
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NMMT Yves Saint Laurent.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:47 PM
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Bob overdoes it, but his worry that Obama is a stealth [something or another] is a rational one, because a lot of Obama's big selling points are nebulous. "One Fat Englishman" fears that he'll be a Tony Blair, who started off being everything to everybody and then systematically shafted his left supporters.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:47 PM
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Actually I rather like football.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:47 PM
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Alternately, one could just not have any comments. There'd be bits of the baby in the bathwater, so to speak, but I'm sure we'd all wander off to harness our collective power to make lots of little Wikipedia articles or whatever that technology article of The Future said we'd do.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:48 PM
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OT

Apparently, Horace called Cleopatra a "fatale monstrum"

What we need is a character in drama who could properly be called a fatale monstrum, in such a way that Cicero might borrow the phrase for a literal androgynus, and Horace for a metaphorical one. That is, what is needed is a female character who perverts nature by committing manly deeds, preferably criminal.

"Monster" is sexist. Who knew?


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:48 PM
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And in the end -- aren't we all performance artists?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:49 PM
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he claimed that FL was going to report him to the authorities

Weak memories for such smart people. FL asked the crowd what other blogs I commented on and I asked FL why he was interested and doing such research on my eztra-Unfogged activities. He did not answer to my satisfaction. It escalated from there.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:49 PM
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And now Labs is only 5'3".


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:50 PM
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Look, bob's joking (being intentionally outrageous in a teasing way)

I like (enjoy mildly) this concept (idea or set of ideas developed to achieve a goal) quite (a good deal of) a bit (a portion) parsimon (a commenter (contributor via short written "comments") to threads (internally referencing internet discussions) on unfogged (testooned; breasticles), with a pseud (pseudonym) deriving from the word (a distinct collection of phonemes representing a concept (see above) parsimonious (most eff. desc.))


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:52 PM
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Henceforth, Sifu is commenting in Lisp.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:54 PM
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239: One could. Or one could let the comments go on willy-nilly, sans the need to micromanage them.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:54 PM
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242: you can't trust that Labs, anyhow. Man without a face, &c. I've been watching Lust In the Dust (1985). Not Divine's finest hour, but she could always tuck a whussle. Off to walk the dogs. Signs and portents, mm.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:54 PM
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#include longsig.h
{
biteme;
return Later;
}


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:55 PM
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Look, bob's joking

Like Ogged said, he's admitted to the trolling. He also has a penchant for calling people liars, which is the kind of thing that makes one want to see if he's equally brave in person.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:55 PM
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247 has a syntax error.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:56 PM
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Look, bob's joking (being intentionally outrageous in a teasing way) a lot more often than people realize

Not that I'm on board with the banning talk, but past a certain point this really just the "ha! I totally trolled you!" defense. All clowns are intentionally clowning, but that doesn't mean all of them are any good at it.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:57 PM
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In that this thread is about bob, it represents yet another victory for bob. He's good, that bob.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:58 PM
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With each passing moment, we make ourselves more his servants.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 9:59 PM
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that he'll be a Tony Blair, who started off being everything to everybody and then systematically shafted his left supporters.

That would be so awesome! And it's definitely going to happen on NAFTA.

You know the way people become emotionally attached to candidates they've supported, even when those candidates betray them? (Or so I've read...) It would be a great exercise for people to list the things that, for them, would constitute 'betrayal' by candidates before they take office. This is so obviously good mental hygiene that I'll start adopting the practice in every election. I know here in MA we had one hope from Deval Patrick: slot machines. How he failed us!


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:02 PM
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You can't spell "Barack Obama" without B-O-B.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:03 PM
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at least the slave of his ex-wife.

this situation tends to produce the most ardent advocates of Men's Rights.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:04 PM
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the things that, for them, would constitute 'betrayal' by candidates before they take office.

I can't think of anything that's in the realm of the possible.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:05 PM
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You can't spell "Barack Obama" without B-O-B.

Sure you can; it's "Hussein Osama."


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:06 PM
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251: I don't care I don't care I don't care. This is ridiculous. I just don't become overly exercised by bob's exertions myself. No defense of him is needed, therefore. Can't you just laugh, chuckle, even?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:07 PM
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All clowns are intentionally clowning, but that doesn't mean all of them are any good at it.

Bob is a fantastic troll. I would say that he's one of the best I've seen, but I think he may just have found an audience uniquely suited to his skills.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:07 PM
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247 captures the very spirit that makes me want Bob around.

he'll be a Tony Blair

Obama's Blair-ish tendencies are already evident enough for those who care to look. It's sort of inevitable in American politics. But Blair got it from Bill Clinton.

Just as I defended Clinton against my left-wing friends in the 90s, I anticipate doing the same with Obama soon enough.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:09 PM
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You can be spared Idiot Bob if you choose not to post about Obama, ever, going into November..

Look, of and when Obama gets the nomination there will be no further point in criticizing him for at least a year. Unless he loses the election, which is definitely not something I wish for.

Like Clinton, like Bush once Obama is playing for the general, or has the power in hand, he will do what he will and what he can, subject only to contingency and other competitive power centers we groundlings have no influence over. I have watched such attempts at petition, from gays in the military to taxes, war, torture, bankruptcy and once elected they don't listen to or need us, and they very well know it. It ain't much, but getting public committments while they need us is the best we can do.

Which is mostly my purpose, not to get Clinton the nomination or McCain the Presidency. Once Obama gets the nomination or is elected it all becomes futile and I will become fatalistic.

I went and played chess after Bush got inaugurated.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:12 PM
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Can't you just laugh, chuckle, even?

Will increasing indifference fit the bill? 'Cause I'm there.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:12 PM
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I went and played chess after Bush got inaugurated.

Who won?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:13 PM
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I think he may just have found an audience uniquely suited to his skills

Very true. This is a damn generous place if there's a history as a commenter. That's why people keep responding to bob on this topic despite a long history of near derangement on it by this point and a number still support him based on his comments in other threads and history with unfogged.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:13 PM
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261 has it all correct, though it leaves one element unexplored:

Just as I defended Clinton against my left-wing friends in the 90s, I anticipate doing the same with Obama soon enough.

Would you defend Blair in the same manner ? I'd argue that there's a real discontinuity between Blair, on the one hand, and the historical Bill Clinton and the Obama we both expect on the other hand.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:13 PM
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It would be a great exercise for people to list the things that, for them, would constitute 'betrayal' by candidates before they take office.

1. Not setting up a full criminal investigation of the Bush white house


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:14 PM
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Which is mostly my purpose, not to get Clinton the nomination or McCain the Presidency.

Bullshit.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:16 PM
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hey - when did Puerto Rico become part of Appalachia?


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:17 PM
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"Move left for the primaries and right for the general" has been the practice in my lifetime. This is as progressive as Obama is gonna show. Your Our votes will be assumed after August and he will be working to get the Andy Sullivans and John Coles. I suspect any ambiguity so far has been to leave himself room to the right.

I won't like it but it won't matter and I'll know it.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:18 PM
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264:1800-1900 in 30 0 Fisher


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:20 PM
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I'd argue that there's a real discontinuity between Blair, on the one hand, and the historical Bill Clinton and the Obama we both expect on the other hand.

I realized after I posted that I simply didn't know enough about Blair's record in Britain to make this comparison. For example, the Iraq participation was unconscionable and he may have done some fashionable but pernicious neo-liberal stuff that really wasn't necessitated by British politics. But with Clinton and Obama, I think they were / will be pretty determined by the limits of the possible in American politics during their Presidencies.

However, over the next four years the limits of the possible are going to be well to the left of where they were in the 90s. There's a consensus Democratic policy agenda shared by all the primary candidates which was designed to build on that. It will be interesting to see whether Obama just tries to execute on a centrist version of that agenda, or spends political capital to push things to the left. My bet would be the former, and I'm not sure I would disagree with that choice either.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:21 PM
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"Move left for the primaries and right for the general" has been the practice in my lifetime.

ya know, you can complain about it or you can do something about it.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:21 PM
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1. Not setting up a full criminal investigation of the Bush white house

Get ready to be betrayed, buddy.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:22 PM
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well, you probably can't really do anything about it. not sure why i wrote that. it's past my bedtime.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:23 PM
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Chapter XXXVI of Being & Time: Dasein Always Already Betrayed.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:24 PM
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Weak memories for such smart people.

Interesting opening sentence to a comment that essentially says that what was claimed to have happened happened.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:25 PM
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we can't even call people useless old gasbags

Sure we can. It's just that there's a difference between doing it with good humor, if impatient good humor, and doing it with actual malice. Plus, meh, when commenter X becomes everyone's kicking bag, it just seems crappy and heatherish.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:28 PM
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I thought Walt Someguy was the new incarnation of Walter Sobchak. If not, Someguy should be banned, either for failure to read the archives or malicious selection of a pseud too like another's.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:28 PM
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I think it is likely that a (hypothetical) president Obama will:

a) be much less anti-globalization than current rhetoric suggests
b) be less decisive about withdrawal in Iraq than current rhetoric suggests
c) get some form of universal health care through in term one


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:28 PM
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there's a difference between doing it with good humor, if impatient good humor, and doing it with actual malice

So, so, right.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:30 PM
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Okay, when baa starts agreeing with me it's the apocalypse. Everyone take cover.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:30 PM
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I like your style, L.

So, still coming out to the west coast this summer?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:31 PM
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It's hard to make a list like the one you propose, baa, because so much depends on congressional opposition and the mood of the country. I'll be very disappointed if he can't pass health care, but won't know until the time comes whether he's betrayed us or was dealt an impossible hand. But if he doesn't even try to change some things, like detainee policy, I'll be displeased.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:32 PM
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271: fascist goddamn community organizer if there ever was one, that Fisher.

Seriously, Bob, you crazy bastard, I would convince you I didn't like you if I could. You really remind of of stras on climate and Emerson on classical econ (times the proverbial like-a-million): we know things are probably going to get worse, here. We do! We really really do! And... what? Shall I pass a message to senior Obama staff for you? I'll tell Plouffe that, no lie, he better not fuck up social security. Otherwise, sheesh, all this wheels within wheels stuff accomplishes very, very little.

(This weekend in DC we got into an increasingly miraculous back and forth on all the spectacular things Barry would achieve with the Presidency; he'll dynamite the WWII memorial! He'll put up basketball hoops around the Washington Monument, and all our geopolitical conflicts will be solved by games of one-on-one! He'll make alll heat dry heat! He'll keep tour groups from wearing those stupid goddamned matching t-shirts! He'll send everybody who's cell phone rings at a concert straight to Hell, literal Hell!)

You're not the blunt realist talking to a universe of starry eyed optimists. You're the crazy hippie talking to a bunch of people younger than you who are being lately really tolerant; why not use your age (however non-advanced it may, in fact, be) and wisdom (however scattershot and error-ridden) to inform and educate and honestly debate us, instead of this load-the-art-gun-with-birdshot-and-shoot-the-moon wackiness? I'm sure it'd be appreciated.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:33 PM
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Fuck. I, bait. I'll hang on tight to my parenthetical, anyhow.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:33 PM
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282: You're both wrong, if that's any comfort.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:33 PM
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why don't I have posting privileges here? we could be talking about the French Open.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:34 PM
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If Obama doesn't seriously address environmental issues and global warming, I'm going to be ticked.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:34 PM
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287: Oh, fuck off, you old gasbag.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:36 PM
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287 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:37 PM
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baa starts agreeing with me it's the apocalypse

We agree rather often, I've noticed -- especially on topics that could generally be categorized as "manners." Think on that, and be dismayed.

won't know until the time comes whether he's betrayed us or was dealt an impossible hand

That's fair. But one can look at where effort was expended. Detainee policy is a great example -- and something that's in my list for either candidate. McCain has a Nixon to China angle on this that is basically invincible.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:38 PM
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You too.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:38 PM
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honestly, the only thing better than a blog that frequently posts about a niche sport which only 2% of the readers care about is a blog that frequently posts about two niche sports that almost no one care about.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:39 PM
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292: But I'm never civil. I use four-letter words and everything.

I can't believe that people still think McCain's going to be good to vets and on interrogation and stuff despite the rolling over he's been doing *since* getting the nomination all sewn up.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:40 PM
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McCain has a Nixon to China angle on this that is basically invincible.

Only Nixon's party could fuck things up to the point that only Nixon could go to China and this is somehow a good thing? We're takin' back the debate, my hometown warmonger.

293: I thought you were agreeing with baa?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:40 PM
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Tim, you're only disagreeing on the particular case. On the general point, you're with bphd and me in the comity carousel.

Also, my (sad) prediction: Lakers in 6.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:41 PM
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When I see McCain in my mind's eye, he always looks much like a chest-thumping silverback gorilla whose eyes, when not sparked with violence, are glazed over with boredom.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:41 PM
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all the spectacular things Barry would achieve with the Presidency ... He'll put up basketball hoops around the Washington Monument, and all our geopolitical conflicts will be solved by games of one-on-one!

This is confusing to me. Are you voting Marion Barry in '08. Or Rick Barry ?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:41 PM
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why don't I have posting privileges here?

I do have posting privileges here, which probably settles this question one way or another.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:42 PM
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296: 293 to 291, asshole.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:42 PM
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Of course it was me who was banned, and not that weak-ass motherfucker Sobchek. I just whipped up a custom version of the Football parser to occasionally insert comments directly into your RSS feed.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:42 PM
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297: dude now is the not the time to predict. Now is the time to root mindlessly. C's in two!

SPARTA!@##@


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:42 PM
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my sad prediction Nadal over Federer in 4. (I wish it were 5) Over Djokovic in 3.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:43 PM
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277:FL really has never explained why he was searching for personal information about me. My going ballistic may have changed his plans.

And I was, then and now, partly joking. But only partly, because my guess was that his intentions while not deeply harmful, weren't really friendly either.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:43 PM
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Sifu, I have no idea what 296 means, except that the republican party created red China. Don't I just know it


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:44 PM
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303 was utterly pwned.

301: B you seem a little on edge lately. Something getting to you? Get out in the sun and surf more!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:45 PM
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You were in DC this weekend, Sifu?

Obama will certainly do *something* on both the environment and health care, the issue is how far it will go. There are mild neo-liberaly versions of both pretty much ready to go if he chooses that. B's bar seems especially low, as the environmental stuff has massive support -- McCain has been actively pushing one of the main global warming bills.

Obama has a lot of control over whether we stay in Iraq, there is a big establishment push to stay, and I think it will all be a more close-run thing than we think. Very telling about him, though.

I'll be disappointed if:

--Obama doesn't genuinely take on the insurers and maybe even some of the providers during health care reform. He should be laying the groundwork for something similar to single-payer in the future, not just buying the uninsured into some version of the current flawed system.

--We're not out of Iraq by the end of his first term.

--He doesn't get rid of all the Bush tax cuts for those making over $200,000 per year.

--He allows the military budget to continue to grow at anything even close to its current rate. Ideally it should be cut, but it's hard to hope for that.

--He falls for austerity arguments for cutting budgets for the middle class.

--We don't reach some kind of modus vivendi with Iran.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:45 PM
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If Kevin Garnett could just kill Kobe on the court, it would align the universe for 1000 years of peace and harmony.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:46 PM
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Sifu Tweety was over in Woodley Park.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:47 PM
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300. It does indeed, probably.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:47 PM
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297: Right: I agree with the general rule, but I think that there are exceptions.

Also, my (sad) prediction: Lakers in 6.

You sound sanguine. Five.

(Actually, if Ray-Ray is back on, I can see it going seven and the Celts winning, but Lakers in six sounds about right.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:47 PM
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305: he was trying to figure out what the fuck is up with you, Bob. If he wasn't entirely friendly, it's because you're pretty far from a benign force, intelligent-debate-wise.

306: I think you... agree... with me? Color us both puzzled.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:48 PM
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Also, if he doesn't reform the civil liberties stuff, not just on detainees, but FISA and other protections against state spying.

It's a big list! This is the most important Democratic presidency since maybe Johnson.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:49 PM
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Also, my (sad) prediction: Lakers in 6.

Celtics should be grateful if they can hang in that long.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:50 PM
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315: see? There's some mindless boosterism. Gswift gets the theme, if not the team.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:52 PM
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Lakers in five could happen. I guess a) I'm not totally convinced by their D, b) they were lucky to beat the Spurs in 5 and Celtics are both better than the Spurs and have home court.

To state the obvious, the first two games are key. 1-1 sets up Lakers in 5 or 6. 2-0 non-sociopaths sets up a long, close series.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:52 PM
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No love for Modern Love's College Love and Into the Wild mashup?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:52 PM
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Something getting to you?

Nah. I have stuff I "should" be doing--making bizness cards, finishing the teacher's class gift, cleaning this mess of a house, getting my fucking CV out so that I can get a job and we can pay the mortagage on the house we're trying to buy (fingers crossed!). But basically I am in a good mood. If a little tight on cash. So nyah.

Plus I get to go see the boyfriend at the end of this week. But that stresses me out a bit, too, because I've totally become the Homemaker Who Is Afraid of Leaving Her Family Alone. My mom's coming to take care of PK on Th and Fri (b/c Mr. B. won't be back from *his* trip yet himself) and I actually briefly entertained the idea earlier that I should provide meal plans for her, or maybe even pre-cooked meals that she can cook up.

Now, admittedly the woman is not a great cook. But she did raise me, and I didn't starve, so I'm sure she can manage to feed PK for two days. Bleah.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:53 PM
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finishing the teacher's class gift

How long does it take to pour Jim Beam into a Glenlivet bottle?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:54 PM
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Oh, I always give them a bottle of nice wine, actually. But the *class* gift is all personalized shit involving pictures of all the kids, etc., and like 2/3rds of the fucking parents haven't sent me their brat's jpgs yet.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:56 PM
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318: I can't believe the editor let "nonplused" through.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:56 PM
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320 is so great.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:57 PM
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Like anyone would be fooled by that.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:58 PM
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318: wow, I liked that. I liked the woman's straightforward, almost minimalist style. I don't think there was a single strained analogy in that whole piece. She sounds like a really level-headed, cool sort of person. I hope she doesn't let that drama queen of a boyfriend fuck her up too bad. She might have to dump him if he doesn't grow up eventually.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:59 PM
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a) I'm not totally convinced by their D

Given the Celts offense, I'm not sure why that matters.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 10:59 PM
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325: you should see the text messages he sends her when drunk.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:00 PM
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Kobe's coming for another ring, and he doesn't take no for an answer!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:01 PM
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328: oh that is just so what she said.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:02 PM
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Kobe's coming for another ________, and he doesn't take no for an answer!

Let's play Mad Libs!


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:03 PM
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285:The benefit of my experience & wisdom, huh.

I think I have told ya a thousand times. Never hope, and always expect several of the myriad possible worst cases to happen at once. You'll never be disappointed, and your every minute will be filled with pleasant surprises.

Every night as the light goes out I say the child's prayer:"Now I lay me down to sleep." Every morning I wake up with an astonished smile.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:06 PM
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Every night as the light goes out I say the child's prayer:"Now I lay me down to sleep."

I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to admit this in public.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:11 PM
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Actually, the real bombshell is that Obama is a Nazi. According to some Hillary supporters as reported on HuffPo, that is.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:23 PM
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baloney that's the real bombshell! Obama wasn't going to win the Jewish vote anyway.


Posted by: hael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:27 PM
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+Mic


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 06- 1-08 11:28 PM
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So, the bottom line here is that Unfogged gazed into its own navel and found a basketball there? There are worse outcomes.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:06 AM
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Defending LJ. Fuck. You mean the guy who is the main online force for the 'McCain Democrats' movement? Who has said he'll do 'whatever it takes' to prevent an Obama victory in November. Who has screamed about Obama being some Black version of the KKK out to destroy good right thinking White Christian Americans at the behest of his commie jihadi overlords? Who will impose a communist fascist dictatorship? Who will surrender to al Qaeda by withdrawing from Iraq while bringing about a second Holocaust as his Hamas supporting advisors Robert Malley, Samantha Power, Zbig Brzezinski and Dennis Ross have long desired? No Quarter makes Red State look positively sane - it's LGM for the bitterest of the hardcore Clinton supporters. Hell, they even happily link to LGM.


Posted by: tkm | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:25 AM
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On the original post topic: ahh, there's the link.

Obama is at a real disadvantage here. All his hope 'n' change stuff begs for conservatives to attempt to debunk it. Their ploys, from Rev. Wright to "Sweetiegate," have been mostly flimsy, sometimes even admittedly so, as with Jim Geraghty's item at NRO telling readers that though he is a "skeptic" of the rumor that Michelle Obama rails against "whitey" on a videotape, people may be inclined to believe it, which justifies his repeating it.

People may indeed!

Following up:

UPDATE. Regarding the Michelle Obama tape rumor, commenter Julia asks, "Why is it, do you think, that all the angry black person dialogue these people invent for two ivy-educated lawyers with government jobs sound like Link from the Mod Squad?"

Why indeed, commenter Julia?

If only I ha'n't foresworn the larger blogosphere, with its better ability to sniff out the nonsense in this sort of thing; ogged! Don't let them play you again! I should hell-of convince Roy to give up his blog for unfogged commenting. He'd be great.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:41 AM
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318: That was a good piece.

This was hardly something to celebrate, and the dreamer in me knew it.

I think this is the sentiment that was missing from our dissection of Into The Wild.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:48 AM
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Help a poor foreigner here. What is "sharding" which you're not supposed to do in people's faces at a cocktail party about half a mile upthread?


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:50 AM
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No Quarter makes Red State look positively sane - it's LGM for the bitterest of the hardcore Clinton supporters.

Lawyers Guns and Money? Or perhaps you mean LGF.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:52 AM
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340: I bet it's dirty.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:52 AM
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342 to 341.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:53 AM
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"One Fat Englishman" fears that [Obama]e'll be a Tony Blair, who started off being everything to everybody and then systematically shafted his left supporters.

But Blair started out shafting the left in the Labour party before being everything to everybody. First he abolished clause four, then he snuggled up to middle England. Obama might be a centrist, but he hasn't done anything like this. He may disappoint on policy, to be sure, but he didn't set out to get to power by ratfucking his own party.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 1:29 AM
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341 Yes, LGF. I doubt they're into LGM


Posted by: tkm | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 1:30 AM
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But with Clinton and Obama, I think they were / will be pretty determined by the limits of the possible in American politics during their Presidencies.

Ça va sans dire. At best or at worst an Obama or Clinton presidency would be an interim presidency, for reasons to obvious to mention. The question is, what is to follow the interim? That is the most important thing the next president can influence.

Martin, Obama doesn't have to shaft his party, even if he wants to. It shafted itself quite expertly, several years ago.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 2:44 AM
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too


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 2:51 AM
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DailyKos is saying the tape actually has Michelle saying, "Why'd he cut Medicare, Why'd he put us in Iraq for no reason, Why'd he do nothing about Katrina," with Bush as the "he".


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 2:57 AM
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348. If true, that's fucking funny, because beyond the up front inanity, it also depends on the assumption that MO doesn't speak English very well.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 3:03 AM
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1. ogged, I can't believe you're falling for this fucking bullshit!!11! oh, wait, no, I can believe it.
2. to 140: no fucking shit monster is sexist. d'orrrr.
3. if you guys try to ban mcmanus I'll only give him posting powers and he will come back a thousand times stronger than you could have imagined, and turn into "bob mcmanus the whitey" and get all gandalf on y'alls asses.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 4:14 AM
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When I see McCain in my mind's eye, he always looks much like a chest-thumping silverback gorilla whose eyes, when not sparked with violence, are glazed over with boredom.

Best one sentence description of McCain ever.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 6:04 AM
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Larry Johnson is now approvingly citing William Donohue and the Catholic League, if you'd like any indication of Johnson's innate progressivism.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 6:04 AM
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I am shocked, shocked, to find that the already-infamous Whitey Tape may in fact be yet another grotesquely racist right-wing distortion in a long line of grotesquely racist right-wing distortions.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 6:57 AM
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Stras:

It doesnt really matter whether it is true, just whether it could be true.

"She may not have been caught saying this, but I could totally see her saying it."


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:03 AM
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"She may not have been caught saying this, but I could totally see her saying it."

"And why can I totally see her saying it? I don't know, she just seems so angry and full of melanin!"


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:12 AM
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The rumour of a rumour of a Michelle Obama "whitey" tape is yesterday's news. I've moved on to the Charlie Crist sex tape.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:25 AM
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As of 9:15am (Mon), Larry Johnson has an overloaded server, more rumors about five people who have seen it - but no video.


Posted by: wolfgang | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:26 AM
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You mean it's 09:15 hrs. Your credibility is shot, wolfgang.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:29 AM
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No colon, racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:32 AM
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No colon, racist girlyman.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:36 AM
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One sign of my almost-complete naturalization is that I can't see rumour without mentally mispronouncing it, as something like amour in Wayne Newton's voice.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:41 AM
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DailyKos is saying the tape actually has Michelle saying, "Why'd he cut Medicare, Why'd he put us in Iraq for no reason, Why'd he do nothing about Katrina,"

This would be hilarious. "Whitey" and "why'd he" do sound almost exactly the same, but if she actually said "w**** do nothing," I think it would be clear that she's saying "why'd he," since that's not how you'd say it in either standard or black american english. Plus, I'm sure there's context. The original rebuttal seems to come from Booman who apparently knows Larry Johnson personally.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:56 AM
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So, ogged, you crazy racist goofball, what made you think this was remotely plausible in the first place?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 7:59 AM
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I cannot believe you people are smearing Larry Johnson like this. This is Larry Johnson, people - Larry Johnson - a proven courageous liberal who fought and died and fought again for the progressive cause with Paul Krugman and the New York Knicks.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:05 AM
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"And why can I totally see her saying it? I don't know, she just seems so angry and full of melanin!"

This made me laugh.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:05 AM
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356:

"See??? I'm not gay! Watch me fondle a girl's breast! See? Would a gay man fondle a girl's breasts?!?!??!"


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:07 AM
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since that's not how you'd say it in either standard or black american english

Don't count on the voting public to be able to parse grammar in either dialect.

If you were going to try to get the smear out there, you would definitely want to build up the "whitey" intepretation with a rumour campaign, so that people would be inclined to hear it when the see the video. Hey, wait a minute...


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:07 AM
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364: Couldn't you have worked "face down in the muck" into that?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:08 AM
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This whole post and the comments made my day. Hey, ogged, how about yet another update to the original post w/ Booman's info?


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:08 AM
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So, ogged, you crazy racist goofball, what made you think this was remotely plausible in the first place?

I'm still not sure why people think it was obviously implausible. People say all sorts of shit when they think they're among their own people. Why wouldn't she say "whitey?" I can think of one time in the past year that I said "whitey," not without recognition of its strangeness, but not "ironically" either. Anyway, this is Johnson's big post:

********
I learned over the weekend why the Republicans who have seen the tape of Michelle Obama ranting about "whitey" describe it as "STUNNING." I have not seen it but I have heard from five separate sources who have spoken directly with people who have seen the tape. It features Michelle Obama and Louis Farrakhan. They are sitting on a panel at Jeremiah Wright's Church when Michelle makes her intemperate remarks. Whoops!! When that image comes out it will enter the politcal ads hall of fame. It will be right up there with the little girl plucking daisy petals in the famous 1964 ad LBJ used against Barry Goldwater.

Barack may have quit his church but his religious problems are not over. Barack Obama has a Nation of Islam problem that will receive more attention in the coming days. Before Barack came on the scene, THE MAN in his political district was Louis Farrakhan. No one could take Alice Palmer's seat without Farrakhan's blessing. No one. I do not fault Barack Obama for seeking out the blessing of Farrakhan, but the story of what was done behind the scenes to get rid of Barack's predecessor--Alice Palmer--has not been told. A knowledgeable source tells me that Tony Rezko played a direct role in this feat. And Rezko has been tight with Farrakhan.

It also should come as no surprise that Barack hired two members of the Nation of Islam to work on his staff--Jennifer Mason and Cynthia K. Miller. (And no, I am not merely recycling info initially reported by Debbie Schlussel. I have two independent Chicago sources for this info.) If Jeremiah Wright and Michael Pfleger had kept their yaps buttoned none of this would mean much. But the fact that both men have been--until scrubbed from the website in recent weeks--listed as spiritual advisors to Barack Obama and also are very close to Louis Farrakhan, forces the question about Barack's faith and beliefs.

In probing those matters we begin to understand that the Nation of Islam has been a critical component of Barack Obama's base of support. And, I am told, Louis Farrakhan has been careful to use Tony Rezko as the intermediary in his relationship with Barack. This is not guilt by association, this is guilt because of actual relationship. Farrakhan, Wright, and Pfleger are each on tape in various settings spewing the most vile racists garbage in the guise of preaching. Barack Obama, up to this point, has tried to pretend he had no idea that these men had these thoughts or said these things.

NONSENSE!! He knew and he knows. And the gig will be up when the Michelle tape hits the airwaves. One source described how this tape was acquired. Let's just say that one of the republican candidates who is no longer in the race, but had a dandy oppo research capability, uncovered this gem. If Republican poohbahs have their way the tape will remain on ice until October. But when it comes out, Barack will be permanently branded with the Nation of Islam. That's not a winning platform in November. And Barack's bundlers understand this threat. I also have learned some major financial backers are asking the Barack team about the tape and are being stonewalled. It is a wild card in the political campaign that has not yet played out.


********

That's obviously smear-y, so you don't need to convince me of that.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:08 AM
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Ogged is a tool of Little Green Footballs.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:09 AM
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"See??? I'm not gay! Watch me fondle a girl's breast! See? Would a gay man fondle a girl's breasts?!?!??!"

This was a valid defence against sodomy charges in 18th century England. What's the date in Florida?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:09 AM
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if I had kids, Larry Johnson is one of two people I would trust to protect eat my kids

Didn't the CIA ditch Johnson because he was too drug-crazed and/or mentally unbalanced even for them?

I hadn't heard about this rumor, but I wouldn't believe anything reported by Fox, Larry Johnson, or No Quarter about Obama unless I saw it with my own eyes.

(I mean, the whole thing is just ludicrous on the surface. Michelle's supposed to have gotten up there and whitey-white-whiteyed while her husband runs several campaigns oblivious to it ever surfacing? It doesn't even pass a smell test.)

What I find fascinating here is the demonstration of how much more effective it is to vilify a candidate's partner than it is to slander the candidate. This is just a reprise of what was done to Hillary Clinton herself, except that this time the vilification of Michelle Obama can appeal to racist and sexist resentments.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:10 AM
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58, 59, 62: there have been rumors & somewhat vague accusations about ships & the Diego Garcia base in the Indian ocean for years. Confirmation would be new, as would the stuff about East Africa. Is there a link to the actual Reprieve report anywhere? I don't see it on their website.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:11 AM
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Didn't the CIA ditch Johnson because he was too drug-crazed and/or mentally unbalanced even for them?

Well, it's probably not a bad thing for the babysitter to emulate the parents a little bit, so the children feel secure........


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:12 AM
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"See??? I'm not gay! Watch me fondle a girl's breast! See? Would a gay man fondle a girl's breasts?!?!??!"

If God truly loves the Democrats, he will move John McCain to pick Crist as his running mate.

I'm already overflowing with Schadenfreude over the thought of the GOP base having to hold their noses and vote for McCain in November. If there were an actual homo on the ticket, I think some of them would find an excuse to stay home on election day. Or maybe Dobson would run on the Constitution Party ticket or something.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:13 AM
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Why wouldn't she say "whitey?"

'Cause she was on camera and married to a politician with aspirations for national politics? Oh, and because she's not a moron?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:18 AM
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That logic makes all gaffes impossible, stras. Unless we just posit after the fact that anyone who committed a gaffe is actually a moron.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:23 AM
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If the video is fake or not what it it's claimed to be, we still have Clinton-surrogate Larry Johnson to think about. I'm sure Clinton has plausible deniability, but should we believe her?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:23 AM
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||

I bought a pair of Teva thong sandals yesterday. Note that I am not a Teva person, but these don't look like Tevas. I tried them on wearing socks in my regular 7.5, but now I'm wondering whether I should have bought an 8 which is the size that I wear for running shoes. I didn't think to try one on. Does anyone know how Tevas run? Or alternatively, can anyone tell me a place in public transportation accessible Boston where I could try on the 8. I won't be able to get back to the outlet where I bought them for a couple of weeks.

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:24 AM
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378: That would hardly be just a run-of-the-mill gaffe.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:27 AM
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If Republican poohbahs have their way the tape will remain on ice until October.

I remember how Bush was supposed to announce Bin Laden's capture in October '04, too. Really. This doesn't even rise to the level of original paranoid nonsense.

This weekend a friend told me that her grandfather, an ex-Mississippi Republican state legislator, said to her "Well, ****, I don't think McCain can pull this one off. I guess we're gonna have a nigger in the White House."

I asked her "Did you say 'Jesus Christ, I hope so!'"


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:27 AM
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As should be evident, Donohue isn't someone that bamboozles very easily. He sees right through Obama's smoke and mirrors routine.

Either Larry Johnson is batshit crazy, or he thinks he's writing for ignorant idiots. Donohue is a known factor, a bamboozler and a hack. It's fairly irrelevant whether he himself is easily bamboozled, though he probably is.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:28 AM
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380: Look, a Teva person just wandered by! Who does she think she is coming around here?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:30 AM
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379: Is it right to call Johnson a "Clinton surrogate?" Maybe it was covered upthread, but is he anything more than a vocal supporter (possibly one who's been on a conference call with dozens of other bloggers)?

I'm seriously asking. If he is, then he is, but I suspect that people have a tendency to elide supporter into surrogate in order to push guilt upstairs.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:32 AM
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Surrogates always have a plausible separation, so that's a difficult question. Research would probably tell us whether there have been any real connections in the past, and also whether there ever was a break.

My guess is that Johnson, the Plames, and Krugman hope for some kind of position in the new administration. No crime there, that's how politics works. The Plame family has been pretty aggressively pro-Hillary too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:47 AM
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an ex-Mississippi Republican state legislator, said to her "Well, ****, I don't think McCain can pull this one off. I guess we're gonna have a n**** in the White House."

I'm hoping that one of the benefits of Obama winning the Presidency is that it produces an uptick in mortality from heart attacks and strokes among this demographic .

Obama could facilitate the process by announcing that Michelle will be consulting with the producers of MTV's Cribs for advice on redecorating the White House, and that Busta Rhymes will be the new poet laureate.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:53 AM
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380: I don't know Tevas well enough to know whether they run big or small. But, you have one, and you have your foot there, too; is your heel hanging off the back? Then get an 8. (And how did you try on thonged footwear with a sock?)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:54 AM
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I'm going to think about this quote every day from now until November, and laugh.

"Well, ****, I don't think McCain can pull this one off. I guess we're gonna have a nigger in the White House."

Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:55 AM
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Busta Rhymes will be the new poet laureate

Actually, to coin a totally racist pun, I believe I should point out that Ludacris has been the true bête noire of the rap-hating right ever since Bill O'Reilly decided to rail against his Pepsi endorsement contract.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:59 AM
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388: It was stupid to try it on with a thin sock, but I thouhgt that it would be unsanitary to go barefoot.

My heel is not hanging out the back. But, I have long toes, and if I go all the way forward between my big toe. I come up to the edge, in the front. If I stretch, my big toe can go a millimiter or so over the side, and my other toes go past the red plastic bed onto the cork. My big toe seems to like to roll out when I go forward, but I was just noticing that this does this on my old flip flops too. (They used to separate out all the toes, but now only dividers between the big toes have survived.)


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:09 AM
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I believe I should point out that Ludacris has been the true bête noire of the rap-hating right

Of course. That's why he can he recite one of his works at the inauguration.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:10 AM
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The prob lem with 392 is that Ludacris's best work has always been his guest verses on other people's songs. He can't just go up there and do his stanzas from Chingy's "Holidae In" and Missy Elliot's "Gossip Folks" out of context.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:12 AM
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393 brings up a valid point, which is why Obama will instead just enshrine one of Ludacris's acknowledged master works by replacing "Hail to the Chief" with "Move Bitch" as the President's entrance march.

Also, I was annoyed when I realized that 390 did not in fact include a pun, but was a rare non-sexual double entendre. This came to me, as things so often do, minutes later while standing at the urinal. I get this feeling that I'd seem a lot smarter if only I kept better hydrated.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:18 AM
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As homework, everyone should rent Putney Swope. In fact, it might start showing up on mainstream cable (or maybe Sinclair Broadcast Stations).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:46 AM
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I've always been dubious of Johnson, in large part because of his constant Iran war-scare drum beating. He had his uses over the Plame thing, but stopped clocks, etc.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 9:58 AM
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MK was going by Clownaesthesiologist on this blog when he absented himself.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 10:35 AM
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395:

On a superficial level, a glass of beer is a cool, soothing beverage. But in reality, a glass of beer is pee-pee dickie.

Dr. Alvin Weasely, one of the most respected motivational researchers in the world.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 12:03 PM
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I don't usually watch cable TV, except when I'm on the road. And the big story tonight? Bill Clinton getting all excited about the Vanity Fair article. I guess they had the wrong spouse.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:31 PM
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400, whitey!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-08 8:33 PM
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