Re: Post Number Three For Debate Number One

1

John McCain's Vietnamese captors will activate his secret posthypnotic programming at the exact same moment that Barack Obama's secret madrassa instructors activate his.

They will then dance a magnificent tango.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:29 PM
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McCain will speak in sound bytes and be judged the victor.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:45 PM
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"Bytes" is right. He's a cyborg.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:46 PM
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2: Ben speaks to my fears.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:46 PM
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I think that Obama makes this about the bailout and presents a strong position, he will exercise real leadership before being elected (everyone else has failed) and will win the election.

I hope that he does this, and I also hope that he does it by supporting a plan at least as good as Dodd's, and I hope that he does this by stapling the whole derefulation collapse to McCain's forehead in exactly the kind of demagogic way that TLL wisely advises us to avoid.

Aside: This is why I like Yglesias.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:53 PM
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Anyone ever make a martini with capers instead of olives? I feel like I'm going to need to drink a lot.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:54 PM
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Lehrer's lips aren't synced with the audio. Er, rather, vice versa. Weird.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:56 PM
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hey, can I watch this online anywhere?


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:57 PM
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That McCain is a little guy.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:57 PM
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Looks fine on ABC.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:57 PM
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Kill, Barry, Kill!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:57 PM
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Obama has a 5 o'clock shadow in HD. A bad one.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:59 PM
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Looks fine on ABC.

Huh. I'm watching on PBS. I guess the price you pay for hi-def video is funky audio.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:59 PM
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So they say "oh, this is a foreign policy debate, but the financial crisis is an indispensable part to..." Did they think it was somehow unprofessional to make the first debate the economic one?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 6:59 PM
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C-span works. Well, it's extremely shaky.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:00 PM
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HD and fine audio on NBC.
I can see every strand of McCain's combover.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:00 PM
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didn't Kennedy just get OUT of the hospital?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:00 PM
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McCain sounds nervous. Of course, my wife thinks Obama sounded nervous.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:01 PM
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McCain sounds a little shaky/nervous in parts


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:01 PM
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Um . . . JSM needed to tell us that Teddy K was in the hospital? Was he just trying to set a bummer tone? And I just heard he was back home?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:02 PM
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"I'm not feeling so great tonight..." Coming right after the mention of Kennedy, this opener makes him sound very old and tired.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:02 PM
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17: Ah. See, I thought I had heard that.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:03 PM
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hey, can I watch this online anywhere?

NYT homepage, near as I can tell.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:03 PM
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There be no 'more orange than a pumpkin' Al Gore makeup.

McC might wheeze and Barry might grunt, but neither will sigh.


Posted by: Econolicious, with gravitas | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:03 PM
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Is McCain trying to throw this debate? He sounds pathetic.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:04 PM
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Are you going to vote for the plan?
Sure, sure, whatever.
That's leadership we can believe in!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:04 PM
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"A lot of us saw this train wreck coming." Pounce, Barry!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:04 PM
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And forever?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:04 PM
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Take that, Norman conquest of England! The Normandy invasion in World War II was so much better! And John McCain was there!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:05 PM
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30

So McCain supports holding the various agents of the crisis accountable, and increased regulation, etc?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:05 PM
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Pounce, Barry!"

And so he does.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:06 PM
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32

Not enough!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:06 PM
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33

By which I mean, say "then why didn't you favor a single new regulation in the past umpty years?"


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:06 PM
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34

What's with Jim? Let's you and him fight!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:07 PM
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McCain's little joke "Were you afraid I couldn't hear him?" was pretty funny.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:07 PM
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36

I like this tack Lehrer is trying to take -- say it to him!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:07 PM
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I, also, have a fundamental belief that the United States of America exists.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:07 PM
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35: I don't know, I thought it was a little Admiral Stockdale of McCain....


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:08 PM
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I'm amerignostic.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:08 PM
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Polar bears?! Doesn't he know any recent events?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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The bear paternity joke is so stale, dude.

Even his pen is old!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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Sweet, the gateway drug theory!
Oh, Barry, hit him back with the DNA of seals.
A lot old jokes...


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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Kinda flubbed that bear DNA line.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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Never lead with the bear DNA joke, John.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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45

He's going to veto every spending bill? Well, that'll take care of the deficit, I guess.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:09 PM
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Shorter McCain: No New Taxes!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:10 PM
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We need to get spending under control, so sure, sure, I support a $700 billion bailout plan.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:10 PM
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$18b versus $300b! Bam! Pow! Right in the kisser!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:10 PM
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Leherer to candidates: "Bicker, damn you!"


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:12 PM
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You guys, seriously, McCain sounds like my grandmother.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:12 PM
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Oh, fuck you, John McCain.

Am I going to have to turn off the television again? I really go apoplectic at this bullshit.

"I didn't win Miss Congeniality"? But Sarah Palin did!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:12 PM
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38: I love Adm. Stockdale! (Seriously, I love him. That story makes me sad.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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53

Was that the first real interruption of the evening?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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Obama to McCain: 'I traveled all the way to Ole Miss to call you a cracker!'

/Dave Chappelle


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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I think McCain looks sharp. I'm disappointed.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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What the hell did McC say about his pen—it's old? Dude.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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Earmark bullshit. 3% of the budget. Why didn't Obama say that?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:13 PM
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Hmm, capers too salty.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:14 PM
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Is politicalfootball watching this debate with the color inverted? McCain is the short guy on the left of the screen.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:14 PM
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I don't like capers.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:14 PM
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Ah, appealing to the forum-shopping investor swing vote!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:14 PM
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I can't stand what Leherer is doing.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:14 PM
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McCain looks extremely pasty.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:15 PM
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Oh, hit him with the "Israeli aid is an earmark according to Senator McCain."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:15 PM
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First "my friends"?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:15 PM
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Wait. Obama does too. Need to turn up saturation.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:16 PM
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67

Is it true that McCain's tax plan involves charging people for the expenses their employer pays for their health care? Wouldn't this raise taxes for a large fraction of Americans?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:16 PM
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Well, sure, standing next to Obama, pretty much any Republican is going to lose the non-pastiness competition.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:17 PM
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I think he meant deduction, not divident?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:17 PM
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Oh good, Obama is hitting this point. Looks like my 67 was slightly off, but morally in the right direction.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:17 PM
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Shorter McCain: McWheelchair?


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:18 PM
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He shoulda mentioned that the health care credit isn't going to cover a whole lot, should there be a real emergency.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:18 PM
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John McCain, I don't really give a shit about earmarks. Find another topic. What about foreign policy?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:18 PM
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62: The "Look at John when your talking to him" bit? It's heinous.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:18 PM
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Absolutely, I can't wait to prepare my taxes twice!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:18 PM
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Two tax brackets?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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Why is Obama letting this be about earmarks?

I hate Democrats.

America is morons.

I'm reregistering as a Trotskyist. SWP, fuck yeah!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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John McCain is a petulant prick.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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74: exactly. I feel like my grandpa is moderating this damn thing.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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Heh. Heh heh. Heh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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Man, McCain looks like he has to take a crap.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:19 PM
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I hope McCain keeps clamping on the flip-flop implications so Obama can tear him to pieces.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:20 PM
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Ugh!!!! Your= you're obvs. Ugh!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:21 PM
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Argh, all this bullshit talk about "freeing ourselves from Middle Eastern oil." Fuck you too, Barack Obama. Just, uh, less hard.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:21 PM
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So, Obama, you're going to have to forego some things that need to be done, but not the ones that have to be done?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:21 PM
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Was McCain's assertion about Obama's vote a lie?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:21 PM
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Obama just missed the chance to win the election in one fell swoop. When McCain was babbling about companies relocating in Ireland, Obama should have replied (in a suitably Presidential fashion): "You're an American company, and you want to relocate in a foreign country? Then good-bye. We don't need you. Don't let the door hit you on the ass. When I am President of the United States, I am not going to be bullied by the threats of CEOs to pick up their ball and go to Ireland."


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:22 PM
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The way they switched this from military policy (original topic) to the economy at the beginning was amusing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:22 PM
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85: It's a perfectly valid distinction, in keeping with usage.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:22 PM
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86- Yes, it was based on a budget resolution that assumed that Bush's tax cuts would expire as they wre written. By that logic when Bush signed his 2001 tax cuts (written to expire in 2010 so as to obscure the cost) he also signed a tax increase on everyone.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:23 PM
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Hey, elimination of ethanol subsidies!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:23 PM
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McCain is all soundbites, many of them refuted. Cut spending, cut taxes, earmarks, Obama most liberal.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:23 PM
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Defense contracts. Didn't expect that direction.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:23 PM
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I didn't know McCain was against ethanol subsidies. I don't disagree with that.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:24 PM
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That's why he got his ass kicked in Iowa.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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They've given up on Iowa and Minnesota.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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Isn't the answer to Lehrer's question, "it depends on how things develop"? I mean, how could they responsibly say now what they're going to have to change?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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I was wishing Obama would say "Me too" to the ethanol thing.

Obama's getting the first word in a whole bunch. Much more assertive. McCain sounds extremely weak. (I'm mainly listening, not watching.)


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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Well, screw Minnesota.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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Energy talk drives me insane. It's all soundbites, and it's all about "foreign oil" instead of global warming or an intelligent economic system with multiple energy sources. It's completely impossible to tell from anything that appears on TV or most of the print media that Obama's platform (though imperfect) is infinitely better on this front.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:25 PM
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Probably only because Obama was forced to be for ethanol subsidies.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:26 PM
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52 - Is it worth noting that under the McCain rules, Stockdale would have been a better president than McCain? (He was a POW for longer and, no joke, beat himself bloody so that he couldn't be used in a propaganda film about how well he was treated. I don't know how seriously philosophers take his academic work, though. He taught at VMI, yeah?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:26 PM
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Isn't the answer to Lehrer's question, "it depends on how things develop"?

That's basically what Obama said.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:26 PM
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Shit, I just lost my feeeed!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:27 PM
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How dare you bring up foreign policy in this debate, Barry Obama!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:27 PM
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Lehrer is pushing spending cuts. Softball for McCain.

Obama finally mentioned Iraq.

Offshore drilling, nuclear power. Standard talking points.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:27 PM
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I didn't like when Obama said "it may be we *can't* do it", as if America weren't capable of everything. It may be true, but bad soundbite.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:28 PM
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108

Oh, John McCain pretends to care about climate change now. Fuck you.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:28 PM
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109

Actually, the most petulant person in the room right now is Lehrer.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:28 PM
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Lehrer's not giving up.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:28 PM
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111

Lehrer, the president doesn't "rule the country", you prick.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:29 PM
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112

McCain should answer "Yes, Jim, I intend to introduce a full-fledged style of fascist rule into the country."


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:29 PM
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113

Wow, can we move on from "But will you both admit that it's the end of the (economic) world?"?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:29 PM
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These guys knows lots about legislative minutiae. It's almost like they're senators.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:29 PM
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Yeah, McCain is only the second-most-cranky old man involved in this debate.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:29 PM
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116

"Between families and their decea -- their doctors"???


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:30 PM
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102: except for ethanol, everything McCain has said is a pure talking point. His advertising is worse yet, all cut taxes cut spending.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:31 PM
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118

"Cut waste". That's a bold new idea.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:31 PM
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119

"I know spending can be controlled, because I have fought [unsuccessfully] to control it for years!"


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:31 PM
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120

McCain has a slight whistle. Sounds like the old pervert on family guy.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:31 PM
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121

He said orgy!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:31 PM
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122

"Orgy of spending"—nice.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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123

"I swear, the President hates me! I'm a Maverick, dammit!"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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Maverick!


Posted by: Willy Voet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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125

MAVERICK MAVERICK MAVERICK


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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126

congeniality again?!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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127

Followed by "hard to swallow"


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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128

"I swear, the President hates me! I'm a Maverick, dammit!"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:32 PM
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129

Opposition on torture, huh John? That had a lot of practical cash value.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:33 PM
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130

"The lesson of Vietnam is that it's morally wrong to lose wars."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:33 PM
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131

McCain: "I learned from Iraq that you should never lose."


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:33 PM
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132

I think I should be drinking more. As a general rule.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:33 PM
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67: Absolutely true that workers would have to pay taxes on the value of their health care benefits.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:34 PM
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We won the Iraq war because of McCain's new strategy. That's why Iraq is a stable democracy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:34 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:34 PM
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136

it's a good rule, essear.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:34 PM
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137

Interestingly, you can watch the debate on lemonde.fr


Posted by: Willy Voet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:35 PM
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130 and 131 really aren't even caricatures. He honestly said that the lesson is that we shouldn't have bad strategies. No shit!


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:35 PM
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I think a word cloud of this debate would have a much bigger "billion" than any historical debates.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:36 PM
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133: Know any good references on the cost of this for typical American families? Is this being widely publicized in swing states? If not, how can we make it happen?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:36 PM
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Just been kicked out from the living room by my brother for yelling at the tv like we were at a movie back in Oakland. Anything interesting happen?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:37 PM
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142

"John, you're talking like the war started in 2007". Great, great.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:38 PM
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143

Hiccupy server tonight.

McCain got the most agitated at being associated with Bush.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:39 PM
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"You were wrong." "You were wrong." "You were wrong." BAM!


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:39 PM
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"Obama doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy." Great comeback, McCain.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:39 PM
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All of McCain's smirking and shrugging and finger wiggling while O is talking is super annoying. But maybe that is just me.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:39 PM
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WTF!@@@@@@@@@@@@

"We don't want our kids coming back here."

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Posted by: Willy Voet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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148

"We don't want our kids coming back here." But... but... hundred years! Thousand years!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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149

"Let us win. Don't stab us in the back. Don't turn us into Nazis."

We are winning.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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"Listen, I have taken advantage of photo ops on patriotic holidays."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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"Find the bad guys, peace comes to Iraq." Deeeeep.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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"Obama doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy." Great comeback, McCain.
Wow, those words don't mean what you think they mean, John.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:40 PM
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153

WTF is up with the Petraeus worship among the right? It's like they get some deep satisfaction just from saying his name.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:42 PM
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McCain seems to have adopted the annoying Bush smirk wholeheartedly. I hope that bites him in the ass.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:42 PM
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Obama had nothing but the highest praise for Petraus and military leadership. Of course, politically necessary, perhaps genuine.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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156

CRUSH


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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153 - it's the MoveOn ad that made him officially their guy.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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This debate sucks.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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It's like they get some deep satisfaction just from saying his name.

Well, to be fair, it's pretty fun to say. Try it.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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OBL may have said that Iraq is the central battleground, but maybe he didn't have America's best interests at heart when he said that, you know?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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McCain says "Obama". Obama says "John". Thoughts?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:43 PM
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"Under Senator Obama's plan, they would've been out last spring...."

Is that a bad thing?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:44 PM
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"Didn't exceed mine"—yours may not have been reälistic, John.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:44 PM
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God, Obama's self-control is impressive. "That's not true. That's not true." He must be angry, but it doesn't show. Or maybe he isn't angry, and I'm projecting.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:44 PM
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I think a folksy metaphor would have been a clinching move. "He keeps talking, but all I can hear is a plumber who flooded your house twice asking for another chance."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:44 PM
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Obama: More troops in Afghanistan.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:44 PM
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I want him to say Senator Hussein Obama.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:45 PM
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159: Ooh, that is kind of nice!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:45 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:45 PM
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McCain says "Obama". Obama says "John". Thoughts?

He's trying to goad McCain into punching him?


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:45 PM
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Holy fucked up history- we funded the Taliban against the Russian, old man.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:47 PM
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Wait, McCain was talking earlier about how we shouldn't be sending so much money to foreign nations that aren't necessarily acting in our best interests, and now he's saying we have to keep sending money to Pakistan?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:47 PM
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McCain: "Never threaten an ally, just attack them secretly."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:47 PM
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you don't say that out loud


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:47 PM
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Hey, where's McCain's flag pin?


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:48 PM
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172: That was a reference to our oil spending, not foreign aid, in order to bulk up the numbers in false comparison with government spending figures.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:48 PM
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Obama had the right answer for the "funding the troops" thing. Back in 2004, Kerry should have said that Bush was against it before he was for it.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:48 PM
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McCain is accusing Obama of being too militaristic.

"Waziristan." Has The Simpsons covered Waziristan.

STRATEGY. McCain knows strategy.

Marriott hotels cannot be bombed!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:48 PM
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172: Rule number 1 of presidential campaigning: You can always have your cake and eat it too.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:48 PM
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reälistic

I hope Lehrer asks them their position on the all-important diaeresis issue.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:49 PM
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175: Obviously, McCain doesn't love America.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:49 PM
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Who the hell dressed McCain? That is a terrible tie for tv.


Posted by: Mrs. TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:49 PM
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I can't bear to listen to the debate, but I am drinking just in case. I can hardly bear to look at it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:49 PM
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What was McCain just squinting at?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:50 PM
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Obama is definitely trying to goad him.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:50 PM
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Aha! 32 to 53 is 21 thousand, not 20 thousand! McCain doesn't know anything about the army! </Russert>


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:50 PM
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Hahaha for O's line about McC's "singing songs about bombing Iran."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:50 PM
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Obama is too haughty. It's Pakistan, not Pahkistahn!

(NB tongue, cheek)


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:51 PM
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I like how casually McCain says "this business about bombing Iran and all that".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:51 PM
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189: Totally.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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He admires Reagan more than Jesus? Quite a change from the Bush debates.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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182: Yeah, it's vibrating. Don't they check this stuff? Shouldn't McC know this stuff by now?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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"Obama correctly notes that I sung about bombing Iran, but fails to note that I voted against a small troop deployment 25 years ago. ZING!"


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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McCain opposed a war back in the Reagan Era.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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And then what he says has ... nothing to do with it.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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Obama: That was a strategic mistake. Nice.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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182: Maybe they can do a post-debate mini on the Moire effect.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:52 PM
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Oh no, it's the "mention a specific American from a small town" strategy! (or is that a tactic?)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:53 PM
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Oh, please, hold up your hand and show the bracelet!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:53 PM
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He can't talk about the bracelet and not show the bracelet.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:53 PM
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Oops. "Moire" isn't a proper noun. Or adjective.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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Oh shit! It's the battle of the bracelets!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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Once their own kid is dead, moms want more dead kids. Fact.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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This little monologue is really just demagoguery, innit?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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Implying Vietnam was a dishonor was a mistake.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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Holy crap, its a bracelet-off!


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:54 PM
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140: Yeah, but I can't find them now on my not-so-smart phone. I'll try to remember to find something tomorrow. Kaiser Family Foundation may have it.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:55 PM
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McCain is entirely, "Reverence for the troops."
Obama needs to reclaim it, and make him look silly for lack of substance.


Posted by: Sam-I-am | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:55 PM
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I was going to vote for McCain because of he had a bracelet, but no I learn that Obama has a bracelet too, and I just don't know what to do!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:55 PM
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McCain is entirely, "Reverence for the troops."
Obama needs to reclaim it, and make him look silly for lack of substance.


Posted by: Sam-I-am | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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What's the main Pakistani newspaper? I want to go to their site.

Obama avoided Afghanistan photo ops. Forget that motherfucker.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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Isn't the war that he opposed Granada? If you had to pick a war over the last 30-50 years that you would allow to happen willingly, wouldn't it also be granada? Is that in any way significant?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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207: Thanks. I'll google it. I didn't hear about this until recently -- probably not paying enough attention -- but it seems like something worth spreading....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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Vietnam wasn't a dishonor?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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He's begining to get under McCain's skin. This is good.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:56 PM
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Does McCain have anything to say other than "we're gonna win"?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:57 PM
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Oh, good, I wasn't clear whether anyone wanted a second holocaust. But now we're clear.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:58 PM
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I think Obama was about to administer the killing blow, but no. He said, "Nobody is talking about defeat in Iraq." I was sure he was going to say "I am talking about victory in Afghanistan."


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:58 PM
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I think that we should have an open, well-informed debate about allowing a second holocaust. That's antiquated Old Europe thinking.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:58 PM
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Why'd McCain mention France first in a list of allies?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:58 PM
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"significant, powerful, painful ... sanctions on Iran"


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:58 PM
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Also, I want to put this one Israeli dude I know on TV for everyone to see. He's a fierce McCain supporter because he thinks McCain will attack Iran and that this would be the best. thing. ever. His obvious craziness on this issue makes the awfulness of McCain manifest. (Nice, reasonable guy otherwise, somehow.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:59 PM
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Number one paper in Pakistan, or so they say.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:59 PM
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214: It looks bad to the base to suggest it.

I'm glad to hear that McCain opposes the Holocaust.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 7:59 PM
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Uh, Iran isn't a state sponsor of terror.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:00 PM
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"Iranically"! Geddit?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:00 PM
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"Ironically," Senator Obama? I think you meant to say "Iran-ically."


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:00 PM
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I think that we should have an open, well-informed debate about allowing a second holocaust.

An excellent idea.


Posted by: David Duke | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:00 PM
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Centrifuges! Maybe they just want to separate the components in their OJ?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:01 PM
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I suppose that was a coincidence, Obama's saying "Ironically" just after the word "Iran," but it was still a fun moment.

McCain is obviously full of shit, but so far I don't see anything big such as the media would latch onto lamprey-like. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong tomorrow.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:01 PM
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Achmediniajdiasdejasidja?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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Obama is trying to match McCain in anti-Iran rhetoric.

Obama is failing to keep the initiative. Partly because of Lehrer.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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akmedinner ama akmdeinnehJADDD!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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Ackmadiddydiddyjahd.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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Maybe they just want to separate the components in their OJ?

Are you or are you not pro-pulp?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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CNNHD rules. They put up on the margins this ridiculous "Analyst Scorecard" thing for their six talking heads where they can tally points scored and points taken for the two candidates. Castellanos is tallying points all the time, but Bill Bennett seems to have forgotten all about this part of the game, not marking a point since about 10 min in.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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I think McC means Ahmadinejad?

Is there some particular danger involved in talking to people? Do they carry miasma?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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NEVER sit across a table.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:02 PM
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Is McCain is 7th grade? If you sit down at the table with them, everyone else will want to be like them?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:03 PM
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Port-port-perestroika? Your "I can pronounce Russian names" show backfired, dude.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:03 PM
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Hah oh SNAP! Kissinger'd sit across the table.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:04 PM
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God, I'm not even watching and this debate is boring the shite out of me.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:04 PM
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"It doesn't mean you invite them over to tea." Beautiful.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:04 PM
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"rogue regime". Rolls off the tongue.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:05 PM
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Dawn is apparently also a big Pakistani newspaper. Go away, I'm no good for you.

Obama seems to be using reason. I hate that in a politician. He does seem sharper than McC. Will McC's soundbites work? I have no idea at all.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:05 PM
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When Kissinger sits across the table, he really sits across the table.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:05 PM
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McCains occasional grinning while Obama speaks is really unsettling.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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McCain is smiling like he's got some killer counter for this line.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Better than Kissinger sitting astride the table, if you ask me.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Bill Bennett seems to have forgotten all about this part of the game, not marking a point since about 10 min in.

Maybe he put five large on the under.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Where's the nerf guns? I was told there would be nerf guns. :(


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Woo Spain!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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I bet sitting across the table from Spain would buy you some delicious Tapas.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Ha! Spain!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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Dr. Kissinger.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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245.2 is pretty much all you need to know about any presidiential debate, ever.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:06 PM
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McCain is smiling like he's got some killer counter for this line.

Turns out not so much.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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You lost with Korea, McCain, stop digging.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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"I will figure out who this 'Spain' is when I have a Presidential seal."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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Was he smiling in anticipation of using that bad "White House visitors list" joke that fell flat?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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Sitting down across the table from someone legitimizes anything they have said? The fuck?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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"Something Obama doesn't seem to understand". That would work better if McCain was more cogent.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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Thanks for letting us know about not filling up your schedule, John.

I wonder if McCain can substantiate his theory of legitimation.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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McCain would sit on the same side of the table. He's mavericky that way, you know.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:07 PM
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212: Not so much Granada as Grenada. McCain likely would have supported any and all invasions of Nicaragua.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:08 PM
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247 - Almost as unsettling as the constant old-man tongue flick thing he's doing.


Posted by: Mrs. TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:08 PM
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The average South Korean is 3 inches taller than the average North Korean? Fun fact!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:09 PM
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Yeah McCain really shouldn't smile. Oh, and he's getting mad: also a problem.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:09 PM
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225: Dude, you may want to check your facts/definitions/time horizons.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:09 PM
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McCain is being so sophomoric.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:09 PM
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So, they are mispronouncing Ahmadinejad's name consistently, right? I thought it was more like Ahmadi-nejad?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:10 PM
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Took a real turn for the trivial back there. Secretarial contacts! Low-level contacts! Presidential contacts!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:10 PM
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Screw the Czechs, man.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:11 PM
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I know Henry Kissinger. Henry Kissinger is my friend. You senator are no something something what huh? Poopyface!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:11 PM
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McCain would sit on the same side of the table. He's cuddly mavericky that way, you know.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:11 PM
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266: Yes. He is like that creepy lipless guy at the gates of Mordor whose head Aragorn chops off. (I am a scary dork.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:11 PM
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So, they are mispronouncing Ahmadinejad's name consistently, right? I thought it was more like Ahmadi-nejad?

The "di" can be accented even in your formulation. But I agree that should be more like "I'm a deener jacket" than "I'm a dinner jacket".


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:12 PM
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I saw three letters when McCain said that- WTF?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:13 PM
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The "G" was sort of in the nose bridge area.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:13 PM
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"I know the names of the Baltic states too!"


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:13 PM
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He is like that creepy lipless guy at the gates of Mordor whose head Aragorn chops off

A delightful image -- I have an idea of what I want to watch after the debates tonight!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:13 PM
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I can't guess how McC's weird condescending smile while Obama talks is going to play. Or is it even a weird condescending smile? Is that just what his listening face looks like?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:14 PM
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Even I'm bored at the Russian section. Obama lost a good angle of fire by saying Georgia should be in NATO, however weakly.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:14 PM
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||
Fucking Timlin.
|>


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:14 PM
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McCain's been all sorts of places!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:14 PM
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Inclusion into NATO is a natural process. Like erosion, or entropy.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:14 PM
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Yeah, Georgia in NATO is actually a terrible idea.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:15 PM
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Shit, I could have sat first row behind the dugout tonight but I assumed it would be cancelled. Also my wife is at the NKOTB concert so I have to watch the kids.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:16 PM
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Also, no acknowledgment of Georgia's portion of responsibility for the conflict. So much for nuance.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:16 PM
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I thought the first sentence of 288 was by Sifu. But then it took a turn for the surprising.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:17 PM
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288: the old kids, that is.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:17 PM
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Also my wife is at the NKOTB concert

SP's family is the awesomest.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:17 PM
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Obama just called Venezuela a rogue state? The fuck?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:17 PM
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FUCK CLEAN COAL! FUCK YOU!


Posted by: OPINIONATED ESSEAR | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:18 PM
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Blume's not a NKOTB fan?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:18 PM
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295: she's more of a New Edition kind of woman.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:18 PM
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Off-shore drilling is a bridge. To... nowhere?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:18 PM
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What happens after the "lead question segment"? Fisticuffs?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:18 PM
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298: basically, yeah.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:19 PM
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The format allows McCain to seem sharper than he is.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:19 PM
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Of course I am! Hel-LO, seventh grade! I'm in CA at the moment, though. No NKOTB concert here tonight.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:19 PM
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God, I hope so.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:20 PM
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WTF question is this?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:20 PM
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I would put the odds at 73 to one.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:20 PM
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303: stupidest question ever?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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Ha, I just asked Sifu 303.

I wish O would say we're much safer now that we take our shoes off at the airport, all snarky-like.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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Man, I hated the friggin' New Kids on the Block....


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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Do we know the candidates positions on NKOTB?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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The format American Society allows McCain to seem sharper than he is.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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Senator Joe Lieberman and I decided we needed a commission.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:21 PM
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311

I feel much safer knowing the person next to me on the plane doesn't have any large shampoo bottles in their bag.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:22 PM
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What happens after the "lead question segment"?

The gold question segment!


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:22 PM
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Nerf guns?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:23 PM
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So the 'a' in Afghanistan is pronounced differently from the one in Pakistan?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:24 PM
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And silly string.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:24 PM
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Obama has to spew all sorts of shit. Nature of the operation. What's notable is how frequently he declines to do so, and also how this motherfucker must have nerves of steel to stand next to that 73 year old abortion and stfu and look reasonable.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:24 PM
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I feel much safer knowing the person next to me on the plane doesn't have any large shampoo bottles in their bag.

The woman sitting next to me flying back from LA last week would have been better off if she'd been lugging around a few large bottles of shampoo to drink, instead of whatever the hell it was she consumed before getting on the plane.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:24 PM
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I want unproven missile defense!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:24 PM
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So the 'a' in Afghanistan is pronounced differently from the one in Pakistan?

All 5 a's in those words are pronounced slightly differently, I think. GIVE UP NOW!


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:25 PM
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Students for a Democratic Initiative!

Hey, you know where al Qaeda didn't have a base in 2001? Iraq!

McCain doesn't seem to be aware of sunk costs.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:25 PM
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If you love Patreus so much, John, why don't you marry him.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:26 PM
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311: Oh MY GOD, I can feel it tingling!


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:27 PM
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Yeah! Fuck you Mac! Veterans aren't your issue!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:27 PM
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He just compared Obama to Bush. That's fucking priceless.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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McCain just compared Obama to Bush? This is surreal.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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McCain doesn't seem to be aware of sunk costs.

Any estimate on how far down this would be on any list of "Important Things McCain is Unaware Of". I'm guessing quite far.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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McCain's bug-eyed look doesn't appeal to me, so I suppose it wins him votes. For all I know, he was coached to do that.

"Has the knowledge or the experience". Obama is much like Bush.

"Now that we've won the Iraq War, what next, Sen. McCain".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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Actually, in 8 years I could see "Why are we afraid of nail clippers and tomato sauce?" turn into a winning political issue.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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The Surge! THE SURGE!!!


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:28 PM
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I agree with Blume that OBAMA = BUSH is maybe not a winner. Talk about attacking your opponent's strengths, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:29 PM
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BTW, I worship the first comment.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:30 PM
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POW!


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:30 PM
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Honestly, I think McCain destroyed Obama. He's much better at making pithy points. (My track record in judging debate winners is horrible, though.) I do wonder how McCain's patronizing attitude is playing, though.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:30 PM
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McCain just compared Obama to Bush? This is surreal.

And yet look, here is Wolf Blitzer and the rest of the Serious Media Taking It Seriously.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:30 PM
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POW! POW!


Posted by: John McCain | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:30 PM
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Yes, we all know that Vietnam vets were badly treated, John. Maybe something of more contemporary relevance?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:31 PM
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Veterans love McCain and McCain loves veterans. Love, love, love.

END OF DEBATE!!!!!!

NEXT: PALIN V. BIDEN!!!!!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:31 PM
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Senator Obama only wanted our veterans to come part way home. He would have dropped them off in some place exotic like Hawaii.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:31 PM
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336: Red meat, if a bit roundabout.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:32 PM
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And now for the dumfuk analysis.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:32 PM
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"John McCain's strong suit"? "John McCain's expertise"? Why can news commentators not acknowledge that no, John McCain really doesn't know everything about the world?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:33 PM
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I was watching (actually listening) on c-span and now I've turned it off; no dumbfuck analysis for me, thanks!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:34 PM
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336: But it made him sad, ben.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:34 PM
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Are we done already?

I imagine McCain brazened his way along with the absurd talking points (Victory in Iraq! I am an Outsider! My Opponent is a Republican!) and Obama was so busy remaining Not The Angry Black Guy that he didn't land many punches.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:34 PM
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Off goes the TV. No need to watch the opinions percolate through empty heads, the mindmeld consensus will be in print tomorrow.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:35 PM
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Ugh, my wife wants to watch the dumbfuck analysis. LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:35 PM
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Brokaw is saying that McC made a lot of hits and O missed a lot of opportunities.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:35 PM
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Why can news commentators not acknowledge that no, John McCain really doesn't know everything about the world?

They don't wish to anger the Great and Powerful Oz.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:36 PM
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Goddamit.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:37 PM
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I pissed my brother off, but in the intermittent bits I saw, I thought, "America is more than dumb enough to fall for this."


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:37 PM
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347 and 350 tend to confirm 344.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:38 PM
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CBS's room of undecideds seemed to thing Obama won, and their most positive reaction was when Obama was berating McCain for supporting starting the Iraq war.

One of them brought up the Kennedy/Nixon comparison. If we were allowed to make analogies here, I would say thats a good analogies.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:38 PM
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PLEASE DEMS, playing "i disagree on some things but really respect you on many topics!! let's be friends!!" didn't work for John Kerry or John Edwards or Al Gore*. It makes you look weak and passionless. Quit it.

*sure he won, but the debates hurt him.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:39 PM
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What a debacle. Obama can't make a simple point:

"John McCain is promising to cut government spending by eliminating waste. It's a wonderful promise - it got Ronald Reagan elected and it got GHW Bush elected and it got Goerge W Bush elected. They all promised to cut govrnment spending by eliminating waste and abuse. And they cut government: that got us the disaster of Katrina, because FEMA was cut; in part it got us Iraq, because the eperts at the State department were cut; and in part it got us into this financial crisis, because regulations and the beaurocrats who enforce those regulations were cut. So if you think this plan worked well the last three times it was sold to you, vote for my opponent and go for a fourth try. If you think it's time for something different, for a government that works, vote for me'


Posted by: Michael H Schneider | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:39 PM
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344 is in fact excellent analysis. I knew I shouldn't have watched.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:39 PM
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Aaah! PBS is showing NPR people on camera! Don Gonyea and Scott Horsely are funny-looking dudes.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:40 PM
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"Gonyea"? I thought it was "Gagné", like all those Canadian athletes.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:40 PM
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357: trying to spell NPR the names of NPR personalities is a fool's errand. Just ask Aiyreha Khlahss.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:41 PM
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Gonyea.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:42 PM
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Yeah, but the record for funniest looking NPR dude still resides with Garrison Keillor.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:42 PM
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NPR.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:43 PM
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357: Minnesota, and they pronounce their names differently.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:43 PM
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Some McCain campaign spokesperson on CBS calls Obama "ill-informed" and "wrong". Why am I watching this shit?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:43 PM
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I was so disappointed when I first saw über-smooth Ray Suarez on television.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:44 PM
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Obama lost a good angle of fire by saying Georgia should be in NATO,

shit, he said that? I must've dozed off. This is even worse than I thought.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:44 PM
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Hey, is anybody watching NBC? My friend tells me the GOP has offered Giuliani instead of Palin for the VP debate? Anybody?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:45 PM
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Obama was so busy remaining Not The Angry Black Guy that he didn't land many punches.

Sort of, not exactly. There were several points at which Obama interjected a simple "That's not true. That's not true" (purse lips, shake head) in the middle of what McCain was saying. Good. Sometimes he was able to follow up, clarify, sometimes not. But casting doubt on McCain's veracity in the viewer's/voter's mind is smart.

Though Obama looked like he was becoming actually pissed off a few times.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:45 PM
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My friend tells me the GOP has offered Giuliani instead of Palin for the VP debate?

Huh, so, is he the new veep candidate?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:46 PM
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366- 'tis true. Rudy claims that Obama said, "We need to lose in Iraq to win in Afghanistan."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:46 PM
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FWIW, this is my first moment looking at the thread or anything online. McCain was AWFUL at the start - utter FAIL on a few "zingers," and general incompetence. From there on, it was generally even, with Obama doing fine but failing to land many punches. But I really didn't see McCain landing any either.

Obama's bit on Spain rocked, and McCain's retort was so weak as to not even exist.

Obama's biggest failure was failure to challenge frames. "John, I'll admit that the Surge succeeded if you admit that the invasion of Iraq was our greatest foreign policy failure since Vietnam." There were several others like that - where Obama has the marginally stronger position on the merits (because McCain is nuts), but his real strength is not buying into the BS*.

McCain's canned response to "Bomb bomb Iran" was impossibly lame. The main reason I can't believe that McCain "won" is that I didn't see him land a punch (a couple glancing blows, a few salient points that didn't hurt Obama, but made JSM look sensible). Obama missed a lot of chances (to my eye), but he landed a few hits, plus was solidly in control the whole time. In terms of demeanor, he was excellent.

* Not that I think he's a lefty on foreign policy or anything else, but I think that he fundamentally understands that DC CW is nuts, esp. on foreign policy.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:47 PM
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Keillor is tall, maybe 6'3". He seems so short and plump.

The White Sox and Twins both are losing. Good for the Twins, relatively. The Twins are ahead by 1/2 and have two to play, Sox three to play. The Twins win if they match the Sox wins, if the Sox win one more than the Twins there's a playoff game.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:48 PM
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Palin was not on TV with Biden. Biden is a very good spokesman if he has a time limit.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:49 PM
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Wait, what? McCain goes on about how pleased he is to have his mavericy co-maverick new running mate, and they are talking about swapping in Rudy? No way.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:50 PM
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NBC also fact-checked McCain's claim about Kennedy. He's out of the hospital, so there!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:51 PM
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Seriously, I'm usually good at guessing the spellings of things, but I am like 1 for 20 on NPR personalities.

Kai Rissdahl - not even close
Lynn Rosetto-Casper - all three of these words could be spelled many ways
Tess Vigland - so close!
Ofeibia Quist-Arcton - so close!
Michele Norris - CORRECT
Daniel Shore - geez, this was embarrassing
Saraia Sarhadi-Nelson - why even bother
Bob Mondello - CORRECT
David Bianculi - wrong
David Folkenflick - wrong
Terry Gross - CORRECT - someone so dignified couldn't be "Terri"
Ari Shapiro - CORRECT - this is the only one that I couldn't think of any alternatives for.
Don Gagné - whoa, I never would have guessed that one.
Melissa Block - CORRECT
Steve Inskeep - CORRECT
Linda Wertheimer - CORRECT
Peter Sagel - wrong
Sylvia Poggiolli - too many letters
Niwali Saikaotao - oh my god, there's an X?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:51 PM
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btw: Not a Debacle:
I saw McCain say some things that I think are provably false. Tie+media talking about the lies+ammo for next time= me cautiously satisfied.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:52 PM
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"Gonyea"? I thought it was "Gagné", like all those Canadian athletes.

This is what all sensible people think.

I shocked my MIL this evening by calling Mara Liasson worthless. Then I kicked up to Cokie, and she practically hyperventilated. Smart woman, good liberal, but it would never occur to her that NPR would put a worthless tool on the air. When I told her Cokie had favored impeachment, she said, "Oh well, I didn't know that...." I think it made an impression. I should go to Daily Howler and print out a few pages on them.

Iris spent much of the debate having us point out the various countries on her little globe - I didn't actually think she would 'get' that that's what they were talking about (she's not a super-mappy kid like I was). She also thanked us for the "special" things we do for her - like letting her stay up to watch a debate. I love this kid.

4.5 years old today.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:53 PM
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Where's the original list, Ned?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:55 PM
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377 is my favorite unfogged comment in a long time. Thanks, JRoth.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:55 PM
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377: I sometimes get the same reaction amongst my mom and her buddies by complaining about MoDo.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:56 PM
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I did hear McCain say you could "gulag something", right? Let me go gulag that up and see.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:57 PM
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Why don't you go gulag yourself up a clue, old timer.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:58 PM
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Could someone explain, precisely, what the story is with the Giuliani-rather-than-Palin-story at the veep debate? Was that a joke offered up here? Or did someone actually hear something to that effect? Please to clarify for confused ari.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:59 PM
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My relatives are passing this video around (basically "the economy is crap because Democrats force us to give loans to black people"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tZc8oH--o
Can anyone point me to a post taking it apart?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 8:59 PM
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Wow, Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper just snarked about Palin not showing up to spin the debate. Ouch.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:00 PM
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Melissa Block - CORRECT

I can never tell whether she says "I'm Melissa Block" or "I'm Elissa Block."

Cokie is evil. Whenever Diane Rehm comes on the air I have to switch off because it sounds like she is about to die of asphyxiation and I start to suffocate in sympathy.

On the other hand, there's Jamie Tarabay, whom I totally respect just for the substantive quality of her reporting alone and not, uh, never mind.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:00 PM
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Wait, I misread Sifu's question. They offered Rudy to respond to the debate after Biden did his response. I didn't hear anything about next week's debate.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:01 PM
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383: my friend said something or other about that, and I repeated the rumor here in what turned out to be a fruitless attempt to get clarification.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:01 PM
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Could someone explain, precisely, what the story is with the Giuliani-rather-than-Palin-story at the veep debate?

I believe it's that the Obama campaign sent Biden to spin, and the McCain campaign sent Giuliani. Palin's in hiding.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:01 PM
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Instead of substanceless gloom and doom over the talking heads, let's return to real gloom and doom. Is anything in this blartigle wrong at all, in any way?

Is Ian Welsh now on FDL, gone from The Agonist? I think he was the one I found the most readable and believable.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:02 PM
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387: oh, I see.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:02 PM
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Has Jamie Tarabay (I got that one right too) been played by Rachel Weisz yet?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:03 PM
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She'd better be able to do the accent properly, is all I'm saying.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:04 PM
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Korva Coleman's name kills me. Korva=Whore in Yiddish.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:06 PM
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What's a tawdry Italian Jersey girl like you knowing from Yiddish?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:07 PM
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384: Via Yglesias, this is the rebuttal.



Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:07 PM
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I think Henry Kissinger* should be allowed to anoint the next president. Think of the cost savings in campaign costs alone!

*My #1 Obama response hatred part of the debate. #2, Venezuela as rogue state. #3, not working "google" into the answer after McCain referred to it as "gulag". Ridicule the old fucker!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:07 PM
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395: I'm from Deal, baby! I know Ladino, too.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:07 PM
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Ladino! That is impressive.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:09 PM
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379: You're welcome, ari. And thank you.

Fuckin' Mets.

Fuckin' Phils.

Fuckin' Cubs.

Fuckin' Bucs.

The last one is purely petulant. We just gave up the first hit of the game in the 6th, and it was a HR to tie. Dammit.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:09 PM
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400: Yay, Cubs! Whoo!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:12 PM
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Biden's attack was really pithy. I think whoring yourself out to the networks every weekend the McCain and Biden have done for years really helps in the TV debate setting.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:14 PM
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I make the debate as a draw. McCain wasn't nearly as crazy-sounding as I'd hoped.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:16 PM
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And, uh, please assure me that Obama wasn't promising to tangle with Russia if they don't get out of Abkhasia.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:18 PM
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I thought it was a draw, basically. Obama wins on content, but as Walt says somewhere upthread, McCain knows how to do the pithy counterpoint. I found Obama more aggressive than I had expected to find him, and that's all to the good, but McCain's a pitbull, let's face it.

McCain's no Bush, that's for sure. We're used to running the supersmart, well-informed and articulate guy against the village idiot that everyone wants to have a beer with, and then bemoaning the stupidity of the American public in not recognizing the patently obvious superiority of our own candidate. We're still running the supersmart, well-informed and articulate guy, yeah, but McCain throws that game off somewhat, is what I believe. Old man is more than smart enough to hold his own in his own way, and crazy like a fox, and he knows how to throw more than a few punches.

Foreign policy is not Obama's strong suit. If he performs as well in the next debate (where reality-based content is on his side), he'll be doing very well indeed.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:21 PM
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Agreed: a draw. Someone on NPR just explained that both NPR and the Washington Post had an "army of fact-checkers" on duty, that both candidates were aware of this, that therefore they must both have been very careful in their claims ...

Sorta can't wait to hear whether anything comes from this army.

But yeah, McCain did a lot better than I expected him to. Bummer.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:21 PM
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Wow. Jamie Tarabay is my new NPR girlfriend.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:22 PM
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That's what the ear to the ground says: a draw. And a draw is a win. McCain just blew his best remaining hope.

max
['Yay!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:27 PM
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CNNs post-debate poll of 500 some adults showed Obama a decisive winner.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:27 PM
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403, 406: I largely agree with some caveats. I think the most striking tv of the night was "You were wrong." So, advantage O. Also, and the talking heads are all saying this, McC needed a win, not a draw. So again, advantage O.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:28 PM
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A draw is actually a win for McCain because people are no longer talking about his whole suspended campaign/financial crisis bailout fuckup. That news cycle was shorter than I would have liked


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:28 PM
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I can draw a turtle.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:30 PM
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McCain has outlived most turtles.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:31 PM
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A draw is actually a win for McCain because people are no longer talking about his whole suspended campaign/financial crisis bailout fuckup.

Instead they'll talk about him failing to beat Obama.

max
['Oy.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:31 PM
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413: slow and steady crashes planes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:33 PM
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396- Thanks, passed on.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:33 PM
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No, it was amazing how well he held his ground against Obama seeing as he was back in DC fixin the Bailout Crisis all week and didn't have any time to prep.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:33 PM
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But yeah, McCain did a lot better than I expected him to.

I seen him on the Daily Show about five or six times or so, so I was already expecting him to do better than some people expected.

Get out the vote, people. Hit the pavement. No way you're going to win the punditry-propaganda war against a man like McCain. You can only out-vote him, and for sure that's the only way you're going to win.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:36 PM
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The NYT has up a "checkpoint" that comes down pretty solidly on Obama's side on all issues. But it's all in paragraph form. I'm not sure how effective it is unless it's a list with a glowing checkmark by Obama's name for each element.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:37 PM
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Mary Catherine, I know heebie. Heebie is a friend of mine. Mary Catherine, you're no heebie.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:39 PM
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('cuz heebie's right, see?)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:39 PM
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How many presidential debates are there going to be, anyway? I don't even know. Obama seems clearly stronger on domestic issues -- the first 40 minutes on the economy, health care, esp. the problems with McCain's health care proposal, were pretty clearly winners for Obama.

I do wonder how many people will tune in to a second (or third) debate; it's regrettable that this first debate was ostensibly on foreign policy.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:43 PM
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538 tells me that not only does the CNN poll of 500 uncommitted voters give it to O, but also two different focus groups, at least one of which was republican led. (Of course that won't necessarily mean a thing.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:44 PM
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423: Oops. CNN s/b CBS.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:45 PM
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422: three.

You know how you can figure that sort of thing out, right?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:46 PM
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There are two more Presidential debates, but the one I'm really looking forward to is next week's. Palin v. Biden. Oh, God, it's going to be a bloodbath.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:47 PM
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What are the odds on Biden fucking up spectacularly?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:47 PM
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427: Don't you think that at this point even Biden realizes that all he needs to do is ignore her/give her enough rope?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:49 PM
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425: nothing would make me happier than for Google's front page to read "Goolag" tomorrow.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:51 PM
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What are the odds on Biden fucking up spectacularly?

Small. What are the odds on Biden fucking up while Palin screws the pooch big time?

max
['I'd say about 20-to-1 in favor.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:53 PM
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425- You do a gulag.
Anyone seen McCain's response ad? (Released during the debate, yet somehow McCain says, "I approve this message.") They took the 3 times Obama said he agreed with McCain- even cutting off half the answer on the last one where Obama said, "Senator McCain is right that business taxes are high on paper... but there are loopholes that actually make them among the lowest in the world." This is somehow evidence that Obama isn't ready to lead. That's right, if you're not a total dick to your opponent, it means you lack the experience necessary to be President.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:53 PM
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I kind of agree with 411. The one thing I wanted to see Obama do tonight was to hang the "suspended" campaign around McCain's neck like an albatross (or possibly a millstone). He didn't even hint at that (maybe there was a hint early on, while I was cooking dinner, but if I missed it just because I was cooking dinner, then everyone missed it). I mean, yeah, this was McCain's best chance to make progress, but this was also Obama's best chance to bury him. We're back to status quo ante, of Obama marginally ahead.

This worries me for 2 reasons: Easier for something to go wrong and cost us the election, and even if Obama wins, he'll have no mandate. Mandates are overrated, but they're not nothing. If Obama wins with 49.9% of the vote, how many Bush Dogs will happily vote and run against him to keep their red districts happy?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:53 PM
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425: Tweetybird, I knew you were going to say that. The question was a segue to the subsequent remarks. All in good fun.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:53 PM
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Don't you think that at this point even Biden realizes that all he needs to do is ignore her/give her enough rope?

I dunno, Biden strikes me as a real gobshite.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:57 PM
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I ain't no bird.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:57 PM
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About sixty percent of the time, I'd agree that Biden comes off as a real gobshite. He can be really good every once in a while.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:58 PM
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A gobshite is like that boba stuff they put in drinks, right?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:59 PM
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No.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:00 PM
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Yeah, but I think that his debate prep is a staff beating his gobshitery, particularly with respect to young attractive women, right the fuck out of him. "Ignoreherignoreherignoreher. Don't tell her she's pretty."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:02 PM
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I agree w/434. The Biden/Palin debate is likely nothing but downside. Biden's a tool (rhetorically -- I don't mind most of his politics) and the bar couldn't be lower for Palin. Unless she's as bad as that Katie Couric interview, but I'd say that's no more than a 15% chance of that.

On the other hand, this debate was clearly a draw at best, which equals a victory for team O. Playing for a smackdown can falter, badly (remember sighing?) and all we need to do is to have the debates not matter much. I'd love a landslide but it's unlikely, so all I want is a win.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:02 PM
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Don't you think that at this point even Biden realizes that all he needs to do is ignore her/give her enough rope?

I hope to god he does. The worst approach* would be to attack her mercilessly. "Oh the mean older man attacked the pretty mother of five who's just a regular gal, who's just learning how to navigate that mean ol' nasty political world!"

* Yeah, I think I'll go with that being the worst approach; there's something to be said for pointed, impatient, dismissive eye-rolling in response to her incoherence, but it's likely better to let the public draw its own conclusions. Then you avoid damaging your own brand in virtue of a charge of elitism.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:03 PM
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Gobshite is the white stuff in bird poop.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:03 PM
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Couple things: at the outset I was annoyed by Lehrer's "I want to make you talk to each other" thing, but within 30 minutes, I liked that they could talk to - and interrupt to correct - each other. Prior debates had this bullshit dynamic where Bush would say, "Kerry voted to give bin Laden the Congressional Medal of Honor," and when Kerry tried to object, the moderator would scold him. And at the end, when McCain wouldn't let Obama correct him on some point (I've already forgotten which), Obama brilliantly let it go - he might as well have brushed his shoulder on it. It was a nice minimoment.

Ezra is focused on McCain's "contempt" for Obama. I know that this is supposed to be the case, but I didn't actually see it in the debate. What says the Mineshaft?

I'm going to be really fucking pissed if all of the focus groups and instant polling shows Obama winning (so far it does), but all the pundits spend the next week calling it a draw or a McCain win. I know it's predictable, but it makes me want to kill them. Correct facts, or explain obscure exchanges (I bet 2/3 of viewers didn't actually get Obama's Spain reference). Don't waste our time telling us who we think won.

Fuckers.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:04 PM
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Also, how many people watched this thing? It was on at 6 pacific/9 eastern. Dinner time for us and boozing time for the east coast. Isn't this the time slot they ran "Dr. Quinn, Medecine Woman" because they knew no one but old people and losers was at home watching TV on a Friday?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:06 PM
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Yeah, but I think that his debate prep is a staff beating his gobshitery, particularly with respect to young attractive women, right the fuck out of him. "Ignoreherignoreherignoreher. Don't tell her she's pretty."

I absolutely hope this is true, but I also think the media will be primed to jump on the slightest hint of patronising or big-meanie behavior, and that the depths of Senatorial vanity born of near-total insulation from basic common sense have yet to be plumbed.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:06 PM
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Unless she's as bad as that Katie Couric interview, but I'd say that's no more than a 15% chance of that.

Would you have guessed that her Couric interview would be vastly worse than her Gibson interview?

Seriously, she's like the ballplayer who looks overmatched the first time he sees big league pitching, then comes back and looks utterly blown away. I see no reason to believe that she can do better in terms of facts. Her only hope is a solicitous moderator plus an assholish Biden. I agree that both of these are possibilities, but I don't think that the combination of the two is an 85% chance.

The only way she wins is if the expectations are set at FAIL.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:07 PM
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The only way she wins is if the expectations are set at FAIL.

And how likely is that, right?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:09 PM
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The only way she wins is if the expectations are set at FAIL.

You say this after spending most of the comment describing how the expectations are set at FAIL?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:10 PM
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Incidentally, all this "McCain is suspending his campaign" BS happened entirely because of Palin's disastrous performance with Couric and the campaign's desperate need to have something, anything, consume the upcoming news cycle in its place. I mean, McCain himself even went off and did an impromptu interview with Couric. It worked, too, as the media bought the line almost 100 percent.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:10 PM
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McCain's contempt for Obama was visible- through a really bad staticky screen--even to my honey and I. It really bothered my honey. Also McCain made some really strange faces. There was that one weird squinting moment while Obama was speaking, and then he gave a creeptacular smile when talking about his "mavericky new partner Sarah Palin." Ew, just thinking about that moment, ew. We both leapt out of our chairs (okay, off the carpet; we don't have chairs) to squirm around after that one.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:11 PM
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the depths of Senatorial vanity born of near-total insulation from basic common sense have yet to be plumbed.

True. I'm also worried about little reflexive things. I am terrified that he will wink at her!

The bar may be low for Palin, but man alive, every time I hear her speak it's worse. I expect her to be terrible, and there she is being even more terrible.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:11 PM
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450: you don't have chairs? Is it because you have a TV? Was it one or the other?

I don't really get New York.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:14 PM
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I dunno. In the VP debate, I'm pretty sure she won't "win." But the only way our side can "win" is if she comes across as a complete and utter idiot and Biden crushes her -- if it's anywhere close to a draw, she "wins," in a way (not that it will make a huge difference).

That's unlike the McCain/Obama debates, where McCain needs a clear win to benefit from the debates, and we only need a draw.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:14 PM
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Don't you think that at this point even Biden realizes that all he needs to do is ignore her/give her enough rope?

Yeah, let's just sit back and roll our eyes like we did at Reagan and Bush Jr.

Fellow Democrats, for the love of christ, please figure out that attacking people works.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:15 PM
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We don't have any comfortable chairs. And Christ, we've been vaguely talking about how we really need to get a couch for about a year now.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:16 PM
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Mary Catherine, you're no heebie.

Never claimed to be, Sifu. Heebie knows no equal. But geez, your offensively defensive posture is a bit much, given that I'm pretty sure you know damn well I'm not even voting in your damn election.

The real action's at Ohio and Pennsylvania, of course. The lunch-buckets and the 'ethnic Catholics.' I think I might even be able to give you a few clues on reaching those voters (yes, even as an outsider, but my own background is somewhat similar), but I doubt very much you'd listen to me, and I'm not even convinced you want to reach them.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:17 PM
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Most normal healthy guys are attracted to McCain's mavericky little partner. Fact. That's what your honey was thinking about when he lept up.

Every time a classicist disses Palin, McCain gets a few thousand more votes. It's a damn good thing that classicists are rare and endangered.

I remember the day when you could bag a dozen classicists right in front of your own home. They were like passenger pigeons -- when they flew south they darkened the sun. But that was then.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:18 PM
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454: You think Biden ripping her to shreds -- which precisely everyone in the world knows he could easily do -- would be persuasive to undecided/uncommitted voters? And, good gravy, he should under no circumstances roll his eyes.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:19 PM
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I just think you're wrong on your analysis, MC.

You can vote her if you want. I mean, as far as I'm concerned.

Give somebody else's name. Jackmormon probably wouldn't mind if you gave hers; she doesn't have chairs!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:20 PM
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Also, giving me clues on how to reach undecided voters is unlikely to help anything until I decide to run for Bacon King.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:21 PM
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MC, I'm from Pennsylvania, I grew up in a neighborhood that was 95% Catholic, and if you have any special insight into how people there think, I'm not seeing it.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:21 PM
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vote "here"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:21 PM
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I may not have chairs, but I vote!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:21 PM
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"Not having chairs" is the swipple's new "not having a TV". Please update your stereotype registry,


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:22 PM
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464: I watch TV while impaled on a dough hook.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:23 PM
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You know who could tear Palin limb from limb? Cicero.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:24 PM
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We have a couple of chairs. All uncomfortable.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:24 PM
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I watch TV while impaled on a dough hook.

I was so keyed up going into the debate that I made bread during it. Cinnamon-raisin delicious.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:26 PM
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You think Biden ripping her to shreds -- which precisely everyone in the world knows he could easily do -- would be persuasive to undecided/uncommitted voters?

I'm just saying that "you'll lose votes by being too aggressive" is right there with "at this company, we don't promote assholes". I hear it a lot, but real world examples are lacking.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:27 PM
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Fellow Democrats, for the love of christ, please figure out that attacking people works.

At least use your pain-compliance tools. Enhanced debating techniques.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:27 PM
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465: Makes it difficult to leap to your feet in indignation, but hey.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:27 PM
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Biden can just play his own game, and answer the questions with complete and thoughtful sentences. (But not too thoughtful!) And attack John McCain.

This was O's weakest ground, and he held it. M looked increasingly angry, which reinforces the instability narrative. But no so much of an imbalance that the press will feel obligated (as they did with their boy Bush) to overrule general public opinion.

Steph pronounced it a win for O on Nightline.

We're better off with the thing staying close until the last week or ten days. But with McCain behind trying one cockamamie game changer after another.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:28 PM
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470: Biden definitely shouldn't cause organ failure, though. Out of bounds.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:29 PM
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I think that Biden should rip Palin apart just for fun. If he doesn't he'll regret it to the end of his life. if Obama wins decisively, he could say "I didn't need to be so reserved". If Obama loses he'd think about the big sacrifice he made, for nothing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:29 PM
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and if you have any special insight into how people there think, I'm not seeing it

Shorter version: they don't trust Ivy League intellectuals, but they do like an Ivy-League-certified scrappy fighter who is on their side and who will go to the mat for them. Fine line between being an outsider egghead and being an egghead who is on our side, obviously. But this shit really matters, is what I think.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:30 PM
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475 -- In my experience, the best way to reach working class catholic voters is to ply them with a shitload of booze.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:31 PM
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The real action's at Ohio and Pennsylvania, of course.

Um, Obama has Pennsylvania in the bag and if he wins either Colorado or Virginia (which looks very likely), he won't even need Ohio.


Posted by: WillieStyle | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:35 PM
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Post-Debate Quiz: How many hours have I gone without eating anything other than bacon?
Post-Debate prediction: How long can I keep it up?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:35 PM
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478: for god's sake, man, don't give up.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:38 PM
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Biden can just play his own game, and answer the questions with complete and thoughtful sentences.

He might also want to make a few remarks about the virtues of putting together an executive team. Hint, hint.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:39 PM
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I know everybody knows this, but I'll say it anyway: the winner of the debate is going to be determined by the media spin. So far, the insta-polls seem to favor Obama, and that 's a good sign, but more important, the media response I've seen seems open-minded - they haven't invented some key Obama gaffe.

I think it's possible that the Republicans are so thoroughly discredited that even the media can't stick up for them any more.

Also, I think 472 is right. I wish McCain had sucked more, but so far I don't see any damage having been done to Obama.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:47 PM
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Um, Obama has Pennsylvania in the bag and if he wins either Colorado or Virginia (which looks very likely), he won't even need Ohio.

Oh well, then. Um, if you're feeling that confident with the polls, well fair play to you (yeah, the Dems got PA in the bag, sure, no worries). And please forget I even mentioned a couple of insignificant swing states, and remember remember the fifth of November, and we'll touch base and compare notes the day after the election, eh?


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:49 PM
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At least use your pain-compliance tools. Enhanced debating techniques.

Debaters who don't answer the question get tased!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:50 PM
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yeah, the Dems got PA in the bag, sure, no worries

Agreed!

That's sort of a banal point, though, since Obama's been consistently ahead there.

I suppose the larger point -- that the electoral map looks great for Obama, and has done so consistently -- is also sort of banal, but it's key to the issue, so here we are.

On the other hand, Tim Russert's dad was in WWII, and now he's dead and Obama went to Harvard and didn't bite McCain's neck goiter off just for the fuck of it.

Food for thought!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:53 PM
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481: McCain's whole "war on the press" schtick is, I think, a huge mistake. They may be cowards, and in the tank, but they're thin-skinned.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:54 PM
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Remember, to get PA, you have to get the synecdochic Mary Catherine.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:54 PM
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Fellow Democrats, for the love of christ, please figure out that attacking people works.

Amen brother.


Posted by: WillieStyle | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:55 PM
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JRoth: I mean, yeah, this was McCain's best chance to make progress, but this was also Obama's best chance to bury him.

It wasn't Obama's best chance to bury him, not at all. Other than withdrawing from Iraq, the consensus position favors McCain, so if you try and bury him, you wind up highlighting the disagreements.

We're back to status quo ante, of Obama marginally ahead.

A bit more than marginally, particularly since McCain doesn't have any reserves. That's where the battle turns - getting the other guy to waste his reserves. Done. (The batle is won in the pursuit, of course.)

This worries me for 2 reasons: Easier for something to go wrong and cost us the election, and even if Obama wins, he'll have no mandate.

Mandates are determined by swing voters, and they don't swing until the last ten days.

Mandates are overrated, but they're not nothing. If Obama wins with 49.9% of the vote, how many Bush Dogs will happily vote and run against him to keep their red districts happy?

Did anybody bother to check the conservative blogs? McCain really didn't win. (It's quite odd, actually; both sides seem to think their guy lost, weirdly enough, which is a win for Obama.)

For the R's to keep Obama to 49.9 they need a third party or they need their guys to turn out, and their guys are totally deflated.

max
['The smell of defeat is wafting from their ranks, especially since the culture war shit is off the table.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:55 PM
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Remember how Bush just declared himself to have a mandate?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:57 PM
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Pennsylvania is second only to New Hampshire in Blue states that I am wary could swing for McCain. I have no expectation of Ohio.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:57 PM
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MC -- I've worked in politics in western PA (not in this cycle), and would be stunned -- floored -- if Obama lost this election in PA after both Kerry and Gore held it. The racism factor is more than balanced by the turnout factor/shift in political alignment of the formerly republican middle and professional class sectors. I see the polls that give you mild concern, but absent a major surprise I just don't see McCain with a remote chance.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is -- $250 to a charity of your choice (including the catholic church itself) if McCain wins PA. I'll give you odds -- you donate $150 to a worthy charity here in south-central Los Angeles if Obama loses PA. Let me know if you're game.

It's also interesting that the only places where the Wall Street crisis seems to have helped the Republicans are in NH and PA. My own pet theory, unsupported by evidence, is that the recollection of Wall Street republicanism is stronger in the Northeast than elsewhere, so some folks look to the Republicans to solve a financial crisis. Still no way that McCain wins PA.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 10:58 PM
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488: both sides seem to think their guy lost,

Yeah, the watchers at our house were all fairly deflated. (I think mostly because of the soft bigotry of expectations of derangement.) However, trying to think about the debate through the eyes of "undecideds" I know, who still have worries about Rev. Wright, Muslim and other crazy stuff—or at a minimum view him as an empty shell "celebrity" piece of fluff*—Obama's demeanor and ability to hold his own was probably something of a surprise. ( I just wonder how many of them actually watched the thing.)

*And at the bottom a lot of this tinged with a dollop of unacknowledged racism.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:10 PM
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I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is -- $250 to a charity of your choice (including the catholic church itself) if McCain wins PA. I'll give you odds -- you donate $150 to a worthy charity here in south-central Los Angeles if Obama loses PA. Let me know if you're game.

Yeah, I'm game, and I hope you win. Let's say you give 150 to Catholic Charities of Brooklyn and Queens if McCain wins, or else I give 150 to some LA-based charity (but not NARAL or anything "reproductive-rights" related, because I really am Catholic on that point, and won't give money to fund that stuff) if Obama wins. Deal?


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:15 PM
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Pennsylvania is second only to New Hampshire in Blue states that I am wary could swing for McCain

If NH swings it the bad way, my guilt and rage will know no bounds. Pretty backwoods? Won't be pretty no more. I'm gradually turning into mcmanus here.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:20 PM
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Maybe this thread is over, but...

I thought Obama pretty clearly won the domestic policy stuff and McCain won the foreign policy stuff, which means Obama won the debate going away, since domestic policy is more important.

But I am so disappointed in how conventional Obama is, especially on foreign policy. Almost everything he said there reeked of this Democratic establishment national security triangulation. Demonize Iran! Georgia and Ukraine in NATO! (An insanely risky and provocative policy). Talk big about forcing Pakistan to take control of the tribal areas or sending our troops in to do it for them! (An even more insanely risky policy, and a case where he achieved the unlikely feat of looking crazier than McCain). Double down on Afghanistan! (why, exactly?) The problem with Iraq is that it doesn't leave us free enough to fight wars elsewhere! The only lesson of Iraq is that we should "use our troops wisely!".

He was also pretty conventional on domestic policy, but I think he understands the issues there and can switch up somewhat in office. On foreign policy, I think he really believes this national security establishment bullshit.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:23 PM
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I think he really believes this national security establishment bullshit.

Oh, who knows what he really believes? Just get him across the finish line, I guess.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:28 PM
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Deal! And you didn't even take the odds! Here's my charity of choice, a great organization doing great work around here:

http://www.cbgcla.org/index.html

Hope that's acceptable (not at all abortion related; I'm personally semi-kinda pro-life myself, although I'm in favor of legalized abortion). Let me know if it's acceptable, if not I'll pick something else.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:28 PM
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The capacity for anxiety among Democrats really is something to behold. McCain just had one of the worst weeks that I can imagine: his veep selection self-immolated, again, on national tv; the markets that he helped deregulate burst into flame on national tv; the deal that he promised to forge to save said markets burst into flames after he showed up; and he self-immolated, claiming he wouldn't debate and then debating, on national tv.

As for the debate itself, Obama held his own, certainly outwonking McCain at at a time that wonks are popular folks, and even trading punches in a few exchanges. More than that, Obama looked presidential, sounded knowledgeable, and repeatedly called McCain a liar, which is fast becoming the narrative of the campaign. It was a good night, people, by almost any rational measure.

Finally, the polls are looking good, the ground game is the best in any of our memories, maybe the best ever, Obama keeps raising more money with each passing month, and he hasn't made a mistake in a very long time. It's okay to think it's okay.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:32 PM
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So, ari, you never, in your life, release anxiety by indulging in pessimism?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:33 PM
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498 gets it right. Canadians: you just can't ever tell.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:35 PM
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499: good lord, Walt, masturbate. You'll live longer!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:35 PM
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501: I'm not sure I want to, now that I know that McCain is our next President.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:37 PM
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497: Yeah, that looks great. I'm personally "pro-life" (by which I mean anti-abortion), but politically I'm "pro-choice," if only passively and reluctantly, because I don't want to impose my almost certainly theologically-based beliefs on others in a pluralistic non-theocratic representative democracy. Don't sit right with me, though, and I won't give money to support it.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:38 PM
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No more masturbating; too, John McCain?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:39 PM
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498 -- Riffing off one point from Ari , as someone who worked professionally doing field work for campaigns in the 90s, I think it's pretty hard to overestimate how much better the Obama campaign is at this than any Democrat has been in decades (since at least the 80s and the decline of the old regional machines). I meant to leave a comment to this effect on one of Beck's old posts but got too busy. In terms of the size and organization of the effort, the numbers of volunteers, and the tightness of the strategy, it's just unprecedented.

Kerry was actually pretty good at this, but his campaign is blown away in comparison to Obama's. And when you look at the Dem field organization in '88, '92, '96, and '00 there's simply no comparison at all. If field is good for 2 points that don't creep into poll numbers in key states, and I think it is, I think we can all feel very good right now. The internet, MoveOn, and the pissed off at GWB factor has really helped a lot.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:41 PM
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So, ari, you never, in your life, release anxiety by indulging in pessimism?

Oh no, a Canadian would never indulge in pessimism. And especially not a nice Canadian boy from Montréal.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:43 PM
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Oh, who knows what he really believes? Just get him across the finish line, I guess

Who knows indeed. But he's digging himself deeply into an aggressively militarist stance, which means that A) he's truly sympathetic with it, or B) he too apathetic / scared to do anything about it, which is in some ways just as bad.

I came away from this debate thinking Obama will win the presidency. I also came away from it thinking that especially on foreign policy, it will be a long hard fight to get a progressive stance out of an Obama presidency. A long hard fight is a big step up over an impossible dream, which is what it is under Bush or would be under McCain. But still. I see us heading down a really dangerous course, and I wish I could have more faith he's the guy to take us away from it.

Honestly, I was disappointed at the timidity and conventionality I saw at this time, where we have so many issues that demand real boldness. I guess I've displaced my Democratic pessimism onto the post-election period.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:44 PM
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499: I do. And I did through Super Tuesday of the primary. And I don't think things are in the bag this time. At least not yet (I have all manner of theories about how McCain might win). But I do think ALL of the indicators favor Obama right now. And pretending otherwise is doom-and-gloomism of a variety that I find unseemly. It really was a good night capping off a good week for Obama. That the good week might come at the expense of the international economy gives me pause. But that's a worry for another day.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:45 PM
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503 -- Awesome. Now I know that if McCain wins, at least I know that my estate will give some cash to charity after I kill myself.

Also, I'm sure that I'll have some chance on some thread soon to set forth my incredibly complex, thoughtful, and nuanced position on abortion , an argument no one else has made with such thoughtfulness and care, but I'm too drunk right now to dodge the bullets.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:47 PM
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my incredibly complex, thoughtful, and nuanced position on abortion

Mandatory. For all.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:49 PM
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I'm pretty optimistic, though I thought McCain won the debate pretty handily. It's because I believe in a place called Structural Models of US Presidental Elections.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:51 PM
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Mandatory. For all.

Ari! Have a doughnut. Maple-glazed, even.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:52 PM
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Ari is the only one of us with a plan for slowing down the release of greenhouse gases.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:54 PM
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I saw an undecided voter poll immediately after showing a huge victory for Obama. It reminded me that a lot of undecided voters simply haven't seen Obama very much, and don't have a sense for how cool, calm, and Presidential he is. I think Obama generally will pick up a few points with more exposure. He's been stereotyped as an inexperienced shallow far left celebrity, when he's actually a reserved and rather conventional Ivy type who comes off as composed, intelligent, trustworthy, and generally somebody who clears the Presidential credibility bar with ease.

The public *wants* to vote Democratic. It's still the New Deal brand, and this is a New Deal time. This is probably going to be the first decade where real family income is lower at the end of the decade then it was at the start. We're in a long, slow-motion recession. McCain has no answer when Obama hits the Democrats are for you, Republicans are for the rich theme. It's like body shots in a boxing match, and Obama is plenty smart enough to work the body. I think the race is his to lose.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:54 PM
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My kingdom (such as it is) for a doughnut. We don't even have any cookies around the house. And we're out of milk! Dry cereal? No, I can't do it.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:55 PM
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What is this "ugh" doing in the "donut", you effete fops?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:57 PM
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511: Yes. Well, I believe in the fundamentals as much as I believe in anything. Other than mandatory abortions, of course. As CN says: Abortion for all! It's the green thing to do!


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 11:59 PM
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Have you had a Canadian doughnut, CN? By the way, I'm re-watching the debate (sick, I know), and I just noticed the McCain threatened to shoot George Schultz. He really is a maverick.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 12:01 AM
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McCain has a loathing of all people named "Schultz". It dates back to this time when he was a POW...


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 12:02 AM
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Halperin gives Obama an A- and McCain a B-. That sound you hear is the conventional wisdom hardening. And no, I won't link to Halperin, that piece of shit.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 12:05 AM
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The Halford platform: I believe in mandatory abortions for Republicans, but am opposed to spaying or neutering animals. Basically, I want a socialist world in which thousands of stray cats and dogs roam free in front of state owned day care centers. And, Tim Horton's is banned. My friends.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 12:08 AM
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outwonking McCain at at a time that wonks are popular folks,

Um. We love you, Ari, but we're not a good sample of the general population.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 5:36 AM
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505: In my paranoid mode I've believed for years that the DLC centrist types deliberately let the ground game weaken, because if you rely on volunteers and rank and file you have to be somewhat responsive to their concerns, and the wonks, operatives, and big donors might lose control of the party. That's the way it seemed in Portland, OR when I tried to volunteer before 2000.

It also seemed that most of the big Democratic strategists had their bets hedged well enough that they didn't really suffer much when the Democrats lost. The Democrats weren't necessarily even their main client.

And that the primary ideological commitment of many Democratic leaders was opposition to the left wing of the Democratic Party.

I'm not sure that the third of these has changed.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 5:47 AM
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You know how you can figure that sort of thing out, right?

The option chosen appears to have been successful.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 6:18 AM
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This thread is really reassuring. I don't watch these people on TV much (I watch TV, that's just not where I get political news), and I thought McCain presented much better than I was expecting, and Obama worse. But I don't trust my perceptions on this stuff to match up with anyone else's, and it looks as if, thank heavens, they don't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 6:23 AM
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I was disappointed that Obama didn't slap McCain down on the earmarks silliness. 3% of the budget. McCain is still promising to balance the budget on waste and inefficiency.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:20 AM
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It wasn't Obama's best chance to bury him, not at all. Other than withdrawing from Iraq, the consensus position favors McCain, so if you try and bury him, you wind up highlighting the disagreements.

I didn't mean the substance of the debate, I meant the circumstances around it - unless I missed it, Obama didn't even make an oblique reference to McCain's stunt this week. People didn't buy it, and I think that Obama could have really smacked McCain down over it, to great effect.

You say this after spending most of the comment describing how the expectations are set at FAIL?

Well, my expectations are set at FAIL, but I doubt that the press will actually head into next Thursday talking about how Palin is likely to descend into actual frontier gibberish, so that anything better will be a win. They will say things like, "She hasn't looked good in interviews up til now, and she has to show that she can hold her own against an experienced Biden." Now, what that will actually mean is "Speak in complete, coherent sentences and not say anything so stupid that even stupid voters know it's wrong," which is a low bar. But it's still a bar I don't think she can clear. After the Couric interview, I will be stunned if she doesn't give at least one utterly, transparently incoherent response plus one nonsensical response that bears a tangential (if not orthogonal) relationship to a talking point she doesn't actually understand.

One thing about last night's debate is seeing just how long and, potentially, substantial these things are. When Bush was in there, it was all about how he was going to sneak through the 90 minutes - he used relentless talking points and his juvenile persona to prevent any sense of seriousness. McCain, to his credit, is a more serious human being than that, and Obama maintained such an even keel that the net effect was pretty grown up. Palin has neither the knowledge nor the savvy to pull off what Bush did.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:47 AM
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Further on Palin: John was saying some insightful things over at LGM (traitor) about how Palin's political success has been entirely at a personal, retail level where not only do you not need the wonky stuff, but also the voters explicitly believe they're voting for a person, not a politician/policy-maker. There's a lot of that in national politics as well, of course, but you need to be conversant with the wonky stuff, if only to appear serious to people who don't, in fact, know you.

Because of his background, Bush in 2000 was much more conversant with rightwing talking points than Palin is now - that's why she's floundering so much. She's been working with the grade school version of wingnuttery, and all the sudden she's in a grad seminar, and she can't spew forth the crap the way even a nutjob like Inhofe can, let alone a McConnell or Boehner.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:51 AM
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Oh, one other note on the debate: I was annoyed (in real time) that they only had one question on Iraq. That had the effect that all other references to Iraq were at a talking point level where McCain could just repeat "surge surge surge" and it was difficult for Obama to take him off his game. I thought the "John likes to act as if the war started in 2007" was superb (obviously a setpiece, but it fit neatly in place), but there wasn't really an opportunity to echo it, which was a shame.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:54 AM
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526: He did address that point, but I think anything beyond what he said would have come across as too wonky. This is one of those areas where (unfortunately) you need both journalists to provide the context and a basic level of "numeracy" within the electorate.

I also think it is one of the areas where you could see Obama getting pissed off* (but controlled it well in the moment). And that is good, I think nether Gore nor Kerry really seemed to hate Bush the way they clearly should have it.

*The one that seemed to really irk Obama was the subcommittee stuff. Rightfully so. That kind of out-of-context abuse of inside baseball stuff is highly destructive to the ability of an organization to function in the future (in this case the Senate). In a fair world, the whole Congress would have descended like a pack of wolves on McCain when he showed up this week, torn him limb from limb and displayed his bones at the entrance to the chambers in perpetuity as a warning.**

** Of course by this standard, Newt Gingrich and John Boehner would have been dead long ago.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:54 AM
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I had thought what had been holding Obama back in the polls against McCain was that he was too much of an unknown quantity for the undecided voter, and once people got a chance to see him on the national stage as the nominee that he would build up a substantial lead that would last until the election.

I expected that to happen after the convention, since the big public speech is Obama's strength. My current hope is that the Palin pick arrested this natural dynamic. Maybe the debate will put that back on track.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 7:55 AM
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I just think that "3%" is basic enough for almost anyone to understand.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:01 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:03 AM
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I like Stormcrow's parliamentary approach....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:03 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:04 AM
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Because of his background, Bush in 2000 was much more conversant with rightwing talking points than Palin is now - that's why she's floundering so much. She's been working with the grade school version of wingnuttery, and all the sudden she's in a grad seminar, and she can't spew forth the crap the way even a nutjob like Inhofe can, let alone a McConnell or Boehner.

I think a great deal of it is also that she's genuinely an outsider to Washington, so the press doesn't know her and is therefore unwilling to explain away her incoherence. I mean, the Pence/Republican Study Group "cut capital gains and provide mortgage insurance" bailout plan really isn't that much more sensical than "I can see Russia from my house", but Pence is a respected player so the plan is treated respectfully. Once a Republican is in the club, there's almost no nonsense they can utter that gets called out as nonsense.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:06 AM
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536 is definitely correct, but I think that you have to get pretty far down into the dregs of the House Republicans before you get someone as literally incoherent as Palin was with Couric (it wasn't that her answers were logically unsound; they didn't describe anything in the English language. Word salad, I read somewhere).

The Gibson interview was bad, but within IOKIYAR bounds. The Couric interview would have embarrassed Admiral Stockdale.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:19 AM
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Yglesias on Pence

This is the kind of thing Yglesias does best, deftly gutting a spokesperson or talking point in a more or less irrefutable way. As a policy analyst he's OK, but there are better.

Early on DeLong compared Yglesias to Kinsley, but paradoxically, Kinsley's contrarian Democrat opportunism pretty much destroyed him. He wrote a lot of good stuff, but he'll be remembered for the shitty stuff.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:27 AM
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And that the primary ideological commitment of many Democratic leaders was opposition to the left wing of the Democratic Party.

I've switched from worrying about Obama losing the election to worrying that this is true of him. In the debate last night, he signaled his acceptance of the ideological underpinnings of three potential new conflicts (Russia, Iran, Pakistan), plus tied himself completely to expanding the Afghanistan war.

I was disappointed that Obama didn't slap McCain down on the earmarks silliness. 3% of the budget.

I'm disappointed to find you retailing this trollish right-wing propaganda, Emerson. Earmarks are about six-tenths of one percent of the budget. You're overestimating them by a factor of five.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:28 AM
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538: I agree. Yglesias' strength is as a propagandist rather than as an analyst.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:28 AM
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PGD's using fuzzy math on us, folks. Pay him no heed. He's an economist, you know.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 8:32 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:08 AM
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ToS endorses Palin, that's interesting, i thought he's completely insensitive being


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:11 AM
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I thought McCain presented much better than I was expecting, and Obama worse.

This was my reaction, also. People kept saying McCain is much better in smaller-scale environments, and I now think this is true.

But none of this matters. The conventional wisdom is something the media will create, and I haven't seen a media this hostile to a Republican since George HW Bush.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:11 AM
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a


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:12 AM
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Huh. McC clearly says "Horseshit! Horseshit!" when O mentions McC's apparent refusal to meet with NATO ally Spain.

Go here and forward to 4:30. (There's a dumb ad.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:16 AM
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I saw that. He's a very cranky man, isn't he?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:22 AM
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A lot of McCain's effectiveness depends on people not knowing what he's saying, e.g. the "earmarks" silliness. And he hammered the same old Raise Your Taxes soundbite.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:23 AM
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A lot of McCain's effectiveness depends on people not knowing what he's saying

Very true. Last night I thought he misspoke when he said fiscal crisis and was willing to let it go. But today I realize he meant fiscal, because if there was a fiscal crisis, a spending freeze might actually make some sense. In a financial crisis, a spending freeze is the last thing you want to do.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:41 AM
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546: That's lovely.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:41 AM
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On one level, the commission's decision to end the regulatory program was somewhat academic, because the five biggest independent Wall Street firms have all disappeared.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:42 AM
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547: At the time, I thought, "Surely he is saying 'of course not!'" But of course not.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:42 AM
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I've switched from worrying about Obama losing the election to worrying that this is true of him. .

JFC, can you save it for January?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:57 AM
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I don't know whether there ever was a golden age when candidates ran on their programs and voters decided between them that way. It has been theorized that with TV, campaigning became increasingly dissociated from governing -- voters voted for an image and a feeling, and policymakers did their work like any other technician while the figurehead mouths the right slogans.

Anyway, my theory is that that separation has broken down, and that major decisions are made on the basis of electoral slogans which are not based on policy considerations, but on political demographics and test marketing. It doesn't seem that McCain really has any ideas behind his soundbites, or any hidden depths; to him the soundbites are truths. (Much less Palin.)

All the way back to Mondale at least the Democrats have tried to run on their program, or at least to keep their campaign and their governance separate, and they've been consistently punished for this.

Ygelsias's Pence article shows that the Republicans in the House (the majority during much of the last 14 years) have no understanding at all of their own policies or the reasons for them. The slogans are all there is. (That is to say, they aren't Chicago School economists, bad as that would be. They're no more economists than I am. They're sloganeers.)

That kind of electoral politics is still state of the art. The Reagan-Atwater-Rove-Bush slogan machine was unstoppable, and won right up until the moment when consequences of their slogan policies became life-threatening.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:58 AM
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Whoops -- 553 me, whoever I am these days.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:59 AM
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Carp, you always need a backup worry in case your primary worry fails you. It's risky to rely on a single parachute.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:04 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:04 AM
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When the ToS is coherent, he lies stupidly. But 557 is an improvement.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:06 AM
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I've only read half the comments but I have to say I and everyone else I watched the debate with was disappointed with Obama.

He's so unbelievably bad at making his points tangible or concrete. He's so bad at using anecdotes. He's so bad at, as someone else said, inviting the audience to share outrage or frustration or any emotion really.

He's endearing, but he's very abstract. I don't think the debate was terrible for him, but he's not winning the election in the debates.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:14 AM
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559: The polls say otherwise.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:17 AM
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559: The polls say otherwise.

I just looked at fivethirtyeight and saw that. It's definitely reassuring.

I still think Obama had lots of good answers, but I'm not sure he had any memorable answers.

But I always tend to be more critical of people I agree with.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:22 AM
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I won't know who I think won until I read the reviews,
but judged by my wonky esthetics, Barry's deadpan aphorisms
trump McC's jittery platitudes.

Why hasn't McC closed the deal on monetary rescue yet ?
He promised to do that before debating.



Posted by: Econolicious | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:23 AM
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||
Wow. No more masturbating to Paul Newman.
|>


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:25 AM
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Yeah.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:27 AM
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We need to a comparison and contrast of the deportments of Barack Obama & Paul Newman to show what Obama is missing or has to hide.

Barry's probably wearing contacts.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:33 AM
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Stupid other thread.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:34 AM
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Obama & Newman at the same ages, of course.

I do think they have a lot in common, besides physical appearance. I can imagine Obama having a smart sneer & snarl we have never seen. Too bad for him, for us, and maybe for the country.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:37 AM
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Obama has yet to be nominated for an Oscar(tm).


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:47 AM
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This is wrong, wrong, wrong, but McCain in some ways sounds as much like a disapproving old lady than a grumpy old man.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:49 AM
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Can Obama eat 50 eggs?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:54 AM
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Obama hasn't even got a Grammy Award. Don't Bill Clinton and Al Gore both have those?


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:57 AM
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571: Sure does too!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:02 AM
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the polls say otherwise
i watched only about 10 min of the debate
just thought that Obama could use to not show his displeasure at McCain's remarks like 'Sen. Obama does not know, does not understand, does not get' etc which sounded very displeasing, he looked kinda easily injured
and he stutter a bit and check his notes often, which could make him look weaker, but stuttering is like winning time to complete the thought, not something one just repeated many times before and says mechanically so maybe it's just his natural habit
maybe looking a bit vulnerable wouldn't hurt him to win more voters though, something like 'Palin paradox'


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:12 AM
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572 - Sure does! Two.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:22 AM
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The end times are here. Brad de Long describes Stirling Newberry as saying something smart.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 1:05 PM
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575:My heart....UHHHhhh...

Just kidding.

Toldyatoldyayoldyatoldyatoldyatoldyatoldyatoldya

No, what this means is that Sarah Palin was the proverbial straw, and Brad has moved from shrill to strange to, as Jim Morrison said, beautiful.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 1:24 PM
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Who's Nirling Stewberry?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 1:24 PM
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Brad doesn't provide a link, but here is SN's latest, in which Newberry says some very nice things about BDL. Hmmm.

I don't think that quote is in that piece. Maybe at firedoglake.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 1:47 PM
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s, s


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 5:56 PM
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Hey, I'm watching the debate finally. The first thing that strikes me: Jim Lehrer is making a classic mistake in running a discussion: interrupting the discussion to tell people they need to talk to each other. If you want them to talk, you need to shut up.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:37 PM
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Barry O won me on the first question, about the financial crisis. He had four well defined bullet points that basically corresponded to the Dodd plan, McC only had generalities.

After that, they went back to seeing who could reaffirm things that everyone agrees on the most.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:46 PM
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McCain will kill ethanol subsidies? He just got a point.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:48 PM
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They shouldn't be competing to see who is the biggest budget hawk. Great Depression like situations aren't the right time to be afraid of deficit spending.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:53 PM
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McCain's stripy tie doesn't look good on internet TV.

In general, you can only tell the difference between the candidates if you pay attention to the code words. For a voter who isn't paying close attention, this is a draw.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 9:57 PM
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Barry O is winning the foreign policy debate, too. "McCain acts as if the war began in 2007" is a great line.

McCain's "A strategy of clearing and holding and then the people become allied with you" is a crappy line.

When I heard the excerpts on the radio while getting the kids ready for school, it sounded like Barack said "I understand the difference between strategy and tactics, and the decision to go into Iraq in the first place was a strategic blunder." His actual statement is less punchy.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:12 PM
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Good, he called McCain on the "bomb Iran" song. Also, his tie looks very nice.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:18 PM
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oh god, the comparative bracelet thing is bullshit.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:22 PM
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I have a cock ring that was given to me by the mother of a young soldier. Right before he died, he mailed his cock ring back to his mom, and said "Don't let another young, sexually adventurous man die like me." His mom gave that cock ring to me, and I wear it on my penis now, and pledge to wear it for the next four years.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:31 PM
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I love this belated live-commenting, Rob. And yeah, I thought the bracelet thing was dumb. OTOH, O did a good job, I felt, of making the point that the bracelet does not mean that all parents of dead soldiers have identical political positions.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:34 PM
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rob was tape-delayed to ensure FCC compliance.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:40 PM
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I may have to drop the time delayed live blogging if my kids get fussy in the middle of the night.

I would have dinner with Raul Castro, Ahmadinejad, and Chavez. It sounds like one of those "dinner with any three historical figures" things. My three are normally David Hume, Zhuangzi, and Socrates, but whatever.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:43 PM
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Ahmadinejad unfortunately can't eat pork. Otherwise I would supply you with a nice ham for the dinner.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:46 PM
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Oh thank god Barry O is pointing out that Ahmadinejad is not the whole of the Iranian government.

You know, a Quaker mission met with Hitler.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:47 PM
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I don't eat pork either. I've long considered getting a pet pig, just because they are such beautiful animals.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:48 PM
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Oh thank god Barry O is pointing out that Ahmadinejad is not the whole of the Iranian government.

Seriously. Unfortunately, (a) O is one of the only people in the US government who seems to know this, and (b) knowing too much about how foreign governments work is suspicious.

That said, it still turns me on when he pronounces "Taliban" and "Pakistan" correctly, and I wonder if there's something strategic in the fact that he Americanizes "Afghanistan," where he thinks we should be doing more offense.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:50 PM
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That said, it still turns me on when he pronounces "Taliban" and "Pakistan" correctly

Really? It kind of annoys me; they have standard Americanized pronunciations, which one should use when speaking English. Just imagine if one tried to consistently say "France" as the French do. Or insisted on calling Germany "Deutschland".

Getting the names of people right as much as possible seems like a good thing to do, but countries? Just seems pretentious.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:53 PM
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"And we will deal with the government of Zhong guo..."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:54 PM
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597: Frankly, that would turn me on, too.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:57 PM
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593: Pacifists are Nazis, as Michael Kelly showed.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:57 PM
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"We sit down with Ahmadinejad and he says 'we're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth' and we say, 'no you won't'"

No, we say "by wipe off the face of the earth, do you mean eliminating a state that is constitutionally a Jewish state and replacing it with a genuinely secular sate, or do you mean killing all the Jews?"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 10:59 PM
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598: Ah, but what if he gets the tones wrong?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:01 PM
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Do the Czechs count as a "fledgling democracy"? On the basis of their avant guard art, I'd say they were more advanced than we are.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:02 PM
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And Greece is "Hella", according to the demented local population.

But screw 'em. Eventually Hellas will invade Macedonia to prevent the Slavic Macedonians from calling themselves by a Greek Hellene name when they're not Hellenes.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:03 PM
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"Hellas". Fuck. Alzheimers.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:03 PM
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McCain just got another point for "I looked into Putin's eyes and I saw a K and a G and a B."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:05 PM
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Frankly, I think that the question of whether to have another Holocaust should be discussed rationally rather emotionally. I really appreciate McCain's bringing the question up, though.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:06 PM
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605: Yeah, wasn't that just incredible? I can't believe people aren't saying he lost the debate just based on that line alone.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:10 PM
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The finale: both candidates are trying to squeeze their best points into the lest few minutes, which they know is a rhetorically powerful point. This actually makes everything incoherent.

I like hearing about Barack's Kenyan father at this time. It makes me want to have sex with him. At the same time, McCain goes for his POW story. I respect that too (doesn't everyone here?) A McCain biographer on the Terri Gross show said that the VC broke McCain at one point, and he admitted to whatever crap they wanted him to. After that he intentionally goaded the guards into beating him more, as a strange form of penance.

I'm scoring the debate Obama 2,000 and McCain 2. From here until election day I am a Obama sycophant. After that, critical thinking will be restored.

And so to bed.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-27-08 11:29 PM
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Frank Rich seems really pissed off.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-28-08 12:30 AM
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"We sit down with Ahmadinejad and he says 'we're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth' and we say, 'no you won't'"

See, this illustrates Anscombe's claim that the contradiction of a declaration of intent is the declaration of a contrary intent.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-28-08 1:16 AM
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609: for serious.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-28-08 1:20 AM
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