Re: Till Shift Change Do Us Part

1

Nobody wants to have two useless people in their group for a month during the breakup.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 8:41 PM
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I think the whole proscription is way overdone, though. I could see not wanting people to start dating people they work with -- to many power issues, but it's not like couples working together wasn't the rule for most of human history, or anything.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 8:48 PM
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I don't think people should be allowed to date while holding a job.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 8:51 PM
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4

Not hit on your coworkers? Where else are you supposed to meet people?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:09 PM
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5

What Sifu said.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:10 PM
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6

Dating ATM, though. That's right out.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:12 PM
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7

Only meaningless hookups are appropriate in the modern workplace, Jesus.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:13 PM
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7: I know. I had one in the bookstore where I worked.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:16 PM
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9

6 is a new rule! All existing couples grandfathered in.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:16 PM
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9: they're just jealous. Plus Bave doesn't know about all the bald billionaires who lurk here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:17 PM
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A sort of shockingly high fraction of the women in my field (especially the more senior ones) are married to men in my field. But it's a field with a very, very bad gender ratio. At any rate, this is another of those cases where I realize my experience has nothing to do with the real world.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:17 PM
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12

8: what color were the books in that section?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:19 PM
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13

they're just jealous.

Tell me about it. Let's stand by the water cooler and make fun of them.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:19 PM
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14

Magpie and I have a rule that we won't work for the same company (even one with > 10K employees) simply because we don't want to put all our eggs in one financial basket.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:20 PM
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15

Bald billionaires sex me in email.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:20 PM
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13: heheh, "stand" by the "water cooler". Heh. Right there with you. Heh hoo hah! I love work.

Wait, I don't have a job.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:21 PM
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17

I would date more if I weren't the youngest person working for my (small, male-dominated) company, by a large margin.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:22 PM
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18

I worked at a summer camp where the kids were not allowed to know that two of the counsellors were married. My (not yet) wife and I worked together there too, our dating also had to be kept a secret. (We were dating before then, I went to work there because she was.)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:22 PM
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Uh, yeah, by "water cooler" I meant "the Brita in your fridge."

Wait, do you even have a Brita? Cause I don't.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:23 PM
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18: what was the rationale?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:24 PM
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21

I would date more if I weren't the youngest person working for my (small, male-dominated) company, by a large margin.

pdf23ds is undeniably straight.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:24 PM
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14: Creepy. Wise, I'm sure. I don't think I've ever worked for a company with more than 500 employees, and nobody I know now, off the top of my head, works for one with more than, say, 100. Different worlds.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:25 PM
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Actually I'll point out that two of the commenters in this very thread kept their dating secret from unfogged. Was the reason because of official policy? You decide.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:26 PM
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And now I recall that my parents met at work, so I'm objectively pro-workplace-dating.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:26 PM
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20- I forget the exact explanation during training, something about kids feeling "out of control" when they hear about relationships between people in positions of power.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:27 PM
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22: it's pretty weird that Josh has to bring eggs to work, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:27 PM
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27

When I worked at summer camp, all the kiddies were sure I was dating a fellow counselor who was soooo gay. Our campy pas de deux to "Total Eclipse of the Heart" at the first dance convinced them of our undying passion.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:27 PM
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28

My company has like 15 employees in this city. We recently bought and merged with a company in Chicago with like 50 employees, but that doesn't count.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:27 PM
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29

Creepy.

Okay, of all the potential reactions I considered to my comment, this was not one of them. What's creepy about it?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:27 PM
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30

27: I'm super jealous of that guy now. I would totally do a pas de deux to that song.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:28 PM
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31

It involved lots of slowly dancing away from each other, and then running across the dance floor into each other's arms at the high points of the song.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:29 PM
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32

Did they call you Bright Eyes the rest of the summer?
The kids at wife's school were sure she was dating the guy she carpooled with. They always went home together!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:30 PM
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I would totally do a pas de deux to that song.

I think I know what Sifu and Blume's first dance is going to be at their wedding.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:31 PM
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34

31: dude.

I'd do that with him it just sounds so awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:32 PM
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35

Actually I'll point out that two of the commenters in this very thread kept their dating secret from unfogged. Was the reason because of official policy? You decide.

Parsimon and pdf23ds didn't need you giving away their secret now, either.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:32 PM
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36

Baby Got Back, duh.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:32 PM
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37

35: well maybe I didn't mean them. Maybe I meant that "Styptic Cred" fellow and that nice "CN" lady that have been about.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:33 PM
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38

21: You're gay, right? Even so, I doubt you'd find much to look at where I work. Well, there's one guy, but he's really short and republican.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:33 PM
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39

MUST SEE OR HAVE VIDEO OF SIFU/BLUME TOTAL ECLIPSE.


Posted by: OPINIONATED YENTA | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:33 PM
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40

I'm not going to bore you all with how happy 36 makes me, but really, date people on unfogged!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:33 PM
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41

Baby Got Back, duh.

We went to a wedding where the bride started dancing to that.

They got divorced less than 6 months later.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:34 PM
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42

38: you don't have to use code. You can just say he has a tiny penis.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:34 PM
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43

I'd be happy to date someone from Unfogged. Any volunteers?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:35 PM
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44

33: "Billie Jean". Duh.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:35 PM
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29: Actually, it was just the 10K figure as a reference point for number of employees. But probably the figure was pulled out of a hat. I also don't know a lot of people with the portability to move around companies to that degree. You all are in tech or management fields in some way, I take it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:35 PM
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46

I'M HORNY AS A LADY MOOSE, PDF.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:36 PM
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47

38: yeah, more just thinking about the whole ancient Greek model, which I'm not really into, except my boyfriend right now is ten years older.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:36 PM
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48

That's going to be song #2, 8, and 17.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:36 PM
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49

46 nearly caused me to spit red wine all over my screen.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:37 PM
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48: why stop there? I think we should have it playing twice simultaneously, continuously, for three or four hours. People love that song! They'll be so happy!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:38 PM
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51

I was expecting "PDF" in 46 to be a link to something illustrative.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:38 PM
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52

but really, date people on unfogged!

I suppose this is the thread for confessing that I tried that, but it didn't work out. The other party should remain anonymous to protect the innocent.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:38 PM
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53

Instead of a chillout room at the dance party, we can have a Billie Jean room.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:38 PM
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54

53: it'll be like a sixties be-in, but it'll be a billie jean-in. Everybody'll come out that bearing beatific smiles and a kid who's not Michael Jackson's son.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:40 PM
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55

52: Knecht is kind of a weirdo, as I'm sure you now realize.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:40 PM
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56

I can be plenty illustrative.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:40 PM
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57

Wait, but you said we could invite Michael! I know we've gotta trim the list, but come on.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:41 PM
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58

52: Fine, asshole. You don't want to talk about it, then I guess no one's hearing my side of the story.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:41 PM
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59

Off-blog sanctity blah blah blah. The entreaties to date people on unfogged aren't needed, probably.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:42 PM
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60

Are we talking wedding or rave here?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:42 PM
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61

Fuck, pwned in 55.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:42 PM
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62

61: fuck-pwned, even.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:42 PM
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63

Seekritly, everyone on Unfogged is dating.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:43 PM
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64

63: Standpipe's blog has the details.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:44 PM
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65

57: sure, we can invite him, but I'm damn well mocking his music to his face.

Not because I hold any grudge, just because yelling at him up close to his nose would make a cool whistling noise.

60: like we can't have both. In one day. We're commentariat, Josh.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:44 PM
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66

Not on the first date, Stanley.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:44 PM
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67

So, anyway, generally the only women I see are coworkers, so I'm always happy when I'm not attracted to them.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:45 PM
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68

66: Such a prude, this one.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:45 PM
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69

Actually, it was just the 10K figure as a reference point for number of employees.

Ah. While I've worked for companies that large, I generally prefer smaller shops; the 10K was mostly intended to mean "even giant companies you wouldn't think would go completely out of business".


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:45 PM
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70

My mother always said, why would the boys buy the fuck-pwnage if you give it away for free?


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:48 PM
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71

like we can't have both. In one day. We're commentariatDFHs, Josh.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:48 PM
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72

70: I.e., it's not how low you hang the fruit, but how sweet it is that counts.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:51 PM
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73

16: If you find a job, could you give it to my wife? Feeding her is really cutting into my martini budget.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:52 PM
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74

72: Does your fruit hang low, AWB? Maybe you need to re-read B's bra post.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:53 PM
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75

Realizing I really like a lot of Michael Jackson's music, I rephrase 65:

57: sure, we can invite him, but I'm damn well mocking his later music, freaky and unappealing lifestyle choices, bad plastic surgery, and ability to hold Armsmasher in his thrall to his face.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:55 PM
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76

74: I wish. I'm underendowed, like Bave.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:55 PM
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77

I freaked out my younger cousins last Christmas by correctly identifying a young Michael Jackson song off of some Christmas compilation CD that was in a stocking. I impressed myself, too. I have to thank a 20/20 special on Michael and some youtube videos.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:57 PM
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78

Oh, shit! I thought 42 was a crack at Bave, but now I see my 76 doesn't make sense.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:57 PM
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79

76: I am wounded to the quick. G'night, all.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:57 PM
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78: I was wondering why it was notable that Bave (presumably) has a flat chest.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:59 PM
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81

Besides, as any fule kno.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:59 PM
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82

Don't think we're gonna get all 'sweet prince' on you, Bave.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 9:59 PM
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83

Pigpile on Bave!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:02 PM
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84

Sifu is PC.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:12 PM
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85

Sifu is John Hodgman.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:18 PM
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86

Nah he was several grades ahead of me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:21 PM
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87

mi bacru lo na valsi i lo prenu cu tirna je xenmi'a


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:21 PM
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88

Is it wrong that I find ToS kind of adorable?

Of course it is.

Of course it is.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:25 PM
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89

88: I don't know what on earth it is you're on about.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:43 PM
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90

Me either, man. Me either.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:44 PM
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91

88 got that cute when they're so young and awkward they still trip over their own feet thing going, I guess


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:47 PM
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88: i va'inai lo valsi po mi cu culno ka'e se jimpe (My comments, on the other hand, are perfectly clear.)


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:47 PM
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93

92 to 89.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:50 PM
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94

||
even get that feeling you've forgotten to get something off your mirrored-backup drive after a crash... right after you started a destructive mirror overtop of it?
|>


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:53 PM
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One time I backed up some files to CD-R and reformatted my HD only to realize afterwards that only the TOC of the CD had been written, making it appear to be a complete burn until you actually tried to *open* one of the files.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:56 PM
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96

94: Relevant.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:58 PM
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97

Oh, nasty. This is nothing like that, luckily, the HD has already been recovered. For random reasons though, there was abut 100 Gb of data files on there I had to sort through (to recover maybe 2Gb). I was much more certain I'd done them all before I started writing over them


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 10:59 PM
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98

96 is half the reason we have hundreds of CDs


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:00 PM
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99

One time I had this weird corruption on my hard drive (that I eventually fixed by changing the I/O mode for that drive in the BIOS to the wrong one, running a norton disc repair utility, and then changing the mode back so it would boot) that I at first tried to fix by looking at the raw hard drive data. Turns out your hard drive is littered with old copies of sections of files you've edited and saved repeatedly over time (like source code or word documents). Interesting.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:03 PM
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100

[Terrible joke about Kobe sleeping with business associates]


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:06 PM
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101

100: absolutely. I've successfully used this feature to reconstruct files on a unix system after an ill advised rm, even after many days. Recreating inode tables by hand is a huge pain, but text files particularly can be saved pretty easily by context, at least most of the way. If you're missing a bit of an oft-edited one, chances are there's a similar bit lying around.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:07 PM
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102

erm 101->99. Probably makes more sense


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:07 PM
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103

99 is the reason there's those weird "permanent delete" programs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:09 PM
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104

Of course, those permanent delete programs won't do any good for smallish files that are frequently edited unless you run them on all of your free space regularly. (Most have that option, I believe.)


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:11 PM
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105

Partially Clips isn't linked enough.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:16 PM
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106

A sort of shockingly high fraction of the women in my field (especially the more senior ones) are married to men in my field

Sounds like my wife's workplace. When she moved there, someone there said to her, "It's great to have a woman in the department who's not married to a man in the department."


Posted by: John Nance Garner | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:29 PM
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107

I would date an unfogged person, except all the single wimmins live thousands of miles away.

Now's your chance to speak up, single californian wimmins.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-21-08 11:59 PM
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108

I met C at work. No one there seemed to care, and they got us Le Creuset for a wedding present.

I've considered dating Ttam, because I think he's nearest, but to be honest, I find the idea of his gorgeous exotic wife a bit intimidating. But I'm totally up for phone sex if anyone has a good long distance call deal.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:03 AM
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109

You could always date OneFatEnglishman.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:10 AM
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110

Single women still comment here?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:11 AM
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111

A colleague became engaged to a woman who he technically managed (it was a small team of people who did their own thing) in a previous job, and his boss called him in and told him to fire her, as it was inappropriate.

They left the country.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:17 AM
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70: I.e., it's not how low you hang the fruit, but how sweet it is that counts.

Both.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:20 AM
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113

A couple of my colleagues are married to each other [this is in the 'day job']. I barely notice them even talking to each other at work.*

* not because they aren't getting on, they just work on different projects.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:32 AM
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I find the idea of his gorgeous exotic wife a bit intimidating

Heh. When she started wearing those shoes with the knife blades hidden in the toes it did put a few people off ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:35 AM
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115

If any of the Unfoggedtariat need to flee the US after a McCain/Palin win, you're welcome to sleep on my couch. Dating should get interesting. I'll watch.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 4:51 AM
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116

I have a shed, which you can share with the various semi-feral cats and things that lurk in it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:07 AM
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117

I once worked in a restaurant where one of the chefs was married to a sous-chef. He was actually noticeably more professional when she was around, e.g. less sexual harassment of waitresses, less throwing knives when he was upset, less getting drunk on the job.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:16 AM
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115: Watch, not participate? That seems standoffish.

116: The hospitality is generous, and feral cats I don't mind, but can we get some more specificity on the 'things'? Rats, mice, squamous horrors from before the dawn of time?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:25 AM
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re: 118

I presume there's an epic colony of spiders and small birds. The shed has been partly invaded by ivy, so when you open the door it looks like something from an Indiana Jones movie, full of creepers and cobwebs. The door also can't close completely, hence the cats and small birds.

We still use it, but my wife refuses to go in.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:28 AM
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120

So, not just refuge from an inhospitable political climate, but ecotourism. I like it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:38 AM
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I'll try and remember to take a photo, the whole shed is literally invisible inside the ivy/bushes. It's just a small white door into what looks like an enormous plant.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:44 AM
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When I worked as a teacher at a summer program for middle school students we were warned in advance that kids that age are so obsessed with figuring out relationships and the rules and behaviors associated with them that any hint of a relationship would be a massive distraction as the kids halted all other work in favor of dissecting the operations of said dalliance and even without a hint of a relationship they would make up a few to keep themselves occupied. They insisted that the teacher in the neighboring classroom and I were dating solely because she and I had similar accents. When we indicated that we were not dating each other but in fact each had an off-campus SO they became obsessed with finding out whom we were dating because, they said, clearly we were each cheating on our SOs with one another.

The general rationale in companies where I've worked has been that relationships within the same organization might lead to unfairness or, importantly, the perception of unfairness. Though it might seem silly and invasive, I can assure you that in a sufficiently large organization there is enough bureaucratic and political wrangling to fuel plenty of gossip, hurt feelings and tribalism without everyone having a relationship on display to use as an excuse for even more gossip, hurt feelings and tribalism. No smart manager wants to allow yet another reason for The Whiner to whine.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 6:40 AM
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On a intellectual and rational level, I'm pretty much a libertarian on this issue, in the sense of "Adults should be trusted to behave like adults, and will and should do what they like in their personal lives." I do think companies should forbid relationships between people with direct supervisory responsibility, because that gets you tangled up in all kinds of financial and lawsuit-courting mishegas.

But on an emotional level, I loathe working with couples and have never hired any myself. Intellectually it may be true that adults are capable of having a romantic relationship without letting their personal issues spill over into the workplace. Practically, I haven't seen people achieve it.

Much more likely that you have Spouse A complaining about the task you have assigned Spouse B, or Spouse B offering you tips for how to deal with A. You get Person C tied up in knots because she can't in the ordinary way of things ask her colleague to cover for her on another shift if she knows that Spouse A will be angry if Spouse B says yes to working the holiday weekend.

As a manager, you can't give a raise for good performance to A without B knowing about it, and knowing that you are implicitly saying that B is not doing as good a job.

And then there are the boring, simply logistical issues that can just kill small companies. If Spouse A gets stuck in Vermont due to a family emergency, B is there too. If Spouse A is in the hospital, B is caregiving. It is terribly hard on co-workers to have to cover for this sort of thing repeatedly -- and of course that's true of any colleague, but when it's spouses you have the magnified effect of two people being gone, and one less to do the filling-in.

Yeah, so, I don't want to run around making laws about this sort of thing, but I hate it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 7:16 AM
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But on an emotional level, I loathe working with couples and have never hired any myself.

Is marital status a protected category? What I mean to say is, can an employer legally discriminate on this basis?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 7:59 AM
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Is marital status a protected category?

Yes (depending on the state, at least), though this usually only means a protection based on your status as a married/single person, not on whether your significant other is a coworker. I believe Hawaii is an exception to this, though, and actually has protections about marrying coworkers.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:08 AM
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Single women still comment here?

Yes.

I'm pretty much a libertarian on this issue.

Whatever one might otherwise conclude as to workplace romance, dating libertarians in the workplace must really be strongly discouraged.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:18 AM
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On a intellectual and rational level, I'm pretty much a libertarian on this issue,

Witt disappoints me. Relationships must be extinguished, and forbidding workplace relationships is a good first step.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:23 AM
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I have the 123 problem just because I work with a close friend. The department administrator gave us an office together, which is nice, but he schedules us during the same teaching blocks because he thinks it's good for us to travel together, not realizing this means neither of us can schedule office hours without the other being there. (Awkward.) But worse is the fact that he tells one of us something clearly meant for the other's ears, ALL THE TIME. If I didn't get the classes I wanted for the next semester, he'll go to my friend and tell her his rationale. He'll tell one of us about meetings and not tell the other, and so forth, assuming that we are basically one person.

It's not just annoying for everyone else when a workplace treats you like a couple; it's also annoying for the couple. I totally see why my married professors at my alma mater never talked about being married. If you asked one where the other was, they'd say, "Oh, you have to ask him/her." They wouldn't sit together at meetings, or share information about advisees. At the time, I thought it was overkill, but I get it now.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:25 AM
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We have one workplace couple at my small company (same-sex, even). The fact that their roles in the organization are pretty different helps avoid some of the problems people have been talking about - there's no single 'group' that takes a double whammy if something affects both of them.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:27 AM
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Let me just say that "bump uglies" is my most hated euphemism for sex.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:31 AM
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One married academic couple I know is extraordinarily sensitive to the fact that married professors are often treated as one unit. Not in just the 'oh, you have to ask him/her' sense, but in the 'we try to refrain from discussion our impressions of students so a student who wants to work with me doesn't have to impress my spouse, also.' This has been a good thing, I think, for everyone involved.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:37 AM
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"Bump uglies" is supposed to be annoying and crude, I think, like "do the dirty". The opposite of a euphemism, a dysphemism.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:48 AM
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"Bump uglies" is supposed to be annoying and crude

Just like sex itself!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:52 AM
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109 - OFE's oop north somewhere, I think. I was just being lazy.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 8:57 AM
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"Bump uglies" is supposed to be annoying and crude

Yeah, I thought it was a sort of sex-shaming term.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:02 AM
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When I worked as a teacher at a summer program for middle school students we were warned in advance that kids that age are so obsessed with figuring out relationships and the rules and behaviors associated with them that any hint of a relationship would be a massive distraction as the kids halted all other work in favor of dissecting the operations of said dalliance and even without a hint of a relationship they would make up a few to keep themselves occupied

Middle School, eh? When I got back one year after Spring Break I was lecturing to an upper-division undergraduate class and, after writing something on the board (left handed, new ring) said, "Any questions?" One of the women in the class elbowed the one sitting next to her, who put up her hand and said "Did you met *married*?!" I said I had, and so we got a genial minute or two out of that. I say, OK, back to work. Then we get to another questions bit, and someone else in the class asks, "Was it really romantic?", which gets followed up with "Is there a video of the ceremony? Can we see the video?"


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:09 AM
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"Does your wife 'go'? Nudge-nudge, wink-wink".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:24 AM
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can an employer legally discriminate on this basis?

IANAL, but given that I've worked at a lot of places where "We won't hire family members" was literally written into the employee manual, I'm going to assume the answer is yes, they're allowed to discriminate based on this.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:29 AM
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I know there's been some legal decisions around this, at least in academics, that went the other way, because Grandma tells the story of how she wasn't allowed to be hired at the state school where my grandfather was in the 50's and 60's, (they were in the same department and met in grad school.) And then some decision came through (which I thought was legal, but maybe not) and the anti-nepotism rule was reversed, and she was hired on, with tenure.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:34 AM
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In Taiwan ca. 1983 they tried not to hire non-family-members, and mistrusted them if they had to hire any. There's always the fear that an outsider will feed useful information to a relative in a competing business.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:34 AM
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I met a woman MD about 1995-2000 whose career suffered a 20-year interruption when her MD husband took a job with a hospital that refused to hire her, and in a location where there were no other MD jobs (or maybe where no one would hire a lady MD). A sad story. Her self-confidence was visibly damaged as she tried to start over again in her 40s.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:39 AM
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Between sexual harassment issues, fraternization, nepotism and dead weight loss, I'm surprised that more companies don't adopt strict Emersonism.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:40 AM
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141 That's really hard, but also probably says as much about their relationship as it does the hospitals policy, I'd guess.


139: Universities seem to be all over the map. Some of them have an official policy of dual-hires, others make this extremely unlikely.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:42 AM
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143: The husband was widely hated for other good reasons, so yes.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:46 AM
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133: Dood, you're not doing it right.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:51 AM
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Universities seem to be all over the map. Some of them have an official policy of dual-hires, others make this extremely unlikely.

I would imagine that universities in, say, Clemson, South Carolina would be more likely to hire someone and also hire their spouse, than universities in, say, New York City. But maybe it's the other way around, who knows.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 9:53 AM
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Partner hiring in academia leads to scandal and suicide:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_/ai_n16504240


Posted by: Bad Taste | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:03 AM
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I would imagine that universities in, say, Clemson, South Carolina would be more likely to hire someone and also hire their spouse, than universities in, say, New York City.

Yeah, geography matters -- the bigger the cluster of universities in an area, the more likely a school (especially a good school) is to make the dual-career thing a private problem for the couple rather than an opportunity for the school.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:06 AM
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146: I think there are different reasons, but all mostly around retention. So an isolated college town school trying to hold onto good people will make an effort to hire spouses in a way that a school in a big metro won't need to, etc.
Also, some schools trying to improve their faculty quality will make similar moves.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:20 AM
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Oxford do dual-hires. Or at least they're not against them.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:32 AM
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So an isolated college town school trying to hold onto good people will make an effort to hire spouses in a way that a school in a big metro won't need to, etc.

Except they still do an insanely dismal job. This is really one of the most inhumane parts of academics - that the industry allows so many long distance marriages and relationships as status quo.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:34 AM
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151: Yes, in general they do. There are some schools with explicit spousal hire policies though, which is why I said it's all over the map. As a whole though, it's pretty dismal. It's a sellers market.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:47 AM
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151: Also, I have friends (in our discipline) who gave up on the entire north american market and took jobs in the UK for this reason. Ask me how optimistic I am about the market this year.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 10:56 AM
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My adherence to Emersonianism will allow me unfettered freedom to take the prestigious job offer from Buttfuck Community College.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:04 AM
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This is really one of the most inhumane parts of academics

There are humane parts? For intelligent, well-educated professional types, you people put up with a remarkable amount of shit.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:04 AM
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Eight hits.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:07 AM
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My favorite is the Russian one.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:08 AM
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If Bumfuck Texas were not veritable paradise, Heebie would not have been willing to relocate there single. But she knew that men would flock to her, given the favorable location.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:09 AM
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There are humane parts?

Yes, there are. Just personally, I could probably double my salary relatively easily by going to industry, but my life would be more constrained in many ways and my work would not be nearly as interesting. It's all trade offs.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:10 AM
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Let me recommend "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt again. Hat-tip Megan.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:13 AM
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Your must be thinking of Lubbock, John.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:13 AM
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139: Your grandmother is Mary Ellen Rudin?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:16 AM
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Indiscretion error?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:17 AM
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God I hope not; I meant that as a joke. I have no idea what her real name is -- it just reminded me of a famous story. If it was an indiscretion error, then I apologize.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:22 AM
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I think Bumfuck, TX is near East Bejeesus. Or it could be in the next county. They are equidistant to Waxahachie.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:28 AM
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Your grandmother is Mary Ellen Rudin?

Ha, no, but that would be awesome. Grandparents were in a different field than me.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 11:54 AM
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Let me recommend "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt again. Hat-tip Megan.

Seconded. I read it after the last time it came up here and it was well worth the read.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:25 PM
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159: Yeah, I know, but there do appear to be a remarkable number of potholes in the road to the academic good life.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:32 PM
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168: Yes, there are. How else are you going to force most drivers off the road? It's a pretty nasty system in many ways.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:34 PM
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Yeah, I know, but there do appear to be a remarkable number of potholes in the road to the academic good life.

The key is: be unambitious. I love my academic life.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:40 PM
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Asilon, my heart is broken.


Posted by: Another Fat Englishman | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:41 PM
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Not everyone can live in lovely downtown Bumfuck, Heeb. You've been spoiled. You should not parade your happiness before your less fortunate brethren and sistren.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 12:52 PM
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Oxford do dual-hires. Or at least they're not against them.

Nowhere's really against them--though, just as I write this I can think of one or two people who are, on the basis of marriages that broke up in front of everyone across a series of faculty meetings. They're just pretty difficult for to make happen, under most circumstances. It's awkward when people are in the same field, awkward for other reasons when they're in different fields, awkward when one person is clearly way better than the other one, awkward when they are both good, etc, etc. Just all round fucking awkward. Emerson is right.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:02 PM
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Not to commit an indiscretion error (that is, feel free to say "I don't know what you could possibly be talking about"), but don't you have recent experience with the two-body problem? How'd that work for you guys?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:11 PM
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(that is, feel free to say "I don't know what you could possibly be talking about")

It will be extremely plausible, after that.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:13 PM
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171 - look, if you're in the southeast, I'll give it a go .... otherwise, do you mind if I bring my dog? And my children?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:19 PM
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173 - yeah, the ones I know of in Oxford are appointments of foreigners, where I imagine "have me, have my spouse" is more of a dealbreaker.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:24 PM
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171/176: Failing that, I've got family in the south east who might put AFE up in the name of a good cause.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:25 PM
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"have me, have my spouse"

Randy!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:26 PM
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Who's Randy?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:46 PM
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Randy!

The English have a long, honorable tradition of rum, sodomy, and the lash.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:52 PM
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I am.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:52 PM
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The key is: be unambitious. I love my academic life.The key is: be unambitious. I love my academic life.

This is the key to happiness in all aspects of life.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 1:56 PM
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I think Bumfuck, TX is near East Bejeesus. Or it could be in the next county. They are equidistant to Waxahachie.

Bah. It's Buttfuck, Egypt (according to PKDick) and East Jesus, Montana. Texas has real towns with names like Gun Barrel City, Krum, Log Cabin, Fate and of course, Annetta, Annetta South, and Annetta North.

It even has 'metropolitan areas' like Hurst-Euless-Bedford, aka Hurt Useless Buttford.

max
['I mean, really. C'mon.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:04 PM
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Upper Baboonasshole Is in Egypt, per Wm. Burroughs.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:05 PM
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Any truth to the rumour that the settlers of Bumfuck TX had ancestors from Buttfuck, Egypt? Probably not.

Buttfuck Egypt was where one was threatened with being tranferred, from beautiful Okinawa.

The boondocks comes from the tagalog, "bundok" meaning mountain. As in far away from here.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:12 PM
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The key is: be unambitious. I love my academic life.The key is: be unambitious. I love my academic life.

This is the key to happiness in all aspects of life.

What, repetition?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:14 PM
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The English have a long, honorable tradition of rum, sodomy, and the lash.

In America, it transformed to the lash, sodomy, and piss-weak beer.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:15 PM
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187: Tenure-track slots in the Department of Redundancy Department at East Bumfuck State Teachers' College don't come along every day.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:19 PM
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184: I feel that I must stand up for the honor of my own blue state, home of Virginville, Intercourse, and Climax. Actually, 2 Climaxes.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:20 PM
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Holy shit - Fertility is near Intercourse, and Blue Ball is between Virginville and Intercourse.

The mind boggles.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:23 PM
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190: Newfoundland probably takes the odd place name cake.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:24 PM
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Actually, 2 Climaxes.

Pennsylvania knows how to treat a lady.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:26 PM
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Those Amish are up to more than you might think, at first blush.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 2:28 PM
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Here we see that Virginville is north of Reading, near Maiden Creek and Moslem Springs. Whereas south of Reading, you have Blue Ball, Brownstown and Reamstown between Reading and Lancaster, and then Intercourse and Paradise east of Lancaster, while Mountville and Mount Joy are west of Lancaster.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:01 PM
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Not to commit an indiscretion error (that is, feel free to say "I don't know what you could possibly be talking about"), but don't you have recent experience with the two-body problem? How'd that work for you guys?

I'm not sure what you mean by "How'd that work", but basically we've been atypically lucky.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:01 PM
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I apologize to all for having missed Reamstown.

I feel kind of dumb for having seen Mount Joy, yet not having considered the implications.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:13 PM
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196: I was wondering whether you got two jobs at the same institution separately (that is, two entirely unconnected applications and job offers); two jobs at the same institution through a negotiated deal; or two jobs at two institutions that were geographically close enough to each other to make it workable. But this is nosy, and absolutely none of my business -- I just find the horror that is the academic job market fascinating.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 3:57 PM
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I was wondering whether you got two jobs at the same institution separately (that is, two entirely unconnected applications and job offers); two jobs at the same institution through a negotiated deal; or two jobs at two institutions that were geographically close enough to each other to make it workable.

Technically, all of the above and in more or less that order. Being ahead of me in grad school, Mrs Gonerill got a job at University A. When I went on the market a while later, I got an offer from them as well. So those were unconnected, more or less. But then we decided to go to University B together instead, in a negotiated deal. And after several years there we moved to separate institutions in the same area.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 4:27 PM
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Mrs Gonerill

Albany, surely?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 4:41 PM
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my own blue state, home of Virginville, Intercourse, and Climax. Actually, 2 Climaxes.

Fertile, MN and Climax, MN are only 32 mi apart.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 5:58 PM
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I just find the horror that is the academic job market fascinating.

I ... I ... just don't know what to say.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 6:08 PM
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I just find the horror that is the academic job market fascinating.

Maybe you should write a paper. Get it published in one of those peer reviewed academic journals that three people read. Become an enfant terrible. (generously).


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 6:16 PM
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Pennsylvania has Intercourse, Oregon has Wanker's Corner. Advantage: East.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-22-08 6:20 PM
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294: But Albany, NY has Clit Court. It's at
Lat 42° 41.598'N Long 73° 46.894'W


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 12:46 AM
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294 s/b 204. But you knew that.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 12:48 AM
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188: That's why our Empire lasted longer than your Empire.

Plus, we still have the rum.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 2:29 AM
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The English have a long, honorable tradition of rum, sodomy, and the lash.

I have to admit, I thought that was pirates.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 7:25 AM
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It's Churchill on the Royal Navy, I believe.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 7:32 AM
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A Royal Navy is just a pirate fleet with a Queen.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 1:54 PM
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Theatre is weird, in that I am frequently hired by my wife but, in my opinion, get tougher treatment than the others do. Kind of like the coach's son getting tougher treatment so it doesn't look like favoritism.

But as I said, theatre is weird, and you pretty much learn to play nice at all times and be completely discreet and hold your tongue forever. Cause otherwise you'll be gone. Sooner or later. Word will get around and you will be gone.

In the real world GlobalCorp has no stated prohibition about dating, and I know one pair of managers who married each other and who have worked in different areas for many years.

I think the only concern was the possible appearance of favoritism. AFAIK nobody complained and so AFAIK there were no problems. Most of the advice I've been given was informal and was against dating coworkers because it is pretty bad if you break up and must still work together, so in general I never did it.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 2:18 PM
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But Albany, NY has Clit Court

Sadly, prudes have made the once-common Gropecunt Lane a thing of the past.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 2:26 PM
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A Royal Navy is just a pirate fleet with a Queen.

Every good frigate captain has a bit of pirate in 'em.


Posted by: Jack Aubrey | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 2:30 PM
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209: It's not actually Churchill, but when he found out that the quote was attributed to him, he said he wished he had actually said it.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 2:33 PM
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86% of good quotes gravitate towards Churchill.

The rest were said by Oscar Wilde.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:27 PM
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[After James McNeill Whistler had said something clever]

WILDE: I wish I had said that!

WHISTLER: You will, Oscar, you will.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:47 PM
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I belive the anecdote in 216 was first related by Winston Churchill.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:50 PM
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WILDE: I wish I had said that!

WHISTLER: You will, Oscar, you will cunt.

de-bowdlerised, hth.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:51 PM
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WILDE: I have nothing to declare but my genius

CUSTOMS OFFICER: I'll put that down on the form as "nothing" then, shall I?


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:52 PM
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I believe the anecdote in 218 was first related by Oscar Wilde.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:52 PM
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Churchill wasn't there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-4UL9_bZFQ


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 3:52 PM
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[After James McNeill Whistler had said something clever]

You know what? What Whistler said was actually not clever at all. It was something about Art, IIRC.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 6:26 PM
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I swear I drove past a turning to "Knob Lick" in Missouri once. But this was before camera phones.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 9:03 PM
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You know what? What Whistler said was actually not clever at all. It was something about Art, IIRC.

By jove! I declare that to be the jest of the season!


Posted by: Harold Macmillan | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 9:12 PM
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You are correct, Knob Lick is in Missouri. Whereas Big Bone Lick is in Kentucky.

A town in NE PA is called Sugar Notch. I keep waiting for that to catch on as a euphemism.


Posted by: Shatlas Rugged | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 9:14 PM
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If Obama doesn't quit spamming me I'm going to vote for McCain. I'm starting to think the motherfucker is Nigerian.

/racism


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 9:19 PM
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I got spammed by a Nigerian who wanted me to send him my direct line phone number so he could call me up and explain how he was going to give me £12.5M.

So I made up an e-mail account on the spot, and from that e-mail account I sent him the Metropolitan Police's phone number for reporting non-emergency crimes.

Figured it would save time.


Posted by: Jesurgislac | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 11:09 PM
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/racism

Well that was easy. Wish you'd thought of doing that 40 years ago, Emerson.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-23-08 11:39 PM
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If we're compiling names of funny places, Ohio's Fangboner Road certainly merits entry. After passing the exit, we spent a good ten minutes debating whether it's a boner with a fang or a fang with a boner. It's an unsettled question within my circle.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-24-08 12:23 AM
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Surely it's describing the state of having a fang *instead* of a boner?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-24-08 4:28 AM
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For a thornier lexical puzzle, what's the real joke behind San Francisco's "James Bong Building"?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-25-08 1:40 AM
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Trying to get the last word on some old threads, Sifu?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-25-08 1:45 AM
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Yes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-25-08 9:25 PM
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