Re: Boys And Toys

1

Pac... ing?

I thought the issue with male sex aids is that they don't work worth a damn?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:34 PM
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I have a hard time believing these survey results are the product of a real study.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:37 PM
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A woman playing with herself is doing it because she wants to. A man playing with himself is doing it because he can't get laid. If he'll purchase complicated toys to do it, he must really, really not be able to get laid. In general, female sexuality is scarce and glamorous and cool. Straight male sexuality is common and gross and excessive.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:38 PM
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It doesn't claim to be, but I'm guessing the image was created by a dude armed with a Fleshlight and a grudge.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:39 PM
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a dude armed with a Fleshlight and a grudge

Worst vigilante ever.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:41 PM
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Worst vigilante ever.

Word. Charles Bronson is rolling in his grave.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:42 PM
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I'm not sure how but these rather-NSFW videos of a girl having her, uh, way with a microphone are probably relevant. Apparently feedback is HAWT?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:43 PM
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Mandom would not have used a Fleshlight.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:44 PM
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Straight male sexuality is common and gross and excessive.

No, straight male sexuality is coercive, in that men who aren't sexually aggressive are humiliated by other men into pretending they are. Men who care about feelings or relationships are humiliated by other men into pretending they're not. Men have to pretend they're a lot more interested in non-reproductive sex than they are, while women have to pretend they're a lot less interested in sex than they are.

If we are getting to a point at which a woman who jerks off a lot is cool and liberated and desirable, that would be great, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:45 PM
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Straight male sexuality is common and gross and excessive.

No

Yeah, it is. Most guys have come to terms with it/don't care.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 9:51 PM
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I thought the issue with male sex aids is that they don't work worth a damn?

Two words for you: butt plug.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:15 PM
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A woman playing with herself is doing it because she wants to.

Who cares why she's doing it, dude! Shut up or she'll catch us watching and call the cops!


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:15 PM
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If we are getting to a point at which a woman who jerks off a lot is cool and liberated and desirable, that would be great, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Women who jerk off are certainly well-represented on porn sites, which suggests a good chunk of men are turned on by the idea of female masturbation.

(Yes I'm going presidential over something as mundane as porn consumption. Apologies.)


Posted by: Grover Cleveland | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:16 PM
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12 and 13 are dead-on, in that what the presumably male creator of the image is doing is envisioning the world's most gorgeous woman using that vibrator to jerk off, totally nude, for his pleasure, while the thought of a dude stroking it makes him think of a pimply fat nerd in his pajama pants in front of the TV---i.e., himself. As one of the commenters at Soc Images notes, the vibrator is a particularly unrealistic one (bullet-shaped, not penis-like), while the Fleshlight opening he chose for the image is the only one of four FL sells that actually looks like a body part.

I'd be interested in a survey that showed pictures of real people with their sex toys, male and female, and sex toys of different shapes, and did an actual survey of what people think. We'll start with a pic of Bave and his butt plug. Flickr?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:22 PM
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By "himself," I of course mean a sort of abject self-loathing image of himself, not his own literal self.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:23 PM
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So I think AWB and the guy and the guy in the post actually are inferring from the same set of facts; it is because female masturbation (and more, generally, desire for sexual pleasure) is so much less socially approved than male masturbation (more than it once was, but still) that a woman's ownership of a dildo can be seen as rebelling against an unfair social order.

Also, the idea that any many who owns a masturbation aid is cast as a loser and a pervent is absurd on it's face, unless you're going to argue that men are buying Juggs for the articles.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:27 PM
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OK, I knew not of Fleshlight so I went to their website and all I can say is: racists! They have pink and a beige they call "mocha" but nothing darker.

Also: Mr. Limpy WTF?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:31 PM
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Yeah, the guy and the guy in the post and I may be assuming the same facts, but I guess I'm annoyed that he seems to be so bitter that feminism may be trying to change that stigma, while I'm kind of bitter that men feel that change has already been effected.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:32 PM
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Also, as every man in America knows, it's very very difficult to cultivate the female orgasm. It requires ridiculous lengths of time and excessive amounts of energy. It's no surprise that women use labor-saving devices.

The male orgasm, as we all know, is something that can be produced quite easily with little-or-no fuss. Clearly, a male who needs or prefers a mechanical masturbatory aid is either incompetent at the simplest of tasks or has something physically wrong with his equipment. Both conditions are shameful.


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:32 PM
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Two words for you: butt plug.

damn straight. But they work almost too well -- a little too intense. And yes, you can have all the low-hanging fruit in this phrase.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:32 PM
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I also think the nature of the sex toy is at issue here. Fleshlights are retarded. If you're travelling with that, sure, yes, people are going to make fun of you. If you're travelling with your wonder woman costume and noose, hey, be careful, and people will make fun of your body when they find it. If you set off the metal detectors because you're wearing a set of stainless steel cockrings and a rare earth magnet butt plug, I dunno, the TSA people might just think you're kind of a badass.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:33 PM
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17: Wow, so many purposes! Strippers can suck on it, goofy men can stretch it, you can lay them all over your sleeping friend at the beach, and trans men can use them for packing. So versatile!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:34 PM
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The male orgasm, as we all know, is something that can be produced quite easily with little-or-no fuss.

You have not dated very many men, I'm guessing, ed?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:35 PM
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Also: Mr. Limpy WTF

True. But it's not the worst ad copy I've ever read, so there's that; heck, I chuckled, though I understand not its purpose:

The fan favorite of Fleshlight® masturbation product users everywhere, Mr. Limpy™ is always the life of the party! Made from the same Real Feel Super Skin® as Fleshlight Masturbation Sleeves, you can stretch it, swing it, pull it, pack it, or use it as a "gag" gift, if you know what we mean. Great for bachelor and bachelorette parties or simply left out on your coffee table, Mr. Limpy is a great conversation starter and ice breaker. Frequently used by trans gendered men as a packer. Just don't expect to pitch a tent with it (Mr.Limpy is more of a novelty than a sex toy). After all, it's Mr. Limpy, and he's been under a lot of stress lately. Available in pink and mocha in four different sizes.

Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:36 PM
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Also, the Fleshlight site seems to undercut the linked post. On the testimonials page, the main view is "Virgins" and if you click on "Couples" or "Doctors" all you get is "Coming Soon!"


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:36 PM
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17: hah! When we were constructing our glory hole, some old dude came up and flopped one of those through the hole, like we were supposed to be impressed that he was carrying a flaccid latex dick around the desert with him. What an odd thing to own.

The fleshlight, by the way, is nothing on the Venus 2000. Own one of those and people will... well, they'll probably think you're weird. But hey, they'll think you're weird if you own a Sybian, too, so it kind of balances out.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:37 PM
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If you set off the metal detectors because you're wearing a set of stainless steel cockrings and a rare earth magnet butt plug, I dunno, the TSA people might just think you're kind of a badass.

y'know, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is probably not true.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:37 PM
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In the spirit of oversharing, my sex-toy history is thus: the butt plug I bought only a few weeks ago with the Canadian, and it's at his place, and I've only used it with him around. But damn. My current personal sex toys are a cock ring left over from the first guy I ever dated, which hasn't been used since then, and a genuine Fleshlight, which I've used a bit but not tons. It's kind of a production, and tricky to explain to roommates if you're, say, cleaning it in the bathroom. I also once owned a dildo that wasn't that great. Guys, if you're buying your first dildo, get one that's not too fat and that has some kind of bumps on it, not a smooth cylinder. Or just go with the butt plug. Unexpectedly enjoyable.

Sorry, no Flickr.

It's funny; the straight guy friends I have are fine talking about jerking off, but only one has ever confessed to having a sex toy, and that was a cock ring that he uses with his lady friend. And I feel vaguely ashamed posting the first paragraph of this comment, not at all in the spirit of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" and all that.

And with that, I'm going to bed.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:37 PM
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If you set off the metal detectors because you're wearing a set of stainless steel cockrings and a rare earth magnet butt plug, I dunno, the TSA people might just think you're kind of a badass.

"You better have a gun in your pants, buddy, because I've had to look at fifteen semi-flaccid uncircumcised penises already today, and that's about all I can handle."
This is why they didn't want the TSA screeners unionizing. First item on the agenda would have been revising the butt-plug inspection procedure.


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:54 PM
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9 isn't universally true; I say this not to be needlessly sanctimonious, but to hold out hope.

I figure most of the cultural explanation is what ed said: there's a perception that it's really easy for guys to get off with what nature gave them, so buying a pretend orifice is gilding the lily (uh...) or an explicit girlfriend substitute, and that it's harder for women to get off, and a woman "owning" her orgasm is sexy. And she's not going to mistake a toy for a boyfriend.

A sign of fucked up attitudes, certainly, but I wasn't claiming the attitudes weren't fucked up.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 10:58 PM
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gilding the lily

Painting. Painting the lily.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:07 PM
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32

At least I didn't say 'gelding.'


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:13 PM
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33

Or 'gliding'.

Everyone says "gild the lily", though. It's practically canonical at this point.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:16 PM
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34

"gilding the wang" would have been acceptable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:24 PM
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33: you know, it could be that everybody's so familiar with the full quotation that they just leave the middle part out; what's really being said is "gilding the... lily."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:36 PM
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sex toys of different shapes, and did an actual survey of what people think.

No comment.

"gilding the... lily."

Yeah, but normally the phrase when delivered integral goes "paint the lily and gild refined gold", not "gild refined gold and paint the lily". The former has a much better rhythm.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:44 PM
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36.last: but that's a misquote, and we're not allowed to misquote it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-18-08 11:59 PM
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This is why I stick with bringing coals to Newcastle.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:04 AM
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I thought 3 and 9 were both largely right, and not that strongly in disagreement.


Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:46 AM
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Eugene Volokh was all over this topic several years ago (sorry, no link; I refuse to have "Eugene Volokh" + "artificial vagina" in my google search history).

Hmmm, come to think of it, Prof. Volokh's interest in the matter might yield some insight into Becks' original question.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:46 AM
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One of my best friends from childhood works in the animal genetics business, i.e. his employer sells bull jizz. To the extent that one can analogize from bovine to human sexuality, the bull semen production process suggests that the combination of a fleshlight and a buttplug is a very efficient means of inducing male ejaculation. It should be pointed out, though, that the buttplug they put in the bull's anus* is equipped with electrodes, to give the animal that extra je ne sais quoi.

*In my understanding, the electrified buttplug is only used on older bulls. Whether it's because they have trouble ejaculating or because they produce a disappointing quantity of ejaculate, I'm not sure.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 4:08 AM
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It's no surprise that women use labor-saving devices.

It's a mistake to think that it takes a woman as long to have an orgasm without you as it takes with you. That's not an insult. A man will take longer with a partner than he does when he's just trying to get off by himself, too.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 5:21 AM
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A word to those not afraid of sticking things up their butts: not all "butt plugs" are created equal.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 6:02 AM
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44

My understanding is that for women the result of using toys can be more reliable than the real thing, whereas for men toys are a poor substitute. So the guy who's using a toy is settling for an inferior experience, whereas the woman using a toy is just having a better time.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:06 AM
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A man will take longer with a partner than he does when he's just trying to get off by himself, too.

I think a big reason for what you referred to in 23, men having trouble with coming, is that they've habituated to the particular stimulation they use by themselves and have a hard time switching to what they get with their partner.

So the guy who's using a toy is settling for an inferior experience, whereas the woman using a toy is just having a better time.

good times aren't about speed to orgasm.

OK, now everybody go Presidential and list your sex toys.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:18 AM
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All you lightweights working so industriously for your "little deaths". Hah!


Posted by: Nelson Rockefeller | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:28 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:34 AM
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Can we get the hygene team to this aisle, please.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:51 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:53 AM
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9: Well, now I'm going to feel like crap all day.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:58 AM
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Mormon sex toys are so white bread.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:03 AM
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44: Eh, not for me. I think I'm just not interested in "gear." My ex was really into toys, and bought them, and liked to use them in bed. It could either be that I just don't care about a technological experience of sex or that I associate a technological experience of sex with a certain kind of male pornographic vision, in which they get to watch the woman have pleasure, but without getting homophobically skeezed out by seeing the presence of a male body in the frame. I still sort of associate the idea of using sex toys primarily with trying to entertain someone else.

Full disclosure: the only vibe I own I inherited from that relationship, and it's one of those comically unpleasantly large ones, about the girth and length of my forearm. And I have very muscular forearms.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:52 AM
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There seem to be two things going on here. First, what 44 said. I'll sometimes use a vibrator during sex with a partner, because it's a different kind of stimulation, and fun in itself. For the men I'm had sex with, no one's contemplated sex toys (for them) in partnered sex -- there just seems to be less that a toy will do for most men compared to manual stimulation. I've had mostly vanilla partners, none of whom have been interested in anal penetration, so none of this applies to butt plugs and such. But this ends up with sex toys for men simply looking more extreme and unusual -- women using vibrators are fairly vanilla, while a man with a Fleshlight is halfway to being a furry.

More broadly, if we're talking about cultural narratives, when you insult a woman's sexuality, you call her frigid, or uninterested in sex, and when you insult a man's sexuality you call him unable to attract partners. A sexually flawed woman isn't using a vibrator, because the problem with her is that she's not doing anything sexual at all, or if she is, she's frustrating her partner by not enjoying it. But a sexually flawed man is in his mother's basement jerking off to internet porn because he's too fucked up to interact with real women. In this narrative, then, using sex toys is evidence that a woman is sexually healthy, but evidence that a man is sexually unhealthy. (And of course, I'm describing, rather than endorsing, this narrative.)


Posted by: Indira Gandhi | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:54 AM
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a man with a Fleshlight is halfway to being a furry

Mouseover!


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:57 AM
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I should add to 52 that I didn't resent using toys that my ex bought (and omg so many, all kinds), not at all, but it was what he wanted to do in bed, not something that hit my particular kinks. We did that stuff too, but the sex toy thing was something I was doing to satisfy his interests rather than vice versa.

Sex is complicated.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:02 AM
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Mouseovergasm!

I once bailed on a date, years and years and years ago, when we got back to his apartment and he suggested employing some toy or another that belonged to his gone-for-the-weekend roommate. Hygiene being an uncertain thing, I found myself squicked by the very thought.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:06 AM
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More broadly, if we're talking about cultural narratives, when you insult a woman's sexuality, you call her frigid, or uninterested in sex.

Oh, but that's the joy of being a woman -- whether you are "frigid" or a slutty little horndog, something is clearly wrong with you!

Also, I feel the need to weigh in on PGD's A woman playing with herself is doing it because she wants to. A man playing with himself is doing it because he can't get laid. Not, in fact true. Personally, not a big fan of masturbation ("I'm just not that into me"). But, you know, sometimes you go with the necessary evil.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:10 AM
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Come to think of it, 53 is blindingly heteronormative. Ignorance is my only excuse. I don't have a sense of how this sort of narrative works out for gay men and lesbians, although I would guess that it's just much less powerful.


Posted by: Indira Gandhi | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:11 AM
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Also, I feel the need to weigh in on PGD's A woman playing with herself is doing it because she wants to. A man playing with himself is doing it because he can't get laid. Not, in fact true.

Yeah, this is a narrative I gripe about all the time -- that any reasonably attractive woman can get all the sex she wants at will. But I wouldn't take PGD as having said that in a way that means he believes it, but more to refer to what's going on in people's heads when they react to thinking about men or women masturbating.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:15 AM
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The second paragraph in 53 describes just what I was getting at in 3. Also describing, not endorsing. I do believe the cultural narrative is related to some real differences between men and women sexually, especially when you're young, but like most cultural narratives it acts to silence individual diversity.

I don't have a sense of how this sort of narrative works out for gay men and lesbians, although I would guess that it's just much less powerful.

It doesn't make sense for gays and lesbians, it's based on the man being the pursuer and winning the woman.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:20 AM
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In my understanding, the electrified buttplug is only used on older bulls. Whether it's because they have trouble ejaculating or because they produce a disappointing quantity of ejaculate, I'm not sure.

It's because the younger ones aren't secure enough in their sexuality to admit that they enjoy it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:23 AM
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Somewhere in this mess I think the 'sperm - cheap and plentiful'/'egg - rare and precious' concept applies, but since I'm at work I'm not gonna click on any images to be able to justify that.

AWB - your point about guys kidding guys about not getting laid enough mostly applies to youngish guys, and they mostly do it to assuage their own feelings of inadequacy stemming from not getting laid enough.

And the timing of this is really, really, really bad but Di, I may be in your neck of the woods this coming weekend and if you wanted to poke me with a stick or something to verify that I am real flesh and not some computer construct please email me.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:25 AM
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62: Proving PGD's point, I guess... All a pretty girl has to do is timidly toss out a comment that she's a little hard up, and next thing you know the guys come crawling out of the woodwork!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:27 AM
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Yeah, this is a narrative I gripe about all the time -- that any reasonably attractive woman can get all the sex she wants at will.

as I said, I was describing, not endorsing. I do think I've gotten more insight into womens' perspectives on this as I've aged and the testosterone has calmed down. Your teens/early 20s are so powerful for a guy -- the combination of hormonal and social status stuff going on is overwhelming. Now my sexuality feels more, ummm, "feminine", or at least closer to how I've observed women's situation from the outside. Sex drive runs just as deep, but it's less overbearingly urgent and much more integrated into my emotional, social, etc. preferences. So the upshot is: I regularly find myself in situations where I do want sex, and I know I *could* sleep with reasonably attractive person X, but I just don't want to be involved with them in that way. I don't want to be engaged emotionally in the way that sex always does seem to engage you. (I don't know if my perspective on this would be different if I ran in circles that fostered genuinely impersonal sex...you read about this in e.g. gay male life in the 70s).

Never let it be said I don't do my part to keep a thread going.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:31 AM
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(E-mail sent.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:32 AM
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Yeah, this is a narrative I gripe about all the time -- that any reasonably attractive woman can get all the sex she wants at will.

I know this has come up before, so I'm rehashing old material. But women will get bombarded with unacceptable proposals on Match.com, and it's her filtering process that's preventing her from getting laid, whereas men are expected to drop tons of lines in the water and hope for a bite.

I'd say pretty much any woman can get laid using match.com or something similar. Not necessarily picking someone up in a bar, though. Bars have narrow parameters.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:32 AM
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This is the point at which we do the Craigslist experiment, right? The identically phrased ads by a woman seeking anonymous sex and a man seeking anonymous sex?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:35 AM
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62: Proving PGD's point, I guess... All a pretty girl has to do is timidly toss out a comment that she's a little hard up, and next thing you know the guys come crawling out of the woodwork!

Bwahahahahaha!

Yeah, I guess so. Geeze. And in my experience no amount of explaining will get me off the hook. How about if I bring my sister along? Who knows, you two might get along.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:37 AM
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there just seems to be less that a toy will do for most men compared to manual stimulation

Yeah, I don't want to underplay the cultural things that people are rightly talking about, but let's not miss that this is, AFAIK, completely true. What I've always heard is that flashlight-like products are basically a scam. Maybe this has changed thanks to modern material science, but certainly the thought of a blowup doll, for instance, is a boner-shrinker for reasons that have nothing to do with cultural narratives, and everything to do with PVC.

Also, for reasons of physiology, vagina substitutes seem less relevant to [het] couple sex play than dildos/vibrators. I doubt that one plays much into cultural narratives (which I don't think much admit of extra penii in the bedroom), but it probably results in even open-minded people viewing fake vaginas as being for losers.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:38 AM
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63 is really funny.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:40 AM
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66: You're under thirty and pretty, which is going to shape your perspective. "Any woman" includes women who are over forty, who aren't getting a lot of emails on Match.

Now, for any male-female pair of matched age and attractiveness, the woman is going to get more emails, I'd expect -- the man's always going to have to do more active pursuit. But there's a crossover point where I'd expect the man to have a much easier time than the woman getting laid.

To use a real life example -- my parents split up when each was in their early fifties. Both were fit and healthy, a little overweight but not very, and didn't look particularly old or young for their age. I expected that my father would have very little difficulty dating if he wanted to, and that my mother probably would have quite a hard time. (As it turns out, over a decade later neither has shown any interest in the opposite sex. That was clearly a worse marriage than it looked like, even to someone in the family.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:48 AM
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66, 67: So the idea is that women are more likely to have filters than do men?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:50 AM
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than are men


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:50 AM
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I think women are more likely to have filters than to do me, anyway.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:54 AM
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Heebie for the win!

Warning: What follows is entirely heteronormative. The gay scene is its whole separate thing that can be terrifying and/or lots, lots, lots of fun depending on perspective and mood. The lesbian scene is just a mystery to me, as the lesbians I know rarely talk about it.

When I reflected on this recently, pulling together the anecdata my female friends have related and my own experience as vaguely whorish individual: it seems like both genders can get reasonable amounts of casual sex, but we face different trade-offs. Whereas my female friends manage to sleep with pretty consistantly good looking guys on a whim, they end up having sex with a lot of garden variety assholes and guys who just can't handle being pleasant to someone after casual sex without either presuming a relationship or constantly reiterating that one doesn't exist. Meanwhile, I've slept with people who may not be considered as cute as me (please don't kill me for saying this, people, as I know that many others would likely disagree), everyone I've fallen into bed with has been really nice about the whole thing, and seemingly understood the whole casual sex deal better than I do.

Now, since you don't really find out about the whole "great person" thing until you start talking to people, or sometimes even until after sleeping with them, there is a heavy emphasis on an initial screen of physical attractiveness for potential partners. Given an equal attractiveness bar, a woman will probably find more willing prospects than a man, which causes the view that women have it far easier, but the trade-off comes on the back end (heh). I can't really say who has it better.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:55 AM
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73-74: yeah, I think so. And sometimes filters can get in the way even when you really want to have sex in general, your filters won't allow sex with who is available, and one experiences this as "not being able to have sex".

Of course, men have filters too. Like almost all differences between the sexes, it's an on average type thing that gets highly amplified by cultural stuff.

I think a certain type of seemingly pretty ordinary guy gets lots of women because he's just really good at disarming women's filters. Not passing them exactly, just making them seem beside the point because, hey, sex is fun and we both like each other.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:55 AM
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76 should have been to 72-73, comment numbers are screwed up today.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 9:56 AM
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71: Perhaps I'm overgeneralizing, based on being a mainstream 20-something when I was on the dating scene. Women are certainly devalued on the dating scene as they age.

For the record, I'm not under thirty.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:02 AM
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71: Yeah, things seem to reverse strongly sometime in the late 30s to 40s, due to demographic reasons (we men die early), societal reasons (men still seem to marry younger women, causing more young single guys and older single women), and potentially physiological reasons (the possibly-real, possibly-bullshit "horniness spike" in a woman's mid to late 30s). The meat market for older men and older women seems very strange and almost grotesquely unfair from a 20-something perspective.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:03 AM
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So the idea is that women are more likely to have filters than do men?

Geez. New sex toys keep popping up.

What does one do with a filter?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:08 AM
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the possibly-real, possibly-bullshit "horniness spike" in a woman's mid to late 30s

For a while I was waiting for this to improve my first marriage. It played some role in speeding its demise,


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:09 AM
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What does one do with a filter?

Make coffee afterwards.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:09 AM
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I am so out of it I have to ask - is there a dating 'scene' for, say, people over 40? From my casual observations around here it seems most of the over 40 single crowd have simply stopped dating completely. Nobody seems to try at all. Maybe my area is weird because there are so many highly educated white collar professionals, I don't know. Or maybe I am not seeing what is there.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:10 AM
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79: Yeah. What's kind of irritating about the discourse is that older women (where older starts in the late thirties or so) tend to be assumed as non-participants in the sexual marketplace (ugh. I rejected 'dating scene', but can't find a nicer phrase.) Part of the reason, it seems to me, that "Women have an easier time getting laid than men" is a truism is that "men" in that sentence includes men of all levels of attractiveness and ages from eighteen to sixty or so. "Women", on the other hand, includes mostly women of average or greater physical attractiveness under forty -- women who don't meet that standard are playing a different, and much more difficult, game. And once you're defining your terms like that, there are simply a lot more "men" than "women".


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:10 AM
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What does one do with a filter?

Strain your voice? I think they make you more pleasant when getting, shall we say, very vocal.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:12 AM
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"Women", on the other hand, includes mostly women of average or greater physical attractiveness under forty -- women who don't meet that standard are playing a different, and much more difficult, game.

I think heebie had it correctly.

For women, after 35, match.com = lots of sex
bars = not so much.

Or so it has been reported to me by my 35 plus female clients and friends.*

* Di took no part in this survey.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:14 AM
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Hrm. Are we arguing about where the crossover point is -- 35, 40, 45? or whether there is one?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:16 AM
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whether there is one.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:17 AM
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I also wonder about disclosure. Are women over 40 less likely to admit to getting laid outside a relationship?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:18 AM
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CHEATERS!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:19 AM
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89 - my sample size of one, my sister, sez her full disclosure to me has been complete all along, but she's pretty much given up on sex and relationships in the past decade or so.

She's told me she has lived alone for so long she can't imagine ever being in a relationship, and this is a person who always had boyfriends throughout her early years and was voted most likely to settle down.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:22 AM
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Okay, so you would have said the same thing about reports from your over 45 female clients and friends, or you just don't have a good enough sample in that category?

What I'm thinking here is that I've seen male friends in their late 40s and 50s date women up to ten or more years younger. I haven't seen women friends in the same age bracket dating younger, and I've seen some have a lot of trouble dating at all.

Now, I'm not talking about people looking for truly no strings attached casual don't exchange last names sex; women might have an easier time getting that online regardless of age, but I expect that most women aren't looking for that partially out of fear of encountering the kind of hostility PoMo mentions in 75. I'm talking about the sort of dating that most people do when they want to get laid.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:24 AM
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Hrm. Are we arguing about where the crossover point is -- 35, 40, 45? or whether there is one?

I'm not sure if everything flips at a certain age, but my impression (as someone off the market) is that, in their 20s, women tend to have it easier - a slightly below average appearing woman will do as well or better than an average appearing man - while, once you get into their 40s, men have it easier - basically, a still-presentable man in his 40s will do OK, whereas a woman needs to be actively good-looking to do as well.

But talking about dating/getting laid in your 40s is bringing in so many other issues - is it divorce, or is there a "reason" the person's never been married, are there kids, biological clocks - that I think it's more complicated than just societal notions of attractiveness.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:27 AM
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I haven't seen women friends in the same age bracket dating younger, and I've seen some have a lot of trouble dating at all.

FWIW, from my personal experience, once I got too old to really think about women in their 20s, I started noticing women 10 years older than me much more. Obviously all theoretical (I was married at 28), but just in terms of noticing women and thinking, "hmm."

But maybe women are more open to older men all along. I still recall being kind of stunned to arrive in HS and discover that half the freshman girls were already dating older boys. I know that's (partly) related to relative maturity issues, but it also sets up a pattern, I suspect. Me, I married older, which has worked out very nicely indeed.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:32 AM
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Now, I'm not talking about people looking for truly no strings attached casual don't exchange last names sex; women might have an easier time getting that online regardless of age, but I expect that most women aren't looking for that partially out of fear of encountering the kind of hostility PoMo mentions in 75. I'm talking about the sort of dating that most people do when they want to get laid.

I thought the discussion was sex, not dating. I agree that dating is much easier for men than women.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:33 AM
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JRoth was a boy-toy.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:34 AM
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What does one do with a filter?

If you set the threshold, gain and attack settings correctly, it filters out the horniness spikes.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:34 AM
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I thought the discussion was sex, not dating. I agree that dating is much easier for men than women.

Dating is how the vast majority of people get sex. If we're restricting the discussion to people explicitly looking for absolutely no strings attached sex, then (a) we're talking about a fairly small segment of the population, and (b) the differential in expectation of hostile treatment PoMo points out in 75 explains a great deal of it. Men are more likely to look for casual sex at least in part because a randomly selected partner is much more likely to treat them politely and pleasantly (or at least that's what I've gathered from anecdata).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:37 AM
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94, 96: Boy, one complication in this conversation is that I can't tell how old anyone is by looking at them. You can't have married much older, can you? (Question asked for rhetorical effect, I'm not expecting an answer, which would be nosy.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:38 AM
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But women will get bombarded with unacceptable proposals on Match.com, and it's her filtering process that's preventing her from getting laid, whereas men are expected to drop tons of lines in the water and hope for a bite.

I'd say pretty much any woman can get laid using match.com or something similar. Not necessarily picking someone up in a bar, though. Bars have narrow parameters.

LB:

I was responding to this question. So, yes, if we change the question, the answer will be different.

On what are you basing this statement:

"If we're restricting the discussion to people explicitly looking for absolutely no strings attached sex, then (a) we're talking about a fairly small segment of the population"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:42 AM
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JRoth,

I'm not sure, but I think LB is calling you ancient, or a grave-robber, or something like that. For the record I have always pictured you as a younger Pierce Brosnan, and address you accordingly.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:46 AM
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You people need to remember details.

JRoth lives in Pittsburgh. Therefore, he must be at least 68 years old.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:47 AM
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Dating is how the vast majority of people get sex. If we're restricting the discussion to people explicitly looking for absolutely no strings attached sex

Precisely because dating is how people get sex, lots of people use dating as a vehicle for basically few-strings-attached sex. Having dinner and waiting perhaps two dates is a way to screen for assholishness. I think what Will is getting at is that using dating this way will be easier for women.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:54 AM
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EH? WHAT'S THAT?


Posted by: OPINIONATED JROTH | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:54 AM
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FTR, ~3.5 years. It was a more noticeable differential when we met, and I had just turned 27 while she was approaching 31. Now we're just both in our late 30s, more or less.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:57 AM
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68- Threesomes are outside the scope of the current discussion. Unless there are enough toys for everyone.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:58 AM
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I think that many people (women and men) are generally happy living by themselves, but would like to get laid.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:58 AM
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For a while I was waiting for this to improve my first marriage. It played some role in speeding its demise,

You know, there are times I find myself concerned that Wrongshore is really UNG. (Then I realize Wrongshore is not a dick and it's all good again.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:59 AM
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there are times I find myself concerned that Wrongshore is really UNG.

This is a ploy to get Wrongshore to prove to you that he is not ugly when naked, isnt it?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:00 AM
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75 makes me think that a big part of men's filtering comes in the area of trying to ascertain how weird a particular woman is going to be about casual sex after the fact. Anyway, it's my new explanation for why I'm not getting laid.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:12 AM
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For women, after 35, match.com = lots of sex
bars = not so much.

Or so it has been reported to me by my 35 plus female clients and friends.*

* Di took no part in this survey.

Yeah, my experience is to the contrary.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:19 AM
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111: Please to explain to us how you are so successful in obtaining lots of sex in bars?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:23 AM
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I had just turned 27 while she was approaching 31. Now we're just both in our late 30s, more or less.

textbook case of denial. It's *mathematically impossible* for both of you to be in your late 30s.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:27 AM
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112: Beer goggles.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:29 AM
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It's *mathematically impossible* for both of you to be in your late 30s.

Not if you deny the existence of the "mid 30s."

Actually, I realized as I wrote that comment that I've so completely accepted where I am in life that I assigned myself to the late 30s even though I'm 35 for the better part of another week.

As I said, the distinctions seemed a lot brighter when I was in my late-mid-20s.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:39 AM
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the distinctions seemed a lot brighter when I was in my late-mid-20s.

Failing eyesight is a sure sign you're getting older.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:41 AM
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Di is hot as hell (and great in bed), but doesn't she seem like she'd be weird about casual sex after the fact?

Good thing I've got my handy fleshlight....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:41 AM
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107 is the cause of a lot of pathetic, loveless relationships. Why do we need to be attached to someone just to get laid? It makes one feel disingenuous. Or, as in my case, I feel like I'm being sucked into some situation in which I reluctantly make larger and larger sacrifices of my autonomy for someone who demands them, despite my preference for a less emotionally heated acquaintance, and then they shit all over me and break my heart.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:41 AM
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112: Table dances.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:42 AM
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Why do we need to be attached to someone just to get laid?

Yr doin it rong.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:42 AM
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117: Every word of 117 is true.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:43 AM
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Why do we need to be attached to someone just to get laid?

Otherwise, I keep slipping out, and that's more distracting than the bungee cords.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:44 AM
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120: Technically, I don't think being attached to something counts as "get[ting] laid", JRoth.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:45 AM
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Why do we need to be attached to someone just to get laid?

More seriously, I just don't see how it's going to work otherwise, unless you're willing to accept long dryspells or some seriously dubious hookups. The 3 months between when I moved out from Old, Bad GF and when AB & I became exclusive, I was active as hell in trying to strike something up with someone - I was as outgoing as I've ever been, and I'm pretty sure without coming on too strong or desperate. But, with one giant exception, it was no dice.

Now arguably, this resulted from what you're talking about - people being too relationship-centric, and so not wanting to do anything in a non-relationship context. But I can only think of 1 or 2 instances where that was a likely factor. Otherwise, I'm looking at months of nothing, despite a fair amount of effort - suddenly, a relationship doesn't seem so bad.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:56 AM
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Every word of 117.1 is true.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:57 AM
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Why does today's culture view women who own vibrators as empowered and sexually confident but men who own similar sexual aids as lonely losers?

Because we're operating in a context in which women are still expected to be the sexual prudes and there's an entire industry of porn catering to men.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:58 AM
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Every word of 124.2 is also true.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:59 AM
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112: Leather bars.

FWIW I appreciate everything about the butt plug except the name.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:01 PM
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And actually, my only other real period of being out there aggressively was in college, and (therefore?) much more successful, but it was still kind of tiring. I was having fun but, by the end of the semester, when Bad Old GF-to-be gave me an ultimatum - no more sex without exclusivity - I acquiesced*.

That mostly betrays my tendencies, but I think it says something about the comparative effort of maintaining a relationship vs. finding a new lay every week or two.

* And even tho it goes without saying, I still feel the need to say, what a fucking mistake that was. Trust your gut, kids.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:03 PM
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B!

I don't actually understand the intended causality in 126 at all.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:05 PM
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128: I love leather, but I'm weird about it after the fact.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:08 PM
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So, everyone seems to accept the premise that today's culture views women who own vibrators as empowered. I'm a little surprised. I'm pretty sure 90% of my neighbors and at least 50% of my friends would be scandalized by the thought.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:11 PM
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I love leather, but I'm weird about it after the fact.

Entirely understandable - it's a bitch to clean.

This is yet another way in which experienced homemakers are disadvantaged in the romantic marketplace - I bet people in their 20s don't even worry about proper fabric care for their leathergear.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:12 PM
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I've tried the fleshlight and found it to be not so great. It's a production to use and clumsy. You need to soak the liner in hot water before use in order to avoid the impression you're fucking a corpse.

Much better are the simple knobbly rubber sleeve dealies.

One of the problems with male sex toys (can't speak for the laydeez) is that warmth is a huge part of the sensory equation when having real sex. Putting a heater on a sex toy runs the risk of malfunction, and you better believe a jury is going to side with they guy who got his dick fried, not matter what warning labels were on the device.


Posted by: Herbert Hoover | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:12 PM
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132: Maybe you should consider moving to a decadent coastal enclave.

Maybe KR can tell us whether, in PDBS, do they display their sex toys in the living room, or just discuss them at cocktail parties.

More seriously, it's maybe a bit like pot (or like pot was 10 years ago) - completely unsurprising across wide swaths of the populace, utterly shocking across other swaths. The question is what is the dominant attitude once you eliminate the easily-scandalized.

Yesterday I overheard AB reading some Little House to Iris, and Ma and Pa are railing against demon rum: "Two saloons in town is two too many." Surely the first anti-liquor words Iris has ever heard, yet there are dry towns right here in SW PA.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:17 PM
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Dry towns are funny.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:20 PM
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Dry towns are funny no laughing matter.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:23 PM
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||
Any of the Austin-area peeps gonna be around next week? Magpie and I will be in town for turkey-related activities (plus the weekend).
|>


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:31 PM
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Dry towns are funny no laughing matter serious business.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:32 PM
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to avoid the impression you're fucking a corpse

Why would you want to do that?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:32 PM
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I remember watching a western as a kid, and in attesting to how upstanding and right-thinking the new sherriff in town was, people kept saying "and he doesn't drink". My young self was puzzled as to how it was possible for anyone to live without occasionally partaking of some water or other liquid, and about why being thirsty all the time should be considered virtuous.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:32 PM
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Why does today's culture view women who own vibrators as empowered and sexually confident but men who own similar sexual aids as lonely losers?

Do we need an explanation here? As far as I can see, today's culture has it about right on this one - if as in so many other things the conventional wisdom was wildly at odds with reality (ie, there were loads of really happy and well-adjusted men who owned Fleshlights) then we'd need a theory, but the empirics stack up here - there's no error to explain.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:35 PM
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You need to soak the liner in hot water before use in order to avoid the impression you're fucking a corpse.

or alternatively, to store it in the fridge for an hour, mutatis mutandis.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:37 PM
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I think that, between ages 22 to 35, more people are thinking about having kids. So sex without a relationship is low on the scale.

After 35, you are jaded, often divorced, horny, not living with your parents, and don't expect members of the opposite sex to have 4 to 6 percent body fat.

Thus, more random hookups.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:42 PM
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You better believe a jury is going to side with they guy who got his dick fried, not matter what warning labels were on the device.

The poor guy could also expect tremendous Bobbit-level support from the tabloids.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:47 PM
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Dry towns are funny no laughing matter serious business.

Darn tootin'.


Posted by: Carrie Nation | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:49 PM
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142: Good thing that conventional wisdom doesn't shape social reality at all.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:51 PM
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Responding to the question in 100: Anecdata, what else. Although "small segment of the population" was probably the wrong way to put it if we're talking about what people have ever done lifetime -- "only a small percentage of the sex being sought out there is explictly NSA" is more what I meant. What I was saying, contra 103, is that while a woman of any age might be successful with a Craigslist ad saying "Fuck me and get out. I don't want to know your last name," there's an age level after which a woman putting up an ad saying "Let's have dinner and see what happens" is going to start running into a dearth of opportunities. Admittedly, my evidence for this is also anecdata.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:51 PM
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....don't expect members of the opposite sex to have 4 to 6 percent body fat.

I always put "7-8% body fat OK" in my ads. I make out like a bandit, of course, though when I put them to the test they're usually in the 8-12% range. I don't make a big deal about that, though. I just remind them now and then, at strategic moments.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 12:52 PM
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I think Sifu's point in 16 and jroth's point in 135 are important. They show that the double standard that says sex toys are empowering for women and shameful for men comes from a weird mixing of conservative and progressive images of sexuality. And this weird mix is actually most likely to be found among the sort of people who read unfogged--educated, left leaning, & novelty seeking.

For large swaths of the population, a woman with a dildo is a slut and a harlot. More liberal types only see a woman with a dildo as empowering because she is standing up to those who would call her a harlot (as per 16). Sometimes we forget this origin, and start to think that empowered sexuality is the norm, which is why sometimes we think of "frigid" as an insult (as in 53) and sometimes as a social demand (as in 126). So at least one side of the double standard is a product of a limited liberalism.

What about the other side? To accept the idea that sex toys and masturbation aids are shameful for men you need to assume that pornography doesn't count. If it did, than masturbation aids would be ten times more acceptable for men than women. Yet a lot of us right here seem to make this assumption. Some of this is the different connotations of "sex toy" and "masturbation aid" but a lot of it also comes from the fact that male promiscuity is given a pass. If it is put in the open it needs to be condemned. The same people who would call a woman with a vibrator a slut would condemn a man with an extensive pornography collection if put face to face with it. But if it is done privately, it gets a wink and a nod. The wink and nod part of the double standard can be picked up by liberals. We take for granted that lots of men watch lots of porn, but don't really worry about it. Thus many people here, as well, assumed that pornography doesn't count as a sex toy.

What does count a sex toy? Well all that weird stuff that we, as novelty seekers who love Apo's posts, love to laugh at. Real Dolls. Fursuits. Because we laugh at these people, we assume that sex toys are degrading for men.

So yeah, the double standard is only held by a limited part of the population, but that portion is mostly us.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:05 PM
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Admittedly, my evidence for this is also anecdata.

You probably just need a more flattering picture, or maybe something about how much you love moonlit walks on the beach.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:07 PM
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Maybe a more femmy sounding pseudonym? I've been getting all these emails from men talking about how excited they are by dead bugs.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:09 PM
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152: How about "Lizardbreathless"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:11 PM
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I'm sure Mr. DeLay is really much nicer than those mean old Democrats say.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:12 PM
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I've been getting all these emails from men talking about how excited they are by dead bugs.

Sigh. These days, I'd settle for that.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:12 PM
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153, on the other hand, sounds like you're looking for someone to Heimlich a gecko loose.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:13 PM
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155: Does "You'll be happy to know that I think I finally got rid of that persistent case of crabs! Laydeez." count?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:15 PM
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You know, characterizing a gecko as "loose" is terribly sexist. That gecko is probably just free-spirited and in tune with her sexuality.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:15 PM
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158: As long as she keeps the bug population down, she can do what she wants. Sorry, Di.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:17 PM
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Admittedly, my evidence for this is also anecdata.

Then, we fall back to my question of disclosure. Are many of your female acquaintances going to tell you that they have or would be willing to have sex outside of relationships.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:18 PM
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You know, characterizing a gecko as "loose" is terribly sexist. That gecko is probably just free-spirited and in tune with her sexuality.

That made me laugh out loud.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:18 PM
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Sure. I think we're crossing wires here, though. I'm counting sex with an acquaintance, or after some social contact which was not explicitly defined as a prelude to sex, as 'dating' rather than as "explicitly NSA". So I'm including in 'dating' women looking for sex outside of the context of a committed relationship.

That came out unintelligible -- to put it another way, my anecdata isn't women holding out for a long term relationship, and complaining that they can't find anyone willing to commit to them. It's women having trouble finding someone to go out for drinks with and maybe screw.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:24 PM
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150 is very good comment. I agree entirely.

Early in the thread I was going to say something like "Well, among people who think that it's actually a good thing for women to be assertive in their sexuality, a woman who uses masturbation aids is seen as cool and empowered. But obviously those people, though we are among them, are not a majority in the entire country."

Also, among people like us, we have the impression that masturbation can be better than actual sex for women, but it's a poor second to actual sex for men.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:26 PM
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but it's a poor second to actual sex for men.

Do you really believe this? Is this the consensus in this thread? Some of my own best sexual experiences have been alone, and some with another person. Thinking back on a couple of conversations, one close male friend said sex with someone else is always better for him, while another said masturbation is by far better (and he was quite successful with the laydeez).


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:30 PM
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my anecdata isn't women holding out for a long term relationship, and complaining that they can't find anyone willing to commit to them. It's women having trouble finding someone to go out for drinks with and maybe screw

I am LB's anecdata.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:30 PM
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I said "we have the impression".

You know, the cultural consensus. I've never heard a gender-reversed equivalent of the whole "LOL if vibrators could mow the lawn, men would be useless" thing.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:31 PM
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Sorry, Nid, I was unclear about the scope of your qualifier.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:33 PM
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It's women having trouble finding someone to go out for drinks with and maybe screw

Someone who passes through their filter, that is.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:34 PM
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I've never heard a gender-reversed equivalent of the whole "LOL if vibrators could mow the lawn, men would be useless" thing.

There's George Costanza's "If I had breasts, I'd never leave the house."


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:34 PM
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I always put "7-8% body fat OK" in my ads. I make out like a bandit, of course, though when I put them to the test they're usually in the 8-12% range. I don't make a big deal about that, though. I just remind them now and then, at strategic moments.

Wow, you continue seeing them after you find out they were lying? I pick up all my dates in my Mobile Hydrostatic Wellness Lab, which allows me combine body fat testing and transportation to the restaurant in just one vehicle. If the woman is more than the measurement error of the system greater than 8%, I just turn around and go home.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:34 PM
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I suppose this sounds defensive in the context of 150, but it never really occurred to me that dildo=fleshlight=Hustler. I don't see anything in the original post, the linked articles, or the initial comments that suggests porn is germane.

I would consider the general consensus here to be that masturbating is fine for everyone, dildos and vibrators and buttplugs are also fine, and fleshlights and RealDolls are creepy. Porn probably goes in the conditionally-fine category, for reasons of conscience, not morality or gender bias.

It's probably true that the larger world has a different set of standards, one that is more uniformly anti-women's pleasure, but that's neither here nor there.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:36 PM
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It's women having trouble finding someone to go out for drinks with and maybe screw.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

I got married young. After I got separated (age 31), it took me a little while before I realized that a casual female acquaintance might actually be (or probably was) interested in having sex with me that night when she said "let's meet up for drinks tonight."

I was totally clueless. Women might want sex without dating? Seriously? No Freakin' Way!!!! What an amazing new world. Women actually might think in similar ways to men? I had no idea. (And I was the son of a very liberal obgyn.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:37 PM
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"LOL if vibrators could mow the lawn, men would be useless"

"If I could get a blowjob from my lawnmower . . ."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:45 PM
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it took me a little while before I realized that a casual female acquaintance might actually be (or probably was) interested in having sex with me that night when she said "let's meet up for drinks tonight."

Hmmm, I suppose that makes some sense. There's a guy who I will have drinks with from time to time, who has no problem telling me he finds me attractive, who has no problem telling me that he thinks we'd be great together in bed, who is well aware that I am attracted to him, too, and who quite clearly is never going to make a move unless I were to flat out say, "Hey! Let's go have some sex now, 'kay?"

(It would be a completely bad idea, of course -- ergo my attraction.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:46 PM
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A very short post that is Unfogged-worthy.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:49 PM
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There's George Costanza's "If I had breasts, I'd never leave the house."

Not to mention, "Why do dogs lick themselves?"

I'd say that the general cliche is more along the lines that men masturbate more or less nonstop from adolescence, but always in lieu of an actual female, whereas women masturbate later, after discovering that sex with men isn't all that great.

The slightly more thoughtful version is along the lines that partner sex is at least as good as, if not better than, masturbation for men, whereas the reverse is true for women. Some of the latter is tied to cultural things about male selfishness and insecurity, but also good old physiology - effectively all men can get off through nothing but vaginal intercourse, whereas some significant portion of women can never get off that way.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:50 PM
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"If I could get a blowjob from my lawnmower . . ."

Don't try it, M/tch!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:51 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:51 PM
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There's a guy who I will have drinks with from time to time, who has no problem telling me he finds me attractive, who has no problem telling me that he thinks we'd be great together in bed, who is well aware that I am attracted to him, too, and who quite clearly is never going to make a move

Your standard for "move" may be a little high.

"So we're back at his place and he's going down on me, and I"m thinking, 'Is he going to make a move or what?'"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:53 PM
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It's women having trouble finding someone to go out for drinks with and maybe screw.

In this economy, it's only going to get worse... laydeez:

According to a new survey by Prince & Assoc., more than 80% of multimillionaires who had extra-marital lovers planned to cut back on their gifts and allowances. Still, only 12% of the multimillionaire cheaters said they plan to give up on their lovers altogether for financial reasons.

Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:54 PM
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The slightly more thoughtful version is along the lines that partner sex is at least as good as, if not better than, masturbation for men, whereas the reverse is true for women.

I've been accused a time or two of not fitting the norms for my gender, so maybe I'm just an outlier on this one. Do other women seriously see this statement as true?!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:55 PM
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I was totally clueless.

Evidence.*

* I've been holding onto that link since March - can you believe it hasn't been relevant here in all that time? You should see my backlog of swimming links.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:56 PM
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We have our office Christmas party this weekend. We held it a little bit later in the year two years ago. Afterwards I went home with a guy I met in a bar towards the end of the night. I thought he was about eight or nine years younger but some months later found out he was more like fifteen years younger. That's the last time I had sex.


Posted by: Mary Robinson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:57 PM
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BTW, followup to the link in 182, which at a glance looks like totally standard gender norm-reinforcement: not only do men tend to interpret friendly smiles as come-ons, but they also interpret come-ons as friendly smiles - they're simply not calibrated correctly to the cues.

I'm sure you can poke a million holes in the study, but it's not absurd on its face.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:59 PM
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"So we're back at her place and she's going down on me, and I"m thinking, 'Is she going to make a move or what?'"

This was me. Now, I definitely know that when a woman is giving me a bj, she might be interested in considering having sex with me!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:59 PM
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183 is Presidential because "Mary" is 24.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 1:59 PM
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I've been accused a time or two of not fitting the norms for my gender, so maybe I'm just an outlier on this one. Do other women seriously see this statement as true?!

Not I! I'm far from being my own favorite sex partner.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:00 PM
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Her husband found out and now I am heartbroken. There's no one to talk to (discretion) and there'd be nothing to say anyway.


Posted by: Millard Fillmore | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:00 PM
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181: That sounded odd to me, and so did Bave's 164. On the other hand, I haven't had a lot of lousy partnered sex -- might that account for it? I might buy a claim that men would be more likely to prefer partnered sex to masturbation regardless of how good or bad the partnered sex was, while women would find masturbation preferable if the partnered sex was bad enough? Maybe?

That still doesn't explain Bave, though.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:01 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:02 PM
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You should've taunted him at the party, Millard.

Discretion is sometimes the worst policy.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:03 PM
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while women would find masturbation preferable if the partnered sex was bad enough?

I think this is more-or-less the premise. Combine, frex, a woman who can't get off from penetrative sex with a guy who's either a jerk (won't do other things) or simply not very good at oral (or with his hands), and she's better off home alone.

Obvs., she's mostly better off with a better lover, but it's not as if your Craig's List ad can (usefully) say that - "Good lovers only. Fatties OK."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:07 PM
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181, 187: Yeah, not true for moi non plus.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:08 PM
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while women would find masturbation preferable if the partnered sex was bad enough

Well, sure. I will readily admit that I preferred masturbation to UNG. But even then, I got tired enough of me after awhile that he occasionally got some.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:08 PM
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I can't decide if it's the one-night stand or the dry spell since then that I find more embarrassing. I think I'm afflicted with both the stupid standard that I should be in a relationship to have sex and the stupid standard that not having any is lame.


Posted by: Mary Robinson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:08 PM
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That still doesn't explain Bave, though.

I was a bit surprised at that one as well. Occasionally masturbation has seemed like a better pleasure/effort option, but basically never preferable on the merits.

Perhaps if I had a Fleshlight....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:09 PM
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Bad sex is certainly not fun. Unfulfilling masturbation, well, at least you can just stop and go do something else. (But no! This is not the case if you have some kind of compulsive element going on that makes you unhappy. Surely it's possible to have glum, depressing episodes of masturbation, too?)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:09 PM
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Unpartnered sex is easier to schedule.

108 is awesome. Di, I'm ever so curious...do I describe my ex in terms that you think UNG talks about you?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:09 PM
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women masturbate later, after discovering that sex with men isn't all that great.

speak for yourself, buddy.

The slightly more thoughtful version is along the lines that partner sex is at least as good as, if not better than, masturbation for men, whereas the reverse is true for women.

I think partner sex is better than masturbation for everybody, but maybe that's just because one is rarer than the other. Bottom line, partner sex does things masturbation just can't, so they're not easily comparable as "better" or "worse". Masturbation doesn't scratch the itch of being without partner sex. But as I think about it, the reverse is probably true too...if I had to be without masturbation I'd probably think longingly about it while having sex at times.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:10 PM
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urely it's possible to have glum, depressing episodes of masturbation, too?

Can someone else respond to this? I'm too busy masturbating, masturbating, crying, and masturbating....


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:12 PM
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The link in 182 is one of my favorite extremely non-detailed articles.

I can honestly say that I have never had any idea whether or not a female peer found me attractive or not, unless we had already been on several dates together. "Signals" do not exist, simple as that, as far as I can tell. This means I'm pretty unconcerned with whether or not I am sending out "signals" that indicate my interest in a woman, since the idea of someone actually decoding these signals (unintentional or not) sounds a bit uncanny or unfair.


Posted by: Cryptec Nid | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:12 PM
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if I had to be without masturbation I'd probably think longingly about it while having sex at times.

"OK, now stand behind me, reach around, and be quiet."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:13 PM
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do I describe my ex in terms that you think UNG talks about you?

There's that -- your comment that you were wondering if that mid-30s sex drive was ever going to kick in fits that standard.

There are also weird biographical/timing overlaps -- your divorce seems to have been roughly at the same time. Then you announced an engagement and I got wind of an engagement and so on. And then I remember that plenty of other details are way off.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:14 PM
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You try not being so damn cryptic, Ned.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:14 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:14 PM
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"could"

damn.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:15 PM
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201: Flag semaphore is my preferred method for sending out signals.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:15 PM
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Your standard for "move" may be a little high.

Haven't we had the discussion before that there's a power dynamic at play in who has to be the first to abandon plausible deniability -- it's possible to make any number of "moves" that are simultaneously clear and still allow for room to say "I wasn't serious" if the other person rejects you.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:16 PM
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But even then, I got tired enough of me after awhile that he occasionally got some.

I am reminded of the crass saying that "for every hot woman, there is a guy who is tired of f'ing her."


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:16 PM
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208: "You are so cute! But seriously, I don't think of you that waggh gllgg mmmph."


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:17 PM
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Don't worry Wrongshore. I'm pretty sure ToS is UNG.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:17 PM
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Surely it's possible to have glum, depressing episodes of masturbation, too?

You mean there's another way?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:20 PM
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The study described in 182 makes me wonder if the results are even vaguely applicable to real-world interactions. I am dreadful at reading expressions in photos, to a rather remarkable degree. But while I've had my share of misunderstood-moments in real life, I'm generally a lot more comfortable interpreting what's going on.

So cut those poor college guys some slack, I'm saying.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:22 PM
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201: Flag semaphore is my preferred method for sending out signals.

It's an expressive medium.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:22 PM
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That still doesn't explain Bave, though.

When you figure this out, let me know.

I'd say maybe I'm doing it wrong, but really I rank some solo and some partnered experiences right up there, with plenty of times in both category clocking in as something less than spectacular. I think that rather than being bad at partnered sex, I'm just good at (or particularly open to the pleasures of) jerking off.

I'm a bit more puzzled at my friend for whom masturbation was preferable to intercourse, but I could also understand where he was coming from. He said he knew exactly how to give himself the best orgasms and had been with enough women that there was absolutely no novelty factor left.

I figure, different strokes...


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:23 PM
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my friend for whom masturbation was preferable to intercourse, but I could also understand where he was coming from

Somewhere between the palm of his hand and his fingertips, presumably.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:31 PM
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had been with enough women that there was absolutely no novelty factor left.

Yes, well. Some people have all the problems.

I've certainly had some very pleasurable, uh, self-pleasure, but still, ceteris paribus, I'll take a partner every time.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:34 PM
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I think I'm afflicted with both the stupid standard that I should be in a relationship to have sex and the stupid standard that not having any is lame.

Sounds like you're ready for the Emerson Plan.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:38 PM
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217: There's always the middle way.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:39 PM
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Masturbation doesn't scratch the itch of being without partner sex.

It certainly does help out though. When I'm not in a relationship, and don't have someone I particularly want to call on a regular basis, a little bit o' self-love takes the edge off the 1-2 month dry spells that easily result.

That 11 month dry spell was still a killer though.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:44 PM
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Mrs. Robinson -- it helps to just think of such things as very, very short term relationships. "We met, it was great, but then we realized it was never going to work out."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:44 PM
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||

Dow closes below 8,000. Apo wins.

|>


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:45 PM
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The more I think about this, the more I think it's just a QWERTY effect and a simple accident of history, like women rather than men wearing skirts in Western countries. Someone way back when stigmatised male masturbation as "ick" and female masturbation as "wow" and popular culture just picked up the ball and ran with it. What one really needs is a new role model to shock us all out of our rut, as when Cary Grant appeared in film without an undershirt, or President Kennedy made it OK for men to not wear hats. I bet that if Barack Obama were to allow himself to regularly be filmed masturbating into a Fleshlight, they'd overnight become de rigeur.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:50 PM
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had been with enough women that there was absolutely no novelty factor left.

sounds like a lousy lover, or at least not a very present one. That's like saying you've talked to enough people that there's no novelty factor left in listening any more.

Actually, that last might happen to me eventually...except I'm getting bored with what I have to say at about the same rate as I am with other people.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:52 PM
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222 - Just a few minutes ago I accidentally saw my 401K balance while making my selections for next year's health care costs. Ouch. I really shouldn't have done that. Nope. I knew it was low but there is something about seeing the number on the page that makes it tangible.

Still I suppose relatively cheap travel over the holidays because of the slump in gas prices is a good thing. I should be able to visit more friends and family.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 2:54 PM
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||

Does anyone else have the experience of looking for something that you thought you knew where it was but, no matter how many times you look there it still refuses to be in the place you thought it was?

|>


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:05 PM
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181: Add me to the list agreeing with you. Exhusband #1 was, shall we put it diplomatically, untalented in the sexual arena, but it was fun to romp anteclimatically.

Has anyone else seen the BBC documentary of guys who are in love enamoured unhealthily fixated on their Real Dolls? [Or have we discussed this here before? I'm not willing to search...] It's that sort of thing that validates the male stereotype of masturbation aid user = loser.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:06 PM
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226: If you ask the right way, most women are usually happy to give you a little guidance.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:11 PM
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Does anyone else have the experience of looking for something that you thought you knew where it was but,

This is a good example of a sentence that looks wrong though I don't know precisely how to capture the error; something like a reduplication of the subject ("that you thought you knew where it was").


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:13 PM
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227: There's also a charming Swedish comedy on this theme, Lars and the Real Girl.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:15 PM
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a sentence that looks wrong though I don't know precisely how to capture the error

I had that feeling writing it as well.

On the bright side, I have now found two other things that are not what I was looking for but that are handy to have found.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:15 PM
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228 is funny.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:16 PM
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"that they thought they knew the location of"?


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:17 PM
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231 combines with 228 like gin with tonic.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:17 PM
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228 is funny.

Yeah, too true. What is going on Di, are you having a good day? You've been the life of the party today.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:20 PM
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Does anyone else have the experience of looking for something the whereabouts of which you thought you knew? wd be my rewrite

However were I writing it myself [slips into caps and stuff to help convince the suspicious ] I attempt the following, and see if they went with it: Does anyone else have the experience of looking for something the where of which you thought you knew?

the heartbreaking yet very funny moment in the BBC RealDolls doc came after the final credits: re the guy who'd seemingly persuaded his new GF (albeit gingerly) to share space and meals w/his two (or more) RealDolls...

Cue perfectly timed voiceover: "since this programme was made, [new GF] has decided to stop seeing [guy with two or more RealDolls]'"



Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:27 PM
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235: I kind of am having a good day, actually. Thanks for noticing! (For all my grumbling, I actually might have a prospect on the horizon -- other than and/or in addition to my clueless drinking buddy -- and the mere hope of someday leaving me for someone better is uplifting!)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:28 PM
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For all my grumbling, I actually might have a prospect on the horizon

I wouldn't get all crushed out on Tripp just yet. You never know with these long-distance internet connections. He could be married, or really ugly, or possibly both.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:33 PM
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better still: Who else here knows the howsoever of seeking that the where of which you thought you knew?


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:33 PM
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236: And the RealDolls were being bitchy, and during sex they would just lie there and occasionally ask "Are you done yet"?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:37 PM
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Where is the which of the what she did?


Posted by: C'Mell | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:37 PM
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236: Women may have joked replacing men with lawn-mowing vibrators, but some men really have just replaced women with silicon toys.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:40 PM
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As per above, it's still scandalous in liberal enclave Park Slope that Babeland just moved in. Seriously, quite a few people are throwing a hissy fit, even though it's not on a major street or anything. It's a classy shop, nothing visible from the street. And yet.

Also, I would far rather have sex than masturbate. Even if the sex isn't orgasmic, it's more satisfying, and I can masturbate later if I want to. I like being with other people. But since I very rarely have access to sex partners, masturbation is fine, often even very good. But it doesn't satisfy; I still feel grumpily hard-up afterward.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:42 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:44 PM
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236: That guy was disturbing. Even the creepy gun-nut guy in the trailer in the woods--you could tell he considered his real doll a sort of partner, or companion. The last guy owned like seven of them, most of which were disassembled and sticking out of boxes in the garage because he hadn't gotten them "repaired" (apparently they suffer from regular vaginal blowout if subjected to rough treatment), and they were all the clown-boob model with tiny tanktops half-heartedly pulled down over their naked mons. The rest of the guys, I really thought had interesting relationships with their dolls, but that guy. (shudder)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:46 PM
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PGD - for the record I am married - and faithful, for over 26 years now. I find that frees me up to enjoy fun people with no guilt.

I don't think I'm hideous, but I've said openly that I am not good looking enough to be a professional actor or I'd already be one, living the wild life with some star or other. Instead I pound the keyboard and rely on my smarts to bring home the bacon.

So - married, not hollywood good looking, yeah, there I am, true enough.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:46 PM
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See, Di? You dodged a bullet.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:52 PM
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247 -- Thanks PGD. Good to know you've got my back!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 3:59 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 4:06 PM
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I think this is the whole BBC doc.

http://www.videosift.com/video/BBC-Documentary-Guys-and-RealDolls

Whatever it takes to get hrough the night, I guess.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:41 PM
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Could guys who have entire fantasy relationships with silicone dolls just have better imaginations than the rest of us?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 7:54 PM
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251: For suitably weighted values of "better' maybe.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:23 PM
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Roughly comments 83 - 103: Wow, I sort of wish I'd been around for this thread. Then again, not. Dating as an over-40 woman doesn't really generalize.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 8:55 PM
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I am reminded of the crass saying that "for every hot woman, there is a guy who is tired of f'ing her."

I actually like this saying, because it always reminds me of how much of male sexuality is the pursuit of variety, novelty, and conquest, all of which are ultimately unsatisfying. So bringing this saying to mind has sort of centering zen-type effect for me.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 10:59 PM
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because it always reminds me of how much of male sexuality is the pursuit of variety, novelty, and conquest, all of which are ultimately unsatisfying.

Like everything else in this hollow world.

The thirst
the sea gives woke in him.
He hated dry land's air.
The ghosts of the Hesperides
troubled his sleep at night.
Nostalgia for the voyage hurt
him everywhere, and for morning
arrivals in harbors that you enter,
with such joy, for the first time.

The affection of Telemachus, the faith
of Penelope, the father's old age,
his old friends, the devoted
subjects' love,
and the peace and repose
of home bored him.
And he left.

Gradually, while the shores of Ithaca
vanished in the way before him
and he set all sails west,
to Iberia, to the Pillars of Hercules,—
far from every Achaian sea,—
he felt he was alive again, that
he head cast aside the heavy bonds
of known, of household things.
And his adventuring heart
exulted in cold and vacant love.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:21 PM
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254 -- Don't forget the other guy, who is creepily stalking her! This is why it sucks to be a hot chick.

In most respects I'm as superficial as they come, but one of the weirdest things about being a guy over 30 or so is realizing that sleeping with multiple attracive women actually isn't the promised land you were told about at 15 -- it's more like present day Israel, tacky, cheap, and full of interminable and confusing conflict. Or, what AWB said earlier.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-08 11:25 PM
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255:

That's rather beautiful. Do you know who the translator is? I've read some of Cavafy's other stuff and haven't been thrilled with the translation, but that one works well for me.


Posted by: DL | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 1:35 AM
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Hey, PGD, whatever became of the girl from the train?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 2:03 AM
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258: turns out she prefers her vibrator.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 2:34 AM
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223: Cary Grant appeared in film without an undershirt, or President Kennedy made it OK for men to not wear hats.

Clark Gable, I believe, in It Happened One Night. And Kennedy did in fact wear a hat at his inauguration.

A better example would be chloroform use during childbirth - the 19th century British medical establishment was against it on moral grounds (childbirth was meant to be painful because of the Curse of Eve etc) until Queen Victoria said "We are THE GODDAMN QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND EMPRESS OF INDIA AND MONARCH OF THE MIGHTIEST EMPIRE THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN and if We are going to have to give birth to like 37 kids then you will give Us THE FINEST NARCOTICS AVAILABLE TO HUMANITY as soon as We damn well ask for them." At that point, the 19th century British medical establishment decided, sweating slightly, that anaesthetics during childbirth were absolutely fine.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 7:14 AM
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258: sigh. Too long to go into here. Let's just say it was an extremely passionate and intense but short (3 week?) affair. I've been having more of those lately, it's a bad sign. Maybe I should try again with her, our breakup was weird.

I second the request for a bibliographic reference for 255.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 9:43 AM
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261: Sorry to hear that. Please report in compromising, invasive detail if you get things re-started.

260: I didn't know they used chloroform, though of course it makes sense. I like to think of the nurse replaced by a Dick-Tracy-vintage fiend who sneaks up behind the mother and holds a rag over her face until she passes out. Then again for the squalling newborn.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 9:52 AM
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I'm with Bave in 164. The way I've explained it is that solo-time scratches a different itch.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 9:54 AM
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255 comes from this edition, trans. Theoharis C. Theoharis. The text is from the unpublished "A Second Odyssey", though I didn't include the first four stanzas (one of which is a single line) as I didn't want to give the game away straight off.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 10:00 AM
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Thank god, mrh. I was afraid this thread would leave me the Mad Wanker of the Mineshaft.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 10:22 AM
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265: like that's such a bad thing.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 10:31 AM
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I'm the Happy Wanker of the Mineshaft. I don't know what Bave's problem is.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 10:32 AM
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262: yep; another great Scottish invention (there's a plaque in St Giles High Kirk in Edinburgh that just reads, in a very heartfelt and sincere font, "THANK GOD FOR JAMES YOUNG SIMPSON'S DISCOVERY OF CHLOROFORM IN 1859".

I notice that both this and the douchesuit thread are now about painkillers. Hurrah!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 12:44 PM
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264:

Thanks.

The other translation that I read lacked the same power; particularly when it comes to these lines:

and for morning
arrivals in harbors that you enter,
with such joy, for the first time.

I think they were rendered something like, happy to enter into harbor in the morning, which, really completely obscures the sexual. For me, at any rate.


Posted by: DL | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 1:11 PM
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241: Hid the bell with a blot, she did,
But she fell in love with a hominid.


Posted by: Mr Smith | Link to this comment | 11-20-08 2:43 PM
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