I really didn't grasp how much of one's day would be spent nursing.
So you've finally latched on to that concept, huh? Hope it doesn't suck too bad. I'm glad you're expressing yourself here though. Just don't try to milk too much sympathy out of us. That's a formula for disaster.
The nursing will continue until morale improves.
2 made me burp up all over myself.
Today Jammies goes back to work
s/b "rests at his place of employment."
I really didn't grasp how much of one's day would be spent nursing.
Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 4-09 6:57 AM
If Unfogged's timestamps were on EST, 6:57 a.m. would be very early to make any conclusions about the way much of one's day would be spent. But Unfogged isn't on EST, right? Isn't it two or three hours behind? I'll find out when this comments. But regardless, that just means it's even earlier. Sooo... apparently HP has been keeping you up for a while.
Poopy diapers: 2
Heebie getting to
- brush teeth: 0
- get dressed: 0
- get cup of coffee: 0
No, that just means it's even later, duh. Never mind. I'm trying to cut back on coffee, but apparently it's impairing my mental faculties.
Crying for five minutes while you brush your teeth, etc., won't hurt her. (It took me a while to understand this one myself -- it was really needing to pee one day while Sally was being unrelentingly needy that got me over the hump. I was trying to figure out if I should carry her into the bathroom with me and hold her while I peed, and then a light went off and I realized "Huh. For the three minutes this will take me, lying in her crib won't do her a bit of harm.")
9: That's true, although it's also not all that hard to carry her with you while you pee. (Speaking as a man. I understand women pee differently, so maybe it's more complicated.) Or to brush your teeth. Showering is much trickier, and I do think there you're going to have to either way for Jammies to come home or just let her cry for a few minutes. (Which, if it doesn't kill her, will in the end make her stronger.)
LB is right. I had a similar revelation while night nursing (having to pee, finally just popping the baby off to get up and pee, only to see him roll over and fall right asleep, and realizing, wait a minute, he doesn't *need* to be nursing all night). That said, you should get one of these: http://www.kangarookorner.com/ In fact, you probably already have one, but you need to start using it now to get HP used to it. It makes simple tasks such as getting up to get some coffee so much easier. I have, in fact, peed while holding a baby in a sling (public restroom, no other safe place to put him).
My understanding is that a well-placed pillow and deal with the crying problem quite well. I'd hold off on the coffee, as it will keep the kid from sleeping if you're nursing. Rather, try some wine or scotch. It will make you feel better and will make the kid feel better, too. Also, if I've learned anything from TV and movies it's that a large dog can take care of a baby or toddler, so you should look into getting one of those.
I can't believe HP is already the best commenter here.
Yeah, it's a lesson that first-time parents take a while to absorb, but crying is what babies do. You can ignore it long enough to put on some clothes or make a pot of coffee. The newborn bonus: they stay exactly where you leave them.
You can ignore it long enough to put on some clothes or make a pot of coffee.
Or perhaps more accurately, *I* can ignore it that long (and longer!). It seemed to make Roberta break out into a cold sweat.
12 inspired me to get out the sling that Hawaii previously hated, and give it another go. And now she's snug asleep in it, while I am mostly clothed, drinking coffee, at the table.
I keep telling myself that when things are overwhelming, they'll always settle down. Eventually.
And her umbilical cord fell off last night. They grow up so fast.
I can't believe HP is already the best commenter here.
And with two email addresses already!
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Our town just implemented a no-arrest option for the class of misdemeanors which includes possesion of pot. Let's hear it for sensible legislation!
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20: There's the solution to your anxiety.
yay heebie! you're doing great! the key to spending all your time nursing is the laptop in bed, which I understand you have already. I didn't have one till my second child was born, and it made a big difference. this period of my children's lives, when I sometimes felt overwhelmed even with my mom, husband and maid there made me think how hard it would be to be a single mother. but the babies seem to come through ok regardless. and apo's right about how the newborns stay right where you put them; it's wonderful.
The newborn bonus: they stay exactly where you leave them.
Kai is finally crawling effectively, and is big into pulling himself up. One the one hand, he now entertains himself better; OTO, Injury and Death constantly hover at his side.
the key to spending all your time nursing is the laptop in bed, which I understand you have already.
I truly don't know how parents manages before the internets. Weren't they so BORED?
My understanding is that a well-placed pillow and deal with the crying problem quite well.
I don't think smothering is what she had in mind.
I have been reading and watching TV. But I'd be way lonelier without the internets. I definitely have a touch of the cabin fever.
I definitely have a touch of the cabin fever.
Go nurse in the park! (Preferably a park with wifi access.)
Taking her out still feels like a really big production. It's improving, but slowly. (I have to admit, I haven't taken her out by myself yet. Scary!)
She may be uncomfortable at first in the outdoors, but soon she'll be chasing birds, climbing trees, sharpening her claws...
31: Seriously, go for a walk with her in the sling. You don't need anything at all on a short walk; if she needs a diaper change, you can walk home. But you want to break that trapped feeling.
my niece slept very well during the first three months, under the music
this kind it's folk songs, so very soothing
my sister would breastfeed her, change the diapers and browse the web
33 is good advice. Iris was at most a week old when I took her in a sling and the dog on a ~1 mile walk around the neighborhood. She slept through the whole thing (as did AB back home). I'm not sure how your body is handling walks at the moment, but HP can surely stand it for at least as long as you can.
Further: she will not be this portable for at least 2 more years. You've got her food with you at all times. She doesn't need any toys or books. Yes, she may blow out a diaper/outfit, but all she needs to wear is a onesie (AB had a go-bag for when the kids were infants that just had 1 disposable diaper, a ziplock with wipes, and a spare onesie - fit in a smallish purse). Don't miss your chances.
33: LB's right, just slip on some shoes and get out there. You're even dressed, so you'll look like you're a totally together mom!
BTW, this advice doesn't apply to H-G, but for any of you non-laydeez out there:
If you're looking to meet women, have your (preferably) cute baby fall asleep in the stroller while you do some grocery shopping. OTOH, if you're looking to accomplish anything at all once you get home from the store, try to prevent this from happening (hint: this is not possible).
You don't have to go on a walk if you don't want to (of course walks are good; if you want to go for a walk, go!). It's not really a good replacement for human contact, esp. if you don't know many of your neighbors. A better cure for cabin fever is to make plans to get together with someone. Don't be afraid to invite people over if your house is messy. They'll understand, and it'll be easier for you and you'll be less likely to expose HP to viruses if you're at home.
Mmm. I don't know if this kind of thing works outside of a dense urban area, but I had a baby-group with Newt; a bunch of mothers with babies around the same age who'd get together once a week at one of our apartments to drink coffee and eat muffins. Someone else organized it, and I can't remember how, but you might look on grocery store bulletin boards or Craigslist or something.
(I have to admit, I haven't taken her out by myself yet. Scary!)
1. Take child outside.
2. Leave on hillside.
3. Return to house, take shower, floss, etc.
4. Return to hillside.
5. If child is all right, she will grow up, thwart the Persians, and conquer Athens.
Never fails.
Re: 38: you could just yell out the window at people or, failing that, birds.
39: Roberta did this with the women in her childbirth class. Until she had another baby.
42: Huh. My wife started going to moms club after having the second baby.
Though the first rule of moms club is not to talk about moms club.
If you're looking to meet women, have your (preferably) cute baby fall asleep in the stroller while you do some grocery shopping. OTOH, if you're looking to accomplish anything at all once you get home from the store, try to prevent this from happening (hint: this is not possible).
Surely the feverish masturbating must stop after an hour or two.
41. Yes. My interspecies human-bird mom support group was beautiful. But I realize we can't all be so lucky. Some other good sources for new mom support groups: unitarians (seriously), la leche league (I don't recommend them for nursing support, many groups tend to be polemic, but it can be a good place to meet other new moms), or playgrounds. Also, your midwife or doula might be able to set you up with others who had babies recently.
37
this advice doesn't apply to H-G, but ... If you're looking to meet women,
Homophobe.
I miss the stoller rides that progressed to walks that my son and I used to take. The walks were my exercise because his strategy was to go downhill away from home until his little legs wore out and then ask to be carried home. We still go on walks, but we don't cover much ground anymore as there are too many sticks and too many things to smack with sticks.
Homophobe
You're right, although I have the distinct impression that babies are a lot less effective a pickup device with lesbians than with straight women (if only because a lesbian looking at a woman with a baby in a stroller and thinking HOTT would spend a lot of time in disappointment).
Surely the feverish masturbating must stop after an hour or two.
You can either have the material or the time, but not both.
we don't cover much ground anymore as there are too many sticks and too many things to smack with sticks.
You should call the mayor's help line.
Heebie, you're incredibly brave. My wife didn't go back to work for 24 weeks, and even then I was clinging to her legs and begging her not leave me alone with them.
replacement for human contact
Unfogged conference call!
50: I did. I complained about that and the potholes. They told me to put the sticks in the potholes. Which only lasts about an hour, even if you tamp the sticks down.
53: If you want it to last, you need to mix in discarded bubblegum and smooshed caterpillars.*
*This post does not condone the smooshing of any bugs or insects that aren't harmful or bite-y. But accidents happen, especially around small children with sticks.
54: We dug up a worm this weekend and carefully reburied it so the worm 'wouldn't get cold.' Then we found the hoe and forgot where we buried the worm.
54: Don't forget to add glue along with the caterpillars.
Then we found the hoe and forgot where we buried the worm
That's why you need a proper grave marker.
56: Yes, the hoe was at least quick.
58: But her hourly rate was ridiculous.
58: YOU ONLY PAID ME $10!!! WHAT'D YOU EXPECT???!1!!?
Tip for new parents feeling they may be inadequate at the job for whatever reason: For reassurance that all of your failures in the first year matter not at all (as long as you keep them alive and avoid prolonged periods of malnutrition--brief spells of malnutrition don't matter), get a self-help book intended for parents who are adopting internationally. They are quite clear that it makes no difference if your baby was abandoned to a third world orphanage where they were cuddled for less than an hour a day, left to cry for hours at a time, never let outside, and fed two thirds of what an american baby gets. According to these sources, that stuff is scientifically proven to be irrelevant by the time of preschool. You might as well go out for a night on the town when the crying starts.
Converse tip for those who are adopting internationally: DO NOT UNDER ANY CONDITIONS consult any guides intended for pregnant moms, or parents of infants. You do not want to think about what almost certianly wasn't done for your kid in gestation and the first year.
And a tip for those who don't have babies at the moment, but enjoy irony: read a pregnancy/infancy guide and an adoption guide written by the same author, and count the contradictions.
Hope it's going/went well Heebie. Sometimes I got C to leave me a packed lunch so at least I could eat. Microwave was very useful too, otherwise I would never have had a warm cup of tea. I'm not sure I showered until Teletubbies was invented.
63.last sounds entertaining to this irony-appreciating father of 2.
I will say that Iris' little friend who is an adopted crack baby (literal truth; it's an open adoption) has a host of speech and behavioral problems that are hard to explain in non-infant environment terms.
63.2 how cynical an advice
can't you be a little like respectful about biological parents of the adoptive children
some things are better to not be said even if it's true
it's not their fault they couldn't provide for their children so that they had to let them go to be adopted faraway
if you were born into the similar unfortunate conditions you'd have been not that different from them maybe
i so hate reading about Madonna fighting with the father of the baby she wants to adopt, for her it's like buying a dog maybe
some things are better to not be said even if it's true
. . . unless they're about degenerate Western values.
Heebie getting to
- brush teeth: 0
- get dressed: 0
- get cup of coffee: 0
My kid's eight, and I'm still having a hard time with these tasks.
what are those values, degenerate or what, some serious matters you tend to discard as unimportant and some other things are like blown out of proportions
what's that important to say about and in all caps, maybe some vaccines missed in the case of the adopted babies, so you'll reschedule them, why it's so needed to declare your like obviously supremacy
maybe it's your culture's like inherent feature to be divisive and alienating and self-elevating at other's expense otherwise that racism for example won't last this long for centuries
Or maybe you're totally misreading the comment you object so strongly to and taking unnecessary offense.
i read again the paragraph and it says what it says
maybe it's your culture's like inherent feature to be divisive and alienating and self-elevating at other's expense
If this is indeed a feature of our culture, then you've certainly come a long way towards adopting our ways. Congratulations, read!
71: No, it doesn't. You're misunderstanding it.
The idea is that those pregnancy guides are alarmist and crazy, so if you get sucked into their vortex, you may get really caught up in the idea that a very specific, very American set of rules for proper behavior is the only thing standing between your baby and complete disaster. In reality, of course, it is not so. But if you read those books you may think it is, and lose your mind over not being able to control the situation for yourself.
My kid's eight, and I'm still having a hard time with these tasks.
I don't think that's down to PK, B.
63 was actually wonderfully reassuring to me.
Heebie:
You realize that the purpose of children is to make you feel inadequate, right?
I agree with the comment that you should just leave the house to get fresh air. Remember that the baby should come with you.
It really is hard to screw up your kid too much. It is also really hard to make them into a genius.
It is also really hard to make them into a genius.
I don't care who did it, I'm just glad it happened.
80:
I appreciate you saying that about my son JRoth.
I may have admitted this here before, but this parenting moment is actually on video, filmed by Buck:
Sally is ~6 months old, and I'm sitting with her on a hardwood floor.
Me: Look, look, she's sitting up by herself [as I withdraw my hands to make it clear that I'm not holding her up].
Sally: [Collapses to the floor, hitting her head with a solid 'clunk'.] Waaaaaahhhh!
Me: [to Buck, filming] You can erase that, right?
63 was actually wonderfully reassuring to me.
That's because you're a Western racist, and you feel better about your own parenting b/c it's so much better than the parenting of poor people in other countries.
82: I have a similarly embarrassing video of feeding PK a cookie on his first easter, well before he was ready for solid food, and saying "look, he likes it!" as he tries to spit the damn thing out.
Look at the difference in GDPs, and tell me we don't know something about parenting.
85: We don't know something about parenting.
63 84. 1 and following
if one formulates a thought perhaps one actually thinks the thought and lives up the thought too
Or perhaps not! One never knows, does one?
i don't know, i just mention how disgusting is to think thoughts like that even like ironico-sarcastically
But I was just repeating what you said. Was it disgusting when you thought it, or just when I did?
what are you saying repeating my words, read 63 again and see how racist it all sounds
and you two and the GDPs mentioning saying it's reassuring, you yourselves declare that you are racists
non-ironically
Read, how exactly is it racist to point out that countries that provide a lot of children for international adoption tend to be poor, and that parents who place their children for international adoption--or children who are orphaned or abandoned--tend to be very poor and, as a result, the children probably have not had the kind of hypercautious healthcare that most American pregnancy books say is required?
92 continued . . . and moreover, to do so in a way that actually implies that the healthcare that American pregnancy books say is required is actually a bit over the top and that most children are just fine, even *if* their birth mother didn't follow the prescribed "What to Expect When You're Expecting" diet?!?
Because that was basically the point 63 was making.
I read 63. I didn't see a damn thing in there that was insulting to birth parents. Unless you think that acknowledging poverty is somehow insulting.
Read, I really think you're projecting.
really 'sutui golodnogo ne razumeet'
very unimaginative of you, so i give up, you won't get it however explained to you it seems
94
Because that was basically the point 63 was making
Are you sure? Normally when an unfogged commentator says something like that has been "scientifically proven" they are been sarcastic.
I suspect the books themselves probably often are smug, borderline-racist, and awful.
Indeed.
Moreover, I think Read's objection, James, was that 63 was insensitive to poor *parents*, rather than to orphanages.
i object to talking about adoptive children, parents, orphanages, whatever, in general, in a such derogatory manner
and adopt your domestic babies first, why not if it's that unsupressable urge to adopt
It might surprise you, Read, to know that plenty of people in "our culture" also object to international adoptions.
Although otoh, I suppose it makes sense that we wouldn't all agree, since we're so enamored of being divisive.
The one thing you can say about the third world is that they have really terrific orphanages.
I think Read just has no idea how deeply crazy the mainstream advice books for first time US parents are. Read, go take a look at What to Expect When You're Expecting or one of the goddamn Sears books and then get back to us.
good to know that not all are baby buying racists
i see some hope!
It's renting a baby until 18, surely?
Third world babies just plain taste better.
108: Yeah, but practically none of 'em speak English. So fucking infuriating!
101
It was completely unclear to me what point 63 was trying to make.
Nor do I really understand the reaction it provoked in read.
You eat babies from third-world orphanages? What kind of monsters are you?
I know, you don't want to think too hard about what happens to those babies while they're in the orphanages, but then that's true of nearly all of our meat.
All I read 63 as saying is that American birth parents are told that allsorts of super-care is necessary for the health of their babies, whereas American adoptive parents are told that prenatal care and infancy are unimportant for the long term health of the child. Someone is being misled (most likely both).
read probably needs to PASII, but it might help her comprehend 63 if she knew that American mothers are told not to eat dessert while pregnant or, if they must, to have a muffin sweetened with fruit juice. Insane.
This thread started off with gently nursing women, but it has become men eating third world babies. I blame the patriarchy.
I blame the patriarchy Mongolia.
If you're thinking about eating imported third-world babies, you should pause to consider the carbon footprint of flying them all this way. Still, much better than beef, from what I understand.
I am shocked that the phrase "grass-fed babies" gets only two Google hits.
Huh, how embarrassing for me. All this time, whenever I went to a restaurant and ordered "baby", I just thought it was the name of a vegetable from the mysterious orient.
You don't want to know which body parts go into baby bok choy.
Semi-on topic: Phooi leaves are yummy. They look kind of like giant watercress, or spinach with heartier stems. Anyway, tasty (didn't try it raw, but I bet it would be fine).
I especially like babies who've recently breastfed -- wonderful umami flavor.
Awww, Bave brought it back to the original topic. It's the Circle of Life, people! Just like the Disney song tells us!
(I suppose 121 works better if you know Russian, although then it would be "umamy," really.)
Wow. I actually started some conroversy here at least with read. I think most of the crowd got the essence of the joke, which is about the genre of books providing advice to the pregnant or to new parents, and not about actual parenting or orphanage practices. It was also a riff on the earlier comments about letting the baby cry for long enough for mom to go to the bathroom or whatever.
read, I don't agree that some things shouldn't be said. Like most Americans who adopt from a foreign orphanage, my wife and I spent a fair amount of time in the orphanage visiting our son-to-be. It was simply a fact that the babies didn't get as much attention, or as much nutrition, as babies raised by parents. I have the greatest admiration for the orphanage director, who could could have asked for anything in the world from adoptive parents, and chose to request large amounts of children's Tylenol. But orphanages have limited resources. Also no disrespect is intended to the birth mother, from whose generosity we have benefited.
It is actually quite comforting to a parent (if not to a baby eater) to know in advance that an orphanage baby is likely to be in the bottom percentile of weight at first meeting, but will catch up quickly, and this did happen to our son. In general, it appears to be true for our son that he
OMIGOD THE LITTLE FOREIGNER BABY ATE UNIMAGINITIVE
The agencies do warn you that that is one of the risks.
125 when true and difficult situations are told without contempt, joking and irony i have no objections to discuss whatever is the problem
hope people understood to what i was objecting
well, so U went and adopted a deprived child, i didn't do anything, yet
so perhaps you have all rights to say judgemental things, b/c your good deed is speaking for you
i'm sorry and good luck to your family
I prefer when true and difficult situations are told with lots of joking and irony.
contemptuous? no surprise, it's your trait i've noticed
hope people understood to what i was objecting
No one is confused over what you are objecting to.
I prefer when situationally ironic humor reveals difficult truths.
2017? Yeah, I can hardly fucking wait. First year of the Franken administration.
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This post by tristero at Hullabaloo is germane to this thread on school lunches:
"Today, I came across the following menu:
Cucumbers with garlic and fine herbs
Basque chicken thigh with herbs
Red and green bell peppers and olive oil
Couscous
Organic yogurt
Apple
In most parts of the US, that would be described as a gourmet, or near-gourmet meal. In France, it's called government-sponsored school lunch."
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137: To be fair, the US doesn't have nearly as many Basque chicken farmers who need giant government subsidies as France does. (Our Basques are mostly shepherds.) Our money is better spent on lining the pockets of ADM. Supermarket to the world, baby.
Perhaps that should be "Supermarket to the world, laydeez."
If poor people in poor countries want people to stop buying their children, they should stop selling their children.
138: Bakersfield, CA and Elko, NV have great Basque food, served by guys wearing cowboy hats.
141: I don't doubt it. The Great Basin: America's Basque Country.
Two of the Harvard hospitals--Brigham and Women's (the maternity portion of which was known as Boston Lying In when I was born there) and Beth Israel use this place called the Isis Center for pre-natal classes and their staff gives tours of the delivery wings. (I just looked at their website, and they've taken over for MGH too.)
They have all kinds of classes and groups. A friend of mine belonged to one when she was on maternity leave. I think that it was partly about teaching developmental milestones, but it was also about providing support now that people don't have their extended family around all the time and there isn't the same community of Moms who were there before so many women entered the workforce.
They're pretty swipple, though. Is there anything like this in heebie-jammies' town?
What to Expect When You're Expecting" diet?!?
A priest at my church gave a sermon about this. He said that many people had given him this book and that it was the most frightening thing he'd ever read. The nurses who showed them how to care for the baby at the hospital were much more helpful. He also said that the first six months were pretty simple--by far the hardest thing he had ever done, but simple. You just had to feed, love and clothe them.
when true and difficult situations are told without contempt, joking and irony i have no objections to discuss whatever is the problem
Wow, if anyone cared about your objections, we'd be in real trouble here!
That said, we've often comforted ourselves about the little "mistakes" every parent makes by looking at how adorable and well-adjusted our friends' four-year-old, adopted from China at two, is. No matter how guilty we might feel about not giving the babies enough attention, or not feeding them just the right food, or giving them too much formula and not enough breast milk, or whatever upper-middle-class-white-guilt crap we're feeling, we're reminded that really our choices only have so much impact.
Also, no one should read "What to Expect When You're Expecting." That book sucks.
Also, no one should read "What to Expect When You're Expecting." That book sucks.
This seems to be the universal truth among my friends with children. All of them read the book, all of them worried, then all of them trashed the book.
OTOH, AB says that "What to Expect in the First Year" is pretty good. I'm sure there's still bullshit, but, since the baby is out of the body and just sitting there, there's much less hocus-pocus guilt mongering about how mom's behavior will impact baby, and much more, "if problem is X, solution may be Y."
if anyone cared about your objections, we'd be in real trouble here
why do you even bother to reply like that then?
well, i'm indifferent to your opinions too it seems upon some soul searching
149: You're going to have to cite some supporting data on that before I'm willing to just accept the assertion (though Cryptic Ned appears to agree with you).
148: why do you even bother to reply like that then?
Because your objections are usually based on a misreading or misunderstanding, and yet you insist on insulting many people here and insisting that your interpretation must be the right one.
Also, you're incredibly quick to give out insults but then just as quick pout when people defend themselves or even just try to patiently explain to you what it is you're misunderstanding.
How about trying this: the next time a comment here makes you fly into a moral rage about what horrible horrible people we and all Westerners are, before commenting, step back for a few minutes and try to think of a more charitable interpretation. Then come back and ask a question instead of hurling accusations.
You say you want to learn about our culture. Constantly accusing us of being moral monsters and then refusing to listen to explanations is a really bad way to learn.
I ALSO THINK 149 IS CORRECT
MM i don't need your condescending lectures
please lecture someone else, here on me it won't have any impact i'm afraid
so please skip reading my comments as i will do from now on
149 could just as easily be false, you know. Let us suspend judgment until we get more information.
MM i don't need your condescending lectures
Yes, you do.
please lecture someone else, here on me it won't have any impact i'm afraid
See?
so please skip reading my comments as i will do from now on
Please skip acting like a spoiled child and that won't be necessary.
Mζch? While I agree with you substantively that read has gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick here, I don't think this is productive, really.
151 proving yet again that apo is TFA.
I should stay out of this, since I've only skimmed the thread, but I have to say, I have some sympathy for read.
I think she's being unpleasant, and unsympathetic in her comments. But I also think she's right to feel concerned about a whole host of issues about trans-national adoption regardless of how admirable any one individual or set of individuals are.
The problematic interaction between read and the rest of the blog on a couple of these issues is that read is making no effort to exclude present company from her comments and, at that point, people get understandably annoyed at her criticism.
But in most cases I think there's a perfectly strong argument that could be made "present company excluded, of course." I don't know why read doesn't present it in that way.
Apologies to read for talking about her in the third person -- I'm in the odd spot of not wanting to respond to the specific comments in this thread.
I'll read the rest of the thread now.
But in most cases I think there's a perfectly strong argument that could be made "present company excluded, of course." I don't know why read doesn't present it in that way.
Charitably, I'd guess it's because she's communicating in her fourth language, in which she seems proficient but far from fluent.
But I also think she's right to feel concerned about a whole host of issues about trans-national adoption regardless of how admirable any one individual or set of individuals are.
I agree completely! There are definitely many interesting things to be discussed regarding this issue. And read says interesting things at Unfogged when she's not acting like she did in this thread.
My desire is not to avoid discussion of these issues, nor to get read to stop commenting, it's to get her to stop some specific behaviors that are, well, shitty, and which routinely disrupt discussion around here, and which have routinely been pointed out to her by many on this blog, to no avail.
Fourth language or no, if anyone else exhibited such behavior on a prolonged and repeated basis, we'd all be demanding pastry as soon as they showed up in a comment thread, instead of patiently explaining, one more time, that, in this instance, she's, once again, behaving shittily.
157: My apologies. I know it's probably no use to respond to read when she gets like this, but it can be very hard to resist.
it's to get her to stop some specific behaviors that are, well, shitty, and which routinely disrupt discussion around here, and which have routinely been pointed out to her by many on this blog, to no avail.
See, this is what I think is unproductive. In read's specific case, while these miscommunications are annoying, she's generally pleasant to have around, and attempts to straighten them out don't seem to go anywhere useful. Why not just let it go?
Why not just let it go?
Because seeing something or someone I care about wrongly called horrible and degenerate is irksome, particularly when it happens repeatedly. But ignoring read's insults is probably the wiser choice, you're right.
Why not just let it go? Because it is a step farther than miscommunication. Based on misinterpretations of the norms here, she imparts shitty motives to people on a regular basis. She's working a variant of the Known Asshole Defense and she's not funny enough to pull it off.
and she's not funny enough to pull it off.
In many ways this is indeed the true crime.
i don't know into whatever troll theories you classify people and it's not about being funny fyi
i say what i feel and i feel when people are being discriminatory and mean intentionally or, which is even more insulting, lightly jokingly
if your norms are racist i say it and deal with it
I know. We'd forgive most things for very funny.
You also say people are being intentionally mean and discriminatory when you haven't correctly understood the comment (as in 63, which I still don't think you understand -either because you don't have the context of overbearing pregnancy books or because you're missing the language skills). Calling people racist when you're wrong is a bullshit move and I don't care if you sincerely feel that inside.
Leaving for lunch; don't mean to be unresponsive.
i say what i feel and i feel when people are being discriminatory and mean intentionally
But so often you actually misperceive the situation, and then absolutely refuse to even consider that you might have misperceived it, despite many people patiently attempting to explain.
Again, I should probably stay out of this . . .
if your norms are racist i say it and deal with it
One of the things that's been talked over before at unfogged is that to accept the idea that everyone is racist and sexist some of the time you have to accept that being told that something you've done or said is racist or sexist isn't a terrible insult.
This can be difficult, we all know that racism and sexism on a large scale are terrible offenses. But, on a small scale, we have to be willing to treat it as something to address in the moment, and then let go -- both for the person objecting to racism/sexism/classism and the person being called on it.
The more times I read 63 and 66 the more I feel like read was essentially correct in her comments. I think she was right to say that there was, at least potentially, something offensive in 63 that everyone else was ignoring (and, everyone was ignoring it for the simple and obvious reason that 63 clearly didn't intend any offensive sentiments).
The flip side of defending 66, however, is that I have to criticize read for the moments when she digs in her heels about the arguments.
read, if you accept the distinction I made above between big-R and little-r racism, there's an implied social responsibility on your part when you're saying that someone has said something racist. If you're accusing them of big-R racism then the standard of proof is high, that's a serious attack. If you're accusing them of little-r racism than you need to allow room for them to apologize, or just acknowledge the comment and move on.
Look at the exchange in 125/128 in which unimaginative explains and read says
125 when true and difficult situations are told without contempt, joking and irony i have no objections to discuss whatever is the problem
hope people understood to what i was objecting
well, so U went and adopted a deprived child, i didn't do anything, yet
so perhaps you have all rights to say judgemental things, b/c your good deed is speaking for you
i'm sorry and good luck to your family
In my reading 125 is a more than sufficient response to read's comments about 63.
read, in your response you appear to be offering to bury the hatchet with the final "good luck to your family" but the opening of 125 undermines that. When you write "when true and difficult situations are told without contempt, joking and irony i have no objections to discuss whatever is the problem" that could mean one of two things first, that you think unimaginative may be essentially correct, but that you still think the presentation of 63 was wrong (too much irony and joking) or, secondly, that you think you misread 63 and that you are explaining the reason for your misreading (too much irony and joking).
The first of those meanings would put the obligation on everyone else to accommodate your preferred styles -- it implies that people can't complain about you misreading them if they employ an ironic or joking style.
That isn't going to convince anyone.
The second meaning -- explaining your reasons for reactions, along with the sort of gesture of reconciliation that you made in 128 should be unobjectionable.
Not being clear about that distinction in tone is what makes people rightfully annoyed.
172: The more times I read 63 and 66 the more I feel like read was essentially correct in her comments.
I haven't asked read, because there were enough people getting into it with her. But can you spell out for me what's racist about 63? It's not that I'm thinking you're being too hard on something that wasn't all that bad, I don't see what's racist about it at all.
169 i wish i had more time to tell you that you are horrible and degenerate, i think i got how it is to be a troll, it gives me a pleasure to say it
i can't like everybody and i dislike you and say it and please let us ignore each other
if one does not attack me and yes, i'm projecting, my kind, i do not attack first
thank you, NickS, for your comments, i'll think about what you said
i wish i had more time to tell you that you are horrible and degenerate
Okay, I love this. I'm taking it as an answer to 166, although I don't think it was meant that way.
I don't see what's racist about it at all.
I'm starting from the presumption that trans-national adoption is enough of a mine-field that almost anyone talking about it likely to say something a little bit racist just because there are too many mines to avoid all of them.
So it's an area in which I'm more sympathetic to charges of racism, but also don't put much weight on them.
That said, I would look at the juxtaposition of
"They are quite clear that it makes no difference if your baby was abandoned to a third world orphanage where they were cuddled for less than an hour a day, left to cry for hours at a time, never let outside, and fed two thirds of what an american baby gets." with "You might as well go out for a night on the town when the crying starts."
I understand that unimaginative was using that to make a specific point -- and to offer support and reassurance to h-g.
But if you ignore authorial intention, that looks like it makes some assumptions (1) that third world orphanages are, essentially, places of neglect and (2) that a [concerned, involved] first world parent could intentionally neglect their child and still provide a higher standard of care than that in a third world orphanage.
Yeah, I'm having trouble mapping the acknowledgment that poorer countries generally have lower standards of medical care than rich countries do onto any reasonable template of racism. Especially when it's being used to introduce the idea that most children will lead healthy lives regardless of whether they received first-world standards of neonatal care.
But if you ignore authorial intention
Paging BitchPhD.
To read it that way, you have to take the statement that there are at least some orphanages where babies are neglected as equivalent to claiming that most or all non-American orphanages are places of neglect. The racism is in the generalization, but the generalization is completely imputed, rather than being present in the text.
third world orphanages are, essentially, places of neglect
Aren't they, though? (And first-world orphanages as well?) The people who run them are doing their best, and a whole hell of a lot more good than most other people. But they aren't anyone's idea of an ideal child-rearing environment, are they?
if one does not attack me and yes, i'm projecting, my kind, i do not attack first
This is a false description of your past behavior at this blog.
Further to 176, I could add that statement arguably implies (3) that whatever care that resource-limited caregivers in third world orphanages do provide is of negligible value.
63 doesn't state that "cuddled for less than an hour a day, left to cry for hours at a time, never let outside, and fed two thirds of what an american baby gets" is intended as a typical description of a third world orphanage, and probably intends that as a limit case.
But, you could read that comment as perpetuating the same mistake that WTEWYE makes and lumping everything that doesn't look like the proscribed American method of raising children as neglect.
I don't think it deserved more than a "hey, did you mean this?" followed by a "no, that was deliberate exaggeration, but I can see how it could have looked bad."
Annie is totally racist.
Hard knock life, my ass.
182 written without previewing the responses.
the generalization is completely imputed, rather than being present in the text.
Which is to say that it wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that it fits so nicely into pre-existing stereotypes.
Just imagine if you took the statement quoted in 176 and substituted "inner-city ghetto" for "third world orphanage (and put it in a different context in which there was no reason to assume good will).
Someone could still argue that they didn't mean it to be a description of typical conditions, just a limit case of the sort of thing that could happen in an inner-city ghetto . . .
The damage wouldn't be in the literal statement, but in conjuring up a whole set of stereotypes.
At this point, however, I'm probably amplifying my argument far beyond what it deserves.
Still going, huh?
Racism has no particular application where the international orphanage population I met was the same race as me (white). Country-ism, maybe.
For the record, many third world adoptees in the U.S. did not start their lives in orphanages, although my son did. Guatemala has something more comparable to a foster home system, and China has different practices in different areas. I started from my own experience, both reading a book and what I personally observed.
And to repeat, the orphanage did the best it could, and my son (now 5) suffered no observable ill effects from the orphanage experience.
cuddled for less than an hour a day, left to cry for hours at a time, never let outside, and fed two thirds of what an american baby gets
Sadly true of the Ukrainian orphanage I volunteered at when I lived over there. And I suspect it was one of the better ones. No one was to blame for this -- the people who ran it did the best they could with scarce resources. It's just that the government didn't have enough money.
NickS, what you say makes a lot of sense, and like I said above there's useful discussion/learning/etc to be done around these issues. What I find incredibly frustrating is that when read behaves in the manner in which she did in this thread, it derails that.
I am reminded, somewhat, of this thread of yore.
185-186, I should explicitly state that I have no personal experience or standing to say much one way or the other about trans-national adoption. I'm very glad that you are willing to post based on personal experience.
(and put it in a different context in which there was no reason to assume good will)
And there's the crux of the biscuit right there. Even with James there's a certain presumption of good will/faith. read's been round more than long enough to recognize that norm of this place. If 63 had come from someone who'd never commented here before, then maybe - maybe - it would deserve such a judgmental reading. But the spirit of this place is that we can throw out pretty much anything and expect discussion on the stated merits, not on dark implications of hidden character.
Also, unimaginitive's list just isn't that offensive - as has already been attested here a couple times, not a single item on that list is atypical of third world* orphanages. What's the counterclaim? There's no third world? Orphanages in the third world are islands of comfort and plenty? Nothing in the list talks about the character or motives of the people in/around the orphanages - just the material and practical impacts of their circumstances.
* Is Ukraine even 3rd world? Marginally so at worst
18 on the thread linked in 188 is wonderful.
Huh-- I see read's point too, but don't see the need for anger. IME, Americans (others too-- Japanese, Russians, Chinese) are perfectly happy to generalize about nations and their people on the basis of GDP, as long as they politely add the phrase "present company excepted." Present company excepted, of course-- conversation here usually is unusually amicable.
Hearing these assumptions ("and how old were you when you learned about soap?") often enough could make a person with low GDP origin touchy, touchy enough not to get the joke about overbearing tone in parenting manuals. Instead, to see an unspoken assumption about orphanages in poor countries and the people that run them, which FWIW I also see though weakly in the tone of 63.1. I wouldn't extend that to an assumption of speaker prejudice, but that's here-- if I heard the same thing on a train, I'd roll eyes. To then be told "but this other part is FUNNY" doesn't sit well. IMO getting pissed at something this subtle is pointless, but I see where read's coming from.
Basically, most people are open to criticism from in-group members, less so from out-group members, and jokes can serve as quick unintended reminders of where the group boundary is. I am reminded of the discussion of hostile intent the other day or the interminable hooker debates-- men and women can quickly stop seeing each other as thinking individuals but as group members when a topic of disagreement comes up. Which I guess is why people come back here, to get both the reason and the snark. long, sorry.
I should qualify: Ukraine in 1994. They'd just gone through some hyperinflation, were in the midst of brutal "economic liberalization," various Mafias were vying for control of various regions and industries. I hope things are better there now, although a friend of mine was there maybe six years ago and went back to that same orphanage and said they still needed loads of help they weren't getting.
(and put it in a different context in which there was no reason to assume good will)
"And" is doing a hell of a lot of work in that sentence. In fact, all the work.
Also, ffs, 63 was funny.
192: I dunno - right alongside blithe first worlder presumptions of poverty is blithe first worlder failure to comprehend grinding poverty. I see the second as a much bigger problem, since it's a handy excuse for not doing a goddam thing about grinding poverty.
Americans in the 50s made great sport of hill-billies in Appalachia; yet, in the early 60s, they were shocked to learn that actual residents of Appalachia were, in fact, desperately poor and in need of outside assistance. Ideally you'd have neither misunderstanding, but I can't accept a worldview that treats the former misunderstanding as the truly problematic one.
IOW, to me 63 would have sucked if it presumed that the worst neglect 3rd world orphans experience is that their jarred baby food isn't organic.
196: And a rare case in which the pwnee is the pithier one.
192: See, that's the thing, I had almost exactly the same thoughts. And they're interesting to discuss.
It's how quickly "stop seeing each other as thinking individuals but as group members" happened in this particular instance, and in numerous past instances, that is extremely irksome. As JRoth said, the failure to even consider some good will / good faith is a dick move.
I can't accept a worldview that treats the former misunderstanding as the truly problematic one.
It was pretty fucking vile, though, in fact, and not entirely separate from the latter problem.
200: Good thing we're all past that then.
Racist.
i wish i had more time to tell you that you are horrible and degenerate
Please make time! We westerners get off on that!
yes, you too are denegerate and horrible though i never noticed you before
206: You never noticed peep before? Racist.
OK, the thing that kills me about all this is that 63 was actually not about orphanages. It was about the contradiction in parenting books, and it was funny and on point. Good comment, unimaginative!
Why are we discussing abstruse interpretations to find potential secret racism when all the native speakers understood the point of the comment?
206: I'm thrilled that you find me degenerate and horrilbe, and yet deeply hurt that you never noticed me before. What an emotional rollercoaster!
208: I think 192 makes a decent case for the potential of taking it the wrong way, actually.
209: And now I'm also profoundly ashamed by my inexcusable typo! No wonder I don't comment that often -- I can't bear the emotional upheaval!
This thread is making baby Hawaiian Punch cry, I fear. You horrible degenerates.
Hee. I just re-read up thread and I say, back the fuck off, Brock. I'm the horrible and degenerate one here and I won't have you moving in on my territory. STEP OFF, peep.
no, poop.
Ew. Horrible, and degenerate.
200: Absolutely. And the hill-billy comic books are just fucking unbelievable. Certainly blanket dismissal of a group will lead to dehumanization and the rest. But that tends to be made easier, IMO, by eliding the real differences in relative wealth.
Tools like Charles "$200k is middle class" Gibson aren't prejudiced about the true middle class or even the working poor; they have no conception of their condition, and so advocate policies that harm them.
This isn't a "we'll deal with racism once there are no poor people" argument; it's an argument that we shouldn't get confused about what racism looks like.
(similar situation: incarceration of black males; an accurate statement of the rate may actually be worse than the assumptions held by a genuine racist, but isn't a racist statement, and will further anti-racist goals)
214: And now Megan has scared me! I'm running!
Man, rough day for you here, peep. I'm sorry. You can be horrible and degenerate here with me, if you like.
I'm also profoundly ashamed by my inexcusable typo!
It's okay, peep. It certainly wasn't as bad as heebie's misspelling of your name in 213.
63 was funny, yes, and more humor would be great. Here is a joke from my 8 year old:
What word means the same thing in every language?
Hot or not? I can't decide myself.
218: No, seriously, I have to run.
219: Yeah, but that was excusable, since she had a dirty diaper in one hand as she was typing with the other.
The phrase "horrible and degenerate" reminds me that for some time now I've wanted to wallow in depravity. Something about the sound of the phrase gives me a sense of blind comfort. Of course, at this point my life is so staid that I could probably get ankle deep in depravity and find it a transporting experience.
I also have no real idea how to wallow in depravity. When I think of specific possibilities, they are either not all that depraved, or things I really don't want to do.
This image comes up early on a google image search for "wallow in depravity." Its close to the sort of thing I'm hoping for, but I think slots are boring.
Huh. I would have thought you would have wanted something with more absinthe in it for real depravity.
Or, for another option -- do you have a sixteen year old sister-in-law?
When I think of specific possibilities, they are either not all that depraved, or things I really don't want to do.
My guess is that you just really don't want to wallow in depravity.
If you want imagery for wallow in depravity you could do worse than the virtual club scenes in Caprica.
This image comes up early on a google image search for "wallow in depravity." Its close to the sort of thing I'm hoping for, but I think slots are boring.
I got this, which isn't too bad.
(I'm a little surprised that search does turn up more truly abject depravity. Maybe it's because my safesearch is on.)
My safe search is off, and I didn't get any straight porn either. Mostly, I got images of things people were criticizing for being depraved. I guess "wallow in depravity" doesn't have the same selling power for most people as it has with me.
Aw.
Let me say again that I love unfogged.
Thanks, everyone, for taking my comments in the spirit with which they were intended, even those who disagree with me.
Carry on with wanton depravity (or is that something else?)
Ψ
Arlen Specter wallowing in depravity:
"There's still time for the Minnesota courts to do justice and declare Norm Coleman the winner."
Ψ
I got this, which isn't too bad.
Brock wants to wallow in hertitties.
I'm sorry. But not so sorry I won't hit Post.
Carry on with wanton depravity (or is that something else?)
Google images say it's something else, although closely related.
230.last: An image search for "wanton" mostly reveals a disturbing inability to spell ubiquitous Chinese food items.
Shit, this is making me hungry.
Oh wait, how does one do an uppercase psi again? I don't want a little hand cultivater, I want a pitchfork!
||
Back on topic, I just took Hawaii for the advised walk around the neighborhood, in her sling. We were stopped three times. All three times people touched her hands, and one time a woman kissed her on the cheek. I was totally skeeved out. Swine flu cases! Right near here! Herpes! I just said two seconds ago that she's two weeks old! The kiss happened so unexpectedly that I didn't recoil or anything.
How do you stave off friendly people grabbing your kids' hand, in a friendly way? (I can't imagine the kiss will be a common occurrence.) I don't want to reprimand or antagonize. Do you just carry wetwipes for afterwards?
|>
Eh, it builds a strong immune system. A couple of months from now she's going to be biting the cats.
239: Man, that's counterintuitive!
238: You want me to talk to these people, heebie? I can set them straight.
But in any case Yay! leaving the house! No more of a hassle than a big handbag, in the sling, isn't she.
How do you stave off friendly people grabbing your kids' hand
Don't sweat it. That's just part of the Make Parents Paranoid cottage industry hype. Babies are plenty tough.
The complicating factor, I have to admit, is that two of the three instances were with homeless people, including the kiss. Everyone was super nice and friendly. But clearly hadn't bathed in a while, and I'm trying really hard to find a diplomatic way to phrase my swipple fear that homeless people would be extra-germy.
Huh. I think you're going to need to ask a fellow Texan, or something. Basic body-language and social norms would keep that from happening up here, to the point where I can't picture how to stop it.
OTOH, while I can totally see being extra nervous about homeless people generally, I wouldn't worry about them having extra germs that the baby would catch.
How do you stave off friendly people grabbing your kids' hand, in a friendly way?
You're in Texas. Just shoot them.
Silencers, a mom's best friend.
Did Ogged just make an appearance at Edge of the American West?
"He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I snarked at Ogged..."
Brad "Somewhat Carried Away" DeLong
249: I just noticed that too. I'm waiting for independent verification.
A swimming post? (And not from Neddy Merrill.)
Proving that EoTAW really is Unfogged 2.0.
||
USA! USA!
1) Republicans harness imagery and sound in a sophisticated attempt to appeal to the base.
2) Move over Brick Testament, wanton depravity explored via Lego.
|>
Speaking of his oggedness, some accuracy-freak Wikipedia-editing asshole removed "The Ogged" from the list of confidence tricks. Don't people have anything better to do than de-fun the Internet? Douchebags.
Does this make a full year since he left? That seems like something he'd do - allow the random comment or appearance after a full year of abstinence.
Why would ogged list "http://www.unfogged.com" as his URL?
Proprietary nostalgia? Autofill? Ogged, why would you do that?
Why would ogged list "http://www.unfogged.com" as his URL?
Asserting perpetual ownership, even from retirement.
258: Quick, let't trash the place!
But I can't imagine what it would be like to try to comment somewhere as Ogged, if you're Ogged. Everybody's flags go up. Well, people are attached to their pseuds.
Good lord. The lifeguard must have ditched him.
260: OH NOW I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY REASON TO THINK THAT.
260: "Lifeguard" s/b "kidney"
260: I think marriage would be equally plausible.
Must be over a year now. I went back to work last June, and my first chance to comment from work, I find out Ogged is quitting.
I loved that Wikipedia entry. Damn.
Heh. I followed too many links and forgot I was writing from the future.
After three months' hiatus Penny went back to work and this thread was still open in her browser, and she commented in it.
