I am waiting for JRoth and other P-burgians to start singing, "We are family."
LB, I feel like you are like a second cousin, twice removed. At least.
Best bit from the first report:
"Testifying in his own defense, Turner said he was a paid FBI informant who was trying to "flush out" dangerous neo-Nazi and white supremacist members of his audience on behalf of the government."
...really large percentage of my non-family social chatter takes place in the comments here, which is a weird way to interact with people.
...makes me wonder how much interaction pre-1900 was in the form of correspondence (or even crosstown messaging), and how much of that was relatively brief. Also:must read me some Tattler
I have suspected that we write so poorly because we talk too much, and have never valued conversation very highly. I have had many opportunities to watch giants match wits on TV, and have rarely heard much that wasn't of only ephemeral interest.
I have suspected that we write so poorly because we talk too much, and have never valued conversation very highly.
What you mean "we", paleface?
Also, allow me to be the first to say that I'll put in a good word for all of you with my handlers in the FBI.
That's very kind, M/tch. Now that we've got you vouching for us with the Secret Police, if we can just get bob to put in a good word come the Revolution, we'll have all the contingencies covered.
You forget God, the Ultimate Contingency.
7: Oh, we're covered there too: Jesus is my homeboy.
7: I always suspected He was an informant and his longhair persona was just a front.
the convicted blogger is a frequent commenter here
Let's not over-generalize. The rate at which frequent commenters are convicted of violent crimes is not that much higher than the rate found in meth dealing motorcycle clubs. Statistically, you are more likely to be assaulted by a bear* than an unfogged commenter.
*While in the Yellowstone back county wearing a shirt make of pork.
(I'm angry that I messed up my faux-reverent capitalization scheme. Being fallible is a pain. I don't think even having a best friend would help me now.)
Hmm, it seems like kind of a pointless metric, but I've got way more non-family confidants than familial ones. Not even including FB friends.
I guess I have about 10 confidants, per my understanding of the usual definition of that term. If you add in all the sort-of semi-confidants, the number would at least double. Maybe triple. By contrast, there's only my mother and one sister that I really feel that I can confide in within my family. Maybe a couple of others, although I hardly ever see them or write them or talk to them.
On OP.1, I'm curious why there were two hung juries followed by a change of venue.
Ah, Wikipedia says the change of venue was moved by the defense so as not to be where the threatened judges lived. Guess it didn't work out for them.
Don't you know that when you hate at this level there's no ordinary venue.
15: You're certainly right, anon. Apparently I can't use numbers or capitalize, plus I'm needlessly weepy (though not about any of this) and may end up throwing myself on the mercy of my friends in the comment threads today.
Since the topic seems to be sorta random stuff, am I allowed to bring up the whole "Brock Landers is Ben Quayle and posts fairly innocuous stuff on NSFW websites that would never be an issue except that he is running for Congress" brouhaha?
I think part of the friendship problem is that, especially for young people, friendships in the US can be very competitive. In college, I felt like a lot of the people who wanted to be my "friend" were in it for some kind of ego satisfaction or to get closer to people I knew who were cool. After college, for many years, I had friends who were really hostile and competitive before I figured out how scary and poisonous that was.
While I was in Germany (I'm back now--yay!) I met a Danish woman who was really into American reality TV shows, largely because she was fascinated by how mean and goal-oriented everyone was. She said if you try to do reality dating programs in Denmark (and they've had a few), by the end of the first episode, the girls will be turning to one another and saying, "Oh, you sleep with him; I'll back off. You really seem to like him, and I think he likes you!"
When I read "Rightwing blogger convicted of making death threats against judges" I wondered "Did Jeff Goldstein finally beat someone to death with his cock?" "Did the Confederate Yankee go off his meds and shoot up the neighborhood?" "Did the Red State Strike Force fire on Fort Sumter again?" I'm relieved to see the "right-wing blogger" was just Hal Turner. I thought it might be someone really crazy.
21: There is an underlying cruelty and competitiveness throughout US society that's really hard to see unless you have some outside referent. It's a "winning is the only thing" attitude that really gets in the way of genuinely connecting with another person.
I had just drafted a comment about how there's a weird little gap in my circle of friends between confidante and friendly acquaintance. I have plenty of both, but the level of closeness in between is almost entirely empty. Until reading your comment I hadn't realized that the gap lies exactly at the point where competitiveness collides with trust and affection. All of a sudden it makes perfect sense.
20: Allow me to be the first to allow you to be the first to do so suggest that you RTFA.
"n a separate study, Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, authors of Connected: The Surprising Power of Our Social Networks and How They Shape Our Lives (2009), surveyed more than 3,000 randomly chosen Americans and found they had an average of four "close social contacts" with whom they could discuss important matters or spend free time. But only half of these contacts were solely friends; the rest were a variety of others, including spouses and children."
Huh. I'm totally the opposite. I'm not especially close to my family, and I certainly spend very little of my free time with them (though to be fair I have neither a spouse nor children). But I'm very close with many more than four friends.
I wonder how this ratio varies with age.
25: I'd think it varies a lot depending on marital/parenthood status -- both spouses and children are very timeconsuming, in a way that competes with maintaining friendships.
21 is great. Makes me picture Scandinavian "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" which involves a panel of three Swedish people saying "well, not me really, I'm quite happy as I am. Maybe a couple of hundred would be nice, there's an Ikea coffee table I've had my eye on."
I'm always interested in how people respond to new love relationships w/r/t friends. Some people see it as an opportunity to meet a whole new groups of people, make new connections, find out more about their partner by watching him/her with longtime friends, etc. Others respond to getting a new partner by talking less to their own friends, interacting very little with the partner's friends, etc. A couple of my good guy friends are doing the latter right now, and I'm trying to be understanding. It just reminds me so much of how I acted when I was dating a violent schizophrenic--I didn't want to see my or his friends because people might see how toxic my relationship was. It's possible that my friends who close down friendships for a partner are just really into dyadic relationships. But it makes me nervous when I see it.
This is the comment where I impotently register the usual irritation at allegedly thoughtful opinion pieces whose authors demonstrate that they haven't read the literature, just glanced over the pop book and engaged Muse Control. There's been a big debate for the past three years about whether or not Americans' friendship networks have been declining in size or otherwise changing.
The thing that terrifies me most about aging is imagining watching my friends die off one by one. If I somehow lived to be 85 or 90 (which is admittedly unlikely, given my proclivities) who would I have left to talk to? Maybe a few children of friends, but probably not.
Also, I have a morbid fear of dementia, so if anyone ever wants to know if they should use heroic measures to keep me alive, the answer is emphatically: NO!
Allow me to be the first to say, somewhat obligatorily, that 21.1 does not strike any chord with my experiences re: friendships in college or thereafter here in the US. Relationships in China, on the other hand (where guanxi is often a central conern), can be a lot like that, although not necessarily.
For 21.2, I hardly think that the people who appear on reality shows bear much resemblance at all to "average" people, and so I wouldn't draw any broad conclusions about national character from them. It's pretty clear they choose people with conflict/pettiness/drama etc. in mind, so maybe it's just that the Danes are deficient when it comes to casting chops. If the woman you spoke to is any indication, the Danes are just as fascinated by the ensuing hijinks as anyone here.
32: The thing that terrifies me most about aging is imagining watching my friends die off one by one. If I somehow lived to be 85 or 90 (which is admittedly unlikely, given my proclivities) who would I have left to talk to? Maybe a few children of friends, but probably not.
You're in your thirties, right? So there's a generation of adults in their twenties who you could be making friends with now, who will probably outlive you. And as you get older you can keep on befriending youngsters.
Muse Control
That's an awesome term.
34: Didn't Survivor start in Sweden? Wasn't it especially cut-throat, devolving into suicide(s), etc?
37: I think so. And I'm pretty sure Big Brother started in Germany.
25: found they had an average of four "close social contacts" with whom they could discuss important matters or spend free time.
This would seem to me to involve two different lists of people, of very different length.
27: Not an issue for me w/r/t marriage, but pre-fatherhood, I would have seen those in my inner circle of friends every week, and maintained a larger circle I might see once a month, give or take. Now the inner circle is closer to once a month and there is effectively no larger circle, since contact isn't frequent enough to keep it going.
Another thing that I learned from hanging out with Europeans for the past month is that they LOVE making national stereotypes.
25. sounds plausible. The thing is, if you put twenty people in a room, they'll give you twenty definitions of "friend", which makes it not easy to discuss the concept and how "friendship" is/is not changing. Once upon a time it just meant anybody who was broadly on your side, so you had dozens if not hundreds of friends. Or you were so fucked. But if you take out blood relatives; extended networks of in-laws; anybody you have a professional relationship with, as employer, colleague or employee; agreeable neighbours who might look out for you but you don't really talk to much - you're not left with all that many hours in the day.
Do people who belong to hobby clubs count all their co-nerds as friends? political action groups? Gyms? Where to begin?
35: Yeah, well, I'm trying! Two of my ten close confidants are in their early 20s. And a big chunk of my extended friend circle are as well. Also, a couple of the people in my close circle of friends are my age, but are almost certainly going to outlive me by many years. Still, it's worrisome.
21.1, 34: I immediately thought of that interview segment in "The Story of the Clash, Vol. 1" where one of them (Mick?) says "Basically, we all hate each other." And then another one (?) says, in a mock-hurt tone "I don't hate you". I think the last time I felt really competitive with friends was in 5th grade or so. I do think you see a lot of this in grad school, which is another reason not to go.
Not that I'm trying to imply that AWB's experiences are any less valid or typical or whatever than mine. Or that there aren't significant cultureal differences between countries. But it's pretty easy for such discussion to devolve into "Americans relate like this, while Europeans relate like THIS!"
32. What's the status of living wills in America?
40. But we've been refining them for a thousand years. It's a minor art form. The time to start worrying is when they take it seriously.
I love watching cultureality shows.
38: And I'm pretty sure Big Brother started in Germany.
Don't listen to Eurasian propaganda! Doubleplusungood!
Another thing that I learned from hanging out with Europeans for the past month is that they LOVE making national stereotypes.
Americans aren't as good at making national stereotypes because they tend not to be aware of the existence of other nations in the first place.
...hey, she started it.
And as you get older you can keep on befriending youngsters.
No you can't. They think you're creepy after a while.
44.1: Well, IANAL, but it usually seems like nothing matters if your family can't agree on what should become of you. 'Cause then it goes to court and a bunch of psycho-Xtians show up and start holding candlelight vigils, and then you're well fucked.
48: It works better if you remember to wear pants during the befriending process.
44.1: If you count "William" and it's common variants, there are over four million in the U.S.
I'm curious how the hostile and competitive friendship thing works too, though I'm fairly reclusive by nature and also haven't lived in a major urban area or gone to grad school and may have missed out on it for that reason.
I do have the problem that my closest friends are not nearby, but I've developed closer relationships with the ones who are. I just have different friends for discussing different things, but I'm also probably not as good a friend as I should be. I give too much and then get used up and bitter. I'm working on that too, and on being emotionally closer to family. I figure my younger brothers deserve good role models in that regard since they certainly won't get it from our parents.
Remember you unfriend someone but you depants them.
51: Information and a bonus apostrophe. What more do you want?
38: Big Brother started in the Netherlands, I think. Survivor was a British idea, probably the result of "Lord of the Flies" being on the GCSE English syllabus for years and years.
50. After a certain age it's easy to forget little things like that.
55: The production company is British, but it started in Sweden under the name "Expedition Robinson." (I just looked it up.)
Obligatory. The only parts I really like are the prevalence of "short dark and dirty" and the fact that the Belgian opinion of every other nation is "bad beer".
53. FB seems to have redefined friend to mean troll.
The link in 58 is a classic, and spot on.
I was once asked by a counsellor to describe myself in 12 words or less and put "Solitary, dull, nasty, brutish and short". He took it seriously and was most concerned.
48 Not on European Big Brothers and early copycats. From what I read, and judging from the ads, folks tended to get to know each other in the nude (most explicit billboards I've seen)
From what I read, and judging from the ads, folks tended to get to know each other in the nude
teraz only watches reality TV for the articles.
I've also never found my friends to be very competitive.
I realize that discussions of children are sometimes perceived to be competitive. But, I dont find that to be the norm.
Is anyone else amused by the fact two of the judges share a surname with a tiresome rightwing publicist? Easterbrook and Posner - in fact, isn't...
Yes - the Richard Posner in the case is the Chicago Law School libertarian law'n'economics guy who blogs with Gary Becker. This is a first, I think.
Bonus Turner: in which he convinces himself he's found an amero.
Better yet, the prosecutor in the case is Patrick Fitzgerald. I'm waiting for the news that Spackerman and Laura Rozen got thrown out of the public gallery for making out, the Rude Pundit should have been there but got drunk, and Kos has issued an all-hands e-mail to get his readers to condemn this sinister behaviour. And Kaus is concerned.
Meanwhile, on a bench outside the court, a monorenal Mexican swimmer waits to be called in for jury selection.
21 and 29 are wonderfully thoughtful comments that are informative for all, but at the same time they are very unmistakably AWB. Two sentences into 21, before I saw who had signed it, I was like, "Great, she's back and commenting again!"
30: yeah, I don't know the sociology literature, but when I read the piece I kept thinking...there have got to be statistics on this, didn't this guy take a spin through google? Having all of human knowledge readily available on the net has made me much less forgiving of essayists who don't take at least a cursory look at research in the area they're writing about.
63: I bet that's a selection process. My friends aren't competitive because if they were they wouldn't be my friends.
An example of the competition/cruelty thing is icing. It's forcing someone to perform an act of submission as the price of friendship and belonging.
I was once asked by a counsellor to describe myself in 12 words or less and put "Solitary, dull, nasty, brutish and short". He took it seriously and was most concerned.
He should have been. It's "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short." Life in a state of nature would be unpleasant, but highly eventful.
64: And Easterbrook is the brother of the tiresome "contrarian" journalist.
There is an underlying cruelty and competitiveness throughout US society that's really hard to see unless you have some outside referent.
This is true, the whole way the "winner/loser" thing has worked its way into casual conversation and thinking in the U.S. is very telling. It's a confused, cruel, and unhappy way to look at what life is about.
I'd think it varies a lot depending on marital/parenthood status -- both spouses and children are very timeconsuming, in a way that competes with maintaining friendships.
this seems true, I was thinking that the increased incidence of single-ness in the U.S. must be increasing networks of non-family friends even if social life is getting more isolating in general. It's almost impossible to be single and not have some close friends. Sociologists I presume have done some stuff holding family status constant.
But: don't couples and families make couple-friends, have playdates with each others kids, etc. so that the lack of time to socialize alone is counterbalanced by socializing as a couple?
30, 68.2: The article does reference at least one study from 2009, which is where the 'only four confidants' number comes from. But yeah, there's probably some actual sociologist out there leaving money/notoriety on the table by not publishing pop essays that reflect the actual state of current knowledge on this stuff.
An example of the competition/cruelty thing is icing. It's forcing someone to perform an act of submission as the price of friendship and belonging.
It's also an example of a small group of immature boys caught up in groupthink. It's not, I don't think, representative of friendship in the U.S.
71.last: It certainly can be, if you're the kind of couple that plays well with others. I wonder if part of the couple-isolation phenomenon is that some people seek in partners an opportunity to express parts of their personality that they don't with their friends. If you're really outgoing and get crazy with friends, maybe it's a relief to date someone with whom you can be quiet and self-controlled. I'm wary of it because I've lost a lot of friends to quiet partners who don't like to see our mutual friend be more energetic and outgoing with others.
70. I got it right at the time. It isn't true in any case - "brutish" would be a hell of a stretch.
71: My anecdotes may not translate well as my partner and I have very different interests and personalities, but our "couple" friends tend to be people we both like fine but who are only truly exciting and interesting to one of us. And if it's her plus me and her friend plus friend's partner, that seldom really hits the spot. I'd expect this to be even more difficult for straight couples since I imagine there's an assumption of paired boy/boy girl/girl interests (as there is when my partner is talking about sports with the guys or I'm talking about computer stuff with the guys in the straight couples we socialize with most) and that seems awfully limiting.
Friendship is complicated. My partner needs many casual friends, though she's lately realized she's craving deeper friendships. I prefer close friends and don't have a lot of patience for the casual stuff though I apparently fake it well and can use big social gatherings as a chance to play participant-observation games if that's how I have to get myself through them.
I wonder if part of the couple-isolation phenomenon is that some people seek in partners an opportunity to express parts of their personality that they don't with their friends.
I think that's part of it, or that people fall into roles with partners that may not work as well for socializing with friends, which makes the combination of partner socializing and friend socializing tricky.
79: It's a joke I heard about Dudley Moore.
Who may have been solitary, but was certainly not poor.
I've also heard "and the wife of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short".
73: You are right, it's not representative of the general population. It's at an extreme, but it's also on a continuum with a significant part of the larger culture, just not one from which the mineshaft is drawn. Not that there's a huge number of bros out there, but those folks grow up and become otherwise respectable suburbanites with a slightly cruel streak, and the penumbrae of the brosphere extend quite far. My cousins are like this - friendship with them is only possible in the context of silly little dominance games.
The thing that terrifies me most about aging is imagining watching my friends die off one by one.
As much as I'm scared of anything, I'm scared of being the last of my siblings. When they're gone, who can confirm your past? Fortunately, I'm the oldest, so if we all get our fourscore, I shouldn't have to exist without them.
83: Just out of curiousity, what's your outside referent? I definitely think that cruelty and competitiveness manifest themselves his/herselves zemselves in distinct ways in different regions of the world, but I I don't think that the amount of cruelty and competitiveness in the US is pronouncedly greater than anywhere else I've lived and travelled.
I don't think that the amount of cruelty and competitiveness in the US is pronouncedly greater than anywhere else I've lived and travelled.
Especially not pronouncedly greater than among Greeks, amirite?
amirite?
Strictly as a matter of principal, no.
That principle being "nosflow is wrong".
When they're gone, who can confirm your past?
Damn Polaroids! But seriously, who would question it? Don't panic, you're as real as any other disembodied entity on the internet.
Competitive? Try this: I get to see Witt and Stanley on Monday. Take that, bitches.
I'm not so worried about defending it to outsiders, since I'm pretty comfortable with outsiders thinking whatever they will. But I'm sure I want the option of being able to talk about it with someone who was there.
||
Things I learn in faculty meeting: "Hey kids, are those annoying IT people trying to make you add funny characters to your password? Well you can keep your password as "password" just by using dollar signs for the Ss!"
|>
This thread reminds me of the blog-flavored grudge-and-dudgeon that followed some Slate writer's disagreement with some correspondent about the duties of the people one calls friends. For some reason that reminded me of George W. Bush's much-covered demand for "loyalty" from everybody whom he could push around, which reminded me in turn of the regular right-wing pushes for loyalty oaths, pledges, evidences, etc., from people in public positions.
I suppose we're all conservative about something.
85: Just out of curiousity, what's your outside referent?
Primarily a pretty gentle bunch of people drawn mostly from the foreign aid/development community in Africa. Well above average in their niceness, as you'd expect. Another referent is the diplomatic community in Botswana. Also brief samplings from travel in various European countries.
I've run into subcultures outside the US that are worse than what I see as the mean for the US, and subcultures within the US that are really very gentle and pleasant (not just DFH ones).
More on 85 - You may well be right, and I'm seeing things through a filter that's adjusted for the unpleasantnesses I'm used to and so exaggerates those I'm not. Out of similar curiosity, what are the countries in your sample?
Sure, I think ideas about friendships are more related to community and profession than national identity. Of course I got along with a bunch of people this summer who are interested in human rights and cultural studies. And my Danish friend, who used to own a gallery, says she found the art community in SF really friendly and helpful, while the art community in NYC seemed more competitive and ultra-networky.
This isn't meant to be comparative, because I don't have a non-US perspective to compare to, but I do find myself inhibited about making friends at work, and I think it's about worries related to competitiveness -- that there wouldn't be a comfortable way to negotiate possible work conflicts with an actual friend. I'm friendly with everyone I work with, but I can't see actually getting close with any of them.
I don't feel like I see the competitive friend making phenomenon either, but competition actively bothers me so I'm sure if it was there I've just steered away from it. I feel like I'm far more likely to see competition within families, particularly with in-laws. I was kind of shocked by hearing someone talk about "winning" as best daughter-in-law the other day. But looking good at another's expense has always troubled me. And that's while I'll never be successful. (I kid. There are nice successful people out there.)
Actually, I wonder if one funny thing about U.S. friendships is the high expectation of informality, openness and camaraderie, which then highlights any underlying cruelty or competitiveness. There's a strong expectation in the U.S. that people will socialize in an open and non-hierarchical way, which can lead to a lot of hypocrisy. I always hear from Europeans about how by Euro-standards Americans are unusually warm and open when you first meet them, but then this leads Euro-types to expect a much greater depth of friendship than is actually there.
I wonder if the huge increase in economic inequality over the last couple of decades has put a lot of strain on this self-image Americans have of being non-hierarchical and open, which then shows up as an increase in sniping and competitiveness. Although I'm probably idealizing the past.
I was kind of shocked by hearing someone talk about "winning" as best daughter-in-law the other day.
A friend of mine and I have a "Who loves Jesus more?" contest every Lent, in a not-quite-entirely-jocular way.
I always hear from Europeans about how by Euro-standards Americans are unusually warm and open when you first meet them, but then this leads Euro-types to expect a much greater depth of friendship than is actually there.
This is my experience of friend-making, but I've always chalked it up to the possibility that once people really get to know me, they find a great deal to dislike.
I blame Americans. And the breakdown of society.
103: Well, that just sounds like fun!
I realized that there's definitely mild competition among a certain portion of my circle of friends, but it's pretty good-natured. Less about social climbing, more about who produces a better dessert. (And then there's dessert, so who can complain?)
I was kind of shocked by hearing someone talk about "winning" as best daughter-in-law the other day.
I was going to say that was indeed shocking. But it wouldn't be shocking in a small child. It would be an socially awkward but not entirely incomprehensible response to which a good parent would respond by explaining firmly that this isn't the way the world turns. And then I thought, I blame the parents, myself. And then I thought, and maybe the in-laws. And then I shot myself in despair.
106: I let her win. Because I love Jesus so much.
Six close friends moved away when I finished grad school, which was a huge blow. They were genuinely close friends, from three different circles. Then two more about two years later.
Four years out, I've made one really close friend, and a few more who I expect will become lasting, close friendships.
I can think of many people who I feel emotionally close to and can speak honestly and frankly with when we're hanging out, but I don't see them very often because of distance. I still value them a lot.
Also, people who introduce competitiveness into friendships is such a non-starter for me that I'm not sure I even recognize it. At most they get mocked for it, which probably extinguishes the competition pretty quickly.
So talk of competition within friends feels completely foreign to me.
108. You'd have to. I was thinking it would be like the proverbial slow race. You'd both end up screaming obscene abuse at Jesus to ensure, like good Christians, that the other one wins.
Off to more boring workshops for another four hours. Sigh.
I always hear from Europeans about how by Euro-standards Americans are unusually warm and open when you first meet them, but then this leads Euro-types to expect a much greater depth of friendship than is actually there.
This doesn't apply to all Americans by any means, but I can easily name those friends of mine who are like this: the camaraderie seems sometimes forced or superficial, falls apart in the face of certain kinds of trouble (say, a difference of political opinion, or, oh, a death in the family), and is rather hopeless if anything needs to be ironed out and discussed.
These are still solid friends, more than mere friendly acquaintances, but they can by no means be true confidants. Somewhat like so-called 'fair weather friends'.
111: I think this is the same logic that led some character in a Borges story to decide that Judas was the True Saviour.
This thread reminded me that I've recently gotten back in touch with a friend who dropped me because I forgot his birthday several years back. Apparently that was the final straw (though in my defense, I'd just had emergency surgery that turned more life-threatening than expected and was in the middle of a complicated break-up/new relationship thing, plus I don't really care about birthdays and had never particularly known when his was) and I'm not sure how several years away has made me good enough for round two.
Six close friends moved away when I finished grad school, which was a huge blow. They were genuinely close friends, from three different circles. Then two more about two years later.
I am a good friend, but very slow to make friends.
It is slightly disturbing that my circle of friends has been moving away/around because I don't know how long it will take to make new ones.
I'm still in touch with them enough that it isn't a problem but, at the same time, that means I'm not trying to develop other friendships. It's a bit of a sad thought, but I am very fond of my current friends.
111: I was thinking of that story too. I remember being very annoyed when I first read it because I'd written a similar story and had thought I was being awfully insightful and clever. Is the Judas paradox something everyone thinks about at age 14?
114, not 111. Argh. Okay, work now and not typing numbers, since it's possible I can do the former better than the latter.
I once got dinged in an annual evaluation for not moving aggressively to take over a work friend's portfolio while she was on maternity leave.
I have 3 siblings, 8 first cousins, and 28 second cousins. Some are friends, while most aren't, and with my siblings, all of whom live at least 1,000 miles away, closeness moves in irregular cycles. It's silly to exclude those relatives who are friends from an analysis of how much friendship a person has.
*While in the Yellowstone back county wearing a shirt make of pork.
Of potential interest: this is true regardless of whether one means Ursos arctos or big hairy gay dudes.
Do people who belong to hobby clubs count all their co-nerds as friends? political action groups? Gyms? Where to begin?
I didn't count my classmates when taking Japanese as friends, but I have formed social clubs with friends in order to provide and maintain contact (specifically I'm thinking of a couple of tabletop gaming groups and a mailing list). My fraternity falls somewhere in the middle, as I joined it with friends in order to make friends and most of my close friends are also my fraternity siblings.
I won't claim to be capable of evaluating the scholarly quality of the essay but I really liked the theme. It's talking about a lot of what I found most valuable in my fraternity and a couple of other specific social settings that has driven me to maintain close bonds with those people. I am someone who cannot tolerate the competitive "friendship" and so there are individuals in those scenes with whom I gladly allowed the relationship to lapse after college because I was so exhausted by feeling like every interaction was still an audition. The ones I now maintain, though, are extremely valuable to me as opportunities to confide, express myself or experiment with identity in a way I can't outside those specific friendships.
Like some of the early comments I have very few close familial relationships anymore and much more highly value my non-familial ones but I'm not sure that's much of a shock amongst Internet nerds.
115: That reminded me of a story about college friends of mine.
David and Eric were best friends in college. After graduation, they drifted apart. They each got married and lived in different parts of the country and spoke on the phone infrequently. Still when Eric's first child was born, David was the first non-family member Eric called. David congratulated Eric on the wonderful news, and then warned Eric that his next call better not be to tell of the birth of his next child. A year or two passed and Eric called David again to tell him of the birth of his second child. David reminded Eric of his warning, hung up, and they never spoke again.
The very last part is conjecture -- for all I know they have since made up, but I do know they didn't talk for at least a few years.
Out of similar curiosity, what are the countries in your sample?
Ireland (3 months), UK (2.5 years, but not all at the same time), Hong Kong (5 months), China (5.5 years), Greece (3 months), Belgium (7 months), plus lots of travel in Asia and Europe and Mexico and Canada. Also, lots of time spent and many friendships with expats from pretty much everywhere.
I have 3 siblings, 8 first cousins, and 28 second cousins.
I have sixteen first cousins. Full first cousins, not once removed or anything. I couldn't even guess as to how many second cousins I have.
Thorn's and peep's stories remind me of how much I hate the "you must pass this specific test I have designed" model of friendship. David's test was at least explicitly stated to Eric, but still.
Also, did David call Eric in the interim between Eric Kid 1 and Eric Kid 2? Or do the phone lines only go one way?
115: That kind of thing (friend drops you or becomes distant over something without explaining it and allowing it to be ironed out) is what I had in mind in 113.
It's an odd thing: is there a fear that simply putting the issue on the table, simply asking what's up, is dreadful somehow? This strays away from the broader topic, but I myself put a fair amount of work as I became an adult into *not* avoiding potentially troubling conversation -- having been trained as a child to avoidance, i.e. pretending that everything's fine, as though it will go away if you don't talk about it -- and I don't respond with true warmth now to people who do that.
I have trouble imagining that it's a uniquely American thing, but I can't claim to have been widely-traveled.
124: Relax, Moby. It's not a competition.
I can't even imagine why people would know their second cousins.
122: Allow me to be the first to express surprise that M/tch lived in China.
Is the Judas paradox something everyone thinks about at age 14?
I'd never heard of it until this moment. But then I believed Judas to be a black woman (more specifically, a skinny black woman with a powerhouse voice) when I was a kid after I saw a multi-culti version of Jesus Christ Superstar. (I didn't understand much of what was going on in JCS anyway, even though we had the album and I loved listening to it. Herod? Pilate? Who?)
I can absolutely see, though, how the idea would have seemed quite clever to my 14-year-old self.
2.5 years, but not all at the same time
That would be something.
Also, did David call Eric in the interim between Eric Kid 1 and Eric Kid 2?
Don't you see ,M/tch, David couldn't call Eric? That would have ruined the test.
124: Mine was apparently specific enough that he knew it, but I didn't until it was too late. At this point, I'm pretty sure he's mad I didn't buy his dinner when we went out last time but since he didn't explicitly say that I'm going to ignore it. I think the tone I'm taking here means it's pretty clear we won't stay friends. But hey, I was there for the years he needed me to help him work through various complex personal issues, so it's no surprise he moved on when he was stable. Maybe I'm a better mentor than a friend or something like that.
As for cousins, each of my parents is one of seven children and at the top end of the range. My youngest brother (11 years younger than I am) is older than all but one of our cousins. For the second cousins I know it's because there's age overlap and because that side of the family is close. I have six cousins on one side and four on the other, plus two ex-stepcousins there (one of whom I never knew) and one child my uncle had before getting married who has no contact with the family as far as I know. I worked hard to make connections with my brothers as they went through high school and we're all fairly friendly now, which is pleasant enough.
I remember "discovering" the Judas paradox at sometime around that age. Of course, the Judas paradox leads pretty clearly to "if God wants sinners punished, then isn't Satan doing God's will?"
That would be something.
I wouldn't put it past me. I am pretty f&*king amazing.
My anecdata: I'm part of a rather extensive local social network, the result of which means I can hardly walk into a show or restaurant or party or whatever without knowing at least a few people I can chat with. But I'm not close friends with too many of these people; I certainly don't sit down and have an extended personal chat with any more than three or four people, all non-family.
The upshot of knowing a ton of people in town: everyone knows who's sleeping with whom.
My mother was the oldest of 15 first cousins who grew up together, thick as thieves. They have stories about sneaking into school after hours to retrieve a confiscated slingshot and similar charming mischief.
I'm so excited that the ToS finally singled me out for comment. My work here is done.
139: YOU CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING!
139: Yes, I was going to congratulate you, but I figured it would be gone soon, and now it is.
I believe the first statement of the Judas paradox is in the apocryphal Gospel of Judas, which dates from the 4th century.
140 was to 137, but it works just fine for 139 too.
I think I have something like 40 first cousins. Maybe more.
139: It is kind of a weird-ass benediction. We inherited the ToS from Kotsko, originally, I think, but he was all over the philosophy related blogs before he settled in here, and was particularly focused on Nosflow, as the philosophy grad student, here. I was kind of pleased when I started coming in for my fair share of abuse.
If you're a lesbian, a philosopher, a Jew, or affiliated with Stanford University, leave the internet! I will ruin the internet for you! Your internet is my puppet.
145: Relax, oude. It's not a competition.
146: There was a while in 2006-ish I think when I was worried he was my weird abusive ex, who was then being disruptively trollish in more obvious passive-aggressive on other blogs I read, but I eventually was able to reassure myself that this wasn't the case. I had a lot more patience for the Troll after that, but that's because I'm not the one who has to delete him.
I am no friend to lesbians, Jews, philosophers, or Stanford University! You're all on notice. Beware, members of those groups, and their cohorts! I will pester you until you can take no more pestering, and HA HA I will be the victor! Lesbians, Jews, philosophers, and Stanford University, prepare for a world of pain!
I never thought I'd see self-mockery from the ToS.
149: Wow, you've been lurking for a long time!
There are a bunch of people I'd mention as friends, but few who are terribly close - perversely, the people I'd say I'm emotionally closer to live much farther away. I'm very bad at initiating and maintaining contact, so those people drop out of my life and become less close quite quickly. The people I know who are close by I see somewhat at random - I also seem to be very bad at arranging to hang out with local friends. This is something that my SO and I both do, which means we end up being kind of hermit-like.
150: You left out apostate Catholics who are actually closet WASPs but who are really super-deep-cover shills for the Jews.
151: Thats not ToS. As long as it's being talked about, thanks to whomever cleans up after him. That must be a pain in an otherwise low maintenance blog.
I'm not sure I've ever had someone outside my family I could call a confidant, or even until a year or two ago a friend. I barely tried to gain friends during high school or college - there were activity-acquaintances, little else. Things are improving now as I have a group of friendly, like-minded people to develop friendships with - there are various social-skills milestones I'm passing - but it's slow going. I suspect there are a lot of people like me pulling down the average.
155: Oh, thanks. I was so stunned I didn't pause to look.
the people I'd say I'm emotionally closer to live much farther away.
This strikes a chord. For me, whether I'm close to someone is a temperament thing rather than based on proximity or frequency and duration of contact. There are people I'm just barely in touch with now but that if we were in the same place again we could basically pick up right where we left off with no hard feelings based on not having kept in touch very well.
And by "low maintenance" I mean "filled with bickering people who demand fresh posts on a daily basis".
Eh, some of you people supply your own posts by sending me stuff. The rest of you ingrates...
32.1 My grandmother is 89 and for a few years it seemed like all her friends were dying, and it was horrible to think about, surely horrible for her. But you know, now she lives in a home for aged Hebrews and seems to have a lot of new friends. I can't quite imagine the friend-making process at 89 (for her it seems to involve a lot of Comparative/Competitive Grandchild Description, which I'm not going to be indulging in) but hey, it's reassuring that it happens.
Comparative/Competitive Grandchild Description, which I'm not going to be indulging in
Never say never, Smearcase. Stranger heartwarming made-for-TV movies have happened.
There's a strong expectation in the U.S. that people will socialize in an open and non-hierarchical way, which can lead to a lot of hypocrisy. I always hear from Europeans about how by Euro-standards Americans are unusually warm and open when you first meet them, but then this leads Euro-types to expect a much greater depth of friendship than is actually there.
Lynneguist had a a couple of great posts on this subject in the context of social class, compliments and their differing roles in the UK and US.
161, 162: Yep. Any day now a bullet might pass through your testicles and lodge in a woman's uterus.
161: Perhaps one of your clients will leave their wisecracking 6yo daughter in your office one day. At first she'll annoy you, but then, through shared hijinx, she'll warm your heart and teach you how to live again.
162: I see lovable urchins on the run from a crooked bank employee attempting to foreclose on the ranch, needing someone to pose as their grandfather. They break into your attractive garden apartment, and the rest is history.
160: I thought there was a new rule that there should be no felt need to feed the blog. Much as I have (at times, ahem) kvetched about the nature of posts, I don't think anyone should feel pressured over blog-feeding.
That is not to say that Standpipe shouldn't post more.
Who's pressured? I'm just pointing out that it's been ages since anyone's sent me Belgian chocolates. And if they did, I would post about it.
29: We used to call those people "deserters"--the ones who get into a relationship and unceremoniously drop their friends. I was on the business end of this in a really startling way once and a three-year rift in the friendship followed, and since then it's been on my mind enough both times I've started dating someone that I was mindful about not doing it. Though it may have helped that most of my close friends live in other towns, anyway--nobody to ditch!
(They, in that comment, is intentionally plural rather than merely neuter. Lots of people should send me Belgian chocolates.)
Smearcase is poopin' out an alien baby!
161: My parents' ages average to 71 and they have never been good at making friends. I can probably count on one hand the number of people with whom they socialized who were not relatives or people from their church - or, for that matter, the number of times they went out without us. They now appear to be completely incapable of making new friends and they have both always been terrible at admitting being in the wrong or apologizing for anything, ever, and so as the years go by their social circle shrinks through mortal and social attrition. If they get into a disagreement with someone that person is basically off their social radar and that's that. I find it horrifying, yes, but as I'm also to some degree one of the people they've willed out of existence I kind of find it just deserts.
B. sent me a postcard from Europe. It's not chocolates, so I didn't post about it. But it made me smile.
Cannot stop laughing about everyone trying to invent for me the Manic Pixie Foster Grandchild. I guess I have about sixty years to start liking kids.
They, in that comment, is intentionally plural rather than merely neuter. Lots of people should send me Belgian chocolates.)
We used to call those people desserters.
Everything in 153 could go for me also, except the last sentence, since I'm too hermit-like even to have an SO.
174: I would like to be the first to also recommend reading the f&*cking archives.
169: With me it's usually not that I get actually ditched, but that after the first few times of meeting my friend with partner, I realize that my friend is really not into contributing to the conversation anymore.
Worst-case scenario was when an ex of mine started dating a guy and had never told him he'd been with women, and also forgot to tell me this was sensitive information. Whoops! Dude, if you expect me to lie to your partner for you, it would be handy to know in advance.
173: B. doesn't comment here any more, so.
179.2: Is that really something you need to know in advance? I would think a general rule would be not to mention anything you know about a friend's sexual history when meeting somebody they (s/he, ze, he or she, them) just started dating.
I was on the business end of this in a really startling way once
Wait, which end is the business end?
181: An ex that you're still friends with? I'd think that's not so much 'sexual history' and more 'how do you two know each other'.
181: They'd been dating about a year, and the bf made it sound like he knew all about it, but I guess it was a suspicion on his part. I was baited.
I was baited.
The worm was the clue.
I also have a tendency to respond truthfully to direct questions, since I don't go around assuming my friends are lying to their partners about everything. Maybe this is a good reason for my friends to keep their partners away from me.
I also have a tendency to respond truthfully to direct questions
I had a tendency to avoid them, if they are about anything important.
Why did your ex feel it important to hide his past hetero relationship? Isn't this fairly common in the gay community?
I'm just pointing out that it's been ages since anyone's sent me Belgian chocolates
I recommend French chocolates.
188: He'd told the bf that, like him, he'd left a marriage upon the stunning and painful realization that he was, in fact, a confirmed homosexual. It was a far more complex situation than that. The bf was a pretty nervous and jealous type anyway, but I think he was even more so because it seemed so clear that our mutual friend was lying about a lot of things.
Similarly, I ran into an acquaintance and her fiancé at a wedding and told the fiancé how we'd met: Oh, funny story, we know each other because the bride tried to set us up once! Except the fiancé didn't know she'd dated women.
I only found that out later when the bride was furious with me. She said I should have assumed that the acquaintance -- or anyone else -- wouldn't have told the guy she was about to marry that she'd been dating women up until a year before that. Screw that. I can't keep your secrets if you don't tell me they're secrets.
Huh. I normally assume that the answer to 'how do you two know each other' wouldn't usually include the information that you dated (or considered dating) the person in question. Just as a general rule.
I think I'd answer questions like that honestly if not with full disclosure: we had a friend in common back in the day ... or whatever.
192: That's my opinion.
I'm not saying you shouldn't answer your SO's question with much more detail, but that is a different issue.
The objection was quite specifically that I'd outed her. It would have been just as bad, according to my friend, if I said we'd met at a Dykes on Bikes rally.
I need geographic proximity to stay close to people. I'm a terrible friend if one or the other of us move away, unless they are also an internet addict and enjoy the occasional gchat. Most of my friends understand that it isn't personal, but I think a few are upset at me for not being a better contact.
My friend circle has been shrinking as people finish their degrees and move away, but at the same time I have a solid circle of close friends that fit in the confidante place. I am glad for this, as I would be rather lost without my friends.
While I'm on Muse Control (TM), I shall say that I had recently made a new friend, only to have her drop off the face of the planet for a few months. I was convinced it was me and was horribly sad about it - well, horribly sad is not quite right, but I was wondering what I had done that was so offensive. Then she recently emailed me to get together with the reminder that she'd been out of the country for like, a month and a half, which I had completely forgotten. So really, everything was good! And then I found five dollars.
I always assume people tell their spouses everything, which means both that there are no secrets I might accidental reveal to the spouse and that anything I say to the person will also be heard by the spouse.
Actually it is more than just an assumption. I think it is wrong to facilitate people keeping secrets from their spouses or to ask them to keep secrets from their spouses.
Off to get Molly at the airport!
I was going to say that it wouldn't ever have occurred to me to assume that 'we used to date' was secret information, but come to think of it, at a reunion for my college coop, I found myself talking to an undergraduate woman who introduced me to her much older boyfriend -- a guy I'd, I suppose there isn't a better word than dated, back when we were undergrads. And my reaction was to say that we knew each other, but not to go into the details of how. (Although I did mutter "In the Biblical sense" inaudibly under my breath when she said "You two know each other?")
I'm not really sure what my thought process was there, though -- I think I found the age difference a little skeezy, and didn't want to increase any awkwardness.
Off to get Molly at the airport!
Hooray!
I don't think "we used to date" is too much information. However, I don't think you should ask "Does she still squeak when she comes?"
Ok, now I'm going.
195: I could see contexts where you wouldn't want to out someone casually. But man, if they're getting married, you'd think that's the sort of thing she would have brought up at some point.
"Does she still squeak when she comes?"
You philosopher types have mouse orgasms on the brain.
I suppose there isn't a better word than dated,
There's a better word. We're adults.
Over the past six months or so I've realized that I generally come across as standoffish, but I don't mind considering how annoying I find some people I interact with. And these aren't bad people, I just find their amount or style of constant chatter annoying, so I know it could be a lot worse and occasionally coming across as rude seems like a small price to pay for repelling more hypothetical people like that. I'm pretty sure I can fake small talk as well as most people if not better, it's just not worth the trouble with most people.
The point of all this is that I think I have a healthy number of people I could call close friends or confidantes, but there's a short distance from people just outside that inner circle (a cousin I don't see much, say, or the friend of a friend I was hanging out with a lot for a while) and a co-nerd I see once or twice a month at a hobby club like in 41.
Relatedly, I think I'm pretty bad at keeping in touch with people over a distance. I procrastinate, Facebook and stuff make it easier to keep up with the important stuff going on with people without actually communicating with them, etc. So it's funny to wonder how different my social life would be if I had never left Vermont. Partly because I never would have met a lot of people, of course, but also because of the people I probably never would have lost touch with.
Writing all this made me wonder something. If I lose contact with a close friend or confidante, do they still count, or are they downgraded to acquaintance or non-close friend or what?
I think I found the age difference a little skeezy
And thinking back, while I believe that was my reaction at the time, I was being awfully judgmental -- if I've got the dates straight, the guy wasn't more than 25 or so.
It's hard for me to imagine going from dating really open-minded people to conservative, judgmental, jealous types. I've moved in the other direction as I get older because I can't stand feeling like I have to hide or lie about myself. But a lot of my guy friends have started going out with super-conservative women during their late 30's. Very mysterious to me.
I'm not in the habit of announcing myself as an ex willy-nilly, but it was one of those bantering, "hey, aren't we hitting if off here?!" conversations in which it didn't seem amiss, anymore than if I'd said I knew her because she'd dated a mutual friend.
203: I was attempting to convey the subtleties of a several month long-distance relationship, involving correspondence and a number of short visits including sexual activities. I wouldn't have introduced him as my boyfriend during that period, but "We fucked" doesn't really convey the nature of the relationship either.
205: Ooooh! I thought this was a *recent* reunion.
186: That's me, too. On the other hand, my friends know I can't be trusted to keep up a lie, and that if I accidentally blow their lie I'll feel no guilt whatsoever, which limits my exposure.
Yeah, she seemed ludicrously young at the time, but I think I was 25 being snotty about undergrads. The story just came to mind because I did instinctively go for not bringing up the history, even though it's not what makes sense to me as a rule now.
209: It was. This guy was a Doogie Howser type, except for the fact that he looked like Justin Bieber.
I'm not in the habit of announcing myself as an ex willy-nilly
Transexual is, I believe, the polite term.
It's hard for me to imagine going from dating really open-minded people to conservative, judgmental, jealous types.
I made it a point to come out to men very early on in dating so I wouldn't waste either of our time if they were going to have an issue with it.
Oh, except for M/tch. Don't tell him, 'kay?
213: I knew there was a good joke to be made there. Well done.
205: I'm confused: the undergraduate woman was dating the now-25-year-old man, and the age difference was skeezing you out? Ha! You were pretty young at that coop reunion at the time, I take it.
215: What's important is that you can do the same kind of thing in verbal communication. That way, you can converse without conveying information.
if I've got the dates straight,
Come on, LB, neb has already told you that this euphemism is unnecessary.
210: On the other hand, my friends know I can't be trusted to keep up a lie, and that if I accidentally blow their lie I'll feel no guilt whatsoever, which limits my exposure.
Are you willing to grant the distinction between keeping up a lie, and discretion? In the latter case, you simply fail to blurt out more information than is needed.
I went to a party semi-recently given by a friend with whom I went to hs. I didn't know most of her friends. One of them, making conversation, came up to me and said, "So! Tell me what E. was like in high school?" I answered honestly and effusively. The fellow replied, "I knew it!" Huh? Turns out E. had spun tales about her years as a darkling outcast, freakish and unloved by all. Um, no. Oops!
211
Yeah, she seemed ludicrously young at the time, but I think I was 25 being snotty about undergrads. The story just came to mind because I did instinctively go for not bringing up the history, even though it's not what makes sense to me as a rule now.
Don't worry, it doesn't seem all that judgmental to me. I remember being depressingly dateless while living in a college town at 25. No doubt that partly due to subconsciously looking for an excuse to be a shut-in or whatever, but I think there's at least some rationality to it. The difference between 25 and 20 is much bigger than between 30 and 25.
221: Was E. actually lying or did she just remember things differently?
223: Oh, lying. Well -- she may well actually believe some of it at this point, but there are deep and irreconcilable points of fact. Not just, "Sure, I was the Homecoming Queen, but I felt unhappy and unappreciated," but "Everyone hated me and I was a total social outcast" (she was the Homecoming Queen).*
*Those aren't the exact details, but more or less.
224: Why on earth would someone make up having been a loser in high school?
225: I've heard there are social groups in which interpersonal skills are frowned upon.
220: Not mentioning anything is my default approach to all potentially troublesome information, a category I draw as wide a boundary around as anyone I've ever met. It's a defensive mechanism due to my inability to remember simple things about who is or isn't supposed to know about what. I just don't tell most people anything about anyone else other than banalities unless there's a good reason to, or extenuating circumstances like the people involved not knowing each other and being unlikely to ever meet.
One of my closest friends has this same default, and she's been dating fairly heavily lately due to emerging from a giant pile of post-divorce crap that kept her off the market for too long (her opinion). She won't even tell me the names of the guys she's seen/seeing because she wants to be able to tell me embarrassing things while maintaining discretion. This makes it hard to keep track of who's who, so we chitchat about Shouty Flopdick, Big Money, Compensation Truck, Nice Cock (Sorry 'Bout the Personality), and my personal favorite, the latest, Funny Attentive Guy. I'm thinking he might be a keeper, which means I'll eventually find out his name. Then I can tell him we've been referring to him for however long it's been by then as FAG.
Now I want someone I can refer to as Shouty Flopdick.
225: Same reason people pretend they went to UMass when they really went to Harvard? See the classic text of the triumph of reverse snobbery over actual snobbery.
Every Hollywood starlet talks about how she had acne or she felt like a loser because she was gangly or she felt like a loser because she developed too early or something. Nobody likes being resented for their good fortune.
Nobody wants to admit to being Heather when they could just as easily tell you they were Veronica.
Someone might also genuinely think they were less beloved than it is apparent, from other perspectives, they were.
230: Yeah, she's a conceptual artist. If you can't be M@tthew B@rney golden (who can?) then you have to be pretty fucking abject.
Why does M/tthew B/rney have to be Googleproofed?
234: Yeah! No, idiot force of habit.
(235 was to a deleted comment, not to essear)
236: Ah, ok. I was trying to decide which Unfoggetarian was most likely to be a secret Matthew Barney performance art project. Probably Brock; all will become clear when there's some sort of museum exhibit involving video of Björk eating rotten eggs and "blue cheese".
238: which Unfoggetarian was most likely to be a secret Matthew Barney performance art project
All of them.
It's a trick question. Matthew Barney is actually illiterate.
we chitchat about Shouty Flopdick, Big Money, Compensation Truck, Nice Cock (Sorry 'Bout the Personality), and my personal favorite, the latest, Funny Attentive Guy.
This doesn't do a lot to convince a person she should actively go on the market. Such energy it takes! (I take your general approach to discretion, also -- well, most of the time -- if that hasn't become apparent by now. I can get upset with people who don't.)
Funny Attentive Guy does sound like a keeper.
Such energy it takes!
Nah, you can just take a pill to overcome the floppy part.
I really hope a lurker starts posting as Shouty Flopdick. Or possibly Compensation Truck.
There's a good chance we already have those. Possibly all of them.
Well, we know "Big Money" is unimaginative.
I don't want to go all hey-why-can't-I-use-the'N-word'-when-Chris-Rock-does-it on you all, but if I had a male friend who referred to the women he was dating with equivalent terms of endearment, I'd be obligated to (a) request some more enlightened nicknames; failing which, (b) shun him.
[I've deliberately left this a grammatical mess. Take that!]
Are you complaining about Dr. Laura or Shouty Flopdick?
Who am I kidding -- 246 is just an attempt to get you folks to posit equivalent nicknames for Shouty Flopdick, etc.
246: I noticed that. I thought it was possible that if togolosh's friend is dating enough to be referring to five datees by name, she was drawing them from a wide enough pool (internet dating) that they really might be, undeniably, like that.
248: A friend of my husband's referred to two of his college girlfriends as Gummy and Puddles respectively. Apparently preferred Gummy.
Gummy
I'm betting he misunderstood what she meant when she said she was descended from indentured servants.
I'm pretty sure she had all her teeth.
The "Puddles" one could have many different explanations, but it's reminding me of a guy I knew in college who would wet the bet pretty reliably whenever he got drunk. Rather than either not getting drunk or not sleeping in his bed when he did get drunk, he developed a rather involved set of pre-drinking rituals for the urine-soaked mattress he was likely to have to deal with, drunkenly, several hours later: put the fan in place and plug it in; get the buckets to prop up the bed at an angle; remove at least one pillow now so it won't get peed on later.
The kicker was when he got a girlfriend and she'd end up helping with the elaborate pre-drinking preparations.
The nicknames were intended to form a contrasting pair, and both referred to vaginal lubrication rather than incontinence. And my sense of what's obvious is apparently flawed.
Mary Tudor, for what it's worth, that's how I read it at first, then I wondered whether "Gummy" had to do with blow-jobs, then I wondered further, since Puddles (vaginally) can actually be a terrific thing (for the woman) if she's really, really turned on during sex ... and then I just didn't know what these terms might mean.
253 is very funny.
Gummy and Puddles
He just doesn't mention Swampy and Scabby. Three more and we'll have a full set of dwarves.
258: It was proposed and he declined the idea. The guy didn't seem to think it was that much of a problem or even that unusual. He's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
257: Bulby and Chandelier could work.
Good thing, that. He'd electrocute himself.
These terms are inadequate to the task of matching togolosh's friend's terms, in any case. Where's Compensation Condo? And, well, Big Money. And, I guess, Nice Tits (Sorry 'Bout the Personality).
I'm not sure what the correspondence to Shouty Flopdick would be.
And, I guess, Nice Tits (Sorry 'Bout the Personality).
Nice tits are personality.
Swampy, Scabby, Gummy, Bulby, Chandelier, and Puddles. One more plus a protagonist and we're ready to start storyboarding.
I have a problem with Scabby, Apostropher. Just saying.
264: Not sure about the last dwarf, but the protag can be Stow Wight, a stuffy English warehouse manager.
I have a problem with Scabby, Apostropher. Just saying.
Have you seen a doctor?
May I suggest Scratchy in place of Scabby.
How about "Doc?" For the sake of the old pattern.
271: Just try out for one of the other roles, parsimon. It's a big cast.
Oh! I kind of like "Doc."
By the way, if the rest of the internet didn't already think this place was a horrible place to be avoided, we can keep this right up. Still need a protagonist.
253 is utterly hilarious. On the piss, as it were, eh what?
So nobody had any free speech qualms about the Turner conviction?
Those were some pretty explicit death threats. So no.
276: Death threats are protected speech?
By the way, if the rest of the internet didn't already think this place was a horrible place to be avoided, we can keep this right up.
Problem is keeping it right up in the aforementioned horrible place, no?
I'm not sure what the correspondence to Shouty Flopdick would be.
Whiny Queef.
max
['She's on The View.']
This conversation hasn't gone as well as one might have hoped.
"Hildegarde" has mouthfeel??
For mouthfeel, you can't beat "lipidinous".
It is shocking that "lipidinous" is not in the dictionary.
For mouthfeel, you can't beat "lipidinous".
Lubricious.
"Mouthfeel" is one hell of a weird-looking word; as though someone made up this concatenation of letters. Also, Hildegarde.
"Lubricious" is one of the all-time great words for sound/sense alignment.
||
I've got a nerd bleg.
Online storage/backup: Mozy or Drop Box? Mozy is $5/mo. for unlimited, Drop Box is $10/mo. for 50G. Any reason Drop Box is better? Other recommendations?
I had a panic attack yesterday when it looked like my external hard drive might have failed -- false alarm -- so I need someplace to make my files easily accessible to the TIA store precious photos.
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Regina? She's the one who had this surgery.
299.last was just a correction of the extra capitalization earlier. Sorry.
"Don't tell anyone, but she's got a yeast infection", Tom said candidly.
"Prep Richard and bring him to me", commanded Tom lubricously.
(Valid alternate spelling!)
"She's just bashful," Tom said achingly.
POP QUIZ
What definition is the following quotation from the OED used to illustrate? "Such a lubricous Faculty of spouting out so many Prodigal Expressions."
(a) Lascivious, wanton
(b) Insinuating
(c) Voluble, glib
(d) Slippery, smooth; slimy; oily
Correct.
But I would rather it went with (a).
Why not use Mouthfeel as The Name?
max
['Surely that goes with Gummy.']
The Name? Which is that? The sought-after 7th dwarf name, or the protagonist's name?
Anyway, I suggested Mouthfeel for a reason: because it is good. So there.
Isn't Mouthfeel the presumed last name of Gummy, Puddles, et al?
The Mouthfeel sisters, like unto the Muses.
Or maybe like the Graeae. Seven sisters who share a cock.
319: Easier to do if you live in a neighborhood with a reasonable Hispanic presence.
318: That will have to remain to be seen, I imagine. It may not be important. It's possible she overthinks things.
Everything Chandelier says is over your head.
I find her comments very illuminating.
THAT'S NO MISS! THAT'S MY CHANDELIER!
"Don't tell anyone, but she's got a yeast infection", Tom said expansively.
"Don't tell anyone, but she's got a yeast infection", Tom bubbled.
Parsimon seems to have missed the commentary that prompted this entire discussion.
It turns out that the tree of liberty is just fine without the blood of tyrants and patriots. My bad.
278
Death threats are protected speech?
IANAL but I believe they can be if they are obviously not serious. This guy may have crossed the line (although apparently the first two juries weren't convinced) but he could probably have worded things slightly differently and been ok.
re: 253
Heh, I used to share a flat with the GU rugby captain. He had a similar problem, not helped by the fact that a couple of our flatmates used to sometimes break into his room [while he was out with the 'rugby lads'] and 'prep' his mattress.* A couple of times he woke up all woeful that he'd 'pissed the bed' again [when in fact he hadn't].
* part of an escalating war of practical jokes that I, thankfully, managed to stay outside of.
Maybe it's because I live in Boston (which is not known for its friendly, outgoing culture), but I've always found the English people (and other British people, Welsh especially) to whom I've been introduced quite friendly. We have more interesting conversations off the bat and they are much more likely, at church say, to invite you out for lunch or a drink or something.
In fact, I've heard that Oxbridge undergraduates invest more in friendships than their Ivy-League counterparts in the U.S.
||http://www.metro.co.uk/news/838593-jail-for-racist-who-called-scottish-cops-haggis-munching-ginger-b--ds
A racist who called Scottish police officers 'haggis-munching ginger bastards' after threatening to kill them has been jailed for 18 months.
Mohammed Amir shouted the abuse at members of Grampian Police when they tried to arrest him for attacking his girlfriend, a court heard.
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Actually it is more than just an assumption. I think it is wrong to facilitate people keeping secrets from their spouses or to ask them to keep secrets from their spouses.
NO. NO. NO.
I used to get upset when people did this, but if I have an old, close friend whom I've known longer than I've known their spouse, I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask them to keep something private. The person can always tell a shrink.
332: Indeed. Trevor Moore was able to broadcast this without being seized by the feds. That he remained at large long enough to make season 2 of Whitest Kids U Know remains one of the most damaging failures of the Bush administration.
We called my grandmother Gummy. My older cousins' mother worked for Catholic relief agencies and then USAID, and they lived in some tropical country where the word for grandfather was Gumpy and grandmother was Gummy. I don't think that Granddad cared for Gumpy, but he died when I was 6 months old, so I don't know. Gummy stuck, though.
338: it's homologous to "cheese-eating surrender monkeys", I think. The format lends itself to extension: "sushi-scoffing ninja weasels", for example, or "fajita-gobbling macarena rabbits".
Lutefisk-retching collaboration squirrels!
Lefse-nibbling neutrality mooses!
Glögi-slurping cellphone reindeer!
Hot-dog scoffing belicosity coyotes?
To scan well, you need the two syllable, not the three syllable, pronunciation of coyote.
340: I like how sushi and ninjas are to Japan so haggis and bastardy are Scotland. (Actually, if I hollered "ginger bastard!" right now at CA he'd be like, "Yes? And?")
Borscht-guzzling autocracy voles.
342: "burger-gobbling slaughter chimps" was the phrase used around 2003-4.
341.3: Actually, it would probably be just as funny/insulting to keep repeating "Finnish cuisine" over and over again until you broke down laughing.
I should have expected there to be prior work in the field.
71: But: don't couples and families make couple-friends, have playdates with each others kids, etc. so that the lack of time to socialize alone is counterbalanced by socializing as a couple?
To a certain extent, sure. One problem I've found is that I don't have the same depth of interaction with our couple-friends as I did with my single-friends back in the days when I was single. We have fun little surface interactions about our daily lives, our kids, and the like, but we don't really get into deep stuff much about our values, our struggles, and so on. I'm feeling that particularly since my wife hasn't wanted any whiff of our internal struggles to get out among any of our RL friends, not even a simple acknowledgement that we've been struggling with the fact that we want different things sexually, without going into details. I think there's some of our friends who would be really supportive of both of us if we could only share that fact, but she's not willing to take the risk.
So I've been struggling along for years with the biggest decision of my life looming out there (stay, go, or find a way to reconcile our differences) without really being able to turn to RL friends to get their perspectives. We've got our couples counselor (who is helpful on a bunch of general things, but not very knowledgeable about the specifics of our sexual issues), and for the past couple years, an individual therapist I've been seeing specifically for her background on these particular issues (who has been a lifesaver to me in trying to find a way forward), but that's been about it. So I really appreciate my invisible internet friends, with whom I can share little snippets of this struggle from time to time under a pseudo, even if you don't know the whole story. Your comments have been helpful to me - I just wish I could do the same in RL.
The problem with Mr Amir's formulation at 335 is that a bastard is not necessarily a small furry animal, so he flames out. "Haggis munching ginger stoats"?
I'm feeling that particularly since my wife hasn't wanted any whiff of our internal struggles to get out among any of our RL friends, not even a simple acknowledgement that we've been struggling with the fact that we want different things sexually, without going into details.
You know, while I'm supportive of your right to share things you need to talk about with your close friends, I have to sympathize with your wife's desire that your issues not get out specifically to your couple friends. My husband and I are friends with a couple who are having a hard time -- he spills his guts to my husband, she talks to me more discreetly, but still sharing a fair amount, and because my husband and I talk to each other, we know a fair amount more about them then I think either one thinks they're sharing.
My husband and I aren't spreading anything any further, so it's harmless, but I wouldn't want anyone knowing that much about our marriage.
349: What about those Scottish wildcats? Those are really cute. I can't think of another characteristically Scottish animal... salmon? Haggis-munching ginger salmon?
Why don't people do the normal thing and write gruesome, morbid songs about their troubles, record them to tape and send the tapes, sticky with fluids, to the Nickelodeon network offices? All this sneaking around seems counter-productive.
351: you forgot the wee sleekit timorous cow'ring beastie.
351: I am unconvinced that the original formulation requires the animal to be characteristic to the nation in question, unless there's a large native French monkey population I'm unaware of.
353. I think calling a Scottish policeman a wee sleekit timorous cow'ring beastie probably qualifies as suicide by cop.
351: well, "haggis munching ginger bastard" works if you consider it as an example of the general class [national food eating] [unflattering national characteristic] [rude noun]. The noun needn't be animal related. I'm unwilling to bar Mr Amir's insult by defining this too narrowly.
US states should be encouraged to designate an Official State Insult, along the lines of their official state birds, flowers etc. I understand California and New York will have to share "latte-sipping".
No, latte-sipping doesn't work for NY -- you could use it for the Boswash megalopolis, but not NY specifically. Give us our bagels, or give us death!
Bagel-munching hostility squirrels?
Haggis-munching ginger salmon?
No, sounds like a recipe.
And trying to feed haggis to a salmon does seem unnecessarily difficult.
357: meanwhile, NC could take "squirrel-munching bigotry gibbons".
Hmm, let's see:
Minnesota: Bratwurst-snarfing conceited blonds?
Wisconsin: Cheese-eating cannibal rednecks?
Iowa: Corn-fed primary puppets?
Chicago: Pizza-gobbling corruption butchers?
The combination of cheese-eating and cannibal makes one wonder what it is that the rednecks in Wisconsin are made of themselves.
363: How to scare your kids in a grocery store, plan A.
362, 363: Well, of course, we call them "cheese-heads"
According to my wife, in Wisconsin you can get a mixed drink that has a sausage for garnish. I've forgotten some of the details (deliberately) and she never ordered one, but I think the drink was similar to a Bloody Mary if celery were made of pork.
Pork makes a great garnish for a Bloody Mary. I've only ever seen (and used) bacon, but I see no reason why sausage wouldn't also be tasty.
I mean, the cocktail already has fermented fish in it. Why so squeamish about a little of the ol' Jimmy Dean?
"Dunkin-slurping backscratching prudery-cod" doesn't quite work.
371: Chowder-snorkeling sodomy puritans, perhaps?
Masshole would seem to work just fine.
370: Not the way I make 'em! (Although something smoky would clearly go nicely. Someone -- Jesus? Whither goest Jesus? -- was telling me about making them with smoked tomato juice.)
NC could take "squirrel-munching bigotry gibbons"
That's South Carolina, ajay. We're the "cousin-marrying tobacco monkeys".
Not possums? Someone must be possums down there.
I suppose possum-munching pigfuckers has better mouthfeel.
Not caught up yet, but 249 is correct: Internet dating is the one true path to spending time with people you end up referring to by nicknames like Shouty Flopdick. My friend is taking the Thomas Edison approach to finding love: try everything and keep what works.
I once saw a huge rat. I lied and told people it was a possum.
382: Abysmal dental hygiene has its advantages.
374: What about smoked paprika or something of that nature? (NB: I don't actually drink Bloody Mary's, so if this is a ridiculous idea, please forgive.)
My friend is taking the Thomas Edison approach to finding love
Suggest the try the Thomas the Tank Engine approach. Sound like Ringo and be really useful.
384 was me. Had a computer reboot recently and keep forgetting to hit "remember personal info."
I don't know whether to scold Moby for his sexism or applaud his homonormativism. Consider yourself chastised and lauded!
384: That sounds really good, actually. Or maybe, similarly, chipotle powder.
EDguy in 348 highlights why keeping up at least one non-couple friend can be nice. I understand his wife's desire for privacy, being at the cringe-inducing side of "please don't talk about my relationship" side of things myself.
At the same time, it is a huge burden to place on your spouse/significant other to say "Don't confide in ANY other friend about this life-altering issue that both of us are dealing with, because I want my privacy.*" In essence, it puts one partner's needs permanently above the other's, which is a pretty tough power imbalance to sustain.
Even though I agree with the comments upthread about the sheer time-challenges involved in keeping up with friends after marriage/kids, and the inevitable drift toward couple-friendships and possibly more superficial or activity-driven friendships, I want to put in a plug for individual adult friendships.
It can really, really help to have someone outside the circle of neighbors/college friends/church friends/whatever that you share with your partner. And for a partner not to recognize that, or to be ironclad absolutist about what you're allowed to share, creates an additional strain on top of whatever original issue is going on.
*Let's acknowledge that therapists are not friends, and that sometimes what you want is to talk to a loving, supportive friend. Or a ribald, blunt friend.
And now back to your insults, you 47-year-old balding Doritos-eating basement dwellers!
Suggest the try the Thomas the Tank Engine approach. Sound like Ringo and be really useful.
Or the Tomas de Torquemada approach. They get one chance to redeem themselves; after that, the pyre.
That's very hurtful, Witt. It should be "kale-crunching".
I want to put in a plug for individual adult friendships
Was there any dissent on this point, as opposed to observations about how existing ones can fade and new ones become more difficult to create as time passes?
335. Not only is that story funny, but the rest of the business is great. There's the picture of a haggis with the caption, Haggis: Popular in Scotland. There are the Related Items that include Haggis flavoured chocolate launched. The algorithm makes some interesting links. Is Mel Gibson there because of Braveheart or racism?
Well, people had brought up the sort of couple-friendships that couples make as filling that gap, and I agree that they really don't.
390: I think it's important to have close friends who are just yours, not also close with your spouse/lover. My BFF is married to a wonderful and interesting woman I rarely talk to despite the fact that I know we would be great friends under other circumstances. But I realized when they got married (two months after my divorce) that supporting them as a couple means first and foremost supporting him as a friend. If I'd felt comfortable talking about the things going on in my marriage ( and relationship before marriage) divorce might have been avoided. As is my loyalty to my wife kept me silent about things that eventually cratered the marriage, things that might have been fixable with a little outside perspective.
Talking to your friends about marital secrets is fraught with potential pitfalls, but not talking to people you trust just traps you in your own delusions, misperceptions, and and buggered priorities. Revealing couple secrets to a trusted confidante isn't disloyalty, it's strengthening the marriage.
I'm off on vacation in a few hours, so I think I'll delegate commenting responsibilities to the other half of my brain togolosh from now on. Have fun, all!
(Although people named "Eggplant" really have a lot of nerve making food-related comments, I must say.)
...not talking to people you trust just traps you in your own delusions, misperceptions, and and buggered priorities.
Given that you may not have a trusted companion, you should always be sure to have entertaining delusions.
301: Drop box. I use drop box all the time just to co-ordinate files between my work computer and the two home computers. It was singularly transforming of my work flow. Also, it is incredibly easy to loose. It is the first the first time I've used a back up system that I could actually imagine recovering all of my files effortlessly with after a catastrophic crash.
Also, it is incredibly easy to loose.
RELEASE THE DROPBOX KRAKEN!
I don't know where that typo came from.
Recently, I've been making more typos based on homophones, either close or distant, rather than simply hitting the wrong key.
Poutine-crunching monarchy beavers
Lemmings! I meant lemmings! Dammit.
I've never had poutine, but I thought it was more squishy than crunchy.
Hard tack gnawing seal-clubbing beavers?
374: I'm still around, just taking advantage of a work lull to avoid the Internet as much as possible and restrict Unfogged time to drive-by lurking. But on the subject of storage/backup, since I'm here, didn't you have a bad experience with that Time Capsule doohickey, oud? I was thinking about getting one.
406: I did! But I was using it in a decidedly off-label manner. (I kept my much-accessed and completely outsized iTunes library on it as well as used it for backup. No matter how often they drop the term "server-grade" in their advertising, it probably oughtn't be used like that.) They gave me a new one, though, which I now use solely for backups (and wireless). As far as that goes, it works really well.
406: My first-gen Time Capsule went kaput a couple of months ago; apparently the power supply is a known weak spot. Apple gave me the choice of having either a replacement unit or my data back.
409: Speaking of which, my new fancy internetty phone apparently came into stock. I'll later today be able to speak with not fully informed but confident disdain on the superiority of Droid phones over iPhones. Who's excited?
410: Not to go all fanboy on you, but I am really loving the screen on my new iPhone. Text is clear and readable even when it's very very small.
412: The reality is, I'd go iPhone in a second if they came to Sprint. It turns out (a) I'm apparently the only very satisfied Sprint customer in the entire world and (b) I fear change.
Witt @390:Let's acknowledge that therapists are not friends, and that sometimes what you want is to talk to a loving, supportive friend.
A Therapist is a Rent-a-Friend.
max
['Or Rent-a-Parent.']
410: Which did you pick? I'm on the prowl for when I have income.
re: 394
Pwned a long time ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cjeOKxnVB8
415: The HTC Evo 4G. I'm not sure it's an actual Droid phone, actually. But it's a non-iPhone iPhone, basically.
The kid really likes his Samsung Galaxy S. He has the ATT version, but it's also available from T-Mobile and either is or soon will be from the other two major carriers (maybe with a keyboard in the Sprint version?).
And isn't the deal with the "Droid" name that Verizon licensed it from George Lucas and is using it with a bunch of different Android devices from different manufacturers?
Possibly the perfect Sausagely sentence:
Something to add to the growing "what's Obama done wrong" literature and the "what's wrong with the 'what's Obama don't wrong' literature" literature is that too often these discussions seem to me to forget that the United States Congress is composed of free and equal human beings who are responsible for their own actions.
My droid incredible has worked out very nicely in the two weeks I've had it. You have to be very battery-conscious, but other than that it's wizard cocksucker. Maybe now that a FPP has a fancy phone we can get a refresh button by the Preview.
420: You're not looking hard enough. First line, three quarters of the way across.
And speaking of: what was that trick for getting an iPhone to scroll to the bottom that I didn't pay enough attention to because I didn't have an iPhone the last time it came up?
Oh. I shouldn't be the one looking for typos anyway, based on recent typo-commission tendencies.
417: Somebody salesman told me, "Look, here is the first 4G phone ever." Very impressive, until I asked about 4G coverage in Pittsburgh as that has yet to be built.
417: Looking around, it appears to essentially be Droid, but with a different interface layered atop.
419: The operating system is called Android and is indeed used by multiple devices/manufacturers; only a few of the phones out there seem to have licensed the name Droid from Lucasfilm.
427.2: Based on the research I did before buying this round of phones, each manufacturer/carrier combination applies their own "special sauce" to the Android OS, which is part of the reason updates take a while to find their way onto phones after Google releases them. And on the "Droid" name: why the hell does using a cutesy shortened version of the word "android" to refer to your robot movie characters mean that no one else can use that shortened version in commerce without paying you? Fucking Mickey Mouse copyright law.
Fucking Mickey Mouse copyright law.
That will be $1,000.
Fucking Mickey Mouse IP Terrorism Rat copyright law.