Re: Cover II

1

And they call me a troll.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:29 PM
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It's OK, bob. The important thing is what you call yourself.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:38 PM
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Buckley's cover is really more of a cover of John Cale's cover.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:39 PM
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As, for that matter, is Wainwrights, IIRC.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:39 PM
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That's funny. I've heard the same of Wainwright's.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:39 PM
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I used to think this was a great song, until I started noticing it every-fucking-where, in particular in the background of every teen romance TV show. Does that affect the actual quality of the song? Anyway, it's been at least subjectively ruined for me. I guess the objective dimension could be that the cheap melodrama of the various pop culture settings highlighted whatever aspect of cheap melodrama aspect there is in the song, which could be more easily ignored when you thought of it as all artsy and underground. Like all drugs, music is affected by set and setting.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:39 PM
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Indeed.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:39 PM
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7 to almost anything.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:40 PM
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kd lang's cover isn't really a love song to her cock. Or maybe it is.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:42 PM
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kd lang's cover isn't really a love song to her cock. Or maybe it is.

I think you owe Jesurgislac an apology.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:42 PM
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As long as we're talking about John Cale, was everyone aware that he had hoped that Sinatra would perform his tune "Close Watch", whose chorus (of course) consists of a line from "I Walk the Line" with a new melody? It's true! And it's a really good song, to boot; I like the performance on Fragments of a Rainy Season. And of course Cale's cover of "Heartbreak Hotel" is a classic.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:43 PM
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Cale's cover of "Heartbreak Hotel" is a classic

Word.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:45 PM
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Seriously, though, let's please not police gender norms quite so vigorously.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:45 PM
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Every so often, there is a post on unfogged which reminds me of its glory. This is one such post (even though you are wrong).


Posted by: RobDP | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:45 PM
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Every time I hear this song I laugh out loud. Its appearance in "Watchmen" is going to go down as one of the worst and most incongrous movie mistakes, up there with Jar Jar Binks. Maybe 20 years from now I can view it objectively again.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:47 PM
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I am interested in hearing more about this "thereby".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:47 PM
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(even though you are wrong)

Convince me. I tried to like it, I really did.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:49 PM
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Incidentally, in the UK this song was (within the last year or so) quite spectacularly massacred by a contestant (or maybe even a winner) in one of those reality Pop Idol / X-Factor type shows in a way which made it exponentially more omnipresent, and in a version which rendered the song not even interesting enough to be accused of onanism. Brilliantly, this was exactly the point at which my mum, who had spent my teenage years moaning about the "dirge"-like Cohen and Buckley versions emanating from my room, told me on the phone that she had decided that it was a "fantastic song." It was generally agreed by my mother and the gutterpress that constitutes 90% of British newspaper output that he or she (I think she) had given the song a "powerful" or "heartfelt" rendition. We are all doomed.


Posted by: RobDP | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:50 PM
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Not that we did not just have a pretty extensive discussion of "Hallelujah" covers this past December. Start here and read down. Prompted by its ascension to England's Cristmas Number One:

Cowell, the music impresario known here for his snide comments on the British equivalent of American Idol, called The X Factor, selected Cohen's classic ballad "Hallelujah" as the first single for recording by this year's winner. The song immediately captured Britain's most coveted musical accolade: it is, as of yesterday evening, the official "Christmas Number One" or "CNO." The good news doesn't end there. A 1994 version of the song by the late Jeff Buckley, championed by music fans who rebelled against the rendition by X Factor winner Alexandra Burke, is No. 2 on the chart. And that's not all. Cohen's own version came in at No. 36. "Chart placings at 1, 2 and 36 are remarkable for a 25-year-old song which has never previously reached the top 40," said Martin Talbot, managing director of the Official Charts Company.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:52 PM
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I is definitely time for a Chipmunks version of "Hallelujah".


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:52 PM
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I am interested in hearing more about this "thereby".

Thereby is what you need when you're depressed and have a cold.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:52 PM
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19 -> 18 after the fact.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 12:53 PM
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Convince me.

Well, taste is taste... It's not my favourite song (or version of a song) ever or anything, and I don't have it handy. These are the caveats to my attempt at a defence of why I always liked it. I suppose I've always found it just feels more "genuine" than "affected". I like the hollow. reverby production with just the trebly guitar and his voice. I love the way he suspends things in such a way that the move from arpeggio to sharp chords works powerfully. At the time I first heard it, I only knew Cohen's version, so the contrast between two differently-silky productions and renditions was pretty striking. Since then over the years I've heard all these other "one wo/man and his/her guitar" versions and now of course it doesn't seem so extraordinary. But it still rings nicely in the air, whether or not it is in fact about his cock.


Posted by: RobDP | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:00 PM
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I contest 15 and offer the alternative opinion that the scene in question is the most exquisite moment of high camp in any popular film in decades. Did I laugh aloud in the movie theatre? Yes, but it was an endorsement and not a condemnation.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:04 PM
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I don't think it sounds affected, but I can see how someone might not like it.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:05 PM
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15: Alan Moore is still spinning in his grave basement shrine to the snake-puppet Glycon.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:05 PM
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As to the song itself, it's a beautiful song that's been done to death. It seems like everyone wants a version to add weight to their repertoire. Rufus seems like a natural for it so his version doesn't grate like others do but even when I hear his I'm left thinking that surely he had a song of his own just as good to sing that day, y'know?


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:06 PM
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ALL THOSE CHIMPOSTERS ARE JUST RIPPING ME OFF.


Posted by: OPINIONATED HANDEL | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:07 PM
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The idea that Rufus Wainwright grates less than others when singing a song is, to me, hardly creditable.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:08 PM
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I do like the instrumental performance, and the timbre of his voice is not unappealing. But I'll go back and listen to it, and each time there's that yuh-uh-uh again, and I barf.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:08 PM
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Yeah, from what I hear, you have to learn to suppress the gag reflex when leaning in closer to Buckley's cock.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:09 PM
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29: RacistBassist.

All other opinions aside, I'd be just as happy if Rufus' version were an invitation to look at his cock.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:10 PM
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31: Putrefaction will do that, I hear.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:10 PM
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Putrefaction will do that, I hear.

If I am not cremated, and if my body is not divvied up and given to science/the hungry, I sincerely hope that I am buried in a coffin that is not airtight, because (and I acknowledge that this is irrational) I do not want to decompose anaerobically.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:11 PM
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I used to think this was a great song, until I started noticing it every-fucking-where, in particular in the background of every teen romance TV show

Avoiding teen romance TV shows is an effective remedy for this problem.

The Vandals' cover of "Heartbreak Hotel" is also excellent. I can't find it on the intertubes for your listening pleasure, so here's video of a deer bathing a kitty instead.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:13 PM
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Rufus' voice sounds like a cross between that of John Lennon and Gordon Gano (Violent Femmes). It doesn't grate on me, but that might be because I think of him as singing in character.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:16 PM
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Next, I suppose, you'll tell me you don't find the character grating, either. You liberals are all alike.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:17 PM
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neb would be wise not to read this Brief description of putrefaction of a human body with respect to time of death.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:18 PM
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A hoo ah.

Haha.

Whee!

(Scampers off.)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:21 PM
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Hey, I'm putrescible!

Is the point of the link to demonstrate that everyone putrefies? But this is not so.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:21 PM
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I'm pretty sure you could do a fresh mash-up of hallelujah and major tom.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:25 PM
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Or space oddity or whatever the fuck it's called you knew what I meant.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:26 PM
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Planet Earth is blue,
And there's nothing I can do, oo-oo-oo, jah.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:28 PM
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39: I gotcher back, Tweety.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:29 PM
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Well, there is a song called "Major Tom", and there is also a song called "Space Oddity"; one is by Peter Schilling and the other is by David Bowie.

TRUE FACT: The Schilling version exists in both German and English, and the last lines of the two are highly discordant with each other, semantically ("mir wird kalt" vs "I'm coming home")—you could claim that "home" here is, you know, death, but Schilling gives one no reason elsewhere in the song to make such a supposition.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:29 PM
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45: I thought the Schilling song was called Major Tom's Wild Ride or Major Tom: Back In The Saddle or Major Tom Goes To Nicaragua or something, and was kind of a sequel to the Bowie?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:31 PM
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It is kind of a sequel to the Bowie, but its title is simply "Major Tom".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:32 PM
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For me, Jeff Buckley was nearly killed when the flat below me in a split house a few years ago had a party. Braindead early-20s hipsters in to a man. At about 3am, this girl led a guy out for a cigarette in the garden, directly below my window, where I was engaged in a curmudgeonly attempt to get some sleep for something important the next day. And I couldn't help but hear every word they said.

It was basically an attempt at her chatting him up, where everything that could make you cringe occurred in short succession. She started out with some unbearable nonsense about how much she just, like, loved smoking. Then she asked him the killer question, "what kind of music are you into?" And he said "well... anything... been listening to some old Jeff Buckley today." Suddenly the air was sucked from the garden, and she went:
"OH.... MY GOD. You like Jeff Buckley?"
"Yeah."
"I've never met anyone else who likes Jeff Buckley."
"Really?"
"Yeah."
"OK."
"Can I tell you something personal about Jeff Buckley?"
"Sure" *puffs on cigarette*
"OK... well like... OK... the thing is... when I listen to Jeff Buckley... I think... I love you Jeff. Cos you can see into my heart. But you know what else?"
"What?"
"I think... I hate you Jeff. Cos you saw into my fucking heart. And I hate that he did that. You know?"
"...."
"Fucking Jeff Buckley man."

One word in addition to this story: verbatim. I didn't listen to "Jeff" again for about 18 months. And I never gave them the misdirected post we'd received.


Posted by: RobDP | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:48 PM
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48: Have you ever looked at Jeff Buckley's hands? I mean really looked at them?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:51 PM
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Elton John's "Rocket Man" almost certainly owes something to "Space Oddity" as well, given that both songs had producer Gus Dudgeon and arranger Paul Buckmaster in common. Although Taupin supposedly claimed, We didn't steal that one from Bowie, we stole it from another guy, called Tom Rapp. In fact, I heard Rapp complain about just that at a Pearls Before Swine concert a couple of years later.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 1:54 PM
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I prefer Buckley's "Last Goodbye" and "Lover, You Should've Come Over" to "Hallelujah" (though in my teen years I did love it). As for Rufus, as far as I am concerned the best thing he's ever done is "One Man Guy," for which I love him for but can't really stand most of his other music. Finally, Leonard Cohen is awesome, and I don't care what Sifu thinks about that. (Especially, "I'm Your Man" and "Chelsea Hotel" and "Everybody Knows.")

And this concludes our segment of Parenthetical's Random Music Opinions for today.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:14 PM
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I have several Rufus songs, none of which excite me much, but one of which - and I think I got it from you lot - is just awful. Every time I hear it I think that it's some sort of gag, or will only last a few bars, but no, it goes on and on, with this horrible drag-queen* keening. Before that, I always assumed that RW was more or less OK.

* nothing at all against drag queens; it just sounds to me like a drag queen who wishes he had a tenor voice, but doesn't


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:34 PM
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||

Ugh. This shooting occurred in a sort of quasi-public housing block that I've walked through before, trying to gauge whether it was actually dangerous or if I was just being paranoid. Evidently actually dangerous.

Right near a great hot dog shop, incidentally.

|>


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:37 PM
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RW does some good numbers on the McGarrigle Hour album.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:40 PM
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53: Alarming close to Whole Foods.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:48 PM
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I am pretty sure that song is popular because of the first Shrek movie:

I'm very disappointed that they chose to substitute different artists for some of the songs. I really liked the version of "Hallelujah" in the movie, and the version sung by Rufus Wainwright just isn't the same. I don't understand why they didn't use the original artists, or at least put some sort of warning on the cover.

It was John Cale's version in the movie (Rufus Wainwright on the soundtrack album).


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:49 PM
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Hmmm, I like the Jeff Buckley version too. Had to hear some of the Pop Idol woman's one over the weekend - absolutely appalling - the kids put Now 72 on in the car. Jesus, call me a grumpy old woman, but I really couldn't listen to most of the songs - we skipped through CD1 in about 5 minutes. And then went back to Tom Lehrer, who seems to entertain all 6 of us.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:49 PM
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56 and 57 remind me that for many months we (i.e. the children and I) enjoyed the Shrek 2 soundtrack as our driving music.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:52 PM
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As for Rufus, as far as I am concerned the best thing he's ever done is "One Man Guy," for which I love him for but can't really stand most of his other music.

I also like "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" in general though, I agree, I've never gotten that excited about Rufus Wainwright. I want to like him since my brother, who's tastes in music I respect quite highly, really likes Rufus Wainwright, but I just haven't been able to get into his music.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:54 PM
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Right near a great hot dog shop, incidentally.

Just don't ask who's what's in the hot dogs.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 2:56 PM
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Alarming close to Whole Foods.

That would seem to cast serious doubt on ogged's theory of apartment hunting.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:02 PM
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Damn I do miss Ogged.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:10 PM
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61: He may still be right. I can't figure out the specific corner because I can't find Station Street on either Google or Mapquest.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:14 PM
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I don't think there is such a thing as Station Street. Follow Larimer Ave. as far as you want on any map, and you won't see one.

Station Street Hotdogs, which is basically next door to the post office where most of us Shadysiders pick up packages, is actually on Broad Street. In fact, it's basically at the corner of Broad Street and Larimer Ave. That might have confused the reporter


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:26 PM
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Basically basically Ave. Ave. .. . . . .


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:28 PM
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64: I did that on a map, so I'm glad to know it was not just meet. Not finding anything, I guessed that Station Street was on the Shadyside end of East Liberty because that's where they dicked-up the grid (so a street could go missing) and because that's where the railroad is.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:31 PM
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'just meet' s/b 'just me'


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:32 PM
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Seriously, I think the reporter was confused by the name "Station Street Hotdogs" into thinking that Broad Street was called Station Street. We'll see later on.

I can't think of any way there would be a Station Street that isn't on that map. Maybe Station Street was removed in order to pursue some urban renewal policy. This seems to suggest that part of Station Street remains, but it is unclear. It also says the original Station Street Hotdogs closed "24 years ago", which is exactly the time that the East Busway was built, so maybe this so-called "Station Street" was replaced by the East Busway.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:42 PM
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1. buckley's 'last goodbye' is his best song.
2. hey, do you know what good song you probably haven't listened to in a long time or ever? iggy pop's 'don't look down' from new values. lindsay buckingham's 'don't look down' is also not a bad song, it it's confected, synth-pop way.
3. I have horrible jet lag, just horrible. I always forget how bad it is to go east the full 12 hours. fuck this. I have decided to combat it by getting puking sick and then eating particularly nauseating foods like veal liverwurst, reading infinite jest even though my eyes hurt, lying with my children to help them sleep even though I am awake in the hot night, and stopping taking all my medication including anti depressants suddenly, just because I don't know where they are in my tick-like unpacked suitcases. you are not supposed to stop them all, all of a sudden like that. writing this out it occurs to me that this is stupid and I should just go get the fucking pills.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:50 PM
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There's a shop near me called "Shop on the Bridge". It's not on a bridge. It used to be, before it moved, and was called something else, but everyone referred to it as the shop on the bridge, so when they moved, they kept that.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 3:51 PM
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OK I found one pill, good enough for now and I'll find the rest later when it gets light. that sounds weak, really, but whatever, it's an improvement.
this phenomenon of retaining former names is very pronounced among singapore hawker stall proprietors. thus one must frequently go to amoy st to encounter 'old airport rd stall #17 nasi padang', and the like.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:06 PM
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I have decided to combat it by getting puking sick and then eating particularly nauseating foods like veal liverwurst....

This course of action seems misguided.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:07 PM
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I loved Wainwright's eponymous album, which he has since disavowed for being wanky. He has since written some nice pop songs and done some interesting performances, but the only thing of his I keep coming back to is that first one.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:09 PM
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At the risk of sounding like a character from an LCD Soundsystem track, I saw Buckley do it when he was still touring bars as a solo performer. He played the Art School in Glasgow in 1993 to an audience of about 10 people. It was OK, quite affected and over-the-top, but OK. Much thrashier because it was just one guy and a trebly guitar.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:12 PM
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If Rufus adopts a kid he should name it Furrfu.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:12 PM
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Totally OT: I have a two-day meeting this week that I've been really grumpy about, as it's an unpaid thing in which they're telling us to restructure everything about the class I'm teaching just two weeks before the semester starts, and it was really hot and muggy and I was super-annoyed with everyone for not being clear about the departmental objectives back when it would have been really handy to have them, and I would like to confess that I was a total cunt to everyone all day, culminating in making somewhat of a scene. The woman running the meeting sort of barked at me, and I barked back, and then the whole thing was over and we all rushed out with our heads down, fuming. We've emailed each other and both apologized, and she said some really kind things about my passion and commitment, and I admitted to her that I need to be more flexible, and all that. There is another whole day of meetings tomorrow. Should I apologize to everyone, or somehow make it clear that this woman and I are cool or that we've figured things out? Or should I just go down in the annals of department history for being a total cunt and take my licks?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:20 PM
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There are worse things than being a cunt and taking licks.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:22 PM
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Alameida, am glad you found one pill at least. God knows if I skip a day I get the worst freaking headaches, even without jet lag.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:23 PM
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Could someone please tell me why I consistently want to substitute "Cigarettes and chocolate cheese" for the correct lyric? WTF is chocolate cheese?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:25 PM
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79: I wish that hadn't led me to this.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:27 PM
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The best put-down I ever heard someone give a typeface was to call it "Velveetica".


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:30 PM
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I dunno, SB, but they sell it here.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:31 PM
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The title led me to expect cream cheese.


Posted by: elemund | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:31 PM
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/Ween album?


Posted by: Satan Mayo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:34 PM
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Cover III.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:35 PM
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76: I'd let it slide -- particularly if you're going to be in a room together, body language should make it clear that you're cool with each other.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:37 PM
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Aha! It comes from a Four Bitchin' Babes song:

Butter, I remember Butter
We were once like lovers
We were quite a team

I'll take some butter smothered pasta please
In a vat of chocolate Cheese.

(Via.)


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:38 PM
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69: you are not supposed to stop them all, all of a sudden like that.

No, you're not. Don't do that, please.

I've listened to / watched the Jeff Buckley. I'd never seen him before. The man is sexy, drips of sex. It strikes me that listening to his rendition of the song without watching the performance might be a different experience. He does carry on, though, doesn't he?

I should also watch Rufus Wainwright's version, given that he gets a pass in my universe for pretty much anything he does, and I've never actually viewed him either. His voice is pleasing.

I don't understand what Standpipe means in 13 upthread.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:38 PM
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80: The Trappist monks at Gethsemani make very nice cheese and fudge, but they keep them separate, as Jesus would.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:39 PM
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Yesterday at the fair there was a food booth advertising "CHOCOLATE COVERED BACON" real big, like that.

I didn't try it, though I admit I was slightly tempted, just for Apo's sake.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:39 PM
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I don't understand what Standpipe means in 13 upthread.

I was referring to Ari's comment about k.d. lang's putative penis.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:41 PM
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putative penis

Now who owes the trans community an apology?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:49 PM
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91: Ah.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:49 PM
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Speak to me of Ezra's decline, ari.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:49 PM
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Now?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:52 PM
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Yes.

Now, and at great length.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:54 PM
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The man is sexy, drips of sex.

You're not allowed to masturbate to him, parsimon.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:55 PM
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parsi, you should check him out, he's actually hot also. unrelatedly, you know who is the queeniest goddamn queen in the world? lindsey fucking graham.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:58 PM
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Can we masturbate to Zombie Jeff Buckley? What's the deal with the undead?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 4:59 PM
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99: That's rank lurchery.

Oh, and Kobe!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:02 PM
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97: Why? Heavens, has he died? Anyway, he's just supposed to stand for something -- I imagine that's the point. Mind, this is just based on having watched that one video that SB linked. I didn't really know who he was.

I hope he hasn't died. He seems rather young. I'm downloading the Wainwright now, so I can't check.

I am also curious about whatever ari might mean about Ezra's decline.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:04 PM
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Well, I've said all this before, so I'm reluctant to get into too much depth, particularly because I don't know Ezra Klein, Handsome Jew Blogger™, and also because I'm speculating, but anyway, here's the short version. My sense is that EK is very smart, and my opinion is that he writes quite well. I also think that if I did get to know him, like if he decided that he wanted to make me a savory vegetarian dinner or something, we'd probably get on quite well. And in addition to all that, he actually knows something about something -- health care policy, in his case -- and that's a virtue. But I've always had the nagging suspicion, and really it's little more than that, that his screaming ambition* will force him to make compromises that, in retrospect, may well lead him to a Broderian position as a very safe centrist, always palatable for those in power but never quite as interesting as the rest of us had once hoped he would become. Again though, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

* You know how those people (sotto voce: the Jews) are.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:05 PM
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Why? Heavens, has he died?

More than 10 years ago, I'm afraid. Drowned in a river.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:05 PM
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Yes, you have said that. But that's a prediction regarding decline, and you recently pointed to a piece which you said was evidence of decline.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:06 PM
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101: Yeah, he's dead. He, like, walked into the fucking Mississippi River while in Memphis, or some such nonsense. He was, by all accounts, supposed to have been a great guy.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:06 PM
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Tim >> Jeff.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:07 PM
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parsi, I thought you meant wainwright, who is both alive and hot.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:07 PM
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104: I found the Graham piece, coupled with his decision to go to WaPo, emblematic of his decline. He seems to have compromised in order to land the interview with queenie Lindsey. But it could be that I'm just reading too much into the lack of bite in the questions he asks, including, for example, his failure to follow up about Graham's newsworthy claim that the public option is already dead.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:09 PM
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Shit. I apologize for being so clueless. I didn't really know who he was.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:09 PM
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It's okay, really. Just as long as you're not still masturbating. We have standards, you know.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:20 PM
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I would like to hear Pink Floyd songs covered by a Richard Nixon impersonator. Can anyone arrange this?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:28 PM
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110: No. Having listened to the Wainwright version -- I've heard it many times before, I realize. Can I snatch (save) that song from youtube?

Rufus, if I may call him that, sings with respect. Damn, I like his voice. I want to say: he's a folksinger. Like his dad and the rest of the family.

Ari, I'm agreed with neb that you are being predictive of any possible decline on Ezra's part. It may happen, but despite his youth, he's first-rate still.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:29 PM
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111: If you believe, you can achieve! Also, there is probably pr0n of it somewhere.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:30 PM
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I like parsimon just a little more for not knowing Jeff Buckley was dead.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:31 PM
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ME TOO


Posted by: OPINIONATED ZOMBIE JEFF BUCKLEY | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:32 PM
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Jeff Buckley, the Jackson C. Frank of his generation?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:33 PM
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111: "One of These Days" is pretty much already there.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:34 PM
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NEVER MIND, STANDPIPE-PWNED


Posted by: O. Z. J. B. | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:36 PM
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112.3:It may already be happening. On a hunch I went back to an interview/piece he had done with Mac Baucus back in March at the Atlantic. EK said then that Baucus would be the father of whatever health care bill we got. Absolutely critical, central, determinative Baucus was.

I went back because last week Ezra as much as said we just need to ignore whatever comes out of Finance. It won't matter, we can dump everything Baucus does when we get to conference.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:37 PM
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114: bob, I'm apparently very seriously out of it, since I didn't know who Jeff Buckley was in the first place. It's not really something to be proud of.

I will say this: a Canadian friend of mine recently asked, "Who the hell is Jon Stewart?"

So there you go.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:41 PM
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The Curious Cultural Journey of Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah". From Michael Barthel's Experience Music Project presentation.

On the Buckley version:

The effect was to flatten the song emotionally, to take out all the different Hallelujahs Cohen depicted and reduce them to one: the cold and broken, which appears here twice. Even the "you don't really care for music" dig sounds more wronged than cutting, and the sex is now the ecstasy of the brooding artiste, an image Cohen always seemed careful to subvert.

Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:41 PM
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Can I snatch (save) that song from youtube?

http://www.mediafire.com/?wtzjnyzv4lm


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:43 PM
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122: Thanks, apo. Much appreciated.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:53 PM
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Rufus, if I may call him that, sings with respect. Damn, I like his voice. I want to say: he's a folksinger.

I was going to say, I just listened to the various versions and, of those, I liked the Rufus Wainwright version the best because it didn't try to up the emotional intensity. It just treated it as a good song. I like parsimon's use of "respect." He doesn't claim ownership of the song, he just tries to do it justice.

I'm not sure I think that, in general, he's a folksinger, but that's a nice performance.

I like the original Leonard Cohen version better than the version linked.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:56 PM
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121: Thanks, interesting read, especially in light of the whole "Christmas Number One"/three versions on the charts simultaneously phenomenon from last December. I'd be interested to see both the charts and the narrative updated.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 5:57 PM
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The Curious Cultural Journey of Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah". From Michael Barthel's Experience Music Project presentation.

I also enjoyed that. I haven't listened to all of the samples yet, but I particularly appreciated that somebody set out to answer the question, "why did this particular Leonard Cohen song suddenly become so popular." And he does a good job.

It isn't my favorite Cohen song.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:01 PM
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This post and the Cover post keep sounding to me like Saw and Saw II. Is it a franchise?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:04 PM
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Wait a second, Ezra drowned himself in the Mississippi?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:10 PM
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||?

Doin Pandora tonight, "stuff like Azure Ray".
Either they are very good, or I have no taste, but they never fail me. 1 dislike in 20.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:11 PM
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Better Than Ezra ran through the wet grass, fell a step behind, and then drowned in the Mississippi.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:16 PM
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All of them?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:28 PM
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Oh wow. Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah is wonderful. Thanks, Standpipe. I'd never heard it before, for some reason.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:39 PM
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The cover by the author of the essay linked at 121 is an impressive departure.

MP3 link.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:41 PM
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133: Well that was...frenetic.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 6:52 PM
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The song will be embedded in my musical head throughout the day tomorrow, I fear, which may not be for the best. Standpipe is beginning to remind me of ogged. I hope there's some dancing somewhere along the way.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:09 PM
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Tim Buckley was astoundingly hot. And then he died.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:26 PM
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This thread inspired me to go back and listen to "One Man Guy" (and the rest of Poses). I don't know why but I can listen to that song over and over again. In general, I like Loudon's songwriting better than Rufus's, but Rufus's singing, so perhaps that is it. And then there's the tickle of knowing that Martha (who created a so-so album that I also seem to own) is doing back up. A family affair that I appreciate.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:49 PM
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Standpipe is beginning to remind me of ogged.

Odd. I don't even have a Whole Foods.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:50 PM
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I have a Whole Foods, but I don't go any more. The neighborhood is getting rough.

P.S. Is it bad that, of all the people named in the OP, I've only heard of Cohen.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:51 PM
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My Whole Foods is eight miles wide.

I like the song "Poses" a lot.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:54 PM
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Is it bad that, of all the people named in the OP, I've only heard of Cohen

Yes and no. He should be the most famous out of the three based on his body of work. But Buckley and Wainwright are hardly obscure! Get out there more.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 7:56 PM
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I confess that I too was unclear on whether Buckley was alive; it never occurred to me to masturbate to him, so it wasn't an issue. Anyway, I get all those guys mixed up. Buckley, dead. Elliott Smith, dead. Beck is still alive, right?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:03 PM
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It costs a whole dollar to buy new music. So, I'm just listening to Foreigner most of the time.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:04 PM
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139: Approved wording is, "I confess that, of all the people named in the OP, I've only heard of Cohen."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:07 PM
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But William F. was the sexiest one of all.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:08 PM
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Now that I've clicked the link, I realize I had no idea about Leonard Cohen either. I was thinking of Bernstein.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:09 PM
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Beck is still alive.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:09 PM
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What about Jeff Beck, is he alive?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:12 PM
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Now that I've clicked the link, I realize I had no idea about Leonard Cohen either. I was thinking of Bernstein.

I was going to ask how old you were, but then I realized I should just remark as to how I did not realize Pittsburgh was completely cut off from the airwaves.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:13 PM
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"I've only heard of Cohen."

Actually, "I've heard only of Cohen" is probably more accurate.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:14 PM
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"[Dead or Alive?] tracks whether famous people are still alive or whether they have passed away."


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:15 PM
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Claude Lévi-Strauss: alive!


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:18 PM
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Jeff Beck is alive.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:18 PM
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Come on, ask me a tough one.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:19 PM
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Tom Lehrer, who seems to entertain all 6 of us.

Lehrer's "Irish Ballad" put Iris into tears, and she begged us never to play it again.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:21 PM
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Beck and Jeff Beck are alive, but are they, you know, living the life? Isn't that the most important question?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:21 PM
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Juan Perón: dead!


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:22 PM
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Okay, NOS, how about Olivia de Havilland? Is she alive? What about Vivien Leigh?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:23 PM
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155: This drove me to tears as a kid. The only sadder song was "Tell Laura I Love Her".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:25 PM
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Generalissimo Francisco Franco: Dead!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:25 PM
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They're all dead to me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:27 PM
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It's unable to tell me if Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, is dead. The Internet fails me again.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:27 PM
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155: I'm really tempted to play that whole album for the girls, but it would upset my wife. As it is, I introduced them to Doc Watson's classic debut album last week, and they made me play "Omie Wise" over and over again until they had it memorized.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:27 PM
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149: I think it is more 'me' than 'Pittsburgh' that is musically cut-off. I did go hear people play rock on cellos the other week. It was pretty good. Also it was free, if a bit rainy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:28 PM
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It's also unable to determine if nosflow is alive. Intriguing.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:29 PM
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I'm dismayed to not find an entry for myself in there. Am I dead or alive? What if I'm like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:30 PM
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It doesn't know pseudonyms. Try using your real name, "Steve McNair".


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:31 PM
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What if I'm like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense?

Then you've like had sex with Demi Moore probably!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:32 PM
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Am I the only one who hears/reads "Steve McNair" and thinks of the depilatory product? "Hoots mon! Ye'll be as smooth as Glesgae haggis!"


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:34 PM
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169: Yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:36 PM
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155: This drove me to tears as a kid.

Interestingly, to cheer her up after the Lehrer, we sang that song to her! I don't know why that worked, but it did.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:38 PM
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||
This is almost on-topic for the other thread, but that seems to be dead.

Anyhoo, when I checked Facebook this morning, there was a message from a former colleague who was complaining about his housemate and the big fight they had had. Said former housemate is my current colleague. Former & current had an on-again/off-again relationship for a few years, moved in together, broke it off for good, but still lived together. (Le fucked-up, n'est ce pas?) So I casually asked current colleague (who happens to be scorchingly hot and 12-15 years younger than former colleague) about it, and she had not heard about it. Former colleague had taken down the FB update in the meantime. Current colleague was totally scandalized to hear that her dirty laundry was being aired. In the course of our conversation, I shared with current colleague that former colleague had said fucked-up things about her at a party a couple of months ago (this I heard 3rd-hand from Former Colleague #2). Which made her even more upset.
So Mineshaft, did I commit an ethical blunder? "It was like that when I got here" seems to be the Homer Simpsonism* that applies.

*Played by Donald Sutherland in the 1975 film version, but he seems like J.K. Simmons, does he not?

||>


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:44 PM
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OMG I just remembered I totally have had sex with Demi Moore! And I keep meeting Olivia Williams for dinner at this fancy Philly restaurant, but she doesn't talk to me the whole meal! This is going to make Thanksgiving awk-ward.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:46 PM
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This is going to make Thanksgiving awk-ward.

If "already dead" isn't an excuse to blow off tiresome family Thanksgiving, I don't know what is.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:48 PM
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So Rufus Wainwright would be the exact person to call if you wanted to fix someone's little red wagon.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:51 PM
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And I keep meeting Olivia Williams for dinner at this fancy Philly restaurant, but she doesn't talk to me the whole meal!

Maybe that's how she had you programmed at the Dollhouse.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:52 PM
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172: Said former housemate is my current

Sorry this was really confusing to obfuscate.


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:53 PM
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175: Per Google, I am the first person to think of this.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:55 PM
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I wish I knew in what respect minnie's remark was clever.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 8:58 PM
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Rufous. You take it from there.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:00 PM
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Ah so.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:04 PM
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There is no denying that that is clever.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:05 PM
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Wait, it just occurred to me that the title of this post might be a riff on the Tampa defense under Monte Kiffin. Is that even possible?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:05 PM
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Among the zillion covers of the H song on YouTube, I did like this one from Arooj Aftab, a young Pakistani woman (it not 10 minutes long, it seems to be simply repeated). Some other cover lore, apparently the one by the Norwegians mentioned in the link in 121 is the most viewed YouTube of a cover song ever. There are a few Lucy Lawless covers as well (searching them out left as an exercise for the motivated reader).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:08 PM
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the H song

Hmmmm.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:10 PM
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Google searches seem to continue to disappoint linkwise.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:13 PM
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Don't know why, but I've started skipping past the murder ballads recently. For the past few months, I haven't wanted to hear Omie and her sisters murdered one more time. I always thought Clementine was a sad song too. I take lyrics literally.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:32 PM
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"I take lyrics literally."

And then you found out that mountains weren't really purple.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:37 PM
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And then you found out that mountains weren't really purple.

But they totally are.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:39 PM
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187: I'm with you: Clementine is indeed a sad song!


Posted by: honigessig | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:40 PM
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189: Looks 'shopped.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:42 PM
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did I commit an ethical blunder?

Depends on who you owe loyalty to to whom you owe loyalty. And your sense of ethics.

There's a general principle of "First do no harm/interference" which I would apply in cases of colleagues, former or current. Not everyone would agree.

However, since you did decide to speak up, the question becomes whether you owe particular loyalty to one person or the other -- like, for example, one of them is a much closer friend. Or whether you have a general guiding ethical principle, such as "It's not kosher to talk trash about somebody behind their back, and posting Facebook updates to mutual friends totally counts as talking trash."

If you want grounds for ignoring this, remember that I'm on record as going to extraordinary lengths to avoid this kind of personal entanglement in the lives of my colleagues.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:44 PM
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Yeah, Clementine always bothered me a bit as a kid as well. But it seems to have nothing on its apparent precursor which is full on creepy in a number of different ways.

Her lips were like two luscious beefsteaks
Dipp'd in tomato sauce and brine,
And like the cashmere goatess covering
Was the fine wool of Clementine.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:44 PM
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Clementine always bothered me a bit as a kid as well

One of the most creepy and horrible experiences of my adult life was having a train conductor with whom I'd had a single, casual conversation track me down at my workplace. When I picked up the phone, he started singing that song.

God, that is a singularly awful memory. I can still remember the total free-fall in the pit of my stomach, and the terror of how on earth he had managed to track down my last name and exact location.


Posted by: Lucinda Garfield | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:47 PM
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||

Has anyone ever read "Literacy Among the Ruins", by Frank Gannon? It's a first-person account of Gannon trying to teach a remedial English class (with little success). I've just discovered, thanks to the Internet, that it has met to the cruelest fate imaginable -- it's regularly assigned as reading in remedial English classes.

|>


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:49 PM
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192: I owe the most allegiance, by far, to the current colleague (younger, female, more aggrieved). The stuff she told me today about what former colleague has been doing was pretty scary: classic mind-fuck tactics.

I had been trying to adhere to the Hippocratic principle, but it's just getting out of hand. Former colleague gets creepier and creepier with every interaction. The last girl I saw him with was clearly stoned out of her gourd. And he was apparently putting the moves on her. Squick!

I don't know what else to do other than offer current colleague my unqualified support and a place to crash if she can't stay at home. (No ulterior motives, plenty of people at my house to chaperone.)

I probably shouldn't have said as much as I did, huh?


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:50 PM
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Holy crap, Lucinda. That's terrifying. I'm hoping that it only happened the once and then he disappeared again.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:54 PM
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Naw, WHT, I think you did the right thing. It's on FB; it's public. If it were just some drunken comments at a bar, I'd let it slide, but you don't pull that shit on FB.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:56 PM
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Yes, thank God. I don't remember what I said to him, only that he asked if I was upset by what he'd done and I said yes, and told him not to contact me again. And he didn't.

Although somewhere in the back of my mind is the awareness that I am extremely Googleable -- presidential pseudonym not withstanding -- and the weird fear that even years later he might decide to track me down again.

It's somewhat mitigated by the fact that I think he was severely socially awkward and tone-deaf more than actively malicious.


Posted by: Lucinda Garfield | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 9:58 PM
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(Further to 198, I'm assuming it wasn't like "'s bitch roommate ate all the salsa >:-(.")


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:01 PM
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Eating all the salsa is right out. Capital offense in my household.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:02 PM
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So, what, you always have these little jars of salsa that no one can finish?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:04 PM
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'Cause they've got a word for that, and that word is wasteful.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:05 PM
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202: Those are the ones you combine to make nachos for the band that just showed up at 3am. It's like you've never lived, neb.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:06 PM
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I have never lived. That is true.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:07 PM
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It seems this thread has been cleverly designed to demonstrate that no one here reads my blog.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:29 PM
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205: That would explain why you don't show up in the Dead or Alive site.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:29 PM
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206: No one reads mine either. It's what's supposed to happen with your blog.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:31 PM
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Yeah, I don't actually care. I mean, I don't even link to it under my name anymore.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:33 PM
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Still, it's interesting that the thread has so far wandered through three topics on which I have relevant posts.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:33 PM
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I read yours, Stanley.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:36 PM
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I don't.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:37 PM
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211: Well, you shouldn't. It's complete drivel, and my cob-logger has seemingly abandoned me again to make wine. What a jerk.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:38 PM
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So many blogs go unread. Such a waste.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:40 PM
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Eh, most of those blogs are drivel.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:41 PM
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+s


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:42 PM
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215: I believe essear was making a funny about a particular blog, teo.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:44 PM
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Not very funny, really, but it's the best I can do.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:44 PM
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I see that, yes.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:45 PM
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I don't read that one either, of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:45 PM
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Its good days are long behind it.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:46 PM
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In other news, Roswell kind of sucks.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:55 PM
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I mean, it's not terrible, but it's not great either.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:55 PM
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I read teo's blog! (All of them, even.) And neb's, though I confess to often being confused. However, I'm not sure I was previously aware of Stanley's.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:56 PM
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Aw, thanks, paren.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 10:57 PM
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224: Hold out for Ryan's posts. He's the real payoff.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:01 PM
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I just looked at the stats for my blog for the first time in a while, and I think my mom's reading it now. Maybe she'll wander over here. Hi, Mom!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:09 PM
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Everyone is no doubt wondering to whom they can expect to listen tomorrow. They can listen to the following big bands/large ensembles/jazz orchestras:

Brotherhood of Breath
Otomo Yoshihide New Jazz Orchestra
Never Enough Hope
Mucca Pazza
Darcy James Argue's Secret Society
Territory Band
Adam Lane's Full Throttle Orchestra
Motor Totemist Guild
Keefe Jackson's Project Project
New York Underground Orchestra
Szilárd Mezei Ensemble
Vinny Golia Large Ensemble

As well as music for theater by FM Einheit. And some other stuff.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:12 PM
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Where is your cob-logger making wine these days, Stanley?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:16 PM
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228: Not even a post this time?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:18 PM
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229: It's a small outfit, and he just got the nod as head winemaker. Also: its name is bad enough that I should e-mail you, which I will do forthwith. Anyhow, I'm curious to see what comes out of this very wet summer.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:20 PM
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228: Not even a post this time?

Even I have shame enough to assume that a weekly post about me me me isn't going to be of lasting interest.

But I don't have shame enough not to mention it at all.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:22 PM
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232: I've enjoyed the show when I can listen along and reiterate my desire for mp3 versions after the fact. But you still suck eggs.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:23 PM
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I actually did make a recording of the 7/14 show, but I wasn't aware that they were generally wanted and haven't done any since then. Too bad, since the last two were (IMO) really good. I can record the next one, if you want.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:26 PM
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Stanley supports me in email. Anyway, good for Ryan. Wet summers are a challenge we don't have to face out here. Mildew! Rot! Horrors. Incidentally, anyone who's in Portland August 27 should come to the fermentation festival; we'll be pouring.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:28 PM
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234: You should, I have two on my iPod that show up randomly via shuffle and tend to stay on.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:30 PM
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Hey, teo, that post you linked to about Hallelujah was interesting, and yet demented.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:32 PM
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And that comma splice was like your bonus gift, neb.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:33 PM
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You sure do know how to treat me right.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:33 PM
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Yes to a recording. I'm never able to hear much of the show.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:35 PM
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237: Uh, thanks. I believe it was also linked somewhere in this thread.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:38 PM
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I confess to reading the post title in a John Madden voice as a football strategy I don't understand.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:49 PM
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241: Years of experience has taught me not to follow any link found in the comment section here.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:49 PM
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240: That's because most of it is out the range of human hearing. Very experimental.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:51 PM
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You know, neb, my daughters' duet the other day wouldn't have been out of place on your show.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:57 PM
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243: Probably a good strategy in general. In any case, it's comment 121 of this thread that links to that post.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-10-09 11:57 PM
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Clementine is indeed a sad song!

No way, man. There's a sad interlude in the middle when she drowns and all, but it totally ends on a happy note ("...till I kissed her little sister / and forgot my Clementine").


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 5:36 AM
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243: Years of experience has taught me not to follow any link found in the comment section here.

I came for the swimming posts and stayed for the links in the comment section


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 5:42 AM
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247: I don't recall ever hearing that particular verse which I read about last night. Apparently I was a protected child, The verse about the little sister was often left out of folk song books intended for children, presumably because it seemed morally questionable.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 5:47 AM
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249. Like the lesser known third verse of "Bobby Shaftoe":

Bobby Shaftoe's gettin' a bairn
For to dangle on his airm;
In his airm and on his knee,
Bonny Bobby Shaftoe.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 5:59 AM
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249: As a teenager, I once got to attend a meeting of the fraternal organization of which my father was a member (I think they invited the local Boy Scout troop or something). I learned that one of the regular activities at the meetings was a group sing. When the song-leader solicited suggestions for songs, a certain senior member piped up and said "We haven't sung 'Clementine' in a long time. Let's sing that."

So the assembled membership (which corresponded almost precisely to what the electoral rolls would have looked like back when there was a property qualification) belted out Clementine. There was a notably enthusiastic crescendo when it came to the stanza about the little sister--the existence of which came as a revelation to me at that moment.

Afterwards, my father confided to me that the aforementioned member suggested "Clementine" at every group sing, always with the preamble that "We haven't sung Clementine in a long time."


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 6:08 AM
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Holy crap I never knew the lyrics to that song. NO MORE MASTURBATING TO HUGGING DARLING CLEMENTINE!

Freaky, man.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 6:13 AM
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It's the Old, Weird America, Sifu.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 7:18 AM
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As opposed to the new, rational, much admired from afar America?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 7:49 AM
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Thanks. We're very fond of Scotland on our end.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 7:51 AM
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Heh heh.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 7:53 AM
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Mostly just the whisky, but Edinburgh was very nice.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 7:57 AM
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Everyone everywhere is a bit crazy, but the current US [the post 2000 US] does seem pretty out there by global standards of public irrationality.*

* everywhere probably has the 30% crazification factor, but in most places the ancien regime keeps the lid on 'em.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:02 AM
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ttaM is thinking of the New, Terrifying America. Bastard offspring of the Recent, Stifling America and the Now, Open-Minded America.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:14 AM
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Also, to clarify, 254 was just supposed to be a flippant joke, rather than a 'die America, die!' comment.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:17 AM
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Years of experience has taught me not to follow any link found in the comment section here.

You're missing out, Walt.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:21 AM
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In that folk music can be argued to feature the stories and perspectives of otherwise underrepresented or misrepresented strata of society, I submit that Wainwright is very much a folk singer. Many, many of his songs are accessible to anyone who's had drama, yes, but much of his work reflects queer or otherwise culturally borderline experiences in a way much popular music does not.

I'm pretty much a fanboy, though, so if someone popped up and said, "You know, I think Wainwright would be a pretty shite astronaut," I would immediately begin formulating a defense of his career as a decorated aviator and scientist.

So many blogs go unread. Such a waste.

We're just saving them for when the internet comes over at 3am, at which time we'll pour them all together to make one big blog.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:29 AM
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How the hell are we supposed to read your blog, teo? It's in Arabic.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:44 AM
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258: On some level it's point-and-laugh funny, and on another it's fucking terrifying.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:56 AM
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263: The Islamofascist conspiracy to dhimmify America is, alas, running a few years behind schedule, but don't you fret, we'll have you speaking reading Arabic real soon. If you know what's good for you, that is.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 8:57 AM
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264: Our % of the world's spending on military and % of working nukes is the terrifying part. If you have a big gun there is a lot of prssure to shoot it. (As apo surely knows.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:01 AM
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Everyone everywhere is a bit crazy, but the current US [the post 2000 US] does seem pretty out there by global standards of public irrationality.

Doesn't square with my experience at all. With rare and noble exceptions (I'll concede the Netherlands and maybe parts of Scandinavia), other countries are every bit as crazy as we are. The major difference is that they aren't economic and military superpowers. I don't believe for a moment that if, say, Brazil or Australia had the wherewithal, they'd screw up just as spectacularly. Our crazy is on display for all the world to see, that's all.

That said, you could certainly cherry pick examples to show that the American public is an outlier on certain measures of irrationality (e.g. global warming denialism). That's a product of our particular political fissures. I contend that you find an analogous example to condemn just about any country, e.g. % of the population that believes that GMO's and cell phone towers are proven carcinogens, or % of the population that believes that a Zionist conspiracy controls global finance.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:08 AM
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267: "they's" s/b "they wouldn't".


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:09 AM
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re: 267

Really? I think you're wrong on that one. Quite hard to prove who is right, though!


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:12 AM
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Quite hard to prove who is right, though!

Indeed. We can both only extrapolate from experience. My experience tells me that every nation I've gotten to know has certain blindspots in their perception of empirical reality, certain received wisdom that seems bizarre to the international observer, certain political sacred cows that are unique to their situation, and certain consensus views that conflate national self-interest with universal moral truths.

It's easy to tut-tut about the ignorance or irrationality of Americans because our characteristic flaws are so well publicized, and because they are so incomprehensible to a certain sort of European who takes contingent features of their contemporary society as normative for any civilized people.

/defensive


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:22 AM
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the American public is an outlier on certain measures of irrationality

The American public is an outlier on most of these (compared with the rest of the industrialized first world, anyhow) because of the dogged persistence of primitive superstition and belief in magic religion here. That's the key to American exceptionalism: 2/3 of the country or more is still stuck in the 18th century. Which is, indeed, exceptional.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:31 AM
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And yet, the UK is the country that has maintained state-run Christian schools until the 21st century, and responded to Christianity no longer actually being the state religion in any meaningful way by starting to maintain state-run Muslim schools as well.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:51 AM
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because of the dogged persistence of religion a particularly obscurantist form of religion and a cynical political organization prepared to take advantage of it.

Thus, the US shows up as an outlier (again, among First World countries, i.e. a fraction of the global population) on questions like the age of the earth and the origins of life.

Go to another country and find an issue where a powerful political constituency sees an opportunity to exploit ignorance, and you will see rampant ignorance. Examples abound: Japanese who believe that their intestines are biologically incapable of digesting foreign rice; French who believe that displacing the French language around the world is a conscious and salient objective of Anglo-American foreign policy; Germans who believe that the typical Turkish family in Germany actively prevents their daughters from learning German so that they don't marry a local, etc. etc.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:52 AM
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re: 270

You'll note that in my 258, I'm fine with the idea that everywhere has crazy people. The point is about the _public_ culture, and I think it's pretty indisputable that the US is an outlier compared to most other wealthy first world nations.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:53 AM
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Actively prevents its daughters.

The rice thing and the language-of-diplomacy thing strike me as much weirder than the last one.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:53 AM
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The point is about the _public_ culture, and I think it's pretty indisputable that the US is an outlier compared to most other wealthy first world nations.

And "the public culture" is synonymous with "what I perceive as an outsider", correct? It's even harder to disagree with something taking place in Ttam Ntargacm's brain!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:55 AM
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Oh come on. If you think the right-wing US media is like the right-wing media in other countries you are sadly deluded.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 9:57 AM
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Oh come on? Aren't there a ton of countries who are trying not to be hijacked by extremists, and one of the battlefronts is the media?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:01 AM
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that the US is an outlier compared to most other wealthy first world nations.

Never mind.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:02 AM
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In a way, I no longer think of the US as being fully first world anymore.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:03 AM
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I'm not saying other countries don't have huge numbers of loons, or that people don't have all kinds of wacky beliefs, but in most of these countries those nutjobs haven't hijacked a major political party and a large chunk of the media.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:03 AM
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277: Well, yeah, if by public culture you mean what comes through the media, then we're totally nuts. Then again, Japanese television.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:04 AM
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The point is about the _public_ culture, and I think it's pretty indisputable that the US is an outlier compared to most other wealthy first world nations.

Since you've just walked back the claims in 258 significantly (viz, "global standards" becomes "most other wealthy first world nations"), I should probably declare victory and drop it. But I'm still not convinced that the claim is true in any meaningful sense except the sense that our public irrationality is more visible and has more capacity to do harm outside our borders.

America has its version of crazy, which is quite jarring to a secular, left-leaning European. But other countries have their version of crazy, too. Look at the squabbling between linguistic groups in Belgium. Or the deference given to riotous farmers in France. Or the recission of Germany's Article 16 protections for asylum-seekers in the face of neo-Nazi violence. Or the insistence of successive UK governments on maintaining a domestic arms manufacturing industry. Or the election and re-election of Silvio Berlusconi. None of it would be possible without a heaping helping of public irrationality.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:05 AM
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in most of these countries those nutjobs haven't hijacked a major political party and a large chunk of the media

So we're omitting Russia and Italy from the sample?


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:07 AM
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re: 283

Yeah, because by global standards in 258 I was clearly implying Turkmenistan and Haiti, rather than Canada, France, Germany, the UK, etc. Never mind.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:07 AM
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272: Belief in God, UK 38%, US 92%.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:08 AM
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re: 284

Russia, definitely.

With Italy, on the other hand, you have a point.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:08 AM
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I no longer think of the US as being fully first world anymore.

Word.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:10 AM
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Our crazy is on display for all the world to see

Hovertext


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:13 AM
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Our crazy is on display for all the world to see

All the federales say they could have had us any day. They only let us slip away, out of kindness, I suppose.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:23 AM
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I really think, however, that there is a qualitative difference in the craziness of thinking things like "we must maintain a domestic arms industry in the UK" and "French farmers deserve large amounts of public support and subsidy" and "social equality demands that we have quotas of French-speaking civil servants in all government departments" on the one hand, and "the earth was created 6,000 years ago" and "Barack Obama is the Antichrist" on the other.
The first set are arguably bad policy but I don't think they really count as actually insane in the way that the second set do.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:32 AM
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283
But I'm still not convinced that the claim is true in any meaningful sense except the sense that our public irrationality is more visible and has more capacity to do harm outside our borders.

But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:33 AM
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Yeah, I think the US wins the crazy race due to (1) the religious thing apo keeps pointing to; and, (2) simple signal-to-noise ratio compared to any other country.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:34 AM
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It would be funny if, owing to a handful of agnostic Swiss guards or something, the US ended up with higher believe-in-God numbers than Vatican City.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:35 AM
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re: 291

Quite.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:38 AM
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294
It would be funny if, owing to a handful of agnostic Swiss guards or something, the US ended up with higher believe-in-God numbers than Vatican City.

It would only take 45 of them. That's almost half the guards, but apparently there are also 43 "other lay persons" who have Vatican citizenship. It's not impossible. (This also assumes that being agnostic is sufficient to count as disbelief in god, but...)


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:43 AM
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In that folk music can be argued to feature the stories and perspectives of otherwise underrepresented or misrepresented strata of society,

Oh, good lord, no.

I mean, yes, that describes a compelling feature of folk music, but that would be a terrible definition of folk music.

It's funny, I've been thinking about writing a post trying to work out a definition of folk music and realizing that it's difficult to find a good working definition (particularly one that doesn't automatically exclude all contemporary music). But I still think there's an important distinction to be made between singer/songwriters and folk music, and that what you're describing sounds much more like a description of singer/songwriters.

I do like the quote at that link, "If I sing something not the way you're used to hearing it, and you think I've got the tune or the words wrong, then it isn't folk. On the other hand, if you think I'm singing a variant-then it's folk."


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:44 AM
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Quite hard to prove who is right, though!

It's like you've never even seen Trading Places.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:55 AM
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The Eddie Murphy one or the house pr0n one?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:56 AM
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Re: Other people's crazy
Jorg Haider. Jean-Marie LePen. Ian Paisley. Plus all those ultra-nationalists in the former East Bloc countries. Bad as the US is, we do not currently have roving gangs of right-wingers who go into train stations and beat up anyone who looks "leftist", as many of my friends report seeing happen in western Europe.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 10:58 AM
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I think the US wins the crazy race

We're number one! We're number one! USA! USA!

I mean, yes, that describes a compelling feature of folk music, but that would be a terrible definition of folk music.

Quite true, and it's indisputably a quandary. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin with an all-encompassing-and-accurate definition. I'm just slicing it one specific way to the advantage of my fanboydom. This is, after all, the internets.

I love that quote you pull from the link.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:13 AM
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I'm just slicing it one specific way

Arguably, I realized after I posted my comment, Rufus is a "folksinger" in the same way that Loudon is -- they're both singer/songwriters.

Also, Dick Guaghan really is a great live performer (I was looking for Leon Rosselson songs, because I was thinking about that quote from him, via the linked post, "[T]hey are not folk songs. ... These songs are self-conscious rather than class-conscious, self-centered rather than community-centered, personal rather than impersonal.").


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:23 AM
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299: The one where a couple of old guys throw the USA out into the street and give all of its wealth and power to Brazil. Hilarious hijinks ensue, with Costa Rica in the Jamie Lee Curtis role.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:23 AM
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we do not currently have roving gangs of right-wingers who go into train stations and beat up anyone who looks "leftist"

That's just because no one takes the train in the US.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:24 AM
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I honestly wouldn't know where to begin with an all-encompassing-and-accurate definition.

I was going to suggest "Music that either was composed, or plausibly could have been composed, in a house without electricity", but upon further reflection, I realize that would capture the works of Beethoven and Wagner as well.

Alternatively: "Music that can be best appreciated when the listener is sober and the musician drunk."


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:25 AM
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305.last: That doesn't exist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:27 AM
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This made me think of Apostropher:

prince live in columbia, nc, 1981

It is pretty sweet.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:29 AM
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306 annex: Maybe the Wiggles, but only because their audience shouldn't drink.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:31 AM
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The one where a couple of old guys throw the USA out into the street and give all of its wealth and power to Brazil

The scene where Brazil invites the whole favela to party in the White House is priceless.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:31 AM
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we do not currently have roving gangs of right-wingers who go into train stations and beat up anyone who looks "leftist", as many of my friends report seeing happen in western Europe.

No, US rightwingers just go straight to firearms.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:34 AM
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297: particularly one that doesn't automatically exclude all contemporary music

I was puzzling about this a bit the other day when I was going through our CDs and came across a Phil Ochs concert CD that I had forgotten had been put out by Folkways. Not necessarily inappropriate, but it did make me stop and think.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:37 AM
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307: Pretty sure that must be Columbia, *South* Carolina. Columbia, NC is less than 1/100th the size of the one over the border.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:38 AM
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Maybe the Wiggles

I'm pretty sure they're on amyl nitrite, not booze.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:42 AM
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313: Could be. At least when they picked dancers and costumes, it's clear they didn't forget about dad. Unlike Elmo.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:44 AM
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At least when they picked dancers and costumes, it's clear they didn't forget about dad.

Pervert.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:46 AM
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(Anglo-American) folk music = Child's Ballads, other such antiques and curios (e.g. sea shantys). and the direct imitators.

That is all


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 11:59 AM
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Pete Seeger singing "If I Had a Hammer" is not folk.

Bob Dylan singing "Blowiin in the Wind" is not folk.

Steeleye Span doing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" is not folk.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:04 PM
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317: Play this right, Bob, and you can pivot the thread to a discussion of the Chicago Seven trial!


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:07 PM
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But Fairport doing "Tam Lin" even with an electric guitar & violin jam is folk.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:08 PM
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Bad as the US is, we do not currently have roving gangs of right-wingers who go into train stations and beat up anyone who looks "leftist", as many of my friends report seeing happen in western Europe.

I'd be extremely sceptical about this. I suspect you'd search long and hard to find accounts of violent gangs in train stations that weren't descriptions of football violence.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:24 PM
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320: Isn't 'football* violence' evidence of one type of crazy that is more common in places that aren't the United States? Not that we don't have the occasional riot over sports.

* or soccer. Whichever.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:27 PM
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re: 321

Yeah, possibly. It, football violence, is still a fairly persistent problem in some countries. Not so much in the UK anymore, though, although it does still go on it's not at the level it has been in the past.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:29 PM
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321: I think of so-called "Hockey Dads" when I think of sports violence in the US.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:29 PM
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Dude. I read about football violence in a book and thought it was utterly bizarre and horrible and completely outside anything I'd expect to exist.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:39 PM
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324: I read that book too ("Among the Thugs"). That doesn't happen anymore in the UK. Maybe in Croatia.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:40 PM
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I mean, I've been close to riots a couple times, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to be a common thing that happens after sporting events. They should be a special occasion with someone you love, like championships or something. And more flames than beating people up.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:42 PM
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Just push the flaming object off the roof.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:46 PM
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We don't need no water.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:48 PM
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Dutch friends have shown me opinion sections in major newspapers where folks were calmly discussing whether non-Dutch people ought to continue to be able to live there. Clearly xenophobic funtime is a game we get to play in the US too, but they at least have to be indirect about it. I also remember talking with European friends back in 2003 about Austria's exciting new fascist prime minister. They were saying things like "Well, the prime minister in Austria isn't really that powerful." Dude, why are you equivacating? Fascist prime minister!

That said, Ttam's original point was clearly correct, though I think that has to do with a) the size and visibility of our public sphere, b) this particular moment of desparation manifesting as especially crazy right-wing freakoutery.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 12:54 PM
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Part of it is the sheer size and diffusion of the crazy market here. In order to achieve the economy of scale necessary to turn a profit nationally, you really have to be Big Crazy. Little regional crazies may prosper, but they can only string together a couple tottering newspapers.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:02 PM
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Little regional crazies may prosper, but they can only string together a couple tottering newspapers.

Thanks to clustering and network effects, you still have particular regions of world-beating crazy, where the heritage of centuries of crazy sustains a competitive local manufacturing base, e.g. the Balkans and Ulster. Their success in the export market has been mixed, though.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:12 PM
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folks were calmly discussing whether non-Dutch people ought to continue to be able to live there

Of course I won't remember any of the specifics at this point but a couple-three weeks ago I heard NPR interview the guy behind a ballot initiative in California that would strip access to public services (including schools?) from the US-born children of illegal immigrants. He said, in the interview, that those kids aren't citizens since their parents weren't citizens, another variation of this bizarrely retro grandfathering that the chief birther lady keeps wanting to do to Obama whenever she's interviewed. (I gaped when she told Colbert that Obama couldn't be a citizen since one of his parents was not a citizen, which raises the question of how she, herself, is a citizen or, in fact, anyone, ever, if one goes back far enough.)

When the NPR reporter pointed out the Constitution's use of "natural born citizen," he said that does not mean that just being born here makes one a citizen. When the NPR reporter pushed back and said that has certainly been the way it's been interpreted for, at this point, an extremely long time, he was extremely aggressively condescending in his rejection of this notion - well, aggressively condescending by the standards of otherwise polite conversation.

I was stunned that he'd get out there and say something so patently crazy. I mean, the Citizenship Clause is right there in the 14th amendment, right off the bat, with absolutely no wiggle room that my admittedly unlawyerly mind can find.

(On preview, and with Google, I see that his name is Ted H/lt/n and his theory is that illegal immigrants are not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States and thus their US-born children aren't citizens but it seems to me that argument would raise the question of by what right the US government does anything to illegal immigrants, including deporting them, if they aren't subject to US jurisdiction in the first place. However, I imagine that there are complex judicial parsings of the words being used that I miss at my Rockford Files level of legal literacy.)


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:45 PM
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Arlo Guthrie singing Can't Help Falling in Love is folk music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSF89swJ9IU


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:46 PM
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332: The epistemology of political crazy is an under-explored area.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:51 PM
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332: The only silver lining on that whole stinky turd is that the Orly Taitz has a really funny name.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 1:59 PM
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In my optimistic moments, I believe that Obama has this figured out, and he's doing a rope-a-dope all through August, letting the crazy build to a frenzied crescendo, and preparing to split and/or tarnish the opposition with them, as Nixon did with the disorder of the late 1960s. But then I recall my Rick Perlstein, and remember that right-wing violence was equally prevalent in that period, but the arbiters of political narrative determined that only the excesses of the DFH's would be remembered.

So I dunno. I'm still holding out hope that Obama will be an FDR-like figure who will leave the opposition sputtering with impotent rage while he builds a commanding majority for his party. If he gets health care passed this autumn (and doesn't get sucked into an Afghan quagmire), I'd still give him decent odds on the FDR thing.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:06 PM
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I never know how to harvest the silver lining from my stinky turds.

Another donation for the boys at the sewage treatment plant.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:12 PM
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336: pp, the eternal optimist.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:13 PM
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JRoth, you let them dry, then burn them. The silver will be left behind.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:16 PM
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I'm trying to guess whether the crazy anger will burn itself out. How long can they make signs and t-shirts and attend rallies? What sustains them? Is it source-based, does it need constant inputs like rage from talk shows? Does it require other fuels, like having authority figures respond to them? If authority figures ignore them, will they stop feeling rewarded?

I mean, if the history is something like "for a year after Obama was elected, reactionary crazy people shouted a lot at rallies, but then it died down", I'm not so worried. But I don't know whether this stuff builds or fades out. In the small town I watched closely, crazy people raged and fought at meetings for three years, but now that energy has died out.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:17 PM
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What sustains them?

The president of the US is not white.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:21 PM
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re: 341

Yeah, although I'm sure that's part of it, I think it was more or less inevitable. It seems, after Clinton (and the way Gore and Kerry were spoken of, too) that any Democrat elected would be on the receiving end of a fair bit of hate.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:22 PM
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How long will that keep them mad enough to attend meetings? Attending meetings is hard.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:23 PM
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332: There's still some wiggle room, surprisingly.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:23 PM
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I mean, if the history is something like "for a year after Obama was elected, reactionary crazy people shouted a lot at rallies, but then it died down", I'm not so worried.

The rage at FDR burned on for 30 years, circling ever tighter around a superdense core of deranged loathing, sucking bystanders into its gravitational tug and warping the orbits of distant politicians, until it exploded in a supernova of crazy in the election of 1964. (The remnants, of course, later coalesced into Planet Reagan.)


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:26 PM
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The president of the US is not white a Democrat.

Fixed that for you.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:28 PM
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Nah, the not white problem is part of it. They fear that their country and their culture is being taken away by people who don't understand, respect, or care about them. Clinton was bad enough but at least spoke plausible Bubba. Obama, not so much.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:31 PM
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All they need is the air that they breathe and to love you their hatred of evil bogey men.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:31 PM
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But I don't know whether this stuff builds or fades out

Given that angry people seem to be increasingly turning up at town-hall meetings with weapons, I'd say that the lunatic fringe is in a building rather than fading phase.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 2:31 PM
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This is a continuation of the McCain/Palin rallies, isn't it? Is it down from that? How many times can people make new t-shirts and signs before they think that maybe they'll skip the next event and spend the evening at home?

I asked about historical instances of demagoguery over at EotAW back when the McCain/Palin rallies were getting all that attention on Youtube, but they told me that historians don't study useful things.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 3:04 PM
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In my optimistic moments, I believe that Obama has this figured out, and he's doing a rope-a-dope all through August....

When a politician's defenders start running the rope-a-dope roll through the player piano, that politician is about to lose something.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 3:17 PM
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350:I asked about historical instances of demagoguery over at EotAW

Demagogue

Signer may not be a historian, I think he is International Relations or Political Science. He discusses Aristotle, Strauss, Arendt. And the book focuses more on current demagogues like Chavez, tho it does look at the past like Huey Long. And Signer is a squishy centrist, part of the Anne-Marie Slaughter crowd.

But it's a very good book.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:09 PM
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340 How long can they make signs and t-shirts and attend rallies? What sustains them? Is it source-based, does it need constant inputs like rage from talk shows?

This from "I can hold a grudge forever and would have to actively work to stop being angry" Megan?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:15 PM
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No offense intended, of course, I just would have thought there behavior was more comprehensible to you than to me.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:17 PM
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'their'. Wow.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:17 PM
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Requested from the library, Bob. Thanks.

Heh. But that is, like, personal. I can't maintain that kind of energy over something that the radio told me was an outrage.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:29 PM
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The political is personal, Megan.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:38 PM
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DIANE FEINSTEIN IS FUCKING MY EX!!!


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:42 PM
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Really?

Maybe you can get me an apt at her swank house to talk about health care.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:46 PM
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Arlo Guthrie singing Can't Help Falling in Love is folk music.

The introduction he gives in that clip is fantastic.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:48 PM
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Never! I cut them out of my life when I learned.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 4:51 PM
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361: You mean you didn't even consider this option?


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-11-09 6:41 PM
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Does it require other fuels, like having authority figures respond to them?

Yes, to a large extent. The Ulster Unionist brand of crazy - that is the organised culture of intimidating Catholics and wearing silly clothes on marches - has lasted generations because for generations it was actively supported by the Tory Party. Now that the Tory Party no longer gives a shit, they're feeling the squeeze and having to compromise (although the BNP is getting stuck in there).

What worries me about the current round of crazies in America is that as long as it's profitable, in the bottom line sense, for Rupert Murdoch and his heirs to encourage it in order to keep their viewing figures, they probably will. And let's face it, feedback on Fox News is more immediately rewarding than feedback from some dim bulb in Washington.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 1:02 AM
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The thread has moved on, but I want both teo and Stanley to know I read both their blogs. I follow AWB's link to teo, teo's link to Stanley, Stanley to heebie, and from heebie's almost anywhere!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 5:44 PM
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The thread has moved on, but I want both teo and Stanley to know I read both their blogs.

Hmmph, I don't read your blog either.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 5:51 PM
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She doesn't read your blog, she listens to it.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 5:53 PM
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One is supposed to read before one listens.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 6:02 PM
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YOUR READING/LISTENING OPPOSITION UNDERMINES ITSELF


Posted by: OPINIONATED DERRIDA | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 6:14 PM
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Oh, go hang it in your ear.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-12-09 6:18 PM
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Hmmph, I don't read your blog either.

B-b-but... Stanley and Teo were directly lamenting that people don't read their blogs!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-13-09 10:51 AM
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B-b-but... Stanley and Teo were directly lamenting that people don't read their blogs!

I'm sorry; I was just teasing. I was trying for light snark, realized it didn't work, but didn't feel like it made sense to amend my own comment at the end of a dead thread.

On the other hand 367 is funny, so I don't feel bad.

I did link to my blog in this thread, but mostly I responded that way because I had just been thinking about the fact that my blog very much feels like an exercise at this point (one that is still interesting to me, despite the fact that, of course, it is similar to most blogs in being utter drivel). I have enough invested to feel a sense of obligation, but not enough to feel a sense of accomplishment.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-13-09 12:08 PM
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I'd say there's an awfully tenuous connection between blogging and 'sense of accomplishment'. For me it was always putting the argument somewhere so I could stop thinking about it, or interacting with friends.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-13-09 12:14 PM
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Maddeningly, while I never felt much of a sense of accomplishment when I was blogging more, I now feel guilty about not blogging enough. It's amazing what I can manage to feel guilty about.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-13-09 12:16 PM
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For me it was always putting the argument somewhere so I could stop thinking about it, or interacting with friends.

Well, then, I would say, I'm not convinced that the blog is, at this point, a more productive way to think through the issues I'm interested in than just talking with friends.

On the third hand, the conversation in this thread is a good example of what's nice about having a blog. It was fun to be able to look at a post from last year and find a number of good quotations that I had forgotten.

I do think that the virtue of a blog is that it accumulates. The other reason I do it is because I do want to force myself to practice writing about music. The times when I am trying to say something insightful is the part of the blog that both feels like work and does generate a sense of accomplishment if I like what I've written.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-13-09 12:28 PM
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